I Am Not Rich

A few weeks ago I published an article in FrontPage entitled "The Million Dollar Qur'an Challenge," in which I laid claim to the million dollars offered by Islamic apologist Jamal Badawi, according to NorthJersey.com, to anyone who could show that the Qur'an teaches religious warfare.

But alas, the Jihad Watch learjet has gone back to the shop and there will be no more trips to Gstaad, for Dr. Badawi has sent me a message explaining that the reporter got his challenge wrong. I am not surprised, as I have more than once fallen prey to blundering and/or malicious reporters. Dr. Badawi's letter follows, interspersed with comments from me. The bold type in his letter is in the original.

I apologize for the long delay in putting this up; pressing personal matters including a death in the family have made it impossible for me to draft a detailed reply to this sooner.

Dear Mr. Spencer,

Greeting of peace and thank you for your two recent emails concerning my presentations; one reported by www.NorthJersey.com on Feb. 14, 2005; and one in late 2003 reported by The Minneapolis-St.Paul Star Tribune and commented on by you in www.frontpagemag.com, which you sent to me on Feb 17, 2005. I am glad that this is the first time you communicated with me directly to seek clarification of my views on Muslim/Non-Muslim relations as stated in both presentations. Let me first a make correction to the NorthJersey’s report. I have never equated “religious war” with Jihad. In fact, I repeatedly said that Jihad is not “holy war”. The common error of translating Jihad into “holy war” seems to have influenced the reporter’s perception of what I said.

Speaking as someone who has been misquoted and misrepresented by reporters many times, I know how easily that can happen.

What I promised was to pay $1 Million to “anyone who can show me a single verse in the entire original Arabic Qur`an that ever used the Arabic equivalent of the term “holy war”, which is “Harb Muqaddasah”. That offer was repeated so many times in public, even on national television in Canada. I have yet to hear from anyone to prove the inaccuracy of my statement.

Nor will you ever, of course, because it is absolutely true, for what it’s worth: the Qur’an never speaks of harb muqaddasah. I discuss this in my book Onward Muslim Soldiers, noting there that Khaled Abou El Fadl, among others, has tried to argue that because the Qur'an does not speak of harb muqaddasah, that therefore Islam has no doctrine of holy war. I believe this is assuming too much, as I will illustrate below.

All the material you emailed to me did not meet that challenge.

That is correct. I was responding to the challenge as represented by the reporter, not to this one.

I was not joking when I made [and am still making] that offer. Nor was I joking when I stated that no verse in the Qur’an, understood in its proper textual and historical context sanctions waging war against others for the sole reason that they are non- Muslims.

On this we disagree, but I will respond as you make your points below.

The ultimate source of Islam is the Qur’an followed by the authentic teaching [Sunnah] of the Prophet. Opinions of scholars or actions of Muslims in history are to be evaluated and judged based on these two primary sources, not the reverse.

Apparently you used the term “religious wars” to mean any verse about war that says anything about God, disbelief in God, supporting the cause of Satan versus the cause of God.

While I did not actually argue that any verse about war that says anything about God must therefore make the war religious, I do think that saying that one group of warriors is fighting for the cause of God and another for that of Satan (cf. Qur'an 4:76, etc.) constitutes a war that is at least in some strong degree religious in character — particularly when the enemies are consistently and repeatedly described as “unbelievers” (cf. Qur'an 2:191, 8:12, 9:5, 47:4, etc. etc. etc.).

Others may see the term as waging war against other religions because of their “wrong” beliefs. This is the meaning I referred to when I used the expression “holy war”, which is its lexical meaning. A person may fight others because of their aggression with the view that injustice is against God’s commands, and remembers God whether in periods of peace or war. This “religiosity” as a motive to resist oppression and injustice does not make his actions a “religious war” in the sense explained earlier [holy war].

So we are to suppose that in 9:29, the fact that the People of the Book "believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth" constitutes "oppression and injustice" that must be "resisted" by Muslims? For in that verse the Muslims are commanded to fight the People of the Book who do not do those things. Does the non-acceptance of Islam therefore in itself constitute "aggression" against Muslims?

