Here's an article by none other than Tariq Ramadan, who was prevented by DHS from teaching at Notre Dame last fall, calling for "An International call for Moratorium on corporal punishment, stoning and the death penalty in the Islamic World." (Thanks to Alain for the link.)
Muslim majority societies and Muslims around the world are constantly confronted with the fundamental question of how to implement the penalties prescribed in the Islamic penal code. Evoking the notion of sharî'a, or more precisely hudûd[1], the terms of the debate are defined by central questions emerging from thought provoking discussions taking place between ulamâ' (scholars) and/or Muslim masses: How to be faithful to the message of Islam in the contemporary era? How can a society truly define itself as "Islamic" beyond what is required in the daily practices of individual private life? But a critical and fruitful debate has not yet materialized. Several currents of thought exist in the Islamic world today and disagreements are numerous, deep and recurring. Among these, a small minority demands the immediate and strict application of hudûd, assessing this as an essential prerequisite to truly defining a "Muslim majority society" as "Islamic". Others, while accepting the fact that the hudûd are indeed found in the textual references (the Qur'an and the Sunna[2]), consider the application of hudûd to be conditional upon the state of the society which must be just and, for some, has to be "ideal" before these injunctions could be applied. Thus, the priority is the promotion of social justice, fighting against poverty and illiteracy etc. Finally, there are others, also a minority, who consider the texts relating to hudûd as obsolete and argue that these references have no place in contemporary Muslim societies.One can see the opinions on this subject are so divergent and entrenched that it becomes difficult to discern what the respective arguments are. At the very moment we are writing these lines- while serious debate is virtually non-existent, while positions remain vague and even nebulous, and consensus among Muslims is lacking- women and men are being subjected to the application of these penalties....
All the ulamâ' (scholars) of the Muslim world, of yesterday and of today and in all the currents of thought, recognize the existence of scriptural sources that refer to corporal punishment (Qur'an and Sunna), stoning of adulterous men and women (Sunna) and the penal code (Qur'an and Sunna). The divergences between the ulamâ' and the various trends of thought (literalist, reformist, rationalist, etc.) are primarily rooted in the interpretation of a certain number of these texts, the conditions of application of the Islamic penal code, as well as its degree of relevance to the contemporary era (nature of the committed infractions, testimonials, social and political contexts, etc.).
The majority of the ulamâ', historically and today, are of the opinion that these penalties are on the whole Islamic but that the conditions under which they should be implemented are nearly impossible to reestablish. These penalties, therefore, are "almost never applicable". The hudûd would, therefore, serve as a "deterrent," the objective of which would be to stir the conscience of the believer to the gravity of an action warranting such a punishment.
So it isn't that the penalties themselves are un-Islamic. They are Islamic. But conditions aren't right for their implementation. Yet in Saudi Arabia and Iran it seems as if most scholars agree that conditions are just fine.
Ramadan goes on to base his call for a moratorium on the assertion that these penalties are being used to degrade women. I doubt if that will fly among those who already practice stoning. And it also leads to the further question: if Dr. Ramadan were assured that women's rights were being safeguarded in the Islamic world, would he then call for a resumption of stoning?
Muslims are not free to enjoy or express full Islam in polite company. Revealing Islam’s true nature shows it to be detestable and must remain hidden until full control is attained. Islam is totalitarianism
Wow. Interesting and telling.
So stoning IS okay, and there is textual support for it. But" "the conditions under which they should be implemented are nearly impossible to reestablish".
Well, let's hope Mr. Ramadam gets his wish. Why, if only the world was in the caliphate, that these laws could be enacted. If only the world was so wise, so beautiful that WOMEN COULD BE STONED TO DEATH.
Wouldn't that be beautiful? That's beautiful. That's - islam. Yaaay. I notice Ramadan doesn't say whether he considers these penalities "good".
Wait, he does: "The majority of the ulamâ’, historically and today, are of the opinion that these penalties are on the whole Islamic". Ergo, since Islam is 100% "good", those penalties are too. It's amazing how every other religion in the world doesn't have this kind of amazing conceit, that it imagines that every single thing in its scriptures is good. Believers can look at those scriptures and decide what's crap and what's not.
Ramadan is an extremist. If he, as he says, is not an extremist, then is it the religion itself that is extreme? According to Ramadam, yes.
Geoff
"Moratorium" generally means "a temporary cessation" usually for tactical reasons.
So, once the need for hitting people in the face with rocks in public until they hemmorhage and die a horrible, torurous death again becomes agreeable to the 'religious' majority, well then the deal's off.
Lovely folks.
Can't wait for Canada to get Sharia Law... plenty of stones in those Canadian Rockies...
Moratorium... Hell no!It should be ban.
