Final note on the New Jersey murders

We need to found out the truth about these
men. You can bet if they were converted to
islam in jail the media and the cops will
down play that fact. I for one say don't
give up the search. It's more than possible
there two could have been picked by your
butcher suspect but it could be covered up.
Don't forget its a war. Even if by some
slim chance your wrong. The fog of war will
cause many mistakes that does not change
the fact that it is a war for the soul of
mankind and the cult of death is at this
time winning and the the media seems to
stupid to see that fact.

You have outlined some excellent points throughout this case, Mr. Spencer. Thank you.

It's not likely your questions will be answered by DeFazio as he seems quite satisfied with the current arrests (as reported in Newsday).

Newsday's account of murder

Edward McDonald, 25, a convicted felon and the upstairs neighbor of the Armanious family, was charged Friday with four counts of felony murder in the Jan. 11 slayings. He and his alleged accomplice, Hamilton Sanchez, 30, who also was charged, planned to rob the family of an ATM card and other funds when the situation deteriorated, DeFazio said. McDonald and Sanchez went to the Armanious' apartment at 7:30 p.m. Jan. 11, and forced their way inside after the girl's mother, Amal Garas, 46, opened the door, officials said.
They bound and gagged the mother and her two daughters then waited two hours for Hossam Armanious to return from work, officials said.
When Armanious returned, he too was tied up, but Monica managed to get free and identify one of the masked men as McDonald, DeFazio said.
"That's when he grabbed her and stabbed her," DeFazio said.
Sanchez then allegedly killed Monica's older sister Sylvia, 15, and her parents in another room, he said.

Any answers received will likely come from some ambitious reporter who continues asking the same questions as Mr. Spencer.

For now, it seems that these two felons have some culpability for the murder of the Armanious family.

I, for one, am not convinced these two are alone in this crime.

You have no need to apologize, Mr. Spencer. You conducted yourself totally above board. I'm waiting for more information on these murders. I still think there is an Islamic jihad angle in there.

........ And there's nothing final about this for me. I want more information on the accused, more information in general. At the risk of being racist, I will admit that Hispanic criminals like to use knives a lot more than others. They like to get personal with their victim or adversary. And Sanchez is accused of butchering three of the victims.

I dont expect much from the DOJ after they have gone thru CAIR contioning I doubt they are taught about Kitman or that you have a name like Edward DeFazio
and still believe Mohammed was a Prophet of god.
Time will out the truth in this matter.

Looks like they lifted the script from the old book/movie; "In Cold Blood".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Cold_Blood

There is a reasonable explaination why they would seek to downplay/hide an islamic connection- mainly- terrorism thrives on publicity.

Surely you people realize that you, Robert Spencer, and Jihad Watch have now been completely discredited by your hateful and prejudiced actions. Will you not now at least do the decent thing, appologize to the Muslim ummah, and abandon your opposition to Islam?

I'm puzzled by the fact that robbers don't usually slit throats. It's quite uncommon.

As sad is it may sound, I truly hope that these murders can be tied to Islamic intolerance. Maybe it's because I hate what they stand for so much I have become closed minded and paranoiac in my distrust of them.

At least then the Armanious family would not have died for nothing.

What is clear is that on line blogs can have an enormous impact on the news and public opinion.

Keep us the good work Robert. People like you give me hope for my children.

In addition to Robert's comments, we need to also remember that the now defunct barsyomat.com contained pictures and information of outspoken critics of Islam that were reportedly targeted for killing.

There were also numerous posts on that website which celebrated the deaths of the Aramonious family, and one post from an alleged group that claimed credit for them!

The killings as reported had all the trademarks of a jihadi killing, up to and including slit throats and the cutting out of religious symbols from the flesh of one of the daughters. I highly doubt, and I reject the NJ Police's assertions that these precision killings, reported to look like islamic revenge killings, were performed during a botched home robbery.

I'm reminded of Ann Coulter's words in the wake of the 9-11 terrorist attacks in which she wrote:

"...One hundred percent of the successful terrorist attacks on commercial airlines for 20 years have been committed by Arabs. When there is a 100 percent chance of being hijacked by an Arab Muslim Extremist, it ceases to be a profile. It's called a 'description of the suspect...."

If it looks like a muslim revenge killing, the chances are overwhelmingly high that it is one. I still believe it is what it appeared to be at the very beginning: muslim revenge killing. No amount of bullshit cajoling by Norseman or his kneepad wearing islamic apologists is going to change that. You and your ilk may get away with this killing, but the rest of us are on to you.

While obviously more facts will come out at the trial on the motivations of the alleged perpetrators and they will, of course,have to be found guilty of the charges, I think we all have to admit that the New Jersey police and Hudson County Prosecutor have done a very good job of identifying and arresting the supects so quickly. The murder only took place on January 14. Their behavior over the course of the investigation also can be viewed as a model for police and prosecutors elsewhere in the country. Would that all crimes could be solved so effectively.

It is also good news that people in America like the Armanius family can still proselytize for Christianity in the Muslim community without being killed.

All that Mr. Spencer can do is take his lumps and move on. Remember all the criticism Steven Emerson received after the Oklahoma City bombing. It's inevitable that in the struggle against militant Islam there are going to be some false alarms, but there will also be plenty more real battles to fight in the future. And Mr. Spencer has a very important leadership role to play, which he has been doing admirably and for which we are all grateful.

All the evidence that has,and is still being gathered by detectives will still not necessarily rule out the possibility of a religious component. The evidence gathered will remain under raps as it should so as not to prejudice the case, or the potential jury pool. County prosecutor

Edward Defazio's reasons for deflecting the strong possibilty that the murders have a religious component are well founded in trying to protect the case from being tainted by that one direction only. Speculation,assumptions,hearsay do not make a case for the prosecution, though all leads are potentialy important in attaining hard and irrefutable evidence.
Mr Spencer could even possibly end up being subpoenad as witness in the case down the road still.

Robert:

You need to be commended for your efforts in keeping the Armanious murders on the front burner as best you could, no matter what direction the case ends up going .

Sincerely ---Mackie

I totally disagree with you Patrick. Robert Spencer does not have to "take his lumps and move on." I don't know what kind of background you and Mackie have, but the truth is that there are a lot of unanswered questions in this case. I also can't believe you think the prosecutor handled this really well, considering the fact that it took almost two months to get the bank records, something that could have easily been obtained through an emergeny supeona, because of the extenuating circumstances. These kinds of things happen all the time.

And why are so many thinking that our Justice system is so pure, honorable and sound? Do you know how many innocent people are imprisoned each year? How many times does the wrong person get arrested? Our prisons have a considerable number of innocent people.

Why are so many following the mainstream press so seriously. A press which is so cautious and usually waits for blogs like Spencer's to break the news first? And if it is true, as one poster wrote, that the AP writer on this story consistently writes in favor of Muslims, then that bias needs to be considered as well.

***I suggest you look up the long and strong history of corruption that is inherent in the state of NJ. How and why people get their positions in gov't etc., etc... I suggest you then check out the long and sordid history of corruption inherent in Jersey City. We are not in Marx's utopia here, and everyone does not do the right thing and tell the truth.***

It is not good to be so enamoured by authority, without asking the logical critical questions. The truth about this case may not come out for 10 or 20 years. But somehow the truth has a way of surfacing. What we do know is that we have problems with radical Islam in this country, and that Muslim converts are on the rise in the prison system. And if the report from NE Intelligence is accurate, McDonald would have no trouble lying to the kafir about his faith or affiliations. And from the comments made by the prosecutor, it does not look like he would even pursue that line of questioning.

Mary Rose had some interesting queeries on the other thread. I think these are important points worth considering and repeating here:

Like one of the previous comments, I read the CAIR press release. That organization, who has never acknowledged a guilty Muslim, even after a conviction,is proclaiming the guilty have been arrested, case closed. After reading one of the local news reports, I still have many questions, mainly about the police. Supposedly, the two men picked up had long rap sheets. The man that lived upstairs from the Armonious family was seen in the yard by one of the Armonious relatives the day of the murder. According to the story, McDonald continued to live above the murder scene until the police told him that he had to move, and then he moved just several blocks away. With the brutality of the murders, didn't he leave evidence all over the house,upstairs and downstairs, DNA and physical evidence, and why wasn't he the number one suspect from the start by the police, given his long crime history? And, given the DA's working theory that the motive was greed and not religion. I hope that the family of the victims can finally find some peace.

What utter silliness, Mr. Spencer. But, hey, it's your credibility. Spend it as you will.

(For an alternate approach to the latest development in the story, consider the reaction of our own Charles Bird: http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2005/03/crow_on_the_men.html).

OT news from the new head Dhimmicrat

Where is the country that Bill Clinton, a former president of the United States, feels ideologically most at home? Believe it or not, the country Bill Clinton so admires is the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Here is what Clinton said at a meeting on the margins of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, just a few weeks ago: "Iran today is, in a sense, the only country where progressive ideas enjoy a vast constituency. It is there that the ideas that I subscribe to are defended by a majority."

"Iran is the only country in the world that has now had six elections since the first election of President Khatami (in 1997). (It is) the only one with elections, including the United States, including Israel, including you name it, where the liberals, or the progressives, have won two-thirds to 70 percent of the vote in six elections: Two for president; two for the Parliament, the Majlis; two for the mayoralties. In every single election, the guys I identify with got two-thirds to 70 percent of the vote. There is no other country in the world I can say that about, certainly not my own."

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=59952&d=5&m=3&y=2005

"...resisting efforts by hate-mongers from outside our state to use the tragedy as a way to damage interfaith relations."

A hateful accusational labeling statement made by a hateful islamist.

Gee, all the islamist has to do is get someone to steal a few bucks, and wha-la, it's a robbery.

Surely you islamists realize that you, "Norseman" and your friends have now been completely discredited by your hateful agreement with the violent actions of Islam worldwide. Will you now at least do the decent thing and apologize to the non-islamic world and abandon your brainwashed following of Islam?

All of Islam plays the propaganda game.

All of Islam plays the distortion game.

All of Islam is deception period.

All of Islam plays the us-against-them game.

Islam does not correct itself.

There is no honor in Islam, only arrogance.

"There is no honor in Islam, only arrogance"

Well stated!! Islam has to be the most arrogant, most over the top, most in your face, "faith" on the planet

I also noticed on another news report that the police are continuing to collect and remove evidence from McDonald's apt. that he lived in after moving from the Armonious home. Presumably, he moved some of the evidence of the murders (perhaps family possessions that he had stolen?)with him to his new digs. I still have to wonder, given his criminal history, that he wasn't taken in to custody within 24 hours of the murders. Another strange detail can be questioned, if I remember correctly. Several days went by between the murders and the findings of the bodies. And so McDonald, who knew there were four dead bodies in the apt. below him that he was responsible for, continued to live upstairs? I know that there are many stupid criminals, but this man must have been not only incredibly stupid but possessed nerves of steel. I don't know about crime statistics, but surely 98% of murderers get as far away from their victims as possible. I hope that the press has many more questions for the DA and the police department.

Norseman, assuming that wasn't sarcasm (in which case I apologize), and even assuming that these murders weren't religiously motivated (which at this stage is far from likely), why would being wrong about a single, isolated case be reason enough to 'abandon opposition to Islam'?

Given the horrors of islam in the past and present, and those conceived for the future, given the oppression and hatred generated in other cultures through immumerable interpretations of islam, given the ongoing (and foreseeably infinite, or at least until it is no more) misogyny of the islamic scripture, will you, Norseman, not at the very least do the honourable thing and apologize to non-muslims and women everywhere for oppression by your religion? Please, Norseman, do the right thing. Apologize and admit that other religions have as much right to exist as your own.

