Jihad Watch Advisory Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald explores some of the implications of the suspicions, widespread among Copts in America, that the Armanious murders were religiously motivated:
If this turns out to be a crime with not the slightest connection to Muslims or to Islam (and one would have to find out more about the prison experiences of McDonald and Sanchez), this should not be allowed to obscure, much less erase, the most instructive aspect of the case for innocent Infidels: the immediate suspicions felt by Copts in Jersey City, and wherever Copts are – or were – free to speak their mind. From New Jersey to California, many were convinced that it was a crime by Muslims. Was that a crazy idea, or a perfectly reasonable idea, given the long experience Copts have had at the receiving end of Muslim “tolerance” and “peace”?Should this crime not be what many Copts reasonably thought it appeared to be, a crime based on the desire of some local Muslims to punish uppity Christian Copts who too eagerly defended and promoted their faith, there will be transparent attempts by Muslim organizations to convince us all that Muslims are almost always blameless when they are charged, that the climate of “hysteria’ has reached a “fever pitch,” that unless any and every suspicion that falls on a Muslim is subsequently proven in a court of law, however difficult it is to meet the burden of proof, whatever the prosecutorial bumbling, that results in the the throwing out of evidence because of the way it was obtained or the refusal by the prosecution to admit certain evidence for fear of revealing sources then, we are supposed to believe, our suspicions based on what we can read every day about the plots and the schemes foiled, or those khutbas that whip people up to commit certain acts, or the videotapes, are all silly, paranoid, utterly without foundation.
There has been no miscarriage of justice here, and any suspicions that have arisen have arisen because of statements by Copts, who have reason to react to such events as they in fact did. No need need be deflected from a second of study of the theory and practice of Islam. If Western governments were to list not just the acts of terrorism that have been committed by Muslims, but also a complete list of all the acts of terrorism, the plots and the schemes, that have been disrupted at some stage in the discussion or planning, that list would not be short. Indeed, such a list should be circulated, published, so that the publics everywhere are well aware of the extent of the problem of terrorism as an instrument of Jihad – just as they need to become aware of all the other instruments of Jihad-conquest, including economic warfare, propaganda, and demographic conquest from within.
If these murders end up being the work of people who seemed not to be Muslims, that still does not rule out a Muslim connection. In Holland, the man who killed Pim Fortuyn was describedan “animal-rights activist”; he was also weak-minded and susceptible to suggestion, and someone made a suggestion that helped direct his mania at Pim Fortuyn, not because Pim Fortuyn had anything to do with animal rights, but because this man had become convinced that Pim Fortuyn was harming the “most vulnerable” members of society –in his view, these were the Muslim immigrants. At the moment, in Holland the “most vulnerable” are in fact the Dutch themselves; Geert Wilders, the most outspoken political figure who has warned about Muslim infiltration, moves constantly form army base to army base, and has six bodyguards; Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a member of the Dutch parliament, needs several bodyguards at all time. Surely this means something. And surely the fact that apostates from Islam, such as Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina (at www.secularislam.org and www.faithfreedom.org) use aliases is also telling.
The understandable suspicions of Copts may have led people to believe certain rumors; one still does not know to what extent these stories were invented and believed, or are elaborations upon worries. But what lay behind them was not some vicious prejudice, but reasonable suspicions based on centuries of Coptic experience of mistreatment. Here is just one Copt’s testimony, taken from a March 1 posting at Jihadwatch:“Copts are not only persecuted but are also terrorised in all aspects of life. When the State cancels from the history books in schools 7 centuries of Coptic history is that not religious terrorism?
When Sheikh Shaarawy insults Jesus Christ and Christians on state television and is , almost immediately, decorated by the President with the highest honour isn`t that despicable from the religious standpoint? When Coptic students are forced to study the Koran in schools, but not their own religion, is that not religious persecution and terrorism?
When Moslem students refuse to shake hands with their Coptic fellow students, stating that they cannot greet infidels, is that not religious persecution and terrorism?
When Government institutions and private companies refuse to employ Copts and some of them even announce in the press that Copts should abstain from applying is that not a blunt and humiliating persecution? When priests and monks are killed on the streets for no reason is that not religious terrorism and persecution?
When minor Coptic girls are subjected to humiliation, kidnapping and rape and forced to the Islamic religion is that not undeniably persecution and creating terror in the minds of such young girls?
When Copts, praying in Church on Sunday are killed by Moslem fanatics, (Abou-Korkas) is this not a flagrant religious persecution and terrorism? Must Coptic worshippers be forced to go to Church in fear and with their gun?
Is the attacking of churches, monasteries and houses for handicapped children by the Army not an awful and inhuman terror for such peaceful people? Is that not an insult to a civilised country?
Is not all of the above a massive insult to a supposedly civilised country in the 21st century?
The Coptic cause is undeniably important to each one of us - SO LET US LOOK AT THE HISTORY and in doing so briefly we can identify 5 distinct phases:
PHASE 1 - lasting from the arrival of St Mark in Alexandria in the 1st century AD until the end of an extremely difficult and painful era during which the Copts faced brutal persecution. During this period the Copts willingly offered their souls in defence of their faith and this dreadful era lasted for almost 300 years.
PHASE 2 - a further 300 years during which Egypt was fully Coptic and, apart from the Roman occupation, this period was probably the best time in the history of the Copts.
PHASE 3 - lasted from 640 AD to the beginning of the 20th century. During this long epoch the Copts enjoyed highs and endured lows in a way similar to many minorities worldwide.
PHASE 4 - with the flourishing of the Egyptian National Movement from 1919 the Copts were extremely patriotic and were accordingly rewarded with a complete integration in the national political and public fabric. A wonderful era but one which lasted for only 30 years or so.
PHASE 5 - from 1952 the Copts started to face a new and uncomfortable reality with the increase of the Moslem Brothers culture in all layers of life. This reality continued to worsen and was mainly driven by two factors:
· the overall deterioration in all of the standards, sectors and segments of the Egyptian society, and
· the most detrimental and pervasive impact of the Petrodollar which allowed the Saudis to invade the Egyptian mind and in parallel spread their interpretation of Islam to all countries thus invading and purchasing minds and consciences to their evil Wahabite understandings.
Now let us have a detailed look at the last 50 years or so and here I give to you, from my perspective, some examples of how the Egyptian Copts were robbed of their rights and degraded and marginalized to become third class citizens.
Nationally and internationally it is known that the Soldiers` Revolution of 1952 took place with the support from The Moslem Brothers. Indeed from the first day they aimed at persecuting the Copts in accordance with their own Islamic principles.
Two weeks after the start of the revolution [the 1952 revolution of Colonel Nasser and fellow officers, who desposed King Farouk] my friend and business customer - Pilot Captain Hasan Ezzat - advised me to emigrate because of the Islamic and fundamentalist character of the revolution. He believed that the plan was clearly aimed at persecuting and humiliating the Copts.
In his book "On the road to Liberty" which was published only 2 weeks after the start of the revolution he confessed participating with Anwar Sadat in the killing of Amin Othman and Major Selim Zaki.
In 1955 Ali Pasha el Shamsy warned of the forthcoming persecution of the Copts and feared that they would be banned from senior positions - even though he defined the Copts as "the salt and fertiliser of the Egyptian soil". His warnings were ignored and his predictions materialised. Even now I`m not sure that the Government are aware that they effectively destroyed Egypt and dragged it into the deep pit of ill-repute where we are now.
Even Prince Talal bin Abdel-Aziz and Mr Khaled al Faisal warned strongly against driving the Christians from the Middle East with the consequent "Brain Drain" and exodus of talent and commitment. This appears to have been another warning in vain.”All of this helps to explain why Copts have believed in a Muslim connection to these murders.
Copts should not be expected to forget about living as dhimmis, slowly asphyxiated by the much less numerous Arab Muslim invaders (and many of those Egyptian “Arabs”who now persecute the Copts are themselves descendants of Copts who, forcibly or under the pressure of dhimmitude, converted). Should the destruction of Coptic businesses, of the kind that routinely took place after the rabble-rousing speeches of Hassan al-Banna (as on November 2, 1945), founder of the Muslim Brotherhood and grandfather ("he was my grandfather") of Tariq Ramadan, be forgotten? Should all the events allused to above be ignored by Copts in the United States or elsewhere? And note, please, that long before the Western press anointed him as Saint Sadat, the Egyptian plotter had been jailed by the British for pro-Nazi activities during World War II, and was involved in the murder of Copts (during his rule, Pope Shenouda went into self-imposed exile in the desert, the only way the Coptic popes have to express their outrage at the persecution of Copts that is permitted, or often encouraged by authorities and the press, in Egypt).
The fears and suspicions of Copts were reasonable. And the reasonableness of those fears and that suspicion are diminished by this case, which is still very much up in the air.
If the reaction of Egyptian-born Copts was telling, so too was that of Egyptian and other Muslims. Islamic websites contained no outpouring of sympathy but rather glee. If Muslims had believed that no Muslims could have committed such acts, then they would have been vocal, up and down the land, denouncing suspicion. But they did not, and that is because they knew such a thing was hardly out of the question, given the attitudes that Islam inculcates.
These observations remain true, no matter who committed the crime, or for what motive. Mea culpas by anyone who thought there must be something to these stories originating with Copts -- and much investigation into McDonald and Sanchez remains to be done -- are, given all this, unnecessary.
Mr. Fitzgerald:
First of all, I'm amazed at this brilliant post of yours.
Now, over at Ace of Spades HQ (www.ace.mu.nu), Ace posted the first release from the police in NJ on this situation. I presented a series of comments, speculative in nature, which I will tie together into one single post herein. All times noted below are Eastern Standard Time.
--------------------------------
Post #1 March 4, 10:24 PM:
Weren't these people Coptic Christians (Egyptian Christians; www.copts.com)?
I believe that there are large groups of Muslims and Coptic Christians in New Jersey, and this particular family was getting pretty vocal about their distaste for Islam, both online and in public.
This sure sounds like some revelations from Allah that Muhammad received regarding Christians and Jews:
"And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e., worshipping others besides Allah) and religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do."
--Surah 8:39, The Noble Quran
And this:
"O you who have been given the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have revealed (to Muhammad) confirming what is (already) with you, before We efface faces (by making them like the back of necks; without nose, mouth, eyes) and turn them hind-wards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers. And the commandment of Allah is always executed."
--Surah 4:47, The Noble Quran
In the Noble Quran, this Surah has a footnote at the bottom of the page, which reads "This Verse is a severe warning to the Jews and Christians, and an absolute obligation that they must believe in Allah's Messenger Muhammad and in his Message of Islamic Monotheism and in this Quran."
And this:
"Let not the Unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate them. Against them make read your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom you may not know, but whom Allah knows."
--Surah 8:50-60, Abdullah Usef Ali Translation
I may sound paranoid, but it sure seems to have all of the trappings of a terrorist hit job.
Of course, Ace is completely correct in saying that it's better to reserve judgment until the final truth comes out, but I'd aver that it's still OK to be suspicious until everything comes out.
I mean, NJ has lots of Muslims. And the last thing they need is a religious riot on their hands. If this was terrorism, they'd better get their case iron-clad before they say that. This isn't like the Shoe Bomber or other such lunatics. If this were an Islamic terrorist killing in the US, it must therefore be treated as a crime. But then, we are at war on terror (Islamic terror, mostly if not exclusively), and all government officials are trying to play a nice, careful game of balance.
And if they came out now and said it is a terror crime, and then were wrong on this, they could do some real damage to the Federal Government's war on terror. Who needs false accusations triggering riots from within? We're busy enough fighting this shit miles away from our own shores.
If it is terrorist-related, and they have iron-clad evidence, then, hopefully, cooler heads would prevail.
KCTrio
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Post #2 March 4, 10:48 PM EST
Sorry, forgot the verse of the sword:
"Fight and slay the Pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."
--Surah 9:5, Abdullah Usef Ali Translation
It wasn't fair of me to put up the other passages and leave this most important one out.
