More on this case, just in from AP, with thanks to JJP Mackie:
ALEXANDRIA, Va. — A former Virginia high school valedictorian who had been detained in Saudi Arabia as a suspected terrorist was charged Tuesday with conspiring to assassinate President Bush and with supporting the Al Qaeda terrorist network.Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, 23, a U.S. citizen, made an initial appearance Tuesday in U.S. District Court but did not enter a plea. He claimed that he was tortured while detained in Saudi Arabia since June of 2003 and offered through his lawyer to show the judge his scars.
The federal indictment said that in 2002 and 2003 Abu Ali and an unidentified co-conspirator discussed plans for Abu Ali to assassinate Bush. They discussed two scenarios, the indictment said, one in which Abu Ali "would get close enough to the president to shoot him on the street" and, alternatively, "an operation in which Abu Ali would detonate a car bomb."
According to the indictment, Abu Ali obtained a religious blessing from another unidentified co-conspirator to assassinate the president.
A religious blessing, eh? No doubt those Methodists again.
More than 100 supporters of Abu Ali crowded the courtroom and laughed when the charge was read aloud alleging that he conspired to assassinate Bush.When Abu Ali asked to speak, U.S. Magistrate Liam O'Grady suggested he consult with his attorney, Ashraf Nubani.
"He was tortured," Nubani told the court. "He has the evidence on his back. He was whipped. He was handcuffed for days at a time."
Has there ever been a Muslim detained by the United States on terror-related charges who wasn't tortured? These kinds of claims would have a great deal more credibility if they weren't made in every case.
UPDATE: Here is a pdf of the indictment (thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist).
Has there ever been a Muslim detained by the United States on terror-related charges who wasn't tortured? These kinds of claims would have a great deal more credibility if they weren't made in every case.
And if a captured al'Qaeda manual didn't specifically instruct their members to make that claim.
One should recall how, in the past, the Muslim connection was always scanted. When Sirhan Sirhan killed Robert Kennedy, he was described as a disgruntled "Palestinian" and no attention was given to the precise motivation for his killing.
When the Turkish would-be assassin Mehmet Agca of the Pope was seized, he was always described as a "Turkish nationalist" or "extreme right-winger." No attention was paid to his own remarks, then and now, about wanting to kill the Pope for the obvious reason: he represented, for Agca, the most important figure in the Infidel camp -- i.e., Western Christendom.
As with individuals, so with attacks on sovereign states. The attack on the southern Sudanese was undertaken because those southerners were not Muslims (in Darfur, of course, they are -- but they are blacks, and not the "best of men" the Arabs, which the Sudanese in Khartoum have allowed themselves to believe that, per contra, they are). The southerners had no rights, inalienable or otherwise; there is no conception of Natural Law in Islam. All rights for Muslims come from Allah, whatever he chooses to give you. As for non-Muslims, they have only the rights that Muslims choose to permit them, and under whatever conditions, and are always susceptible of being taken away.
The war against Israel, similarly, has never been understood -- except by a handful of Western scholars of Islam, and by a handful of ex-Muslims such as Walid Shoebat -- as a Jihad against a non-Muslim polity. The dreamy belief that by withdrawing from Gaza, or from Judea and Samaria ("West Bank" as the area was preposterously renamed by Jordan in 1948, in order to avoid any evocative -- of the Bible, of a historic Jewish connection -- toponyms), that JIhad will end, rather than simply gather its forces for a new assault, one from a militarily much more favorable position, is widespread; quite a few Israelis, including the crazed and crazily obstinate Sharon, apparently believe it. How wrong they are.
The Al Qaeda training manual is here:
http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/trainingmanual.htm
The part about claiming torture is in the last lesson.
Is it too much to ask that you wait until the man is convicted of something before you assemble the lynch mob? Or are allegations based upon "interrogation" in Saudi Arabia sufficient?
They whip people in Saudi Arabia for drinking alcohol, or having sexual relations out of wedlock. Just because he was whipped doesn't mean he was whipped for this alleged plot.
Viking, the Saudis cannot be trusted, that's for sure. However, I have no doubts that this fanatic is guilty of something. That is why they need to stop letting those from the Middle East come to live in America until all of this is figured out, or the "Jeehawd" is eliminated.