Do the right thing, Norseman - apologize. I know you are brave and intelligent enough to do so.

Geoff

Murder-for-hire.

It's common among thieves to sell or trade stolen credit cards just like kids trading or selling baseball cards; "Hey bro, want to buy a Providian Visa?"

This is all speculation but they could have been conveniently inserted into this situation by cunning individuals simply because they were stupid, willing as*holes. If this is the case they will not keep their mouths shut for long.

And the extreme level of violence is not explained by the arrest of these two ignoramuses who went from ATM to ATM using this stolen credit card. Ordinary robbers/thieves do no inflict this type of horrific injury. This is not the typical force or fear that defines a robbery. This is personal.

I am absolutely sure that Mr Armonious would have given up the pin to the credit card rather that allow his little girl be tortured.

Did they really murder this entire family for a credit card?

Somebody mentioned "silliness" and "credibility".

HAhahahahah!!!!
I mention gullibility, naivety, and conformity.

We ARE living in a virtual-reality world created by the media and important cultural institutions. THEY are the MAIN PROPAGATORS of the "religion of peace" mantra. Is Mr. Bush an ignorant fool concerning this? Possibly, but even if he was not, the cultural/political climate maintained by the virtual-reality makers renders it impossible to openly contradict their version of reality.

To do so is to invite being labeled racist, hateful,paranoid, dangerous, or stupid.

I don't think the media/institutions are controlled by the government, I think it is the other way around.

I wanted to add one more thought. I truly believe that if it had been a Muslim family murdered, with all of the same details, including death threats on an Internet site, the DA and the police would have gone into automatic mode of politically correct and declared that they were searching for person or persons who had committed a hate crime against the Muslim family. Little or no mention of other motives would have been considered or discussed. Headlines across the country would have been larger and the coverage would have been more extensive. CAIR and Company would have kept the murders in the news much longer than the coverage given to the Copt family. The press would have had long articles, with plenty of CAIR quotes, about the hatred encouraged against Muslims since 9/11. In New Jersey, in the last year or two, a Muslim man murdered his pregnant non-Muslim wife and mother-in-law for not converting to Islam. Those Islamic (religiously)motivated murders were never mentioned as background information by reporters in doing the Armonious story. (Could religious extemism once more be the motive for brutal New Jersey murders?) I suppose that we will all have to live with a double standard by law enforcement and the mainstream media for a long time. It is a very discouraging reality to face.

I am disgusted the more I read about this murder and the arrest of these ... I can't say it out loud.

They waited for "hours" for Mr Armanious to come home? This doesn't make sense to me. If this was a theft just for the sake of theft, why didn't they take the ring off Mrs Armonious' hand? What about the rest of the jewlery. Were they too stupid to search the bedroom after the famiy was bound? Did they feel that much comfort in the home of their victims to spend hours there?

PS

I remember Norseman from AOL's MidEast forum. He's pro IslamofFacist and a rabid Jew hater.
Yippee ...

I think this crime is about drug deal went bad remember the father of the family was out of job for the last six mounths before the killing , how can he support a family of 4 without a job and still have thousands of $$ at the bank ..?

We will see at the trial what kind of case the police and Mr.De Fazio have. The fact is that petty criminals are and have always been the police's favourite candidates for clearing up mysterious or inconvenient crimes (or for obtaining "evidence" against third parties). If the prosecution relies only on a confession - if there is no cast-iron circumstantial and other evidence - then I for once will not be convinced. Listen to Bob Dylan's "Hurricane" - that was the Patterson, New Jersey police too.

One lesson - never surrender. No matter how much pain they cause you, they will cause you more hurt as soon as you give them unopposed control. Die fighting, fight dieing.

The context and the evidence: the Beltway sniper, honor killings in Europe, assassinations and threatened assassinations in Europe, brutal treatment of Copts in Egypt, death threats against the family for proselytizing among Muslims, and the certainty that such behavior in Egypt, or in any other country that has a Muslims majority, would be dealt with forcefully and violently if necessary, the suspicious, consistent slitting of the throats, and other evidence of brutality that would seem to indicate a hate crime, or a ritualistic killing, including the desecration of religious symbols, and, of course, support for ritualistic murder of these proselytizing Infidels in Islamic scripture and traditions: there is plenty of evidence to warrant suspicion of an Islamic hate crime; in fact the evidence was and remains so suggestive, Muslims themselves, if they mean what they say about 'peace and tolerance', should be among the first to take the possibility of a hate crime originating in their community seriously and investigate. I have no doubt that if there were such prima facie evidence of a hate crime in, say, the Catholic community, priests, laity, church communities would own the evidence and start an inquiry of their own. But, what happens in the Islamic community? Blanket denials. Accusations of 'hate-mongering and 'Islamophobia'. Proclamations and comments that consider the case closed before a trail and the treatment of many important questions by the prosecution.

Spencer has consistently shown rational due diligence in presenting the evidence of this case and has nothing to apologize for. CAIR and others in the Islamic community, on the other hand, should apologize to all of us for their lack of concern and diligence regarding the real potential for explosive violence from Muslims in the United States; in this particular case, the behavior of the Muslim community merely reinforces the perception that they care more about the expansion of the ummah and the protection of Muslims, no matter who they are, than the security of the United States and its citizens. There is absolutely nothing in their behavior that indicates otherwise.

The proposed details of this crime are fantastic, and should leave any rational person with more questions. Spencer posts the comments above as a 'final note', but until these questions find some answers, for instance, why these alleged, incidental murderers brutalized and killed their victims in ways that suggest ritual and hate, the final note should not sound for a rational mind.

SO:
The 'thieves' that invaded the Armanious residence just 'happened' to behead this hapless family and had no connection to Islam whatever.

Right. And the dish ran away with the spoon....

And if you STILL believe any of this, I've got a property including a lava flow (of natural origin on the site, no less) in Louisiana to sell you encase you're interested.

There may well be at least one beneficial result of this horrible tragedy: Islamophobic hate sites like Jihad Watch have been exposed for what they really are. I hope that respectable civil rights organizations like the ACLU and CAIR file legal actions against Jihad Watch, Little Green Fascists, and similar hate sites.

This episode will also no doubt hasten the oversight of the internet by the United Nations and by the US government.

It is time for you slimy hate mongers to slither back under the rocks from which you came.

Umm. Paolo...

"The Top 10 Myths about Hurricane Carter"
http://members.shaw.ca/cartermyths/
"The Movie isn't the true story. The Song isn't the true story.
"Hurricane" Carter hasn't told you the truth.
Think you know all about Rubin "Hurricane" Carter and the Lafayette Grill murders? Think again. Most of what you've been told, is false."
---

Or how bout this little gem...

"Guidelines for Countering Racial, Ethnic and Religious Profiling"
http://www.spj.org/diversity_profiling.asp

---------------

Or "MUMIYA JAMAL"(lying cop-killing scum)

http://www.danielfaulkner.com/
On July 3, 1982, having heard weeks of testimony, a jury of 12 citizens sentenced Mumia Abu-Jamal to death for the premeditated murder of Philadelphia Police Officer Daniel Faulkner. Over the next 19 years, Jamal's case has become one of the most publicized Death Penalty cases in the world. It has also become the most misunderstood. The twisted tales about this case are many. They have been told and retold by countless individuals who know little or nothing of the actual facts of the case.

Norseman, if you are going to scream in the mirror, at least stop the spittle from flying.

Sorry guy, best I can do after this past week...

Attention 'Norseman':

Islam has murdered at least 500 million human beings over the past 13 centuries (Yes, murdered). Islam, during its various conquests across the globe, has also brutally obliterated numerous cilivizations over the centuries: the Egyptian, the Syrian, the Byzantine, the Persian, the central Asian Buddhist civilization, Hindustan to name but a few. Millions of Greeks and other Balkan peoples were massacred by invading Muslims during the past five centuries or so (just ask THEM about Islam). Nothing will 'discredit' this harsh reality and certainly Robert Spencer is doing nothing wrong by alerting the world to this. In fact, I am grateful for persons like Mr. Spencer.

Oh, you don't believe ME? Then believe the Qur'an:

"And when the sacred months have passed, slay the infidels everywhere; beisege them, capture them set every ambush for them."

THAT Qur'anic passage is hard proof that Islam is conspiracy to commit murder and conspiracy to commit genocide--and incidentally, 'Norseman,' by taking Islam's side in this matter, you are making yourself an accomplice to these crimes which Islam is set up and DESIGNED to commit. If that doesn't bother you, then YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.

None of us believes that you are a 'norseman' anyway.

And the official explaination for the Beltway sniper was greed/money too.
His car had New Jersey plates. Also he was a homeless man getting calls from travel agents at the homeless shelter shortly after 9-11.

And what about the"John Doe" that had Arab appearance in the OKC case-- and the credible evidence uncovered by Jayna Davis?? Ignored, discounted.

This case is not concluded.
CAIR has already payed PR Newewire for a press release stating their jubilation that muslims weren't involved. But this case has only begun, not finished.

Everyone in the mass media is taking the scenario envisioned by the Hudson Cty Prosecutor's office AS THE GOSPEL.

But it's not the gospel truth and the alledged killers who were arrested have plead not guilty.

It seems odd that Mcdonald is such a cool calm collected killer.
So we're to believe that McDonald had the where withall to connoct a scheme to break ambush his downstairs landlord's apt and make off with the man's atm card and pin ?

I'm supposed to accept the scenario that McDonald and his buddy Snachez decided to don ski masks, arm themselves with a semi automatic weapon and then knock on Mrs Armanious' front door and be let in ?

I live near the Armanious' town and there is no way that any woman in her right mind goes to the front door and opens it to anyone. Particularly with ones children at home alone. And especially in Jersey City Heights.
The Armanious has suffered a minor break in several months before their murders and had a beefed up security system and were wary of strangers.

And then we're being told that after killing his landlord and his family in cold blood that McDonald continued to casually live upstairs with his two little kids and girlfriend and he laconically withdrew money from Mr Armanious' ATM card over the period of a week ?

Sorry but this case doesnt add up yet.

I will always believe that Muslims did this, no matter how much the media and the police attempt to put a towel over this pile of dump.

How many robbers take the time to stab a tattoo of a cross? They're covering this up so Muslims aren't eliminated from the U.S.

The gutless mainstream media has done a hell of a job keeping this quiet as well. Most people I've talked to haven't even heard that this family was killed.

And what about the one scum bag that was talking to Muslims in jail? Does that have nothing to do with it either? Ask the Copts who did this, and I bet you'll get a different answer than the one the cops delivered.

Whatever has to happen, they cannot be permitted to get by with this. Eye/Eye

Jeff Barron,

I am not sure how Mr. Spencer's credibility has been damaged. Would you please elaborate?

Pythagoras,

Norseman doesn't care how many people have been murdered or will be murdered during the Islamic expansion. It is all part of Allah's will that the unbelievers be swept aside. It is but a pittance.

Norseman,

The title of your handle insults my Nordic heritage. No self respecting indigenous Scandanavian would prop up Muhammand and worship a god like Allah.

Theirs should be the hope of dying, with sword in my hand, after lopping off the head of a fanatical Muslim. Then a place will be guaranteed for them with Odin in the Halls of Valhalla.

The game can work both ways...

Jeff Barron,

I am not sure how Mr. Spencer's credibility has been damaged. Would you please elaborate?