KCTrio
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Post #3 March 4, 11:01 PM EST
And, here's the US Copts Association Official Statement on Armanious Family Murder Suspects (http://www.copts.net/detail.asp?id=648):
The U.S. Copts Association commends the Hudson County’s Prosecutor’s Office on its apprehension of the suspects involved in the Armanious family slayings. Throughout the investigation, we have joined with the Armanious family’s relatives to support Chief Prosecutor DeFazio in his search for possible motives and suspects.
Both the U.S. Copts Association and the Coptic-American community are relieved that the brutal murders of Hossam Armanious, Amal Garas, and their two daughters Sylvia and Monica appear to have been in no way religiously motivated.
Throughout our communications with the prosecutor, the FBI, and other officials, we have stressed law enforcement’s need to explore all possible options potentially leading to the murderers. As we have demonstrated through public statements and media appearances, we have exercised caution in proscribing a religious motive to the murders. We continue to endorse good relations between Egyptian Christian and Muslim communities, both in New Jersey and abroad.
The U.S. Copts Association expresses its deep condolences to the Garas family over the loss of their loved ones and calls upon the New Jersey state judicial system to ensure the killers are appropriately punished.
Seems like they are taking the cautious route. Good call, Ace. No need to start the drum-beating until we know more.
KCTrio
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Post #4 March 4, 11:06 PM
One more thing:
Thee are 700,000 Copts living in the US, 200,000 of which live in NJ. There are approximately 200,000 Muslims in NJ, also.
Just some stats for perspective.
KCTrio
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Post #5 March 5, 1:37 AM
Tinderbox.
In Egypt, Copts live in quiet fear. They stay the hell away from the Muslims, emotionally speaking and church-attendance speaking.
Yes, they can safely travel to Cairo and keep their crucifix around their neck (in Saudi Arabia, it'd be confiscated at the airport), and can safely walk the streets without being shot to death. But they still have to pay their jizyah (tax) to the authorities, or they won't be able to continue practicing their faith. And then they just might end up dead. Another thing keeps them safe in Egypt: many of them are wealthy business men. And they attend university and serve in the military. And the Coptic Orthodox Pope lives in Cairo. Not too bad, by Arab standards.
Outside of Cairo, it's not as safe. Plus, about once every six months, a family or three will get slaughtered, and the government will do a pretty good job of cleaning up the messy business and keep it out of the media. And by slaughtered, I mean burned alive, bodies slit open from neck to abdomen, nice stuff like that.
So, the Copts leave Egypt, and obviously many have chosen New Jersey as their new home. There, they feel less afraid to keep silent, so they speak their mind and speak openly about their faith, just like anyone can do in America.
But then, there's all of those 200,000 Muslims there, too. I'd say that more than 95% are secular or traditional Muslims that pray, give alms, fast, accept Allah as the only true God, and accept Muhammad as His prophet, and make at least one trip to Mecca (if they can), but ignore Jihad. The traditional Muslims do all of those things, and consider Jihad a mental struggle (Sufism movement). All in all, they're probably pretty peaceful, kind, and very decent folks.
But then there are the fundamentalists. How many of those 200,000 in NJ are in this category? I don't know, but let's say it's 0.5%. That gives us 500 fanatics in the Garden State. So, if the Copts speak out in New Jersey, unlike they can do in Egypt, then those 500 radicals would be hell-bent on slaughtering some of those 200,000 Copts.
To put it more mildly, they'd be hell-bent on slaughtering the ones that are vocal about their Christian faith and denounce Islam. That's probably not that many Copts. But you see, if some radical Muslims did do this killing, it'd strike a pretty powerful message of fear in the hearts of those 200,000. And it just may yield the desired effect of some of them shutting their mouths out of fear, just like they do in Egypt.
I say, from this inductive speculation (granted, inductive logic is weak), it seems at least possible that the slaughter of this family was perpetrated by radical Muslims.
Just speculating. I'd love to admit that my speculation is wrong and it does turn out not to be the work of Muslim radicals. But as I stated before, if it turns out that it was, do you think those 200,000 NJ Copts will take it by standing silent? No. They'll push it to the hilt, using every legal means at their disposal, including the media, the judiciary and the law enforcement community. And some may even break the law. The question then becomes, how would the radical Muslims respond?
Don't know.
KCTrio
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Post #6 March 5, 1:44 AM
My numbers were of by 1/2. So, I'll keep the numbers the same, but assume 0.25% of those 200,000 Muslims in NJ are Islamic radicals.
KCTrio
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Post #7 March 5, 12:18 PM
I've followed this story from the beginning. It would have been better to provide the link to the rundown at Jihad Watch, but I didn't want to get into the motives or theories behind the killings. Others touched on those, indirectly perhaps, but they did touch on them. People in the comments mentioned the ATM video, and some other (light) aspects of the crime. Most said something along the lines of "I'm not ready to buy into this." And the folks at Jihad Watch say basically the same thing.
Instead of missing something, I simply tried to provide a perspective that perhaps some might not have considered...you know, the big picture sort of stuff.
Jihad Watch touches upon things I did leave out by making this statement:
It does, however, seem to eliminate the possibility that these killings were an American version of the Theo van Gogh murder in Holland: a Sharia-prescribed killing in a non-Muslim country for what is a crime only under Islamic law.
I had left out the Sharia part. Why? Sharia is Islamic Law developed over centuries, some ancient, some modern, and isn't tied directly to the most important aspects of Islam, the Quran and the hadith (the books on the life of Muhammad; acceptance of the six books of the hadith is what separates the Shiite from the Sunni sects of Islam; the Sunnis accept them all, the Shiites reject a significant amount of it, the stuff written by Muhammad's second wife).
The Sharia is man's attempt to make law out of those two primary sources; you know, agreed upon ideas that have been developed by scholars for centuries. I'm no Islamic scholar, and I'm sure a scholar of that type would probably be laughing at me for trying to summarize stuff that would take a treatise, but I believe the Quranic references I provided, the link to the Copts Web site, the numbers of Copts in NJ, and the number of Muslims in NJ provided some amount of enrichment for those that may have lacked that knowledge.
I took a speculative approach, using inductive reasoning; not the safest way to go about this stuff, facts are needed. And while though the stuff posited at Jihad Watch may be fact-based, it doesn't provide a complete picture of the crimes. And to paint that complete picture, you need all of the facts, or as many as possible. And that's basically why I tried to avoid fact-based speculation (which one cannot do if one lacks half of the facts); partial-fact-based speculation is the equivalent of conspiracy theory mental masturbation. And it also gives voice to CAIR and other such organizations to lash out in the media and scream "Insensitive! Hate speech! We're a religion of peace! You Americans are hurting our way of life!" And in a way, they'd be right. Or at least, they could claim discrimination and get any damn media outlet in the country to give them time.
Do the Copts get that kind of exposure? No, they don't. Their numbers aren't as big, and they don't have as big of a public relations war to fight. They want to simply live in freedom in a country where they aren't mental slaves living in fear. That's why the Copts' public relations guys are preaching patience and temperance, not pointing fingers at anyone until the truth comes out. At least that's what their mouthpiece is doing. So give them some credit for being temperate, and let the CAIR people keep making themselves look like the boy who cried wolf.
KCTrio
End Posts
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I'd like to know if you agree or disagree with my observations. I am only now beginning to study this issue (I'm reading the Noble Quran, have read Dr. Mark Gabriel's book, and plan on purchasing some of the books you reference on this site.
I'd be pleased to learn your from you or any of your readers, if they or you should be so inclined.
Kind regards,
KCTrio
Hey Folks...It is NOT just Coptic Christians that receive threats! I am a run of the mill Born again Christian that chats in Christian rooms and I have been threatened many times...The "shut the "f" ups" I receive from Muslims are usually followed by private messages wishing me death and those have been really horrid! From telling me I should have my tongue cut out to I should be chopped to pieces and fed to their dogs...
Susanc: A chilling post. Next time a Muslim tells you you should be fed to his dogs, tell him you're glad he's so moderate that he'll keep an unclean animal around.
Re the Armanious murder: If the police indeed did the right thing in arresting McDonald and Sanchez, I note several things:
(1) Apparently, use of the murder victims' ATM card seems to have led the police to them.
(2) Didn't someone say they lived upstairs from the victims? If so, they were in a position to know the family's schedule, have some interactions with them, and possibly learn the layout of their home. After all, as proselytory Christians, probable readers of the Bible, and Middle Easterners, the Armanious family may have shown the arrested suspects some hospitality.
(3) I sincerely hope the DA follows up on the extra information. However, the flight of the hallal butcher could be either guilt or mere panic at possible being a railroaded suspect at this point.
(4) Let's also not forget that the police have probably dusted for fingerprints, hunted minute clues in the victims' furniture and other household effects, and examined possible suspects who, if dropped as possible suspects, have to be protected. Hence, if some of the Armanious family's proselytes are themselves hiding from vengeful ex-coreligionists or have no forensic evidence pointing at them, they deserve to have their identities left unknown. If the hallal butcher was indeed cutting up sheep and chickens in his shop while the lowlifes were cutting up the Armanious family and fled only because he has a skewed picture of the way non-Muslim Americans think of Muslims, then he to needs to be ignored.
(5) And, didn't Northeast Intelligencer say something about McDonald having some kind of Muslim connection in prison? If so, it may be that he could be the lead to planners behind him.
Also, even if he is a dimwit, as some have posted, if it does turn out that the forensic evidence points to him, I wouldn't be surprised at his violence. American prisons are full of very violent people who don't always get the death penalty; and not a few less violent criminals go in and learn about worse kinds of crime to commit from others inside.
"Why were the Copts so suspicious?"
We know why they were suspicious. It's because they have a thousand years of persecution, in which murders like these are routine, from muslims in their history.
The real question is: why weren't the COPS so suspicious?
Comments from Northeast Intelligence on the Armanious murders
SLEEP WELL,AMERICA
By Douglas J. Hagmann
March 4,2005: One can almost hear the collective sigh of relief of many that the first names of the suspects arrested in the Armanious murders were Edward and Hamilton and not Abu and Mohammed.
Robbery, not religion was the apparent motive for slaughtering a family of four. Two punks with more charges between them than their ages were arrested, neatly culminating a murder investigation that caused every Islamic group to yell "foul" at the very mention of the possibility that Islam was a factor in these brutal slayings. In this case, it remains to be seen whether there was any religious component to the brutal slayings of this innocent family. The investigation is continuing, and all of the facts are not known.
While this slaying was indeed horrific, there is a greater problem permeating our society today. To their future peril, people are missing the larger picture, choosing instead to minimize or ignore altogether the undercurrent of hate that will soon eclipse anything we have seen in recent history. The tenants of radical Islam have made their way into a large number of mosques in the U.S. Those who dare call attention to this are labeled as "Islamophobic," intolerant, or worse. That same ideology is rampant on the Internet; I'm certain that if the Armanious family were still alive, they would tell you just how pervasive it is. So, how do we, as a society, respond to this hate-filled ideology? Take a look at how the federal law enforcement agencies charged with investigating such crimes is dealing with this issue.
To insure that every federal law enforcement agent in the U.S. is made aware that Islam is a peaceful religion, sensitivity training and cultural education is administered under the direction of Islamic organizations such as CAIR, the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations that describes itself as just another civil-rights group.
CAIR has an interesting track record for defending militant Islamic terrorists, such as the perpetrators of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and the conviction of Omar Abdel Rahman, the blind sheikh who planned to blow up New York City landmarks. They even demanded the removal of a Los Angeles billboard that described Osama bin Laden as "the sworn enemy," stating that they found it "offensive to Muslims."
Regardless, such training will hopefully de-emphasize the Islamic connections of John Mohammed, the DC sniper and a convert to Islam, and Kerron Lavern Otis, the Beaumont, Texas man who stated that he was a Muslim and sought out Christians to kill. Oh, and the beheadings, well, that only happens "over there," and those who cite the Qu'ranic references noting its approval of such brutality are admonished that it is a misinterpretation.
