"Blast injures four in Thailand's restive south," from China View, with thanks to JS:
BANGKOK, Four soldiers were injured Monday in a blast in Thailand's Muslim-dominated South, less than 24 hours after three bomb rocked the region, sources to Xinhua said.In Yala, one of the three southernmost border provinces in the kingdom, an explosion occurred at 1:30 p.m. Monday on a college campus where a football [match] was held. Four soldiers were seriously injured in the blast.
The bomb, planted in the area where the military vehicles were parked, was triggered by remote control, said the source.
The foot[ball] match was organized by local authorities in a bid to develop good relations with Muslim residents in 75 villages of the province.
On Sunday night, three explosions went off in Hat Yai town of the southern Songkhla province, killing two people and injuring dozens....
"The foot[ball] match was organized by local authorities in a bid to develop good relations with Muslim residents in 75 villages of the province."
In Thailand, it is millions of paper origami birds, more development money, and soccer matches. In Europe, it is government funds for mosques, language classes, special programs, even a class in Holland, for Arabs, in how to pick up local girls in a "nice way."
In the United States, it is the bending-over-backwards not to articulate the real problem, to keep on bending before outrageous demands in stead of, everywhere clamping down hard on CAIR and those who, in their incessant attacks on minimal security efforts to combat the Jihad (even if not properly identifying it), make the lives of American Infidels more imperilled than they need be, and certainly have increased the cost of that security.
It will not work. In Thailand, even if some "good-will" had been temporarily achieved, that "good-will" can evanesce quickly under the assault of local preachers simply reading from the Qur'an, quoting the Hadith, citing the model of Muhammad from the Sira. And it need not be a live preacher; it could be audiocassettes, videocassettes, a program picked up on from a satellite channel, or from a Thai Muslim freshly back from studies, or work, in Egypt or Saudi Arabia, or the U.A.E.
It is what Islam teaches that is the problem. As long as Islam remains Islam (and how can it change?) those teachings will be there. To the extent that Muslim villagers in southern Thailand can remain ignorant of those teachings, and can be prevented from learning about them,or out of some local conditions manage not to pay too much attention to them, or have a tradition of syncretism (as in parts of Indonesia), or of nonchalance and nonobservance (as used to be the case in parts of the Balkans), or live in a society that has managed to deliberately censor the transmission of Islmaic tenets in the khutbas (as happens in Tunisia and Turkey) -- well, in that case one can tie down Islam.
But it remains, always ready to reappear, in the brains of the Believers. A dormant virus can come alive, in a group or an indidivual carrier, at any point. That is the problem.
It will not be discussed by those who are inhibitied because of their desire not to offend Muslims -- including those who may have reached positions of authority (such as Zalmay Khalilzad). But it has to be discussed by Infidels; they cannot allow such inhibitions.
During World War II, American generals did not have the problem. No one worried about offending those who considered themselves German-Americans or Japanese-Americans, and no one should have. It was a war for existence. No one today should, in the Western world, be inhibited from discussing the role of Islam in the same open manner that, for example, defectors from Islam manage to do.
These reviews of a production of "Hamlet" that fail to mention the Prince should be getting on everyone's nerves.
In fact, the "good will" that the Thai government thought might result is akin to the gratitude that, by rights, the American government should expect to have been shown by Iraqis. They were subject to a monstrous regime, that had been in power for 35 years, and was fully prepared to remain for another 35. Under that regime 182,000 Kurds were murdered. Hundreds of thousands of Shi'a were murdered. Tens of thousands of Sunni opponenents were murdered. Uday and Qusay had their way with any attractive girl in Iraq; and gave new and sinister meaning to the phrase "post coitum omne animal triste" by aferwards murdering the girls. The other kinds of torture need not be discussed here. But all of it -- the massacres at Halabja, the destruction of the Marsh Arabs, the killings in the south, the rapes and murders and torturing that was all routine, did not cause a tear to drop anywhere in the so-called Arab world, nor evoke a syllable of protest.
Only the United States, at great cost, managed to free Iraq. And it stayed, to round up the rest of the regime, to build and repair and reconstruct, and spend $300 billion. And what is the reaction? Is that Iraqi girl who turned to hug the dead Marine's mother at the inauguration speech, a representative -- or an unrepresentative -- Iraqi? What are Muslim Iraqis told to think by their masters, the muftis who answer their questions and Tell Them What to Think because Allah Knows Best (and they, of course, are merely channeling Allah).
The answers are always the same. Play along with the Americans as long as you need them to do the dirty work of security. Play along to use them, to derive what benefits you can (and material benefits also matter). Then, at a moment's notice, when you deem it the moment when you do not need them, turn on them.
Here is one sample, chosen at random from many you can find at www.islamonline.net or a hundred other sites:
"...cooperation with the American invading forces is subject to the urgent necessity which calls for it. Also, this cooperation should only be in case that it is not possible to achieve peace and security in the country except with the Americans’ assistance. Here we say that necessity knows no laws. Nevertheless, necessity is measured according to its scope. Therefore, the Iraqi police or those individuals must cut every relation with the usurping enemy forces as soon as things are settled down in Iraq, because extending the relation with them more than that means explicit confession to the authority of the invaders over Iraq."
