This is what kissing the Qur'an will get you. Note that this Muslim doesn't in the least think of dhimmitude as a relic of history. From an Islamicity blogger, with thanks to Mary Beth:
...I am a recent convert to Islam from Roman Catholicism; the reasons for my conversion (or reversion, rather) were never due to a negative view of the Pope nor his religion. Pope John Paul II spoke highly of Muslims, and praised us for our piety and devotion (he used those words specifically, in fact). He kissed the Quran, and was the first Pope to visit a masjid. He spoke out against the American wars in Iraq (both times) and Afghanistan, spoke out against the Wall in Israel and the oppression that the Palestinians suffer. He avoided the perils of moral relativism and held strong to values that we as Muslims would agree with.For my own part, I remember when a Catholic priest I knew found out I took shahada; he didn't condemn it, but instead said that Catholicism and Islam were, in fact, very similar.
Innumerable Catholic and Orthodox martyrs to the sword of Islam might beg to differ with this priest.
I agree with him, and for this very reason I believe that it is imperative that we maintain an open and inclusive dialogue with the Roman Catholics. I believe that before the Last Day, many of them will, in fact join us, especially when they see just how similar we are and understand our differences (given an option, more than you might think would revert, in my opinion)for what they are.My brothers and sisters, let us pray for the Pope, though not a Muslim, he was a dhimmi, a person of the book and a very good one indeed. Let us pray that, Inshallah, the new Pope will carry on in his predecessor's footsteps, let us pray, Inshallah, that Allah Subhana Wa Ta Ala will lift the veil from the eyes of the Catholics and they will join us in worship of the one true God.
Now why would the Pope want to be a Muslim, when he was able to live his life as a Christian?
That'd be like settling for a hamburger, when you could have a steak.
Islam teaches that all humans really want to be Muslims but don't know or understand because of ignorance or misinformation. Obviously the Pope remained Christian because he was "ignorant and misinformed" as any sane human being would "revert" if given half a chance.
The Pope was walking the razor's edge when dealing with Islam. Fortunately not all of us are required to be so p.c.
This could be real, or it could be one of those fictional accounts designed to buck up the Muslim troops -- see, even Catholic priests are converting, everyone is converting, Victory Is Ours. Could be, of course. What is telling is the Islamic view that it so nicely encapsulates -- the misstatements about the Pope so breezily put in (he never denounced the Western Wall), the belief that in kissing the Qu'ran and following (ill-advisedly) the quasi-appeasement of Arabs in their Jihad against Israel, he necessarily was a full-fledged "dhimmi." He didn't see it that way, of course, though now one would suggest to the next Pope: kindly understand that any compromise with Islam is not reciprocated, but pocketed, and more is asked for, and much more expected. Kindly understand that the Catholic Church has a duty to promote and defend not only Catholics in the Islamic world, but all over -- and it cannot allow itself to be held hostage to threats against those people, but rather should use the full glare of world publicity to expose the mistreatment of Christians (and other non-Muslims) in the Muslim lands. And it should try to work against the Islamization of Europe.
The belief that any religion -- Islam -- is better than Unbelief, helped certain clergymen, such as W. Montgomery Watt -- to produce apologetic works. This belief is false. The atheist in the West shares far more with the Christian or Jewish Believer in that West than any of them does with Islam. The monotheist Christian or Jew anywhere in the world has far more in common with polytheistic Hindus than with supposedly fellow monotheists, Muslims. Islam is the odd man out, made so by its own will to power, its own teachings that split Believers from all Infidels, and counsel the need to ensure that Islam spreads across the globe. Non-Muslims may live under Muslim rule, but not in any way that any of us would wish. If that is the only thing one knows about Islam, it is enough.
Epg is dead on: refusal to convert to islam is always assumed to be from lack of information; when information (da'wa, taqquiya) is provided and the person still refuses, they are considered to be "obstinate". In many muslim countries, they can be considered 'legally' insane.
Geoff
"let us pray[...] they will join us in worship of the one true God." from the convert's post.
I'm confused. I thought Billy Graham's son was reviled because he said Muslims and Christians don't worship the same God. Sounds like this Muslim agrees with him.
Still not sure which is more offensive:
-Peter refers to JPII as a "good dhimmi,"
-within days of JPII's death, Peter says he hopes more Catholics switch to Islam (fat chance), or
-Islamicity loves this comment so much it becomes the featured comment at their main webpage.
Such chutzpah, such an insult to Catholics, it is breath-taking.