“Holy war” or “religious war” is not the equivalent of Jihad. Jihad is an Arabic term derived from the root “J-H-D” which means, literally, to strive or exert effort. It is the same root from which the legal term “Ijtihad” is derived since Ijtihad refers to the exertion of intellectual effort by scholars so as to come up with an informed religious opinion on a new issue or problem. The term Jihad and similar terms derived from the same root are used in the Qur’an and Hadeeth in various meanings. Firstly, it is used in the context of prayers, doing righteous deeds and self-purification; inward Jihad or struggle against evil inclinations within oneself [Qur’an, 22:77-78; 29:4-7]. Secondly, it is used in the context of social Jihad, or striving for truth, justice and goodness in one’s relationship with other humans. Examples of this usage include charity to the needy [49:15]. Thirdly, it is used in the context of battlefield, which is often called, more specifically, qital, meaning fighting. That later form; the combative Jihad, is allowed in the Qur’an for legitimate self-defense in the face of unprovoked aggression or in resisting severe oppression on religious or other grounds. In fact, the first verses in the Qur’an that allowed self-defense [22:39-40], were not revealed until the early Muslim community had endured more than thirteen years of suffering and aggression at the hands of the idolatrous Arabs.

I am well aware of the many meanings of jihad in Islam, as I have discussed at Jihad Watch and elsewhere many times. And I discuss in detail the evolution of the Qur’an’s teachings on jihad warfare in Onward Muslim Soldiers. What concerns me here is how you would respond, Dr. Badawi, to Muslims who argue on the grounds of the Qur'an and the example of Muhammad against your assertion that "the combative Jihad, is allowed in the Qur’an for legitimate self-defense in the face of unprovoked aggression or in resisting severe oppression on religious or other grounds."

For example, in an article entitled “The True Meaning of Jihad,” which was posted in 2003 at the website Khilafah.com, which is affiliated with the jihadist group Hizb-ut-Tahrir, one Sidik Aucbur cites the example of Muhammad against those who would argue that jihad is purely defensive:

Moreover some will say that Jihad was only defensive; this is incorrect. A quick study of the Life of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alaihi Wasallam) shows us something different: • The Battle of Mut’ah was instigated by the Muslims against the Romans the Muslims were 3,000 faced against a Roman army of 200,000. • The Battle of Hunayn was inevitable shortly of the Muslims had conquered Makkah. • The Battle of Tabuk was also instigated to finally destroy the Romans. We see from the ijmaa (Consensus) of Sahaba [the companions of Muhammad], that they too instigated Jihad, through As-Sham, Iraq, Iran, Egypt and North Africa. Moreover, the status of Martyr in Islam is of the highest, so how can it be that Jihad is reduced to anything lower that that.

Another example comes from the Muslim Brotherhood theorist Sayyid Qutb, who ascribes the idea that jihad is only a struggle for self-defense to Western Orientalists! “This narrow meaning,” says Qutb, “is ascribed to it by those who are under the pressure of circumstances and are defeated by the wily attacks of the orientalists, who distort the concept of Islamic Jihaad.”

Qutb's views on offensive and defensive jihad are not innovative: he follows the Shafi’i school of Sunni jurisprudence, which mandates that “jihad had for its intent the waging of war on unbelievers for their disbelief and not merely when they entered into conflict with Islam” (See The Islamic Law of Nations: Shaybani’s Siyar, The Johns Hopkins Press, 1966, p. 58).

But what about the Qur’an’s command to Muslims not to “begin hostilities”? In his monumental, multi-volume commentary on the Qur’an, In the Shade of the Qur’an, Qutb explains Sura 2:190 (“begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors”) not as a command to Muslims to avoid attacking their opponents, but rather as a warning not to attack civilians "who pose no threat to Muslims": “‘Aggression,’” says Qutb, “implies attacks on non-combatants and peaceful, unarmed civilians who pose no threat to Muslims or to their community as a whole.” He pointedly avoids saying that this verse limits jihad to self-defense. In fact, according to Qutb the very nature of the call to Islam rules out the idea that jihad could only be for self-defense. “Since the objective of the message of Islam is a decisive declaration of man’s freedom, not merely on the philosophical plane but also in the actual conditions of life, it must employ Jihaad. It is immaterial whether the homeland of Islam — in the true Islamic sense, Dar ul-Islam — is in a condition of peace or whether it is threatened by its neighbors.”

