Jihad Watch has lately been visited by another in a long series of provocateurs whose mission seems to be to tie up commenters in irrelevancies and red herrings. Jihad Watch Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald has a few remarks on this subject:
Many people come to Jihadwatch to read items garnered from the world’s press, television, satellite channels, about that most misreported, and underreported, of matters: those aspects of the ideology of Islam which make it a menace and a threat to all non-Muslims. Pieties about the “three abrahamic faiths” and the supposed benign links between the “three great monotheisms” obscure the fact that Islam is, in large part, a geopolitical program. The word “religion” tends to automatically confer a degree of respect, and sympathy, and to foster a continued, and dangerous, unwariness, in the minds of adherents of other religions.It is this website that, along with others, brings together articles from disparate sources, that show how the impulse toward Jihad is demonstrated throughout the world, in both the dar al-Islam (the lands where Islam rules, and Muslims predominate) and in dar al-harb, the lands where Infidels remain, as yet unsubjugated). It further offers examples of what may be called “dhimmitude,” that is an attitude of abasement and appeasement, that in Muslim states was the lot of all non-Muslims (those that remained alive), but which can be observed, fascinatingly, in countries still under Infidel control, but where some Infidels, out of ignorance, sentimentality, or more sinister impulses, including hostility toward their own societies and countries, manage to display, even when not forced to, that same attitude of supine compliance with Muslim demands, and Muslim views, that are such an unattractive feature, for example, of the upper reaches of the E.U. bureaucracy. What began as a venal attempt to curry favor, so as to be able to “recycle petrodollars,” has become a habit of mind. Western media, used to doing the Arab bidding in their presentation of the Arab Jihad against Israel, have extended that behavior in their coverage – or non-coverage – of Islamic behavior directed at targets other than Israel.
This site bring informations about both Jihad and Dhimmitude. Simply by presenting varied items of news, and laying bare, in the occasional accompanying commentary, the ways in which dhimmitude can be expressed, and furthermore, the ways in which Jihad remains the central, most persistent and significant aspect of Islam, one which has to be thoroughly understood and that understanding assimilated – given the failure of so many to undertake the most elementary study of Islam and of Muslim history themselves, content rather to mouth platitudes, if no longer about “peace” and “tolerance,” then new platitudes about the need for a “dialogue of civilizations” that is simply the old nonsense and apologetics in new garb.
In addition, those who blog at each thread often supplement, with their own analyses or other links, or pasted-in quotations, some of them quite apposite in what they find in obscure places, often eke out, in amazing ways, the raw news items.
Manners maketh man. Polite posters, what might be called coquettishly, or etiquettishly, Emily-Post-ers, try to keep to the matter at hand, as best they can. They derive profit and pleasure from the observations of others, and try in turn to offer profit and pleasure. One hopes that those who do not visit will, in the future, by googling, wander through the cyber-archives which do not date and ought to be consulted – paper-writing students, please note -- along with the day’s fresh offerings. It is a good way to learn about Qur’an and Hadith and Sira, to find out what Taqiyya is and to be shown examples of such Taqiyya in practice. It is a good way to learn about Muhammad’s own behavior (the execution of the Bani Qurayza, the attack on the Khaybar Oasis, etc.), and about his significance, therefore, as the “perfect man” and permanent model to be emulated, through time and space.
One discovers here repeated mention of scholars of dhimmitude, such as the pioneering Bat Ye’or, about such articulate ex-Muslims as Ibn Warraq, about such websites as www.secularislam.org, and www.faithfreedom.org, and www.dhimmitude.org and www.nojihad.com. The United States, one is constantly reminded, is not the only Infidel target, but merely the most powerful and resolute among those targets. One is reminded that Christians and Jews are not the only non-Muslims who must be defeated and subjugated; worse fates are to be meted out, at least theoretically, to Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Confucians, and of course all atheists and agnostics.
One learns of the emphasis in Islam on the collective, and the severe limits placed on individual autonomy, and especially on freedom of conscience and belief. One learns that for a good Muslim, loyalty can never be offered the Infidel nation-state; that is a logical impossibility; it can only be offered to fellow Muslims, to the umma al-islamiyya. Some Muslims may choose to ignore this requirement; they are being, from the Muslim point of view, bad Muslims. From the Infidel point of view, they are less troubling.
