"Islamic law has been there since it was passed on from Allah to the Prophet Mohammed, it cannot be re-written now"

"God gave us guidelines on how marriage should be handled. Telling us how many women we should marry makes the bill ridiculous and infringes on our freedom of worship,

Infringes on your ability to enslave, beat, and otherwise oppress women you mean. Marrying more than one woman is considered an act of worship? And what is this "must ask the first wife" business? When hairy old 250 lb. Abdul asks his young first wife if he can bring in some strange I wonder what she'll say? No? I'm sure if she does she'll have to be "corrected" according to Allah's word if she does. Does that make beating your wife an act of worship too?

f.g.

"The domestic relations bill, first seen by parliament last year, also
includes proposals on the scrapping of bride-price, one of the requirements of a Muslim marriage...."

"Bride-price"? I guess marriage really is a form of slavery for women in Islam. A Muslim man must buy the woman.

Given that the numbers of men and women are roughly equal, polygamy arises in an environment of constant warfare where two things happen:

1) Large numbers of men die and

2) Large numbers of females belonging to a vanquished enemy are seized and enslaved by the victor.

Both of these conditions were present in 7th and 8th century Arabia (it is unclear when precisely the Ur-Qur'an jelled into its final version, or when, indeed, Islam as it is known today emerged; it may have been a century or so after the Islamic Version of such events.

But today, when large numbers of men do not die, and when one cannot simply seize the women of a vanquished enemy, polygamy in a Muslim society is a guarantee, if women are not "seized" from the Infidels, that while some men may have 2 or 3 or 4 wives, other men will have none -- which itself may trigger great frustration, unhappiness, and the kind of discontent that inevitably, among Muslims, leads to an even more fervent Islamic belief by way of recompense and consolation. And we know what that "fervent Islamic belief" means for Infidels -- nothing good.

Of course, to the extent that non-Muslim women can be kidnapped and enslaved (just as Moqtada al-Sadr told his followers should happen to Infidel women in Iraq), as happens in the southern Sudan, and Christian women (chiefly Chaldeans and Armenians) have been captured by Muslims in Ramadi, Basra, and elsewhere in Iraq, and Christian women seized during the war in East Timor, and are now seized in the Moluccas, the old story of replenishing the polygamous pool with Infidel women, properly enslaved, can continue. And of course Arabs and Muslims have been good at batting eyes and seducing ingenuous Western women, so pleased with the outward and visible (and very temporary, oh so temporary) signs of courtliness accompanied by the sexual frisson of "the Other" that gets such big play in our poor little impressionable psyches, and before you know it, you are married to someone who wants not you, but all that marriage to you can bring -- Western property (ah, those in-laws,, with that bank account! and that house!), a Green Card or similar permission to remain permanently in the West, and so on. Of course, once it is all a done deal, the mask can be ripped off, and the real Muslim attitude toward women be revealed -- and will be, unless the Muslim male in question manages somehow to think his way through to apostasy.

It happens, but rarely. For as Sir William Muir noted in his "Life of Mahomet" long ago, Islam has an uncanny hold over its followers, a kind of complete brainwashing that plays on so many facets of existence, provides such a complete explanation, including explaining away, in advance, any incipient signs of doubt, that it truly is far more akin to the most fanatical brainwashing of, say, North Koreans, or Nazis, than anything ordinary residents of the Western world can possibly understand.

Here is how Sir William Muir, that tireless scholar, well-versed in the languages of the East, summed up the evils of Islam (see pp. 534-535 of the abridged version of his "Life of Mahomet" -- which can be ordered on-line):

"Setting aside considerations of minor import, three radical evils flow from the faith [i.e., Islam] in all ages and in every country, and must continue to flow so long as the Coran is the standard of belief. FIRST: Polygamy, Divorce, and Slavery are maintained and perpetuated; striking at the root of public morals, poisoning domestic life, and idsorgnaising society. SECOND: freedom of thought and private judgment in religion are crushed and annihilated. The sword still is and must remain the inevitable penalty for the renunciation of Islam. Toleration is unknown.
THIRD: a barrier has been interposed against the reception of Christianity. They labour under a miserable delusion who suppose that Mahometanism paves the way for a purer faith. No system could have been devised with more consummate skill for shutting out the nations over which it has sway from the light of truth."

