Saudi Court sentences 12-year-old boy to 80 lashes

I'm curious but doubt data is available. Would this child's sentence been as bad had his crime not occurred during haj?

Poor kid. At least he didn't get his hand amputated.

And the kid will probably say, "Allah will sustain me. Allah saved me." or whatever.

I didn't see a mention of his "crime." Any ideas?

O.T.

Here is what happens when a Muslim gets mad at you.

Ex-lover charged in fatal house fire

http://www.canada.com/calgary/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=05825edd-7a88-4078-84b3-1c21019aba2c

Ooops... now I see, pickpocketing. I guess it only takes the accusation of one Muslim man to get such a punishment meted.

What if a light-skinned Pakistani "Muslim" sees one of his hated, reviled, dark-skinned Bangladeshi "brothers"? What if he was part of the massacre of Bangladesh in 1970, and hates Bangladeshis? What if he just wants to be an asshole? What if he hates little boys? What if the boy was a prostitute and picked the guy up, who them refused to pay or hated himself so much that he wanted to see the little boy hurt?

Remember this quick "system of justice" the next time some loudmouthed douchebag pipes off about how we "need" to return to the good old ways of taking "convicted" murderers straight from the courtroom to the gallows.

I didn't see a mention of his "crime." Any ideas?

Posted by: kj

Pick pocketing.

The paper said the boy who is from Bangladesh was arrested in Mena, three miles outside the holy city of Makkah, where two million Muslims gathered for the annual pilgrimage after he was allegedly caught "pick pocketing" pilgrims.

kj~ in regards to 'loudmouth douchebags,' I present you some info on a few of them- all Democrats.
(apologies to the rest for the OT)

http://mdcurrington.tripod.com/mdc/barry_goldwater.html

Even if this boy was picking pockets for the sheer sake of it, the punishment handed out far outweighs the crime, and that’s putting it mildly. One lash would have been one to many as far as I’m concerned.

A bit off topic, do they still lash people in Singapore? I seem to remember from a few years back something about an American teenager who broke some law in Singapore and was going to get a public lashing. Did that ever happen, and does anyone know if they still lash people in Singapore.

The reason I ask is that as far as I know Singapore is a secular democratic nation that doesn’t have Sharia laws. So if they are still doing it, then as much as the practice is abhorrent what happened to the boy in Saudi Arabia could happen in a democratic country that is largely seen as being the most advanced in Asia.

As I said though I’m not to sure that it still happens or if in fact that it is a secular nation. Anyone out there with any info feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

Remember this quick "system of justice" the next time some loudmouthed douchebag pipes off about how we "need" to return to the good old ways of taking "convicted" murderers straight from the courtroom to the gallows.

Posted by: loudmouthed douchebag kj at January 25, 2005 09:08 AM

I am not for Islam but in this case maybe the punishment fits the crime. We give minors to much of a break in this country. As an example of a Catholic country justice. A friend of mine several years ago was in the Navy in th P. I. and a little kid stole his watch. He yelled at the kid and there was a policeman near the scene. He pulled out a gun and shot the kid in the back. Walked over and got the watch for my friend. He stated if he knew justice was that swift he would have let the kid have the watch.

The "judicial process" we see in this case is entirely consistent with Saudi Arabian "law". According to Human Rights Watch:

"Saudi Arabia has no written penal code, code of criminal procedure, or code of judicial procedure, allowing police and judges wide discretion in many cases to determine what activities constitute criminal offenses and what sentences such "crimes" deserve. Because there is no constitutional court there is no way for an individual to challenge a sentence without directly or indirectly appealing to the king. The king and his appointed Council of Ministers have near absolute authority to interpret written law, while the government-appointed Council of Senior Religious Scholars has final authority over interpretations of the Shari`a. The Council's interpretations give precedence to the Hanbali school of jurisprudence, especially as explicated by the fourteenth century jurist Ibn Taymiya. The Hanbali school is considered to be the most conservative of Sunni Islam's four schools of jurisprudence.
All four schools of jurisprudence agree on three main categories of crimes. Boundary crimes (hudud) are those whose punishments and evidentiary and procedural requirements are clearly delimited in the Quran and the collected deeds and sayings of the Prophet Mohammed (al-sunna). Equity crimes (qisas) are those crimes causingphysical injury or death to another person, and their punishments are also specified in the Quran and the Sunna. Discretionary or reform crimes (ta`zir), include crimes whose punishments are not specified in the Quran or Sunna, or which do not meet the evidentiary and procedural requirements of the first two categories.
Punishments for boundary crimes include execution by beheading or stoning, crucifixion, amputation (of a hand, or a hand and a foot, depending on the crime), banishment, or flogging, and persons convicted of boundary crimes cannot be pardoned. Equity crime punishments are intended to punish the criminal by means equivalent to the harm inflicted on the victim, and thus the judge is allowed discretion in designing a punishment suitable to the specifics of the particular case. In an equity crime the victim or his or her family can choose to accept monetary compensation in lieu of other punishments. Reform crimes allow the greatest judicial discretion in sentencing, including allowing for pardons in cases where the criminal repents of the crime. The only limit on reform punishments is the condition that these sentences be less than those for boundary crimes. Different schools of jurisprudence differ on whether this means that reform punishments must be less than the harshest boundary punishment, less than the least harsh boundary punishment, or less than a parallel boundary punishment."

http://hrw.org/reports/1997/saudi/Saudi-03.htm

But on the other hand... if they didn't have such punishments in Saudi-Arabia, they would surely have just as many criminal Muslims as here in Europe!

Earthling: I don't believe they use the lash in Singapore - they use the cane (on the buttocks)which is equally nasty. I believe the person you referred to was convicted of writing graffiti but I may be wrong on that. While the punishment may be severe, Singapore has an independent, secular judiciary (Singapore is not Muslim and is mainly Chinese). BTW, during this case, I saw many references to North American newspaper articles quoting people as saying they wish this could happen in North America - they were fed up with the light treatment afforded many criminals.

Don't be such a bunch of wusses. 80 lashes is far too much but half a dozen across the backside might teach the little theif not to try again. Don't let an honest and defendable anti-Islam sentiment cause us to think they are all totally depraved. An evil religion yes but not always a depraved individual.

Darkwing, you anticipated me. However I would not be surprised if the 80 lashes were so they could enjoy watching him suffer longer.

Darkwing, you anticipated me. However I would not be surprised if the 80 lashes were so they could enjoy watching him suffer longer.

Posted by: Gary at January 25, 2005 11:52 AM

Muslims are transfixed in a state of rapt ecstacy when they enjoy their favorite form of entertainment, the witnessing of brutal Islamic punishments. The bloodier and more painful for the criminal, the more they enjoy it.
I have seen pictures of men being impaled while crowds of cheering spectators and participants revelled in the savagry. Their love and enjoyment of death, suffering, and their lust for blood come directly from the tenets of their perverted faith.
They probably leave these horrendous scenes and enjoy a hearty lunch, where they eagerly rehash the excitement of watching a helpless victim die a brutal,bloody, excruciatingly painful death.

kj~ in regards to 'loudmouth douchebags,' I present you some info on a few of them- all Democrats. (apologies to the rest for the OT)

Gary, is that all you can think of? Do you read every article and every comment looking for a place to insert your idiotic politcal bs or throw an insult at a lib'rul?

You're like a goddam Muslim, you know that? They spend all day thinking about how oppressed they are, and looking for some proof. They go to a zoo and think, "That lion over there is a Zionist."

No apology needed for the OT... we have come to expect it from the likes of you.

It ain't the liberals that call for that quick justice crap, that try to limit appeals, that try to throw out DNA evidence that exonerates so many men "found guilty" of murder.

*********************************************

DC Watson Posted by: loudmouthed douchebag kj at January 25, 2005 09:08 AM

Hey, boy. I'm not afraid of you and your steroid inflamed biceps like the rest of this forum. Despite your extensive training as an X-ray tech (a two-year community college degree. How do I know? My wife received one) or whatever, you don't impress me. Your mustache and goatee aren't even connected. I still haven't forgotten your little show with the semi-scowl Hulk-Hogan-wannabe photo, the one with the magic marker filling in your efete facial hair.

***********************************************

Friends, please note: I didn't say one thing about politics; I only commented on the poor kid in question. And I commented about the petty "quick justice, old-West style" loudmouths. Gary and DC pile right on with some bs. For Gary it's political; for DC it's personal.