Norseman, it will probably be a year or two before he is either convicted or acquitted. By that time, it will be old news. Don't worry; he'll get a fair trial. That's what separates US and our ideological allies from Muslim countries.
Hugh, I think Sharon is just facing the demographic fact that it will become increasingly impossible to protect isolated islands of settlements in the midst of a crazy population of "palestinians." I now it is painful to have to evict settlers and shut down the settlements, and it is paiful to witness, but we have to be rational about this. Hell, leave the settlements in Gaza for all I care; just move them to abut the border with Israel.
What I don't understand is how the Israelis don't take more of the "West Bank". They could offer the "palestians" something they need: a highway connnecting Gaza and the West Bank. It will either have to go through Israel or hundreds of miles out of it's way; North through Lebanon, Syria, and Jordon or South through Egypt, the Red Sea and Jordan. If the "palestinians" expect to construct the highway through Israel, then they need to be made to give some concessions.
Check out the indictment against this *ucker. He's just the kind of anti-American middle eastern spoiled little puss* that would do this. Guilty. Put his sorry arab ass in an American prison for about 20 years.
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/AliIndictment.pdf
Is it too much to ask that you wait until the man is convicted of something before you assemble the lynch mob?
In what way is expressing an opinion "assembling a lynch mob"?
Deport the srekcuf.
That was just a test. Whatever. Let the deportations begin. (Making a list, checking it twice ...)
The suspect had not only received American citizenship, but was also "a former Virginia high school valedictorian." In other words, he had been fully accepted into American society. But Islam for him trumped all else. In that respect he was akin to so many others who are taught that loyalty to the umma al-islamiyya is the only loyalty that matters. He was like Mike Hawash, the seemingly well-integrated computer engineer for Intel, earning $360,000 a year, married to an American, with well-adjusted LittleLeaguish children -- but who discovered, in his mental and emotional disarray (it happens to many, for all kinds of reasons, but we Infidels lack the Infidel-blaming prism through which Muslims are taught to perceive the universe). That should be kept in mind.
No doubt those administering the oath of allegiance did not worry about, did not even consider, that perhaps no Muslim can, to the extent that he is a Believer, bear – though he may swear – allegiance to an Infidel nation-state, one whose central document, the Constitution, flatly contradicts the Shari’a in almost every respect. No doubt the high school classmates of this “Ali,” felt a frisson of self-congratulation when he was chosen to be valedictorian. Perhaps that sentiment will begin to die down, just a bit.
And who was the salutatorian?
Wow!!
I recognize this person from an Amnesty International action that is here:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/saudi_arabia/index.do
Here's what AI reported about his detention:
"Ahmed Abu 'Ali has been detained in Saudi Arabia since 11 June 2003 following his arrest in the city of Medina while taking an exam at al-Madina University. When initially arrested he was reportedly held in incommunicado detention for two months during which time he was allegedly tortured and ill-treated. Since then, he has called his family in the US every two weeks but they last heard from him on 20 November 2004. The family have contacted the State Department in the US and the US embassy in Riyadh, in order to determine Ahmed Abu Ali's fate. However, they have reportedly not received any assistance.
On 16 December 2004, a US District Court Judge, in a lawsuit brought by Ahmed Abu 'Ali's family, stated that there was "considerable evidence" that the US were complicit in his capture. In addition, the US consul in Saudi Arabia did not visit Ahmed Abu 'Ali for almost a month after his arrest. US federal agents were also allegedly involved in his interrogation and torture after his arrest. During an interrogation, Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) agents allegedly threatened him with either being declared an "enemy combatant" and sent to Guantanamo Bay, or a trial in Saudi Arabia where he would have no legal assistance, public hearing or appeal to a higher tribunal."
There's more at the link if you're interested.
Poor boy was tortured?
Like Hugh wrote, this floater was fully accepted into American society. The problem is, they don't want to be accepted into societies, they want to run them. And, the problem with all of that is, they don't have the intelligence, compassion, or vision to get out of theirown 7th century caveman philosophies.
Nick Berg was tortured, if this little shit took a few whips across his back, he'll survive, and no tears should be shed. He wasn't maimed, or disfigured, or beheaded. A little sting doesn't hurt anyone, it let's them know they're alive.