Visitors to this site know that Jihad-conquest exists independently of any particular foreign policy or behavior. It exists independently of where Muslims live, or how much money they have, or how much education they have, or the degree of their exposure to the Western world. It exists independently of the degree of despotism they experience in the Muslim countries, or the degree of material and other success they find in the Infidel lands. For it is a matter of ideology – of what is contained in Qur’an, Hadith, and Sira, which is to say, the entire belief-system of Islam.
It is here, at this website, that one learns about the many crushing burdens – economic, political, social – which, under the Sharia, are to be imposed on all dhimmis, a word which refers to those Infidels (chiefly Christians and Jews) who, though may be permitted to live, and not forced to immediately convert, are made subject to a regime of such enforced and permanent humiliation, degradation, and insecurity that vast areas of the Middle East and North Africa, once entirely populated by non-Muslims, have now become almost entirely Muslim. The same is true for large areas of black Africa, and in Asia – the numbers of Muslims rises, and the non-Muslims slowly, under oppression soft or hard, if not killed or exiled, decrease inexorably in numbers.
Why is it so important to understand dhimmitude? It is potentially the future for much of the Western world, beginning with Europe. One has to awaken first oneself, and then others, from this deep sleep of unreason. The canonical texts of Islam are fixed forever. They do not change. They are not subject to interpretation, for the “gates of ijtihad” (interpretation) closed a thousand years ago. The publicized efforts of some Bright Young Muslim Things who tell us that they can take care of all that, they’ll do all the necessary re-interpreting, merely prolong the complacence, and delay the right reckoning.
A great deal of information can be derived from the daily mental bread, the panem quotidianum, that is offered up, every morning, by some early-rising bakers at Jihadwatch. One hopes that more and more visitors will come, to discover that the apologetics in which so many indulge in the so-called major media, need not be parroted, nor accepted, and can be made subject to withering cross examination by Robert Spencer, and by others who, self-deputized to help the marshal with the gang that just rode into town, decided -- even now, while many terrified townsfolk still hide behind their doors – to awkwardly put on their badges, and lend a hand.
This whole matter is neither elementary particle physics, nor classical Greek prosody. It requires only that texts be understood, that trustworthy scholars be discovered and read, that the rhetorical tricks of apologists for Islam be analyzed and understood. It requires that bowdlerized versions of the Qur’an be mocked, that the inconsistencies within the Qur’an be recognized, and the way that Muslims themselves resolve those inconsistencies be clearly understood.
No one who comes repeatedly to Jihadwatch will suffer any of that confusion and mental désarroi that so many suffer from, and which derive from the failure of the press, of our leaders, of all those whose duty it is to instruct us, to forthrightly discuss Islam.
That is what Jihadwatch is for. That is what it attempts to do. That is its value.
It is not meant for people to be inveigled into trading insults with what are called “Trolls” – that is, those who appear at various threads only in order to distract, to waste precious time (and space on the thread), to bring out the silliest in everyone. Why collaborate with those who do not wish this site well? Whether hater of America, or anti-Semite, or fanatical Jihadist, the troll dangles the tempting bait of his, or her, own unhinged personality before would-be posters. It would be better not to take that bait.
But this distracts attention from other, more serious, matters. There is no real way to answer such people. Were you to pass on the street someone ranting similar stuff, the spittle streaming from the sides of his mouth and his eyes gleaming, would you not quicken your step, and simply leave him to his rant? Why should cyberspace be any different? It is flatly untrue that everyone possesses some core of logic, some ability to reason things out, to consider evidence presented by others. Evidence, logic, and so on have no meaning for such people. Either they are captives of a Total Explanation of the Universe, or they have, in order to make sense of the universe, mentally enslaved themselves to some Total Explanation that is their own creation. In their fantasy world, they keep rounding up the usual scapegoats as suspects, and there is no need for them to conduct a trial in the courthouse of their own minds: those scapegoats are always guilty as charged – America, the West, “the Jews,” etc.. It is silly to believe that all mankind shares a certain good sense, a shared residue of common humanity. All God’s chillum, the Family of Man, that sort of sentimental thing. It doesn’t and we don’t.
