It is not impossible that there is jihadist sentiment among the Uighurs, although the Chicoms may be exaggerating it for their own purposes. From Arab News, with thanks to the Norwegian Kafir:
BEIJING, China is directing a crushing campaign of religious repression against Muslim Uighurs in the name of anti-separatism and counter-terrorism, a report by two US-based human rights groups said yesterday."At its most extreme, peaceful activists practicing their religion in ways that the party and government deem unacceptable are arrested, tortured, and at times executed," said the 114-page report by Human Rights Watch and Human Rights in China.
"The harshest punishments are saved for those accused of involvement in so-called separatist activity, which officials increasingly term 'terrorism' for domestic and external consumption."
The report, "Devastating Blows: Religious Repression of Uighurs in Xinjiang", is based on previously undisclosed Communist Party and government documents.
It also draws on local regulations, official newspaper accounts, and
interviews conducted in Xinjiang."Uighurs are seen by Beijing as an ethno-nationalist threat to the Chinese state," said Sharon Hom, executive director of Human Rights in China.
"As Islam is perceived as underpinning Uighur ethnic identity, China has taken draconian steps to smother Islam as a means of subordinating Uighur nationalist sentiment."
The report claims to unveil for the first time "the complex architecture of law, regulation, and policy in Xinjiang that denies Uighurs religious freedom, and by extension freedom of association, assembly, and expression".
"Chinese policy and law enforcement stifle religious activity and thought even in school and at home," it said....
"The worldwide campaign against terrorism has given Beijing the perfect excuse to crack down harder than ever in Xinjiang," said Brad Adams, Asia director for Human Rights Watch.
"Other Chinese enjoy a growing freedom to worship, but the Uighurs, like the Tibetans, find that their religion is being used as a tool of control."
The report said half of the inmates in Xinjiang labor camps have been jailed without trial or judicial review, for allegedly engaging in separatist activities.
At a more mundane level, Uighurs face strict prohibition on celebrating religious holidays, studying religious texts or showing their religion at state institutions including schools.
Uighur government officials or workers in state institutions or state-owned enterprises are even prohibited from growing beards, a long-held Muslim tradition, it said.
The Chinese government also vets those who can be Islamic clerics.
The rights groups called on the international community to press China to repeal the regulations and end policies and practices of discrimination against Uighurs.
China rebutted the accusations yesterday, and insisted separatists colluded with international terrorists.
"I want to point out that all tribes in Xinjiang enjoy all the civil rights under the constitution, including religious freedom," Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang said.
"East Turkestan forces colluded with international terrorist groups inside and outside China to create large quantities of terrorist acts, threatening the peace and stability of China and the region."
So what's the problem again?
Such reporting may indicate that many Muslims are no longer seeing China as a possible anti-American ally; and may be noting the "strong horse" in SW Asia. During the heyday of Arab and South Asian anti-Americanism, Chinese Communist persecution of Muslims was almost never mentioned.
Further, when I was in Mainland China in the early 1990's, it seemed many Uighur dissidents looked on America and other Western powers as possible allies.
I know that Uighur refugees were caught fighting alongside the Taliban in Afghanistan. But I am curious to know if they truly fought, or surrendered at the first opportunity. If the latter, I suspect I know why.
During World War II, the United States supplied the Soviet Union with equipment, and supported the Red Army to the hilt. It was right to do so. The main and immediate menace was Hitler. What was wrong was to fail, after World War II, to stop Stalin and the Red Army from entering Eastern and Central Europe, thereby guaranteeing the establishment of Communist dictatorships. That failure is akin to the failure of certain people who think of themselves as hard-headed and tough-minded because they had all the right ideas about the Communists -- but now seem unable to come to grips with the ideolgoy of Islam, and are not even trying to.