Islam is a religion of piece. Piece here, piece there, leg here, head there.
Very interesting point from HUGH.
we are incapable of accepting or revealing the motives of jihadists when they kill or attack westerners.
Instead in a classroom example of freudian displacement, we distort the slaughters through a standard list of MSM euphemisms.
Even In Beslan, surely the most heartwrenching of attrocities since it involved so many innocent schoolchildren, when all the attributes of extremist islam were there for all to see, where koranic texts were read out to the children as they awaited death- even in this extreme case the MSM were unable to call the outrage for what it was!
Is this ignorance? of course not! it is a deliberate attempt to sanitize Islam at all costs, even if it means sacrifising schoolchildren to the cause!
And for this many of us should hang their heads in shame!
The question is how much evidence the Feds have on him outside of any confessions that may have been acquired under duress.
OT, but: Democrat Rangel doesn't want it called 'islamic terror.' He made that statement today.
I suppose if they would stop quoting the Koran in favor of what they were doing, we could stop calling it that...
At one of the news sites about Abu Ali, it mentioned a connection to Falls Church, VA. Wasn't the mosque in that area one of the ones that the Institute for Religion and Democracy recently exposed as having hate literature on its shelves? I just saw one of Ali's supporters outside the Federal Courthouse being interviewed. He gave the press the standard, "He is being targeted because he is a Muslim. The US Attorney General's office has lost all credibility with our community." Who lost what credibility? Their "community" will become more isolated the more that it appears that they are grooming, hiding and defending people wanting to destroy our country.
I agree with Hugh.
Israel is only fooling itself, to think otherwise.
Kj
I don’t think any “bomber expressway” going thru or near Israel is a good idea.
The question is how much evidence the Feds have on him outside of any confessions that may have been acquired under duress.
Posted by: Mike [TypeKey Profile Page] at February 22, 2005 01:44 PM
Do you think that the US Federal Government just made up a 6 count indictment out of thin air?
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/AliIndictment.pdf
This little terrorist is going down.
(More than 100 supporters of Abu Ali crowded the courtroom and laughed when the charge was read aloud alleging that he conspired to assassinate Bush.Who are these 100 supporters.FBI and HOMELAND SECURITY should investigate every single one of them.This prove the falseness of Kiefir Sutherland Fox 24 PSA "it is important to recognize that the American Muslim community stands firmly beside their fellow Americans in denouncing and resisting all forms of terrorism."
Charles Johnson at LGF has this posted at his site, watch as thousands call for the death of America, and death to Israel.
http://memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=12#
This brother is only 'charged' and there is still no evidence for you to lynch him on the street so don't react so fast and childishly.
This is getting a trend nowadays: an innocent Muslim brother on court and anti-Islam propaganda all over the place to make him guilty but at the end of the day there is still no evidence to convict him.
So I ask you as always, stop your hatred against Holy Islam and learn to live in peace with the rest of the brothers and sisters.
Allahu Akbar
Mahmoud! Long time no see!
I did hear on CNN a short time, they have had this guy for two years. I doubt very much Nothing has been going on in the way of investigation, all that time! They have to be shipping at least a few facts and paper trails along with him... hardly a fast reaction.
And I need to get back to work! *poofs*
Please see my post ISA Valedictorian Charged in Plot to Assassinate Bush (http://northernvirginiastan.blogspot.com/2005/02/isa-valedictorian-charged-in-plot-to.html)
to uncover relationships between the Muslim American Society (which agitated on Abu Ali's behalf), the Muslim Brotherhood, and a Falls Church, VA mosque.
This brother is only 'charged' and there is still no evidence for you to lynch him on the street so don't react so fast and childishly.
This is getting a trend nowadays: an innocent Muslim brother on court and anti-Islam propaganda all over the place to make him guilty but at the end of the day there is still no evidence to convict him.
So I ask you as always, stop your hatred against Holy Islam and learn to live in peace with the rest of the brothers and sisters.
Allahu Akbar
Posted by: Mahmoud at February 22, 2005 02:44 PM
So I'll ask you as always, worm food, to come down off of the opium. Just cuz your fake prophet used it as he dreamed this cult up doesn't mean you have to. You know boy, your name sounds familiar.
