The King should apologize to this as soon as international Islamic ulama apologizes to Middle Eastern Christians for conquering their lands and forcing dhimmi status upon them. And will the Moors in turn apologize to the King for conquering Spain 700 years before they were expelled?
"King snubs Moroccan plea for apology," from The Telegraph, with thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist:
Descendants of the Moors expelled from Spain 500 years ago failed to receive an apology from King Juan Carlos as he toured Morocco yesterday.Residents of Tetouan, many of whose ancestors were driven from the Iberian peninsula by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, said an opportunity had been lost to heal an historic wound, which has become all the more sensitive in recent years.
Osama bin Laden has often talked of the tragedy of the loss of al-Andalus, the Moorish region of Spain. The terrorists who attacked Madrid last year, killing 192 people and wounding 1,900, spoke of Spain with the same sense of historic vengeance. Three million Muslims were expelled in 1501.
The king, who is on his first state visit to Morocco since 1979, cancelled his visit to Tetouan at the last minute. The official reason was lack of time but unofficially it appeared that sensitivities had arisen because Tetouan was the old Spanish colonial capital.
King Juan Carlos said in a speech earlier this week that the legacy of an Arab and Andalusian heritage was a key to "the positive image'' in Spain of "Arabic culture and Islam''.
The king has apologised for the expulsion of Jews from Spain in 1492, and the descendants of the expelled Moors say he owes Muslims the same respect.
Being expected to apologize for Islamic conquest, murderous occupation and cultural piracy only ending by force of arms 700 years later is delusional. But no matter, Spain is starting to show signs that it is cracking under the barrage of propaganda and multiculturism.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/002732.php
Perhaps His Catholic Majesty was reminded of his predecessors Alfonso VI, Ferdinand & Isabella. Perhaps he was also thinking of the exploits of Pelayo and the miracle of Clavijo. Perhaps he carries in his head the iconic image of Santiago Matamoros (St. James, the Moor Slayer), his kingdom's patron saint. Perhaps he was thinking about the 700 years of constant warfare and oppression that his people endured at the hands of the Muslim invaders and their brutal occupation. Perhaps he was thinking of the glorious day in 1492 when the last Muslim despot was booted off the Iberian Peninsula.
Andrew is exactly right. It was a case of conquest ended only 700 years afterward and that only by force of arms. It is patently ridiculous and in all probability a religio-political ploy to demand such a ludicrous apology. Strictly speaking, any Spanish apology should come only after the Moroccan apology. Perhaps, say, 700 years later, by my reckoning.
The problem, as I've said before, is the fundamental appreciation of forgiveness in Christian culture. A fine perspective, don't mistake me here. But it would seem that islamic culture inherently understands this aspect of Judeo-Christian culture as well, and is not adverse to using it. Or perhaps merely ignorant of the hypocritical double standard? (I've seen that before, many, many times.) In any event, I think my apology were I King Carlos would have been something like:
"I'm sorry my people rose up and fought back against your unwarranted, aggressive invasion, and ultimately beat you so badly that we were able to kick you off the continent.
I'm sorry that despite your best efforts to suppress and oppress my culture INSIDE OUR OWN BORDERS and the thousands and thousands of Muslim recruits pouring into my nation for over 700 years, that you were in the end so inept that you were utterly crushed by a smaller, underarmed nation.
Most of all, I'm sorry that you will never truly understand the concept of sarcasm, nor the hypocrisy you generate in asking us, again ultimately speaking, to apologize for being invaded and making the fool mistake of not properly capitulating. I might note that our ultimate triumph over your ignorance came in perfect alignment with the most liberal interpretation of your Quran's Sura 9, the irony of which I'm sure you can't appreciate.
In conclusion, I would like to ask you all to sod off.
Thankyou."
At which point, insulted beyond recovery in the name of my people, I would promptly end the tour and return to my native, undiminished Spain.