From here on out, the United States will have to frame its policies so as, always and everywhere, to weaken the strength, and appeal, of Islam. It may be that China is a future rival and threat. It may be that Chinese behavior in Tibet should be depored. It mayt be that the Uighurs have a case, but one would want to know more about the history of Jihads declared in Western China (there was a famous one in 1930, finally crushed), about the Turkic and Han adherents of Islam in China, and about the likely dangers from Islam in China, not so much to China alone, as to the outside world of Infidels. A decade ago, one might have regarded with outrage behavior that, knowing what we now know, we regard with indifference, or even, perhaps, with slightly abashed approval.
In a world war, all those who identify with, or might end up on the side of, the enemy, even where at present seemingly removed from that enemy (Are the Uighurs in touch with outside Muslims? Which ones? How?)have to be regarded as part of that enemy camp, even if their grievances were initially local, and seemingly limited to local issues. When what seems, at first blush, to be a nationalist struggle is conducted by Muslims, it may under the surface have its origins in something else. In any case, even if it is not a full-fledged Islam-based Jihad to throw off the Infidels, one has to treat it as such. The same is true of the current Chechen movement, which now seems to have moved beyond grievances against Russian rule, and would, if now successful, lead to attempts to put Muslims elsewhere in the Caucauss back into the pre-General Gorchakov condition of their existence. Given the decline in the Russian population, and the rise in the Muslim population within the borders of Russia, this is a danger. One must, coute que coute, support those who are menaced by, or think they are menaced by, any movement which, if it were to succeed, would inevitably hearten, and strengthen, Muslims -- and thus Jihadists -- everywhere.
Free Tibet, yes. But as for the Uighurs, with all that oil in Western China -- sorry, no.
Less China have its own problems, and maybe in the confusion Tibet might get free.
But the demographic invasion of Chinese communists into that Buddhist land makes this unlikely.
Let's worry MORE about those trapped under the communist yoke who would be allies of the West (and there are many), and less about the future Muslim jihadis in China. They sure wouldn't be helping us against the oppressors from Mecca, should they overwhelm Europe.
Human suffering should be protested, but send no arms or money.
It is a good tactic to use this to browbeat the tyrannical Chinese government, but will be of no benefit to freedom, no matter the outcome.
What to do when Hitler invaded Stalin was a little clearer. Stalin could delay the Nazis while the West re-armed.
We don't need that now. We got the arms.
But we do have to prevent Europe from selling them to China.
Maybe this 'opression of Muslims by China' (since they hate 'Islamophobia' so much in Europe) will be a handy tool to use in that EU bargaining about armaments?
We need to look at the big (and long) picture
The politics of this are surely complicated. Having said that, as a US citizen, I cannot be that sorry that two entities that both mean harm in one way or another to myself and my family, namely China and the Islamic world, seem to be on a collision course.
I am not moved by the plight of the Uighurs one bit. Even if China were a perfect example of freedom, the Uighurs would still be causing trouble for themselves.
'Islam is perceived as underpinning Uighur ethnic identity' - what that really means that islam is ideology that drives the agitation for muslim statehood wherever concentrations of muslims exist. It doesn't matter if the people are Uighurs, Chechens, or Thai-Malays, islam forces them all to agitate for the same thing.
The Uighurs need to learn to keep a low profile and mind their own business like their coreligionists in the Middle East have forced the indigenous Christian populations to do.
What's good for the goose is good for the Uighurs, a lesson that communist China will no doubt teach.
Unlike the Americans , Canadians and Europeans, the chinese do not adhere to any human rights, bill of rights, or due process.
If terrorism breaks out, u can say bye bye to islam in china.
I can't feel pleased about this - China can do what it likes with Jihadis, but I'm not happy about the idea of exectution and torture without trial of innocent people.
Perhaps if Muslims in the West knew about this they'd stop whingeing about Islamophobia. Perhaps pigs might fly.
The Chinese don't take sh*t from anybody... just ask the Pakistani "freedom fighters" and mujahideen fighting for the "freedom of Kashmir"... the pro-oil, for-profit MSM will NEVER remind you of this, but 10% of Kashmir is under Chinese occupation.