Pythagoras,

Norseman doesn't care how many people have been murdered or will be murdered during the Islamic expansion. It is all part of Allah's will that the unbelievers be swept aside. It is but a pittance.

Norseman,

The title of your handle insults my Nordic heritage. No self respecting indigenous Scandanavian would prop up Muhammand and worship a god like Allah.

Theirs should be the hope of dying, with sword in my hand, after lopping off the head of a fanatical Muslim. Then a place will be guaranteed for them with Odin in the Halls of Valhalla.

The game can work both ways...

No, none of the details add up. There are too many unanswered questions. Why would McDonald bring a semi-automatic handgun and then search for a kitchen knife . . .ONE (?) knife used by both felons to murder this family. Reading the story below, it indicates that while Monica managed to get loose McDonald had enough time to fetch the kitchen knife, catch her and 'take' her to the bathroom.

Uh huh.

Here is part of that article:

Robbery Cited As Motive In Family Slaying
According to De Fazio, McDonald and Sanchez had met by prearrangement in the vestibule of the family's home at 7:30 p.m. on Jan. 11. Wearing a ski mask and armed with a semi-automatic handgun McDonald burst in through the Armanious family's first-floor door along with Sanchez, who wore no mask. Amal Garas and her daughters—who were alone in the house—were then bound with rope, gagged and placed in separate rooms, the prosecutor said.

The assailants then ransacked the house for money and waited two hours for Armanious, the father, to come home. De Fazio said upon his return, Armanious was then bound and gagged at gunpoint also.

The men took money and an A.T.M. card from Armanious's wallet and were searching for more cash when Monica, who had slipped her ropes and was trying to sneak out, recognized McDonald as the tenant upstairs.

McDonald then proceeded to take her into a bathroom and, with a knife from the kitchen, cut her throat, De Fazio said. To eliminate all the witnesses, Sanchez then cut the throats of Armanious in a bedroom, Garas in an adjoining room and Sylvia in the children's bedroom, the prosecutor added.

After the victims were missed at their jobs and schools over the following two days and failed attempts to contact the family, Garas's brother, Ayman Garas, called the Jersey City police on Jan. 14. The police then broke into the house at around 4 a.m. and found the bodies.

In the meantime, the robbers had used Armanious's A.T.M. card five or six times to withdraw a total of about $3,000 at cash outlets in Jersey City and Manhattan, said De Fazio. Investigators said surveillance cameras caught one or both suspects.

then read:
Robbery Cited As Motive in Family Slaying
Authorities said Hossam Armanious, 47, his wife, Amal Garas, 37, and their children, Sylvia, 15, and Monica, 8, were slain three days before their bodies were found Jan. 14, bound and gagged with puncture wounds to their heads and necks.

Why all the puncture wounds to the head? If you ask me, the details coming forth about the extent of the injuries indicate that this crime was personal.

Robbery - feh!

Can anyone say red herring? Obviously they are very anxious to clear the case and are relieved to have a convenient suspect that does not fit within the profile of "religious hatred."

Still a very dangerous situation. Certainly an ambitious reporter should continue to investigate, but that person should also take great care not to end up as did the Armanious family or Danny Perle!

Americans will now have to live with fear of beheadings. Recently an elderly Muslim man was questioned about Islam and the Prophet. Indignantly he replied to the questioner to leave off asking such things or else "he would have to kill him"! So much for the religion of peace.

I don't usually swear (a lot) but in this case I make an exception. Up yours, Norseman... I hope one of your Muslim mates will give you the infidel treatment soon and do what they did to this poor family.

Norseman:

Everyone, including the "bigots" at Jihadwatch knows there is a "tiny minority of moderates" amongst Muslims. However, the actions of "good" Muslims are everywhere apparent:

"[Theo van Gogh and] Education by Murder" in Holland

http://www.danielpip...

Excerpt:

In the course of being shot repeatedly, Van Gogh beseeched his killer, "Don't do it. Don't do it. Have mercy. Have mercy!" Then the killer stabbed his chest with one knife and slit his throat with another, nearly decapitating van Gogh.

The presumed murderer, Mohammed Bouyeri, 26, a Dutch-born dual Moroccan-Dutch citizen, left a five-page note in both Arabic and Dutch attached to Van Gogh's body with a knife. In it he threatened jihad against the West in general, ("I surely know that you, Oh Europe, will be destroyed"), and specifically against five prominent Dutch political figures.

Norseman:

Theo van Gogh, the children of Beslan, the 3000 dead on 9/11, the 200 dead on 3/11, etc. will all be there to greet you in hell. You will burn with a fire unabated; the skin will be seared from your body; you will scream with agony for eternity. And that's just for starters!

There would be a lot less reason to suspect hate crimes as the motive if members of a religion that shall go unnamed would not go around posting death threats on bulletin boards.

I am still a little suspicious, on the whole I would be delighted to learn that it really was just a coincidence.

These murders were really quite politically inconevenient to the Establishment. So the police have blamed a couple of lowlife and hope the charges stick. If some do - case closed. If not, the trail would have gone cold by then. Win - win.

"2. If the motive was robbery, why was the family killed?"

What are you, an idiot? How many people die each year in robberies and robbery attempts?

That's like asking "If the motive was murder, why was the victim raped?"

It's called "CRIME", it's not called "REASON".

Oh, and don't worry, I'm sure all your points will be addressed by the defense attorneys during the trial.

More to the point: I think Jihadwatch needs to be commended for defending the rights of Copts to bring up the relgious motive. The Copts would have been much less angry if the prosecutor had been a less scared of offending the Muslims. The prosecutors dismissal of the Copts concerns ensured that the Copts who have many times been targets of Muslim violence in Egypt would think that they could never get a fair shake.
A far more reasonable response would have been "we are exploring every motive including the religious one."
Do you have ANY doubt that if a Muslim family had been found killed that the prosecutor would have said that? Or perhaps a gay couple and their children?
This is just a further example of the new law enforcement dictum: There are no hate crimes possible against Christians.

Mr. Islamofascist horseman,

NO, JIHAD WATCH IS NOT A HATE SITE, BUT I KNOW OF A RELIGION THAT IS VERY HATEFUL. WE DON'T HATE MUSLIM'S, WE ARE TRYING TO BRING THEM BACK INTO THE FOLD OF HUMANITY.

NO, WE WILL NEVER APOLOGISE TO YOUR RELIGION. WE WILL CONTIUE TO EXPOSE THE DAILY ATROCITIES COMMITED IN YOUR RELIGION'S NAME.

NO, WE WILL NEVER ALLOW THE U.N. TO CONTROL OUR RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH. IT SIMPLY WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

"2. If the motive was robbery, why was the family killed?"

What are you, an idiot? How many people die each year in robberies and robbery attempts? ~ the klute

Klute~ is that as far as your tiny mind could read? He answers the question. But there is more to both the question and the answer than your tiny mind can comprehend, apparently.

Mr. Spencer:

Please tell us, are you proud of what you have created here? Have you read the hate-filled ravings of your followers? Do you believe that you bear no responsibility for encouraging what has demonstrably become a vile cult of hatred for Moslems?

As I mentioned above, I hope that the ACLU, CAIR, or other protectors of the civil rights of your victims persue legal action against you and your "Jihad Watch" hate site. You hipocritically prate endlessly about Islamic websites, accusing them of advocating religious strife, and then carry on a campaign to inflame hatred of innocent people because of an admitedly horrendous crime. It is indeed fortunate that cooler heads prevailed and the real criminals were brought to justice before you could bring your lynch mob into the streets.

You are a hate monger and should be exposed, along with your ignorant, demented followers.

P.S. For the record, I am not a Muslim, nor do I support violence commited by Muslims other than in self-defense.

Call me stupid .. But if they both Plead "Not Guilty" How in the world do they have minute by minute details of the murders ?...

Also i read several accounts last night that said They were brandishing a gun... They had a gun and didnt use it ? But slit their throats ?

You know Norseman,Ihavebeen trying to figure out which side you come down on for a long time, It is like you are two people. I haven't stated my opinion yet about these developments, and I am listening and watching, but Robert Spencer has nothing to apologize for.

Why murder someone using Islamic methods then go for the robbery motive? Why kill someone as a warning to others then renege by twisting and turning?

If they did murder the family because of what the father said then why is it not boasted about, otherwise it's a wasted effort for the culprits.

Like a previous corespondent posted, how many robbers murder their victims halal style?

I would like to add, how many people who act as a nemesis to Islam just happen to be murdered by throat stabbing burglars who act as a group?

The thing is, I am cooking dinner, and every time I think of a new point, well, I come in to the computer.
So, sorry if I am more soapboxing than discussing, but here is another point:

If the story Maria Sliwa was persuing didn't check out, isn't it better for the prosecutor to say that the story didn't check out than to say "our office has not received any names." What is someone who knows that they have received names supposed to think? No wonder the community was suspicious.

Still, I guess it is a man bites dog story when the killers aren't Muslim. (Or are they? Northeast Intelligence Network, "the world's most alarmist website," suggested a connection).

Something else, Norseman, It's funny how Jihadwatch is a hatesite now, you've been posting here for a while, when did it change for you?

I'm literally crying here from laughing so hard after reading all the comments from the delusional folks who are obsessed with Islam to the point where they canot digest any factual information without imploding. Hey guys, did you know that Islam killed 6985 gazillion people last week alone?

Everyone here is so caught up with the blame game and hate Islam agenda that have forgotten the victims in this case. Sad.

RIP the Armanious family.

Norseman:

The only vile cult that is around that actually murders humans by slitting their throats and slowly letting them bleed to death, is islam. The muslim cult murderers also shout praise to their cult god while slowely hacking at the neck of their victim.

The only vile book is the koran, from which these buthers of humans get their inspiration. Mein Kampf comes a very poor second in vileness stakes.

IceDragon,

"Why murder someone using Islamic methods then go for the robbery motive?"

You've seen the crime scene then? You have a degree in criminology with a minor in Islamic studies? You have any idea, other than a dislike of Islam to make this statement?

"Why kill someone as a warning to others then renege by twisting and turning?"

Know what this is all reminiscent of? That guy in SLC who made all those fake Mormon documents and started killing people to cover his tracks. Everyone thought that those killings were done by Mormon leaders to cover up heresy too. And we all know how right they were.

"If they did murder the family because of what the father said then why is it not boasted about, otherwise it's a wasted effort for the culprits."

Yes, because every murderer obviously boasts of their kills. And that's why we catch each and every murderer here in the US.

"how many robbers murder their victims halal style?"

Again... Proof?

"I would like to add, how many people who act as a nemesis to Islam just happen to be murdered by throat stabbing burglars who act as a group?"

I don't know. How many? Got a number? Got a clue?

Norseman, you are as dishonest as you are obvious. "I do not support violence by Muslims except in self-defence"; yes, we are all familiar with Muslim notions of self-defence - where suicide bombers killing bunches of kids going to a night-club have been acting in self-defence. We know that there hasn't been a single murder committed by Muslims in 1400 years that has not been committed according to their notion of self-defence. Since they are at war with all the world, all violence is self-defence. So please don't come to us with those oily formulae - they do not work with us. And personally, I think I would like you rather more if you WERE a Muslim; as it is, you are worse even than a fellow-traveler. You are a man who carries his hatreds so dearly, who has so many resentments against the world he lives in, that he comes to support its enemies, merely because they are its enemies. There have been people like you before: the people who hated "demo-plutocracy" so much that they would have welcomed Communism, not because they had a Communist bone in their body, but for the pleasures of hate and revenge. And you have the cheek to preach at others about their supposed hate, you twisted, deranged mountain of loathing! The trouble is that you will never let yourself see in the black depths of your corrupt soul; but believe me, they are evident enough to others.