Sorry for not laying down and playing Colmes for you Miss Nancys.

Now, speaking of the kid that got 80 lashes, my mother recently reminded me of a story from her Uncle. He was on a ship patrolling the Persian gulf in the 50's. He had a Saudi cabin boy for a while. He knew the kid was stealing from him; petty change, cigarettes, candy, whatever. But he didn't dare turn him in because he knew they would cut the boy's hand off. (Another crummy bleeding-heart lib, eh Gary?) We was a Captain in the US Navy when he died of cancer in the sixties.

************************************************
Alright, Gary. Time to attack again. Tell me about Senator Byrd or Huey P. Long or somesuch. Tell me how Reagan or Rush or Strom are civil rights leaders. Tell me about all those black republicans.

And DC, you can make some threats or whatever makes you feel like a biiiiiig man.

"The paper said an AdHoc court that operates during the annual pilgrimage sentenced the boy only hours after his arrest, and applied the punishment on the street outside the court. No lawyers or family members were present during the process, but the boy was later handed to his family."

Two thoughts occur to me here:

#1: the AdHoc court is set up in readiness for this kind of stuff because it's commonplace for Muslim pick-pockets to take advantage of the Haj (I'm sure no Christians, Jews etc. would venture anywhere near a site so notorious for stampedes and other perils)

#2: the boy may well have been trained by his family and brought there to take advantage of the crowds, the typical pick-pocket modus operandi

As for Darkwing's suggestion that 8 lashes are in order, I'd be loathe to see the return of corporal punishment in the West and would love to see an Eastern/Muslim world that comes up with better means of punishing thieves and other petty criminals.

'You're like a goddam Muslim, you know that? They spend all day thinking about how oppressed they are, and looking for some proof. They go to a zoo and think, "That lion over there is a Zionist."'

kj, you are a lying bastard. you know nothing of me and you are incapble of knowing. I will continue to publish the truth in opposition to your leftist taqiya and you may burn in hell. Every.Single.Day I shall continue to put up articles proving the case about leftist support of islam.

btw kj, I don't see you proving that article wrong. Did you even bother to read it, or is the truth too much for you to bear?

I favor the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and it must be enforced at gunpoint if necessary.
Ronald Reagan

More quotes:

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/r/ronaldreag109972.html

And while you are at it, explain why more Republican voted for the Civil Rights Act, then democrats (97% to 80%)

Voting habits of muslims (A muslim-run website):
http://www.amperspective.com/html/voting_habits.html

Hey, boy. I'm not afraid of you and your steroid inflamed biceps like the rest of this forum. Despite your extensive training as an X-ray tech (a two-year community college degree. How do I know? My wife received one) or whatever, you don't impress me. Your mustache and goatee aren't even connected. I still haven't forgotten your little show with the semi-scowl Hulk-Hogan-wannabe photo, the one with the magic marker filling in your efete facial hair.

And DC, you can make some threats or whatever makes you feel like a biiiiiig man.

Posted by: kj at January 25, 2005 12:25 PM

C'mon Keith, I was just jokin' around. Stop being such a whiney little baby and lighten up.
You come on here insulting people all the time. I like the part "Hey, boy. I'm not afraid of you and your steroid inflamed biceps like the rest of this forum". That's a good one. Especially knowing that your safe in your 12x60. If you can't take it, don't dish it out, sissy.

btw kj, I don't see you proving that article wrong. Did you even bother to read it, or is the truth too much for you to bear?

I read it. It was the same, old, tired blather about the formerly racist democrats, and the formerly pro-civil rights republicans. "Al Gore Sr. blah blah blah....Senator Byrd blah blah blah..." etc.

I can handle the truth. I know that the cracker rabble that USED to constitute my party were mostly racists. The key word here is "USED". The "Party of Lincoln" became the party of Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms. Jesse got his start as a famous personality when he had a TV show in North Carolina that would come on every night in the 60's after David Brinkley's report on the days events regarding the fight for civil rights. Helms' show was called "Countering Brinkley's Lies" or something like that. The good, fair-minded people of North Carolina thought so much of Jesse's right-wing, anti-segregation crap that they sent him to DC as their senator, and kept sending him until he retired.

By the way, did I mention that he's a republican?

I can certainly handle the truth about my side being wrong about Islam, yet you resolutley deny every less-than-perfect aspect of your side.

kj, you are a lying bastard. you know nothing of me and you are incapble of knowing.

I know you by your works.

I will continue to publish the truth in opposition to your leftist taqiya and you may burn in hell.

Oh no! I'm going to burn in hell! Waaah!

Every.Single.Day I shall continue to put up articles proving the case about leftist support of islam.

That's sure to get a lot of liberals on our side. You can go on and on and on, but the dipshit "Free Palestine" crowd graduating at Georgetown and Columbia are STILL going to be our diplomats and foreign service agents. So keep doing your level best to convince the liberals that liberals should support Islam, and some of them will be persuaded.

And when I have time, I will prove that you are full of Dole. Like your bs quote from Reagan. How about his "You can't legislate morality" quote?

Gary, this is the problem. You only tell part of the story, and make it appear that--oh for instance--that Clinton caused 9-11, that terror attacks on Americans didn't start until 1993, that Reagan was a great christian that supported the troops, that liberals hate america, etc.

For every quote you can find at newsmax freerepublic.com, etc. about how much liberals hate America, I can find you a RIGHT-WINGER talking the same trash.

You go on and on about the intellectuals that apologize for Islam, and never a word about any right-winger that does the same thing.

You are obsessed with left-wing attorneys helping Jihadis and care nothing for the right-wing attorneys doing the same thing.

You are in many ways just like a Muslim. Selective outrage, taqqiya, apologist blather, revising history, etc.

And while you are at it, explain why more Republican voted for the Civil Rights Act, then democrats (97% to 80%)

It's so funny that you pretend to NOT understand this. I guess Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck have taught you well. Alright, can you pretend to listen this time? Here we go, again.

The democrats were the party of conservative racist pricks. Nixon had an idea called "The Southern Strategy" which would get southern democrats to join the GOP. It was all about supporting or opposing civil rights for black people. Nixon's idea worked very well. Even the guy that planned it for him is on recording as saying that he regrets it.

An easy way for you to refute my claims about race and the GOP would be to point out some elected black conservative republicans. I know, I know. Dub appointed Rice and Powell, and Bush Sr. appointed Clarence Thomas. Let's see the con-reps actually ELECT a black person. OJ Watts is retired. There are 43 black democrats in the Congressional Black Caucus and no republicans. Why?

You can say what you want about the way Muslims vote. They voted overwhelmingly for Kerry in the last election. That's because they hate Bush like everybody else. Black people, homosexuals, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, atheists, academics, college graduates, etc. etc. all vote predominantly liberal. Why do you continue to pretend to be surprised that American Muslims voted against the guy that most people hate?

You can bark at the moon all you want. The fact is that in the 2000 election, MOST voting Muslims in Florida (and elsewhere) voted for Bush because Lieberman is a Jew. Dude, they are conservative. They hate homosexuals. They hate Jews. They are obsessed with "The End Times" or whatever.

In Florida more than anywhere else Muslims were encouraged to vote for Dub by Al-Arian, king of the Florida Muslims. Al-Arian campaigned for Bush, posed with Dub for a photo at a fundraiser, and even met with President Bush at the Whitehouse to talk about "Islamic relations."

Now what's your next lie? That republicans and conservatives support the rights of women? That Muslims and liberals think JUST ALIKE as regards the rights of women? Come on, tough guy. Bring it on.

BTW... your side invented Hell, you go burn in it. Even if the god of the bible is the One, I'm still covered because I work to help Israel, and the god of the bible told Abraham or one of the old patriarchs that whoever blessed him and his descendents, or the people of Israel (or something like that) would be blessed.

Gary, it is common knowledge in these parts that I reside in Florida. Where do you live? Just tell me the state, becuase I thought that you were a Canadian. Please answer.

KJ

C'mon Keith, I was just jokin' around. Stop being such a whiney little baby and lighten up.
You come on here insulting people all the time. I like the part "Hey, boy. I'm not afraid of you and your steroid inflamed biceps like the rest of this forum". That's a good one. Especially knowing that your safe in your 12x60. If you can't take it, don't dish it out, sissy.

