Jihad Watch director Robert Spencer follows up on the FrontPage symposium on women's rights in Islam with this piece, also in FrontPage, commenting on a Christian Science Monitor puff piece about Latina women converting to Islam:
The Christian Science Monitor this week introduces us to an American Latina, Jasmine Pinet, who “has found greater respect as a woman by converting to Islam.” Ms. Pinet praises Muslim men for their respect for women: “They’re not gonna say, ‘Hey mami, how are you?’ Usually they say, ‘Hello, sister.’ And they don’t look at you like a sex object.” The Monitor reports that there are 40,000 Latin American Muslims in the United States today, and that “many of the Latina converts say that their belief that women are treated better in Islam was a significant factor in converting.”For readers who might find this surprising — given the burqa, polygamy, the prohibition of women drivers in Saudi Arabia, and other elements of the Islamic record on women that are well known in the West — the Monitor quotes Leila Ahmed, professor of women’s studies and religion at Harvard: “It astounds me, the extent to which people think Afghanistan and the Taliban represent women and Islam.” Ahmed says that “we’re in the early stages of a major rethinking of Islam that will open Islam for women. [Muslim scholars] are rereading the core texts of Islam — from the Koran to legal texts — in every possible way.”
But did the Taliban really originate the features of Islam that discriminate against women? Will a “rereading” of the Qur’an and other core texts of Islam really help “open Islam for women”? These are some of the texts that will have to be “reread”:
1. The Qur’an likens a woman to a field (tilth), to be used by a man as he wills: “Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will” (2:223);
2. It declares that a woman’s testimony is worth half that of a man: “Get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her” (2:282);
3. It allows men to marry up to four wives, and have sex with slave girls also: “If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice” (4:3);
4. It rules that a son’s inheritance should be twice the size of that of a daughter: “Allah (thus) directs you as regards your children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females” (4:11);
5. It tells husbands to beat their disobedient wives: “Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them” (4:34).
It will take some creative rereading to blunt the force of these and other Qur’anic passages that mandate second-class status for women and consign all too many women in the Islamic world to the status of mere possessions of their husbands. That last verse has particularly troubling implications. The Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences has determined that over nine out of ten Pakistani wives have been struck, beaten, or abused sexually — for offenses on the order of cooking an unsatisfactory meal. Others were punished for failing to give birth to a male child.
It’s unlikely that the Latina women interviewed by the Monitor are unaware of such elements of Islam. The Monitor tells us that before her conversion, Pinet “began studying the Koran with a group of Muslim women.” Why, then, didn’t the Monitor ask her and the others what they thought of the above verses of the Qur’an? The longer such verses go unquestioned, the longer they will continue to be instruments of oppression for women. The Monitor could have done Muslim women a service by bringing these matters to light, thereby initiating a dialogue about women’s rights in Islam — with the potential to affect salutary change for women who suffer under the constraints of Qur’anic literalism.
But instead, not unexpectedly, the Monitor chose the easy — and PC — way out.
Good Morning everyone.
I'm moving the scheduled discussion on suggestions and ideas over to the New Years thread, so as to not clutter up the new thread.
See all of you there!
Susan_b
To enlighten the people who are ignorant about "Sati" Pratha in India, this custom was a result of Muslim oppression and brutality. The Hindu women of India, in order to save their honour, used to jump into the fire after their husbands were brutally murdered by Muslim invaders. The question that arises from this is why did they jump into the fire and kill themselves? Why didn't they just poison themselves? The reason for this is that the lecherous necrophiliac muslim invaders did not even leave the dead bodies alone. Yes, they had sex even with the dead bodies! How disappointing it must have been for them to find nothing, but ashes.
Gazzali, the renowned Islamic thinker summed up the 18 pains that had been visited on Muslim women as a punishment for Eve's transgression in paradise. The list eloquently shows the position of women in Islam and how the social customs were backed up by Islam. Here Islam goes to the extent of saying that even pregnancy and childbirth are punishments from God. Such is the nature of the all merciful Allah!!!
The 18 punishments are:
Menstruation
Childbirth
Separation from father and mother and marriage to a stranger
Pregnancy
Not having control over her own person
A lesser share in inheritance.
Her liability to be divorced and inability to divorce.
It being lawful for man to have 4 wives but for a woman to have only 1 husband.
The fact that she must stay secluded in the house
The fact that she must keep her head covered inside the house.
The fact that 2 women's testimonies have to be set against the testimony of one man.
The fact that she must not go out of the house unless accompanied by a near relative.
The fact that men take part in Friday and feast day funerals while women do not.
Disqualification for rulership and judgeship.
"...chose the easy — and PC — way out.