"A jihadist by any other name........"

So now the story changes since they found two patsy's to take the fall,just a few oddities
here in the new theory.
First,why would a Ex-Neighbour have to force themselves in when they could just claim to be visiting to get some information.
Second,the girl was said to have been found dead in her bed so I guess the corpse got up and walked upstairs to her room and rested while bleeding to death.
Three,the jewelery wasn't taken and the ATM card
appears to be a ruse to have them get caught and take the fall.

This case stinks and watch how fast CAIR back-peddles when the connection to Islam rears its ugly head.

Here's a link to a slaughter of 14 female students by a Muslim that changed his name to blend in at school,note how the media pounced on all males and made this a "Violence against women" issue.
Gamil Gharbi had a Algerian Muslim father and learned his hate from "Daddy Dearest" that use Shariah Law to bet his wife into submission.
After completing his mission he turned the weapon on himself and became a martyr for Allah cause to wipe out the sin in the Western world of wealth
freedom.

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-70-398/disasters_tragedies/montreal_massacre/

I have some more questions that I can’t get any answers for:
1. Why didn’t the thieves take any of the jewelry from the house, which are easy to dismantle and sell with no trace to any pawnshop or elsewhere?
2. If they are so smart and thought that they may be tracked down by jewelry’s serial numbers or laser imprinted diamonds; why did they, so stupidly, use (an easy to track) ATM card at a bank with camera’s eye wide open!
3. When Monica recognized one the robbers and they killed her, why they waited for the father?
4. If the killings were to eliminate any eyewitnesses and because the robbery gone badly, why were they very precise?

Answers any one.

“Coptic by birth, American by the grace of God.”

"Clutching at straws..."

Keep it up guys, you're all good for a laugh. :-)

Robert, I have been following this heinous crime since DAY 1. I reference your blog in mine, and rebut some of your points. I certainly hope and pray that the police are not doing a cover-up job, as suggested by some of the other posters. There was a case in the Alps a few years back where millionaire businessman Xavier Flactif vanished along with his wife and three children. Eventually police agreed it WAS murder, but it wasn't until they found the killer that they found the burned bodies and closed out the case. What is so very troubling is that a single individual could overpower Mr. Flactif (fit like Vin Diesel at the time) and his wife and the kids and kill them all.
The police may be right in the Armanious case. If you carefully scrutinize the NY city newspaper reports in the early days of the investigation, the police were curious about a "neighbor" but played their cards close to the vest, and it's good they did. Ultimately, time will tell. Robert, thank-you for bringing your points of view to the table.
Dave

"Swiss Seize Five Suspected Extremists" (the AP story below) features a photo of the beheaded Paul Johnson, by the way. You know, the guy who liked Islam a lot, and enjoyed his expat life in Saudi Arabia until it was suddenly cut short.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050304/481/ny19103042017

Somehow, a picture like that makes me a lot more (ahem) sanguine about having raised the possibility that there was a religious motivation in the Jersey killings.

If the police are right, and this is a big IF, as the pressure to get the "right" result would have been enormous, then it calls into question the slaughter of Daniel Pearl and Van Gogh. Maybe they were not slaughtered at all but in fact were victims of a robbery gone wrong. Maybe Daniel and Van Gogh refused to hand over the PIN numbers of their credit cards. But if so, why all those allah akhbars while slowly hacking the neck of Daniel Pearl?

Ok, Mr Lucas at least came here with an intelligent piece. These other guys must be Democratic Underground rejects. With all the losses their leadership is suffering in congress and around the world... not to mention all the judges soon to be appointed by President Bush... it must be tough finding something to perk themselves up.

At least until drugs are legalized...

Off for the night!

To Klute. It's looking like a duck and it's walking like a duck, of course it will be dismissed as a bizarre and complicated conspiracy, it's not. Muslims or Christian/atheist apostates murdered (allegedly) a Christian family end of story. It's in New Jersey, it's going to be all over the country unless you do something about it.

Ex Christian apostates.

We know very little as yet.

It would not surprise me at all if it was murder by proxy. These 2 alleged killers, are they not Muslim converts? Sure? We can only hope that the truth does come out, and if it does THAT will most likely be the truth!

For 3 grand and a ring, do you murder a whole family? If they had a gun, wouldn't it be easier to just take the next bank or the next liquor store?

Mr. Spencer, I want to commend you on your fantastic job with this case. Thank you!

patrick, don't be so sure steven emerson was wrong (never mind Mr. Spencer!) about the Oklahoma City bombing. Read Jayna Davis's (hi kentim) book, "The Third Terrorist," and then you can decide who was wrong.

Norseman seems more like a name that would be chosen by a White Supremacist. They like evoking Nordic things.

I've got a bridge to sell Defazio.

Norseman you are not. If you want hate, extremism, murder instructions including who and how, i can suggest several islamic web sites for you, newspapers, magazines and religous literature.

islam is a sad sad business; hundreds of millions have already fallen, with i suspect, many more to come, before we see the end of it.

This murder case, from its initial reporting to the present, has been handled to avoid lynch mobs, with innocent people being assaulted or killed. And maybe it was best handled that way. We would, however, like, eventually, to know the truth.
The authorities must perceive real danger of an explosion of anti-muslim sentiment.

R.S., thank you for this web site, and for staying on top of this case. We have not heard the last of it, for sure.

If a something walks, talks and looks like a duck (in this case what looks like an islamic inspired murder) why is it hateful to bring up the possibility that it is a duck, especially when everyone else says it is a monkey? When peoples lives are at risk or have already been lost why can't we have this basic freedom? I and many others just want the murderers of 4 innocent human beings murdered in a unbeleivably sadistic manner brought to justice. The thought of those little girls being tied up while watch their own parents throats being slit and knowing they are next makes me physically ill.

Robert Spencer and others brought up the possibilty of islam being involved because others seemed to be ignoring this very obvious possibilty. The dead deserved a full investigation without anything being swept under the carpet for the sake of political correctness.

Ofcourse Noresman would argue that we shouldn't have the freedom of speech to do this. Life without such freedoms is worthless.

Robert,

I want to thank you for keeping us informed concerning this terrible event. I also would like to thank all who posted on this site who has taken the time to bring forth different points of view and many questions that have not been presented. These are most important in the country becoming aware of the enemy. Without concerned and intelligent view and questions being asked, the country becomes passive, unaware, and blind as to what is going on. The disaster of 9-11 is a good example. It was not only a disaster if of itself, but a disaster in that the red flags have been flying for many, many years and no one “saw” it coming. It did cause a lot of people to realize there is a very cunning enemy we had no idea that existed in this world. The more people realize who the enemy is and the methods he operates with, the better we can prevent crimes such as this. It would be a crime not to. I will say this to you, Norseman, you have no idea what goes on in an investigation where there are a number of detectives and investigators. Every ones views, opinions, and theories are first put on the table - no different than the freedom to do so on this site. For you to condemn this right, makes one very suspicious of you and your intentions. After reading about all the brutal killings that the Muslims have inflicted on innocent people around the world in the name of Allah, I would not consider it a religion, but rather a devious cult. Now if there is any “peaceful” Muslims that would come forward and make an effort to identify the criminal element, then I will perhaps change my view. So, in the meantime, keep up the good work Mr. Spencer, Hugh, and DC Watson and all those on JihadWatch!!!!

P.S. Ofcourse there will be times when what looks like, talks like and walks like a duck is a monkey. However if we don't exercise the freedom to say and seriously and thoroughly consider it might be a duck, the times when it is a duck we may never find that out (because we refused to even think it could be so).

When someone gets death threats from Islamists, and the islamists celebrate their murder online, some even claiming credit for it it is political correctness gone insane to say "Gee it musn't be the islamists then. We will not investigate those guys at all. Lets see...I bet it was the an old grandmother with knee relacements...blah blah political correct blah." This kind of insane behaviour would be sort of funny and even excusable if peoples lives were not involved.

Isn't it remarkable that a Judges' family is tragically murdered and the media can not make frequent enough references to "white supremacist groups" as possible suspects. A New Jersey family is murdered in no less grisly a manner and media will not dare discuss the possibility of Islamic groups. Motive can be clearly established in both instances, but that doesn't seem to matter. In the next few days, one or more MSM outlets will run a special on the American Nazi Party or Skinheads in order to underline their terrible beliefs and brutal past. What are the odds that we will see a similar expose on Wahabi Islam?

During this time, most Muslims and Muslim sympathizers are riding high with what they consider a victory. They have been so unfairly targeted. They are sitting back watching the Muslim bashers backtrack or grasp for straws, as those Muslim sympathizers are claiming.

I would like to remind those smirking Muslims that at least people like Mr. Spencer and folks on this site only expressed suspicions. Yes, a few directly accused Muslims for committing this crime. All this has just been talk. Everyone here has talked and expressed opinions.

Would the Muslims like to be reminded of their reactions in countries like Sudan, Egypt, Lebanon, Nigeria, etc. when a Muslim person or family was killed, rumors would spread that the Christian neighbors did it, or Christians were behind it. Do you know how many innocent Christians were slaughtered as revenge killings?

Have postings by Christians and civilized people insulted your egos? Poor people. At least you can go to bed tonight not fearing that a mob of angry Christians will slaughter you as you've done and still do today to the minority Christians who live amongst you in the Middle East and other places.

Hey, RightWriter.
Here's something remarkable-- the method to their madness:

http://www.spj.org/diversity_profiling.asp
"Society of Professional Journalists"

Guidelines for Countering Racial, Ethnic and Religious Profiling
Diversity > Guidelines for Countering Profiling
On Oct. 6 at its National Convention in Seattle, the Society of Professional Journalists passed a resolution urging members and fellow journalists to take steps against racial profiling in their coverage of the war on terrorism and to redouble their commitment to:

Use language that is informative and not inflammatory;
Portray Muslims, Arabs and Middle Eastern and South Asian Americans in the richness of their diverse experiences;
Seek truth through a variety of voices and perspectives that help audiences understand the complexities of the events in Pennsylvania, New York City and Washington, D.C.

Guidelines

Visual images

Seek out people from a variety of ethnic and religious backgrounds when photographing Americans mourning those lost in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania.
Seek out people from a variety of ethnic and religious backgrounds when photographing rescue and other public service workers and military personnel.

Do not represent Arab Americans and Muslims as monolithic groups. Avoid conveying the impression that all Arab Americans and Muslims wear traditional clothing.
Use photos and features to demystify veils, turbans and other cultural articles and customs.

Stories

Seek out and include Arabs and Arab Americans, Muslims, South Asians and men and women of Middle Eastern descent in all stories about the war, not just those about Arab and Muslim communities or racial profiling.
Cover the victims of harassment, murder and other hate crimes as thoroughly as you cover the victims of overt terrorist attacks.
Make an extra effort to include olive-complexioned and darker men and women, Sikhs, Muslims and devout religious people of all types in arts, business, society columns and all other news and feature coverage, not just stories about the crisis.

Seek out experts on military strategies, public safety, diplomacy, economics and other pertinent topics who run the spectrum of race, class, gender and geography.
When writing about terrorism, remember to include white supremacist, radical anti-abortionists and other groups with a history of such activity.
Do not imply that kneeling on the floor praying, listening to Arabic music or reciting from the Quran are peculiar activities.
When describing Islam, keep in mind there are large populations of Muslims around the world, including in Africa, Asia, Canada, Europe, India and the United States. Distinguish between various Muslim states; do not lump them together as in constructions such as "the fury of the Muslim world."