His conclusion was that "the sword of Mahomet, and the Coran, are themost stubborn enemies of Civilisation, Liberty, and Truth, which the world has yet known."

In the meantime, people prate of "democracy" and what it will mean. It will mean exactly nothing, but will continue to drain resources, and Bin Laden and everyone who supports not only him but the millions like him, are perfectly aware that the goal now is to inflict as much economic damagte (i.e., expense) on the Infidel world as possible, to continue with the islamization of Europe, and to spread the message to Latin America (by appealing to anti-Americanism, a pre-existing mental condition, a tactic which has over the past few decades been so successfully employed in Western Europe, with the hideous results we all see).

This country is suffering from an intelligence failure at all levels: in the press, in the radio and television, in ordinary citizens, in those whose duty it is to learn about Islam and to instruct us, without fear of offending, and without letting assumptions and automatic respect about something called a "religion" or a "great religion," or naive hopes of a transformation that has not occurred in 1350 years of trying, in the menace of Islam.

I suppose it is a good thing that the polygamy thing is not reciprocal in islam. I couldn't imagine having 4 hairy muslim barbarian beasts to look after, and ummm... do the deed with. Yick.

To all: bang on the nosie - and I ain't talking about discipling unruly wives here. Some of the talking points of these protestors are too bizarre to be believed (if I didn't already know better):

"Islamic law has been there since it was passed on from Allah to the Prophet Mohammed, it cannot be re-written now."

That's right - once you're a slave, you stay one. No theological Abe Lincoln for YOU. If there were a theological Abe Lincoln for islam, I wonder who it would be...hmmmm. Know what? Even a secularist like me can figure that sucker out, and it makes me wonder at my choice of beliefs, or lack thereof.

"Other cultures want to overcome Islam, but we will not allow it. People are willing to die so that no one will trample over them."

Kill, he means. Some muslims are willing to make OTHER people die (including women) so that no woman will have any say in her fate. Important distinction there. And why if women want maybe, I don't know, a pittance of rights ('please, sir, can I not have some more co-wives?') does it become the 'fault' of 'other cultures'? Does that mean that women have more rights in those other cultures? (Islamic answer: 'No. Islam is the best culture for the liberation of women, if I knew what that was. Now I must kill you for asking your filthy question. And Allah knows best.')

Why, those filthy egalitarian 'other cultures'. I'll tell ya what, Buk old chum. You're saying 'other cultures', but I think we know you ya mean. Just say it: 'the West'. Or: 'the Jews'. It's all good. We getcha.

"God gave us guidelines on how marriage should be handled. Telling us how many women we should marry makes the bill ridiculous and infringes on our freedom of worship."

Freedom of worship? Well, that's just swell. So then this here freedom means 'women have no rights, and ain't a-gonna, Tex, till the cows come home. They don't git ta say how many wives we can have, nor no say in who we marry. That's God's way. And there is no compulsion in islam.' Nothing there about women's freedom to worship Allah by not allowing hubby to get some strange. Ah well. Allah knows best.

The bill doesn't say anything about how many women the average muslim man should oppress, just that the first wife gets a say in WHO he gets to oppress. That's all. So this guy is way out to lunch.

Then again, having a protest march against women's rights, even the tiniest, teensy-weensiest rights, would seem to me to be even further out. But, Allah knows best, I guess.

Geoff

PS: 'Allah knows best'. What a ringing catch-phrase for the new fascism of the 21st century. Much better than 'Arbeit macht frei'.

"'Allah knows best'. What a ringing catch-phrase for the new fascism of the 21st century. Much better than 'Arbeit macht frei'."

--from a posting above.

And as the use of such phrases go, they have much in common.

If Islam's sole fault was that it believed in the unchangeability of its holy books, I would not support and encourage a site like this.

Some skullcapped, bearded friends of mine tell me Jewish law can't be changed, either--even to the point that the Talmudic "changes" were really passed on from God to Moses to the elders of Israel orally.

The Bible cannot be changed; the Sutta Pali cannot be changed; the Vedas and Upanishads cannot be changed; the Si Shu Wu Jing and Dao De Jing cannot be changed; the Avesta cannot be changed; and the Granth cannot be changed.