Since this guy thinks that Islam is so similar to Roman Catholicism and he is ok with Roman Catholics converting to Islam, I wonder
1. Why he thinks that being similar Islam is a better choice? Another revelations from above?
2. If he is ok with Muslims converting to Roman Catholicism???
Personally, being an atheist, with Orthodox Christian background, I see no reason why I would switch from a non-obtrusive religion to one that encourages war and stones and mutilates people.
I have a lot of trouble with anyone who claims to have been a Christian but converts to islam. I do not believe that that person ever knew Jesus Christ. NO WAY, would a real Christian convert to islam...NO WAY.
I should finish my thought on the above post. Any real Christian can recognize who islam worships, and it's NOT the G-D of the Torah or the Bible, but one who comes "as an angel of light." The god of islam was prophecied long ago, he's the beast and muhammad is the false prophet. Revelation 22:18 says 18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
All the muslim texts were after this was written.
Yet another one. Every convert that I have encountered on the internet was a Catholic, and then there is Todd Ismail Royer, John Walker Lindh, Adam Gadahn (Azzam the American).
So what is it about Islam that is so compelling to Catholics?
Answer: Patriarchial, misogynistic, CONSERVATIVE, family values.
Only Islam does it more thoroughly, leaves no wiggle room.
One thing that most Jihad Watchers have in common with the Islamoids is CONSERVATIVISM, ultra conservativism.
They criticize the Muslims for apologia and rationalizations, but are as equally quilty. For instance Waterdragons, cubed and Gary's, apologia, obfuscation and intercession for Bush.
Good ole President Bush personal friends and business partners with the chief financiers of Islamism- the Saudis.
LOL
I have just read an article entitled, "John Paul IIs Flawed Record in the Middle East," by Joseph Braude and posted on the The New Republic Online (date 4/11) It is an excellent analysis of 25 years of policies and meetings and results between the Pope and Islamists. The new Pope will need to seriously rethink the Catholic Church's approach to the Middle East before the last Christian flees the region, leaving the seat of Christianity empty. The churches will be destroyed and the sands will cover them and, just like in Saudi Arabia now, when the remains of a church emerges from the sand, a bulldozer will be quickly sent to again erase it...
That "Last Day" bulls**t is yet another parallel between Islam and Christianity, and if I suscribed to either, I wouldn't brag about all those similarities.
And right you are KJ, in fact ole Mo(or whoever it was that actually wrote the Qur'an, probably the Hadith writers, got most of there ideas from the Old and New Testament, from Judaism and Christianity.
In fact every book that I read, like ibn Warraq's, mentions exactly that, he cribbed the religion of the Jews and Christians and layered it onto the bedouin culture. There is nothing original or new in the Qur'an, just Judeo Christianity, rehashed to justify Arab Imperialism and Supremacy.
Death to the world: Orthodox Christian Nihilism
Jihad in the Bible, a Graphic commentary
And I'm suppose to be ashamed of being a secularist? How does one denounce "God's word", and since when does a god have a change of heart and a change of personality if he is omnipotent and omnescient.
The answer is that man creates his god in his own image (just like Mo did) and uses it as a ventriloquist dummy, by which he can justify policies and actions that fulfill his needs and assuage his fears.
No one on JW would argue that is what Muhammad and the Muslims do, but will take exception when it comes to the beam in their own eye.
The solution to the problem is not in a battle for god or a religious war, but in raising the level of perception,intelligence and consciousness in everyone.
A forelorn hope, back to the battle for god, so much blood to spill, so much anger and fear to vent, so little time.
I wonder if Planet Earth is not some kind of galactic Colliseum.
Giaour:
>>So what is it about Islam that is so
>>compelling to Catholics?
>>
>>Answer: Patriarchial, misogynistic,
>>CONSERVATIVE, family values.
With all due respect, I'm going to have to disagree. From what I have read, John Walker Lindh came from a hippy "New Age" type of family where he was exposed to little or no "family values." From Gadahn's narrative (see http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/newmuslims/yahiye.html ), it doesn't appear that he was really brought up in patriarchial/"family values" household either. John Allen Muhammad wasn't a RC, neither was Richard Reid.
I can't dispute your claim that most of the converts you have encountered have come from the RCC, but I will say that the one convert I know who was originally a RC hardly converted because Islam was "patriarchal". Instead he converted from a sheer hatred of bourgeois society. Personally, I think this person's mindset is much more descriptive of the Gadahn/Lindh/Muhammed/Reid mindset. These creeps would've been part of the New Left in the 60s, Nazis in the 40s, Communists in the 20s, Communards in the 1870s, and Jacobins in the 1790s.
It's the same type of foolish utopianism, except that *this* one has to be authentic because it comes straight from Allah.
The level of arrogance contained in the word "revert" as used by Mahometans is breathtaking.