Avoid using word combinations such as "Islamic terrorist" or "Muslim extremist" that are misleading because they link whole religions to criminal activity. Be specific: Alternate choices, depending on context, include "Al Qaeda terrorists" or, to describe the broad range of groups involved in Islamic politics, "political Islamists." Do not use religious characterizations as shorthand when geographic, political, socioeconomic or other distinctions might be more accurate.

Avoid using terms such as "jihad" unless you are certain of their precise meaning and include the context when they are used in quotations. The basic meaning of "jihad" is to exert oneself for the good of Islam and to better oneself.
Consult the Library of Congress guide for transliteration of Arabic names and Muslim or Arab words to the Roman alphabet. Use spellings preferred by the American Muslim Council, including "Muhammad," "Quran," and "Makkah ," not "Mecca."

Regularly seek out a variety of perspectives for your opinion pieces. Check your coverage against the five Maynard Institute for Journalism Education fault lines of race and ethnicity, class, geography, gender and generation.
Ask men and women from within targeted communities to review your coverage and make suggestions.
Web resources on this topic:

Informational Resources on Arab-Americans, the Arab World and Islam
100 Questions and Answers about Arab-Americans: A Journalist’s Guide
The Quran online (1 or 2)
The South Asian Journalists Association provides a stylebook, sources and a roundup of coverage for journalists.

Newswatch is a site dedicated to diversity in journalism, with commentary on media performance. It is a project of the Center for Integration and Improvement of Journalism of San Francisco State University and a collaboration between the Native American Journalists Association, the National Association of Hispanic Journalists, the National Association of Black Journalists, the Asian American Journalists Association and the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association.
Reuters explains its policy on the word "terrorist."

Maynard Institute for Journalism Education
The Religion Newswriters Association maintains an extensive set of resources on religion and covering religion.
The mission of the Anti-Defamation League is to combat anti-Semitism andbigotry of all kinds. One section of its Web site details how ADL leaders have responded to anti-Muslim and anti-Arab-American violence.
Articles

Nothing foreign about Islam in America

This episode will also no doubt hasten the oversight of the internet by the United Nations and by the US government.
Posted by Norseman

The slimy scumbags at the U.N. will NEVER get their filthy hands on the internet! The U.S. government does not interfere in the exchange of free speech, but those bastards at the U.N. would put a stop to it immediately, except the Islamic hate fests.
The U.N. would love to control the entire world and its corrupt bureaucrats conjure up new "treaties" daily to achieve that goal, at the expense of America. Screw the U.N. It should be dismantled, abolished, the sooner the better.
If you consider this a "hate" site, you're a deluded idiot. Compare it to the hundreds of vitriolic Islamic terrorist/jihadist sites where all they talk about is killing infidels and ruling the world. Get a grip!

Hey Fahadkhan:

Are Isamailis, Ahmadis, Sufis and Dervishes Muslim? No? I thought not. Muslims are so tolerant.

You are a hate monger and should be exposed, along with your ignorant, demented followers.

P.S. For the record, I am not a Muslim, nor do I support violence commited by Muslims other than in self-defense.

Posted by: Norseman at March 5, 2005 04:44 PM

Norseman, you're beginning to look like a real moby.

Did you eat paint chips when you were a kid?

Did your parents have the swing set too close to the side of the house?

Or, are you just this stupid naturally? Sandal licker.

There are two types of scum who harass Muslims in this country. I can just use simple words, but why do so when they spew venom against people who came here expecting to live a pleasant life, and watch it turn into a nightmare. The two monsters against Muslims are EVIL EVANGELICAL TOXIC TRASH and their ideological cousins DAMNED DEVILISH DIRTY JEW DEMONS.
Posted by: jolly_holy_man at March 5, 2005 10:45 PM

Oh, but we're told by Muslims that they worship the same God as the Christians and Jews, dumbass. Although Mohammed the child molester didn't create his alter ego Allah for centuries after the death of Christ. So you're comments are moot. What a fool. Go take your racist bullshit somewhere else, simpleton.

jolly_holy_man, bite me loser.

Talking of vile enemies.

That indignity is the provence of Muslims, vile enemies of reason, vile enemies of humanity, vile enemies of progress and decency.

The grave sin is that the vileness of Islam has resulted in champions of liberty, decency and humanity to ape the Muslims.

At least the "vile enemies of Muslims" haven't yet aped Muslims by kidnapping, throat slitting and decapitating their "enemies".

Islam is so wondeful, that despite it's oil wealth, not one Muslim nation ranks in the top 30 of wealthy nations, that 2/3rds of the world poorest people live in Muslim countries, that all Arab countries combined do not equal the exports (outside of oil) of a small country like Finland.

That Arab nations produce nothing of value, nor even that which they consume.They even have to import that which they wage war with.

Egypt was the breadbasket of Europe until the Muslim conquest. Algeria was a net exporter and the breadbasket of Europe until the Algeria Revolution when it became a Muslim nation.

Not one Muslim nation can meet the standards of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Arabs still engage in slave trading in the 21st Century, Iran hangs and stones girls as young as 13 for rape...errr adultery.

Misogny, honor killings, stonings, amputations, beheadings for minor offenses yet, or merely violations of "moral" codes.

What an enlightened wonderful POS Islam is.

Backwards, medieval, inverted, superstititious, dullard, it would be comical if it weren't so deadly.

Want something to laugh at Jolly Holy Man, look in the mirror and have a good laugh at a caricature of a humanoid.

I remain deeply suspicious about this whole case. The details here do not at all sound like those from any common robbery. It is all too convenient for too many people to bury this.

Let's wait and see.

Muslims cannot use any word other than Allah.

LOL. You forgot the 99 names of Allah. LMAO.

It is to the credit of Muslims that they offer more conciliatory words to christians and jews,

LMAO.. Yeh, as second class citizens, dhimmis', but Muslim "generosity" is extremely limited, only to Christians and Jews (and in Shi'a country) Zorastrians, and only to those who submit to second class citizenship status. Woe to the Bahai, woe to the real kafir, the atheist, free thinker, woe to the pagan, woe to the Hindu.

Hatemongers against Muslims must realize that you cannot harass without getting harassed

Then you admit that the Armanious family was murdered by Muslims for blasphemy. cool thanks for the admission.

However a sword has two edges, Muslims must realize that they cannot harass infidels without getting harassed.

The west was ignorant of Islam, until the rude of awakening of 9-11, and to tell the truth for the first year or two after 9-11 I actually thought that it was a MOSSAD plot, but no longer, and for that I have Muslims like you to thank.

You see I got off my duff and started studying Islam, it's history, teachings, it's practices, the history of the overly sensitive, pedophilic bandit whom you worship but whom Abu Bakr discarded like used rubbish.

I'm not going to argue in defense of Christians and Jews, after all I'm the real kafir, but don't start slinging around slurs about baby killers, ethnic cleansers, devil worshippers and especially pedophiles..LOL.

Christians and Jews would have to work day and night for a thousand years to catch up with Muslims in that regard.

Especially that pedophilic prophet of yours, who marries a girl when she is 6 and starts screwing her before she even has pubic hair or a period.

Pleazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
check this sites before you judge on us and then comment http://www.hyahya.org and www.sultan.org

If this turns out to be a crime with not the slightest connection to Muslims or to Islam (and one would have to find out more about the prison experiences of McDonald and Sanchez), this should not be allowed to obscure, much less erase, the most instructive aspect of the case for innocent Infidels: the immediate suspicions felt by Copts in Jersey City, and wherever Copts are – or were – free to speak their mind. From New Jersey to California, many were convinced that it was a crime by Muslims. Was that a crazy idea, or a perfectly reasonable idea, given the long experience Copts have had at the receiving end of Muslim “tolerance” and “peace”?

Should this crime not be what many Copts reasonably thought it appeared to be, a crime based on the desire of some local Muslims to punish uppity Christian Copts who too eagerly defended and promoted their faith, there will be transparent attempts by Muslim organizations to convince us all that Muslims are almost always blameless when they are charged, that the climate of “hysteria’ has reached a “fever pitch,” that unless any and every suspicion that falls on a Muslim is subsequently proven in a court of law, however difficult it is to meet the burden of proof, whatever the prosecutorial bumbling, that results in the the throwing out of evidence because of the way it was obtained or the refusal by the prosecution to admit certain evidence for fear of revealing sources then, we are supposed to believe, our suspicions based on what we can read every day about the plots and the schemes foiled, or those khutbas that whip people up to commit certain acts, or the videotapes, are all silly, paranoid, utterly without foundation.

There has been no miscarriage of justice here, and any suspicions that have arisen have arisen because of statements by Copts, who have reason to react to such events as they in fact did. No need need be deflected from a second of study of the theory and practice of Islam. If Western governments were to list not just the acts of terrorism that have been committed by Muslims, but also a complete list of all the acts of terrorism, the plots and the schemes, that have been disrupted at some stage in the discussion or planning, that list would not be short. Indeed, such a list should be circulated, published, so that the publics everywhere are well aware of the extent of the problem of terrorism as an instrument of Jihad – just as they need to become aware of all the other instruments of Jihad-conquest, including economic warfare, propaganda, and demographic conquest from within.

If these murders end up being the work of people who seemed not to be Muslims, that still does not rule out a Muslim connection. In Holland, the man who killed Pim Fortuyn was describedan “animal-rights activist”; he was also weak-minded and susceptible to suggestion, and someone made a suggestion that helped direct his mania at Pim Fortuyn, not because Pim Fortuyn had anything to do with animal rights, but because this man had become convinced that Pim Fortuyn was harming the “most vulnerable” members of society –in his view, these were the Muslim immigrants. At the moment, in Holland the “most vulnerable” are in fact the Dutch themselves; Geert Wilders, the most outspoken political figure who has warned about Muslim infiltration, moves constantly form army base to army base, and has six bodyguards; Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a member of the Dutch parliament, needs several bodyguards at all time. Surely this means something. And surely the fact that apostates from Islam, such as Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina (at www.secularislam.org and www.faithfreedom.org) use aliases is also telling.

