Many people from across the political spectrum have criticized me harshly in recent days for not apologizing or admitting I was wrong for my reporting on the Armanious murders. Numerous Internet Torquemadas are firing up their torches, demanding I recant. Some have resorted to the time-honored smear tactic of quoting comments at Jihad Watch as if I wrote them.
Much of this, of course, is politically motivated: Lefties in bed with the global jihad, or at least unwilling to resist it, have seized on this as a new stick with which to beat Jihad Watch.
I will not apologize because there is nothing to apologize for: I was not wrong. I said that Copts had contacted me and given me information about the killings, and that that information was being investigated. I reminded readers on several occasions that I did not know whether or not these allegations were true, and I never asserted that they were. I waited a considerable time after receiving this information before posting anything about it, and only did after some details were confirmed by a reporter.
Some are accusing me of being disappointed that the killers are apparently not Muslim, or clinging desperately to the "hope" that they were Muslim after all. These are despicable charges, and not worth dignifying; the arrests are a relief, and I am glad that this was apparently not a jihadist killing on American soil. Still, we should not deceive ourselves into thinking that therefore such killings cannot happen, or forget that there have already been such killings: Rashad Khalifa and Mohammed Ali Alayed come to mind. Some questions about this case remain, as I have outlined here. I am confident that there will be entirely reasonable explanations forthcoming, but they haven’t yet.
My information came not from third-hand rumors, but from people who asserted that they were privy to plans to kill the Armanious family. Perhaps this information was complete fantasy on their part; perhaps it is an unfortunate coincidence -- a case of people talking big and doing nothing. The information I received about these plans seemed to coincide with what was reported about Hossam Armanious receiving a death threat on the Net; many have pointed out how common threats are in Internet discussions, but I would remind readers that around the same time we discovered posters at Barsomyat.com taking the further step of posting names, addresses and photos of Coptic Christians, along with hopes that Allah would grant them the privilege of allowing them to be the murderers of the people pictured.
Copts know all too well from their experience in Egypt that Muslims do indeed do carry out such threats -- and that is why these stories spread so quickly through the Coptic community in New Jersey.
I don’t know why these Copts passed on to me such detailed and apparently well substantiated information that turned out to be false. I am trying now to find out the full story. But in any case that is just how I reported it all here at Jihad Watch: as information from Coptic sources that may or may not be true. I called for it to be investigated, and as far as I know it was. Consequently there is simply nothing for which I should apologize.
Behind you 100%
200% !
Funny how the investigation of the murders of the judge's family has only had one focus... hate crime...only one focus. I haven't heard any detective speculate that it was a robbery gone wrong.
Wow, I've been away for bit and my pc died, am not aware of what happened other than what I just read and I have to stick with spencer on this.
To publicly state you're views will always leave you vulnerable to those reluctant to make a guess, no they wait for the outcome so they may stand up and shout they knew it all along, they have no true backbone.
I don't know what people can be complaining about, but then again there are a million little blogs out there. No doubt they were delighted with their self-important denunciations.
I didn't know infallibility was a precondition of blogging- or are you running for Pope? It certainly is not necessary for journalism. I have been in the paper twice. Once was a car accident, once was as a survivor in an obituary. In BOTH cases, the newspaper got important facts wrong. This was in stories of no more than a few paragraphs.
Look at what the press said about the Beltway Sniper before he was found. He was no doubt a
single (nope), white (nope),male (Yes!),in his 20s (nope), a loner (no, he had a partner),in a white (no again) van (again, no).
Oh, and I am still waiting for our troops to be bogged down in that brutal Afghan winter.
appreciate your website and the valuable information you provide. Thank you for your courage.
Hang in there Robert. Though technically you haven't done anything to apologize for, it isn't a surprise that your detractors would be jumping at the chance to try and discredit you. I suggest you take a page from history:
After the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995, Steven Emerson publicly suggested that Islamic terrorists were responsible for the tragedy. He was proven wrong, was discredited and for awhile, he was personna non grata to the MSM and even law enforcement agencies. But all that changed after 9-11, and his 'Investigative Project' has since been an invaluable tool for the FBI and others in tracking Islamic extremists in America.
Robert, justifiably or not, your credibility has taken a bit of a hit. But don't let it deter you. Time and events will vindicate your overall message.
Amen, Trudge.