I was born and lived most of my life in an Arab Muslim country. From my experience and study, Muslims are never grateful, they always hate Christians even those who help them.
I strongly believe that a true Christian would never and will never kiss this most violent and dirtiest bokk, the Qur'an. If it seems to you too much discribing it as such, please read it, and the hadith if you want, in the of the Islamic doctrine of abrogation.
Abbas
I was born and lived most of my life in an Arab Muslim country. From my experience and study, Muslims are never grateful, they always hate Christians even those who help them.
I strongly believe that a true Christian would never and will never kiss this most violent and dirtiest book, the Qur'an. If it seems to you too much discribing it as such, please read it, and the hadith if you want, in the light of the Islamic doctrine of abrogation.
Abbas
As a Catholic, it does not surprise me that a priest would not challenge the shahada (i.e., there's no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet). Most of today's priests are members of the cults of multiculturalism, pluralism, diversity and intellectual fashion rather than the Church of Christ. They go along to get along. I would be very surprised if a substantial number of them really knew what the Gospel entails beyond formulaic cliches.
I remember the first weekend after 9/11. Priests encouraged Catholics to befriend Muslims, to make them feel that they were not to blame for 9/11. It's one thing to prevent vigilantism; it's quite another to cultivate sentimental stupidity. Such a call was, at best, "inappropriate" (the ultimate weasel word of our day). What about support for the victims and their families?
I have long believed that Catholicism has a broken moral compass. Apoplexy over contraception; support for the continued existance of murderers. The church's attitude toward Islam is part of this warped morality.
Until there is a woman Pope, there is no hope in the Church against Islam. The patriarchalism is the same in both sects.
Only women really know what there is to fear from Islam.
(And there is historical precedent, in the arcana of the late medieval Catholic history, of a disguised woman as Pope.)
Let her take the name Joan.
And reclaim Europe for freedom of thought.
Technically, the cardinals can pick ANY Catholic for Pope. It does not have to be a cardinal. Or even a man.
If it happens, I'll believe in miracles.
(It would make the mullahs drop a brick, for sure.)
Muslims just cant resist it, can they? They can never simply offer a blessing or a prayer without a reference to Islam accompanied by several words meant to demonstrate their compassion. Who but a Muslim would dream of saying:
" ... let us pray for the Pope, though not a Muslim, he was a dhimmi, " - as though it shows some kind of godlike compassion to pray for someone of another faith. Muslims condemn themselves as hateful bigots every time they open their mouths.
I agree in one respect - the Pope, with all due respect, was fat too dhimmi for my liking.
Perhaps the next pope will have have more understanding of the enemy. Especially if that person is George Pell, the Australian who is in the running - I dont think this will happen, but its nice to dream. Pell comprehends the danger of Islam.
I see this one is a 'convert' - double poison. And he lies - most Roman Catholics would rather die than submit to Islam.
Give away catholicism, give away Jesus Christ, give away assured salvation for what? 70 virgins a number of pearls - hairless (pubic hair) boys!!
What a stupid decision, give away eternity to worship a blood thirsty pagan god. numbat
All due respect, you are all forgetting an important detail. Take a look at this article:
http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=8551&eng=y
There is a Realpolitik motivation behind this understatement from Vatican authorities and their newspaper: silence on the Islamic origin of the terrorist offensive is the price paid to protect Christians from more serious threats, and in particular the Christians who live in Muslim countries.
But at the same time, the Vatican is aware that the current "fourth world war" (the words of Cardinal Renato Martino, imprudent as usual) against the West, Christianity, Judaism, and Muslim “apostates” is not the result of generic terrorism, but of Islamist terrorism.
It's a no win situation. Catholics and other Christians and non-muslims in general are being butchered in anywhere islam has significant power. On the one hand, silence is evil, on the other hand, a voice will be even more deadly for already suffering people.
I am RC. There are very few RC priests I have met who are not aware of the dangers of Islam - in fact that goes for a lot of other non - RC priests as well.
Silence is evil, but it's not necessarily out of a desire to condone.
Are you feeling a bit inadequate? Feeling like a loser? Is The Man getting you down? Do you feel you're not getting your Just Desserts?
We have the perfect solution to your inferiority complex! Revert to the Master Religion today and you too can feel superior to most other people on Planet Earth. You can even feel superior to the Pope. Now, to you a Member of the Master of the Master Religion, he is a mere Dhimmi! It's YOU who is now Cock of the Walk.
And don't forget, you get FOUR wives thrown in for FREE, that'll teach them b****s their place!
Are you feeling a bit inadequate? Feeling like a loser? Is The Man getting you down? Do you feel you're not getting your Just Desserts?