Qutb speaks harshly of modernist and moderate Muslims who would recast jihad as a struggle for self-defense. Even while they “talk about Jihaad in Islam and quote Qur’anic verses,” he says, they “do not...understand the nature of the various stages through which this movement develops, or the relationship of the verses revealed at various occasions with each stage.” This leads to further errors: “Thus, when they speak about Jihaad, they speak clumsily and mix up the various stages, distorting the whole concept of Jihaad and deriving from the Qur’anic verses final principles and generalities for which there is no justification. This is because they regard every verse of the Qur’an as if it were the final principle of this religion.”

What does Qutb mean by the stages? In his jihad primer Milestones, Qutb quotes at length from the medieval scholar Ibn Qayyim (1292-1350), who, says Qutb, “has summed up the nature of Islamic Jihaad.” Ibn Qayyim outlines the stages of the Muhammad’s prophetic career: “For thirteen years after the beginning of his Messengership, he called people to God through preaching, without fighting or Jizyah, and was commanded to restrain himself and to practice patience and forbearance. Then he was commanded to migrate, and later permission was given to fight. Then he was commanded to fight those who fought him, and to restrain himself from those who did not make war with him. Later he was commanded to fight the polytheists until God’s religion was fully established.” Qutb summarizes the stages: “Thus, according to the explanation by Imam Ibn Qayyim, the Muslims were first restrained from fighting; then they were permitted to fight; then they were commanded to fight against the aggressors; and finally they were commanded to fight against all the polytheists.”

This view corresponds to that of Sheikh Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Humaid, who argues in "Jihad in the Qur'an and Sunnah" that

...at first "the fighting" was forbidden, then it was permitted and after that it was made obligatory- ( I ) against them who start "the fighting" against you (Muslims)... (2) and against all those who worship others along with Allah... as mentioned in Surah Al-Baqara (II), Al-Imran (III) and Tauba (IX)... and other Sarah (Chapters of the Qur'an). Allah (swt) made "the fighting' (Jihad) obligatory for the Muslims and gave importance to the subject-matter of Jihad in all the Sarah (Chapters of the Qur'an) which were revealed (at Al-Madina) as in Allah's Statement: "March forth whether you are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor), strive [hard with your wealth and your lives in the Cause of Allah. This is better for you if you but knew." (V.9:41). And He (Allah) said: "Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know." (V.2:216)

If the Muslims are not just fighting against those who fight the Muslims, then their warfare is not solely in self-defense. This is the view of jihadists today.

Are Qutb and Humaid and Ibn Qayyim (and many others) part of the "tiny minority of extremists"? Zafar Bangash, Director of the Institute of Contemporary Islamic Thought in London, calls Qutb “a man of impeccable Islamic credentials [who] made an immense contribution to Muslim political thought at a time when the Muslim world was still mesmerised by such western notions as nationalism, the nation-State and fathers of nations.” Qutb’s biographer claims that his subject is “the most famous personality of the Muslim world in the second half of the 20th century.”

How will you refute him? Why should Muslims believe Badawi and not Qutb, Humaid, or the rest? I eagerly await your explanation.

Also, the significance of the rapid expansion of the Islamic empire in the seventh century cannot be minimized: it illuminates what the earliest Muslims understood the Qur'an to be saying about what jihad really means and how it is to be practiced. In an astonishingly short period of time the Muslims conquered the Christian lands of North Africa and the Middle East, which were not threatening the Muslims in Arabia. These were aggressive wars started by the Muslims. If the Qur’an and the Prophet really taught that jihad is solely or primarily a spiritual struggle or one of self-defense, why did Muhammad’s own followers get it all so drastically wrong? How could such a titanic figure have failed so utterly to instruct his followers properly? It strains credulity to believe that the early Muslims completely misunderstood Muhammad's teachings about jihad, as central as these teachings were to early Islam.