This snake -- who was not "prevented" from teaching at Notre Dame, where his loyal claque arranged for videoconferencing -- was on the BBC early this morning. Quite something. All about how Muslims are here to stay in Europe, they are "European" -- apparently he seems to think mere physical presence on the soil of Europe makes one European, just as, presumably, had Idi Amin chosen to spend his Muslim exile in Paris rather than Saudi Arabia, he would have been a "European." And of course we all know just how "European" the Ayatollah Khomeini became in his mental makeup, when he was in exile for years at Neauphle-le-chateau.
Ramadan offered up the story of his mother giving him a book in French which, she told him (he loves these stories of tenderness about his parents or "my grandfather, he was my grandfather" Hassan al-Banna, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood) -- was "his culture." But French culture, rooted both in the Enlightenment and in Christianity (parallel, but somehow those parallels manage at times even to meet), have nothing to do with the ideolgoy of Islam, which is the sworn enemy of both. His "culture" is Islam; he is confusing mere knowledge of a language -- French -- with the civilization of France. He lives in Europe, Tariq Ramadan, but is not of Europe, not European. That should not be forgotten.
He also went into the slyer version of taqiyya - but of course his entire discussion was about what Muslims want, what Muslims need. If non-Muslims -- you know, all those people who live in, and whose ancestors helped to construct, Europe -- were mentioned by him, it was only in terms of those non-Muslims coming to accept Muslims, instead of treating them with such unfair and baseless suspicion. Why were Muslims being blamed for this and that? 9/11 was terrible of course, and all good Muslims deplored (!) the events...etc.
You get the idea. The serpent. The forked tongue. That hissing sound.
How quaint…how so veryislamic. A ‘moratorium’ popular definitions, of which, include:
1. a : a legally authorized period of delay in the performance of a legal obligation or the payment of a debt;
b : waiting period set by some authority : a delay officially required or granted.
2. : a suspension of activity : a temporary ban on the use or production of something.
So Tariq, do tell, when can we expect the resumption of these popular of islamic pastimes? When the political climate is…say…slightly less critical and/or a little more respectful of islamic tradition? Surely your not casting doubt on those unholy and barbaric proscriptions commanded by the great Fubar himself, allah, or those described in that wonderful comic-book for sociopaths…the Qray’on?
As Robert well noted, it's only the current popular climate and political conditions which are unfavorable for the continuance of such behavior, not the behavior itself. Yes they must certainly keep up with the times...while working and praying for a more barbaric future.
Jeez, Kant and enlightenment philosophers are turning over in their graves at this kind of talk. So, stoning as punishment for adultery is 'Islamic' under appropriate circumstances; at the very least this mean stoning is morally acceptable, but does it also imply that stoning is obligatory if Sharia has been implemented in a 'true' Islamic society? How could punishments, that are truly Islamic, not be obliged? If lapidation and other punishments described in Islamic sources are not obliged, but mere recommendations, then Muslims must admit that there are other sources or rules that are more authoritative than the Qur'an and Sunnah. So, what sources or authorities are these? And if there are no such sources, then how can one even say that stoning is 'unacceptable' in certain circumstances. One surely cannot mean 'morally unacceptable', one must mean 'not practical'. The unacceptability of stoning must be a matter of prudence and not a question of morality or justice.
And, of course, contemporary Western standards of justice (based in the Enlightenment and Judeo-Christian principles) presuppose that stoning as a punishment for adultery is unconditionally wrong. Everything that Ramadan says here contradicts that basic principle.
This is just the start, of course. The slinky, slimy word play and bending of rules, that exude absolutely no pathos for the millions of women who live under the threat of these barbaric punishments, open up horrific possibilities to the folly of these bizaare rationalizations.
Like the Qur'an females are addressed by the male voice, the voice of authority, the voice of the Prophet, the voice of Allah, the super-man, the rule-maker.
What is just as sickening as Ramadan's pathetic plea for a moratorium on behaviour 80% of the world considers too barbaric for words, is that he is being celebrated as a great and courageous thinker for writing this. (The one of the most important of the 21st century according to Time magazine, which also made Hitler the man of the year back in the 1930s)
If any other so-called intellectual wrote this about any other religion or country -- that it was time to rethink stoning, corporal punishment, etc., the condescention could be cut with a knife.
When I first set out to get some knowledge about Islam, after reading the Qur'an (and wretching) and Maxime Rodinson's Muhammad, I almost bought Tariq's taqiyyah (Book) fortunately I saved myself the waste of money (and also did not contribute to the Jihad) by first reading Robert's Onward Muslim Soldiers.
Robert exposes, quite nicely thank you, Tariq Ramadan.
All Jihad Watchers should support Robert and buy his books, especially Onward Muslim Soldiers.
BTW Robert I ordered your latest book, The Myth of Islamic Tolerance" from Amazon, but strangely it is back ordered and to be shipped sometime after April llth, as is Bat Ye'ors Eurabia.