So while the cowardly mujahideen foray into the Indian part to murder civilians, kill women and children, and enjoy rapine and torture with reckless abandon, they NEVER, EVER go into the Chinese part of Kashmir.
Why? Because they are at heart chickensh*t cowards that don't really think that "God is on their side." They terrorize the peace-loving Hindus and Buddhists of India, just like they terrorize the Jews in Israel and the Christians in Sudan, Nigeria, and the Philippines: because they know that they can get away with it.
Now that Russia has gone flaccid, they are terrorizing them too. Just imagine if the Beslan Massacre had traspired under Brezhnev, Kruschev, or Stalin... there wouldn't be any Muslims left in Russia outside the work camps; you can bet on that.
So anyway, the jihadis target whoever is convenient: soldiers, children, schools, churches, hospitals, pilgrims, whatever. Then when the "others" strike back, OH THE HUMANITY!!
And around Kashmir, since the Pakis got the nuclear bomb recipe, the jihadis are striking with increased impunity. They know that they are dealing with civilized human beings (the Indians) so they don't have to worry about heavy-handed retribution.
They know that if they did go into Chinese Kashmir and make some mischief, the airstrikes would hit Karachi and Islamabad the NEXT DAY. The Chinese mean business. They Chinese are the new Texans regarding the old joke: "Don't ever buy toilet paper from Texas; it don't take sh*t from nobody. [sic]"
Well, since the embarassment-in-chief mangled the Hainan Spy Plane incident, we can't say that any more about Texas. Now it's China.
I think China will join us if a Muslim v. Infidel World War starts, but only if doing so will serve their interests more than siding with the Mobots. (All the more reason to work on alternative energy sources that will get the whole world of the need to placate the source of world terror: Saudi Arabia.)
And speaking of Kashmir, BOYCOTT ETHAN ALLEN FURNITURE. It has NOTHING to do with the original Ethan Allen. It is owned and managed by a Kashmiri Muslim that supports taking Kashmir away from India. Even if he doesn't channel money to the murderous jihadis, he definitely supports them "moral and spiritually" (just like Pakistan) and he is not getting one thin dime from me.
Do not patronize Ethan Allen and tell your friends to do the same.
'Islam is perceived as underpinning Uighur ethnic identity' - what that really means that islam is ideology that drives the agitation for muslim statehood wherever concentrations of muslims exist. It doesn't matter if the people are Uighurs, Chechens, or Thai-Malays, islam forces them all to agitate for the same thing.
Yer goddam right on that one, my friend. Even the tiny, tiny, Nation of Islam "movement" was agitating for the same damn thing as recently as 10 years ago.
It's always the same thing:
Step One: Invade and force conversion, or immigrate and preach conversion, to grow in numbers.
Step Two: Demand a separate homeland to fully implement Sharia.
Step Three: Step over the NEW border and procede to Step One.
The whole damn system falls apart when they reach a road block or otherwise hit an impass. Islam only works when it's expanding.
The only thing keeping it afloat today is trillions of dollars handed to the Saudis for their oil.
(No Gary, drilling the ANWAR won't make much of a difference. You have already admitted that it would only reduce our dependence by 10% for about 10 years, so don't even try that crap with me.)
I can only hope that someone, somewhere (in Israel preferably--ha ha!) is on the cusp of inventing a new technology that will supply energy cheaply and efficiently, and cut the murderous Saudis right out of the picture.
Let Islam return to it's rightful place in the sphere of world politics: side-by-side with the Snake Handlers of Appalachia.
I would be curious as to who directed the Human Right Watch to this issue. Did someone have a agenda? I don't see these human rights groups saying anything about the attacks on Christians, or Jews. So are they issue motivated or politically motivated.
Islam is not going to take on China for a long time. China would respond with force that would make the human rights groups scream and Islam would be dealt with more force than they could imagine. Kashmir is split into three regions; Pakistan, India, and China regions.