More precisely, that should say "financially correct" especially when considering that for all but a few fanatics, "political correctness" is all about getting re-elected, appointed, whatever, and getting the money.
Or perhaps someone would like to make a case why some conservatives seek the "PC way out."
I am not familiar with the CSM, kj. Is it Truly conservative, or do you just wish to believe that because it has the word 'Christian' in it?
When I first saw the magazine, way back in college, I had NO real political / historical knowledge- yet I don't recall being too pleased with the outlook of the magazine at the time.
Leila Ahmed, mentioned in the article above, describing all the wonderful and exciting changes in the attitude, within the world of Islam, ttoward women, is simply a higher apologist, in the Shirin-Ebadi vein. As is noted above, she never deals with the details: the precise verses, in Qur’an and hadith and the facts of Muhammad, that model of men, in the sira, that would have to be either ignored, or deleted, or interpreted away (and how you do that with the Qur’an, the immutable Word of God, is unclear – unless we all accept Christoph Luxenberg and try to aramaically re-read certain verses), and is quite a representative figure. She is now a tenured professor at Harvard Divinity School. Presenting herself as brave fighter for the rights of women, reconciling feminism with Islam, etc. etc., she fits right into the Diane-Eck-William-Graham apologists-for-Islam school of apologists on Divinity Avenue – a school for scandal.
She once claimed that when living in Egypt she had been on the verge of converting to Christianity, but at the last minute had held back. If true, her holding fast to Islam turned out to have been a smart career move for the Wider World, since as an ex-Muslim, or a Muslim-turned-Christian, she would have been ignored or regarded with suspicion by the Ecks and the Grahams. Now she presentes herself as that fashionable thing, the fighter for "women's-rights-in-Islam." Plenty of conferences, rushing around, much talk. Lots of interest. But like Shirin Ebadi, the Nobel Prize-winner who still cannot bring herself to connect the mistreatment of women in Iran with Islam itself, with the canonical texts (everything bad about the situation of women in Islam has nothing to do with Islam, is all "cultural" etc. etc.), she is essentially an apologist for Islam, turning away critical scrutiny, and possible wrath, from the tenets of Islam, and the attitudes and atmospherics engendered by those tenets.
For an honest treatment of Islam by women who were born into Islam, one should start with Homa Darabi, and Azam Kamguian, and a host of Iranian women (many of them Tudeh Party supporters) in European exile. There are truth-tellers about Islam and women. The Christian Science Monitor writer, and Ebadi and Leila Ahmed, are not among them. Fatima Mernissi herself seems to have retreated from her previous bravery about the Islam-misogyny connection (about this, see the writings of Reza Afshari, in his analysis of how Islam, or rather the Shari'a, flatly contradicts every major right in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights).
There is one more point about all this emphasis on women. No doubt it is important. So is the mistreatment of homosexuals. So is the failure of Islam to permit freedom of conscience -- the right of apostasy, openly and without fear of retribution. So is the hostility shown any free and skeptical inquiry--which explains in a way that displeases George Saliba, the failure of science to develop within the Islamic world (once the relative freedom of the first few centuries, before the gates of ijtihad had swung shut, and the Christians and Jews whose presence, and translations, had so fructified early Islamic -- chiefly Persian -- science.
Women are treated best in the Islamic world wherever there has been an enlightened despot willing or able to constrain Islam. Four come to mind: Mohammed V of Morocco, Habib Bourguiba and his Destour Party in Tunisia, Shah Reza Pahlevi in Iran, and most important, Mustafa Kemal -- Ataturk -- in Turkey. When Ataturk gave women the right to vote, decades before they acquired that right in some European countries, he did so as part of his systematic campaign to limit the power of Islam in society and politics.
As a descendant of the Prophet, Muhammad V was better able (insulated by his putative lineage) to protect women though Morocco is still, by Western standards, primitive in its treatment of women -- but nothing like Saudi Arabia.
The Shah, though corrupt, vain, and not very initelligent (he was no Ataturk), did what he could to further women's rights. The black reaction of Islam -- in the person of the Ayatollah Khomeini -- never disappeared from Iran (just as it has not disappeared from Turkey, where Kemalism is continually being undermined among the rural and urban faithful), and came back with a vengeance. And virtually Khomeini's first official act was to lower the marriageable age of girls to nine -- and as Leila Ahmed and Shirin Ebadi and many other "Feminist" Defenders of the Faith know perfectly well, but will not admit (embarrasment? filial piety? a refusal to admit to what Islam teaches? what holds them back? what keeps those tongues so tied?), Khomeini was simply acting in accordance with what Muhammad had done, in marrying little Aisha when she was six (she carried her toys to his house), and consummating that marriage when she was nine. That is not in the Qur'an, but in the sira -- the biography of Muhammad, that Model for All Believers for All Time and All Space, al-insan al-kamil.