To understand the Qur’an properly, one must consider its historical and textual context. Historical context: There are a few verses in the Qur’an which sanction fighting. These verses, however, when understood in their textual and historical context deal with specific war situations and must not be generalized to apply to peaceful co-existence. The description of the aggressors or oppressors as rejecters of faith or idolatrous people or People of the Book does not mean that they are to be fought against on account of being non-Muslims. Historically, these aggressors, happened to be non-Muslims. Combative Jihad when unavoidable is strictly regulated. Intentions must be pure and no selfish personal or nationalistic agenda should be the driving force. There must be a declaration of war by a legitimate authority after due consultation. No non-combatants should be hurt. All must refrain from looting and unnecessary destruction. Prisoners of war and the injured must be treated humanely.

I have answered much of this above. It doesn't seem from 9:29 that the People of the Book who must be fought just "happened to be non-Muslims." Muslims are instructed in that verse to fight them precisely because they are non-Muslims: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Moreover, the example of Muhammad militates against your interpretation, Dr. Badawi. Aucbur gives some examples above; there are many others. For example, why did Muhammad go to fight the Byzantines at Tabuk? “Ibn Shihab reported that Allah’s Messenger made an expedition to Tabuk and he (the Holy Prophet) had in his mind (the idea of threatening the) Christians of Arabia in Syria and those of Rome” (Sahih Muslim, book 37, no. 6670). Why did he want to threaten them? Had they threatened him or the Muslims? They had not. In making this act of aggression the Prophet was in line with the great Qur'anic commentator Ibn Kathir’s gloss on Sura 9:5’s "slay them wherever you find them": “Do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam.” (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, vol. 4, p. 376).

That sounds like a religious war to me: "die or embrace Islam." No mention of a "peaceful coexistence" option. How would you refute Ibn Kathir and other Muslims who make the same kind of argument?

Textual Context: The Qur’an prohibits compulsion in religion [2:256]. It teaches the Oneness of God, acceptance and respect of all prophets [2:285], broad human brotherhood [49:13], acceptance of plurality [5:48; 11:118], universal justice and fair dealing [4:134, 5:8]. It demands just, kind and respectful treatment of those who co-exist peacefully with Muslims [60:8-9]. Peaceful and respectful dialogue with the People of the Book and the emphasis on the common grounds with them is a repeated theme in the Qur’an [e.g. 3:64; 29:46, 5:5]. Those who erroneously claimed that all such definitive [Muhkam] verses has all been “abrogated” by what they called “the verse of the sword” were mistaken and failed to give any definitive evidence of their claims. They were refuted by both famous classical scholars like Al-Suyuti and Ibn Al-Jawzi as well as contemporary scholars like Subhi Al-Saleh and Abdullah Al-Judai` and many others. The concept of Naskh has been often misunderstood by some including Muslims too.

How would you respond to the specific argument that 2:256 ("there is no compulsion in religion"), made by an Islamic scholar here, has been abrogated?

Dr. Badawi, your argument against the doctrine of abrogation is not substantive; it's just a list of names. Please provide reasons why Muslims should not take seriously the idea, as put forth by a Muslim above, that 2:256 has been abrogated by 9:5 and other verses. Such an argument, if you can really construct one, would be considerably useful in fighting today’s jihadists.

Meanwhile, one of the names you mention, Al-Suyuti, seems to be on the other side of this argument. Tafsir Al-Jalalayn, which is the work of Al-Suyuti with Al-Mahalli, explains why Surat At-Tauba (sura 9) does not begin with the customary invocation Bismallah Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim, "In the Name of Allah, the compassionate, the merciful": the invocation, it says, “is security, and [Sura 9] was sent down when security was removed by the sword.” Another early commentator, Ibn Juzayy (d. 1340) agrees that one of this verse’s functions is “abrogating every peace treaty in the Qur’an.”

Conclusion: Not a single verse mentioned in your communication or elsewhere in the Qur’an, when understood in its textual and historical context sanction fighting others on any ground other than aggression [actual or anticipated] or oppression. Should you require a verse-by-verse analysis, I will be glad to provide it as soon as I can, given my very busy schedule and frequent travels. It is about time that we all work toward peace, brotherhood, justice, real long-term security and peaceful co-existence, not withstanding theological and political differences. Again Peace be with you

Who defines aggression or oppression? How would you refute, for example, Osama bin Laden’s arguments that the umma has already been suffering for quite some time from Western aggression and oppression, thus justifying 9/11?

