Here's one for the moral equivalence crowd: Christians want to outlaw same-sex marriage; Muslims are sentencing gays to lashings. From the Guardian, with thanks to Skeetstreet:
Dozens of Saudi men caught dancing and "behaving like women" at a party have been sentenced to a total of 14,200 lashes, after a trial held behind closed doors and without defence lawyers. The men were also given jail sentences of up to two years.They were arrested last month when the police in Jeddah raided a party which was described by a Saudi newspaper as a "gay wedding".
"Prosecuting and imprisoning people for homosexual conduct are flagrant human rights violations," Scott Long, of the US organisation Human Rights Watch said. "Subjecting the victims to floggings is torture, pure and simple."
HRW said it had established that 31 of the men received prison sentences of six months to one year, plus 200 lashes each. Four were jailed for two years with 2,000 lashes....
HRW said that according to a friend of one of the arrested men the gathering was a birthday party.
But the Saudi newspaper al-Wifaq, which has connections with the interior ministry, carried a report on March 16, six days after the arrests, saying the men were "dancing and behaving like women".
Mr. Spencer I think you've been reading too many Muslim apologetics. It is starting to influence your own thoughts.
Here is how you introduction (which I've seen other conservatives spout) reads to me:
See how nice/progressive/tolerant we Christians are, we don't beat/kill homosexuals (at least not officially), we just deny them the right to form legal unions in socities built upon (as we conservatives so oft remind you) said legal unions.
See how nice/progressive/tolerant we Muslims are, we don't beat/kill non-Muslims (at least not officially), we just deny them...well you can fill in the rest.
Kali~ interesting choice of names: a god worshipped by mass-murderers:
http://www.arcane-archive.org/religion/hinduism/thugee-is-kali-worship-1.php
How tolerant is that?
Now if only the World would express the same concern at the outright killing of Gays in Palestine,oops,not to suppose to tell the truth about the Muslim fanatics that are freedom-fighters for the oppressed people of Palestine.
BTW,as a tie-in topic to gays and the Popes death,many people are now critical over the Catholic Church because of the sex abuse scandal.
Well for the record,I've heard little about unwanted babies from the assault by the Priests and this is because the new Liberalism allowed
homosexual pedophiles access to the Church and it was boys being assaulted by men that was the issue.
So lets deal with pedophiles equally,hetero or homo,justice in the eyes of children is what counts most and not the PC mindset of absolving
Gays since they can't help themselves for not living by the same values as the rest of society.
Kali, how do you categorize yourself? Perhaps, "See what an open-minded/liberal/tolerant secular humanist I am: I approve of everyone and everything, except for crackpots with moral codes based on the Bible. Now, moral codes based on MTV and HBO. Cool!
Kali-
"Marriage", everywhere and at all times, has a real defined and profound sense. The union of the two complementary genders in the hope of creating those children needed for the species to continue.
Most people prefer to keep such communal reality as it has been, letting the word "marriage" stay just as it is. And not fiddle with basic human meanings.
And most people (at least in the West), have no opposition to a 'legal union' arrangement for gays, -to protect inheritence rights, insurance and pension benefits, medical decisions, etc..
But not for gay "marriage", which changes a core truth of the species.
By pressing the majority of people to change too fast and with a strategy that is too hard on this central civilizational fact of life, gays have endangered the growing empathy and tolerance that has only arisen in the West in the past 30 years. (Watch a film like "Advise and Consent" to see what was going on in the early 1960's...)
For being so "pushy", gays might lose the possiblity of a 'legal union', in some states, for another generation. If they had been more psychosocially savvy, it probably would have already become a 'given' in most places by now.
IF the 'legal benefits' are what is really desired, these percs WILL come.
However, if it NOT just to secure rights, but is to change the agreed-upon reality of one the world's main cultural meanings, then I would advise them to move cautiously.
Humans are comfortable with marriage as it is.
Uncertainty does not make for rationality.
Let people adjust to radical new re-visions of the world, or they make kick back reflexively.
(Personally, I think biological 'gay'-ness is Nature's clever response to overpopulation -to keep us from destroying too much of the planet's ecosphere, just as some species of deer, when overcrowded, become sterile... but that doesn't mean I think gays should be prevented from having the legal rights to inherit, control medical decisions, have access to joint life insurance policies, etc., etc...)
