Small clash of civilizations in New Zealand. From DPA, with thanks to Ali Dashti:
WELLINGTON - In a milestone judgment, a New Zealand judge ruled on Monday that two Muslim women must remove their veils when giving evidence in a fraud case, though they will be screened from general public view.Anjum Rihman from the Islamic Women’s Council told Radio New Zealand it would be the first time for many years that anyone outside their immediate family would see their faces.
One of the women, Afghani Fouzya Salim, who has lived in New Zealand nearly 10 years but still wears her traditional all-enveloping burqa that leaves only a slit for her eyes, told an Auckland court late last year she “would be in trouble with God” if she removed her veil and would rather kill herself.
The issue arose when Colin Amery, lawyer for the defendant in the case, asked the court to insist Salim and her friend Feraiba Razamjoo remove their veils when giving testimony so that he and the judge could assess their demeanour in the witness box.
After taking several weeks to consider his verdict, the judge ruled the women should be unveiled before the judge, lawyers and female court staff but could be screened from the public gallery and others.
Good bit of Kiwi common sense.
It really is worrying that a woman who has lived in NZ for ten years would rather kill herself than remove her veil. A part of me wants to say 'Go ahead, and raise the average NZ IQ.'
No doubt there will be 'seething and whining' about this, as they say on LGF.
Access to the the face is for the purpose of identification --i.e. public identity, a value in the West. Veiled women are a security risk as their identity is kept from the public -- anyone can be passed off as the woman under the veil.
Epg wrote "Access to the the face is for the purpose of identification --i.e. public identity, a value in the West"
That value is implicit in our very language.
Such phrases as "Ashamed to show her face" "Don't you ever show your face in here again" Must attend a particular event and "show my face" "new face in town" "face the music", our contempt for "faceless bureaucrats" and the best of all in my opinion the blessing "...the Lord make his face to shine upon you" at Numbers 6:25
Perhaps this would be a good time to once and for all examine, and clarify, the extent to which the Qu'ran and other documents require a muslim woman to cover herself.
It's my understanding that the face and hands may be exposed in public, and that a burqa is simply a cultural extension of Islamic law.
I don't think she, or her lawyer, know what they're talking about, but perhaps I'm not that well informed myself.
And, how is it that she is in New Zealand? Is she a refugee? How many like her live in NZ?
What!
Are Muslim women NOT born veiled?
Scandalous!
Does God not promote nakedness by failing to provide a burqa in utero?
What kind of God is this who cannot cloth the revolting features of women in the womb! (Allah is slipping if such a small miracle is beyond his command.)
I say that modern Muslim medical men immediately begin prenatural burqa insertion (PBI) for all viable Muslim female fetuses!
But the Muslim women witness puts it best:
"...[she] would rather kill herself..."
Inshallah.
This does NOT explain why other Afghani women can
be seen wearing only light head scarfs in Public and [shock, horrors!] showing STRANDS OF HAIR!!
Their children, male and female dressed as Kiwi Kids wearing shorts...As I don't live in Auckland can't comment on Afghani customs there.
Perhaps Fouzya Salim still thinks she is living under the Taleban? As well she might be according to this newspaper quote about her lifestyle.
"His wife who was born in Afghanistan, always wore her burqa in public. She would consider venturing out WITHOUT IT ONLY IN AN EXTREME EMERGENCY. She did not cover her face inside the home, but NONE OF MR SALIM'S MALE FRIENDS OR EXTENDED FAMILY WERE ALLOWED TO SEE HER.[why not??]WHEN VISITORS CAME, MEN AND WOMEN SAT IN DIFFERENT ROOMS."
How's that for gender Apartheid!!Have tried to Google why this family was allowed into N.Z. as
Refugees but have drawn a blank.
Reports from N.Z Papers aren't sympathetic to Missus Salim, in fact one printed very knowing reports about Islam refuting the claim of Religion since Mohammed saw women UNVEILED and in Haj to Mecca women are not allowed to be VEILED.
Also went on to warn what New Zealand Society would be if Bigoted Fanatics took over ...
Rules on Burqas here are :
Drivers Licence BANNED
Passport BANNED
Test Court Case REMOVED TO TESTIFY
Morgane-
Thanks.
I'd say the folks claiming Mrs. Salim would be 'in trouble with god' if forced to show her face in public either don't know what they're talking about or they are liars.
I can't find any Qu'ranic/Islamic references that require a woman's face to be covered in public.
Good on the Muslim families who are allowing their NZ kids to grow up with open minds (and less restrictive clothing), and good on the NZ press for not buying into the religious claims made by Mrs. Salim and her lawyer.
I do believe the regional requirement for muslim women to cover their faces (including wearing a burqa or even a veil) is a cultural tradition driven by overzealous interpretation of Islamic texts, and would not stand the scrutiny of honest examination--as you've noted, not all muslim women are so conservative.
Perhaps the best way for the judge to have ended the argument would have been to tell the lawyer to prove his argument--in writing.
I find it odd that a refugee family from Afghanistan would request asylum in a place and culture so foreign to themselves such as NZ. I find it troubling that the family would not only want to continue a part of the tradition of oppression that they, for whatever reason, left behind. And it's even more troubling that they want you believe their claim without question.
Amazing.
This is just more proof that Muslims who migrate to the West have no intention of integrating with Western society. They merely interleave. They adopt none of the Western values and contribute nothing to the common weal. Antisocial behaviour such as this example demonstrate that Islam is a parasite upon the host of Western civilization and must be expunged from the dar al Harb by whatever means necessary, means that our ancestors had no hesitation in using for more than a thousand years. The present generation will soon need to find its inner strength and muster up the courage to act in defence of the civilization that our ancestors have bequeathed to us and had themselves defended with the sacrifice of many of their own lives.
BOBC
There are Afghan Refugees in New Zealand who do want to integrate and actually show gratitude for
being accepted. There is, however, something odd about this particular family and I shall try to find out more.
1] If Mrs Salim is super modestly fanatical what is she doing as a Crown Witness in a Fraud Case?
2]To be kept so cut off even from fellow Muslims is a mystery, is she perhaps a child bride, New Zealand authorities would prosecute if she was say 14yrs?
3]If Muslim brides are very young and illiterate
[as many are] they would know nothing of a country
like New Zealand and could be easily controlled by
husband or some other dominating Male figure?
There are more questions than answers...
Turns out this shy Muslim Flower actually DRIVES A CAR AND WAS UNVEILED FOR PHOTO OF HER DRIVING
LICENCE!!
NZ Listener
"Defence Counsel Colin Amery wanted to know if Mrs Salim possessed a normal driver's licence. She does[sans veil]."
Abdul Razamjoo is accused of two acts of dishonesty and supporting the CROWN CASE AS WITNESSES ARE MRS SALIM AND FERAIBA RAZAMJOO, THE SISTER OF THE ACCUSED...
So goodbye to theory of deprived,illiterate child bride etc, there is NO mention of Salim requiring
a translator. So what does all this bullsh*t mean, maybe some potential Jihardi fanatics in our midst?? By the way,Canterbury University religious studies Ghazala Anwar says this attention because women wore burqas reflect N Z
'Islamaphobic Attitudes.' Reckon we've heard this
before somewhere,eh!