As for a verse-by-verse analysis, please refute the Islamic scholars whose comments on various verses I quoted above. I myself make no claims or interpretations of Islam of my own; I merely report on what Muslims themselves say. I will be most interested to hear how you refute this material, since it appears that moderate and peaceful Muslims have as yet made little or no headway in refuting the interpretations of the Qur’an and Sunnah that people like Osama and others use to justify what they are doing. Such a refutation is urgently needed today -- if it can be made. But I have been studying Islam for over two decades and have yet to see it.

Finally, a word of clarification: I have been harshly criticized for not "supporting" the work of "moderates." But in fact if moderate Islamic arguments such as the one you put forth in this letter are not strong enough to withstand the inevitable questioning they will receive not from Westerners, but from Muslims who are inclined to jihad, they are essentially worthless, except as comfort for jittery non-Muslims -- but if Muslims can easily refute them then that comfort is essentially empty.

Please post. Thank you and my kindest regards.

Jamal Badawi
March 6, 2005

And my regards to you too. I look forward to your reply to this.

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Well, that takes care of that. Badawi himself is unimportant, merely the specific case of a generic problem -- the apologist who is relying on Infidel ignorance and Muslim sleight of word.

Now it is going to be a bit harder -- as long as Infidels have the wit to print this out, and read it over (yes, it will take a little time), and re-read it so that it all makes sense -- especially those "stages of Muslim growth" to borrow a donnish Rostovian phrase -- that Qutb and Ibn Qayyim offer:

"...the medieval scholar Ibn Qayyim (1292-1350), who, says Qutb, “has summed up the nature of Islamic Jihaad.” Ibn Qayyim outlines the stages of the Muhammad’s prophetic career: “For thirteen years after the beginning of his Messengership, he called people to God through preaching, without fighting or Jizyah, and was commanded to restrain himself and to practice patience and forbearance. Then he was commanded to migrate, and later permission was given to fight. Then he was commanded to fight those who fought him, and to restrain himself from those who did not make war with him. Later he was commanded to fight the polytheists until God’s religion was fully established.” Qutb summarizes the stages: “Thus, according to the explanation by Imam Ibn Qayyim, the Muslims were first restrained from fighting; then they were permitted to fight; then they were commanded to fight against the aggressors; and finally they were commanded to fight against all the polytheists.”

So it goes roughly like this:

Stage One: Infidels too strong. No Jihad, gentle Islam meek and mild, which is followed by

Stage Two: Jihad, but only against those who do not accept the message of Islam which is followed by:

Stage Three: Jihad against everyone who is an Unbeliever, period.

Jihad against everyone.

Even if technical reasons prevent us from minding our P's in the Muslim text (for the sound is non-existent in Arabic), at least we can make sure to doubly mind our relevant Q's.

To wit:

Qutb, Qayyim (e tutti quanti) and the quality of Mr. Badawi's mind, as revealed here by Robert Spencer, who offers us, meticulously, the relevant quis, and the quam, and the quibus auxiliis.

"It (Islam) demands just, kind and respectful treatment of those who co-exist peacefully with Muslims" [60:8-9]

The Dawood translation puts it a little differently:

"God does not forbid you to be kind and equitable to those who have neither made war on your religion nor driven you from your homes. God loves the equitable. But He forbids you to make friends with those who have fought against you on account of your religion and driven you from your homes or abetted others so to do. Those that make friends with them are wrongdoers."

'Allowing' kind and equitable treatment to non-Muslims is not a 'demand' for kind respectful treatment. The latter kind of rhetoric is utterly inconsistent with the tone and texture of hundreds of passages characterizing non-believers and what how they should be treated, and, of course, the brutal ways Allah treats non-Muslims are among the worst. And note how this 'allowance', briefly expressed in two sentences, one non-specific, for kind equitable treatment is placed in the text, right next to an extended passage on repeated warnings about making friends with 'wrongdoers' and how to sniff out a 'believing woman' from a 'non-believing woman'. The recurrent themes in the text are not 'peace', 'respect', 'kindness' toward all humankind, but 'suspicion', 'obsession with distinguishing between those who believe and those who don't', and 'distinct modes of behavior toward believers and non-believers'. The emphasis in this text and hundreds more is on the schism in the world, the schism between Islam, surrender to Allah and the teaching of the prophet and all the rest. That is the focal point of the text: 'us' and 'them'.