In our current social and political environment, you can bet that a religiously motivated murder by Islamic fundamentalists will never receive the same public exposure as the murder of an African-American by a Caucasian, or a homosexual by a heterosexual. Not surprisingly, the hate speech spouted by Islamic fundamentalists in numerous mosques rarely warrants a mention in the major media, even though such sermons fuel hatred in an already polarized society. Such activity will continue under the radar of public perception until the slumber is again aroused by a mass casualty event.
Undoubtedly, most Americans will sleep better tonight with the assurances that the brutal murder of the Armanious family had no roots in religious hatred because the motive, as we are told, was simply robbery. Meanwhile, all across America, there are those who are willing to enforce Sharia penalties, and there will be those who will meet the same fate as the Armanious family. -----Sleep well, America.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1042520.cms
This site would be hilarious if you all weren't so dangerous. Thank God you've managed to so thoroughly discredit yourselves with this latest foolishness. I can't tell you how satisfying it is to watch you all grasping at straws, back-tracking, and desperately trying to save face after being exposed as the hate-mongerers you are. Your site, as well as many others of the same ilk, is being exposed as the giant JOKE that it is, and always has been.
My favorite response is from those of you who think this is just a big coverup by the authorities. Sure... yeah, that makes LOTS of sense.
Let's see... a large group investigators and prosecutors in this case face the prospect of a long, complex trial (or two, or three) with heavy publicity. And they're going to pull this off how? By deliberately framing two ex-cons. And dozens of people involved in investigating and prosecuting this are all going to risk their careers, reputations and fortunes to maintain this incredibly convulted conspiracy to coverup the real crime. Why? To protect the real murderers, ostensibly to avoid religious conflict. Because we all know how New Jersey law enforcement are such apologists for Muslim extremists...
!!!!!!!!!!
If you don't immediately see what a completely ludicrous theory this is, you are utterly delusional. You are blinded by your own hate. You desperately WANT this to be a Muslim crime, because your own rationalizations for hate-mongering so dearly hinge on it.
WAKE UP. LOOK AT WHAT YOU HAVE BECOME. BECAUSE IT AIN'T VERY PRETTY.
Oh, and here's my favorite sentence from this post:
"Should this crime not be what many Copts reasonably thought it appeared to be, a crime based on the desire of some local Muslims to punish uppity Christian Copts who too eagerly defended and promoted their faith, there will be transparent attempts by Muslim organizations to convince us all that Muslims are almost always blameless when they are charged, that the climate of “hysteria’ has reached a “fever pitch,” that unless any and every suspicion that falls on a Muslim is subsequently proven in a court of law, however difficult it is to meet the burden of proof, whatever the prosecutorial bumbling, that results in the the throwing out of evidence because of the way it was obtained or the refusal by the prosecution to admit certain evidence for fear of revealing sources then, we are supposed to believe, our suspicions based on what we can read every day about the plots and the schemes foiled, or those khutbas that whip people up to commit certain acts, or the videotapes, are all silly, paranoid, utterly without foundation."
Eh... Dude... You ever hear of periods? That's all ONE SENTENCE. One giant, rambling, convoluted, run-on sentence.
That you would string together such a sorry, fourth-grade level piece of writing demonstrates what a poor thinker you are.
Mr. Spencer:
So now you attempt to muddy the waters by publishing another incoherent screed by your stooge, the prolix windbag Hugh Fitzgerald. It will do you no good; the light of day is breaking over your little cult of hatred and you and your followers will be exposed for what you are.
It appears that you will be forced to wait a bit before you can send your lynch mobs into the streets. I hope that before you gain enough power to implement your genocidal pogroms a respectable civil rights organization such as the ACLU or CAIR will commence legal action against you.
Perhaps you should assemble your demented followers and flee the country. I understand that their is an empty compound available in Guyana.
"Hey Folks...It is NOT just Coptic Christians that receive threats! I am a run of the mill Born again Christian that chats in Christian rooms and I have been threatened many times...The "shut the "f" ups" I receive from Muslims are usually followed by private messages wishing me death and those have been really horrid! From telling me I should have my tongue cut out to I should be chopped to pieces and fed to their dogs..."
Hey Susan,
Could you do us a favor and cut and paste this stuff so we could see the death threats you have received? I think there is enough hate to go around, but it would be interesting to see it in their own words. Also, what were you writing at the time that inspired this reaction? This is simple curiousity on my part, nothing else. :-)
Hmmm.... I wonder how many of you go around the Web, hanging out in various forums and chat rooms, pretending to be extremist Muslims. Seems like a rather obvious tactic to me, seeing as how easy it would be, and how it would give you plenty of fodder for your witch-hunts and hate-mongering.
Do I deny that extremist Muslims exist, who want to harm America? Not in the least. But at least I have the good sense to distinguish between them, and the vast majority of peaceful, harmless Muslims.
"Could you do us a favor and cut and paste this stuff so we could see the death threats you have received?"
Yes Susan, our hate needs more fuel! Please give it to us!
Meanwhile, does anybody want to see all the death threats I get from patriotic, all-Amurican hate-mongerers just like you?
The sentence of mine adduced above as an example of my inferior prose was neither "giant" (Joyce wrote a sentence that was 4,371 words long, and look what that got him), nor "rambling" (it does not ramble, but piles telling period upon period), nor "convoluted" (only for those who think this is a periodic sentence in the Johnsonian manner, when it is rather a following, one upon the other, of relevant clauses, in the manner of the second sentence in Walden), nor "run-on" (the critic misunderstands the definition of a run-on sentence).
Now that I have read my own sentence over, and knowing that it, along with the posting of which it was apart, was composed in one uninterrupted go of less than 5 minutes, I am -- if not exactly lost in self-admiration -- nonetheless willing to give myself a little pat on the back, while giving the back of my hand to the critic of English prose style above. The sentence makes perfect sense, has rhetorical force, and adds to the pedagogic store which is being lain up here, at Jihadwatch, by many posters who have important observations to make, and evidence to adduce.
Furthermore, I was not unmindful of the reader's comfort, and deliberately placed a dozen commas, so as to offer rest stops for the gentle reader, so that he (or she) could catch his mental breath.
Objection overruled.
Excuse me Shmo... The message was to Susan, please keep your nose out of other people's business.
Excuse me Shmo... The message was to Susan, please keep your nose out of other people's business.
Sorry guys, I must have hit the entry button twice on accident. :-D
Mr. Fitzgerald:
I repeat: You are a prolix windbag.
"...the light of day is breaking over your little cult of hatred and you and your followers will be exposed for what you are."
Posted by: Norseman
It appears you give Mr. Spencer and Mr. Fitzgerald way too much credit in the shaping of minds and perceptions.
My perception of Islam way back in the early '80s was a bud of distaste which took twenty years to coalesce into ardent acrimony.
Hate is a base emotion which, if expressed properly, can be very useful in its application. To deny this human expression is to deny our human existence.
Are you saying that one may hate National Socialism yet tolerate Muhammad's Islam?
Have you ever read the Koran? Do you know the history of Islam? Before you lay down the whitewash for Islam wouldn't it be prudent for you to know the facts first?
I, like many others here, read Jihad/Dhimmi Watch to keep ourselves abreast of current news concerning what we accurately perceive to be a threat to our lifestyle and freedoms.
Wave the political correct banner all you wish, but please don't insult the intelligence of many here by saying that we have been indoctrinated into the Spencer/Fitzgerald "cult".
Many here are highly educated and had made up their minds about Islam a long time prior to Jihad Watch's inception.
Or maybe it is your mind that is being adversely affected?
"Now that I have read my own sentence over, and knowing that it, along with the posting of which it was apart, was composed in one uninterrupted go of less than 5 minutes, I am -- if not exactly lost in self-admiration -- nonetheless willing to give myself a little pat on the back, while giving the back of my hand to the critic of English prose style above.
Dude, the 18th Century called. It wants its overblown sense of pomposity back.
"Have you ever read the Koran? Do you know the history of Islam?
Have you ever read the Bible? Do you know the history of Christianity? Hey, anybody can slander an entire religion by selectively picking and choosing from these.
Suppose I want to paint Christianity as a dangerous threat to humankind. First, let's start with the history, because as you well know (unless you live under a rock), there are a multitude of violent, despicable events in history involving Christian fanatics. Like the Crusades, or the Spanish Inquisition, for starters.
Now, let's cherry-pick a few verses out of the Bible just to show how ALL believers in Christianity must be similarly driven. For example:
"Leviticus 20:10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death."
Wow, the death penalty for committing adultery! How barbaric! and it gets worse!
"Exodus 31:15: Whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
"Exodus 21:17: He that curseth his father or his mother, shall surely be put to death."
Wow! These Christians sure are a dangerous bunch! Look how ready they are to start killing everybody! Their scripture even commands them to do it! Scary!
Now, all we need is a contemporary example of a Christian man killing whole families of people. That will surely confirm that our greatest fears are correct. Hmmm.... Let's see, what's going on in the news these days... Oh, look!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10360-2005Mar5.html
"More Complete Portrait of BTK Suspect Is Emerging.
Dennis L. Rader, the government inspector charged with killing 10 people between 1974 and 1991, may have been a Boy Scout volunteer and active church leader."
Well! That does it for me! Clearly, these Christians are dangerous, dangerous people! We desperately need a website to alert all freedom-loving Americans of this serious, imminent, scary, terrifying THREAT to the SECURITY of AMERICA!!!
'Yes Susan, our hate needs more fuel! Please give it to us!' ~joeshmo
The only people who need to hear about your desire for more hatred, shmo, are the leftist academics, leftist political pundits and leftist press hacks who fed it to you in the first place. You fit their idea of 'progressive' quite nicely- limited to the lowest common denominator.
Extremist muslims... how does one pick an EXTEMIST muslim out of a crowd of peace loving musims? Do they wear a tee shirt that states they are a terrorist? Is it the guy with the shifty eyes and the scraggly beard wearing the coffee filter hat sitting on the steps of the mosque? Is it the muslim university student that is disgusted by the mixing of men and women in educational and social settings? Is it the group of 4 young muslim men in the car next to me....how can we pick them out?
The point is we cannot pick them out until they have either acted out or have been caught by law enforcement plotting to act out....in either case there are many liberal lawyers just waiting to take the case of yet another "abused" muslim, we have our law enforcement having their hands tied by CAIR and their "sensitivity" training. So either the muslim community roots out their own bad weeds (which they have been unwilling to do as of yet) or we sit quietly by and wait for the next attack. Next question...who will bitch the loudest when that happens...it will be the "muslims are our friends" crowd...why didnt the government do more to protect MY family...my husband/wife/etc just went to work, they didnt deserve to be blown up...or how about a beslan right here....how many of us would be able to forgive our child being raped, shot and or blown up by a muslim trying to get his sick twisted little point across...none of us....or the other side of the coin...if we had just given into muslim demands...this attack wouldnt have happened...and anyone that truly believes that should be in the first building that gets blown up during the next attack.
Back to "extremist" muslims....is Hooper(CAIR founder) an "extremist? He hasnt blown anything up that I am aware of, hasnt beheaded anyone...yet he did make this statement:
"I wouldn't want to create the impression that I wouldn't like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future...But I'm not going to do anything violent to promote that. I'm going to do it through education." - Ibrahim Hooper
In other words he is hoping for the fall of the US constitution and in its place a 7th century barbaric law that allows women to be stoned to death for the crime of BEING raped...I consider that extreme.
How about Omar Ahmed-the co founder of CAIR, certainly he isnt extreme...he doesnt run around in his PJ's with a long flowing beard screaming death to infidels that I know of...yet he did make this statement:
Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth." - Omar Ahmad
Hmmm sounds a bit extreme to me. If someone has a magical formula to spot an extremist in a crownd of peaceful muslims I would certainly suggest they contact the FBI with that information so that law enforcement can stop "harassing and abusing" "innocent" muslims.