Finally, what if Leila Ahmed's vision were to come true, and somehow women in the Muslim world were allowed complete equality? It will not happen, but let's pretend. What would it mean for Infidels -- that is, for us? In supposdedly "secularist" (the "secularism" has been greatly exaggerated) Ba'aathist Iraq, women could drive, did not have to wear hijabs, and were free -- free to become, like Hoda Ammash, or "Dr. Germs," free to become experts in germ warfare which, of course, threatens all Infidels. Leila Khaled, the PLO airplane hijacker, was "free" -- free to hijack planes, and kidnap civiilians.
In other words, while equality for Muslim women is no doubt a good thing for them, there is no clear connection between their liberation from what is in Qur'an, hadith, and sira, and a better atttiude toward Infidels. And we, the Infidels, should in our naive enthusiasms (for "women's rights" or for "democracy" in iraq)should always keep focussed on the main thing: what do Muslims learn, in their canonical texts, about us, the Infidels? And when will they admit to what is in those texts, and what is the almost inevitable result of taking those texts quite seriously, as so many Muslims do?
One would feel less suspicious about the Leila Ahmeds of this world if, for example, they publicly denounced the persecution of the Copts, began to study the history of Jihad-conquest and imposed dhimitude (for all I know, Ahmed herself is simply the arabized descendant of Coptic ancestors, like so many Egyptian "Arabs"). And she might also look into the works on dhimmitude of Bat Ye'or (or the extensive prior scholarship of which Bat Ye'or makes such scrupulous use). And then she might go to the websites of ex-Muslims, to see what the forthright and the honest -- Azam Kamguian, say -- can tell us about the contradiction between women's rights and Islam.
That, of course, would require honesty. And it would not win much grant money, nor be regarded as quite the thing to do. But no Muslm "female reformer" should be hailed if she is unwilling to tell the truth, but engages in either or both of those classic maneuvers of evasion -- Tu Quoque (all religions treat women badly) and Taqiyya (no, Islam has nothing to do with the mistreatment of women -- I'm a Muslim woman, and I can assure you).
Embarrasment, filial piety, ingrained defensiveness about Islam keeps almost all Muslims from telling the home-truths about Islam that Infidels now demand. The more we learn, the more horrifying we find the small army of non-Muslim apologists (the Armstrongs, Espositos, Ecks, Grahams, more than half of the non-Muslim members of MESA Nostra), the more alarmed we become when even those Muslims, like Leila Ahmed, who are clearly not fanatical, and offer the appearance of reasonable, quasi-rational and Western man, still cannot admit to the Infidels that there is something, or indeed many things, in the texts of Islam that explain what Muslims believe, and why so many act as they do. They cannot admit to this, because they see no way to change those texts (in that respect, they are right). They are dreaming, hoping, that the Infidels will not really notice, or take offense, or study Islam too deeply independently of a helpful Muslim “guide” (apologist), or perhaps stick to the sanitized versions of the Qur’an, potted summaries of the sira that leave out Aisha, the Bani Qurayza, Asma bint Marwan, the raid on the inoffensive farmers of the Khaybar Oasis, and so on, and of course hardly mention, except in passing the hadith (which can be found at www.usc.edu, for those who want to start reading around in Bukhari and Muslim).
One wonders if, when a few of these pseudo-fighters-for-feminine-rights-but-please-do-not-blame-Islam get together, if they dare to even hint, only among themselves, at the truth of the matter. None of them seems close to admitting what so many people born in to Islam, and now ex-Muslims, have absolutely no difficulty identifying and analyzing. When one turns from the Leila Ahmeds or Shirin Ebadis of this world, to the works of Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina, Azam Kamguian, Anwar Shaikh, Taslima Nasrin, those Communist (Tudeh-Party) Iranian women in Stockholm (in the Middle Eastern context, the so-called “Communist Parties” in Iraq and Iran are useful instruments for the promotion of secularism), the entire membership of “maghrebins laiques” in Paris, the beautiful Ayaan Hirsi Ali now hiding from her would-be murderers somewhere in the Netherlands, and so on.
To the Christian Science Monitor, to all those who would have us believe that Muslim women claim to love their position in life (and some indeed have been brainwashed into accepting their own servitude and inferior status – so what?), one cannot say more, except:
Enough of this. Trêve de bêtises. Basta con queste stupidaggini.
Bah, I did my Master's Degree dissertation on women's position in Islam (in the then-Soviet Central Asian republics). At the time I was a bleeding heart liberal being guided by the same.