Your credibility has only declined among people who never liked you or your message to begin with. They are looking for any dirt to smear your reputation. It shows their desperation (and underhandedness) that they resort to using quotes from your site, written by others.
Keep up the excellent work. This site is a beacon for free speech and intellectual endeavor.
No need to apologize. This case isn't over with yet. Not only that, but this site and others like get it right a hell of alot more often than they get it wrong.
I don't thik Spencer's credibility has taken a hit except among people who were already disposed to play dhimmi. Steve Emerson's suggestion that Oklahoma City looked like the work of Islamic terrorists is a far cry from reporting on what the Copts were saying- I mean, the first any of us heard of these murders was when the Copts and Muslims brawled at the funeral.
So how is Spencer responisble for the story? He came in after, and seems to have had a good pipeline into the community, but the suspicions were out there.
Although I see my credibility taking a hit as I forgot to hit preview on the last post!:)
I trust my meaning is clear anyhow!
Behind you 100%, Mr. Spencer, and thank you for providing the information that you gather from so many sources.
No apologies warranted in this case.
It's a little disheartening that some conservative Christians are 1) so ready to jump on you, and 2) so unable to see that radical Islam is a serious threat to non-Muslims, moderate Muslims, and female Muslims, both here and abroad.
P.S. I do wish the juvenile, hateful comments were edited out. They definitely do not help, and I think that quite a bit (though not all) of the criticism of Jihadwatch comes from the comments.
Kelley:
"I do wish the juvenile, hateful comments were edited out."
Me too. I do it when I see them. But I have neither the time nor the resources to monitor comments at this time. If things change in terms of funding, I'll certainly hire a moderator for the comments section.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
I, too, can be counted as standing 100% in support of Mr. Spencer. Indeed, it would have been irresponsible to hold back any information from the authorities.
That said, we need to wait for the investigation to close (not closed yet - as reports indicate that Defazio awaits results of forensic evidence) and convictions to be obtained.
Interestingly, McDonald asked to be put in protective custody
Mr.Spencer has nothing to apologize for. I am still extremely dubious about the investigation. But even if that was not the case, there could still be no shame attached to taking a public stance about a mysterious murder. We now know that Nicola Sacco, if not Bartolomeo Vanzetti, was certainly guilty of the murder he had been charged with; is that any reason to assault those who, in perfect good faith and with good arguments, attacked that trial? And what about the Lockerbie bomb, where many of us (at least in Britain) are still convinced that the wrong Arab tyrant has been fingered - for political reasons? Public scrutiny of police and judiciary are desperately needed in a democracy, and guess what? This is what they look like.
Robert
The Fat Lady ain't singing Yet??
Just hard to belive there are no connections? Durgs [Mulsums]Goes up stairs after with no regreat after Cutting up a child [mulsums] was in prison and worked with the mulsums like I said the Fat Lady ain't singing yet??
WILL THE COPS LET US KNOW IF mulsums ARE THE CAUSE NO THEY WON'T!!
THERE IS NO REASON FOR SORRYS HERE!!!
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nypost/20050305/lo_nypost/family39sfatalvision
Monica Armanious, 9, bravely struggled out of the duct-tape bonds that the two thieves wrapped around her wrists and eyes in the Jan. 14 robbery.
But before she could make it to freedom, she saw accused attacker Edward McDonald, a 25-year-old father of two who rented the family's upstairs apartment, law-enforcement sources said.
He and his alleged accomplice, Hamilton Sanchez — a 31-year-old convicted drug importer — decided that little Monica, dad Hossam, 47, mom Amal Garas, 37, and sister Sylvia, 15, all had to be eliminated, prosecutors said.
Then, in a stunning act of callousness, McDonald went back to his upstairs apartment and spent the next three days living there with his own child and his girlfriend while his alleged victims' bodies slowly rotted in the home below.
"It was a robbery gone horribly wrong," Hudson County Prosecutor Edward DeFazio said yesterday. "It was a very scary situation. It was a crime of opportunity."
REMEMBER THEY WAITED FOR THE FATHER TO KILL ALL 4 WHY?? DID THE MOTHER NOT KNOW THE PIN # NO THIS WAS A HIT MAYBE THESE GUYS OWED LOTS OF MONEY TO MULSUMS FOR THEIR DRUGS AND THIS WAS A HIT TO SAVE THEIR OWN LIFES???
NO THE FAT LADY AIN'T SINGING YET!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the Courae to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Amen
Mr Spencer stood up and spoke bravely and according to the direction of his conscience. That is the best any of us can do.