I wonder what's going on.
Waterdragon, et al, I know you are perplexed by what appears to be uneven handed treatment, but follow the (Saudi) money, not just to universities, but to Washington,London,Paris, Berlin, Berne.
Or better yet read Paul Sperry's Infiltration.
The problem is not just "left wing" intellectuals but right wing and conservative politicians.
But until you grasp that fact, you will always be wringing your hands.
Israel is not sitting on 80% of the worlds oil reserves, and hasn't received trillions in Jizyah (oil revenues), neither have western countries.
I read a statement by an Egyptian some time ago, he said "Why should we study science, invest and produce, we have the unbeliever slaves to do it for us".
If this new techology works out, European and American dollars will no longer be going into the pockets of OPEC.
"Say "nanotechnology" and people are likely to think of micro machines or zippy computer chips. But in a new twist, Rutgers scientists are using nanotechnology in chemical reactions that could provide hydrogen for tomorrow's fuel-cell powered clean energy vehicles.
In a paper to be published April 20 in the Journal of the American Chemical Society, researchers at Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey, describe how they make a finely textured surface of the metal iridium that can be used to extract hydrogen from ammonia, then captured and fed to a fuel cell. The metal's unique surface consists of millions of pyramids with facets as tiny as five nanometers (five billionths of a meter) across, onto which ammonia molecules can nestle like matching puzzle pieces. This sets up the molecules to undergo complete and efficient decomposition.
A major obstacle to establishing the "hydrogen economy" is the safe and cost-effective storage and transport of hydrogen fuel. The newly discovered process could contribute to the solution of this problem. Handling hydrogen in its native form, as a light and highly flammable gas, poses daunting engineering challenges and would require building a new fuel distribution infrastructure from scratch.
By using established processes to bind hydrogen with atmospheric nitrogen into ammonia molecules (which are simply one atom of nitrogen and three atoms of hydrogen), the resulting liquid could be handled much like today's gasoline and diesel fuel. Then using nanostructured catalysts based on the one being developed at Rutgers, pure hydrogen could be extracted under the vehicle's hood on demand, as needed by the fuel cell, and the remaining nitrogen harmlessly released back into the atmosphere. The carbon-free nature of ammonia would also make the fuel cell catalyst less susceptible to deactivation".
http://www.physorg.com/news3534.html
I look forward to the day that this new technology is finalized and available.
You rock, Rutgers researchers!
Treehugger
Thoughts on the prince of the muslim brotherhood - (with thanks to my JW friends)
Ramadan disassembles, reassembles
an assembly line of empty words
and gossamer webs of faulty logic
"slinky slimy word play" says JTF.
Yes, he's a deadly "snake" Hugh,
coiled to bite and inject venom
into young, middle-class
muslim men and women.
His own jihad it seems
is to deceive us, the unbelievers,
with half-truths and blatant lies,
while his hooded eyes,
mesmerize and woo us
to his lair where he'll lull us
to sleep with the hiss of his lullaby,
and give us a goodnight kiss of dhimmi death.
Cry for notre dame
where the mohammedan infidel
has breeched the citadel.
The holy mother weeps.
Notice how he didn't outright condemn the practise because of the Shariah codes that would put his life in danger for contesting the Quran and muhammed.
Just once I'd like to hear a Muslim condemn the terrorists or violent thugs that are doing a disservice to islam,they only denounce the act as un-Islamic.
Hugh:
Tariq Ramada was interviewed on CBC radio a couple of weeks ago. I had the same impression - he came across as a little too slippery. If he was a salesman that I encountered (I suppose he is in a way) I would immediately walk the other way.
John
johnb:
Ramadan was on TVO last week and it was a video from his seminar at the University of Toronto,the crowd was mixed and he portrayed
Islam in a friendly,peaceful light that seemed to fool the non-Muslim students that fell for it.
Students want more Government funding to help with their tuition bills,they complain that after finishing school they are left with as much as 35,000 dollars in debts.
I can understand their anger,in the old days the price of higher education was to assist in higher paying jobs from their skills,now it appears that Universities aren't places for free-thinkers or retaining the knowledge you pay for to be more employable to pay off the debt.
The indoctrine of the Liberal mindsets on these aimless automatrons is the main reason why I don't want one cent of my tax money to fund
the new adult daycare centre's where you drop off your teens for up to four years,when the system is through with them you then are expected to let them move back home and listen to their tirades
about capitalism and consumerism to create wealth.
Ramadan found a few suckers and even a few Muslims in the crowd looked shocked at his
moderate stand on the western versions of Islam.
He did state that it was in Africa while among Christians that he learned about unconditional love and social bonds based on the desire to help the needy no matter what their faith is,this observation is normal and his major error is
believing Christian are an extension of Islam.
The god of Muslims is NOT the god of Christians.