Geoff
My apologies; seems he did in fact avoid the degenerate dunghill known colloquially as "Tetouan", though of course his sensitivities (as, admittedly, is proper) were more likely the reason. Still, I prefer to think he'd decided not to give the mental and moral degenerates of Tetouan (I hear they just switched to 24-hour time and proper sanitation; good job, everyone!) the time of day.
Viva Espagna
Piss on Morocco. Your oranges suck. And no one eats dates, they're disgusting. Anyway, I hear they're packed with spider eggs and grasshopper bits. Who knew?
Geoff
I think the first apology that must be made to the residents of Tetouan is by the Moroccan Arabs themselves, as they subjected the indigenous Amazigh to centuries of cultural genocide.
What wonderful reasoning Islamic minds such as OBL employee: Al-Andalusa, which the Muslims temporarily usurped from the native population of the Iberian peninsula for a couple of centuries -- is rightfully and eternally the property of Islam & Co, while the Jews have no right to any part of the Middle East, the Jewish holy cities like Jerusalem, Safed, etc.. included.
Does Sharia also provide a statute of limitations on land ownership that excludes claims that are more than 1400 years old?
//sarcasm off.
Just say NO to dhimmitude.
I can't believe Rober said this.
I think Robert might be making the "moral equivalence" mistake that he so often see Muslims do.
What the Spanish Christians did and what the Muslim Moors did is not the same.
The Muslims Moors invaded and occupied Christian Spain and Oppressed them. After the Christians were liberated they deoprted the invaders back to Morocco.
No need to apologise for this. You only apologise if you did something worng.
It is only the Muslims that need to apologise for their jihad terror not just in Spain but everywhere.
Informed Christian,
I think what Robert is saying is that it's the Muslims who should be doing the apologizing; and that the king should definately not apologize, until the Muslims do -- which he knows will never happen.
My dear "Informed Christian":
Go, immediately, and find a Latin dictionary. Look up "reductio ad absurdum."
Then get back to me.
Cordially,
Robert Spencer
Info for the misinformed
Islam in Spain after the Reconquista
By Devin Stewart
Department of Middle Eastern Studies,
Emory UniversityOn January 2, 1942, the Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand and Isabela captured
Granada and dethroned the Nasrids, the last surviving Muslim monarchy in Iberia.
The fall of Granada was the culmination of the Reconquista (Reconquest), the Latin
kingdoms centuries-old struggle to end Muslims political hegemony on the
Peninsula. It can be said that the Reconquista began in the late eleventh century with
the recapture of Toledo, the traditional Visigoth capital in 1085. The twelfth century
witnessed nearly constant warfare, but the decisive victories were to be won in the
first half of the thirteenth century.
The Christians advanced along three main points: the Castilians in central Spain,
the Aragonese in Catalonia and Valencia in the east, and the Portuguese in the west.
In 1212, the defeat of the Muslim armies at the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa gave
the Latin kingdoms control of all of central Spain. What had traditionally been the
main Muslim capitals, Cordoba and Seville, were taken in 1236 and 1248. The
Treaty of Ja n in 1246 between Fernando III of Castile and the Nasrid ruler of
Granada gave the Muslims a rest for about two centuries, but hostilities resumed their
former hectic pace in the latter half of the fifteenth century, with Gibraltar falling in
1462. The alliance between the two great Christian kingdoms of Spain, Castile and
Aragon, symbolically sealed by the marriage of the Catholic Sovereigns,
Ferdinand and Isabela, spelled the end of Muslim rule in Iberia. A well-known
account has it that Isabela vowed she would wear the same clothes until the Muslims
were completely conquered.
In 1492, three or four years later, her wish came true, and she could finally change
her clothes! The Muslims no longer had a state of their own, and the political climate
in Spain was calling for an end to religious diversity. The phenomenon of Morisco
communities and their plight is a direct result of the Reconquista.