Post 911 muslims reveled in the fact that the hijackers had been "let in" by lax policies and security...now that security has tightened and policies are not so lax...they have become the "abused" class...cant have it both ways.
" leftist press hacks who fed it to you in the first place."
Oh, so it's the leftist media who's behind the Armanious family murder, and not the Muslims?
Tell me, which of these is the most accurate statement, in your mind:
(1) Muslims really murdered the Armanious family, but the media, the police, and the prosecutors are all covering it up in a giant conspiracy to protect the Muslim murderers who really did it.
OR
(2) Muslims did NOT murder the Armanious family. As such, this website, by aggressively and prematurely implicating Muslims in an incredibly violent and horrible crime, unneccessarily increased hatred and anger towards the Muslim community.
Tell me, which is it? I'd really like to know what you (and others) think. I really want to hear you all trying to justify your pathetic positions a little more.
"The point is we cannot pick them out until they have either acted out or have been caught by law enforcement plotting to act out...."
Since when have criminals of ANY religion donned a t-shirt identifying them as criminals?
Look at the BTK killer in Kansas. A Boy Scout volunteer, and active church leader. He lived in the community for many years, and committed many crimes before he was caught.
Does that mean we should monitor all Boy Scout volunteers and active church leaders?
"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant."
Plenty of Christians have the exact same goal. So does that make them a threat to America? They sure have a lot more people in this country than the Muslims do. If anybody wipes out the Constitution to install a theocracy, it's going to be them.
Norseman:
'before you gain enough power to implement your genocidal pogroms a respectable civil rights organization such as the ACLU or CAIR will commence legal action against you'
'Genocidal pogroms'? As opposed to some other kind of pogroms?
Vainglorious dickhead!
"Do I deny that extremist Muslims exist, who want to harm America? Not in the least. But at least I have the good sense to distinguish between them, and the vast majority of peaceful, harmless Muslims".
Posted by: JoeShmo
That's mighty White of you, I'll even go as far to say Christian of you. I'll bet you even say most Blacks are not heroin addicted rapists who love watermelons. Or that most Irish people aren't alcoholic drunkards or that most Mexicans aren't really wetbacks from swimming the Rio Grande or that most Africans aren't fornicating AIDS patients. Man you are quite the egalitarian. Lol
"Prolix windbag"? That is sort of like saying, "a malcontent grouch".
With dictionary assistance, it seems our friend offers not only a primitive ad hominem worthy of his fourth grade class, but also claims a crowning conceptual sin all his own: Redundancy.
(3) Muslims really murdered the Armanious family, but the media, the police, and the prosecutors are all dressing it down in an effort to diffuse religous tensions raised by the ritualized murders. Rituals which conform to islamic styles, not Christian.
How's that for starters?
JoeShmo,
What does Christianity have to do with anything? This site is about Jihad and the last I heard Jihad is a doctrine unique only to Islam.
I will not "cherry pick" anything from the Koran other than to say that whole of the document is replete with the concept of Dar Al-Islam versus Dar Al-Harb (House of Islam versus House of War).
Dar Al-Islam is the part of the world which is under Muslim political control with Sharia as its jurisprudence. Dar Al-Harb is where Muslim law is not supreme (infidel lands).
According to the Koran and Hadith, peace can only be achieved when the world is ruled politically and socially by Islamic law. The Koran also states that it is incumbent upon Muslims to "strive" or jihad towards this end (world rule).
You have "cherry picked" verses from the Hebrew books and have provided a couple of examples of "Christian" behavior to illustrate a "parallel" between the three religions.
There is no such parallel.
I have shown that Islam is a polity with the sole purpose of controlling the world. If that happens, you and I will never have a conversation like this again.
Think about that for a change.
MARK LEPINE....doesnt sound like much of a muslim name does it. Mark Lepine walked into a university in Montreal in 1989 and gunned down 14 women in an engineering class. It was more than ten years later that the press finally admitted that Mark Lepine was an algerian muslim with an extreme hate for women....did they cover up the fact he was muslim, after all his upbringing as a muslim and the hate and distaste for women his father taught him directly influenced his decision to murder 14 young women.
We will have to wait to see what the investigation brings, but unless the 2 accused are extreme amatures or had an extreme hate for this family the murders were overkill. All that gore and ritualistic murder just to cover up the theft of a bank card...doesnt seem likely. It takes a special kind of sicko to tie up a small child and slice her throat nearly to the point of beheading her...there is more to this story than meets the eye, whether or not we will hear the entire story remains to be seen....and I do remember the media trying to downplay the fact that john mohammad was a muslim during the sniper case...in fact a few times they even used his previous name...and ALWAYS mentioned he was a "convert"
"(3) Muslims really murdered the Armanious family, but the media, the police, and the prosecutors are all dressing it down in an effort to diffuse religous tensions raised by the ritualized murders. Rituals which conform to islamic styles, not Christian.
How's that for starters?"
It's utterly ludicrous, for starters. You all obviously don't know the first thing about prosecutors and police. To repeat myself:
"Let's see... a large group investigators and prosecutors in this case face the prospect of a long, complex trial (or two, or three) with heavy publicity. And they're going to pull this off how? By deliberately framing two ex-cons. And dozens of people involved in investigating and prosecuting this are all going to risk their careers, reputations and fortunes to maintain this incredibly convulted conspiracy to cover up the real crime."
This is honestly what you think???
Hey man, thanks for completely discrediting yourself and your ilk. You've clearly demonstrated how totally detached from reality you are.
Oh dear Schmo, you just don't know, you just don't know - why must you blow, so freaking slow?
Your accusations of people running around on websites pretending to be extremist muslims is indeed amusing. I guess that we must also post from Middle Eastern countries too, or read Arabic, or defend the Quran too? And wait - maybe the CIA did 9/11, and the Jews Beslan. Or is it the other way around? You just never know with conspiracy theories.
LOL. Well, I found your Exodus passages amusing in the extreme. I can say without fear of any contrary argument by you that you appear to know very little about the Christians, or about Christianity. That's OT, not NT. Christians (I don't know if you noticed this or not) don't go around killing people who work on the Sabbath. Perhaps you've never been shopping on Sunday - come out of the bunker, and be not afraid. Heh. Oh yes, Rader killed people from the CORRECT interpretation of Christian scripture, sure sure - now you hold onto that fact, really tightly, and let it sing you to sleep. Don't want to lose perspective, do you? Look up the word "motiviation" before you come on here and run your mouth.
Now, I wonder if the same is true of islamic culture? Hmm...jail sentences for accidentally piling rubbish beside a mosque, death threats for insulting someone's islamic beard, to say nothing of the fate awaiting anyone who actually insults the "prophet" Mohammed. No religious connection there! No, you're correct of course: the two Scriptures just MUST be equivalent from a human-rights perspective. And followed exactly the same! Sure sure.
Or perhaps you could raise a single argument about islam (just an itsy-bitsy, teensy-weensy wittle wone) rather than trying to (and I have no idea how you imagine this is rational) play "you too" with a topic that isn't the subject of debate.
"Selectively picking and choosing" indicates, again, very clearly, that a little knowledge (yours) is a dangerous thing. The entire history of islam is replete with example after example. It would actually almost be easier to search for cases where outrage does not occur - they being much rarer.
Oh, and Schmo: websites devoted to the hate of Christians already exist (and a surprising percentage are islamic, although of course you probably wouldn't know that, never having visited any). Perhaps you might wipe the jizm stains from your keyboard and go a-looking. I'm sure you'll find somewhere that your self-cultural paranoia could blossom, and bloom. It is abundantly clear that that indeed "does it for you".
It was also interesting that your own hate doesn't really permit you to validate attacks on other people - including death threats. I've received them too. But perhaps these were merely other JWers, though! Of course! It would be SO much simpler then, wouldn't it, Wahhabi-boy? And what do angry postings regarding NATIONALISM (I refer to your inditement of - ahem - "Amuricans" and "patriots" who email you) have to do with death threats from religious cults? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Aristotle called, and he doesn't think you're cut out for his school of thought. He recommends transfer to Plato, beyotch.
Geoff
PS: Norseman, CAIR is not a particularly respected institution by anyone able to think on their own. As such, I am unsurprised that you refer to it. Fortunately, I understand that it's the receipient of a lawsuit or two of its own. I join with you in prayer that this will prove sufficient to finally end this source of rage and foul dealings in the US.
And - ah - er - where exactly, moron, does Spencer call for mob justice? You mean, like is done to apostates and disbelievers in Saudi Arabia? Funny...can't find it. Debate me. Go on. Got anything besides polemic?
pwnage
"Do I deny that extremist Muslims exist, who want to harm America? Not in the least. But at least I have the good sense to distinguish between them, and the vast majority of peaceful, harmless Muslims".
Still no answer as to how we distinguish the terrorists from the "fun loving" muslims...must be some magical formula to this that the rest of us havent figured out.
I will ask my friend...a former muslim...whose family was fairly well off, to look at no one would consider them "extreme"..yet when she was 17 they brought a 50 year old man over from India to marry her (years later she found out that her father owed this man a "favor" and evidently she was repayment) She ran away from home, and still more than 10 years later still looks over her shoulder as her father and brothers promised they would kill her for dishonoring them. Perhaps she knows how to spot an "extremist"
"All that gore and ritualistic murder just to cover up the theft of a bank card...doesnt seem likely. "
Well let me clue you in to something: Most violent criminals are dumb as rocks. They do things that are totally irrational and senseless. I couldn't tell you how many people are senselessly, brutally killed every year in the midst of a two-bit robbery.
You all are desperately grasping at straws. And quite frankly, it won't matter how thoroughly the police and prosecutors disprove any Muslim involvement. You will just put your hands over your ears and deny that anything they say is true. You are exactly like the looniest left-wing conspiracists who refused to acknowledge the overwhelming evidence that Dan Rather's evidence was fake. Even when it was proven fake, then the theory was that Republicans planted it...
Give me a break... When you go into deep-conspiracy mode, without the slightest bit of evidence beyond rumors conjured up on the Internet, then you've become delusional.
It's exactly like this commenter said:
"I will always believe that Muslims did this, no matter how much the media and the police attempt to put a towel over this pile of dump."
Yup, you just go ahead and stick your head in the sand there, buddy. Because you WANT to blame this on Muslims, and no amount of fact or truth is going to stop you from doing it.
Oh man, Joe Blow, you're dumb.
'Framing' cons? Oh, I see - you figure a guy with a European name couldn't possibly be islamic. Sure! None of them around. Nor, for example, could this guy have been exposed to islamic literature in prison, as other commentators have already suggested - and as one website reports an actual source for. Right right. You cram the case into your tiny little comprehensive area. Make it fit. If some of the facts leak out, well what the hell. YOU understand it, and that's enough.
LOL - and how exactly would they be risking their carreers for it? Because cops never cover up anything for any other reason - no, no. That never happens. And no one on high ever orders a change in focus for a criminal case. Nope.
You really believe THIS? Oh, man. Never happens, right? Well golly gee, not never, nossir.
Geoff
pwnage
"Still no answer as to how we distinguish the terrorists from the "fun loving" muslims..."
No, I responded. You missed it. So here it is again:
"Since when have criminals of ANY religion donned a t-shirt identifying them as criminals?
Look at the BTK killer in Kansas. A Boy Scout volunteer, and active church leader. He lived in the community for many years, and committed many crimes before he was caught.
Does that mean we should monitor all Boy Scout volunteers and active church leaders?"
Believe it or not, USAgirl, we all have to live with the fact that it isn't possible to stop all criminals before they commit crimes. This isn't "Minority Report". It's the real world. Things like liberty, freedom, and constitutional rights come with a price. We pay that price gladly, because we like living in a free society. And that society includes Muslims, the vast majority of whom are peaceful and innocent. Deal with it.
Good post USAgirl. Maybe Joey takey hinty?
When criminals are really dumb as rocks, they don't do ritualistic murders. Really! It's true! They tend to stab people (or, maybe, I don't know, shoot them or smother them or strangle them) rather than ritualistically slit their throats and stab a Christian symbol on someone's wrist. And, generally, they don't read islamic propaganda in prison. But don't worry about this; you're not concerned about people who don't think that crimes have been fully investigated in the US. 'Cause that NEVER happens.