Non-believers incur the wrath of God, are morally corrupt, cannot be trusted, deserving of subjagation and, if the circumstances call for it, brutality, as Allah's examples makes perfectly clear, and the last sentence of this, the 60th sura emphasizes:

"Believers, do not make friends with those who have incurred the wrath of God. Such men despair of the life to come, just as the unbelievers despair of the buried dead."

Those who despair of the life to come and mourn their dead, the non-believers who incur the wrath of God, are not even worthy of friendship.

And the next sentence, the next thought, the rote phrase whose meaning expands with each example, each teaching, each direction of thought:

"In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful"

And what compassion and mercy might that be?

The concept of Naskh has been often misunderstood by some including Muslims too.
That is the root of the problem. It is because guys like Qutb and his present day minions like b. Laden and Zarkawi just don't get the concept of "religion of peace". And judging from the seemingly endless spew of belligerent fatwas emanating these days from fountainheads of Islamic "scholarship" like al-Azhar, it appears that the mainstream orthodox Muslims around the world also don't get it.

Hey, we're on board with this "religion of peace" idea. Now if guys like Badawi could just convince his billion-plus co-religionists that it's true, maybe we could live in peace. But as long as the reality of the scourge of jihad afflicts the world, the adherents of the ideology from which it springs can expect to be greeted in their streets by the United States Marine Corps, no better friends, no worse enemy. Perpetrate jihad against the non-Muslim world, experience a rain of steel in return. It really is that simple. We in the West really, really don't care what you believe. Don't try to foist your worldview on us with your violence and we'll let you live in peace. Continue to export your violence and we will continue to incinerate you. Can we spell it out any easier?

that was a load of taqiya. badawi isn't fooling anybody with his "islam is a religion of peace" crap. we've educated ourselves. we know by now what the qur'an and hadith say about us kafir. muslims should be deported ASAP back to the middle east, unless we want to end up like the suicidal dhimmi eurabians who will be wiped out demographically by the muslims who breed and multiply like rats and who use the eurabian taxpayer's welfare and who gang rape young white women. such a tragedy!

The man from Indiana said, "I'll believe it when I see it".
Radically brilliant Psychologist, Rollo May, when describing the psychological reality of things said, "I'll see it when I believe it."
Jamal Badawi says, in effect, that "The only authorities on Islam are Muslims."
Never mind that the Koran is most often repeated parrot-like by people who don't understand a word they are saying; they are only repeating fearfully coerced memorization. This is especially dangerous repetition because many Muslims are doubly burdened by illiteracy and incomprehension of the langaue of the Koran - Arabic.
All reality, whether practical or psychological, can only be enhanced by valuing and practicing objectivity. As far as I can see, this is a core and fatal flaw in Islam's system. There is no objective reality possible under the totalitarian guidelines of Islam.
There can be no reliable way to see oneself or the true effects of oneself (or culture) on others without objectivity. All objective/subjective reality is projected onto an unreasoning, unpredictable Allah. There is no self. There is no other. Dangerous stuff. Very dangerous.

Too bad this apologist/deceiver/islamist/accuser/spin-doctor Jamal Badawi can't put as much effort into acknowledging and preventing Islamic Terror/violence/threat/brainwashing worldwide as he does effort into the propaganda game that Islam is not destructive. Just a "small" "minority" of extremists - NOT:

"Adherents of militant Islam account for some 15-20 percent of the Muslim world..."

www.meforum.org/article/168

Daisytoo,

Have you read any of the Hizb ut-Tahrir stuff?

"...when the reality contradicts with Islam, it is not allowed to interpret Islam so as to agree with reality, because this would be a distortion of Islam; instead the duty requires changing the reality so as to conform to Islam."

From "The Methodology of Hizb ut-Tahrir for Change" at: http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org/english/books/pdfs/method_for_revival.pdf

I like to call this document by Hizb ut-Tahrir "Mind Control through Though Reform"

How many hundreds of years of Islamic history are we being asked to ignore?