Those who are unhinged, and who enjoy playing trolls -- these trolling players, or strolling players, strutting their very poor stuff upon their own miserable stage -- need not occupy any of us at this website, whether we are groundlings or sitting with the gods. These are outpatients from the Laughing Academy. It is impolite for sane people to stare; they should walk briskly by, and quicken their step.
Thank you sir. And everyone, please take note: another troll just visited the thread immediately following this one. Avert your eyes; walk faster!
I'm glad I can out drink you Hugh, because I'll damn sure never out write you.......What a nice job.
...seems our guys at JW are quick on the draw :P Our troll has bit the dust. Naseem, you have a problem: seems so far you are the Only rational speaker for islam on this site. Altho some may disagree...
Always good advice.
Trolls just want attention - breaking a Clue Bat over their heads won't knock any sense into them.
Thanks Hugh
I stopped arguing with them. Like "Bar" or "bar" said whenever you refute them they just start another unrelated argument.
I bet they don't even read what they copy and paste either.
They don't even know about Islam as much as the people here even. Its really funny when you have to correct and tell them the simple things about their Islam back to them.
Someone was baiting me a few minutes ago at the thread
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004695.php#comments
The name of the poster was "F--- u amreicans". The messages he posted are gone now but man what a toll.
Bravo Hugh! Well said as usual. We shall ignore Trolls in future no matter how provocative they are.
I understand why people get into the endless arguments with the trolls, they are SO maddening. But as Hugh says, you can never penetrate their thick skulls with the truth. If in the future any of us responds to a troll someone with a cooler head needs to remind us of the agreement we are making here... DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.
I was hoping we would get a dissuasive remark from Hugh or Robert about the endless scripture references, pointless theological debates, and religious posturing of some here.
Surely it is apparent even to the amateur evangelists among us that this behavior does nothing but cloud the issue and promote troll-like behavior in believers of the opposite persuasion.
At the very least, a word about the inappropriateness of using JihadWatch for proselytization by any faith would be appreciated by many I'm sure.
Otherwise, great post Hugh.
f.g.
But I Want attion and some food I do love my short skirts and have great leggs!!
I feel bad I missed the Fun or the Mess which ever??
Hugh Glad that You can write so well to put this as it is this is a WAR against all humans who are non-mulsum and even some mulsums now to find those with us and those against us??
I know most here think I am little crazy that is okay sometimes that is what you need!!
Just real glad that you let me play!!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO VICTORY TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM OPEN THE WORLDS EYES TO THEIR EVIL GIVE THE WORLD COURAGE TO STAND AND FIGHT AGAINST THIS EVIL AMEN
PS
Was doing some translating a little slow with French the English site had been lost in outerspace??
“troll dangles the tempting bait “
“It is impolite for sane people to stare; they should walk briskly by, and quicken their step.”
My sincere apologies to all, I am embarrassment for so easily taking the bait.
The first 3 paragraphs alone got to the essence of why this site is so valuable. And reiteration is important. It takes discipline to keep the focus on the main points – points the general public has a hard time facing (for the reasons Hugh says.) Bravo.
Hugh, great post and great to see how the site's developing. With you on board and now Ibn Warraq, this is turnin into a movement. We could do with Ali Sina too. Perhaps Charles Johnson if we can bring him in.
Just one aspect I'd like to draw attention to: the use of humour and ridicule. Hugh, you're fantastic at this. And it's something that all totalitarian cults, communism, facism, and Islamofacism, hate and fear.
Here's a really telling comment in the Telegraph from Mark Steyn:
'If Adolf Hitler were to return from wherever he is right now, what would he be most steamed about? That in some countries there are laws banning Nazi symbols and making Holocaust denial a crime? No, that wouldn't bother him: that would testify to the force and endurance of his ideas - that 60 years on they're still so potent the state has to suppress them.
What would bug him the most is that on Broadway and in the West End Mel Brooks is peddling Nazi shtick in The Producers and audiences are howling with laughter. I don't know what kick Prince Harry gets out of his Nazi gear, but once long ago I was obliged for an historical scene to wear an SS uniform and I've never felt so screamingly camp as when mincing around doing that little flip-of-the-wrist mini-Heil thing.