I mean, hell - ONE GUY shot JFK. And his bullet did a magic fandango around the inside of his corpse. When will people ever accept that?
Geoff
pwnage
"Believe it or not, USAgirl, we all have to live with the fact that it isn't possible to stop all criminals before they commit crimes."
WTF are you talking about?
I note you admit indirectly that the murders could have been muslim though:
"Things like liberty, freedom, and constitutional rights come with a price. We pay that price gladly, because we like living in a free society. And that society includes Muslims, the vast majority of whom are peaceful and innocent."
Oopsie! So we 'pay a price', right? What price are you talking about here? Wait - it's not the murders, is it? Uh-oh... So some small minority of Muslims who are NOT innocent and peaceful did it, but we have a free society, so we need to pay for that. Because, really, how would an 'unfree' society that monitored muslims' every waking moment have changed that? Would it have caught the killers? This seems to be the contrast you're making here:
Free society - hey, murders happen (the 'price')
Unfree society (a different kind of 'price') - no murders.
Always have to pay a price, right? =)
But maybe you could re-think this one and get back to me.
Geoff
Joe - dealt with my comments yet? Or have you decided to "just deal" with the fact that people are not convinced about these murders?
Geoff
Oh - and you can now present your evidence for how these BTK murders followed Christian convention, as the murders of the Coptic family actually did follow islamic theology in the Quran.
Which I've read - and you haven't.
Geoff
"Since when have criminals of ANY religion donned a t-shirt identifying them as criminals?"
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003162.php
They look like religious criminals to me.
Sorry about all the comments - Rob, just ban this idiot. Him and Norseman. They have absolutely nothing to contribute in the way of logical debate here.
Geoff
I love this. There's nothing more fun than watching you all twist yourselves into knots trying to justify your ridiculous theories.
Some guy on the Internet (he has a source!) claims that one of the killers once talked to some Muslims in prison. Apparently, he was so thoroughly converted, he was turned into a fanatical, violent killer! And he talked his buddy into it too!
Yeah, that makes sense... Of course, we don't have a shred of evidence that either of the killers was actually Muslim. But hey, that can't stop us from speculating about it! After all, look where all this speculation has gotten us so far! Look at how much credibility we've gain with our oh-so-responsible speculation on this topic so far!
HILARIOUS! You guys are the Keystone Bloggers!
Come on, let's make up some more speculative theories! It can't help but destroy our credibility more!
How about a UFO came down, and magically converted the two guys to Islam? Yeah, that's the ticket!
You know, I wonder what it would take for you all to admit your wrong. For most of you, nothing in the world would do it. That's the wonderful think about conspiracy theories. YOU NEVER HAVE TO ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG! No matter how much evidence comes up, no matter what facts are presented, there's always some grand conspiracy behind them, and there's always some bozo on the Internet spreadying rumors that you can latch onto to back it up...
Oh my god this is Hilarious!!
At least the guys over at Obsidian Wings had the guts to apoligize. Criminy, even Michelle Malkin admits she's wrong! Michelle Malkin!!! You guys are crazier than Michelle Malkin!!! Hahahahahaha!!!!
Wrong ...there are criminals who are PROS, who are making a living at theft. They go in and out, know exactly what they are looking for...and yes sometimes get surprised by someone at home....if they do kill, its quick, shot or stabbed, they are not looking to set up camp in that persons home, tie them up and play games with them, they are not looking to get caught, they leave as little physical evidence as possible. Then there are the KILLERS, those who go in just to kill, perhaps steal a few little things to cover up the murder, which is what this case looks like, however during an ongoing police investigation we will never hear all the evidence nor should we. When there is a scene such as this one, where the bodies were brutaly violated there is more times than not a personal connection between the victim and the murderer, there are cases where a stranger kills in that type of fashion....but that is the exception more than the rule.
Besides once we all know how to distinguish the "peaceful" muslims from the "terrorists" we can all just go on about our business and not worry about our safety or security any longer...phew...no more worrying about another terror attack...now if the US would just abandon Israel, allow call to prayer from all mosques in america without having to go through all that pesky "noise bylaw" garbage, allow islam to be taught in our schools without us "racist"(when did islam become a race?) parents trying to stop it, impliment sharia law so that muslims can live as they are intended to, take down those offensive crosses and commandments, we would all be living in a perfect world....wouldnt we...anyhow before america turns from decadent and immoral to pure and islamic I had better go shop :)
No argument, Joey?
Really? You're calling something as tame as this a conspiracy theory:
Someone reads hateful literature and is converted. He concocts a plan to kill non-believers and carries it out.
THIS is your conspiracy theory? Oh, man. LOL
I win.
Geoff
JoeShmo, to take pieces of a 3500 year old code of law in the Old Testament, unused for the last 2000 years or more and thus historic artifacts of how things were seen and what the penalty was 3500 years ago, not now, not 1000 years ago, not 2000 years ago, and call that the same as the islamic terror whereby 14 year old girls ARE STONED TO DEATH IN IRAN TODAY, is stupid.
islam is a fascist ideology based on the life of a sycopath.
They aren't interested in debate, Geoff. They are desperate to find a way to silence dissent, just like kj but for different reasons. They can't stand the fact that their jihadist friend's sites are going down like tenpins while this one dedicated to finding the truth is left standing. If the internet had existed in the 30s they'd have been screaming against anyone opposing the nazis. Whom, oddly enough, the muslims marched right alongside of:
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/index.htm
http://humphrys.humanists.net/left.islamic.html
http://www.pmw.org.il/bulletins-050802.html
"So some small minority of Muslims who are NOT innocent and peaceful did it."
And you're calling me illogical?
Hey, I think a vast majority of Chrisitians are peaceful too. But a small minority of them are NOT innocent and peaceful.
So by your "logic", would that imply that the small minority of non-peaceful Christians committed the crime?
Please, spell out your "logic" for us.
"Someone reads hateful literature and is converted. He concocts a plan to kill non-believers and carries it out.
THIS is your conspiracy theory? "
Yes, it's ridiculous - And it's called a conspiracy because YOU DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE ANY EVIDENCE FOR IT.
Oh wait, I forgot, "some guy on the Internet" reports that the killer was converted to Islam, that's your evidence...
Oh, and you forgot that there were TWO people arrested. Tell me, what evidence do you have that the second killer was converted too?
You don't. It's all a bunch of irresponsible speculation on your part. It's all you can do at this point to rationalize your own hate -- to avoid having to admit what a stupid thing it was for this website to propagate its rumors prematurely, and to apologize for it like others have done.
STILL NO ANSWER...so if they dont wear identifying signs...then how do we distinguish the terrorist from the "peaceful fuzzy" muslims...you indicated that you were smart enough to be able to distinguish between them...enlighten us as to how...
I may look at a muslim in full islamic dress, that looks downright sinister...yet he may be absolutly moderate and mean no harm to anyone...or I may look at a "western" dressed muslim who seems friendly and polite...that is planning the next 911....so how can we differentiate, you seem to have all the answers...how can airport personal distingush between the muslim businessman and the muslim wanting to take down their aircraft?
On sep 11 2001 I went to work around 5 pm, at work were 2 guys both from pakistan, both muslims, neither of whom had made an anti-west comment, both very polite, rather quiet, pretty good workers....yet there they were caught by a group of workers in the employee lounge high fiving each other as the tv ran scenes of the planes hitting the towers, they tried to cover by saying they were talking about something else...but finally admitted that "although they dont condone murder(LOLOLOL) that the US got what it deserved) With emotions and tensions running high that day that was the wrong thing to say...they were dragged outside and had the crap beat out of them...and never returned to work there)...so did I misjudge these 2 guys who I thought were "OK" people, polite, reasonable, never did or said anything offensive to me personaly..yet here they were cheering the death of over 3000 innocent people....yes, I do tend to misjudge muslims.
Already schooled you on that. It was you who said we had to 'pay' for our freedoms, and that the vast majority of muslims were peaceful. So if we have to 'pay' for our freedoms, what did you mean by it otherwise? LOL. Come on, explain yourself.
So let's see - if the "small minority" of fanatical Christians might putatively have committed that crime, wouldn't they be missing motivation? Otherwise, where does the fundamentalism come in? What POSSIBLE role does it play? Oh wait - maybe it would be to FRAME muslims. Right? Cause Ockham's Razor wouldn't shave that theory down.
Again, THIS is the big conspiracy theory you're attributing to everyone here who doesn't think the history of the case, the nature of the murders, and the reported associations of one of the murderers (and NEED it be both, again? please explain) with radical islam match up with simple robbery? This is a conspiracy for you: that someone gets converted and then kills someone in the name of belief.
Well, hell then: Charlie Manson's crew were all "conspirators". And no one ever drank killer OJ in Guyana.
Geoff
pwnage
Sorry, Joey, just ain't so.
My position - hell, OUR position - is that the case hasn't been fully investigated and that the collusion of factors suggested religious crime. Or didn't you read those parts? That ain't conspiracy. It's called "doubt". Capice? You don't know jack about islam, or about me, so don't call me a hater.
And why exactly would he need to convince the second guy to kill them in the name of Islam? Robbery wouldn't be enough? He could say he was killing them in the name of the tooth fairy and it wouldn't matter so long as he got rid of the witnesses.
Then again, since the only damn thing stolen was an ATM card - still seem like robbery to you?
Geoff
pwnage
Bah, you're too much of a punk for me to bother with.
Everyone, ignore him. He's nothing.
Geoff
JoeSchmo - sorry to break it to you but we don't need some speculation on this website re the Armanious murders to rationalize our hatred of Islam (note I said - Islam (ideology)- not Muslims) - we just need to open the newspapers every day or read on the internet about what is going on ALL AROUND THE WORLD EVERY DAY in the name of Islam. Scroll through the archives of this site - all the posts having nothing whatsoever to do with the Armanious murders. It's actually quite laughable that you would point to this one case and imply See? Nothing to worry about. Islam is actually a Religion of Peace! And you folks are just hate-mongers. Thank God there are plenty of folks who are not fools. And their number is growing every day. And the Armanious murders are merely a tiny tiny blip on the screen. They are irrelevant as far as I am concerned.
"My position - hell, OUR position - is that the case hasn't been fully investigated and that the collusion of factors suggested religious crime. Or didn't you read those parts?"
In other words, what you're doing is "speculation". Maybe you ought to refrain from speculation (especially speculation that has a tendency to be incite hatred) until you actually know the facts -- how's that for a position?
And you know, if you're going to frame it as "OUR position", you'll have to distinguish yourself from the commenters who say:
"I will always believe that Muslims did this, no matter how much the media and the police attempt to put a towel over this pile of dump."
Because there seem to be a lot of those types around here.
Also, you ought to know that it doesn't make sense to refer to Islam as some monolithic movement.
Last time I checked, most Muslims in prison are associated with the Nation of Islam, not extremists from the Middle East. Members of the Nation of Islam consider themselves pretty distinct from Arab muslims, and likewise, most Arab muslims consider themselves as pretty distinct from the Nation of Islam.
Now, regardless of whether you like the Nation of Islam Muslims, they don't preach jihad against Coptic families... Disputes between the Copts and Muslims are Middle Eastern in origin, and that enmity was never adopted up by the Nation of Islam.
So maybe when you go figure out who the killers talked to when they were prison, you might also figure out what kind of Islam it was. Seems kind of relevant, don't you think???
"Again, THIS is the big conspiracy theory you're attributing to everyone here"
Well, you left out a piece didn't you? Remember? Dozens of police and prosecutors are ALSO covering up the Muslim involvement, right?
Because without that, your theory falls apart, doesn't it? And that's pretty conspiratorial, isn't it?