The understandable suspicions of Copts may have led people to believe certain rumors; one still does not know to what extent these stories were invented and believed, or are elaborations upon worries. But what lay behind them was not some vicious prejudice, but reasonable suspicions based on centuries of Coptic experience of mistreatment. Here is just one Copt’s testimony, taken from a March 1 posting at Jihadwatch:

“Copts are not only persecuted but are also terrorised in all aspects of life. When the State cancels from the history books in schools 7 centuries of Coptic history is that not religious terrorism?
When Sheikh Shaarawy insults Jesus Christ and Christians on state television and is , almost immediately, decorated by the President with the highest honour isn`t that despicable from the religious standpoint? When Coptic students are forced to study the Koran in schools, but not their own religion, is that not religious persecution and terrorism?
When Moslem students refuse to shake hands with their Coptic fellow students, stating that they cannot greet infidels, is that not religious persecution and terrorism?
When Government institutions and private companies refuse to employ Copts and some of them even announce in the press that Copts should abstain from applying is that not a blunt and humiliating persecution? When priests and monks are killed on the streets for no reason is that not religious terrorism and persecution?
When minor Coptic girls are subjected to humiliation, kidnapping and rape and forced to the Islamic religion is that not undeniably persecution and creating terror in the minds of such young girls?
When Copts, praying in Church on Sunday are killed by Moslem fanatics, (Abou-Korkas) is this not a flagrant religious persecution and terrorism? Must Coptic worshippers be forced to go to Church in fear and with their gun?
Is the attacking of churches, monasteries and houses for handicapped children by the Army not an awful and inhuman terror for such peaceful people? Is that not an insult to a civilised country?
Is not all of the above a massive insult to a supposedly civilised country in the 21st century?
The Coptic cause is undeniably important to each one of us - SO LET US LOOK AT THE HISTORY and in doing so briefly we can identify 5 distinct phases:
PHASE 1 - lasting from the arrival of St Mark in Alexandria in the 1st century AD until the end of an extremely difficult and painful era during which the Copts faced brutal persecution. During this period the Copts willingly offered their souls in defence of their faith and this dreadful era lasted for almost 300 years.
PHASE 2 - a further 300 years during which Egypt was fully Coptic and, apart from the Roman occupation, this period was probably the best time in the history of the Copts.
PHASE 3 - lasted from 640 AD to the beginning of the 20th century. During this long epoch the Copts enjoyed highs and endured lows in a way similar to many minorities worldwide.
PHASE 4 - with the flourishing of the Egyptian National Movement from 1919 the Copts were extremely patriotic and were accordingly rewarded with a complete integration in the national political and public fabric. A wonderful era but one which lasted for only 30 years or so.
PHASE 5 - from 1952 the Copts started to face a new and uncomfortable reality with the increase of the Moslem Brothers culture in all layers of life. This reality continued to worsen and was mainly driven by two factors:
· the overall deterioration in all of the standards, sectors and segments of the Egyptian society, and
· the most detrimental and pervasive impact of the Petrodollar which allowed the Saudis to invade the Egyptian mind and in parallel spread their interpretation of Islam to all countries thus invading and purchasing minds and consciences to their evil Wahabite understandings.
Now let us have a detailed look at the last 50 years or so and here I give to you, from my perspective, some examples of how the Egyptian Copts were robbed of their rights and degraded and marginalized to become third class citizens.
Nationally and internationally it is known that the Soldiers` Revolution of 1952 took place with the support from The Moslem Brothers. Indeed from the first day they aimed at persecuting the Copts in accordance with their own Islamic principles.
Two weeks after the start of the revolution [the 1952 revolution of Colonel Nasser and fellow officers, who desposed King Farouk] my friend and business customer - Pilot Captain Hasan Ezzat - advised me to emigrate because of the Islamic and fundamentalist character of the revolution. He believed that the plan was clearly aimed at persecuting and humiliating the Copts.
In his book "On the road to Liberty" which was published only 2 weeks after the start of the revolution he confessed participating with Anwar Sadat in the killing of Amin Othman and Major Selim Zaki.
In 1955 Ali Pasha el Shamsy warned of the forthcoming persecution of the Copts and feared that they would be banned from senior positions - even though he defined the Copts as "the salt and fertiliser of the Egyptian soil". His warnings were ignored and his predictions materialised. Even now I`m not sure that the Government are aware that they effectively destroyed Egypt and dragged it into the deep pit of ill-repute where we are now.
Even Prince Talal bin Abdel-Aziz and Mr Khaled al Faisal warned strongly against driving the Christians from the Middle East with the consequent "Brain Drain" and exodus of talent and commitment. This appears to have been another warning in vain.”

All of this helps to explain why Copts have believed in a Muslim connection to these murders.

Copts should not be expected to forget about living as dhimmis, slowly asphyxiated by the much less numerous Arab Muslim invaders (and many of those Egyptian “Arabs”who now persecute the Copts are themselves descendants of Copts who, forcibly or under the pressure of dhimmitude, converted). Should the destruction of Coptic businesses, of the kind that routinely took place after the rabble-rousing speeches of Hassan al-Banna (as on November 2, 1945), founder of the Muslim Brotherhood and grandfather ("he was my grandfather") of Tariq Ramadan, be forgotten? Should all the events allused to above be ignored by Copts in the United States or elsewhere? And note, please, that long before the Western press anointed him as Saint Sadat, the Egyptian plotter had been jailed by the British for pro-Nazi activities during World War II, and was involved in the murder of Copts (during his rule, Pope Shenouda went into self-imposed exile in the desert, the only way the Coptic popes have to express their outrage at the persecution of Copts that is permitted, or often encouraged by authorities and the press, in Egypt).

The fears and suspicions of Copts were reasonable. And the reasonableness of those fears and that suspicion are diminished by this case, which is still very much up in the air.

If the reaction of Egyptian-born Copts was telling, so too was that of Egyptian and other Muslims. Islamic websites contained no outpouring of sympathy but rather glee. If Muslims had believed that no Muslims could have committed such acts, then they would have been vocal, up and down the land, denouncing suspicion. But they did not, and that is because they knew such a thing was hardly out of the question, given the attitudes that Islam inculcates.

These observations remain true, no matter who committed the crime, or for what motive. Mea culpas by anyone who thought there must be something to these stories originating with Copts -- and much investigation into McDonald and Sanchez remains to be done -- are, given all this, unnecessary.

O, he who hates vehemently, O arrogant one, thanks for playing not so Jolly, not so holy, half a man.

I do appreciate your contributions, because of people like you the real face of Islam is exposed.

Yeh tick off your paucity of female rulers, but don't forget to add that they were deposed because of the fragile and sensitive Muslim male ego.

Your women have to hide under the veil, because you poor things get too sexually excited and can't control your passions. One thing that Tariq Ali and Christopher Hitchens agreed on was that Muslim males are sexually repressed, that's why you are easy victims of the 72 virgin con game, wrap your genitals in gauze and blow yourself up so you can go to paradise (so you believe), and be serviced by every young and self renewing houris and young boys.

Decent Americans are those who are wakening up to realize that the Islamic goal is to make them live in an Islamic Republic of America and pledge allegiance to the Ummah, one nation under "Allah" with Shari'a for all.

Islam is incompatible with western secular values.

My suggestion then is to go to Saudi Arabia or Iran so you can enjoy your beloved Shari'a.

Behind closed doors, there are no moderate Muslims

BTW I can agree with you that Christianity is a religion of war, one of my favorites Robert Ingersoll said the same thing in Orthodoxy, but Judaism is the mirror image of Islam. You two are peas in a pod, siamese twins swing from the same branch of the same tree.

All monotheistic screeds are self righteous, absolutist, imperialistic and mutually exclusive, but of the big three.. Islam is the absolute worst.

If it weren't a nightmare it would be a comical joke, just like it's "prophet".

Zman I don't go to Christian sites for Christian apologetics, Jewish sites for Zionist apologetics nor Muslim sites for Muslim apologetics.

I talk to the competiton, not the salesman.

If I want to buy a Ford I don't ask a Ford Dealer or Salesmen about the product, I talk to critics, and read consumer digest.

But I know all I need to know about Islam.
After all I've read the Qur'an, (I have both the Ahmed Ali and George Sales version), plus access to others like Pickthal and Yusuf Ali on the net. I've read the hagiography of Muhammad by ibn Ishaq and Maxime Rodinson's (even apologetic) version of Muhammad. I'm reading The Search for the Historical Muhammad by ibn Warrag, The Origins of the Koran, What the Koran really says, awaiting reading on my desk are Jihad by Paul Fregosi, Islam and Dhimmitude by Bat Ye'or, Eurabia by Bat'Yeor, Jihad aby Paul Fregosi and I just finished the Sword of the Prophet by Serge Trifkovic, but even if I read nothing all I have to do is read Amnesty International Reports, the Hindu Press, or reports from Women's Rights organizations.

I do not judge arbitrarily either.

But I am also an adamant oponent of all theocratic ideologies, including the so called Christian Right and Zionism.

Zionism is not a theocracy.

The Prosecutor's clear delineation between "Robbery" and "Religious Motive" was the obvious tipoff that the truth was never being pursued. No one in law enforcement with half a brain would dismiss the likelihood that the murderers would be smart enough to take a few valuables to cast doubt on the truth. Just because some valuables were stolen and an ATM card was used does not mean robbery was the motive!

And regarding the ATM card: any two-bit crook knows where to find a hacker who can pull the PIN number off a card. So here's a theory: McDonald and/or Sanchez entered the crime scene after they heard the attackers leave (or when they smelled the dead bodies a day or two later). They grabbed valuables, including said ATM card. They took the ATM card to a hacker (or hacked it themselves on a computer), and were dumb enough to use it.

Sounds more plausible to me that a couple of moronic ex-petty-cons would pull a petty stunt like that, than to believe that they a) were smart enough to pull off a crime that required binding and gagging three women at once while holding a rifle, lying in wait for a fourth victim, torturing him for an ATM PIN, then murdering them all with a butcher's knife in Halal-style for kicks instead of using the gun; or b) were petty cons who were somehow so ideologically inspired by a prison conversion to Islam that they knew the proselytizing Coptic family living downstairs had to die a Halal death immediately.

Something tells me these morons had no idea what the words proselytize, Coptic, or even Halal meant before they were caught up in this mess. They're probably guilty of something, but not the ritual murder of the downstairs neighbors.

Yea, where-ever would we get the idea islam sanctions the elimination of questioners,critics,and mockers??

Thanks Hugh, fact beats fiction.

Giaour, i appreciate your posts, even where i disagree.

Jolly holy man, excellent reading your posts. They, and you, remind me of what pure evil is.

I find aspects of many belief systems, and societies, nonsense, but non so completely, so absolutely, as islam and those societies that run on that standard.

oh jolly holy man rot in your on self inflicted hell of hate.....silly puppy

The thing about Jolly holy man and his likes is that, even when they win skirmishes, they lose battles. His vicious, intemperate, threatening intervention, has reminded us why certain kinds of crimes are inevitably ascribed to Muslims; why, in fact, the presence of Muslims in any society inevitably leads to a world of fear and suspicion, of not daring to open your mouth, of fearing the trend of your own thoughts. Even if Muslims did not kill the Armanious family (and I agree with everyone who finds the De Fazio investigation unconvincing and suspicious), we know that they could have; we know that they have committed several such crimes, and not only in their own country, but in places like the Netherlands and Germany; we know that hatred and violence are being preached in their own holy places every day. We know that we do not dare discuss religion or politics in their presence. In other words, a massive Muslim presence is dangerous, even deadly, to individual liberty. And the likes of Jolly holy man remind us, those few times when it slips from our minds. We have nothing in common, you and we; but you should not be so eager to remind us, because if and when the war comes, we shall have been forewarned.

Having been threatened by Muslims on line for speaking the truth about Islam and Christianity I for one am not going to let this case just fade into the darkness of old news...What threats have I received? I have been told by Muslims that they will cut my tongue out and in a separate threat I have been told they will chop me up and feed me to their dogs.. This along with countless declarations that I deserve to die. .

Are the authorities thinking that an arrest is the end of this matter? We have a trial and evidence to weigh before I will concede that this was indeed a random robbery gone wrong. It might be a trite...But even animals do not defecate where they eat and last I checked robbers are at least as intelligent as animals. Why would criminals commit this type of crime in a neighbors’ downstairs apartment?

Another line of thinking: What would the authorities do with the reality that the internet could be used to mark victims and carry out heinous crimes? How would they investigate? How would they insure the safety of Americans and their first amendment rights on line? A logistical nightmare at best. It would mean monitoring...Cyber investigation of threats...and follow-up in the physical world...A real budget buster I would think IF they acknowledged the reality that what you say to a Muslim on line can get you killed... The solution is simple...Deny Deny Deny...

