What kind of grudge? What kind of vendetta? No word here. From the New York Post, with thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist:
January 25, 2005 -- Investigators probing the slaughter of a family of devout Egyptian Christians believe they may have been victims of a bloody vendetta that predates their immigration to the United States 10 years ago, The Post has learned."We're trying to develop their history right now," Hudson County Prosecutor Edward DeFazio said yesterday of the brutal quadruple slaying.
I want you to try to imagine how the major media might cover the following story.
A Muslim family of four, known for boldly proselytizing the Islamic faith in the shadow of where the World Trade Center stood before Sept. 11, 2001, is bound, gagged and murdered execution-style, throats slit, jewelry left behind
Joseph Farah
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42554
"We're trying to develop their history right now"
Develop? Or maybe you really mean: concoct, make up, fabricate, dream up, trump up ... a "history" so this gets swept under the carpet and the truth hidden from the public?
I don't like the way this case is going. Lots of people pointing in the other direction, looking away, making excuses, anything but facing facts. This is basically America's Van Gogh killing. Sweep this under the carpet and we can expect more. It'll empower them, embolden them, as all psychopaths are empowered and emboldened, until they are caught.
History is a big thing, Mr. Prosecutor. "Their" history might be less imortant than Egypt's history.
In a case like this, the police tend to look first at family members. When the family is wiped out, that tends to remove that theory from the investigation. Next, the police do a victimology profile, to see who might want to cause harm to the victims. Now, who would want to cause harm to a family of Egyptian Copts who emigrated to the US in 1997 to escape religious persecution at the hands of muslims?
According to the way the Hudson County police and prosecutors are handling this investigation, if you said Catholic nuns from an order of poverty, you'd be correct. /heavy sarcasm
A "ten-year-old" vendetta? So it began when Sylvia was 5 years old? And someone quietly waited until he came to this country, to renew the "vendetta"?
The chronology is off. The Muslims conquered Coptic Egypt more than 1200 years ago. The Copts, in their own land, had to begin to behave themselves, as defined in Islam (see, for the best modern compilation, Antoine Fattal, "Le statut legal des non-musulmans en pays d'Israel" -- better yet, why doesn't the DOJ pay for a meticulous translation?). America is not yet "pays d'Islam," but still dar al-Harb, the Land of War (for it is clear that Infidel America has no intention of rolling over as Europe has done). Muslims in Infidel lands are grandly willing to concede (see Tariq Ramadan, see all the relevant fatwas at Muslim websites) that they will observe only those laws, in the Infidel lands they have managed to settle in, that do not in any way contradict the law of Islam, or Shari'a).
Copts in this country, even if American citizens, were held to the same standards of obedience to Musim rules, and Muslim laws. The father, and Sylvia, apparently dared to believe that they were free citizens of a free country, no longer in thrall to Muslims. In this country people are taught they have certain inalienbable rights. Muslims are taught that non-Muslims have no inalienable rights; all their rights, all of them, come from what Muslims deign to allow them, and are always revocable if a single member of the particular dhimmi community fails to observe a single one of the requirements set down for all the mebers of that community.
The police, the F.B.I., the army have to be told, unpleasant as it may be for some of them (especially if there are Muslims on the force-- but they cannot be allowed to act as a permanent censor, preventing forever a real understanding of what the teachings, attitudes, atmospherics are all about -- for if the handful of Muslims in these organizations were, by their mere presence, able to prevent the entire security apparatus of this country of being properly informed, any (small) usefulness those Muslims would have would be far outweighed by this self-censoring effect). This has to be talked about, discussed, and means found to educate people, without any more inhibitions.
Members of local police forces, the army (and the citizen-army), should be told, not vaguely, but now, what Islam teaches, based on Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira. Begin with the idea of Taqiyya/Kitman, and Muhammad's "war is deception." Then go on with what Muslims are taught about Infidels, about Jihad, and about how those Infidels are to be treated upon a successful Jihad-conquest. They should be told what, over the past 1350 years, has happened -- what, after all, happened to the Copts of Egypt? To the Christians of Mesopotamia and Syria? To the Jews of Judea? To the Christian civilization and Berbers of North Africa? What happened in Hindustan? What happened in the one area conquered not by an invading army, but by slow infiltrtation (Hadarmi traders, then military colonies) in the East Indies (now Indonesia), where Hindus and Buddhists had lived? They need to know some history, for the long -- essentially endless -- war the Infidel peoples and polities are now in is not mainly a battlefield war, and immediate, battlefield responses are not evoked (save for the troops in Iraq, who are getting quite a taste of Muslim behavior, despite all the cheerleading from Wasshington about their intense desire to be "free" and to have "democracy" and -- we are supposed to somehow think -- this intense desire will lessen the Jihadist impulse, which is why we are told another $100 billion should be thrown into this quixotic and huge misallocation of resources).