I actually do not care how any Muslim scholar (or Infidel apologist) chooses to interpret the Qur'an. Clearly, Robert knows as much as anyone, Muslim or not, about the history of Islam, the meaning of the Qur'an and the Hadith. His arguments fall on Muslim deaf ears, since Muslims want us to listen to what they say and ignore what they do, not matter how much evidence we bring up which is contrary to the message with which they wish to fool us.

Instead, keep your eyes on the Islam on the ground - what it has done and how it has behaved in the past, coupled with what it is doing now.

Let us assume for a moment that defensive war, meaning fighting for reasons of security for the umma, is the actual meaning of Jihad.

However, it is very easy for a Muslim to feel insecure just by the mere resistance of an Infidel population to the spread of Islam: if we say NO to disrupting the workplace for 'praying' five times per day, if we dare to ask the most basic questions about the character of Muhammad, if we demand that mosques not be used as institutional halls of hatred, if we demand that Muslims respect our secular law, if we demand that Muslims treat non-believers with respect, in other words, if we demand that Muslims NOT ACT LIKE MUSLIMS IN AN ISLAMIC LAND, then they can claim they are oppressed, and 'defensive Jihad' becomes operative.

I point you to one Ali Sina's latest articles about the Muslim mind and how even 'peaceful' Muslims deceive themselves when they protect the cult.

Ethelred

I'm not familiar w/Hibz ut-Tahrir, Fides. Thanks for the link. It's now included in my "to be read list"! I'll keep your observation in mind.

Fides, grabbed the time and so currently reading Tahrir. Amazing really, these lessons in compulsivity!
Tahrir decides on p.5 that ".. the society in Muslim lands is non-Islamic." Why? " .. there is a mixture of thoughts"
P.8. He talks about establishing a Khilafah (a group/action to guide the resumption of "Islamic life") Tahrir warns that "this should be undertaken collectively .. it is not ALLOWED to be an individual activity." Why? There is no individual.
The final paragraph on P. 8 should be required reading in our schools. This guy comes right out and defines the goals of Islam as political. No secrecy there ..
I'll keep reading .. I better appreciate your comment "Mind Control Through Reform" (which, by the way, works equally well in reverse, doesn't it?)

Ah .. forgot to mention Fides: Tahrir's piece could also be called
"Bringing the mountain to Mohammed".

Mr. Spencer
Sorry for your lose of your family member!!

And the money would have been nice but you should have known what kind of lies that were to come!!

I would have loved to see that Jump-suit with all the Jewels!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Sider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the Course to Victory to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat let not the World be Deceived by them Amen

"It (Islam) demands just, kind and respectful treatment of those who co-exist peacefully with Muslims" [60:8-9]

Well of *course* it does. Just ask Margaret Hassan.

Oops - never mind. We can't ask Margaret Hassan anything, now, can we?

Sorry about the Lear Jet, Mr. Spencer. I suppose the staff benefits will be cut now, am I right?
:D

"It (Islam) demands just, kind and respectful treatment of those who co-exist peacefully with Muslims" [60:8-9]

Well of *course* it does. Just ask Margaret Hassan.

Oops - never mind. We can't ask Margaret Hassan anything, now, can we?

Sorry about the Lear Jet, Mr. Spencer. I suppose the staff benefits will be cut now, am I right?

Uh oh.

Geoff don't like the sound of this.

Does this mean I'm out of the pool house?

It's ok - I hear OJ may have an opening in his organization. I can be his sidekick. I'll get to meet lots of pretty ladies as we search for the, ah, "real killer".

Geoff

Mr. Spencer,

It sounds like Jamal B. pulled the old linguistic bar bet trick on you! (Try it...)

On the date of the next Summer solstice, stroll into a tavern and wager the following with someone semi-sloshed and unsuspecting:

"I'll bet you $20 that today is NOT the longest day of the year."

When they insist that it IS, you throw down a twenty and tell them to match it. When they do, you pick it up and ask:

"How many hours are there in this day?"

And keep their twenty.

(Buying them a drink helps keep tempers down.)

"Changing the meaning of the words, mid-stream, and thereby 'winning' the argument" seems to be THE favorite Muslim debating gambit. Going back to the Sophists.