The Pakistan region is fine. This is one of the areas the terrorist stage from. They attack the India region......but they don't touch the China region....Why? Because they would have a ass-woopin.
PS Do drill in ANWR...even if it is only 10 years worth of oil and 10% of consumption, then it is a start. Maybe we can get the ball rolling here on our own soil afterthat and increase it. And if your not so focused on oil, then focus on MONEY....it would produce huge revenue for our federal and state coffers...and...it is less money in the hands of the Saudis to fund more mosques....at least for 10 years. Slow them down in anyway you can.
The 10 year forcast is produced by the liberal media to make the whole issue look small and irrelivant. The media said the same about the TransAlaskan Pipeline in the 70's. It has been flowing for over 27 years and outproduces Texas by 2 times.
And remember the liberal left has screamed for alternative energy for decades. The Pres Bush comes out 7 months ago and says we are going to start mining the moon for Helium 3. Clean emissions, and a payload full in the space shuttle could run the east coast for a year.
What did the liberals say?
How can you spend money on something like that when we don't have a cure for AIDs, our schools are underfunded, our roads need work. You must spend money on these things. Now China is in a space race to get to the moon and they want to start mining Helium 3. And like the Saudis.....who ever controls the energy.....controls the........(ramdom pick at your choice).
Yes, this is an interting one. Reminds me of our involvement in Kosovo to save the Balkan Muslims. I was for it at the time, mainly because it seemed like the right thing to do. And because "peace activists" and cretins like Noam Chomsky and Michael Moore opposed it (no, no knee-jerk anti-Americanism here) I was even more sure it was the right thing to do.
Since then, though, I've become somewhat bitter about the whole enterprise, mainly as a result of this very astute article by Lawrence Auster: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16266 .
As Auster says:
And so what I've learned is:
Thus when it comes to the Uighurs I think we should probably wait it out. The media will of course downplay the jihadist element involved in their conflict with the Chinese, just like they did in Bosnia (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alija_Izetbegovic). And I don't buy the notion that they'll becomed radicalized by the Islamists unless we help them. We helped the Balkan Muslims and what good did it do us? Almost none. The sad fact is you cannot treat most Muslims like human beings; their hatred of the outsider, their pathological need to dominate, ensures that any favor you do for them will be quickly forgotten, especially if it was a favor given to them out pity, since recalling this will be to great a "humiliation" for them too bear. I'm just wondering how many years before history books in Bosnia and Kosovo write NATO out of the picture entirely, and young Balkan Muslims are taught that it was the brave mujahiddin from Saudi Arabia and Iran that drove out the Serbs.
Regarding grand strategy, though, I think Hugh is wrong and that we should focus entirely on the Islamic world. With the caveat that peace and friendship with the Chinese is fully possible once they democratize, at present they are the biggest threat and focusing on Islam exclusively is already fighting yesterday's war. The Muslims are barbarians; they can only destroy and as long as they never get hold of nuclear weapons their potential for harm is limited. The Chinese in fact outnumber the world-wide Muslim population, and because they are economically productive, relatively educated, and under one state they pose much more of a threat. China right now is in the same place as 2nd Reich Germany, a rising power itching for a fight.
kj? You hit the nail right on the head with this one....
""""It's always the same thing:
Step One: Invade and force conversion, or immigrate and preach conversion, to grow in numbers.
Step Two: Demand a separate homeland to fully implement Sharia.
Step Three: Step over the NEW border and procede to Step One."""""
Don't forget about all of their complaints - along the way - about how they are being unfairly treated - proudly displayed by the media giants.
Is this whole thing not funny? [It's not - really ---- but
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
If God is laughing - then so am I!
One fact that many are not aware of:
The Vatican continually attacks China....because the Chinese leaders don't allow the Vatican leaders to have authority over the catholics in China.
China fully supports the Bible....but not the Vatican.
Vatican arch bishops are behind a lot of the complaints against China - through the mouths of the self-professing 'Rights' groups and media giants - who REFUSE to condemn the """Slaying of infidels"""
So what would they know?