Certain bullets have to be -- if not bitten, at least gnawed at. Bring in non-Muslim experts on Islam, recognizing at last that any presentation, by any Muslim, will always be an exercise in some form of dissimulation, will never quite tell the full truth about Islam. This may be a matter of wilful ignorance (someone who is a tepid Believer would prefer not to know everything that the true Believers know). It may be a matter of filial piety (my grandfather and grandmother were nice, pious people, and they didn't support terrorism, and besides, didn't the Muslims invent Indian algebra and Greek philosophy and the Italian Renaissance all by themselves, and ....). In this regard, one has to remind everyone that the Muhammad who was involved in the first World Trade Center bombing had previously served in the U.S. Army, where he had taught troops "all about Islam." And just how well and truthfully do you think he tried to train those troops, before going off to plot mass-murder of Infidels?
One expects, and demands more from those whose job it is to protect the population. A police captain told me a year ago that one member of his force ("the guy was a history buff") really seemed to know all about Islam ("he talked like you" he told me), and that this particular "history buff" had to be reprimanded, and told not to talk to the other policemen about Islam -- not, in other words, to share his knowledge. One has reason to believe that things have not improved everywhere since.
Look, this is not a case of nice Mrs. Khan visiting the third-graders to carefully tell them all about the wonders of Ramadan (postcards of mosques, a small prayer-rug, and above all those delicious desserts, mmmmm), whom the teacher Mrs. Rosenbaum is so pleased could be with us today, and yes, Caitlin, we are all going to taste the pastries but only after Mrs. Khan tells us all about the different kinds of iftar-dinners that so many different kinds of people share with their families...
Get real.
Tell the troops to pack their bags and come home, there are enough political hacks at home to make sure we hand the country over to the Muslims.
A "ten-year-old" vendetta? So it began when Sylvia was 5 years old? Posted by Hugh
And Monica was 8. So this supposed "vendetta" began before she was even born. This is a child murder. That little lass was found in the bathroom and I'm not the only JW reader that imagines her trying to lock herself in for safety.
With all the child safety concern there is these days everywhere in the English speaking world surely someone is taking notice of the murder of such a young child.
I think many people are jumping to all sorts of unwarranted conclusions over the police's behavior in this investigation. Police do not, nor should they, conduct crime investigations via the press. In virtually any crime they are very tight lipped until charges are filed. In fact, making precipitous charges would certainly imperil any future trial.
Frankly, I also prefer the press does not conduct a trial by speculation over this case or any other case. I'll admit it seems a remote possibility, but should the facts eventually point in a direction other than jihadists, such press coverage would be damaging to the cause of fighting the wahabis.
Patience. I say wait until the police develop the case and release their findings before wringing your hands over this one.
ambisinistral,
You state: "Police do not, nor should they, conduct crime investigations via the press." While it's true the police do not "conduct" an investigation through the press, the police are known to use the press to gather information. Look at child abductions, or sensational murders like Nicole Simpson, JonBenet Ramsey, or Laci Peterson. The police have been know to go so far as to issue BOLO alerts, trying to get information from the public. Heck, the police even use 'America's Most Wanted' to try to track down information and/or criminals. But not a peep from Hudson Country law enforcement. Yes, they are most likely scared. You know what? Too bad. That is the job for which they signed up, and now they should do their jobs. If the information about a local person of interest having skipped the country, then anyone helping that fugitive escape should be persecuted as well. Do you not see that islam is playing with us here? The muslim community has already expressed concerns about insensitivity to pentential anti-islam incidents, though the degree to which those copncerns have ben expressed is open to verification. Yet, once again, no assistance in tracking down the perpetrators. Just a resounding, overwhelming silence. These are not the actions of any group that beleives in freedom. These are the actions of the terrorist supporters, the moderate muslims.