Mr. Spencer:
Absolutely no need to apologize for reporting the facts of this story....investigation is not yet complete.
Have the experiences of Steve Emerson, Jayna Davis, and the Beltway Sniper story, etc.,taught us nothing?
The obvious was all too easily overlooked and avoided right from the get-go on this case.
I am curious as to why....
I'll wait until all prison connections and details are thoroughly explored on this one.
I'm still not convinced thatb the murders of the Armanious family was just a robbery gone wrong. The first question that arises is if any of the suspect is muslim, and if so, were they in prison at any time in the recent past.
Then there is the other matter of future such murders. If these murders are not investigated rigorously, it will give islamists an ideal method to murder who they like, so long as they can make it look like a robbery gone wrong. To the jihadis it does not matter if they are caught, as they believe they will go to paradise anyway for killing an infidel. What is important to them is that islam and the umma is not harmed in any way. Recall that muslims around the world were telling us that 9/11 is NOT islam, while all the time proud that muslims did it. Muslims wanted both - credit for 9/11 as well as No blame for 9/11.
If these murders are really jihad related but get let off as a robbery gone wrong, the jihadis will have gained an important tactic to kill infidels without any harm to islam or the umma.
Mr Spencer, I feel that you should continue to investigate this matter. There is something decidedly fishy about it.
I'm not convinced Muslims weren't behind it in some way. Rather than speculate, I'll just wait and see.
If Muslims didn't kill critics like we swat mosquitos in Florida, I'd be less suspicious. That's one thing Muslims are almost incapable of, introspection. They should ask theselves, "Why do they hate us?"
Heh.
There is a major problem that now confronts us. Islamists may feel that they can kill any one who dares criticise the koran and make it look like a robbery. It doesnt even have to look like a real robbery, for they can rely on the authorities to to help them in that, just to avoid a breach of the civil peace. Mind you, I can understand that last desire. No public authority desires a major breakdown of law and order.
Backin' you 100% Robert!
This just doesn't pass the sniff test yet. It's way too early in the process for anyone to conclude anything with certainty, and as you've stated so well, there's nothing wrong with legitimate inquiry.
Let's wait for discovery, testimony and cross examination, not to mention to see what inquisitive journalists and bloggers turn up.
I'm sure we haven't heard the last on this story yet.
I don't recall you claiming that it HAD to be Muslims that did this. The fact is that the case has the Muslim M.O. written all over it.
Mr. Spencer, I would suggest that if you haven't already done so, you contact the police investigating the matter and give them the transmissions you received from those that made all the claims.
This could very likely shake out to be case of Muslim retribution. The guys involved could have been hired for the hit. Hopefully the DA will scare the truth out of them.
Another entirely plausible situation is that the losers accused of the crime were set up by jihadis. Think about it... if YOU were going to murder someone, an entire family, would you do it just downstairs? It seems unlikely. And why mutilate the bodies? And why not rob the house? Don't they know (doesn't everybody know?) that ATM machines have built-in cameras? What kind of common criminal does this to a family and doesn't rape the woman or teenage girl?
You don't owe an apology to anyone in this matter. It's not as if you were actually accusing any particular person of the crime. When a woman is raped, it is widely assumed that the suspect is a man. Likewise in this case, we had--and continue to have--every reason to believe that it was a ritual murder by Muslims on "uppity" dhimmi infidels.
********************************************
"Lefties in bed with the global jihad, or at least unwilling to resist it, have seized on this as a new stick with which to beat Jihad Watch."
How can you be so sure the politcal interests of the flamers? Isn't it likely that some of them are Muslims, most of whom are in fact conservative?
Keith,
You say: "How can you be so sure the politcal interests of the flamers? Isn't it likely that some of them are Muslims, most of whom are in fact conservative?"
In fact, no. At least I haven't seen any Muslim sites attacking me on this. The ones that have been referred to me are all left/liberal sites, as evidenced by their links to Kos, DU, etc.
Cordially,
Robert Spencer
You have nothing to explain. Keep up the good work and keep on watch!
This strikes me as a bit of a tempest in a teacup. Who are 'all these bloggers'? I've seen nothing of them.
I will say one other thing: there is at least one muslim site that hates Robert and DW/JW - or at least people therein. I think it would be wrong to construe that all the anger is coming from liberal westerners.