In Jamal's case, it isn't even that clever. He might as well have NOT lied, or deceived, and NOT set up the phony wager by simply saying:

"There are no such literal Arabic words as 'holy war' in the Koran."

But, without the cute $1,000,000 sleight-of-hand, what reporter would even bother talking to him?

However, any real journalist could have figured this scheme out with a few follow-up questions, then scrapped the story entirely, and gone to the nearest bar to win twenty bucks with something wittier than this tautological b.s.

I could, just as easily as Jamal, come up with an even wilder holy wager:

I will give a billion dollars to anyone who can find the word "Bible" in the Bible.

(Or any English word, for that matter.)

Why even bother talking to these chuckleheads?

It all becomes about as fruitful as discussing whether God can make a rock so heavy that even God can't pick it up.

(If God CAN, then God is NOT all powerful. If God CANNOT, then God is NOT all-powerful. Therefore: God is NOT all-powerful.)

Meanwhile, an Infinite Universe awaits our devoted human exploration, and the Muslims are playing supernatural shell-games with etymological piffle.

A pox on their Pax.

Badawi is an ardent practitioner of al-taqiyah (sanctioned deceit). On the Koranic imperative of male spousal battery, he tells Western audiences that it is only a permissive to be used as a last resort.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/Shax2/islam/end.html

Not on topic, but a bilingual blog where the nominal journal "Le Monde" - France's suicidal waste of time and space and resources - is scrutinized, offers insight into French anti-Americanism. Very informative.

http://lemondewatch.blogspot.com/

This all goes to prove that Jamal Badawi is either (a) disingenuous or (b) ignorant about what the religion he purports to believe or (c) unable to show how his hermeneutic allows reserving the jihad verses for situations other than the present one.

Still, Mr. Spencer, I'd love to see you collect.

The lemondewatch site, to which a link is given above, should be consulted. Le Monde has had a terrible effect on French perceptions of America, of Israel, and of Islam. Peroncel-Hugoz, the most thoughtful reporter/analyst Le Monde ever had on Islam, was taken off that beat as soon as he published "Le Radeau de Mahomet" (The Raft of Mohammed). He now does travel pieces about Portugal. Meanwhile, the detestable Eric Rouleau, sweet singer of Arafat and of course Khomeini, dominated the Middle East reportage, pushed people of his ilk, and even left Le Monde to become a French diplomat, posted to places like Iran. He deserved, and still deserves, to be imprisoned as an enemy agent, one of the people who got France into the fix it is in, and what a nightmare fix it is.

Le Monde was the paper that Ionesco was referring to when, in a piece in "Encounter" several decades ago, he complained about the "paper that everyone reads" (i.e., Le Monde) and its coverage of the Middle East, and in particular its incessant references to "right-wing Christians" in Lebanon, when those Christians were often hardscrabble farmers, and who were being menaced and killed not because of any political views that may have been attributed to them, but solely because they were Christians.

Le Monde has had some good reporters; Michel Tatu was not always bad on the Soviet Union. On the Middle East, save for Peroncel-Hugoz, it might as well have been concocted by the Arab League Office of Propaganda. Le Figaro allows the truth to occasionally come out, especially on those days when Yvan Rioufol appears. As for Liberation, or any magazine or newspaper with which Jean Daniel or his equally appalling daughter have anything to do, avoid them like the Black Plague in 1348.

For the record, sura 60 comes up above as a text which demands respect for non-Muslims. Here is a link to an Islamic advice page where an Imam first uses sura 60 to justify divorce from a woman who wants to leave Islam, and then, advocates her execution in the event this loving couple lives in a Muslim Sharia state:

http://www.islam-qa.com/QA/5|Jurisprudence_and_Islamic_Rulings(Fiqh)/Al-Riddah_(apostasy)/His_wife_has_left_Islam.23102000.7328.shtml

Yes, indeed, sura 60 and the demand for respect and kindness for non-Muslims surely made a difference, didn't it?







Not Peace But A Sword by Robert SpencerDid Muhammad Exist? The Muslim Brotherhood in America, by Robert SpencerIslamophobia: Thoughtcrime of the Totalitarian FutureMuslim Persecution of Christians, by Robert Spencer Obama and IslamThe Ground Zero Mosque: Second Wave of the 9/11 Attacks
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