One reason why the English-speaking democracies were just about the only advanced nations not to fall for Nazism or Fascism is that they simply found it too ridiculous. Bertie Wooster's famous riposte to the Mosleyesque Sir Roderick Spode could speak for the entire anglosphere: "The trouble with you, Spode, is that just because you have succeeded in inducing a handful of half-wits to disfigure the London scene by going about in black shorts, you think you're someone. You hear them shouting, 'Heil, Spode!' and you imagine it is the Voice of the People..."
Let's hope this robust attitude prevails with the Islamofacists as it did with the Nazis.
Hugh-
You're wrong!
It says definitively and conclusively in Quran Sura 98.6; ("The Persimmon's Navel"), that there are NO such things as "trolls"!
'Djinns', yes!
'Stoned Satans', yes!
But Trolls, no!
However, the Old Testament is full of trolls! Check out this link:
https://www.thebibleisChockFullofTrolls.org
HAH! There! SEE!
And you call yourself a Christian! Read John 54-40 (hike!) or Ezekial 22(catch!)!
Then, answer me honestly! Why did the American Indians, the 'lost tribe of Israel', not invent the light bulb! Jews, that's why!
And what about the Mormons! Did their Lake have Salt in it when they first arrived, or did Jews DUMP IT IN- as their covered wagons passed by! Got you there!
Typical Neo-Nazi trinitarian fundamentalist propaganda!
I will now append 6,ooo lines of cut-and-paste quotes to prove that:
a) Jihad is a REALLY a flavor of marzipan;
b) Osama Bin Laden IS actually Mario Cuomo;
and:
c) the World Trade Center Towers are STILL THERE (disguised by C.I.A./Yuri Geller nano-technology mirrors to just look like empty space)!
And that goes DOUBLE for all of you running-dog-lackeys-of-the-Zionist-colonialist-imperialist-conspiracy who follow this site also!
Have a nice day.
Great article as usual Hugh. You right good! I completely agree that restraint is needed with these trolls. On FFI last year some IslamoBozo spent around 24 pages on one thread arguing nonsense with people whom I'm ashamed to admit included me. And he never stopped bragging about the length of the thread.
So I stopped. No more brawling, just the odd jab. I've cut down to 1 mocking remark per moron, and 2 on weekends.
I'm also a believer that humor is something allfascists fear. Reminds me of an old Mel Brooks movie where Mel played a 40's stage actor whose production included a scene where he was dressed as Adolf, singing a musical number around a map of Europe. He'd be singing, "I just want Peace, just Peace..." (starts tearing off countries)... " A Peace of Poland, a Peace of Austria..."
Uhh-huh.
Cornholio-
Mel Brooks was doing a pale remake of a far better (actual Nazi-period film) starring Jack Benny -in his only good film role. Something with a Shakespeare line for a title. ("To Be or Not to Be" or something like that.) With Carole Lombard.
A classic!
Of course, not being as modest as Austrian Adolf, Mecca Mohammad wants the whole hog.
No mere peace/piece for him. Or his sycophants.
Hugh,
Good Article. I have to say Hugh that I like you.. I really do. But dammit man you are long in the tooth. Whew! I mean we're talking cigarette break halfway through your post! But you're a crowd favorite here and I'm not one to piss into a tide. So..
Regards,
Mahdi
I was hoping we would get a dissuasive remark from Hugh or Robert about the endless scripture references, pointless theological debates, and religious posturing of some here.
Posted by: f.g. at January 18, 2005 04:45 PM
This a could not agree more on
Yes I am a troll. But I am an anti-Islamic troll, so can I not be down-graded to "naughty little goblin" status?
Today I have posted a link to nude photos of that Jihadist, Minnie Rider, and I have called the CIA a bunch of incompetents. This was very trollish behaviour.
Just ignore me. I have saliva all over my shirt (and a host of other bodily fluids) and gosh, I have not even bathed in six weeks.
As for being irrelevant at times - well, all I can say in my defence is, here's a photo of some Mongolian cheese:
http://www.hansrossel.com/fotos/fotografie/mongolie/mg_d4361.htm
Anyway. This troll says Jihad Watch rocks! May you go from strength to strength. Love and respect to you all.