Indeed, Dickens' _Oliver Twist_ and Twain' _Huckleberry Finn_ cannot be changed.

And, Hugh, while Islam has traditionally had a strong hold on its adherents, I'm frankly surprised at what is happening even now. Perhaps a lot of the radical Islamicism we're seeing today is a reaction to a period in which many originally Muslim people have come to discover and appreciate alternatives to what they once believed. And since the news is from Uganda, there's been a small but nticeable movement of Muslims to Christianity in that country.

"when reformers seek to set aside practices such as polygamy, hardliners see it as a transgression of Allah's will"

And it seems it's the hardliners who call the shots and who get their way. They're perfectly willing to use intimidation and threats, even murder. And I think the hardliners are the vast majority.

It looks like islam is winning everywhere in the West,not because they are smarter or more educated(which they`re not) but because they have the stronger will power,discipline and patience.
We westerners look for instant gratification,while muslims are ready to wait us out ,even if it`ll take hundreds of years and the sacrifice of a few generations.
For every minor victory of ours,they score hundreds of significant wins,and for every step that we take forward,they take ten and then they push us back a few...
In the end it will be decided by an allout war and one side will have to totaly anyhilate the other in order to be able to survive.

The more wives a man marries, the more children he can breed. If a man has four wives and they each give birth to several children, one man could easily have twenty children.

I'm sure that Muslims continue to practice polygamy under the nose of western authorities - every time I see a young Muslim woman, she is pregnant and has one or two toddlers.

Re getting permission of the first wife - Keysar Trad, who is a leading light in the islamic community in Sydney, (and a fan of bin Laden's) is open about his wish for a second wife. He has been publically nagging her to agree to it, but so far she has not. Poor miserable woman, talk about kissing the chains that bind her!

I agree with Adela that there will one day be all-out war between us and Islam - there simply isnt enough room on the earth to coexist with people who blindly follow a religion that tells them that slavery and the mistreatment of women is the natural state of things.

I posted a link to this article about polygamy
a few weeks ago and here it is again:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1100405845035&apage=1

It explains a lot about the necessity for jihad.

I posted a link to this article about polygamy
a few weeks ago and here it is again:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1100405845035&apage=1

It explains a lot about the necessity for jihad.

Very interesting article, Silvester. Worth the registration. Polygamy basically guarantees barbarity and abuse of women. Totally out of place in modern, urban society. But you can't seem to get that through people who insist on living like 7th century desert herdsmen. Wake up Islam! This isn't the 7th Century. This isn't the desert. But then, they probably understand the problems polygamy causes - hordes of violent unmarried men with no chance of marrying because the rich guys get them all. These hordes of violent men will seek to vent their anger on somebody. And that somebody is us. The infidel. So the Muslim doesn't care about the problems polygamy causes. To the Muslim, it is not a problem. It's to their advantage.

Ah, DianaC, you're obviously referring to that vomit-inducing article about Trad and his "mid-life crisis" that caused him to quit his good paying job and just sit at home, on welfare, and procreate for Allah. Yes, he was mulling over another wife. His first one, worn out with 8, or is it 9?, kids, seemed distressed but also wasn't going to put much effort into kicking up much of a fuss if he did. His putrid arrogance made me want to hit or break something, like it was his perfect right to take another wife. And of course, it would be on our tab. Like the first batch of mini-Trads are. No worries, stupid Aussie will pay for us to outbreed them. Grrrrrrrrr.

feralee-

"Be fruitful and multiply" is the oldest directive for -and method of- world conquest. Which is why women must be kept at second-class status in those 'faiths' which subscribe to it.

If they ever realized they were only a kind of biological fetus cannon for the patriarchal potentates, they might start questioning the dogmas that hold them in womb-bondage, and begin to force reforms upon the Bronze Age thinking of their creed. And educate themselves beyond the plane geometry of diaper-folding and scripturally-proper ways of bowing to their masculine masters.

Women in Islam are the only hope. The guys love being able to kick the girls at the command of Allah. Only the ladies will be able to civilize the beast.

Or it will join the dusty ranks of Baal, Quetzecoatl and Odin. Another bloodthirsty historical curio.

Women of Islam, arise!

Tame your tumescent guys!