Yeah, you're right, DC. Sorry about my temper and quick repsonse. I used to tell people to never speak or type while angry, to wait until you calm down.

Sometimes you guys make it hard for me to remember that at this website we are all on the same side. I just wish that you and Gary and I could limit our talk to stuff on which we agree.

Now what the heck is a 12x60? No, wait. Let me think about it for a while. Don't tell me until tomorrow, okay?

Sissy? I've been called worse. Faggot, Jewboy, niggerlover, communist, satanist, hippy, babykiller, jarhead, racemixer, homeless bum, dumbass, etc. But it was all in good fun (for them.)

Can anyone help me with some html? Someone over at LGF told me how to use the "strikethough" feature but I never got it to work.

I tried [strike]jihadwatch[/strike] and [strikethrough]jihadwatch[/strikethrough] (replacing ]'s with .'s, of course) but neither seems to work. Any pointers?

Ontario / Pennsylvania. Dual Citizen and planning to vote in Every election I can in the US.

And you still get Everything wrong about me.

..and about stuff on which we agree? that would be fine. Leave out any and ALL republican/conservative bashing and I shall do the same.

Keith, it's all good. We're on the same side. Rib a little, take a little ribbing.

I make a decent home-made barbeque sauce for those ribs, too.

I for one am sick of hearing all the facist neo-con this, and sissy lib that mud-slinging, particually between Gary and KJ. It comes across like lover's spats or childhood grudges, I can't decide which. You two should give each other a break.

Ben Franklin said, “We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.” I think if we all truely understood that, the idiotic partisan retoric and name calling here would cease.

f.g.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction". - Blaise Pascal

I for one am sick of hearing all the facist neo-con this, and sissy lib that mud-slinging, particually between Gary and KJ. It comes across like lover's spats or childhood grudges, I can't decide which. You two should give each other a break.

I think if we all truely understood that, the idiotic partisan retoric and name calling here would cease.

f.g.

Is this the same f.g. that scolded Ali Dashti the other day, on another thread, for posting links into one of his posts?

f.g., since you're the "f.n.g." on the block, please step carefully.

OT:
Here's something we can all agree on:

Sudan: Perpetrators of War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity Must Be Brought to Justice

"Despite 21 years of war crimes and crimes against humanity not one single perpetrator has been brought to justice in Sudan. Write to the U.S. Secretary of State urging the UN Security Council to ensure that perpetrators of grave crimes in Sudan are now brought to justice."

http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/action/index.asp?step=2&item=11467

E-mail to Secretary of State Powell available at the above link.

Ontario / Pennsylvania. Dual Citizen and planning to vote in Every election I can in the US.

SO.... not even a real American and always spewing forth about American politics? Nice. Very nice.

Go ahead and vote in every US election that you can. You're in a Blue state.

And you still get Everything wrong about me.

Is that why I was right about your Canadian-ness?

Leave out any and ALL republican/conservative bashing and I shall do the same.

Gary, I ask that you read the comments page again, and tell me which one of us started with the conservative-liberal stuff. You already said earlier that you will come every day and post "proof" (most likely ala newsmax, frontpagemag, freerepublic, etc.) of liberal support for Islam. So should I believe what you say now, or what you said then?

********************************************

Keith, it's all good. We're on the same side. Rib a little, take a little ribbing.

I'm glad there's no hard feelings. I can take an insult. What kind of liberalleftistloserloner can't?

********************************************

I for one am sick of hearing all the facist neo-con this, and sissy lib that mud-slinging, particually between Gary and KJ.

And believe me 'Zilla, I am too. BTW, I don't think I have ever called anyone a "neo-con". And I didn't call Gary a fascist (today.) I just told him the truth about southern American politics. As it turns out, he has very likely never lived in the South and doens't know much about the less-desirable traits of conservatism.

I agree with Benjamin Franklin (BTW he was refering to keeping every colonial congressman on the rebellion side. To do so, Thomas Jefferson had to strike the original Constitutional requirement that slavery be abolished. It seems the conventioneers from Georgia and South Carolina were threatening to stay on the side of England if they coulnd't continue to own slaves. I know it sounds unpatriotic, but Gary will find a way to label them as liberals, rest assured.)

Gary has been telling me how bad liberals are for a good year now. And I just can't play Colmes for him. When he stops, I stop. When he or anybody else (Nathan, Catharine, etc.) starts, I answer. Sometimes in the past I have "started it" but I don't think that I have lately. I'm sure Gary probably thinks that he is doing what is right, just like I think that I am right. Unfortunately for Gary, only one of us can be right.

We can come here and talk about Islam, Jihad, taqqiya, etc. Or some of us can come here with a fistful of cut&paste from newsmax et al. and graffiti the comments with political spew. And when we do, some of us are going to answer it.

Zilla, you think THIS is bad? You should have been here before the election....just like Gary should have been half-Pennsylvanian back when Arlen Specter begged--BEGGED!--Momma Ketchup to run for the US Senate.

Is this the same f.g. that scolded Ali Dashti the other day, on another thread, for posting links into one of his posts?

f.g., since you're the "f.n.g." on the block, please step carefully.

Care to explain yourself prickzilla?

Oh yeah, DC... after careful deliberation, I realized that you mean a 12x60 (feet square area) mobile home! Sorry. I have lived in one before, and may again some day (shudder) but for now I have a real house, and an investment home.

BTW they've been making them 14' x 60' for some time now.

As a former construction worker, I hold mobile homes in the same high regard that chefs do for tv dinners and lumberjacks do for plywood.

"Despite 21 years of war crimes and crimes against humanity not one single perpetrator has been brought to justice in Sudan."

...and they never will. They're Arab Muslims.

Oh yeah, DC... after careful deliberation, I realized that you mean a 12x60 (feet square area) mobile home! Sorry. I have lived in one before, and may again some day (shudder) but for now I have a real house, and an investment home.

As a former construction worker, I hold mobile homes in the same high regard that chefs do for tv dinners and lumberjacks do for plywood.

Keith, thanks for making me laugh on this one, it's been a lousy day. I've lived in one too.....Not anymore, but once.

I have ever called anyone a "neo-con".
Well bless you.

I was generalizing there kj. Neo-con and sissy-lib are just the least favorite labels I've seen people trade when they want to paint someone else with mud or place them in a nice little box so they cna throw rocks at them.

We are too diverse as people to all fit into just two boxes. Lib or Con. Rep or Dem. Since when does ice-cream come in two flavors?

f.g.

Born and raised in Pennsylvania, you moron.

You say you know me? You just proved that wrong, pinhead. I've been talking about where I came from and what I've done ever since I came to this site, and you are still clueless!

I rest my case. You know nothing of me and you just proved you are incapable of knowing.

BTW he was refering to keeping every colonial congressman on the rebellion side.

Yes, and he meant "hanging" quite literally too. Had they broke ranks it would have been all over, which is my point. Overlooking small differences (although slavery could hardly be called a small issue) in order to unite for the common good is what America has always been about. From the beginning.

Also, in the sense that a "conservative" viewpoint is one that would rather see things stay the same rather than change, you would have to say the fellas from the south were conservative to a fault in that sense.

f.g.

waterdragon52 -- There are PLENTY of Christian (non-practicing) pickpockets, but they wouldn't be able to get to the Muslim pilgrims even if they wanted to risk 80 lashes. No non-Muslims are allowed into Mecca.

The NY Times had a long article last week about how cosmopolitan and open Mecca is: black Muslims are welcome there (gasp!) and so are women who are allowed to speak up (a little) and pray with the men (it is so crowded, the morality police force are overwhelmed). Buried in the article was the teeny exception to openness: no NON MUSLIMS allowed. I guess the Muslim reporter and the Muslim photographer didn't think that was a big deal.

I rarely respond to anyone directly here because I don't see this as a forum for my private beefs with people who piss me off or even with people who agree with me. spe3ncer and Hugh and many others put in many hours of work each day to provide us with useful and educative material so we can work toward the day when Islam is laid to rest for good.

I often urge people reading and writing here to forget about expressing their differences and not even to try to work together because we have differences too deep to patch over; but I do urge that we form sub-groups with spokespeople who can meet under the anti-Islamic umbrella that covers us all. I urge that we form groups of like-minded friends and work with them alone so we don't waste our time and energy fighting among ourselves. Most of us, really, have very little in common. Those we have commonalities with we should gather to us and work effectively toward some real goal. Some people risk their lives for this chance to do this good work. Some, we can assume, will in time die because of what they do here.