Even then, with my view that every culture has its own beauty and all cultures are equally valid (just different), I saw right through the bullshit and recognized that Islam oppresses women.
I remember being asked by someone...if I had to choose, would I rather be a woman living under the opression of communism or a woman under Islam, and I don't even hesistate. Communism was no picnic (and I lived under it in the former SU as part of my univ. studies), but I'd take that in a heartbeat over Islam.
If women like being submissive to men and obeying their every command, fine. But be honest about it instead of blathering about how Islam is so wonderful to women.
The Islamic world treats women like dangerous pets. To my Western mind the only reason a woman would "desire" to live under such circumstances would be because she is brainwashed and in fear of her life.
f.g.
I hate typos. :(
Just curious: are these female converts, by implication, subject to circumcision? That would definitely be a deal breaker for me.
Carol
Hugh,
Considering we are in this lead contemplating the idiocy of some latina women, I take the liberty to suggest that next time you add to your poliglotist trilogy:
"Enough of this. Trêve de bêtises. Basta con queste stupidaggini."
the Spanish equivalent sentence: ¡Dejémonos de gilipolleces!, which a bit rude (not much) but rather adequate to the case.
Robert, What I'm going to do is to take the whole symposium (4 parts) and write down only the Koran verses and the Hadiths, plus any comments in your summary. I'll be able to use some of this in the Mosques. It's really amazing how many new converts are given "the Militant lie" about Islam. It was the same with me. I believed their BS at first until I did some digging. RSH
RSH:
Thanks, but there are plenty more where those came from.
One example off the top of my head -- I don't think Ali Sina or I quoted this one in the Symposium:
Muhammad says:
“After me, I have not left any Fitnah (trial and affliction) more harmful to men than women” (Sahih Bukhari, vol. 7, book 67, no. 5096).
And “evil omen is in three things: The horse, the woman and the house” (Sahih Bukhari, vol. 4, book 56, no. 2858).
The citation numbers are from the print version, not the online version, of Bukhari, but I am sure you could find them in the online version easily with a search.
Best
Robert Spencer
Can anyone explain to me why non-muslim women convert to islam? What is the secret of the puritanical tempation?
What is it really that brings those Latina (and white) women to turn to a religion that restricts their freedom?
Most, although not all, do it upon marriage to a Muslim man. They are the type who will do anything for a man. Sad, isn't it?
"I am not familiar with the CSM, kj. Is it Truly conservative, or do you just wish to believe that because it has the word 'Christian' in it?"
I don't think anyone familiar with the Christian Science Monitor would call it conservative. For that matter, I don't think anyone familiar with the Christian Science religion would call it Christian (defining that term as belief in the bare minimum set forth in the Apostle's Creed). For starters, Christian Scientists deny original sin, the Trinity, the divinity of Our Lord, and his redemptive sacrifice.
Can anyone explain to me why non-muslim women convert to islam? What is the secret of the puritanical tempation?
What is it really that brings those Latina (and white) women to turn to a religion that restricts their freedom?
Posted by: Bernadette de Wit at January 3, 2005 02:31 PM
I would like to say one thing I would like to know how many people continue in islam 10 years later of that, Islam works very well in these ignorant people, but the reality teaches, like we say in my country "the letter, with blood, come in,"
Thank you, Seamus. I was pretty sure I knew better than to believe kj's rantings. And I was right!
Here's a related story from Arab News. A (apparently) well known Saudi newsreader was badly beaten by her husband, but had trouble getting a divorce because the judge didn't want to give the divorce without the abuser's consent. I'm a man, so I'd rather hear "Hey, Papi", or even "Hey, Mami", than get my face slammed into a tile floor, but what do I know.
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=57013&d=4&m=1&y=2005
My son had a married couple as roommates. The couple were having difficulties and eventually divorced. They all work at the Capitol in the city where I live but in different departments.
One day my son ran into this room mates ex. She was covered in hijab from head to toe. She told him she'd thrown out all of her western clothes. She'd met a handsome young Arab Muslim and you know the rest. He told her how she was being devalued and how women are honored in Islam. This is the crux and I think the turning point for some female converts -- the total BS about how they're revered by Islamic society, honored and will be treated with so much more respect and not merely like a piece of meat.
They buy this sh*t and it isn't long after the honeymoon that grim reality hits the fan baby.
This is more common than you'd think in Israel where a Jewish girl is totally isolated from her family (who in most cases disown her )...
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=74580
Why western women convert to Islam? I can think of two factors that make ignorant, hapless women the unfortunate victims of the barbarians.
1. The politically correct and influential main stream media act like a shield against genuine exposure of REAL Islam, which is a biggest advantage
for aggressive proselytization.