There are several things that have not been reported in the news some of us are wondering about.
1. What are the Paltalk usernames of the victims? Without those aliases members of the paltalk community can't provide tips.
2. A quoted threat from Paltalk was published in the news. Has the person who made that threat been contacted and ruled out? If he can't be found what is his Paltalk alias? Perhaps he will come forward or other members of the paltalk community will help.
President Bush says his first priority is preventing terrorist attachs in the homeland. It appears nobody wants to walk down the hall to the bosses office and tell him there's been another one.
We need to use the Internet to keep the pressure on the authorities. The blogosphere brought down CBS news; it can hold the Jersey prosecutor's feet to the fire quite well.
I know Robert will never let it go; we need to convince others to follow that commitment.
Seams the Train wreak in Calf was intensual car left on the trak??
It was in the rich area of L.A.??
January 26, 2005
Train crash in Calf.??
KKK Senator Bird slams a Black woman??
HMMMM??
Bush Talked about how he thought the Iraqi People deserve FREEDOM and they[Iraqis] all can’t be savages??
Bush also talked about the coyotes on the Border and we are going to do something??
http://www.beecy.net/frank/
Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the people of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease. And for those to whom the Scripture Book has been given, and the believers, there should be no doubt. The unbelievers may say, ‘What does the Lord intend by this?’ The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases, and He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”
This can be broken by Yes it is the Army of the people of the Book who he has chosen to Free [USA] the Iraqi people as it says
He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”
Yes he has chosen the USA!!
TO FREE THE IRAQI PEOPLE FROM THE MONSTER saddam [FOUND IN A HOLE DON’T SHOOT I’M A YELLOW COWARD]
And let’s look at another part?
The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases,
Ubl,saddam,zawari,all who Kill and destroy mankind?
There will be no more warnings?
Earthquake in Iran kills 31,000 who harbors ubls[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] son and wife’s??
And now Locus in Egypt
NOW IF THAT IS NOT TELLING YOU ARE ON THE WRONG PATH NOTHING WILL??
Kazakhstan Blast in mine??
Islamic terrorist- killing Iraqis??
Earthquake in Algeria??
The typhoon in Philippines Remember they ran away from the Fight in Iraq??
http://www.onlypunjab.com/fullstory1104-insight-Pink+Locusts+from+North+Africa-status-15-newsID-503.html
Pink Locusts from North Africa Swarm Through Cairo
Publish Date : 11/18/2004 5:09:00 PM Source : Science and Technology News Onlypunjab.com
Swarms of pink locusts swept through the Egyptian capital on Wednesday, evoking the biblical description of the plagues which struck in the time of Moses.
The swarms of millions flew high above tall towers or swooped down onto treelined streets, where scared pedestrians stamped
on them or ran for cover.
The flying insects arrived from neighboring Libya after devouring the countryside in central and western Africa in past months.
YES I SAY ubl[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] is losing and trying to regain control??
What verses did he say in his rambling and to say about the people of the book??
The people of
the book didn’t lose their crops??
Now Earthquake of mulsum Islands of Indonesia?? 9.3 and afterwards mass killer waves that effect many countries?/
Who is coming to the aid of the people But the Red Cross and India to help the people and Israel and the USA and the Western countries!!
210,000, mulsum killed in Indonesia alone?? Whole mulsum towns gone?? And Churches still standing??
We are waiting for the mulsums to help other mulsums?? Or with the entire fund raising they do help people instead of making war??
And now more 6.2 earthquakes in Indonesia?? Because they have sent Islamic terrorist to terrorize the victims of the killer wave??
January 11, 2005 Philippines an 4.3 Earthquake ??
Maybe small there because the fight against Islamic Terrorist??
Was ubls[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] family in Indonesia we know they support Islamic Terrorist??
January 23 6.3 Earthquake in Indonesia??
SEAMS THE COPS IN N.J. ARE RUNNING SCARED??
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM OPEN THE WORLDS EYES TO THEIR EVIL GIVE THE WORLD COURAGE TO STAND UP AND FIGHT AGAINST THIS EVIL AMEN
PS
The French have arrested some Islamic Terrorist and admit some of their people have been going to Iraq to Kill the Iraqi People??