KJ's quite right - Robert didn't say that it WAS jihadists for certain, only that it seemed very much like it. And the position of the cops on this is boggling: apparently, motive, opportunity and intent now count for less than political correctness, order and 'religious tolerance' (as if tolerance would somehow have something to do with the prosecution of a crime).
That being said, I'd advise people on here to take a moment and calm down before posting things. If I may borrow from Christian theology: my eyes are not 'speckless' on this, but it does not help legitimate analysis. It's understandable: you're angry, even enraged at hearing about how religious minorities and women are treated under islam. The outrages of sharia, anti-Semitism, anti-Christianism (actually, anti-any other religionism) sentiments eminating from dar-al-islam are upsetting. Of course, it's also true that any comment at all can (and does) get deliberately used out of context by islamofacsists (been there, done that, bought the t-shirt).
I, in particular, will try to be more tolerant at the next round of events in the global humanitarian crisis islamofascism is causing.
Geoff
You did nothing more than follow the evidence as it came in, form a hypothesis, and ask for an inquiry. That’s what’s done in an investigation.
Let’s face it; some want to inculcate guilt to paralyze us in future cases. I refuse to be intimidated.
We’re behind you (look at all the comments above).
Stick to your guns, Robert. I don't believe we have gotten to the bottom of the Armanious case, yet.
The ritualized killing is too much for a garden variety criminal.
I too am relieved that it is less likely that Muslims did it. My family is giving me a hard enough time for what I write without such precedents.
I think you handled the matter responsibly, and reading the comments of your left-wing dhimmi detractors was an eye-opening experience for all of us.
Someone earlier recalled Steven Emerson's mistake with regards to the Oklahoma City bombing, and how this tragically discredited his groundbreaking documentary "Jihad in America." Fewer people recall that it was Steven Emerson who first exposed the pernicious influence of Saudi Arabia on U.S. policy in his overrated 1985 expose "The American House of Saud."
Imagine how many more lives would have been spared on 9/11 had we listened to Steven Emerson in 1985 and once again in 1995.
Never again must we allow our media to cave in to the dark forces that exploited one error in order to overshadow the most important investigative journalism of the post-Cold war era.
Correction!
"... his UNDERRATED 1985 expose "The American House of Saud."
You shared the information that was given to you by putatively credible people. You have no reason to apologise. These murders literally screamed Islamic ritual sacrifice/Islamic retribution and I still believe there is an Islamic connection to them.
Your critics probably know absolutely nothing about Islam and think that the information posted on this site comes from right-wing, neo-conservative bigots instead of straight from the horse's mouth (Islamic clergy), or Islamic canonical texts. Let's face it, the truth about Islam is a hard pill for anyone to swallow, especially naive, politically correct, multiculturalist social engineers.
It took me years to concede that Islam is devoid of spirituality; it has no anima, no soul, no substance. Allah is unknowable but capricious, deceitful, mendacious, cruel, vindictive. There is no love, compassion, mercy, beauty, or tolerance. What is in the Qur'an is bad enough, but what is not in it defines Islam. I arrived at these conclusions decades ago, long before there was a Jihadwatch on the internet.
Your clueless critics would be wise to address their ignorance on the subject of Islam, but I won't hold my breath.
Mr. Spencer was right on to raise questions - and CAIR has no shame. What are the facts here? An entire family of Coptic Christians are slaughtered according to Halal. Two dopey ex-cons living upstairs are caught using the ATM card of one of the victims. Nearly two months after the ex-cons used the ATM card, and after two months of scolding reporters for suggesting it may have been an Islamic ritual murder, the Prosecutor (deFazio) suddenly becomes sure that the ex-cons performed the slaughter.
As far as I know, no one has explored the obvious "third way" in this case - the possibility that the two stooges entered the crime scene after the killers left, found the ATM card, hacked it for the PIN number, and thought they could fly under the radar in getting away with a few thousand bucks. Sounds more likely these guys would try a stunt like this, then to think they were somehow inspired to perform a quadruple ritual murder for the valuables of a low-rent Jersey City tenement, or inspired by a jailhouse Islamic conversion.
Since Trudge brought up Steven Emerson, I can't help but note that in _American JIhad_, Emerson freely admitted her was wrong about the Oklahoma City bombings.