As far as the Saudi/Islamic reaction, posted by Mr. Spencer, goes-
From what I have heard through friends, homosexuality among men in the Arab world is an open secret, perhaps linked with their contempt for women as less-than-worthy half-humans. In the same manner that men of the ancient Platonic period of Greece idolized young males more than females, and had openly gay relationships in a kind of mentor/apprentice mode.
The Saudis' 'whipping' of gays may just be a cunningly sublimated and 'religiously' disguised form of homosexual sado-masochistic eroticism of their own.
As Shakespeare put it:
"Methinks they doth protest too much."
Kali is the Hindu goddess of creation as well as destruction, not just a mass murderer. In fact all Hindu gods have dual natures, as men do.
I would say that most JW types are essentially of the same ilk and mindset as the Muslims.
Two extreme forms of patriarchialism, squared off at the OK corral.
As a secular (albeit anti patriarchial, anti theocratic) liberal I see no substantial difference twixt the two.
Poor righteous "conservatives", Muslims are "conservative" as well, and hold identical social and cultural values as you do.. so what's the quarrel anyway, over ritual, dogma, the nature of god?
No grounds for a quarrel.
On the other hand it appears that Kali and I have serious grounds for a quarrel with Gary, Big Sleep, Shiva, and the phoney who calls himself former liberal wf, as well as the Muslims.
No friends or allies here or there.
Patriarchialism, homophobia, misogyny (and homophobia is misogynia writ large), hatred and fear of "liberals" and atheists, make "conservative" non Muslims indistinguishable from Muslims.
You guys are a "piece of work".
Let's see heads its' Islamofascists
Tails it's Judeo Christian fascists.
That's a coin I won't flip.
By the way Gary, you and your like minded ilk are going to lose and lose big time, because
l. You alienate allies
and a house divided cannot stand
2. Because you are gullible, feckless and totally ideological (ideology is for idiots, Muslims are ideological as well, in fact you are just as fanatic as they, and there is no substantial diference between you and your enemy.). but you gullibility makes you susceptible to agitprop and disinfo from Judas goats and pied pipers whom you would not trust if you had a brain of your own.
Cheers.
Thank you Giaour for defending Kali whilst I was sleeping. I am so used to Christians and Muslims belittling Hinduism that it is usually not worth responding. It is intriguing however to see believers in the Abrahamic god calling another divinity a 'mass murderer'. The god of Abraham is proudly said to have killed all the firstborn of Egypt. Speaks for itself. The Bible books are filled with the Abrahmic god killing or ordering the death (rape, maiming, etc) of countless people. And they wonder where the Muslims get their notion of an intolerant, violent deity.
testing
Well, I'm not for public stonings and floggings, but I admit to being a homophobe myself. Anyone who can enjoy either giving or getting something a little like a colonoscopy scares the living daylights out of me. Hence, you will never be able to convince me that homosexual practice (at least male sodomy) is as healthy and normal as married heterosexual coitus. Hence, even were I a non-believer I'd probably see no reason why our society should be at all solicitous for homosexual practice.
But I do admit that when I consider the Peecee Left's alliance with Islamofascism, reports like Mr. Spencer's post do amuse me a little.
Kali: How does traditional Hinduism treat a young man who, instead of taking a wife and raising a family, follows a homosexual path? I admittedly don't know Hinduism well, but the Hindus I have met seem to be generally, well, "family-oriented", to say the least.
Some of your points about divine violence are well taken--as is Geoff's curiosity about your monniker Kali when you don't seem to be a violence-loving person. My advice to you about understanding the "divine violence" in which we Abrahamites believe is that you should read the books of Deuteronomy and Lamentations in the Old Testament. It is Jeremiah the Prophet's confession of the righteousness of God's judgment on Jerusalem back in the early 6th century BC (the city was sacked by the Babylonians and the people carried off captive).
Yes, we do indeed believe that some nations do become too corrupt to be allowed to see the light of another day--and we tremble lest we ourselves become such a one. Because the sins of the Amorites (Amurru-"Westerners" to someone who, like Abraham, was born in Mesopotamia) were not full, Abraham was not allowed to inherit the promised land, but it would fall to his descendents later. The fearful command to exterminate the Canaanites (Amorites) issued to Israel is not a self-righteous arrogation of ultimate justice to ourselves, but comes with a warning that if we practice the same abominations, the same fate will befall us (it did--as the Old Testament history and prophecy shows).