Why listen?
Isn't it strange how so many nations have the exact same complaints against the same religion? Islam?
But isn't it stranger yet - that the the U.S. state department's '''''Human Rights'''' would attack China? and not the ''''separatists''''???
Article. III. Section. 3 of the United States constitution:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
Why is '''''Human Rights'''' defending this????.....
005.051 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors {authorities]: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them for friendship is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
009.030 The Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; in this they but imitate what
'''''the unbelievers'''''
of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them - how they are deluded away from the Truth!
047.004 Therefore, when ye meet
''''the Unbelievers''''
in fight [jihad] smite at their necks.
Behead them! - especially ALL those who believe in the Son of God [allah says so]
As long as the ''''Human Rights Dept'''' keeps defending those Islamic commands? why should "We The People" care about anything else they have to say?
If you're not falling off your chair hysterically? you didn't get it - the hypocrisy of it all.
Unlike the Americans , Canadians and Europeans, the chinese do not adhere to any human rights, bill of rights, or due process.
If terrorism breaks out, u can say bye bye to islam in china.
Posted by: Pegcity at April 14, 2005 12:06 PM
That would be One Down. . . Besides, I can't feel too bad about the Muslims' problems in China; given their interpretation of "human rights" and "due process," they are just getting what they give. It should all seem pretty normal to them.
I can't feel pleased about this - China can do what it likes with Jihadis, but I'm not happy about the idea of exectution and torture without trial of innocent people.
Perhaps if Muslims in the West knew about this they'd stop whingeing about Islamophobia. Perhaps pigs might fly.
Posted by: Interested at April 14, 2005 12:08 PM
Agreed, especially the part about "pigs might fly."
I think most of us aren't happy about the innocent being caught up with execution and torture, much as we weren't happy with the deaths of innocents on 9/11. But Islam is Islam, it says what it says, and until is has disappeared from the face of the planet, Islam will teach Muslims to kill innocents.
Of course, Muslims say there are no "innocent infidels," meaning that the 3000 or so killed on that day weren't innocent. In a very real sense, those who accept Islam on the basis of habit, not conviction, and might therefore be considered "innocent," are "collateral damage" in this war of ideas. So long as Islam insists that non-Muslims are fair game, it is an unfortunate fact that we will act to defend ourselves, and
Islam must go. It must be destroyed, either through such profound change that it is no longer recognizable, or simply gone, period. Then we have a crack at peace--not the Muslim kind, where everybody has been beaten into submission, but the real kind.
But then, what do Muslims know about reality?
So China's with us then?
Posted by: A.G.Frederick III at April 14, 2005 09:20 AM
Nah--the enemy who is the enemy of my enemy is still my enemy. Just let 'em "work it out." Whoever loses, the number of enemies is down by one.
Do not patronize Ethan Allen and tell your friends to do the same.
Posted by: kj at April 14, 2005 12:08 PM
. . .Do not patronize Ethan Allen and tell your friends to do the same.
Posted by: kj at April 14, 2005 12:08 PM
You bet! And isn't 7/11 owned by the Saudis? Someone, somewhere on JW a while ago, posted a bunch of businesses owned by the Muslims. I know I have it around here somewhere, but if the author of the list should happen to see this, could you post it again?
. . . I cannot be that sorry that two entities that both mean harm in one way or another to myself and my family, namely China and the Islamic world, seem to be on a collision course.
Posted by: maryrose at April 14, 2005 10:51 AM
Nicely said.
Sorry, folks, the American system of liberty under law scares Beijing every bit as much as it does Mecca. And how is Beijing using its leverage with Pyongyang to prevent nuclear proliferation? Not at all. Further, the Pakistani and Iranian nuclear programs have "Made in China" written all over them. China approved our intervention in the Islamic world only because it hoped we'd bleed but good--and then see how mum and worried is Auntie Tangshan when our casualties are low (in countries where everyone's armed, no less!) and we get away with sponsoring elections in Iraq and Afghanistan.