No, this case is still open in my mind and I will be following it very very closely. I will also continue to speak the truth about Islam on line and if I end up chopped to pieces I hope my relatives are at least as faithful as this families relatives and Robert Spencer have been at getting my on line activities and the threats I have received from Muslims known...

One more thought. I have decided to save all transcripts of chat threads where I receive threats from Muslims. This might be tedious but from the looks of it, necessary. I suggest all chatters that run into Muslims on line and receive threats do the same. It might take a few "random" cut throats, but the truth will come to light.

These murders sure ain't final for me. I'm heartened to see so many comments here. Jihad Watch is one of the best websites for keeping abreast with Islam and Jihadist Islam

This case has to be about more than robbery. Robbery usually does not involve
extreme brutality, it takes time to torture, time the perpetrators don’t want to
waste on non-objectives. To commit a brutal murder like this one, involves
personal hatred. I find it hard to believe this crime would have of the
quite and quick nature. If robbery was the motive, the perpetrators have to
be some of the dumbest criminals yet. Four murders for one ATM card.
I hope the police are withholding info, if not, the local authorities must replace
the pretenders in charge.

What the heck? There was no full moon last night, what brought out the hatemongers? Barron, norseman, roly_poly_man.... Must have been a slow night on the leftist chats, they are losing so much ground around the world...

At least zman is pleading for a bit of moderation.

Giaour! So nice to be in agreement with a lot of what you said for once. However I agree with another post, Zionism is not a religion. Fundamentalist evangelicals also do not stand a chance in hell of ruling the US and have nothing to do with real nutters like Hale.

Jerk hole boy must not get out of the apartment much. Seems his whole view of America is shaped from what he watches on the television. The preposterous and prejudiced interpretation of American history he apparently gets from books that were no doubt penned by secular left leaning authors and what he hears in mosques, that is whenever he can bum a ride to one.

To actually say that televised evangelical pastors (who I will concede in most cases are charlatans) hold enormous power over Government is one of the more ridiculous statements I've heard in a while. This clown usurps Naseem in posting inaccurate and patently untrue "information".

This is what pisses me off the most. It’s immigrants coming to America and then criticizing the nations history. Americans are proud of our History. Also, “Americans” who buy into the revisionist BS,the ACLU, the secular communists, all the whiney minority groups who attempt to place blame in order to illicit “white guilt”. I do not buy into their effort to change the country into some version of Europe. To all of these types I say *uck you, feel free to leave. As to the immigrants, I don’t recall anyone ever inviting you to move here so why don't you just get the hell out too?

Good post #107 by cross. Yes, the moonbats have alighted on this thread to show us how tolerant they are of intolerant Islam. Truth is they post such nonsense to give themselves an ego-boost of how open and liberal they are. Ah, to be young and foolish and in love with yourself.

______ _______

From the Koran of the religion of assassinations, ambushes and sneak attacks:

"And when the sacred months have passed, slay the infidels everywhere; besiege them, capture them set every ambush for them."

"All war is deceit"

All monotheistic screeds are self righteous, absolutist, imperialistic and mutually exclusive, but of the big three.. Islam is the absolute worst.

America was founded upon and our laws are Judeo-Christian based.

When you remove the foundation of society, the structure of society will collapse.
A purely secular based society, is a society without moral values.
The standard will have been removed leaving no possible way to
determine right from wrong.

"America was founded upon and our laws are Judeo-Christian based."

Actually, most of the Founding Fathers were Deists:

http://www.deism.org/

That's a pretty far cry from Christianity. That's why Thomas Jerfferson said this about the Christian Bible:

"The whole history of these books is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."

http://www.deism.org/thomasjefferson.htm

I’ll revise my last sentence before some smartas* says something like.” Well whadda bout the give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses”…

It’s true that in the past, refugees and immigrants would come here, get the Green Card and become productive taxpaying citizens. Times have changed, America is not the innocent pup it was then and immigration needs to be drastically revamped.

Who are the new poor huddled masses of today? The honest hardworking freedom loving immigrant of the past is a rare breed today. They have been replaced by lot of criminals, cheats, scammers of all descriptions, ingrates, ne’er do wells, terrorist and communist sympathizers etc. etc. many of who think America should be destroyed. We should allow no more immigration until we instigate a more vigorous screening process that will allow only non anti-Americans in. (I can here the ACLU already) The few productive immigrants don’t make up for the many bad ones anymore.

PS: Maybe we should pass the “torch” (Frances great gift, the statue of liberty) to share with other countries. Perhaps Australia would like to park it in their harbor in Sydney. Then pass it around to other countries where everyone can experience the joys of accepting the worlds refuge along with the criminal masses.

(I can hear the ACLU already)

Susan, that's horrible that you've been threatened on line by islamofacist idiots. Of course, Joe don't believe that - or just doesn't care - but that's fine.

As someone who's also been threatened, I can tell you it's pathetic. I've been dealing ownage to a muslim website for some time on their radical issues and some of them have dropped back to this. There are some, of course, that are decent arguers, however, and don't.

Geoff

Mr. Presidents, what do you think of the Bible?

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."
- George Washington, 1st President

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen."
- John Adams, 2nd President

"That book, Sir, is the Rock upon which our republic rests."
"The bible is true. Upon that sacred Volume I rest my hope of eternal salvation through the merits of our blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
- Andrew Jackson, 7th President

"In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, I believe the Bible is the best gift God has given to man. All the good Saviour gave to the world was communicated through this Book. But for this Book we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it."
"Now let us treat the Bible fairly. If we had a witness of the stand whose general story was true, we would believe him even when he asserted the facts of which we have no other evidence. We ought to treat the Bible with equal fairness. I decided long ago that it was less difficult to believe that the Bible was what it claimed to be than to disbelieve it."
- Abraham Lincoln, 16th President

"My advice to Sunday Schools, no matter what their denomination, is: Hold fast to the Bible as the sheet anchor of your liberties; write its precepts in your hearts, and practice them in your lives. To the influence of this Book we are indebted for all the progress made in true civilization, and to this must we look as our guide in the future."
- Ulysses S. Grant, 18th President

"The more profoundly we study this wonderful Book, and the more closely we observe its divine precepts, the better citizens we will become and the higher will be our destiny as a nation."
- William McKinley, 25th President

"A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
- Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President

"I am sorry for the men who do not read the Bible every day. I wonder why they deprive themselves of the strength and of the pleasure."
- Woodrow Wilson, 28th President

"The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country."
- Calvin Coolidge, 30th President

"The whole inspiration of our civilization springs from the teachings of Christ and the lessons of the prophets. To read the Bible for these fundamentals is a necessity of American life."
- Herbert Hoover, 31st President

"We cannot read the history of our rise and development as a nation, without reckoning with the place the Bible has occupied in shaping the advances of the Republic."
- Franklin D. Roosevelt, 32nd President

"The Bible is endorsed by the ages. Our civilization is built upon its words. In no other book is there such a collection of inspired wisdom, reality, and hope."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower, 34thPresident

"My views- - - are the result of a lifetime of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference of all others—" Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush On April 21, 1803

I read something in one of the posts above about Christians following the devil. (LMAO) This comes from somebody who follows a murdering, lying, thieving, child-raping "prophet". The same "religion" that calls murder and rape good. You have to be deranged to believe that a god would want his followers to do evil in order to be "holy". The only one who would inspire his followers to steal, kill and destroy is Satan, who because of his desire to sit in G-D's place in heaven was cast out of heaven. You have been deceived, you are following the one that was predicted to be the BEAST. You are under strong delusion. Read the book for yourself, ask yourself if this is GOD?

When you remove the foundation of society, the structure of society will collapse.

With respect to America and one religion above all others, that is a myth.

A purely secular based society, is a society without moral values.

That is to say that there are no valid human values, only those that are supernaturally supplied. That is preposterous.

The standard will have been removed leaving no possible way to determine right from wrong.

This is simply silly and doesn't pan out. People create their own meaning and purpose in life. The value and significance of life comes from how we live life and not from a supposed supernatural lawgiver.

To say humankind cannot discern right from wrong and develop rules, laws, morals, ethics and what have you to govern it's interaction is akin to claiming human beings could never have built the pyramids therefore aliens must have had a hand in it. We've never needed aliens, supernatural or otherwise, to solve engineering or social problems, just a strong awareness of reality and regard for others. Both of which seem to be in short supply lately.

Back on subject: I don't think this is the last note on the Jersey murders. This will be an interesting trial to follow.

f.g.

Isn't it obvious to every one that no matter if Muslims are found to be involved in these murders the state of NJ will do everything in its power to prevent the public, and mostly the Christian population from knowing it? They realize that this kind of event is a catalyst for continued violence among people in the area and across the country. They do not want to see violence erupting in the streets, for simple reasons of stability. I for one want to know, but I have grown used to being lied to. The Muslims should be very thankful to the investigators, they have much to lose from violent conflict with the Christian population in this country. Many I know would go to NJ just to aid the Copts if there was to be fighting, including myself. The Muslims should learn that they don't fair well in Christian dominated areas when they bring about war (Croatia/Serbia, They did ok in Bosnia, but Muslims are a majority there.)

It would be messy, but easy enough to wipe them out from this land. Despite their "large numbers", they don't even have a fraction of the population it would take to win against the vast majority. They wouldn't have enough to take even a large city, unless everyone just laid down like bitches. Anyway I got off a bit, but We should be pissed that we are being manipulated all the time by the media, so that we remain a PC culture. Screw PC, I want to know, and if that means violence well so be it, I want the truth and I doubt we will get it anytime soon. I'm thankful for this website, it's a glimmer of hope, and to anyone that posted something intellegent.

f.g.

It was in respect to America and the bill of rights. A purely secular society, has no basis for their moral principals.That is not to say they are incapable of creating principals. But the question would be, what do they base their principals upon? There have been pagan cultures throughout history that have practiced things like human sacrifice, I doubt they considered it wrong. Purely secular culture will yield wild results in regard to right and wrong as I understand them today, living here in America.

...the Theo van Gogh murder in Holland: a Sharia-prescribed killing in a non-Muslim country for what is a crime only under Islamic law.

I'll admit I didn't really follow this story as closely as the Islamo-obsessives like yourselves, but isn't it possible that the TVG murder was a case of a guy who was sick of being called a 'goat fucker' and worse by a public figure rather than a religiously mandated execution?

Now feel free to call me an idiot or whatever you tools do when somebody brings up a point that doesn't suit your islamofacist paranoia.

KentuckyGentry, you're welcome to your viewpoints, but I seriously would rethink your assesment that they're intelligent - you sound like a toothless idiot, very similair to the disgusting mullahs who issue jihads against innocent people. In fact you sound exactly like them.

perhaps we should just wait and see. maybe it really *was* a robbery and the robbers decided to slit the family's throats in a manner used by islamists to throw off the police. i mean, it's pretty dumb to murder the family who lives right under you without hatching a plan to get away with it. it is conceivable that these two men wanted the police to believe they were killed by islamists and killed accordingly, so the police wouldn't come after them.

then again, it's pretty dumb to show your face at an ATM. well i guess we'll have to see what happens...

bar,

A purely secular society, has no basis for their moral principals.


Sir or madam, that simply isn't true and you have no basis for making such a statement.