And while I do indeed think that the Jersey City authorities probably did a lot more investigating than the likes of us know, I'm not about to throw any bricks at Mr. Spencer. Further, let's just wait and see what else transpires. I'm especially curious to see what the McDonald and Sanchez defense team will make of any evidence that points away from their clients.
The jury is still out. We don't have the whole story.
The difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals will try to reason with rampaging monkeys while being torn limb from limb while conservatives know not to f*^k with a monkey...
The difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals will try to reason with rampaging monkeys while being torn limb from limb while conservatives know not to f*^k with a monkey...
Posted by: Kemaste at March 10, 2005 01:51 AM
Gold Star for you today!!
March 10, 2005
Canada is going to give heroin to addicts?? Seams they have not done their homework??
Commi Italian now says to German press that her life was never Threaten then WHY the Video saying her life was??? The commi Witch with a capital B should be strong up by the Italians for putting people in Danger!!
100 Children Poisoned in the Philippines??
A Well with a Fan?? ROTFL!!!
IKEA Being sued for sexual discrem. because all instruction manuals show only men? IKEA says it does not have women in the Manuals because they do not want to offend mulsums? CAN YOU SAY DIMMI!!! It’s just the little things!! This is how it starts next thing you know no more SHORT SKIRTS? SHORT SKIRTS WORTH FIGHTING FOR!!!!
30 pali gunmen go into an Abass Fawta meeting shooting in the air and breaking windows?? WOW OH MY!!
Police Chief and Bodyguards shot and killed was this paid for with that Italian ransom money??
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the Courae to Victory[FREEDOM] to Destroy ALL islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat give the World Courage to Stand Up and Fight Amen
Geoff~ perhaps we could say 'Mind-Bloggling'?
I know, it's early, but I tried...
Susanp:
Zman would hate you for what you wrote above! Don't you wanna be popular?
'I arrived at these conclusions decades ago, long before..."
Now you gave it away! I thought you are in your late twenties...(like me..)
Shalom!
Posted by: Terminator at March 10, 2005 06:48 AM
Some people are smarter than others and learn as children!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the Countries who have HEROS Amen
Pity the countries who need them[NOT]
About apologizing to critics . . .
DeFazia makes no apologies either
re Oklahoma City, I am still not sure there wasn't an Iraqi connection. Jayna Davis makes a pretty good case for their involvement.
The whole story stinks. It will indeed be interesting to see how the prosecution unfolds in court. It's possible that there's someone depraved and crazy enough to think he can steal a few thousand dollars and try to cover his guilt to make it look like a ritual murder by Muslims, but it is more likely that the accused were only accomplices to the murder.
Robert,
Remember when Galileo maintained that items of different weights, dropped from a height, would reach the ground at the same time, in marked distinction to prevailing belief?
OK, so when he dropped a couple of things from a height, there were a few inches separating them, and everybody criticized him, saying that his idea was totally wrong.
Nobody wanted to acknowledge that the error of the many feet of prevailing belief could not hide behind Galileo's few inches; Galileo would later be proven to be correct, and the few inches would be accounted for by physics not yet discovered.
You are completely correct virtually all of the time, and the initial evidence pointed to the possibility of an Islamic ritual murder. All of your many, many correct assessments cannot be hidden behind all your opposition's unremitting errors of knowledge and judgment.
You hang in there; this will fade into the oblivion that it deserves.
usanp:
Zman would hate you for what you wrote above! Don't you wanna be popular?
'I arrived at these conclusions decades ago, long before..."
Now you gave it away! I thought you are in your late twenties...(like me..)
Shalom!
Posted by: Terminator at March 10, 2005 06:48 AM
Terminator, I have never worried much about being popular. I guess I must be self-centered and self-absorbed because as long as I like myself, I am perfectly content. I've experienced a few episodes of self-loathing, but they were few and far between. Other than the muslims who peruse my comments here, I don't know of anyone who detests me.
I'm afraid my late twenties are ancient history but I'm still a long way from collecting social security. Twenty years comprise "decades" and I was but a mere infant when I discovered the revolting truth about Islam! I wanted to make it crystal clear that Mr. Spencer has not in any way been instrumental in engendering another islamophobe.
Zeroman is a typical muslim; he hates everything but Islam. Hatred is an inherent trait in muslims but it does not come naturally to me. It would be easy to hate them, but they aren't worth the emotional chaos that hate elicits. When this conflict is over, Islam will be forever changed. It might even die. Isn't that a titillating prospect?!