2. There is no alternative system that can effectively counter Islam, like how christianity did in the past in Spain and Greece against Islamisation.
Hi friends,
Its not only latinas but many other women who are converting. I would like to discuss and share info regarding this topic as it is contrary to what the world expects.
I am online on this id--- silcotron@yahoo.co.in
Everyone expects women to despise Islam, then why does it attract some women???
The comparison goes on and on, to hear from some of these Converts,
including Nuns, and Many Famous People, visit here;
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/newmuslims/
Why are so many Women converting to Islaam?
According to "The Almanac Book of Facts", the population increased
137% within the past decade; Christianity increased 46%, while Islam
increased 235%.
In a recent poll in the (US), 100,000 people per year in America
alone, are converting to Islam. For every 1 male convert to Islam, 4
females convert to Islam, Why?
It is Clear why Christians are converting.
1. Christian Scientists are declaring the Quraan is from God.
Visit Here for Christian and atheist Scientists who convert to Islam
and why: http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-
say/ch13.htm
2. The Christian Bishops and Priests are admitting the Bible
has tensions. http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-
say/ch2.1.html
3. Jesus is a Muslim:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/4229/jam.html
The question still remains, why are more women converting than men
to Islaam? Perhaps they realize their Soul is worth the Factual
Research.
1. The Bible Convicts Women as the original Sinners, (i.e. Eve
picking from the forbidden tree){Genesis 2:4-3:24}. The Quraan
Clarifies it was Adam Not Eve {Quraan 7:19-25}
2. The Bible says, "The Birth of a Daughter is a loss"
{Ecclesiasticus 22:3}. The Quraan says both are an Equal Blessing
{Quraan 42:49}
3. The Bible Forbids Women from Speaking in church {I
Corinthians 14:34-35}. The Quraan says Women Can argue with the
Prophet {58:1}
4. In the Bible, divorced Women are Labeled as an Adulteress,
while men are not {Matthew 5:31-32}. The Quraan does Not have
Biblical double standards {Quraan 30:21}
5. In The Bible, Widows and Sisters do Not Inherit Any Property
or Wealth, Only men do {Numbers 27:1-11} The Quraan Abolished this
male greediness {Quraan 4:22} and God Protects All.
6. The Bible Allows Multiple Wives {I Kings 11:3} In The
Quraan, God limits the number to 4 only under certain situations
(with the Wife's permission) and Prefers you Marry Only One Wife
{Quraan 4:3} The Quraan gives the Woman the Right to Choose who to
Marry.
7. "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be
married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the
girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for
he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives"
{Deuteronomy 22:28-30}
One must ask a simple question here, who is really punished, the man
who raped the woman or the woman who was raped? According to the
Bible, you have to spend the Rest of Your Life with the man who
Raped You.
The Prophet Muhammad Says {Volume 9, Book 86, Number 101} Narrated
by Aisha:" It is essential to have the consent of a virgin (for the
marriage)".
Would the Christian men Reading this prefer the Women they know to
Be Christian or Muslim?
8. The Bible also asks Women to wear veils as in Islam {I
Corinthians 11:3-10}, this lowers the chance of rape, (God Forbid).
9. Women were given rights to Vote less than a 100 years ago in
the (US), while the Quraan (42:38) gave Women Voting rights almost
1,400 years ago.
10. Islam has unconfined Women and has given them the human right to
reach for the sky. There have been Muslim Women Presidents through
out the centuries, but to this date, the oppressive mentality of the
men in the Western U.S.A. has stopped any Women from becoming
Presidents in predominately Christian countries, while the Muslim
countries have voted for and elected Female Presidents.
Here is a list of previous Female Muslim leaders:
Khadija bint Khuwaylid
Aishah bint Abu Bakr
Fatimah bint Muhammad
Barakah
Ramlah bint Abu Sufyan
Rumaysa bint Milhan
Umm Salamah
Asma bint Abu Bakr
Zaynab al-Ghazali
Maryum Jameelah
The comparison goes on and on, to hear from some of these Converts,
including Nuns, and Many Famous People, visit here;
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/newmuslims/
For more information and Statistics, visit here;
http://www.jannah.org/sisters/
In reading "Leaving Islam" (ed. Ibn Warraq), one finds the testimony of female converts (or "reverts")to Islam who, at the time of their conversion, had no idea what they are getting into. Some assume that the "tolerance " and "peace" business is true. Some believe that nonsense about hijabs and burkas being liberating, preventing one from becoming that awful thing -- a sex object. Becoming that other thing -- a zombie kept in her place -- is not understood. It is quite something to see photographs, for example, of the women sitting somberly, even glumly, their head wrapped, at table in the pages of Muslim Journal, for example (W. Deen Mohammad's newspaper), the life gone out of them.