We have the perfect solution to your inferiority complex! Revert to the Master Religion today and you too can feel superior to most other people on Planet Earth! You can feel superior to, yes, even the Pope! Now, to you a Member of the Master Religion, he is a mere Dhimmi! It's YOU who is now Cock of the Walk.
And don't forget, you get FOUR wives thrown in for FREE, that'll teach them b****s their place!
'silence on the Islamic origin of the terrorist offensive is the price paid to protect Christians from more serious threats, and in particular the Christians who live in Muslim countries.' ~Daria
Right there with you, Daria. RC here also. And would add, The very Same reason some things went the way they did during WW II. I have to wonder how much of the RC Church in Europe would be left- and where it's capital would be now- if they had forcefully stood up to Hitler. I think he would have bombed the Vatican into dust.
DianaC,
I don't know that, were I a Catholic, I'd rather die than 'convert'. Certainly Catholics (and other Christians) have been forced to practice their faith in secret in other times. If I were forced to become islamic in a majority-muslim country, I'd 'take' their little shahada, with it's little comprehension of a very little god, and then simply continue to practice the real faith in secret.
All the while, of course, corrupting and undermining their society from the inside.
For does the Quran not say: "travel four months in the land of the unbeliever"?
Geoff
Carolyn wrote: I have a lot of trouble with anyone who claims to have been a Christian but converts to islam. I do not believe that that person ever knew Jesus Christ. NO WAY, would a real Christian convert to islam...NO WAY.
Posted by: Carolyn2
And Linda agrees 100% I used to debate with an alleged "Christian Revert" but after awhile it became obvious that she never knew the Lord and she was very easy prey for the 'prince of power of the air'. She was also (gag) married to a muslim male and had children with him, which automatically makes the children muslim. She "reverted" under pressure, even though there's "no compulsion in religion" ya right.
Matthew 24 warns us of the 'false prophet'. Whenever I hear a muslim claim that mohammed's coming was foretold in the Bible, I refer them to Matt 24. It really chaps their hides!
Gaiour: One thing that most Jihad Watchers have in common with the Islamoids is CONSERVATIVISM, ultra conservativism.
They criticize the Muslims for apologia and rationalizations, but are as equally quilty. For instance Waterdragons, cubed and Gary's, apologia, obfuscation and intercession for Bush.
Linda: Gaiour, you constantly criticize both this site and its contributors. Instead of frustrating yourself to the point that you go off on these amazing rants, why don't you find someplace where you "like" the content.... Let me recommend sites like islamcity.com, al-jazeera.com, muslim students association.com, CAIR.com, etc.
And, be advised that islam has absolutely NOTHING in common with Christianity, Judaism OR Hinduism so stop trying to compare, and take your steaming piles of taquiyya elsewhere, where they might be more appreciated. My opinion is that you are a frustrated muslim "plant" Go away. Good day.
Geoff wrote: I don't know that, were I a Catholic, I'd rather die than 'convert'. Certainly Catholics (and other Christians) have been forced to practice their faith in secret in other times. If I were forced to become islamic in a majority-muslim country, I'd 'take' their little shahada, with it's little comprehension of a very little god, and then simply continue to practice the real faith in secret.
Linda: Geoff, I normally agree with your posts and enjoy them. This one rubbed me the wrong way. If I were given the choice to convert to islam (deny Jesus & accept Satan) or die, I'd gladly offer my neck to the islamic sword of death.
Geoff... new and improved... now with a little more chutzpa and a lot less dhimmi :o)
No offense, cause I do enjoy reading you!
Just Linda:
Please note that although Giaour labels me, among others, an ultraconservative, he's the one who hasn't voted in a US presidential election since he cast a ballot for Barry Goldwater. I'm a Canadian, and, so far as I can recall, Goldwater was the (far right) Republican nominee in 1964.
On the other hand, I was involved in the New Democratic Party of Canada since I was a teenager, but have let my membership lapse about 6 years ago because it is no longer the party of T.C. Douglas (father of Medicare in North America) and David Lewis (a Zionist Labour lawyer)but rather of @ssholes like Svend Robinson and the current leader, Jack Layton. I still vote for NDP candidates when they are worthy individuals, and, occasionally for Liberals, but the last time I voted Tory, it was for Red Tory David Crombie when he was running for mayor of Toronto.
I'd make some ultra-conservative, wouldn't I?
Just_Linda,
No worries - I enjoy being read!
I can completely understand about you being pissed, though - this is a core component of Christian theology: don't deny 'el Hefe'. That's bad mojo for Christians, and I can see why. I really respect your position; there's a lot of moral fibre in it. Don't mind me; I'm just flappin' from my Gnostic corner. It all be good.
Geoff
"Now With 100% More Moral Fibre!"