Mahmoud-
If you're a do-it-yourselfer, perhaps you'd be interested in one of these:
http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/backhoe/backhoe.html
Keep on shoveling, brother!
He claimed that he was tortured while detained in Saudi Arabia since June of 2003 and offered through his lawyer to show the judge his scars.
Did they put him in a panty pyramid and make him recite the holy Qur’an?
Or did some American girl laugh at his little tally wacker?
He still received less torture than Mr Armstrong and company. How about the torture that 3,000 American received on 9/11, and the torture their families feel to this day.
Maybe he wants to be tortured Islamic style like these guys.
http://www.efsha.co.uk/english/beheadings.htm
OT:
Speaking of shoveling sh*t - look who we have here - our buddies at CAIR!
Islam and the New Iraqi Government
Source: CAIR ISLAM-OPED
http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=36139&theType=NB
"The Prophet Muhammad characterized believers as people who accept wisdom no matter what its source. This principle served Islam and humanity well in Spain where Muslim egalitarianism formed the basis of an impressive civilization based on knowledge, rational inquiry and tolerance, eventually becoming the precursor to Europe's Renaissance."
**HYSTERICAL LAUGHTER**
DO TELL, PARVEZ!!
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
Mahmoud -
Deportation works for me. We don't have to prove anything that way. You guys, sort of, volunteer.
Mahmoud -
Deportation works for me. We don't have to prove anything that way. You guys, sort of, volunteer.
Mahmoud,
Show me an innocent muslim, and I'll show you a flying pig!
Allahu Snackbar to you too.
OT:
Interesting article from Shia News:
"Horrors of Iraq's mass graves"
By Sayed Mahdi Almodarresi
Our greatest tragedy may be that we tend to forget our tragedies
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000374.php
"The western world has only recently discovered the terrifying face of Wahhabi terrorism at the hands of Al-Qaeda. We, however, have had to deal with their bitter hatred for many years in Afghanistan (under the Taliban), Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and elsewhere..."
Not being much the scholar but could someone here help me understand why this does not apply to islam.
Meaning of CONSPIRACY
Pronunciation: kun'spirusee
WordNet Dictionary
Definition: [n] a plot to carry out some harmful or illegal act (especially a political plot)
[n] a secret agreement between two or more people to perform an unlawful act
[n] a group of conspirators banded together to achieve some harmful or illegal purpose
george wrote:Is this ignorance? of course not! it is a deliberate attempt to sanitize Islam at all costs, even if it means sacrifising schoolchildren to the cause!
There are several reasons that MSM is hiding the truth
1. LLL and a committment to multi-culturalism
2. Prevention of a possible breakdown of the peace with vigilante justice meted out.
3. Realising that publication of the muslim abomination of murderous hatred and head-hacking of non-muslims, whose only was "crime" was being non-muslim, will eventually lead to a call for total war against this vile and satanic creed of islam.
Islam hates everything that is NOT muslim. It is as simple as that.
BTW, why did Abu whatits want to come back to the kaffir land of America?
I would have thought he would be delighted to stay on in Saudi Arabia, the land of his demented "prophet".
So, this particular press release would have you believe that Ahmed Omar Abu Ali was a typical high school "valedictorian" from the lovely state of Virginia.
Ahem . . .Very interesting little tidbit about this "valedictorian" mentioned on Fox this afternoon.
Seems he graduated from a wahabbi inspired muslim high school.
This certainly clarifies Ahmed's allegiance to Islam above all else. . .including his American citizenship and assimilation to American society - don't you think?
Except an old timer like Gary, everyone else reacted to my comments blindly and with hatred against Holy Islam instead of showing some proof about what this innocent brother actually did. He was under the torture of Saudi secrect police for more than 20 months and if he ever wanted to talk under torture, he would have talked to them any way. And as if all of that alone is not enough, he is now in court with no evidence what so ever, resulting only in richer lawyers and nothing more. It's better to leave this brother alone with all the misery he suffered under the torture of Saudi regime.
So why you hate Holy Islam so much and why you keep going on your ignorant way without opening your eyes? Please stop watching Fox news and learn Arabic language so you can learn Holy Islam better, away from this Anti-Islam nonsense propaganda.
May Almighty Allah (swt) help you live in peace and learn his rightous way.