Having written that, I have to add that I'm heartened that DC and KJ can meet like adults and laugh a little. I'm not that humorous, myself. Too bad for me, if I care, I guess. And maybe I do because I am feeling better about DC and KJ, though I don't feel any better about the weasle who pissed me off a week ago. Taking DC and KJ as examples of how to respond even though I'd be happy to hunt down and stomp that pos...well, it was a good lesson from you, and I thank you for it.

If we may, I'd like from here on to return to the message above: that unless we stop Islam itself we might well end up with Oliver Twist being flogged at Finsbury Park. Is that a good thing? Can we stop that from happening in Europe, which seems to be an event we might witness in parts of Scandanavia soon if the Moslems gain further control of, for example, Malmo, Sweden. If we can do something constructive, liberal or conservative, even weasles, what should we do?

So, what should we do? Any ideas?

And in this corner weighing in at a solid 230 pounds wearing the red, white, and blue trunks.

His opponent weighing in at a 150 pounds soaking wet, wearing the blue, white, and red trunks.

REF CAUTIONS: lets keep it clean guys and no hitting below the belt, poking of the eye's, headbutts,etc.

Nice Volley

Excuse me. I forgot in my haste to point out that my weasle actually bothered to contact me personally. He deserves credit for that; and I should also point out that he's not a contributor to this site. My point above was lost in my huff: I got mail from someone who took the time to contact me personally with some idiot bs rather than to come on board here to spew. My other final point is that I think it's good that we can disagree without venom, and too, that it's more to my liking if we take seriously the topics at hand. And my last final point is that I didn't mean to suggest that anyone here is pissing me off. If you do piss me off, and if I have responded to you in the fashion you deserve, well, it wasn't my fault, man.

So, what to do about jihadis in the neighborhood, huh?

sonofwalker~

First we need to change the way they are educating our kids in public schools.

By removing the Leftist teachings:

http://www.historytextbooks.org/

As someone who has had plenty of property stolen over the years, I have utterly no sympathy for juvenile thieves -- and believe the earlier they are punished (and all out of proportion to the crime), the better.

Every single person in the United States who's ever written a bad check should be immediatley horsewhipped on live national television, with their name in giant block letters across the bottom of the screen.

-- The trouble with Islam is that its punishment is hypocritical; i.e., stealing from infidels is not only permitted, but encouraged.

sonofwalker, the entire *premise* of "public schooling" *incorporates* communist principles of mandatory-attendance to coercively-funded "education" camps run by apparacheks.

Burn them all down.

Right now.

First we need to change the way they are educating our kids in public schools.

By removing the Leftist teachings:

http://www.historytextbooks.org/

Posted by: Gary at January 25, 2005 07:38 PM

Gary, right you are.

1) Given the fact that the government school system is a bureaucractic behemoth, and

2) Given the fact that the leftist leanings of government school policy makers and teachers had their origins a long time ago, with the education received by American boys in Europe (primarily Kantian Germany) in the peri-1850s, and continued thereafter, and

3) Given that the divisive concepts of multiculturalism and diversity are permanently ensconced, we will NEVER be able to change the way they are educating our kids.

There is only one answer: Establish a private school system which teaches the truth about Islam.

Revolts against government school teaching policies have been successful in the past. For example, when Catholic parents early in the 20th century objected to the teaching of Protestant views in the government schools (so much so that they called the government school system the "Protestant Schools"), they founded their own system of private schools which exists to this day.

We could do the same.

Mike Schneider states,

"...camps run by apparacheks."

Have you ever lived under the "apparatchiks"?

It may be possible for your bluster to be blown out of the Siberian ass of your own ignorance.

I, too, have little sympathy for many of these juvenile thieves, who get away with it, time and time again. Arrogant. Without remorse. Slaps on the wrist, and off they go, to do it again. But 80 lashes??? No, sorry. That's not right. This kid is 12 years old. Still a boy. As others have said, perhaps he was put up to this, the pick-pocketing, by parents or other adults. Maybe even forced to, no choice. 80 lashes could kill the child.

Even if it didn't, it's just barbaric, the worst of cruelty and viciousness. As susanp says, it seems it's like a sport or a form of entertainment to many in the Muslim world - to watch someone get savaged. Much like we sit and watch a football game or the tennis. They sit there and cheer on someone bludgeoning a tied up, helpless person for doing things which, okay are not acceptable, but certainly not deserving of such savagery. It indicates a culture that has no humanity or compassion. I laugh when I hear of Islam and sharia giving grace and dignity to Muslims. It gives nothing but bloodlust and barbarity.

I wonder if the kid will leave Islam once he`s old enough.

hutchrun: you said: "I wonder if the kid will leave Islam once he`s old enough."

That would depend on how much flesh he will have left on his back.

SonofWalker

First of all, we'll have to start meeting in the real world. Contact Susan and see what cities we all live in, and where we can contact each other.

kj:

It's a long shot whether you'll ever check back to this thread, but I'd like a reply to my last response to you on the DW Jan. 11 "Terrorists' Leftists . . . " thread.

Re the strikethrough feature, I've never tried it, but have you tried replacing the brackets with directional arrows?

waterdragon52 -- There are PLENTY of Christian (non-practicing) pickpockets, but they wouldn't be able to get to the Muslim pilgrims even if they wanted to risk 80 lashes. No non-Muslims are allowed into Mecca.

The NY Times had a long article last week about how cosmopolitan and open Mecca is: black Muslims are welcome there (gasp!) and so are women who are allowed to speak up (a little) and pray with the men (it is so crowded, the morality police force are overwhelmed). Buried in the article was the teeny exception to openness: no NON MUSLIMS allowed. I guess the Muslim reporter and the Muslim photographer didn't think that was a big deal.

Posted by: former liberal WF

F L WF:

That was the point I wanted to make -- that this adhoc court was set up to deal with Muslim miscreants as they are the only ones who would be able to travel there in the first place, the underlying point being that Muslims are far from being morally superior to infidels.

Born and raised in Pennsylvania, you moron.

So why do you have citizenship in Canada, you non-American? If you really love America and are all for conservative party hoopla, why do you hold a citizenship in a nation that welcomed our draftdodgers with open arms (the ones that couldn’t buy a slot in the Texas Air National “Guard”), doesn’t help us in Iraq, has a social (a.k.a. “commie”) medicine system, is enacting legislation to recognize gay marriage, and is legalizing marijuana? Maybe you have some nasty proclivities you’d rather not indulge LOL.

You say you know me? You just proved that wrong, pinhead. I've been talking about where I came from and what I've done ever since I came to this site, and you are still clueless.

Shut up, un-American.

I rest my case. You know nothing of me and you just proved you are incapable of knowing.

Yeah, like I didn’t know you weren’t completely American. Oh, you “forgot” to answer my charge above: why don’t conservative republicans ELECT a black person?

****************************************************

…you would have to say the fellas from the south were conservative to a fault in that sense.

That’s redundant.

Buried in the article was the teeny exception to openness: no NON MUSLIMS allowed.

So where is the all-caps announcement from a conservative “news” outlet, that infidels aren’t even allowed in Mecca? Is it on FOX? Here’s a case about how ALL news networks sugarcoat Islam: remember back during the First Bush Gulf War, there was all this talk of “Shi’ite” Muslims and “Shi’ite” Islam? I can even remember David Letterman having a joke in the Top Ten list in his monologue about “If you ain’t Muslim, you ain’t Shi’ite.” Haha… get it? It sounds like the word “shit”, especially to people familiar with the Scottish brogue (thank you “Trainspotting.”)

Nowadays they don’t say “Shi’ite” any more. Now it’s “Shia”. Now “Shia” is both a noun and an adjective. So my point is this. Do they say “Shia” on FOX news or “Shi’ite”?

…because I am feeling better about DC and KJ, though I don't feel any better about the weasle who pissed me off a week ago…

That’s because even though I am a liberal and (I guess) DC is a conservative, we both come here to learn and talk about Islam. Gary comes here to whine about liberals.

If we can do something constructive, liberal or conservative, even weasles, what should we do?