The problem with islam, JoeShmo, is that, while most muslims are 'moderate', as you say, there are those who, especially the youth of 'moderate' parents, wish to show how much better they are, how much more religious they are, than their parents. They take the quoran and hadiths literally, as do most moslems in the wahhabi sect amongst others, in a way that a Christian or Jew simply cannot take the 3500 year old edicts in the Old Testament, and these youth copy the example of their messenger, the sycopath, and they follow his instructions, all in the quoran and hadiths. This produces very dangerous young people.
The equivalent Christian follows the example of Christ, which makes him/her an asset to the society, and certainly peaceful. The equivalent Jew follows no 'ideal person' example, but rather a philosophy that has been refined over 3500 years, and continues to be, which, like the Christian, leads them to be pacific, almost ultra peaceful a la Jains or Buddhists.
So the ultra religious Christian and Jew, like the ultra religious Buddhist and Hindu, are ultra peaceful.
The ultra religious muslim goes the other way.
So, yes most muslims in America are 'moderate', but the ideology will always produce, from among the moderate, or the children of the moderate, assassins of Christians,Jews, Hindus and especially muslims who convert away.
If Germans were still being taught nazi ideology, the same would hold true for Germans.
Try to handle this JoeShmo - it is true, and doesn't make me anti-moslem, any more than anti-German. I am anti islam, as are most aware folk, and anti-nazi, as are virtually all Germans, credit to them.
Exactly, Caroline. Otherwise he'd be commenting on Every article, not just those regarding this case. One wonder why this case and only this case, of scores across the country, is the only one that concerns him, norseman, roly_poly_man and a few others.
Ah, and joeschmoo? I can't recall where the case took place or I'd have found the link by now, but I remember a hispanic man, who served 15 years, from age 17, for a crime that another person admitted to. Twice. To the person who convicted the hispanic man. And there was DNA evidence. And not only this guy (the Assisant DA) but a number of other people in the police force, conspired to take down that innocent man, because it served their own purposes. Not that it has done them any good since it was discovered...
So YES. There are people who are willing to risk their reputation and futures in such fashion. Prove it wrong.
"we don't need some speculation on this website re the Armanious murders to rationalize our hatred of Islam"
Oh, well maybe you don't, but it sure helps, doesn't it?
Thanks for making your motives so blatant though.
"Prove it wrong."
I see - so the burden is on ME to disprove your cockamanie theories, for which you've presented absolutely no evidence?
Yup, that's pretty much par for the course around here.
JoeSchmo - if you have so much aversion to inciting hatred why don't you take your protest against hatred to the doors of the thousands of Wahabbi funded mosques in this country that are spewing hatred against infidels every single day. And tell me - who precisely is sitting through those "sermons" instead of walking right out the door and boycotting the hatred expressed inside? Are "moderate" Muslims sitting there and listening to this garbage? And if so - why? If the number of extremists is so small, then why are the Wahabbi funded mosques not virtually empty?
"Exactly, Caroline. Otherwise he'd be commenting on Every article, not just those regarding this case."
No, I simply haven't the time to take on this task, as worthwhile as it is. I've got work to do. In fact, I've already wasted enough time arguing with all you hatemongers.
So this is my last post. Goodbye, and once again, thank you for so thoroughly yourselves. You've done the world a great service by firmly and blatantly planting yourselves in the tin foil camp. Good luck with all your future of this sort!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
Oddly enough, I only pity the schmuck. But I pity his family even more.
If you don't like it around here JoeShmo,
go away.
Find some islamic web site, can i give you a few, and learn what hatred is all about.
islam is its own worst enemy.
I started off with a 'live and let live' attitude towards islam, together with the sort of automatic respect that we tend to give a 'religion'.
The more i've studied islam, the more history i've read of the sycopath and his followers, the more understanding i've had as to the peril we are in, from this sycopathic ideology parading as religion.
JoeSchmoe "we don't need some speculation on this website re the Armanious murders to rationalize our hatred of Islam"
Oh, well maybe you don't, but it sure helps, doesn't it?
Thanks for making your motives so blatant though."
What effing motive Joe? I have no MOTIVE to hate Islam. I hate it for what it IS!! If it wasn't what it was - a doctrine of hatred, exclusion, misogyny, intolerance, and on and on and on - inspired by a mass murdering, lying, rapist and thief - i.e. an EVIL man - then why the hell would I hate it?
Do you expect me to embrace Nazism in the name of "tolerance"?
Like I said - thank God most people aren't fools and can't be intimidated by people like you who think you can succeed in "gaslighting" us.
JoeSchmoe--
It's a scary thought, if what we say about islam is true.
You're a fricken coward.
Good posts USAgirl and entertaining .... the one about the Muslim co-workers getting a sound thrashing for cheering the 911 attack.
Joeshmo:
How quickly you forgot the "Down-Syndrome"
victim of Muslims in Iraq during the Election
voting day,they put explosives on him and told him to blow himself up at the Polling station.
It was a BRAVE Iraqi that rushed the suicide-bomber about 300 feet from the line-up and forced him to detonate the bomb,Freedom and Liberty have a price and in Iraq Muslims made it clear that the old ways of violence and oppression under Islamic laws has no place in the 21st Century.
BTW,those that don't have the brains to debate issue resort to insults and attacks on the authors
to avoid responding with a factual arguement to counter any claims.
Say what you want about me,but show how you back your claims,at least the Islamists doing the beheadings cite the Quran and Muhammed for their
actions.
If you don't stand for something,you'll fall for anything.
Thanks Dennis :)
And I STILL havent received the oh so infinate wisdom of the person who is "smart enough to know the difference between a terrorist and a peaceful muslim"...and I suspect the reason is because this waste of oxygen knows as well as we all do that it is IMPOSSIBLE, and I dont feel that the price of my freedom includes having to be PC about islam and not hurt the oh so delicate feelings of muslims...in other words this asshat believes that we must wait for one of our schools to be taken over ala beslan, or wait for the next building to fall..or worse yet wait for a dirty bomb or a suitcase nuke to take out a major US city before we are allowed to question a muslim (oops and lets not forget we first have to prove it wasnt a CIA/Jewish plot first too) Wonder how that jackass will feel sitting and watching his childs skin peel off as they scream in pain because of the radiation poisoning and there is nothing anyone can do to help...unfortunatly this idiot is likely one of the few that are still grasping onto "the Jews did 9-11" theory and will sit and blame the US govt and the Jews instead of who is actually to blame.
Also heard no comment on Mark Lepine...gee all those years I had no idea he was muslim...go figure...and the PRESS knew and conveniently didnt mention it.
JoeShmo
Hop on over here and receive a free education.
Read the last post on what the Presidents think about the Bible...
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/005241.php#comments
Have you been hangout with giaour?
JoeSchmo: "Meanwhile, does anybody want to see all the death threats I get from patriotic, all-Amurican hate-mongerers just like you?"
That was JoeSchmoe at 1:09 - it may have flown under the radar but it suggests that Joe Schmoe is Muslim. If that is the case - JS - even if you are no longer reading this - I want it known that I hate Islam as an ideology but do not endorse violence against Muslims (or death threats). But people cannot be silenced against "speaking the truth" to Islam on the grounds that some lunatics take that as a license to threaten or commit violence. If they do that - then that violence is their responsibility and not mine. Because by that logic - all the anti-war protesters in the US - who have marched in the streets speaking "truth to power" - i.e. towards the Bush administration - will be directly responsible for the next terrorist attack on the U.S. (i.e. by inciting anti-American violence). Unless you endorse that kind of logic, then you have no grounds to conflate exposing the truth about Islam with directly inciting violence against individual Muslims.
I don't understand the "debate" between the vast majority of those who read Jihad Watch and JoeShmoe and the Norseman on the other side; it is quite obvious that the latter two have their own agenda; they simply refuse to recognize what is happening in the world for the last few decades; just to name a few: first WTC bombing; US Embassy bombings in Africa; the USS Cole; Sep 11; Mar 11; Bali; Beslan (or is it Belsan -- don't remember the proper spelling) where hundreds of innocent children were massacred; multiple bombings and murder of innocents by Chechniyans; Darfur; consistent murders of, and atrocities committed against Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. by Islamists; Judenrein and Christenrein philosphies in many Arab/Muslim countries; consistent acts of murder and atrocities commited against innocent civilians -- many children and infants -- in Israel; these atricties were committed by Islamists; they were NOT committed by Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. Given these FACTS, there is no purpose in trying to "reason" or debate with the likes of Joe Shmoe (aptly named, if I may say) and Norseman. Given this background, and the numerous public positions taken by Muslim religious leaders, it is not surprising that many of us simply do not believe that this was a robbery gone bad; this is emphasized by the fact that one of the victims here was repeatedly threatened with murder by Islamists for expressing his religious beliefs in the United States! Why not simply disregard the non-sensical comments of these two Islamists, or Islamist appologists?
Well look what's come out of the woodwork! Two 'dudes' that call themselves JoeSchmo and Norseman have come to Jihadwatch to say 'told you so, hate-mongers'. I bet they were just waiting for the police to arrest some non-Muslim sounding suspects just so they could post here.
Whether or not islam has anything to do with the motive behind the Armanious murders, it doesn't negate the need for sites like Jihadwatch - or discredit its members.
Sorry 'dudes', but the jury's still out out on the motives behind the Armanious murders until all the facts are examined. Either way, it doesn't change things.
Why would we think muslim fanatics murdered the Armanious family? Their throats were slashed to the back of their necks, and their faces were disfigured, much like described in the unholy quran. I think that the fact that investigators refused to even give any thought to the possibility that the murders COULD have been religiously motivated was the reason for me to question whether they WANTED to solve the crime. They were pooping their pants- hoping they could find another way to go with this.
THAT is why we are suspicious. We have learned that in this country that hate crimes are only committed by white people. The Beltway snipers were supposed to be white guys, well they were not. There have been cases after cases of crimes on the politically incorrect victims that just don't count as much as other victims. (Christians, Jews, etc.) The recent killing of the federal judges husband and mother is an example. The authorities immediately screamed "white power extremists". What a difference between the Armanious family and the judge's family's crime investigation. When the first press release came out, I thought "well, they are not going to aggressively try to find the truth."
Whether or not these two are the murderers or not, the question remains... why wouldn't the police educate themselves about the possibility that it COULD be a religious hate crime.
I did not make it clear in the post above that Christians and Jews, Hindus, and so on are NOT as valued as others.
Arrests Don't Ease Tensions - Bergen Record
http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2MDYmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY2NjI1NjImeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkz
Conclusion of Bergen Record article:
Some Coptics say the healing between the two communities will begin once someone is convicted for the crime. But they said that even then, there is no need to apologize for laying the blame on Muslims.
"We're not embarrassed about this because there is no smoke without fire," said Wahid Raahat, who was born in Egypt and has been living in Jersey City for about seven years. "We had reason to believe what we believed. There were threats against Christians in Internet chat rooms and there has been a history of violence and oppression against our people by Muslims. And while some people made accusations, there were no acts of violence."
ANTIJIHAD and other vigalantes:
We are not discussing here the many crimes alleged to have been committed by Muslims. Regardless of how you and that bloviating windbag Hugh Fitzgerald attempt to cloud the issue, the subject on the table is the Jersey City murders.
The facts are that your fuhrer, Robert Spencer, attempted to whip his demented followers into a frenzy. And many of you issued rabid calls for what amounted to lynch mobs to hunt down and exterminate Muslims. In fact, I think that you would be hard put to find a single comment thread on this site that does not contain at least one call for violence against Muslims.
Most of you are self-identified as raving bigots. I am confident that your identities are known to the authorities and that you will be called to account should any of you be so foolish as to attempt to act out your insane hatred.
It is possible, come on folks!, that this crime has nothing to do with Islam.
Robert has already issued a statement with the title of, "Final note on the New Jersey murders".
Mr. Spencer and Mr. Fitzgerald are capable of making a point, but all should demur at their every point.
It is our right to think for ourselves.
Norseman: "you will be called to account should any of you be so foolish as to attempt to act out your insane hatred."