In 10 Myths About Secular Humanism Cherry and Matsumura point out the following:

Myth 2. Secular humanism derives its ethics from Christianity.
Some knowledge of philosophy, world history, or comparative religion should dispel this myth.
Nonreligious, humanistic moral systems existed before Christianity and independently of any monotheistic traditions. For example, consider India's materialist philosophers of 3,000 years ago (the Lokayata), the Confucians in ancient China, and the Epicureans, Skeptics, and Stoics of classical Greece and Rome.
Furthermore, the common moral decencies are found throughout the cultures of the world. Similar moral codes have evolved irrespective of religious belief or nonbelief, and Judeo-Christian morality is not unique. Scholars have found little if any original moral thinking in the Bible - the Ten Commandments were laid down by Hammurabi before Moses, just as Confucius stated the Golden Rule more than 500 years before it was attributed to Jesus.
On the other hand, liberal Christianity has been deeply influenced by humanism. The most important moral and political concepts of the modern era have developed out of humanistic thinking. You will search the Bible in vain for opposition to slavery or support for democracy and equality of the sexes!"

History and common sense itself refutes the notion the human race is incapable of moral or ethical standards without religious influence.

f.g.

I am finally loged in to this site, as a Coptic Christian, I was not surprised at the lack of coverage, and the poor way with wich the MSM covered this story. No surprise there, just look at the way the US has taken sides in international conflicts, that do involve Muslim-Christians. Starting with the Armenian massacres, which the US to this day refuses to acknowledge, so as not to "upset" turkey, the Cyprus crisis between Turkey and Greece, was a no-brainer, of course Turkey was in the right.
In the Bosnia debacle, the Serbs who have all the historical rights to the land were vilified, and the so called ethnic cleansing was disputed by all UN personnel (read Michael Parenti's book To Kill a Nation). Had it not been for the Christian Right in America, the civil war of Sudan, would not have gotten any attention, it did after 20 years and 2 million deaths, compare that with at most 2000 killed in Bosnia.
How much more should I cite, the situation in the Middle East is even more dire, the Jersey City Muslims are by far the most millitant I have ever seen, you would think that after the 9/11 massacre Americans would wake up, trust me, and learn from us, we have our country taken, our language banned, forced conversions, killings and forced emigrations, abandoning Egypt, is no small matter to Copts, it is our pride and joy, in the history of Egypt, the 20th century has been the first century we actually left, but we can't forget 7000 years of history.
That said I am gratefull to the American public, not the Administration, nor the media, my only faith is in the goodness of the Americans, who see through the "crap" of CAIR, bless you all for being involved, as to the Muslims who understand the danger, come on wake up and denounce the utter tyrany you dish to minorities, before you ask for the world to even consider you as part of the human experience.

Welcome aboard, Nileriver!

When I discovered this site several months ago, I thought it was a good source of plugged-in analysis with a point of view that is often ignored in many parts of the media. The Armanious travesty has exposed this site as just another blogger with an agenda, and a propensity for shabby reporting with dubious unnamed, and untraceable sources. There are few things more dangerous than idealogues cloaking themselves in the guise of objective journalists. I will continue reading this site, but with a better knowledge of what I'm reading. I'll need more than a few grains of salt to digest its content from here on out.

To all,

The fellows accused of this crime are innocent until proven guilty folks! That is the way it works in this country. Let the system run its course before you start proclaiming the guilt, innocence, or conclusion of this case!

Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of this case on this board? I don’t think so. The Muslim connection has not been resolved. Not in the least. Neither has the guilt of the arrested parties been proven.

You act like because someone gets arrested the case is solved all of a sudden. Hardly so, lets see the outcome of the trail before any finger wagging starts on either side. Good grief, don't you people watch "Law and Order?" :)

f.g.

f.g.

I found that site very informative. In light of those facts, perhaps my statement is to dogmatic. My apologies for inferring that a secular humanist has no moral values. I would still pose the argument that the basis of their principals are changing as their knowledge of human nature and the real world changes. While I do not agree with everything, we do agree on a lot of values.

Hammurabi's code was not really the earliest. The preceding sets of laws have disappeared, but we have found several traces of them, and Hammurabi's own code clearly implies their existence. He is but reorganizing a legal system long established.... When the Semitic tribes settled in the cities of Babylonia, their tribal custom passed over into city law. The population of Babylonia was of many races from early times and intercommunication between the cities was incessant. Almost all trace of tribal custom has already disappeared from the law of the Code.

You will search the Bible in vain for opposition to slavery or support for democracy and equality of the sexes!"

Types of slavery permitted in the Bible.
Voluntary servitude, voluntary permanent slaves, thief or criminal making restitution.
Laws governing these slaves : Hebrew slaves freed after 6 years of service (Exo 21:2), were released with liberal pay ( Deut. 15:12-15), runaway slaves are to be set free ( Deut. 23:15-16), excessive punishment forbidden ( Exo. 21:20) (Exo 21:26-17), slaves can become Jews ( Exo 12:44).

Involuntary servitude in not Biblical. This holds true for both Jew and Gentile (Exo 21:16)

The Bible also teaches full equality or both men and women. (Gen 1:26)

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (Gen 1:26 ESV)

“man” in the above passage, is translated into “adam” or "human being" from the original Hebrew. So “man” speaks to mankind, not just men in the gender sense.

Sincerely
Bar

You gotta love this guy!!

http://jewishworldreview.com/0804/chafets_2004_08_09.php3

August 9, 2004 / 22 Menachem-Av, 5764
Why not say it bluntly? Islam is an aggressive, violent political ideology
By Zev Chafets

The two men arrested in Albany for allegedly taking part in a terrorist plot were men of G-d. So friends and neighbors have been telling reporters. Mohammed Mosharref Hossain was a pillar of the local congregation. Yassin Muhiddin Aref was a prayer leader. They called their mosque the House of Peace.
The mosque belongs to the North American Islamic Trust, which runs many other mosques in the U.S. The trust is funded mostly by the Saudis. It has other enterprises, too, including a book club. One of its featured offerings is "Jihad: A Commitment to World Peace."

Or if you are not a reader, you can express commitment to jihad in action. Like the Albany warriors who, the government charges, signed up to help gun down a senior Pakistani diplomat on the streets of New York City, using a shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile.

The upstate jihadis are not unique. On the contrary, they are just the latest in a long and growing list of local Islamic "spiritual leaders" and national Muslim leaders who have been implicated in terrorist activity.

Take Abdurahman Alamoudi, for example, founder of the American Muslim Council (hailed in 2002 by FBI chief Robert Mueller as "the most mainstream Muslim group" in the U.S.).

Alamoudi faces up to 23 years in prison for "engaging in illegal business deals" with Libya. What kind of deals? According to court documents, he was part of a plot to murder the Saudi crown prince.

Then there are the three leaders of America's largest Muslim charity, the Holy Land Foundation. They are awaiting trial in Dallas on a 42-count federal indictment for funneling millions of dollars to Islamic terrorist groups in the Middle East.

The head of another major Islamic charity, Benevolence International Foundation of Illinois, was recently convicted of sending funds to Islamic terrorist groups in Bosnia and Chechnya. And so on and so forth.

At this point, I'm supposed to add The Caveat: Most American Muslims are peaceable, law-abiding, terror-hating folks. Islam itself is a "religion of peace."

Sorry, but I'm no longer convinced. It may be that Islam in its true form is as gentle as a lamb. But in the real world, it is an aggressive, violent political ideology. It may also be that a majority of U.S. Muslims object to the jihad being waged against infidel Christians, Jews, Hindus, atheists, agnostics and democrats of all denominations. But if so, they are keeping it to themselves.

After Abdurahman Alamoudi's confession of guilt, his lawyer, Stanley Cohen, warned that "there are those people who will seek to manipulate this plea into an attack on the entire Muslim community."

The Muslim establishment in America uses this form of intellectual jujitsu every time one of its leaders gets caught conducting holy war. Mosques and Muslim schools and institutions are hotbeds of agitation and terrorism? Why, just making the charge is a hate crime.

This trick has worked amazingly well on Americans who pride themselves on pluralism and good manners. For years, it kept the feds away from mosques and the politicians insisting against all evidence that Islam is nothing more than another path to the G-d of Us All.

But almost three years after 9/11, this hocus pocus is losing its potency. "There are terrorists among us," Gov. Pataki said after the Albany jihadis were arrested. He didn't specify because he didn't need to.

If America's Muslims don't want to be identified with America's enemies, they are going to need new leaders and loud voices. Slapping the word "peace" over the door of the mosque just isn't going to do it anymore.

SOMETIMES JUST A REMINDER HELPS!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her Amen

God Bless the Countries who have HEROS amen
pity the countries who need them [NOT]

bar,

Slavery is slavery no matter what you call it. Just ask the slave.

The Bible also teaches full equality or both men and women. (Gen 1:26)

You and I both know that you are reaching there. Christianity as practiced throughout history tells another tale I'm sure you'll agree.

I'm sure you are also aware that the NT teaches that women are placed under men in many regards and that wives are to subject themselves to the rule of their husbands.

The women's rights movement owes nothing to the Bible or Christianity. The rights of women, to vote, to have equality in the workplace, to exercise abortion rights, and equaility in the clergy has hardly gotten a helping hand from the predominent Christian organizations out there. At least they never did during my almost 40 years of being a practicing Christian.

However, none of this has anything to do with the fact that (insert your religious preference here) is not necessary for human beings to construct a code of proper conduct when interacting with one another.

The idea that we need a supernatural lawgiver or we self-destruct is just simply foolish. Particually coming from my perspective as an atheist where these religious laws were written by human beings to begin with. That is part and parcel why many of them are such nonesense.

Immutable laws laid down by the grand architect of the universe simply don't exist because no such being exists. What we have are traditions and laws of men proclaimed "divine" to further the ends of the administrators. Nothing more. Just like modern (insert your religious preference here) "spins" scripture to conform to modern ideas of proper conduct.

f.g.

More and More I believe!!
Genesis Chapter 16
9] and the angle of the LORD said to her “ Go back to your mistress, and submit to her harsh treatment” 10] and the angle of the LORD said to her “I will greatly increase your offspring/ and they shall be too many to count” 11] the angle of the LORD said to her further,” behold you are with child/ and shall bear a son;/ you shall call him Ishmael./ For the LORD has paid head to your suffering./ 12] he shall be a wild ass of a man;/ his hand against everyone,/ and everyone’s hand against him;/ he shall dwell alongside of all his kinsmen” 13] and she called the LORD who spoke to her, “ you are EL-roi” by which she meant. “Have I not gone on seeing after he saw me!” 14] Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi; it is between Kadesh and Bered.-

YES A WILD ASS OF A MAN WHO IS AGAINST EVERYONE????

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who will Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Destroy ALL islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen

bar,

Just to be clear: I really do think that the Bible contains a great deal of wisdom and insight. I just don't believe it is of supernatural origin.

By the way I talk about religion, I can understand why someone would think that I think all of it is bad; no not really. The supernatural beings and powers I don't buy into.
I have tried for most of my life to live by the Bible's teachings. The realization that I could no longer rationalize the existence of supernatural beings didn’t change the good I have gotten from it.

f.g.

P.S. Catherine, I agree about the Ismael impulse control problem.. Good angle on the whole thing B.T.W.

Am I suddenly in an alternate universe? ; - )

f.g.

Thank you for the clarification, I received a great education from our little debate.
That is a great link....

Bar

Anyone that hopes that these murders will turn out to have a Muslim connection is foolish and certainly in the minority of anyone who reads Jihad Watch on a regular basis.

Like I posted earlier no one's guilt has been proven yet. It's innocent until proven guiltly in a court of law in the United States. That goes for these guys who are charged and the Muslim connection.

The last thing we need is more radical Islamic violence anywhere. Better this is a stupid robbery gone bad. But the best thing is for the truth, whatever that is, to be found and the guilty punished.

f.g.