We should try to convince others to wake up and understand the truth about Islam. As long as certain elements continue to make a comment page into a bully pulpit about petty political tripe, some people are definitely coming here and being turned off. Gary, knock it off already! We’ve already got the (mainstream) conservative opinion locked up! Most conservatives already hate Jihad and Islam. The focus NOW should be on convincing liberals.

And in this corner weighing in at a solid 230 pounds wearing the red, white, and blue trunks.

That would be me.

His opponent weighing in at a 150 pounds soaking wet, wearing the blue, white, and red trunks.

….and that’s Gary.

REF CAUTIONS: lets keep it clean guys and no hitting below the belt, poking of the eye's, headbutts,etc.

Are choke holds and arm bars allowed? Unless Gary has a Taser in his jock, the match will be over in thirty seconds.

************************************************

As someone who has had plenty of property stolen over the years, I have utterly no sympathy for juvenile thieves -- and believe the earlier they are punished (and all out of proportion to the crime), the better.

I think I would be all for a minor corporal punishment, like paddling in schools or whatever. Maybe ONE lash for stealing. Six lashes for the second offense, etc.

Every single person in the United States who's ever written a bad check should be immediatley horsewhipped on live national television, with their name in giant block letters across the bottom of the screen.

Nice. See my first comments, above. What if they are later found not guilty? Can they sue the ass off the government?

-- The trouble with Islam is that its punishment is hypocritical; i.e., stealing from infidels is not only permitted, but encouraged.

And the punishment is waaay too harsh. And worse of all, it is irreversible. That’s why a certain mindset of people work extra hard to limit the appeals process.

sonofwalker, the entire *premise* of "public schooling" *incorporates* communist principles of mandatory-attendance to coercively-funded "education" camps run by apparacheks. Burn them all down. Right now…. mike Schneider

See what I’m talking about, Gary? How utterly contemptible. It is kind of cute the way Mikey heard The Savage Weiner or Rush the Drug Addict whine about the apparatchiks, and tried to use a big word and messed it up. Or rather, it WOULD be cute if he weren’t talking about burning down schools. Hey Mike, do you want those schools empty before you destroy them or shall we do it “McVeigh Style”?

And of course, Gary finds no fault with this Turner Diary-esque eliminationist rhetoric. In fact, he encourages it, thus:

First we need to change the way they are educating our kids in public schools.
By removing the Leftist teachings: http://www.historytextbooks.org/ Posted by: Gary at January 25, 2005 07:38 PM

Way to set him straight, Gary. I knew you weren’t a real compassionate conservative.

Nutcase: We need to burn down all the school. NOW!

Gary: Now, now. Let’s not be hasty. Before we burn them down, let’s “fix” all the history books first, so if any books survive the fire, they’ll be legit..

(Next, we’ll conservat-ize the the so-called “science” books and tell the kids the truth about evolution: the world is 6,000 years old, the earth is square, pi = exactly 3, the study of foreign languages goes against the Lord ©, WE were meant to rule the mudpeople. And the Jews are the children of Satan.)

Note that Gary didn’t say he was wrong, or correct him, or call him a right-wing nut, he just said that we need to fix the books before we burn the schools down.

We could do the same.

You already have. It’s called “religious school.” And if you don’t trust them either, you can always home school. Just like Andrea Yates.

CGW: It's a long shot whether you'll ever check back to this thread, but I'd like a reply to my last response to you on the DW Jan. 11 "Terrorists' Leftists . . . " thread.
Re the strikethrough feature, I've never tried it, but have you tried replacing the brackets with directional arrows?

I’m here….did you miss this part of my query?:

KJ:….I tried [strike]jihadwatch[/strike] and [strikethrough]jihadwatch[/strikethrough] (replacing ]'s with .'s, of course)

(the arrow sign goes away.)

I tried it right, but thanks anyway.

I can never find the old comments unless it was a comment about the topmost article of the day. Just ask me again in this (or any future) comment.

kj:

The comment I'm referring to is the second-to-last on the DW Jan.11 "Terrorists' Leftists . . ." thread. Scroll down almost all the way to the bottom of the thread and you'll see it.

CGW

kj:

I asked someone who knows who said that the code is strike and /strike between directional arrows. It didn't work here at JW but it works fine at LGF (I just tried previewing at both places).

CGW

NO-ONE deserves to be lashed 80 times. No-one deserves to be lashed even once.

It's truly barbaric.

You are a jackass, kj. And so I will be one amongst hundreds of millions of Americans who will breath a sigh of relief when your belief system comes crashing down alongside islam.

'Next, we’ll conservat-ize the the so-called “science” books and tell the kids the truth about evolution: the world is 6,000 years old, the earth is square, pi = exactly 3, the study of foreign languages goes against the Lord ©, WE were meant to rule the mudpeople. And the Jews are the children of Satan.)' ~kj

And you are a lying god-damned son of a bitch to boot.

Gary: "Waaah! Waaah!"

Go back to your socialist country, turncoat. You still haven't explained your "dual citizenship." Did you get that back during 'Nam, or what?

If the God of the bible is in charge, He blesses me, because I bless the descendents of Abraham (the Jews).

Leave my mother out of this.

Alright, I finally got it... if you want to read or respond to an ancient post, one already off the home screen, you click on the post's date on the upper left margin of the home screen. The topmost post of that day will be displayed, and if you want to see the other posts from that day, click the links shown at the top of that page. Thus did I retrieve CGW's last question for me from the comments on the "Leftist Terror PR Machine" article:

I don't believe that this forum (at least for me personally) is the place for me to display my affiliations or beliefs, other than anti-jihadism, anti-dhimmitude, patriotism and the belief in the utter superiority of and inevitable continuous development of Enlightened Western Civilization.

I agree wholeheatedly.

I only ask that you don't pigeon-hole me because many of your assumptions would be wrong. Many here are ideologically closer to you than you realize but are put off by harsh rhetoric from both sides.

I don't purposely pigeonhole but when I say something in defene of liberals and/or against con-reps and get a bunch of replies, I tend to chunk them all together.

That there are a lot of liberals here is disturbing to me because so many people here talk about how bad liberals are. I know you've all heard the accusations of how liberals have ruined this country, liberals let 911 happen, liberals hate America, liberals spit on veterans...I refute all of that crap. And the thing that bothers the con-naz-reps more than anything is that I do something that liberals aren't supposed to do: I fight back.

I USUALLY try to ignore the extremes from the "MARGINS" and focus on the issue at hand, without letting other, less important (to me, anyway) considerations sidetrack me.

I do too. But when I read "Clinton was offered Bin Laden's head on a platter and refused to take him into custody" and "Clinton tried to handle terrorism like a judicial matter instead of a military matter" and "Kerry will make us more vulnerable to terrorist attacks", "Al-qaeda for Kerry" etc. etc. it is hard to ignore.

(Did you like my use of caps there? Did ya, huh, did ya? :-) )

Ummmmm....yes?

BTW, my point about screaming vs. shouting, despite what the dictionary may say, is that screaming implies hysteria, while shouting may just be a warning, or used when someone is too distant to hear normal speech, etc. (although it may also be used to display anger and other negative emotions). Either way, my intent was to "question loudly". :-)

That's a strange defense for using a word, th start it out with "despite what the dictionary may say..." Sounds like ca-ca from the get-go. Kind of like "No matter what the fossil record says, we should teach that the earth is only 6,000 years old"... or "No matter what these pointy-headed, intellectual, ivory-tower, "geneticists" say, we all know that some races are clearyly superior to others."

kj: I give the red-ass. I believe the term you're looking for is "chap ass", as in "I chap ass". ;-)

Yeah, that may be in common use where you live, but here in the land of cotton I use the local vernacular.

Here's hoping for that JW convention, my brother!

Man, that would be great! A round of Guiness on me!

CGW

KJ the LLLL

I didn't knew if Singapore was a Muslim Country???

Washington Post, 5 May 1994
Singapore Reduces American's Sentence
Teen's Parents Still Angry at 4-Lash Edict
By William Branigin
Washington Post Foreign Service

SINGAPORE, May 4 -- Singapore today reduced the caning sentence of American teenager Michael Fay from six strokes to four in a "gesture" to President Clinton, but the compromise failed to appease Fay's still fuming parents.

Noting that Clinton appealed privately for clemency and commented on the case publicly three times, the government said in a statement, "To reject his appeal totally would show an unhelpful disregard for the president and the domestic pressures on him on this issue."