Allahu Akbar
So why you hate Holy Islam so much and why you keep going on your ignorant way without opening your eyes? Please stop watching Fox news and learn Arabic language so you can learn Holy Islam better, away from this Anti-Islam nonsense propaganda.
May Almighty Allah (swt) help you live in peace and learn his rightous way.
Allahu Akbar
Posted by: Mahmoud at February 22, 2005 10:02 PM
We don't have to learn Arabic to read the Qur'an; it's vile doctrine translates nicely into English.
As for living in peace, you won't find any of us blowing up innocent people in the name of our God, or kidnapping and beheading them as your pious "brothers" do every day of the year.
I hate to tell you this but a muslim is the last person on earth who should be encouraging anyone to "live in peace." We would love to "live in peace" but as long as there are muslims, that will be impossible.
In conclusion, there is no "righteous way" through Allah, the god of hate, suffering, and death.
Mahmoud
I don't hate Islam. Why do you find it impossible to criticize the MANY bad acts by Muslims all over the world? You can pretend to play the nice guy all you want. However, I'll wager most people rub their necks every time a Muslim posts more propaganda.
Americans are very tolerant people, unlike the inbred lunatics who run the Apartheid Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Don't take our tolerance for stupidity. At some point, it might be sooner or later, Muslims like yourself who always defend other Muslims no matter the circumstances will be unable to fool anyone. The truth is escaping, despite your best efforts to put lipstick on the pig.
Mahmoud:
Why should we learn Arabic? After all, the majority of Muslims don't bother to, so why should the rest of?
So he was tortured, oh how my heart bleeds for the poor little animal. Where do they get off making these claims, it's just like the accusations that a childrens hospital seems to be hit, or civilians killed in every US air strike in Iraq .....now and again would be believable, but the thought that the best trained pilots in the world always hit the wrong targets in every single mission is too much to swallow.... this caged ape's accusations of torture are just the same, it's being stretched to snapping point.
Even so, I expect if one of our assassins were caught in Iran posing as a iranian citizen, was caught trying to assassinate the Grand Ayatollah, he'd be tortured to death before a trial ever took place, with the full blessing of the koran, of allah, and of every practising muslim.... and under the instructions of sharia law.
Not saying that the US should sink to the islamic level, but maybe a bit of a thrashing is what these bastards are short of.
The piece of scum wants to be thankful he's not locked away in a dark, windowless room and left for a horde of starving rats to feed on.
This brother is only 'charged' and there is still no evidence for you to lynch him on the street so don't react so fast and childishly.
This is getting a trend nowadays: an innocent Muslim brother on court and anti-Islam propaganda all over the place to make him guilty but at the end of the day there is still no evidence to convict him.
So I ask you as always, stop your hatred against Holy Islam and learn to live in peace with the rest of the brothers and sisters.
Allahu Akbar
Mahmoud,
There's no such thing as an "innocent muslim". Just being part of a death cult responsible for billions of deaths, the eradication of many a rich, ancient culture and their historic buildings, brain-washing over a sixth of man-kind into becoming mindless, hostile, intolerant, miserable, walking , talking corpses ; and the continuation of almost every current conflict ; makes them guilty by association.
I agree on one of your points though, it is getting a trendmuslims getting arrested, and bleeding hearts liberals whining about their human rights being infringed until they are released (whereupon, the "innocent" soul goes right back to blowing stuff up again).
So I ask you, if you're so fed up of our "hatred of holy islam (I guess thats where the phrase "holy shit" comes from)", then piss off out of our countries you unwanted leeches ; or stop giving us reasons to hate you and your death fetish club (like causing wars, death and exlosions, acts of cowardly slaughter, visions of world dominion...etc...etc).... then maybe we'll live in peace.
Yabba-dabba-akbar!!!
Nice, Rikki, real nice.
So all muslims are "unwanted leeches," worthy of hate as you say? A death fetish club? No such thing as an innocent mulsim??
If you happen to be a white American, then as a fellow white American, I am ashamed of you.
You even give Robert Spencer a bad name.
"Yabba-dabba-akbar"???
What are we all five years old now?
Pull yourself up.
P_H,
Mahmoud used to be a regular troll here so I'll say what I like to him.... which brings me to who the hell are you site moderator ot something???