The troll comes from beneath the bridge and scratches his green wart-infested head...
The article before this one ("Or maybe you are an arm of the establishment that creates fictional characters like osama bin laden etc.") draws attention to an Email from a disruptive fruitcake, which was given great prominence, and the "comments" section is simply an open invitation to have a go at the aforementioned disruptive fruitcake.
Now this article basically says: don't pay any attention or give prominence to disruptive fruitcakes.
Oh well, never mind, here's something about frogs and ducks in Paraguay:
http://www.ramsar.org/wwd98_paraguay.htm
Nathan
There is a very big difference between christians and muslims
Except the muslim books states very clearly go out and kill all non-believers,so a muslim is true to his book.
Where-as the christian book states also very clearly thou shalt not kill.I only have to think about the Americas,and christianity does not leave a good taste in my mouth.
I am not a christian,or a believer of any other faith,but that does not stop me from trying to follow the basics of the Bible.
To me there is no greater faith than to have faith in one-self.And the bible along with a lot of other books are but a stepping stone to achieve this goal.
You do not have to be a follower of religion to know what is good and what is evil
May-be why so many people around the world are closing there eyes to the islamic problem is they are so sick of all the ranting in the past from so many different christian organizations,that they do not want to hear any more.
I believe Glandaff and Frodo are more relevant than God or Jesus in this fight
Than went out to fight the forces of evil and they took what help they could get even from tradition foes,they did not put themselves any higher than any body else,and they certian did not try to convert to there way
They resolved their differences and went united to battle the evil
You're right of course, as always, but you must understand that some of us aren't as disciplined and emotionally mature as you and Mr. Spencer. Crusadewatcher was especially infuriating to me although I know it's a waste of time to argue with a zombie. It's so difficult not to respond to blatant lies and misrepresentations,which are always stated as absolute truths by these mendacious agitators. I'm afraid that if nobody refutes their malicious lies, someone who doesn't know any better might read them and think they're true. But I shall refrain in the future.
Someone once asked me what was the most basic human right in a democratic society.
i got the wrong answer, because there is one humanright that is so basic that many of us fail to recognise it.
It is the right to LIFE.
every child born is entitled to live regardless of colour or creed or RELIGION.
THe first thing Nazism achieved was the suppression of that basic right. Hitler and his acolytes created a world in which not all infants were born with the right to live.
Is this what the catholic church meant by "original sin"- that a child could be born sinful before he had even opened his eyes, simply because he was born a Jew?
NO. to the Catholic church a jewish Child could be cleansed by conversion to catholicism.
But to the NAZIS the Jews could not be cleansed by conversion and were not elligible to the right of life.
Most of us , on whom democracy has bestowed the unalienable right to life find it difficult to imagine life as hated and despised dhimmy under Islam or as an untermensch under Hitler's reich.
And yet the plight of a concentration camp inmate living in the surreal world where are no basic laws of decency existed, is not very different to the plight of infidels living in ghettoes , without rights under Islam.
But we know that Hitler could not have implemented his exterminationist policies, policies which he put above all else (including winning the was) without the help of hundreds of thousands of willing participants both German and NON germans.
Today there are new generations of such helpers who also see nothing wrong with denying the right to life to Jews and the State of Israel.
This time their leader is not Adolf Hitler but the corrupt arab states of the middle east.
Corrupt states like Egypt, Iran Syria and Jordan who play by the same rules as Adolf Hitler, simply because they know it is a card that has always worked in the Judeophobic countries of Europe.
BUt America is very different. America was not involved in the rounding up of millions of minorities who "had no right to Life" to be despatched to humilition and slaughter. America hold its head high and they hate her for it!
The honorable guilt felt by so many europeans after WW2 heralded the birth of a new age of tolerance and as conscience would have it, a welcoming to outsiders as a form of atonement for the sins of the past.
Who benefited most from this liberalism and tolerance and softening of the hard line fascism? It was of course Islamic immigration. The very countries who had never softened their politics took advantage at what they saw as the stupidity of the Europeans. They worked the guilt of europe to the hilt for the advancement of Islam on the world stage.