Ferdinand and Isabela s rule is famous not only for recapturing the Iberian
Peninsula, but for supporting Christopher Columbus voyage of discovery to the
New World. It also marked the beginning of the Inquisition. The Inquisition was a
network of tribunals organized by the Catholic Church in the Iberian Peninsula
intended to search out, identify, prosecute, punish, and correct heretics. The
Inquisition tended to focus its efforts on recent converts to Christianity from Judaism
and Islam. These new Christians were under constant scrutiny and suspicion of
maintaining the practices and beliefs of their former religions while outwardly
adhering to Christianity.The Inquisition was particularly strict on the Moriscos, the Muslims who
remained in the Iberian Peninsula under Christian rule after the Reconquista. The
term is somewhat ambiguous because it may refer on the one hand to sincere converts
from Islam to Christianity or on the other hand to crypto-Muslims, people who were
sincere in their Islamic faith but had been forced to convert and were obliged to
adhere in their daily lives to Christian practices. The suspect status of the Moriscos
and their Jewish counterparts may be seen in the practice of labeling them new
Christians to distinguish them from old Christians, who were presumably more
steadfast in their faith. Both groups were in danger of being denounced to the
Inquisition as heretics and consequently had to hide their true beliefs and religious
practices from outsiders. The term for Jews who remained in the Peninsula is
Marranos, literally Chestnuts.
Some of the Moriscos practiced taqiyya. Taqiyya is an Arabic word literally
meaning caution . It came to be used as a technical term in Islamic law meaning
dissimulation . It is a type of legal dispensation which allows the Muslim believer
to deny his or her faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts when in
danger of losing life, limb, or property. The Islamic principle became very important
in Spain in the course of the sixteen century, as the Muslims of Granada, Castile,
Aragon, Valencia, and Navarre were forced to convert to Christianity and then
became crypto-Muslims, practicing Islam only in secret. Below, you will read a
fatwa, or legal responsum, which a Muslim jurist in Algeria issued allowing Muslims
in Spain to make extensive use of taqiyya in order to maintain their faith despite the
strict restrictions placed on them by Christian authorities.
While these provisions were made to try to protect the Muslims who stayed
behind, the Reconquista produced a Morisco diaspora, as many Muslims, like the
Jews, were forced to choose between conversion and exile. Most of the expelled
Moriscos settled in North Africa, including modern Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia.
Certain cities in these regions, such as Fez in Morocco and Tlemecen in Algeria
maintain Andalusian traditions, particularly in music, dress, and cuisine. You can
still hear today what is called Granadan music in weddings all over Morocco, and
many of the songs still sung are reputed to be Andalusian poems.
The term Mudejar is used to refer to Muslims who lived under Christian rule but
enjoyed a special, protected status. They were free to practice their religion, but had
to remain loyal to the state and were subject to a number of restrictions, such as a
prohibition of the right to bear arms.Some Moriscos held out hope that the Ottoman rulers would save them from their
dire straits. The Ottoman Turks became a major power in the Middle East, the
Balkans, and the Mediterranean in the course of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries.
Their control extended from Algeria in the West to the Persian Gulf in the East. In
Europe they controlled what are now Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria,
Rumania, Yugoslavia, and Hungary for centuries. They advanced very far into
Europe and even besieged Vienna, the capital of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, in
1529 and 1683, both times unsuccessfully. In the Mediterranean they were engaged
in an ongoing struggle with the European powers, particularly the Spanish. The
towering Spanish literary figure, Cervantes, author of Don Quixote, lost an arm in a
naval battle against Ottoman forces.
After the Reconquista and the forced conversions of Muslims in the Iberian
Peninsula, the Moriscos looked to the Ottomans as their potential saviors, sending
them numbers of requests for aid and military intervention. This was particularly the
case after 1517, when the Ottoman armies overran the Mamluk Empire centered in
Egypt and became the focus of nearly all Moriscos pleas for help. In a translation
below, you will read a poem sent by the Moriscos of Granada to the Ottoman Sultan
Bayezid II (1481-1512) circa 1501 asking for him to intercede on their behalf.