It added, however, that it "found no merit" in Fay's appeal to be spared the painful punishment for spray-painting cars, which was handed down March 31 along with a four-month jail term and a $2,230 fine.

"They are trying to do this for President Clinton, but it is a slap in the face for the president," Fay's mother, Randy Chan, told reporters here after the decision was announced. "I am grateful for the reduction, but it does not make it any different for him. If this is their idea of helping, it does not do that at all."

In Dayton, Ohio, George Fay, the teenager's father, called the government's action "ludicrous", the Associated Press reported. "As far as I'm concerned, four strokes or six strokes does not matter. There should be no caning at all. It's a barbaric punishment being applied to an innocent."

The government said it would consider similar reductions for other youths convicted in the same case.

Observers now expect the sentence to be carried out soon, but Singapore has said it would not announce when Fay would be caned or give him advance notice. Chan saw her son Tuesday and is next permitted to visit him in two weeks.

In the harshest verdict in the case so far, the same judge who sentenced Fay decreed 12 strokes of the cane and eight months in jail for a 17-year-old student from Hong Kong last month.

The youth had pleaded not guilty and claimed that his confession in October was beaten out of him by police. Fay pleaded guilty after plea bargaining and did not challenge his confession in court, although he later asserted that it was extracted by police coercion.

Fay, 18, is currently serving his jail sentence in Queenstown Road Remand Prison. With time off for good behavior, he should be released June 21.

In its statement today, the government said Clinton based his appeal for commutation of the caning on Fay's youth, his status as a first offender and his personal situation.

The government said it "found no special circumstances" that justified commuting the sentence entirely and could not "exempt him from all six strokes without undermining its ability to enforce future caning ordered by the courts."

"However," it added, "the government values Singapore's good relations with the United States and the constructive economic and security role of the United States in the region."

Earlier, Singapore's minister for law and foreign affairs, Shanmugam Jayakumar, strongly defended this tiny city-state's right to cane Fay. In a speech to an international lawyers' convention, he said critics of the sentence, especially in the U.S. media, had unleashed a "hysterical campaign" and showed "unprecedented naiveté" in trying to make Singapore "cave in".

He said "no Singapore government can govern effectively if its citizens see the government as having succumbed to U.S. press pressure."

The speech offered a stark defense of Singapore's strict laws, including mandatory death penalties for drug dealers and "preventive detention" without trial for "vicious gangsters and notorious drug traffickers" who cannot be convicted because "no one dares to testify."

Jayakumar also drew attention to what he said was probably "the world's strictest gun-control law". Anyone who fires an unauthorized gun while committing a serious offense gets the death penalty "whether or not the bullet killed, injured or even hit anyone," he said.

"We view such a gunman as a terrorist," he said. "So it is not 'three strikes, you are out,' but 'one shot and you hang, even if you miss.' Consequently, we have very few firearm offenses despite being in a region where the trafficking of firearms is rampant."

Jayakumar said it is up to the Singaporean government to ensure that violent crime does not spread "to the same extent as it has in the U.S."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Daily Mail, London, 6 May 1994
Thrashed with a bamboo [sic] rod
By Richard Shears in Singapore
THEY came for Michael Fay in the middle of a tropical downpour.

He was led without fuss through concrete corridors to the caning room and thrashed four times on his bare buttocks with a bamboo rod.

It was the moment he had been praying would never come. It was the moment President Clinton had tried to prevent. But it was the moment that sent a message to all Westerners in Singapore: "Don't break our laws."

The 18-year-old American, sentenced for vandalising cars with spray paint, had promised his parents, his girlfriend and the lawyers who were his last visitors that he would be brave. Last night no-one outside Singapore's Queenstown Remand Centre knew whether he had lived up to his words.

Disaster
But the controversy which has raged over him for weeks continued. A frustrated Mr Clinton denounced the flogging as "a mistake", but was being urged by senior advisers that any attempt at retaliation in trade sanctions would be a political and personal disaster because the majority of electors were behind Singapore, where the streets are virtually crime-free.
The President had appealed privately to Singapore for clemency but succeeded only in having the sentence reduced from six strokes to four. Last night the State Department said it was "weighing up an appropriate response".

Immediately after the punishment a prison doctor checked Fay and pronounced him to be in a "satisfactory condition".

Later, as he lay alone and in agony face down on the bed of his cell, his flesh red and swollen and smothered with antiseptic, his mother Mrs Randy Chan pleaded to be allowed to visit him today "as a humanitarian gesture."

"I cannot bear to think of him lying in pain in that prison with no-one to reach out to," she wept. "To keep me from him at a time like this is the ultimate punishment for all of us, not just Mike. Why punish the whole family? I just need to see him. I'm his mother. Is it so much to ask now that this terrible thing has been carried out? Why continue to punish him?"

In the U.S., his father George was furious. "I'm going to do everything in my power to persuade Washington to impose trade sanctions against Singapore. They can't torture young people like this and be allowed to get away with it."

No-one had been expecting the punishment to be carried out yesterday. Fay had been in good spirits when, at 11.45am, his lawyers called at the 40-year-old remand centre, a blue and cream painted complex of cell and accommodation blocks guarded by armed Gurkhas where Fay is serving a four-month prison sentence.

Unlike his mother, stepfather Marco and a schoolfriend the day before, the lawyers did not enter the visiting area, where prisoners are separated by a glass screen. Instead they met the boy in a special advocates' room with just a table between them.

Although he has access to the local newspaper, Fay had not read the news emblazoned across the front page that morning stating that as a result of appeals by Mr Clinton he was to receive four strokes instead of six.

"Well that's pretty good news, but I'd like to avoid this altogether," he told lawyer Dominic Nagulendran. "I think it's great that so many people have tried to save me from this thing and when I go back to America I'm going to ring up the President and invite him around to dinner to thank him for all that he's tried to do for me."

He told them how he prayed twice a day and had found a great deal of support in the prison chaplain.

But then, said Nagulendran, the thought that he would still be caned seemed to "come down very heavily on him."

"He admitted he was scared about what was going to happen. But he also wanted us to know, as well as his family and girlfriend, that he was going to grit his teeth and take it like a man.

"He wanted to make that point very clear to us. No matter what was going through his mind, he was going to try to shut out the pain and just hang in there and take it."

Scene straight from the Middle Ages
"Tell my mother not to worry about me," he urged Nagulendran. "I know how much she's suffering through all this, but please let her know that I'm quite OK and remind her that I'll be out of here in less than seven weeks now."
But even as the young prisoner was asking the lawyers to tell his local Eurasian girlfriend, Tress, that he was thinking of her all the time, senior jail officials were checking off the list of inmates who were to receive the cane that afternoon.

There were to be ten of them, including Fay.

In the pale green caning room, a prison officer checked a number of 1.2 metre long, 13mm thick rattan rods that had been left standing in a can of water to soften them up and prevent splitting.

When his lawyers left at 1.15pm, Fay, dressed in traditional prison garb of white T-shirt and blue shorts, was escorted from the advocates' room back to his cell deep within the prison complex.

He had brightened it up with greetings cards from his family and friends and on a small table were the books his mother had brought to him the day before -- thriller novels from the best-selling list.

Shortly after he arrived back a senior prison officer came to the cell. Others sentenced to the same punishment were rounded up and taken to a waiting area adjoining the caning room.

There have been conflicting reports on whether those waiting can hear the cries of those being caned. Some prisoners ask to have a piece of rag to put between their teeth so they have something to bite on.

Fay's fellow prisoners were nervous too. Some were also there for vandalism, others for theft and assault. But Fay stood out. He was the first American to go through this and was the focal point of international controversy.

It is not known in what order the group were taken into the room, but when Fay, now stripped of his T-shirt and shoes, was led in he was confronted by a scene that could have come straight from the Middle Ages.

On the far side of the room was a wooden easel-like structure -- the caning rack. What his reaction was to the A-shaped frame has not been disclosed by the authorities, but there was little time in any case for his eyes to dwell on it.

The prison doctor now moved in to check his heart rate and ensure he was in a condition to receive the designated four strokes.

Sitting on a small platform at the far end of the room was the prison superintendent who must be present at all canings. Along with the doctor were three prison officers -- one to secure Fay to the frame, another to inflict the punishment and a third to officially record the number of strokes.