In the same way that they ignored Adolf hitler when he ranted that he would cleanse Germany of Jews, they ignored Boumedienne when he boasted that the wombs of Islamic women would achieve in europe what generations of Jihadist warriors had failed to bring about.
The confrontation with Islam is of course a thousand times more subtle and complex that the confrontation with Nazi Ideology. It is not a war that last 5 or ten years, it is a war which will continue for as long as the human race is in existence. It is a war that stops and starts, in which the stops are as dangerous as the starts as during the stops we forget the past and the fascist ideology of islam.
BUT UNLESS YOU WANT TO LIVE WITH THE SAME RIGHTS AS A CONCENTRATION CAMP INMATE, you had better realise that we are and have always been at war with islam.
Someone once said;
Ignorance is dangerous but ENFORCED ignorance is Suicidal.
Timbo
A Gold [T]ROLLEX to You for all your past comments
Please do stop the Anti-Jihad Trollcraft,you are one of the precious trolls that I would not like to turn to stone.
I like your self have been exposed as a troll,
We just have to show a little trollerance.
It seems that there is a fanatical group developing within JW that cannot accept that there are some who have views that are not the same as there own.
Just remember there are good muslims and bad ones,the same goes for christians and trolls
Two Headed Tribute
A Troll stood by sadly for hours
Near where'd been two shiny bright towers
With hot tears in his eye
He could not understand why
Yet he hurt with the world's greatest powers.
Trolls come from lands far and near
Through legends and myth they appear
But right now, Today!
To the GREAT USA
They wish comfort and love without fear!
Martin Calderwood (Utah/USA)
Children, children, calm down now. Hugh is doing the oldest trick in the book, which is to demonise someone who doesn't agree with his views in order not to have to engage in meangingful discussion. That's fine. It shows the general level of intellect encouraged here.
Everyone here has said that all religions (and idealogies) have fanatics. Where this website goes off the handle is in encouraging people here to hate and fear 1 billion of the world's population. But if feeling hatred is what you need to have some meaning in your life, feel free.
A great deal of information can be derived from the daily mental bread, the panem quotidianum, that is offered up, every morning, by some early-rising bakers at Jihadwatch. One hopes that more and more visitors will come, to discover that the apologetics in which so many indulge in the so-called major media, need not be parroted, nor accepted, and can be made subject to withering cross examination by Robert Spencer, and by others who, self-deputized to help the marshal with the gang that just rode into town, decided -- even now, while many terrified townsfolk still hide behind their doors – to awkwardly put on their badges, and lend a hand.
OK so I have to go and do it:
Whitequeen we know what you are now take your ball and go home.
sorry bout that Hugh
Nathan,
You mistakenly assume I know nothing about religion because I think that Jihad Watch isn’t the place to debate religion. You are incorrect about my knowledge of religion and Christianity in particular.
Also, I don’t see how you derived that I was “trying to slander Christianity and Judaism” by asking that “the endless scripture references, pointless theological debates, and religious posturing of some here” be discouraged, although I see certainly see why that has offended you.
f.g.
That last sentence should have read:
...although I can certainly see why that has offended you.
No coffee yet.
f.g.
Whitequeen:
I'm sure you're one who knows quite a lot about old tricks (named John, no doubt).
Quote from Alice in Wonderland below courtesy of one of Hugh's posts on DhimmiWatch:
"I can believe six impossible things before breakfast" the White Queen tells Alice.
If you are what you claim to be (partly Jewish convert to Islam), you're also good at buying into a load of crap. The fact that officially, Muslims number about a billion or more of the world's population and its apparent rapid spread mean squat. There's no great honour in being part of a "lowest common denominator" equation.
BUT UNLESS YOU WANT TO LIVE WITH THE SAME RIGHTS AS A CONCENTRATION CAMP INMATE, you had better realise that we are and have always been at war with islam.
Someone once said;
Ignorance is dangerous but ENFORCED ignorance is Suicidal.
Posted by: george at January 19, 2005 01:29 AM
2 Gold Stars for You today!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to Victory to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen
PS
Searching for a Dity Bomb in Bostan today??