Nah - no one has done anything but talk. We'll just get up in the morning and read the next installment of actual acts of murder and hatred committed in the name of Islam somewhere, someplace in the world, - even if not in NJ. We'll read about the hatred spewing forth in the mosques here at home, the insane hatred of Palestinian TV, and no doubt there will be the slow drumbeat of stories of a few Christians picked off here and a few Jews there and a few Buddhists or Hindus over there. Drip Drip Drip. The sometimes loud and furious but more often slow and quiet sound of Islamic jihad. And none of the perpertrators will be called to account for it at all. (witness - the Bali bombing sentence). But folks like you will come to JW and scream at a bunch of folks who have never done anything but express real concerns about an unmistakable pattern. Drip Drip Drip. The sound of another death or 2 or 3 or 100 in the name of Islam.
Norseman,
You are no hero. Get real and understand that your way of life (and mine) are under threat.
Not by Jihad Watch or any other such website, but by real folks with agendas who actively work the system in order to change the very laws which we have lived by our entire lives.
Are you ready to accept that kind of change in your life?
Will you go down quietly whilst your neighbor usurps your right to condemn his beliefs?
Is your neighbor worthy of condemning your beliefs?
Of course!
When the neighbor eventually knocks on your door after your God given right to spat and says, "You! Come with me!"
Will you go or will you fight?
Will you think about the esoteric monolog in which you now engage or will you wonder about the hard fought rights which your forefathers died for?
"adela" asks, "How is the public going to respond to something like this, who knows?!"
I know, Lots of candlelight vigils, interfaith prayer meetings (including muslims) and the formation of interfaith committees to promote understanding. We haven't the will to protect (or avenge) our children anymore.
Posted by: Norseman November 20 2004 07:31AM
Once upon a time the West would have done a bit more than "deplore" such a savage and barbaric act.
But those times are long gone. Christians today are no safer in New Jersey or Amsterdam than they are in Iraq.
Posted by: Norseman January 17 2005
Sounds as though Norseman has held the same views of things as the rest of us. He sure is self-righteous now though.
JoeShmoe, Norseman, and all who love to pull out the scary verses in the Bible:
I'm glad to see you are oh so solicitous for the well-being parricide wannabes. Are your kids big and strong enough yet?
Also, It's good to see people who are so progressive that they stand up for adulterers. In both Christian and Confucian cultures, people always seem to cheer the cuckolded husband who answers his shame with a few well-placed sword thrusts or bullets. There's a fine old Chinese novel in which the hero finds out that his sister-in-law has not only cuckolded his brother, but poisoned him as well, so he cuts her up and offers the pieces to his brother's ghost. Yes, JoeShmoe, it's good to see we've got civilized folks who'll come home, find the wife in bed with another man, and say, "Oops! Excuse me! I didn't now we had company! I'll just pour a beer and park mysefl in front of the TV." Or, JoeShmoe, would you advise us to take it a bit further and pimp for our spouses if it feels good?
They just can't come to grips with this:
By Robert L. Kocher
"Some of the people who believe in Mohammad may be pleasant people. So was Typhoid Mary. What the pleasant believers carry with them, or what lurks behind them, is lethal.
Islam also has its share of denial-ridden believers. Those Islamic believers are not necessarily suicidal or destructive in the complete sense described above, but they believe. They believe in the goodness of Islam despite any evidence of evil. There is a suicidal pattern seen in the jihadist suicide bombers that is more one of blind fanatic warlike dedication than of bland masochistic submission. The denial-ridden try to believe. They blind themselves to evil realities in those attempts. They don't know any better or they have presentation of no alternative.
The craziness and crazies of the Muslim world crouch down and hide behind the deluded with their sweet hopeful sincerity while the crazies work beneath the surface and in the underground to gain power and await their day to exert Allah's idealistic retribution. The oblivious pleasant true believers are the outside skin of a poisoned apple.
Their misrepresentation of Islam makes them more dangerous than that which they misrepresent. If you are sucked into their denials, wishs and fantasies about their own religion, the reality is likely to kill you. Every area where Islam exists has suffered accordingly or has had to fight against suffering accordingly..."
"People inhabiting a life of denial, including masochistic denial, outside the Muslim world also blind themselves to Islam's perversity. It is also a good idea to understand that the people most likely to betray you and deliver you into slavery are those who have aspirations toward oblivious personal sainthood. For those not similarly anesthetized by euphoric pious schizophrenia, being blown up, living in a concentration camp, or being burned at the stake along side them is rather unsatisfactory..."
http://freedom.orlingrabbe.com/lfetimes/sniper.htm
Whew! Thank goodness JoeSchmo was around to alert me to the many stonings of adulterers carried out by Jews every day. I'm not Jewish and I know that those laws were abandoned in favor of honestly repentant prayer almost two thousand years ago.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, you can now get Muslim beheading videos on the Internet, VHS, or DVD.
Oh, Joe, whaddya know?
Is your damaged logic
all covered wid snow?
LOL. I said I wouldn't bother, but I do so love to give another crippling kick in the crotch to morons who beg for it.
First off, the triumphalism in Joe's messages is a pretty clear indicator of his religion. Seen it a thousand times before. Prime example:
"thank you for so thoroughly yourselves. You've done the world a great service by firmly and blatantly planting yourselves in the tin foil camp. Good luck with all your future of this sort!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!"
'All our future of this sort', missing words (between 'thoroughly' and 'yourselves'), 'cockamanie' instead of 'cockamamie', and that faintest taint of grammer that ain't. Not to mention the over-the-top screaming laugh of hate. So, you're kinda a coward for not admitting that from the get-go.
Let's see now...oooh! Joey got points, even! Whoa.
"Maybe you ought to refrain from speculation (especially speculation that has a tendency to be incite hatred) until you actually know the facts -- how's that for a position?"
How's this for one - my take on the facts is that it wasn't a killing motivated by robbery, since the only thing stolen was an ATM card, and since the rest of the evidence suggests a religious motive? How's THAT for a position, punk? Not to mention the connection in prison.
Dumbass, the prosecutors wouldn't need to be deliberately covering up anything in any kind of conspiracy. It need only be a single word from a higher up to 'downplay' the religious aspects of this case for the public good and it becomes a simple robbery case...where the only thing stolen is an ATM card. (Funny, that. Joey, of course, offers no alternative opinions.) If you think that's a major conspiracy, then you've never heard of Marc Lepine. Or anything else cops ever do. Duuuh.
Second, I was quite surprised you knew about the divide between the Nation of Islam and Wahhabism/Shiism. That's not exactly common knowledge. Perhaps you could tell us, though, why that's important - as neither Wahhabists nor the NOI are noted for their abundant love of Jews or Christians. The NOI might well not preach hate of Coptic Christians - and interestingly, how would you know? - but they follow the same book, and the dispute between Christians and Muslims is written right there.
I own you, Joey.
A round of applause for Gary, Carolyn, Beagle, Kentim, Umma, Deg, dby and all the rest - my opinion of islam was much as their until I started learning more about it.
Geoff
pwnage
PS: Norseman - I know you're praying people here would do violence to muslims, as muslims do violence to other people. Keep praying, because it isn't going to happen. I know, I know - you can't understand rhetoric that's not backed up with violence, like it is in islam. Shh. Shh. It's ok, little fella. It's going to be all right. Shh. Don't be scared.
Guys, I do believe that Norseman's identity has been hijacked. The old "Norseman" that used to post here was a committed anti-jihadist, as can be seen from examples of his previous posts above.
The timely appearance of TWO muslim agitators is just too coincidental; note the similarities in their messages.
I Agree with CGW. I was wondering about that. Another person got hijacked in the past- 'Truth.' And these guys always seem to come in pairs. Might be a good idea to watch for them from here on- and be prepared to word your responses to the best of your ability.
Or ignore the bastards.
Especially ala-sux. =)
And AJ, MM, CGW - did I mention Kepha?
Vote the rock.
Geoff
>> At jihadwatch, Hugh Fitzgerald can't quite get over the fact that America still doesn't have its very own Theo van Gogh murder, which the site describes as "a Sharia-prescribed killing in a non-Muslim country for what is a crime only under Islamic law."
He begins paragraph after paragraph with qualifications like "If this turns out to be a crime with not the slightest connection to Muslims or to Islam..." and "Should this crime not be what many Copts reasonably thought it appeared to be..." Fitzgerald's grasping at straws is best exemplified by this line: "If these murders end up being the work of people who seemed not to be Muslims, that still does not rule out a Muslim connection." (He theorizes that the white culprits may have acted out of sympathy for muslims, just like Fortuyn assassin Volkert van der Graaf.)
I normally like the jihadwatch site, and agree with the prevailing sentiment among its writers and readers that radical Islam mortally threatens the freedoms that we in the western world have fought centuries to establish. Yes, we must fight back tooth and nail. But all this baying for blood and jumping to conclusions — and refusing to accept the reality that the suspected killers are named Edward and Hamilton, not Mohammed and Tariq — strikes me as more than a little unseemly.
Dante devotes 34 cantos to reporting from Hell, but only 33 to covering Purgatory, and another 33 to Paradise -- 100 in all. Just one more posting may direct this thread up into the empyrean.
Communicating the worries, and in some cases unshakable beliefs, of many Copts from California to Jersey City, worries and beliefs that, given their personal and historical experience, is perfectly understandable, is not “baying for blood." It does not require a conspiratorial frame of mind to think that if, as was widely reported, the father in the Armanious family had vigorously defended Christianity on websites, and received threats in return, and if the older daughter had, as was also reported, vigorously promoted Christianity among her non-Christian classmates, and if, in addition, some distraught Coptic informants were convinced -- as hardly seemed implausible -- that this killng had a religious aspect, then it was appropriate to keep demanding that the police investigate this possibility and not resist it because many simply do not know about the treatment of the Copts in Egypt, nor about specific instances, in recent months even, of mistreatment, including charges of rape, kidnapping, and murder of individual Copts.
When Coptic informants supplied information to Robert Spencer, it was not breathlessly reproduced as gospel but rather communicated, in part, so that the view of Copts right in Jersey City, who seemed to be familiar with the situation, would be given an airing, and taken seriously by investigators. If Edward McDonald and Hamilton Sanchez are convicted, and if the whole story is that the crime was part of a robbery, that should be the end of the matter. What would be unacceptable is to engage in conspiracy theories and to argue that there "must" have been a connection to Islam.
But there was no miscarriage of justice here. No one was arrested because of stories supplied by Copts. There was sober discussion of the possibility of a religious dimension to this crime. Was there not such a possiblity, and given the general diffidence about raising such matters, was it not wise to raise it? In Holland, where the leader of a major political party, Geert Wilders, must now live surrounded by bodyguards and has to live on various army bases, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a member of the Dutch Parliament, is always accompanied by bodyguards, and where two other prominent Dutchmen have been assassinated, why should Copts in Jersey City, given their personal history, and the reported nature of the killings, not have suspicions,and one can certainly imagine the atmosphere among the Copts in Jersey City and elsewhere.
A day ago, after McDonald and Sanchez were arrested, he Bergen City Record carried a report on Coptic-Muslim relations in Jersey City. The newspaper article ends thus:
"Some Coptics say the healing between the two communities will begin once someone is convicted for the crime. But they said that even then, there is no need to apologize for laying the blame on Muslims.
"We're not embarrassed about this because there is no smoke without fire," said Wahid Raahat, who was born in Egypt and has been living in Jersey City for about seven years. "We had reason to believe what we believed. There were threats against Christians in Internet chat rooms and there has been a history of violence and oppression against our people by Muslims. And while some people made accusations, there were no acts of violence."
"We had reason to believe what we believed." Given what you know about the treatment of Copts historically at the hands of Muslims, do you find Wahid Raahat's statement reasonable, or unreasonable?
Finally, there is the suggestion that, since those arrested have the first names “Edward” and “Hamilton” then any Muslim connection could not possibly exist. This conclusion would puzzle those who seized the Americans John Walker Lindh and Jose Padilla, the Englishman Richard Reid, the Australian David Hicks, the Frenchmen Christophe Caze and Jerome Courtailler, most of them already tried and conviced of Jihad-terrorism, with possibly one or two still waiting to be tried.