His checks completed, the doctor informed the superintendent that the American was in a fit condition to receive the punishment.

Fay was then led to the frame, where he was told to remove his shorts. He was ordered to bend over a padded bar running between the two nearest uprights and his ankles were then strapped with leather cuffs to the bottom of each upright. His wrists were strapped to the struts of the rear uprights.

A small pillow was placed across his back just above the buttocks to protect his spine from any damage should the cane land in the wrong place.

Fay was now ready. It was a scene that, whatever his degree of guilt, he could never have imagined as he ran with a group of youths last autumn while they spray-painted cars.

One of the prison officers, chosen because of his physical fitness, picked out a cane, cleaned off the water, then wiped it down with antiseptic.

He walked over to the spreadeagled youth, lined up the cane, raised it back high over his shoulder and brought it down hard.

The doctor, positioned close to the frame, took a careful look at Fay to ensure he had not fainted or bitten his lips or tongue.

He nodded to the prison officer. The cane came down again. And again. And again. There would have been two more had President Clinton's appeal not been heeded.

Fay was unstrapped and checked by the doctor, who also dabbed the welling flesh with more antiseptic.

The teenager was then helped back to his cell. According to others who have been caned, it would have been the longest walk he had ever made.

Singapore takes pride in its low crime rate, brought about, says the government, because of its tough penalties. Anyone who fires a gun during a robbery -- even if the bullet does not hit anyone -- receives the death sentence.

But for Mrs Chan, caning is not the answer. Just one hour before the announcement that her son had received his punishment she said that caning, whether six or four strokes, was torture.

Fay, who has lived in Singapore since 1992 with his divorced mother and stepfather, is expected to be released from jail on June 21 as the government has reduced his four-month sentence.

His family plan to put him on the first plane out of Singapore. With a criminal conviction he would not be able to return, but, said his mother: "We wouldn't want to come back here anyway."

Check the web site for pictures of slashing...

No further comments...

Is Canada A Muslim Country???

The Canadian Prison Strap
by Colin Farrell
With additional research by "Diogenes"

Part 1: The Official View

Canadian prisons used the strap in a rather more formal and 'British' manner than US prisons. Until around 1970 it was an official punishment for breaches of prison discipline in Canada, but prisons were also responsible for administering judicial c.p. ordered by courts as part of a sentence.

According to the Report of the Canadian Committee on Corrections (the "Ouimet Committee") of March 1969, between 1957 and 1967 the strap was used on 332 occasions in penitentiaries as a disciplinary measure, giving an average of 30 strappings per year:

1957: 15
1958: 16
1959: 24
1960: 12
1961: 67
1962: 18
1963: 96
1964: 26
1965: 7
1966: 32
1967: 19
These figures apply only to the federal-level institutions. In provincial jails, it was stated that Manitoba was by 1967 the only province still using the strap.

Its use by the courts was less frequent than for reasons of prison discipline: in 1954 it was ordered 14 times.

The relevant legislation for judicial c.p., re-enacted in 1970 as section 668 of the Criminal Code, is summarised as follows in Crime and its Treatment in Canada, ed. W.T. McGrath (Macmillan of Canada, 1965):

Where whipping is an authorized punishment, the court may sentence a convicted offender to be whipped on one, two, or three occasions. The court is required to specify the number of strokes to be administered on each occasion, but there is no limit to the number of strokes that it may specify. A sentence of whipping must be carried out under the supervision of a medical officer. The cat-o'-nine-tails is to be used, unless some other instrument is specified in the sentence. The instrument most frequently used nowadays is a strap.

The strap is smooth leather, three-sixteenths of an inch thick, fifteen inches long and three inches wide, attached to a leather handle that is twelve inches long. The strap is perforated by eight holes, each one-quarter of an inch in diameter, spaced two and one-half inches apart.

The officer in charge of the prison determines when a sentence of whipping is to be executed, but the Code requires that, whenever practicable, this shall be not less than ten days before the expiration of any term of imprisonment. The law prohibits the whipping of females.

The Penitentiary Regulations require that sentences of whipping be carried out in as humane a manner as possible in the presence of as small a group of officers as is reasonable in the circumstances.

It is a sign of the times -- and of modern correctional thinking -- that the list of offences for which whipping may be imposed is steadily diminishing. Generally speaking, it is now reserved for those offences that involve violence or the threat of violence: rape and attempted rape, indecent assault, armed burglary and robbery, choking or strangling or suffocating another person, administering or attempting to administer a stupefying or overpowering drug or other substance. However, it is also authorized as a punishment for incest and sexual intercourse with a female under fourteen years of age, offences in which violence is not necessarily an element.

This legislation was repealed in 1972.

For further details we turn to the Canadian parliament's Committee on Capital and Corporal Punishment and Lotteries of 1953-55.

An early witness was the Director of Public Prosecutions for Ontario, W.B. Common QC. He listed the 11 offences for which whipping could be awarded at that time, each with its maximum sentence of some years imprisonment plus whipping. He stressed that all these sentences combinations were discretionary, but that courts would opt for shorter prison terms where c.p. was included.

Mr Common felt there could be greater use of judicial c.p. for offenders in the 16-18 age bracket, and emphasised the deterrent value of the humiliation involved in being strapped on the bare buttocks. In reply to the committee's questions, he described the dimensions of the strap and the method of its infliction.

Read extracts from the evidence of W.B. Common QC

The next witness was R.M. Allan, Warden of Kingston Penitentiary, with 41 years' experience as a prison officer.

He, too, felt that the strap was an effective deterrent for youths aged 16 to 24, and most particularly for the "restless type of boy" between 18 and 21. He claimed that, far from being embittered by the experience, inmates sometimes asked to have more strokes in exchange for a shorter prison term, and he quoted one aged 24 who thought he would have stayed out of prison had he received the punishment earlier in his criminal career.

For internal prison discipline offences, too, Mr Allan was adamant that wardens must retain the power to order the strap.

The Warden went on to explain, with the aid of photographs (sadly not reproduced in the report), how the strappings were carried out. He described the equipment used in detail.

Interestingly, he disapproved of spreading the punishment out in instalments over an inmate's period in prison, as ordered by some courts. He thought it better to administer the whole of the strokes as soon as possible after the man's arrival.

Warden Allan also revealed that the cat was never used at Kingston, always the strap. He thought the strap a more effective instrument, and would be in favour of a change in the legislation to do away with the cat altogether.

Read extracts from the evidence of R.M. Allan

Another witness with direct personal experience to pass on to the committee was Colonel G. Headly Basher, Deputy Minister for Reform Institutions in Ontario. He made no bones about his view that CP, which he preferred to call "spanking", was essential in prisons. He also claimed that whereas the federal penitentiaries used a strap with holes in it, there were no perforations in the Ontario provincial strap. This conflicts with the evidence of Roger Caron, who received it himself -- though he can hardly have been in a position to inspect it closely -- and said that it contained "hundreds of tiny holes". Caron may here simply be regurgitating prison folklore, possibly based on confusion between the federal and the provincial strap.

Colonel Basher added that in his institution the offender is tied to a frame rather than a table, in the standing and not a bending position. He admitted to having "had several young men spanked" while in charge of Guelph reformatory (actually a prison for young adult men) over six years, but stressed that the strap was not given to those under 16.

(Guelph had been the scene of a major riot in 1952 after which 50 ringleaders had been strapped. Prison staff told the press they thought the riot was partly a result of the strap not being used enough.)

Colonel Basher also brought along with him some figures showing that of 106 inmates "given a spanking over a period", only seven required "a second application for further misconduct".

Finally, he listed the offences against prison discipline for which the strap may be ordered.

Read extracts from the evidence of Colonel G. Headly Basher

This view of CP's efficacy was not shared by Hugh Christie, Warden of Oakalla Prison Farm in British Columbia. His evidence implies that, in that Province, court sentences of strapping were not always coupled with a term of imprisonment:

"Corporal punishment has been necessary when alternative methods have not been available. There will be no excuse for it when facilities are provided, which should be in the very near future.

"Not too long ago I had five youngsters in from [courts in] Vancouver Island to be paddled -- one very normal youngster and four very disturbed delinquents -- ages between 16 and 25. The normal lad said 'By golly, I had this coming to me. Let's get it over with', and he signed a waiver of right to appeal and was paddled. Five paddles. I don't think it did any harm and after the paddling was over we shook hands and he said 'By golly this is not for me' and it will be interesting to see if he comes back. Most people we paddle do. The other four lads were very bitter and said 'We are not going to accept this'. They appealed the case and none of them was paddled and they went back to the community ....."