No , let me guess, you're one of the muslim loving idiots who thinks islam is a religion of peace, despite daily doses of evidence to prove otherwise (for instance, wars on every continant bar america, caused by, or involving muslims/islam.... slaughters , genocide, civil wars fought so they can have their own islamic state... and thats just the modern state of islam, look through history and you really get to see the "religion of peace" at it's most peaceful).
For this reason, I have contempt for all muslims, for being part in such a blood-soaked , evil, cult (the "moderate" ones cheer on their extrem brothers and sisters, they cover for them, they support them, lie for them.... hence , in a way they're as bad).
Islam is the enemy of western civilization, a civilization I am part of.
BTW _ How do you know what colour my skin is, and what the hell has it got to do with this thread, my comment or any debate regarding islam.
Rikki, you say,
"I have contempt for all muslims"
I have no doubt, that out of 1 billion or so muslims, there is at least one who is more moral, decent, and benevolent than you and me put together.
Yet you have contempt even for him.
You should think about that.
Susanp writes,
"We would love to "live in peace" but as long as there are muslims, that will be impossible."
No, Susan. Even if only 0.001% of muslims are truly peaceful--a wildly low estimate, I'm sure--that would still mean there are about ten thousand muslims we could live alongside in peace.
Perhaps you meant something different.
Did anyone else notice that the indictment is signed by "Chief, Criminal Division", Robert Spencer? See page 16 of the indictment pdf.
Zionist conspiracy! LOL.
The charges he faces are very serious indeed.The first 3 are conspiracy charges which are often hard to prove and usually rely only on testimony rather than physical evidence.The last 3 charges relate directly to his association with the terrorists,this is easier to prove,especially if they can produce Al Qaeda videos or literature found in his possesion.
I'm sure Mahmoud wont believe this but Abu Ali has as good a chance in the American criminal justice system as any of us would.If the charges are false,they will have to get it past 12 people.So far,Abu Ali has been treated worse by his own Muslim brothers in Saudi Arabia than by the American government,if we can believe his claims.
JLP
PS:Are they sure they were laughing when the charges were read?Maybe they were making that turkey gobble sound,that means they are about to attack.
Mahmoud:
I genuinely believe that the koran is the word of Satan, if Satan exists, that is. Otherwise it is merely the ranting of a thieving brigand and pervert. No loving God would have said 'kill the Jews and Christians'. God loves all his children, his creation after all, regardless if they are Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists or even Atheists. This is so simple a truth, that it confounds me why the writer of the Koran did not understand such a simple truism. Unless of course the Koran is written as a manual for the subjugation and loot of other people. Then of course it makes perfect sense. The other reason can be that God is different from allah, and allah is none other then the fallen angel the Devil. Then again the words of allah make perfect sense.
Salman Rushdie wrote a novel and what he got was a death sentence. Van Gogh made a film and was murdered in his own country by a Moroccan muslim. Other writers critical of Islam have had to change their names and live under police protection. And this in the West. It is completely unacceptable that your brothers in faith are perceived as a murderous threat to writers. Our civilisation advances by critical thought and I detest and abhor the fact that you have made it difficult for writers to question Islam. This even in the West. If Muslims cannot abide by the rules and cultures of the West, then I would very much appreciate that Muslims leave for a Muslim country of their choice.
Think for yourself Mahmoud. Just consider what a disgusting religion you have given your pledge to, and then find your own salvation elsewhere before it is too late. Time is getting short, and we will not accept the curtailment of our freedoms for too long just because islam is in crisis.
Rikki, you say,
"I have contempt for all muslims"
I have no doubt, that out of 1 billion or so muslims, there is at least one who is more moral, decent, and benevolent than you and me put together.
Yet you have contempt even for him.
You should think about that.
Posted by: p_h at February 23, 2005 08:11 AM
For that one muslims I would say, "leave your religion".
That possible 00.1% of peaceful muslims has yet to show itself, so lets not get to insightful about them.A way they could reveal themselves is by starting calling for reform of islam (risk of death may be involved, but they want to die don't they???). However, as I've already said, even the most peaceful tolerant muslim sits by and lets the religion from hell continue (I'm sure their were nazis who did nothing wrong).