Unfortunately for the Moriscos, the Ottomans already had their hands full fighting on
two fronts. In the Balkans, they were fighting against the Austro-Hungarian Empire
and Russia, and in the East, they were fighting against the Safavid Empire of Iran.
They did little to help their Muslim brothers in distress in Spain.
The descendents of the "Moriscos", the Muslim population of the Iberian Peninsula who left voluntarily Spain after their relevants towns were being retaken or were finally expelled "en masse" in 1609 for their proven collaboration with Ottomans and French in raiding Spain have arisen to the "apology fashion" after seeing the success the demand for apologies is having nowadays.
But our King was right not to offer apologies to the descendants of those who conquered, ruled (or misruled) Spain for centuries and were responsible for destroying our national unity, first achieved before their invasion.
If the Jews did deserve an apology, that was because they were truly Spaniards and have kept the memory of "Sefarad" for centuries, including the language and traditions, wherever they went lo live.
That didn't happen with the Moors. They either choose or were forced to live among their correligionists, and have never kept the same degree of identification with Spain as Sephardim Jews still have.
This is just another proof of how dangerous it is to play the "dhimmi" role with them. They do not reciprocate, nor do they consider they owe apologies for. "They can do no wrong".
However, I am not very optimistic about my country's policies those days. I find too much "understanding" of Muslims among many politicans and opinion leaders. The prospects, despite the real feelings of the-man (or woman)-in the street, are not very encouraging.
Shiva,
What you post, quoting Devin Stewart's book, is inaccurate.
The "Reconquista" began right immediately after the Muslim conquest, in 711. The tiny Christian realms of North Spain fought since the beginning to expand their territories and to freed themselves from the Muslim hegemony. The memory of the previous Visigothic Kingdom of Spain gave them their incentive to move southwards. The seizure of Toledo, much later, was simply the marking event of the "beginning of the end", which, in any case, took four more centuries to be achieved!
As for the Inquisition, they focused themselves with Protestants and Jews. Despite the well-deserved terrible reputation of the Inquisition, the fact remains that all along its existence in Spain it actually prosecuted many less people than in any other European country, especially France, where it was working since the 13th century and Central Europe, where the witch-hunt developed.
The Muslims were told to convert, but this measure was hardly enforced. The result being the tragic War of the Alpujarras, in the 1580s, a general insurrection; and the final expulsion of the Moriscos in 1609. In the meantime, it is true they did not receive much help from Istanbul. But they did receive a lot of help (that they enthusiastically reciprocated) from Algiers, Kenitra and elsewhere. Piracy in the Mediterranean against all the Spanish territories was endemic, as well as in the East Atlantic. The Ottomans (and the Regent of Algiers) where actively supported by their French allies. So it is easy to understand there was a very serious security threat for Spain those days.
The word "mudéjar", which describes a Muslim living under Christian rule in medieval Spain, stopped being used in the 16th and 17th centuries. It was replaced by "morisco".
There are other factual inaccuracies included, regarding the way things developed in the Christian side
Spanish diplomat
What you post, quoting Devin Stewart's book, is inaccurate.Yes if viewed from the catholic side
Any way what you state about the rest of europe is correct,and I think you would agree with me that europe was in such a state of chaos that this period was know as the Dark Age,and we could
have a very long OT debate going
But your King was right not to offer apologies to the descendants of those who conquered, ruled (or misruled) Spain for centuries and were responsible for destroying our national unity, first achieved before their invasion.
Sorry
Sorry for making you rich by purchasing your filthy oil
Sorry for filling your bellies with the fruit of our fertile soil
Sorry for modern medicine, which prolongs your worthless lives
Sorry for the internet and printing, which propagates your lies
Sorry for television, vomiting al-jazera into your front room
Sorry for your many children, brainwashed from the womb
Sorry for multiculturalism, and the knife at our throat
Sorry for our politicians, and their need to buy your vote
Sorry for the asylum given to your kith and kin
Sorry for the crusades – yes, we’re sorry they didn’t win.