Professor C.W. Topping, of the Sociology Department at United College, Winnipeg, told the committee that the school of sociology to which he belonged had no objection in principle to corporal punishment, adding:

"My surveys in 1934 and 1925 found a surprising number of persons associated with the delinquency services in favour of the use of the strap in certain conditions. Superintendent C.F. Neelands cited many cases of boys full of animal spirits who, having caused trouble in the shops, were strapped and returned to work. If he had placed these boys in the cells he would have made heroes out of them; as it was, their inability to seat themselves merely drew smiles from the other inmates .....

Colonel Pepper and I laid down the following restrictions for the use of the strap at British Columbia Boys' Industrial School, in our departmental report to the provincial secretary:

1) Public administration should never be permitted (it was routine at the school).

2) Authorisation must be by the superintendent.

3) Must be inflicted with regulation instrument.

4) Number of strokes should never exceed 10 without specific authorisation by the Attorney-General.

5) It should never be administered by the attendant against whom an action has been taken by an inmate.

6) A second attendant should always be present to see that the number of strokes is not exceeded and to prevent an inmate making a false statement concerning what happened."

Dr M.S. MacLean, a former jail surgeon from Welland County, Ontario, stated in evidence to the committee that he had seen a few strappings in his time. He said that bruising was always caused; with a 5-stroke paddling, "the party administering the punishment would be able to lay them over the buttocks so as not to overlap, and so the physical damage would not be too severe". But during strappings of more than five strokes the buttocks would normally start bleeding.

He added that in county jails (as distinct from federal penitentiaries) ten-stroke paddlings were administered all at once rather than in two lots of five. However, there was no possibility of permanent injury.

The consultant psychiatrist at Burwash Industrial Farm, Dr Thomas P. Dixon, informed the committee that in that institution 18 men received the strap in 1951 (17 by the superintendent and one by a judge), 12 men in 1952 (8 by the superintendent and 4 by a judge), and 8 men in 1953 (7 by the superintendent and one by a judge). Dr Dixon continued:

"My main contention is that corporal punishment in an institution of that kind is necessary to maintain control over the prison population ... I think it should be in the control of the superintendent alone because otherwise, if no such physical punishment is given, it will very soon be taken over by the other junior custodial officers in secret ... and pretty soon the superintendent will lose control.
"In the instance of ... the inmate who struck an elderly prisoner, if he had not received corporal punishment from the custodial staff he would have received it from the inmates."

In an attempt to discover whether there was much variation between provinces as far as their own institutions were concerned, the committee sent a questionnaire to the government of each province. Alberta and Saskatchewan stated that CP was never used as a disciplinary measure in their local prisons, only when ordered by the court as part of the sentence. British Columbia sent the most detailed replies, of which the following are extracts:

Q. What persons are ordinarily present?

A. "Doctor, warden and sufficient staff to obscure identity of person administering paddle."

Q. What is the maximum number of strokes administered at any one session?

A. No stated maximum. Ten strokes is the maximum observed at one time."

Q. What is the procedure in detail?

A. "Doctor checks inmate's ability to take punishment. Inmate is strapped to a table, hood is placed over head, ankles and wrists fastened and he is held by officers over shoulders and back. Pants are allowed to drop. Paddle is administered by one of a number of officers at the direction of the Warden. Doctor is in attendance. Warden talks with inmate after punishment and also officers are warned against discussion of details. Record signed by Warden and Doctor."

Q. Does corporal punishment in your opinion operate as a deterrent to the young offender?

"There seems to be some evidence of paddling having been useful in helping young offenders to redirect their activity."

Manitoba sent in broadly similar replies. There seems to be no information from Quebec.

The 1953-55 committee felt unable to arrive at any conclusion as to the retention or abolition of CP and merely recommended that another committee be set up to study the question further!

In Part 2 of this article we consider the opinions of some men who had actually received the strap and their descriptions of the ordeal.

Check the web site http://www.corpun.com/canada.htm

Same is true for China...

Shanghai Star, 9 October 2003
Citizen Cane
By Xing Bao

IT is not uncommon for angry Chinese parents to give their children a thrashing on the buttocks as a punishment for mischief.

In fact, such physical punishment, which has existed for thousands of years in China, has been widely employed by teachers, judges and even emperors on students, criminals and officials.

In Chinese, the lash is formally called the bianchi with both "bian" and "chi" bearing the meaning of "flogging".

The earliest record of the lash can be dated back to the Zhou Dynasty (c. 11th century-256 BC) when teachers punished students in this way. The measure was gradually adopted as a means to punish crime.

Painful shame
In "The Dignity of Buttocks", a book which illustrated the use of lash in China's long history, the writer, with the pen name Zhu Ke, said that the lash even served as the trigger for the Chensheng-Wuguang Insurgency during the Qin Dynasty (221-206 BC), the first recorded rural uprising in Chinese history.

According to historians, after Chen and Wu, the two leaders, had fully prepared for the rebellion, Chen deliberately irritated the officials who escorted him and other farmers. When the officials were about to flog Chen, the furious farmers standing around, who had become dissatisfied with the governor, killed the official and ultimately overthrew China's first imperial dynasty.

Although Confucianism finally became the dominant ideology during the Han Dynasty (206 BC-AD 220) and prevailed throughout China over the subsequent millennia, many experts accept that China's ancient societies also remained attached to the Legalist's creed, which upheld the sovereignty of the law and its attendant severe punishments.

Accordingly, during the Han Dynasty, the lash became a formal penalty, but still a minor one compared with other corporal punishments such as cutting off fingers or noses.

According to historical records, at that time there was a man sentenced to a corporal penalty whose daughter asked to suffer the punishment in her father's place.

This greatly moved the emperor, who asked for the - relatively humane - lash to be used to punish the man, proceeding to abolish mutilations while keeping the lash as a substitute.

From this point the size and material composition of the instrument became clearly defined. Typically, the instrument of pain was a long cane made of bamboo or wood.

Zhu Ke, the writer, said the substitution of the lash for crueler corporal punishments revealed a forward movement of civilization.

"The great pain caused by the lash worked very effectively as a punishment for wrong-doers, while the flogging also had an educational effect on those witnessing it," he said. "Furthermore, it was a beating on the buttocks, and sometimes wrong-doers would have their trousers pulled down before the lashing, which added a feeling of shame."

These three effects of the lash - pain, deterrence and shame - coincided well with the strong paternal power in traditional Chinese families, so the lash also became popular in households for punishing both offspring and servants.

In "A Dream of Red Mansions", one of the four most renowned ancient Chinese novels, there is vivid description of the hero Jia Baoyu suffering the lash at the hand of his father.

Deadly punishment
Although the formal introduction of the lash as a penalty might be seen as a mark of social progress, its ever wider use betrayed the original intention behind its adoption.

Deaths caused by the lash were not rare in ancient China, especially during the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644), when the lash had become a frequent punishment for officials who provoked the emperor.

During the regime of Zhu Yuanzhang, the founder of the Ming Dynasty, at least five senior officials were beaten to death.

"The use of the lash by emperors on official reached its peak during the Ming Dynasty," the writer said.

Such a phenomenon seems to confirm a view shared by some historians who have argued that the Ming Dynasty may have been the darkest period in China's imperial history.

Under a number of succeeding emperors, there were similar reports of the emperor sentencing whole groups of officials to the lash for various reasons. In 1518, due to a dispute at court, a total of 146 senior officials were severely lashed, resulting in 11 deaths. Later, in a similar case, of 134 officials punished, 17 died.

The lash was finally abolished as a penalty during the late Qing Dynasty (1644-1911), when China launched a campaign to imitate Western ways, developing industry and modifying laws. The lash was eliminated from the list of criminal penalties in 1909, two years before the end of the Qing Dynasty and the termination of China's imperial system.

However, flogging the buttocks did not die out in family education.

The writer of "The Dignity of the Buttocks" said that, as a way to educate children, the punishment existed for quite a long time in Chinese families.

"However, the difference between flogging today and in ancient times is the disappearance of the special instrument," he said.

"A broom or even hands are now common substitutes for the ancient lash."