Educated Muslim women, now being raised in the West but, for some reason, remaining loyal to Islam (the brainwashing is strong; filial piety also plays a role), have difficulties when it comes time to marry. Non-Muslim men, of course, would have to "revert" to what, by now, any intelligent non-Muslim man understands is a belief system inimical to freedom, to art, to science. In very few cases, one is not going to give that up just to marry a Muslim girl in whom one may be temporarily smitten.
And there is another reason for not marrying a Muslim girl. Or for a non-Muslim girl to convert to Islam. What happens to children, raised in Islam? This belief-system stunts the mental growth. You are forced into a condition of forevermore practicing taqiyya -- of feigning things about Islam to all your non-Muslim acquaintances (you are not permitted to think of them as friends). The more aware non-Muslims will, of course, now be in a state of permanent wariness about you, and there is nothing you can do to ally that wariness and suspicion unless you freely admit to the tenets of Islam, and to all of the details of Muhammad's life (Aisha, Bani Qurayza, Khaybar Oasis, Asma bint Marwan, etc.) And the minute you demonstrate that you are defensive about Islam -- as those so-called Muslim "feminists" who suddenly drop their interest in women's rights -- see Lila Abu-Lughodk, or Leila Ahmed, for two exmaples -- and even express anger at Western women for assuming a position of "superiority" (good god, if the non-Muslims of this world do not think that their views are superior to those in Islam, they might as well pack up now), you will lose completely any trust that your non-Muslim associates might have once, naively, put in you.
Despite the best efforts of the press, television, and our government to disguise the truth about Islam, the evidence of our senses, and of our own education (what will Muslims do? try to prevent us from reading Qur'an, hadith, and sira?), keeps bringing us quite a different picture.
Hi again,
Maybe you people don't know , when Islam was revealed in Arabia the first thing that was abolished was the Female Infanticide which the Pagans carried out.
A movie called "The Message" would be simpler to understand some thins which Islam abolished related to women.
HADITH : THE BEST AMONG YOU
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The best among you are
those who treat their wives in the best manner."
Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 217
Narrated Aisha - "(The Prophet Muhammad) never beat anyone with his hand,
neither a woman nor a servant."
Sahih Muslim, Hadith 1082
By the way , the problem is that most people here believe on hearsay etc. Why dont U talk to muslims in your own places.
The most important reason why your women revert to Islam other than reading Qoran etc is that most of Muslim husbands always are faithful to their wives and the percentage of single parents among muslim communities is negligible and on the contrary is more supporting to the women.
I would like if you also highlighted such things rather than only highlighting what u think is anti women without looking into their interpretations.
If you are really friendly to Islam and not an Islamo Basher, as U claim to be , then there must be arguements of both sides. As to otherwise you simply color yourself like a chameleon and use good words to do the same.
There is a large percentage of educated westernised Muslim women in USA, why don't they embrace other relegions????
There is no Talioban or Mullah Omar in USA to scare them. I believe USA is a free country.
Posted by: xyz at January 6, 2005 02:46 AM
Maybe you can explain thes out of your book??
WOMEN IN ISLAM:
Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”
Tabari I:280 “Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.’ Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid.”
Qur’an 4:3 “If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with orphans, marry women of your choice who seem good to you, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to do justice (to so many), then only one, or (a slave) that you possess, that will be more suitable. And give the women their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, eat it with enjoyment, take it with right good cheer and absorb it (in your wealth).”
Qur’an 4:11 “Allah directs you in regard of your Children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females…. These are settled portions ordained by Allah.”
Bukhari:V1B22N28 “The Prophet said: ‘I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful.’ When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, ‘All the favors done for them by their husbands.’”
Muslim:B1N142 “‘O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell.’ A wise lady said: Why is it, Allah’s Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: ‘You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise.’ Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, ‘Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof.’”
Qur’an 4:43 “Believers, approach not prayers with a mind befogged or intoxicated until you understand what you utter. Nor when you are polluted, until after you have bathed. If you are ill, or on a journey, or come from answering the call of nature, or you have touched a woman, and you find no water, then take for yourselves clean dirt, and rub your faces and hands. Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.” [The Qur’an claims women are unclean and polluted—worse than dirt.]
Bukhari:V4B55N547 “The Prophet said, ‘But for the Israelis, meat would not decay, and if it were not for Eve, wives would never betray their husbands.’”
Qur’an 33:59 “Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and all Muslim women to draw cloaks and veils all over their bodies (screening themselves completely except for one or two eyes to see the way). That will be better.”
Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”
Bukhari:V4B52N143/V5B59N523 “When we reached Khaybar, Muhammad said that Allah had enabled him to conquer them. It was then that the beauty of Safiyah was described to him. Her husband had been killed, so Allah’s Apostle selected her for himself. He took her along with him till we reached a place called Sad where her menses were over and he took her for his wife, consummating his marriage to her, and forcing her to wear the veil.’”
Bukhari:V5B59N524 “The Muslims said among themselves, ‘Will Safiyah be one of the Prophet’s wives or just a lady captive and one of his possessions?’”
Ishaq:593 “From the captives of Hunayn, Allah’s Messenger gave [his son-in-law] Ali a slave girl called Baytab and he gave [future Caliph] Uthman a slave girl called Zaynab and [future Caliph] Umar another.”
Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”
Ishaq:584 “Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman.”
Ishaq:185 “In hell I saw women hanging by their breasts. They had fathered bastards.”
Qur’an 24:31 “Say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty except what (must) appear; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display them except to their husbands...”
Qur’an 24:34 “Force not your slave-girls to whoredom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life. [And here’s the freedom-to-pimp card:] But if anyone forces them, then after such compulsion, Allah is oft-forgiving.”
Ishaq:469 “The Apostle said, ‘Every wailing woman lies except those who wept for Sa’d.’”
Tabari VIII:62/Ishaq:496 “Ali [Muhammad’s adopted son, son-in-law, and future Caliph] said, ‘Prophet, women are plentiful. You can get a replacement, easily changing one for another.’”
Ishaq:496 “Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.’ So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, ‘Tell the Apostle the truth.’”
Qur’an 24:1 “(This is) a surah which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful. For the woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah. And let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.”
Qur’an 24:6 “And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth.”
MAYBE YOUR ANSWER IS BECAUSE IN THE WEST WE DON'T ALLOW THIS KIND OF SH-T WE DON'T ALLOW MEN TO BEAT WOMEN THEY WILL GET PUT IN JAIL!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Amen
Posted by: Ummagumma at January 6, 2005 03:45 PM
Nothing like Islamic Terrorist in your back yard to wake you up??
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Crush ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen
PS
And by this story I'd say you have a few more things up there to worry about??
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/05/wlakh05.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/01/05/ixportal.html
Briton is accused of missile plot in US
By Tom Leonard in Newark
Filed: 05/01/2005)
A British businessman offered to sell 200 shoulder-launched missiles to be used in a plot to terrorise the United States, a court heard yesterday.
Sister Catherine
I am online at silcotron@yahoo.co.in for any comments.
Lets see some thing from your bible first
et me mention just a few verses from the Old Testament and New Testament and tell me what do you say about them:
"When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deutronomy 20:10-17)
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, sparefor yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)
Even in the New Testament we read the following statement attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:
"I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Luke 19:26-27)
Sister Catherine
I am online at silcotron@yahoo.co.in for any comments and discussions.
Lets see some thing from your bible first
Let me mention just a few verses from the Old Testament and New Testament and tell me what do you say about them:
"When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you . However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deutronomy 20:10-17)
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, sparefor yourselves . (Numbers 31:17-18)
Even in the New Testament we read the following statement attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:
"I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Luke 19:26-27)
I suggest we have a christian jihad watch also.
The King James Version (Authorized)
Deuteronomy 22: 1 - 30
Bible allows raping Virgin women
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
It was the Europeans who raped and killed thousands of Muslim women in Boisnia in the 20th century, didn't u see that???
U people talk about women's rights?? What about women raped in Abu Ghraib???
U people know only to talk against Islam but on the contrary everything you allege is practically done by your forces.
By the way Yvonne Ridley , a woman journalist was imprisoned by Taliban Regime but she was safeand untouched and later on she studied Islam and then reverted.
But what are the womanoliberator feminist rulers of west doing , raping women in Abu Ghraib and recently an Iraqi scientist woman is is on brink of death due to cancer was refused to be released by US authorities.
And I forgot , in Gitmo USA uses proptitutes to tropuble pious muslims.
The question is your regime is using women as objects and not humans to achieve their desires etc, why dont u open your eyes to see that.
I wonder why it happens that a skimpily woman model is used to market a man's lingerie on TV ads and you women digest it, but if a woman dresses modestly its called imprisonment.
Stoning adulterers is allowed in christianity
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
I will collect more details for u soon , InshaALLAH but until that u please do go through my previous post and go to the links given there.
Till then , take care
Sister Catherine
I am online at silcotron@yahoo.co.in for any comments and discussions.