Rick,
This is a murder case, not a kidnapping. And the OJ case you mentioned is a pretty good example of exactly what can happen when the police go too public with evidence.
Of course sometimes snippets of information are released for tactical purposes, but it has been my experience that the police are usually quite tight lipped during murder investigations. I think that is appropriate -- their job is to investigate crimes, not conduct PR wars in the media.
I'm just suggesting a little patience to see how the case is actually handled before jumping to conclusions about the motives of the police and prosecuters.
I actually have a fair degree of faith in the US legal system being quite an effective tool in combating the Wahabis. The US has a considerable amount of case law built up in dealing with religions coming in conflict with Constitutional principals. From Mormons in the 19th Century through the recent Rastafarian and Santeria legal problems, the issue has been well litigated. That case law is going to come as a very unpleasant surprise to American Moslems in the near future.
Ambisinistral,
the consistent failure of authorities throughout the western world to acknowledge the truth - that western civilians are under attack from islamist terrorists - is what is fueling the anger and frustration when we see yet another apparent murderous attack, this one on the Coptic Christian family of blessed memory, and the authorities, yet again, dangling red herrings to see if the public will nibble.
If the authorities fail, as they have so far both in euroabia and here, to TELL THE TRUTH and to protect us, then, like the Mexican border issue, people will take things into their own hands.
Not my preference at all, but apparently is the govts.
There is a real disconnect between the absence of forced entry and a vendetta theory. Requires that the victim was clueless of the vendetta.
New Jersey residents and others ought to petition the state's Attorney General for appointment of a special prosecutor not subject to the whimsy of Jersey City politics.
Ambisinistral -- "I'm just suggesting a little patience to see how the case is actually handled before jumping to conclusions about the motives of the police and prosecuters."
Ohferfuck'ssake. My patience died before noon on 9/11/01, along with nearly 3,000 of my fellow New Yorkers. Now you want me to be more patient while still more of my fellow citizens are murdered by islamic scum? I'm with DC Watson on this: If the police and prosecutors, those whose job it is to protect society, cannot or will not do their jobs, then street justice is all we who are law abiding have left to keep us safe from the Koranimals.
There is a real disconnect between the absence of forced entry and a vendetta theory. Requires that the victim was clueless of the vendetta.
Posted by: Howard at January 26, 2005 02:22 PM
So the theary of them letting the MONSTERS in the house because the knew them is what??
Put this on John Walsh show so the American People can Help the Police??
This PC BS to keep the people in the Dark because they can't handel it will get us killed??
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her Amen
PS
If you have a bubble in your tire it does you no good to shut your eyes better to open your eyes and change that tire before it blows??
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=HISCWTBESOLILQFIQMGCM5OAVCBQUJVC?xml=/news/2005/01/25/ntory25.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/01/25/ixportaltop.html
Brussels: We'll halt Howard's curb on migrants
By David Rennie in Brussels and George Jones
(Filed: 25/01/2005)
The European Commission threatened last night to block Michael Howard's programme of tough immigration controls if the Tories win the election.
These would include setting an annual limit on the number of asylum seekers
While Mr Howard faced criticism at home from refugee and race groups, Brussels officials said that directives already signed by the Government would prevent the Tories from adopting a go-it-alone policy on immigration.
A qualifications directive would stop them from withdrawing from the 1951 United Nations convention on refugees, which prevents Britain from taking immediate action to deport asylum seekers whose claims are not genuine.
Europe's intervention in what has become a major issue in the election campaign took Westminster aback. MPs and officials were unaware of how much national sovereignty on immigration and asylum had been transferred to Brussels.
The Conservative leadership responded by saying that a Tory government would immediately opt out of the new rules. If that were blocked, it would insist on renegotiation to allow Britain to determine its own asylum and immigration policies.
Mr Howard had earlier denied that he was "playing the race card" by putting proposals for strict controls on immigration at the heart of the Tory campaign.
He said that immigration was out of control and that the country could not absorb the "millions" more who wanted to come here. Firm but fair controls were essential for good community relations and national security.
A Tory government would set an annual limit to immigration, including a quota for asylum seekers. It would introduce legislation to give the home secretary power to order the removal of bogus asylum seekers.
Within hours the European Commission said that Mr Howard was too late.