And, as for God smiting the firstborn of Egypt and sparing the firstborn of Israel, God's own "firstborn" (the one with pride of place; and the first to rise permanently from the dead; not one with a temporal beginning) himself took on our flesh and gave his life that our sins might be forgiven (evil Karma overcome by the greatest good?).
This is why the New Testament, looking back how Jesus the righteous one gave his life for sinners, instructs us to leave off taking vengeance, since God can and will do it himself (Rom. 12:19). If God, O Christian, has been gracious to you and has forgiven you, should you not forbear wreaking vengeance on those who wrong you, and you formerly wronged God?
And, Kali, as someone generally curious about the world beyond the places where I was born, raised, and have lived, what does traditional Hinduism say about homosexuality?
An Australian homosexual has just been sentenced to 24 months in prison for having consensual sex with a young man in his twenties.
The judge was most disapproving - the man was instructed to limit his behaviour to his own society and his actions were called 'disgusting'.
This happened in Fiji.
the men were "dancing and behaving like women". So how is silently wearing a black shroud and walking 2 paces behind each other offensive? That’s all Saudi women seem to be allowed to do.
But on the point of the Hindu religion, I grew up, still live and work in a very racially, and culturally mixed area. From quite young I noticed that when talking to Hindus they would speak of “God” not “the Gods” (my GP was very encouraging about the value of prayer in a time of trouble some years ago) in such terms that I (personal opinion only, no offence meant if I have unwittingly thought something contrary to Hindu belief) could see the Divine behind the unfamiliar pantheon. A Hindu friend spoke recently of Holy Mother in terms reminiscent of a Catholic friend with a particular devotion to the BVM. She meant Durga, who I believe also has a fierce aspect. But what Mother does not. And I think that her extra arms are an asset to any woman with a home and family to run. Another Hindu friend, who I know prayed often for me, once brought me some holy coconut, which seemed a sacrament similar to my Catholic friend’s Lourdes water.
My point being that the Hindu pantheon has always seemed less alien to me, at least in the way their faith affects the people I meet, than Islam, despite the joint monotheism and Abrahamic roots. And the diversity of Hinduism seems in practice that they were not inclined to berate me for the blasphemy of believing that Christ is God made man, always the stumbling block in Christian/Islamic dialogue.
I can never remember a Moslem expressing any spiritual depth or joy around prayer; it always seemed a mechanical exercise. The faces of my colleagues after a trip to the prayer room do not compare to the faces I see returning from the communion rail.
I seem to have gone OT somewhat here, but offer my odd thoughts, for what they are worth.
giaour~ I am quite aware of All sides of the goddess Kali. Thank you for showing us even further where you stand. Keep up the lies, maybe someday someone will believe you.
It's the perfect Anti-Science: Mention only the facts that back you up, ignore contradictory data, vilify anyone that questions you, stamp out calls for reform, repeat the lies again and again, and eventually you will win. ~ kj
On the other hand it appears that Kali and I have serious grounds for a quarrel with Gary, Big Sleep, Shiva,
Whats your gripe?
That's pretty tame by the standards in Canada,for the last several years in Toronto
the Gay pride parade has topless lesbians and naked men flaunting their genitals in front of children.
The Politicians promote it as a Family" event
and the Federal leader of the NDP(Jack Layton)
and his wife(Olivia Chow) join in the parade with their tandem bike and pro-Gay T-shirts,while the Police stand by and are ordered to allow this display by overt pedophiles getting their jollies with kids watching,the same Politicians (and Olivia Chow) claim to fight for the rights of children and want tougher laws on kiddie porn and pedophilia.
It's the Gay lobby that's against the call for the age-of-consent to be raised from 14 to 16,pro-gay papers run ads for men to boys dating
and Lawyer's providing help for bringing foreign Gay lovers(young men) from pedophilia friendly
Countries to Canada as refugees or for landed immigrant status.
The Saudis have just bought a major Hotel in Canada and it won't be long before they set the rules for dress and behaviour by employees,and the Government will stand by and allow it as to not offend Muslims.
Islam and cancer spread slowly and consume their hosts as part of killing the victim from the inside outward to hide the seriousness of the problem.