Lets see some thing from your bible first
Let me mention just a few verses from the Old Testament and New Testament and tell me what do you say about them:
"When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you . However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deutronomy 20:10-17)
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, sparefor yourselves . (Numbers 31:17-18)
Even in the New Testament we read the following statement attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:
"I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Luke 19:26-27)
I suggest we have a christian jihad watch also.
The King James Version (Authorized)
Deuteronomy 22: 1 - 30
Bible allows raping Virgin women
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
It was the Europeans who raped and killed thousands of Muslim women in Boisnia in the 20th century, didn't u see that???
U people talk about women's rights?? What about women raped in Abu Ghraib???
U people know only to talk against Islam but on the contrary everything you allege is practically done by your forces.
By the way Yvonne Ridley , a woman journalist was imprisoned by Taliban Regime but she was safeand untouched and later on she studied Islam and then reverted.
But what are the womanoliberator feminist rulers of west doing , raping women in Abu Ghraib and recently an Iraqi scientist woman is is on brink of death due to cancer was refused to be released by US authorities.
And I forgot , in Gitmo USA uses proptitutes to tropuble pious muslims.
The question is your regime is using women as objects and not humans to achieve their desires etc, why dont u open your eyes to see that.
I wonder why it happens that a skimpily woman model is used to market a man's lingerie on TV ads and you women digest it, but if a woman dresses modestly its called imprisonment.
Stoning adulterers is allowed in christianity
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
I will collect more details for u soon , InshaALLAH but until that u please do go through my previous post and go to the links given there.
Till then , take care
Sister Catherine
I am online at silcotron@yahoo.co.in for any comments and discussions.
Lets see some thing from your bible first
Let me mention just a few verses from the Old Testament and New Testament and tell me what do you say about them:
"When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you . However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deutronomy 20:10-17)
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, sparefor yourselves . (Numbers 31:17-18)
Even in the New Testament we read the following statement attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:
"I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Luke 19:26-27)
I suggest we have a christian jihad watch also.
The King James Version (Authorized)
Deuteronomy 22: 1 - 30
Bible allows raping Virgin women
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
It was the Europeans who raped and killed thousands of Muslim women in Boisnia in the 20th century, didn't u see that???
U people talk about women's rights?? What about women raped in Abu Ghraib???
U people know only to talk against Islam but on the contrary everything you allege is practically done by your forces.
By the way Yvonne Ridley , a woman journalist was imprisoned by Taliban Regime but she was safeand untouched and later on she studied Islam and then reverted.
But what are the womanoliberator feminist rulers of west doing , raping women in Abu Ghraib and recently an Iraqi scientist woman is is on brink of death due to cancer was refused to be released by US authorities.
And I forgot , in Gitmo USA uses proptitutes to tropuble pious muslims.
The question is your regime is using women as objects and not humans to achieve their desires etc, why dont u open your eyes to see that.
I wonder why it happens that a skimpily woman model is used to market a man's lingerie on TV ads and you women digest it, but if a woman dresses modestly its called imprisonment.
Stoning adulterers is allowed in christianity
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
I will collect more details for u soon , InshaALLAH but until that u please do go through my previous post and go to the links given there.
Till then , take care
Sister Catherine
I am online at silcotron@yahoo.co.in for any comments and discussions.
Lets see some thing from your bible first
Let me mention just a few verses from the Old Testament and New Testament and tell me what do you say about them:
"When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you . However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deutronomy 20:10-17)
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, sparefor yourselves . (Numbers 31:17-18)
Even in the New Testament we read the following statement attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:
"I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Luke 19:26-27)
I suggest we have a christian jihad watch also.
The King James Version (Authorized)
Deuteronomy 22: 1 - 30
Bible allows raping Virgin women
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
It was the Europeans who raped and killed thousands of Muslim women in Boisnia in the 20th century, didn't u see that???
U people talk about women's rights?? What about women raped in Abu Ghraib???
U people know only to talk against Islam but on the contrary everything you allege is practically done by your forces.
By the way Yvonne Ridley , a woman journalist was imprisoned by Taliban Regime but she was safeand untouched and later on she studied Islam and then reverted.
But what are the womanoliberator feminist rulers of west doing , raping women in Abu Ghraib and recently an Iraqi scientist woman is is on brink of death due to cancer was refused to be released by US authorities.
And I forgot , in Gitmo USA uses proptitutes to tropuble pious muslims.
The question is your regime is using women as objects and not humans to achieve their desires etc, why dont u open your eyes to see that.
I wonder why it happens that a skimpily woman model is used to market a man's lingerie on TV ads and you women digest it, but if a woman dresses modestly its called imprisonment.
Stoning adulterers is allowed in christianity
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
I will collect more details for u soon , InshaALLAH but until that u please do go through my previous post and go to the links given there.
Till then , take care