FLASH:
It has been reliably reported that the bloviating windbag who calls himself Hugh Fitzgerald is in fact a MUSLIM! His posts are calculated to bring scorn and disrepute upon the gaggle of bigots who frequent this site.
As for der fuhrer, the so-called "Robert Spencer", he is in reality a halal butcher who has recently fled the country for his Middle-Eastern homeland.
Norseman-
Your recent posts are sorely deficient in irony and/or humor. All you're doing is showing everyone what happens when you try to counter the counter-Islamists.
Reminds me of the old adage, "I've come to challenge you to a battle of the wits, but I see you've come unprepared."
Please go home now. You're no longer amusing.
Gimme a break and stop insutlting me. Yeh I'm a secularist, and a consistent one at that, which means I'm on equal standing when it comes to all religions, but I'm certainly no Muslim apologist, in fact I'm the bane of Muslims on forums where twits and twerps like you and Gary lack the cajones to show up.
You guys are cowards and only feel safe hurling epithets when you feel that you have the back of
your compatriots. I doubt seriously that you have the verve, nerve or ability to stand toe to toe with Muslims, leftist dhimmi's and rightist antisemites as I've been doing for the last year
Kafira: Norseman and joeschmo are in reality Muslims and probably born Muslims at that, Muslims, like their psychopathic god Muckhammerhead, have thin skins and ridicule rankles them, as a consequence, they believe that everyone else is like them and rankled by ridicule.
You might take notice of the nature of their posts, ad hominems, illogic, interspersed with childish attempts at ridicule and distraction.
Typical Muslim tactics (not at all leftist tactics), I've argued with both over the years, besides arguing with their counterparts the equaly credulous group of believers called Judeo Christians.
Posted by: Norseman at March 7, 2005 07:28 PM
As I have said before is a mussis!!!
Hugh you are right this is a fedlegling killing od a jihadi look all the signs are there!
Kill for money??
But they didn't take all the booty??
Think what robbers would live above their victim and kill the way these did if they did not think their rock god would protect them???
Look at the way in which these people were killed right out of the book [qu-ran]??
Funny how the defenders are out of the wood work REMEMBER the sudias have put the campian up a nocth??
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to Stay the course to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat give the World Courage to stand up and Fight this EVIL Amen
PS
Love what the Syairian said today I AM NOT saddam[FOUND IN A HOLE DON'T SHOOT I'M A YELLOW COWARD] now what do you think he ment by that?? is he a coward or not??
Norseman, the moron.
The only religion the real der Fuhrer admired and respected was islam. FACT. Why was that??
You are a dimwit, a sucker and a sap.
Now that the postings have passed beyond the bourne of 100, as was diffidently recommended in Posting #100 might be a fitting place to stop, we must all return to earth, with that sempiternal rose perhaps a bit worse (rhymes with terse) for wear. As for mundane matters, the giallo in question has not, one should bear in mind, yet been definitively solved.
Another point that proves that Norseman, Joeschmo, jolly holly not so holy man, zman, etc are Mooselimbs.
Mooselimbs only attack, at the point of weakness, or from ambush. In that regard they are cowards.
You will notice the absolute silence of these clowns on all other posts and threads.
It was only when Robert opened the door, about De Fazio stating that two men, with non Muslim, names, were arrested, did these clowns jump in on the forum. They perceived this is a weakeness, that they could exploit, actually it was an ad hominem, by attacking what they perceive was a weak argument in one case, they seek to discredit Robert, Hugh and the forum in all cases.
Otherwise they are noticeable by their absence.
A point in passing, that they have non Muslim names means nothing, so do John Walker Lindh, Todd (Ismail) Royer, Jose Padilla, Adam Yahihe Gadahn (Azzam the American), even Stephen Schwartz, whose Muslim name is only an affected, not legal name. The cops haven't mentioned what their mosque names might be.
A last word here, the operative word by which describe Western or Judeo Christian influenced culture is "guilt". Guilt doesn't play in the Muslim/Arab mind.
The operative word by which to describe Muslim/Arab culture is arrogance.
Westerners can be manipulated by guilt, and that is why they are charged with "hate" and fostering intolerance. Hurl such charges at a Muslim/Arab and they roll off the back, which if you peruse the various posts above in which the hate charge has been hurled back at them, Joescho, not so jolly and norsemen don't even respond..they don't respond because guilt is not in their pscyhological lexicon.
Arrogance is though, and their posts are chock full of unbridled arrogance, but their weakness is humiliation and ridicule.
But they are so full of arrogance they can't even see that they are exposing themselves and holding themselves up to ridicule.
Giaour
My apologies.
I didn’t mean to insult you. I was equating his anti-Christian views and yours.
Only in that regard did I think him and you agree..
Here is a message for all you trolls.
http://www.bigthumb.org/wav01/Odds_Ends/stupid.wav
Ya, Viss, Norseman! You've blown our cover! We're really all a bunch of reformist Muslims who are anguished over how evil men have perverted the rules of jihad while we're figuring ou ways to get along well with our Christian, Jewish, and other neighbors (even in Falastin/Israel!). Well, it's lunchtime now. I'm out for some dianxin (dimsum to you who've been exposed to Cantonese speakers) made with lamb rather than pork!
"It has been reliably reported that the bloviating windbag who calls himself Hugh Fitzgerald is in fact a MUSLIM! His posts are calculated to bring scorn and disrepute upon the gaggle of bigots who frequent this site."
Great jumping Jehosaphat! You mean that the normal condition of posters here is unscorned and reputable then. Agreed. Done and done.
Don't call me a bigot, tho, beyotch. You don't know me, and frankly I own you. Don't forget. Hey what's that other site he posts on? I'll go own him there too. And don't insult Hugh, beyotch. He's worth ten of you and your smelly dog too. ("It has reliably been reported"...LOL. Do all Middle Easterners go to the same damn English school? Holy crap. I mean, really.)
"As for der fuhrer, the so-called "Robert Spencer", he is in reality a halal butcher who has recently fled the country for his Middle-Eastern homeland."
Mein Gott! Indeed, zis Norseman has uncovered our zecret conzpiracy! Soon zey vill be finding out all about our National Bocalist candidate for next Vater-on-Schtoke elections, Mr. Hilter, a perzonal old chum of mine!
Me, I in Lincolnshire vas born, but stay in house all during war because of nazi - nasty! nasty running sores! not nazi running sores! heh heh - and vas unable to play ze football, and not go ever to Nurnberg. Er, not Nurnberg! Kent, I am meaning! And vas eating lots of chips and fish. Vas head of Gestapo for ten years. Er, five years! Err...vas not head of Gestapo at all - vas not even in ze war, but vas vindow cleaner and pazifist from Dunny-on-Vold!"
Anyway, can't recall the exact bit, but I think his points would be better suited to the above Monty Python sketch than here. Norseman's grasp of logic is as tenuous as his grasp of rhetoric. Silly troll.
Geoff
PS: My apologies to any Germans who were injured in my making of this posting.
It's just a Monty Python sketch, not to be taken seriously. Seriously, Leute. A sincere Entschuldigung. =/
Actually I hear it's pretty big over there. I love Monty.
"It has been reliably reported that the bloviating windbag who calls himself Hugh Fitzgerald is in fact a MUSLIM! His posts are calculated to bring scorn and disrepute upon the gaggle of bigots who frequent this site."
So the normal condition of people who post on this site is therefore unscorned and reputable. Agreed; done and done. Don't call me a bigot tho, beyotch, because I own you. What's that other site this punk posts on? I'll go own him there too. And don't insult Hugh.
LOL: "It has been reliably reported". Do all Middle Easterners go to the same language school? I mean, seriously. And "bloviating"? What a lovely never-ever used word that is. For your perpetual pericombobulation, git, 'bloviation' is only used to refer to the passing of wind by cattle or other rude, ignorant individuals, like merchants from Mecca.
"As for der fuhrer, the so-called "Robert Spencer", he is in reality a halal butcher who has recently fled the country for his Middle-Eastern homeland."
Mein Gott! Zis Norseman has figured out ze entire plan! He probably knows about our National Bocialist candidate for Minehead, Mister Hilter, a personal good jolly jolly chum of mine!
Me, I am from Lincolshire ge-coming, and could not play ze football outside because of nazi - nasty! nasty running sores, not 'nazi' running sores (heh heh - gulp) - so could not go to Nurnberg. Not Nurnberg! Kent I am meaning! During ze war I vas leader of Gestapo for ten years - er, five years! - er, vas not leader of Gestapo at all, but am vindow-vasher from Schtoke-on-Pembly!
Wow, Norseman's got it all figured out. I think his kind of logic belongs more in a Monty Python skit than posting on a serious website. Maybe he could play a rock, or a tick, or one of three bushes behind which someone is hiding. The saddest thing of all is that laughter is not permitted to him, so he'll never understand the above insult, and will be forced to respond with abuse.
Geoff
PS: My apologies to any Germans who were injured by my impersonation of Monty Python. Only a skit - a sincerest Entschuldigung.
PPS: Don't forget, Norseman - I own you.
Well lookie there - the first post DID get through! How silly. Though I'd lost it. Ah well. For everyone else: my apologies for the essentially double post. I think I like the second one better anyway.
As for Norseman: would you kindly take your pick of the two posts, tear off whichever one offends you the most, and cram it up your ass.
Sincerely,
Geoff
Regarding my previous post on receiving threats from Muslims on line, I was stating fact, not hate mongering. Muslims need no help in that area, they garner enough hatred on their own.
I posted my experience, in Christian Chat rooms, present time. You can discount what I have experienced if you like, but that will not change it.
Note I chat in Christian Rooms, I do not go looking for Muslims, they come to Christian Chats to promote their religion. When they run into the truth they get frustrated (Sorta like JoeShmo and Norseman) and when they run out of any logical arguments they attack (Sorta Like JoeShmo and Norseman)
They only good thing about the copious posting those two (JoeShmo and Norseman) have done here is when they have to eat their words it should be a great banquet for them:)
It seems silly to me to argue about the Coptic Murders in New Jersey. There is more to this than meets the eye, and an arrest is NOT necessarily the end of the case...Remember the Man arrested for the Atlanta Olympic Bombing?
Like it or not, My experience with Muslims has been horrid. I have yet to find one Muslim in a Christian Chat that is there for any reason but to antagonize and then attack. As far as saving the transcripts I did not do that. I will in the future.
An interesting note...Right after the 9/11 attacks we got a lot of Muslims in Christian Chats bragging that they have a pilots license too and that they were planning to do what the other Muslims did. These I reported to the FBI Tip Line, along with posting the URL for the Tip site. Funny how fast they disappeared. It seems to me Muslim "courage" is hampered by exposure to public display.
From previous post:"I have yet to find one Muslim in a Christian Chat that is there for any reason but to antagonize and then attack"
Well, duh. What other type of person would barge into a chat room of another religion besides an idiot jerk looking to proselytize. Every religion has em. I've never met a Yankee fan in my favorite Red Sox chat room who didn't want to taunt Sox fans, either. Of course the Muslims in a Christian chat room is going to be a meathead. Most of the Christian posts I read in Muslim chat rooms are written by morons with nothing better to do with their time either. Boy, so much on this site is just laughable.
bfrank, if the site is so laughable, why do you bother to come here? I am sure DU or Kos is intelligent enough for you.
bfrank:
And I suppose threats of death and dismemberment are a run of the mill occurrence in your Red Sox Fan Room? Please get real! You are talking apples and I am talking oranges here.
If you think you can minimize the Muslim threat by laughing it off, fine, but please note, your throat will slit as easily as anyone else’s when you laugh at Islam, Mohammed or Allah!
Your mocking attitude might be just be your way of rejecting the reality that Muslims do present a real danger to civil societies, but it is not going to help you at all when push comes to shove with Islam. Forewarned is forearmed...isn't it?