The qualifications directive establishes a binding EU definition of who is a refugee. It has been adopted by Britain and other EU governments and comes into full force in September next year, regardless of who wins the election expected in May.
Its definitions are drawn from the UN convention but expand on and reinforce the rather vague clauses of the 1951 treaty. It offers additional protection to asylum seekers fleeing civil wars and lifts its definitions for such cases wholesale from the European convention on human rights.
Friso Roscam Abbing, the chief spokesman for the EU justice commissioner, Franco Frattini, said that in 1997 Britain had negotiated a sweeping opt-out on questions of immigration. But in recent years, as the EU drew up a common asylum policy, the Government explicitly opted into the negotations. It had signed every directive to date.
"There is nothing in these protocols that allows a British government to opt back out again," Mr Roscam Abbing said. "So Britain is bound by them." Nor would a Conservative government be able to set quotas for the number of refugees accepted each year.
"Say they set a quota of 10,000 a year," Mr Roscam Abbing said. "Well, the 10,001st case could say to a British judge, `Your government is bound by EU rules and is not at liberty not to consider my claim,' "
A rolling wave of protocols and directives - one in force, one coming next month, a third next year and a fourth in 2007 - have overridden national laws on where governments keep asylum seekers, how they treat them, and how many appeals they are allowed.
If a future British government were to enact laws that contravened EU regulations, the commission would begin "infringement proceedings". Those would be followed, if resistance continued, by legal action in the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg.
When The Telegraph told David Davis, the shadow home secretary, he said: "We had a pretty good idea we would have to renegotiate because the Blair Government has been opting into more EU asylum policies."
Trevor Phillips, the chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality, said that Mr Howard's announcement left the way open for racists to put the "worst construction" on his message.
So the theary of them letting the MONSTERS in the house because the knew them is what?
Posted by: Catherine
You don't open the door for someone you suspect will slice up you and your family.
Absence of forced entry indicates the likelihood that the murderers were known to one or more members of the family and not perceived as a threat. That pretty much rules out an "old country" vendetta.
Regardless of the family details, who they were, what religion, what income level, none of that matters over-all in light of the fact that they had as much right to live in peace and security as any other family; they're no more and no less important than anyone else, whether they were murdered by Moslems or space aliens. It doesn't make any difference who killed those people if we consider that they're murdered, and if we consider that objectively as evil. Dead is dead. Who killed them is basically irrelevant at this point.
What makes a difference is that since the family is dead, and since there's a possiblity that Moslems killed them, whether Moslems are ultimately found to be the killers, makes no difference now: we have a good issue, to put it plainly, to make points in our respective communities. This is what Moslems do to others. Islam commands that kind of murder. Whether Moslems actully did it or not, well, it doesn't really make any difference.
We have a lever, and if we wait for the police to give an objective verdict we'll have lost a good propaganda opportunity in the waiting. If Moslems turn out not to be the killers, so what? This is a chance to make some points against the Moslems who will kill others if not the Copts this time. No good reason exists for not using this group murder to educate and make alliances.
Christians should be screaming in every church for the protection of Coptic people everywhere. Now it's local, if not personal. Now Christians in America have a good reason to demand of their religious leaders that a united front be formed to protect Christians everywhere. Now Christians should be screaming. Don't stop at screaming about Copts in New Jersey: Scream about Christians being killed across the Moslem world. This is your chance to do something positive and concrete. Demand that your religious leaders make this an issue in their parrishes. Demand action.
I argue that it's irrelevant who killed the Copts. Make the Copts an issue in your churches. Don't let go. Scream about this.
We are witness first hand of taqiyya played in main stream media.
If you watch his hands he strikes with foot, when he moves he feigns this way or that way to strike where you were at first.
Posted by: Howard at January 26, 2005 03:55 PM
exactly
I've known the HC Prosecutor professionally for years. You guys who think he gives a darn about the religion of who did this are really chasing ghosts. The guy just wants to catch whoever did this - and it's a Muslim jihadists, that's who he'll catch.
It's probably the biggest case of his career - you think he's gonna ignore the facts to placate 10 percent of the city's population?? That's nuts. Really, relax. You watch CSI? You ever see them crack a case based on "this is just the way muslims kill people so let's go arrest a Muslim." I'm no apologist, but really, this is a criminal investigation and he needs evidence to build a case.