And if you're sympathetic to Tibet, there's already a de facto alliance between Tibetan Buddhist and Uighur Muslim dissidence in China and among refugee organizations. The fact that Muslim disturbances among the Hui in Qinghai in the early 90's steered clear of their Tibetan hereditary enemies as they sacked party hq can't rest well with Beijing: they know full well that there best European friend Ceaucescu fell when he could no longer play Eastern Orthodox Rumanians against their Magyar Reformed minority.
In any conflict were Muslims are fighting non Muslims, I always hope the latter will prevail. Chinese Communism has only been around for 50 or so years, there is a chance it could collapse like it did in the USSR. Islamic Jihads have been going on for 1300 years, they will not go away any time soon. Its obvious to me which is the biggest threat.
The Islamic threat is far far bigger than anything we've faced for several generations. At the height of the Cold War, the Soviets had the ability to wipe the West off the face of the map at the touch of a nuclear button. But they didnt, even when it got tense like during the Korean War or Cuban Missile Crisis. The Soviet regieme was harsh, even brutal, but the leaders of the Soviet Union came to know that any large scale attack on the West would also result in their destruction. They behaved with a degree of rationality, and didnt press the button.
Now look at Islam, every fundamentalist would dearly love to nuke the West, irrespective of the consequences for them. They wouldnt even hover over the nuke button with an itchy finger, they would press it at once. If Musharraf is deposed and Islamic nutters take over, I'd imagine they'd launch a Nuke within a month.
The Uighurs/Uyghurs of Chinese occupied East Turkestan are a distinct people with a written history of over 1500 years. They had an independent tribal amalgamation within the Great Turkut in the 6th century, later forming the Eastern Turkic Empire. They are not defined by Islam. They were Manicheans, Tengrists (monotheistic Shamanists) and Buddhists for 500 years before Islam became the dominant religion.
While Uyghur Muslims probably did participate in the enslavement of non-Muslim Steppe peoples, they did not try to conquer China. The reverse is not true, as Chinese Empires repeated tried to or temporarily did conquer East Turkestan.
I see no reason why the Uyghurs of East Turkestan are less deserving of nationhood than Tibetians, Manchus, Mongolians, or Taiwanese.
Unless you propose destroying Islam, it is hard not to come to terms with certain Muslim peoples and to reward moderate behavior.
The Uyghurs are far more deserving than the Palestinians.
The well of sympathy for any Muslim, is drying up quickly. To hell with all of them.
Beth: China isn't on the side of the Bible. It's on the lawbooks that someone who teaches it to someone under 18 can get ten years in prison. It's not always enforced because there are places where local officials figure they can safely turn a blind eye to unregistered Christian activities.
RonL.: The Uighur-American Association has gone on record to support Chinese Christian and secular dissidents, and the Tibetan Buddhists; although its membership is overwhelmingly Muslim. There's also a tale that an Uighur policeman in Turkey put in charge of a group of Chinese illegal migrants put in his charge because his superiors hoped he'd abuse them instead gave refugee relief organizations regular access to them, saw to it they were fed well, could keep clean, and were treated as well as possible for detainees because he saw them as fellow victims of the Communists.
I myself have been treated quite well when I blundered into a Hui (Sinophone Muslim) community in Chiang Mai, Thailand--and they knew I was an American Christian. Of course, when allowed freedom of religion, the focus of Hui patriotism tends to be on the countries of which they are citizens (Mainland China, Taiwan, Thailand).
No, Beijing deserves the religious dissidence it gets.
Beth~ One of my uncles is a Maryknoll Missionary in Hong Kong. He goes into China on a regular basis to certain areas- but they make it very difficult for him. Even then he manages to get to a few places on the sly once he is in country.
What is better, a possible new Kosovo and Bosnia with arabic jihadists supporting the uighurs, or giving all the support to the dictatorship chinese, difficult dilemma, very difficult, and now China is menacnig Japan with urban kale borroka.