The initial invasion and removal of the regime was Iraq War #1. The attempts to find and destroy the major weaponry and weapons projects, and to build thousands of schoolrooms, hundreds of hospitals, repair and expand power grids, roads, oilfields, and to supply potable water to 4.5 million people who never had it, and a thousand other extraordinary and completely unheralded accomplishments (unheralded by us, unheralded by them), the seeing of Iraq through elections and then, after much dithering, the selection of a government, was Iraq War #2.
But Iraq War #3 is a waste. It is crazy to believe that American bases will be permitted to exist -- oh, that doesn't mean the Iraqis won't enjoy watching the Americans build them, and once they are ready to go, then booting them out. And it is crazy to allocate $590 million to a monstrously-large American Embassy -- with all that that implies about an American presence in Iraq for the future, and the way in which the foolish adherents of this "Light-Unto-the-Muslim-Nations" people (the real manipulators of the Iraq War were not "neocons" doing Sharon's bidding, as the Buchanans and Galloways of this world like to think; if anyone was doing the manipulation, it was "good Muslims" who wanted the Americans to overthrow Saddam -- Chalabi, Wolfowitz's girlfriend, and others -- and who can blame them? But it is they whose emphasis on "democracy" and careful avoidance of Islam -- the need to identify the ideology of Islam as the enemy of the Western world, of the entire Infidel world -- that helps prolong our stay in Iraq, and the refusal, still, to articulate the problem correctly.
It is too late to talk openly about Islam in the government. It is not too late, behind closed doors, for officers who still have time to read and think -- Captains and Majors and Colonels to try to educate first themselves, and then their superiors in the army. And it is not too late for Congressional aides -- "as for thinking, our aides will do that for us" -- to do the same, and educate their bosses. And the same is true in the Pentagoo bureaucracy, where the higher you rise, the less time you have to read anything but prepared little packets of information, and unfortunately, no one had really studied Islam before 9/11, and the relevant university departments had over the previous two decades been taken over by apologists for Islam (both Muslim and non-Muslim), with John Esposito, for example, actually being relied on as an "expert" in the Clinton Administration. Good God.
No more of this nonsense, please.
The Thai government will come to its senses, one suspects, quite soon. What about the American government? What about university presidents, who know have a duty to study the theory and practice of Islam, and to monitor their own departments? What about the peoples of the Western world?
While this attack is not justified, one would do well to keep in mind the murder of 78 Muslim protestors in Thai Army custody. But hey I'm sure that that attack had nothing to do with this bomb attack. It must be because those darn Muzi's are out for a world take over. Yes, that must it.
Shukri-
I don't know enough about that specific situation to comment. However, in the big picture, the hotspots of violence in the world today seem to be linked to Muslims having trouble getting along with their neighbors. Why? Could it be that Muslims are acting in such a way as to earn this distrust (the death threats from Muslim extremist groups against European policiticans come to mind).
Also, seeing online maps (as I have) showing the United World of Islam with every country colored green does tend to give us foolish folk the notion that just maybe we should we watching our backs.....
Or reading the comments on Islamic websites and watching how CAIR attempts to silence discussion of Islam makes us a tad nervous...
I know not every Muslim is in that category, but enough are that quite frankly you'll have to earn my trust.
Treehugger
Could it be that their neighbors are fighting, oppressing, killing, murdering and occupying them? Probably not according to the view of many here; simply because they don't care if 40,000 Chechen Muslim children have been murdered in the past decade and Jokhar (Grozny) annihilated by the Russians. That of course could not be the cause of Basayev not particularly caring about the deaths of Russian children. No, it has to be because of the world Islamic take over conspiracy. The terrorism in Iraq has nothing to do with the invasion, the tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians killed, cities bombed, wealth stolen...no it has to be because of the world wide Islamic take over conspiracy.
After awhile, these Islamic take over conspiracy theories get a little tiring. I am Muslim. I fully support the right of the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine and Chechnya to liberate their countries from tyrannical oppressive occupations. This has nothing to do with us planning to take over the world or forcing anybody to convert to Islam. This has everything to do with us wanting to be free from the tyranny of hypocritical egotists who are proud to announce how much good they are doing in the world while killing and warring everywhere they go.
Shukri,
Palestine; Nazi collaborating Muslims fail to annihilate Israel. Then they go out of their way to demonize the Jews and continue the violence in the name of the tyrant general Muhammad(pbuh),If I was running Israel, I would have killed or expelled every last Muslim enemy.
Iraq: Maybe your heroes should have shown the same backbone against Saddam, but I guess tyrants are okay as long as they are Muslims too, just like Saudi Arabia and the Sudan.
Chechnya: Your folks started the whole mess in the first place. If it was all about religion, then Russian would be at war with the rest of the seccession 'stans!
See, we don't care about your primitive backwards culture and religion. You lose all teh wars and have backwards economies and political systems because you are primitive and barbaric. Sure, a lot of crazies and criminals here convert to your religion, while in mental institutions and prison, wonder why!
Shukri-
"...free from tyranny..."?
But Islam is TYRANNY itself. Or have you only read the Cliff Notes version of the Koran (Qur'an)?
Once it gets power, it turns everything into a theocratic despotism, from cradle to grave (usually a LOT of the latter).
I'll take the Bill of Rights over Sharia Law any day. Or any eon.
You're welcome to wallow in 'submission' to the rantings of a pedophile 'prophet' (never read the Bukhari Hadiths and related Sira stuff?)
Chechnya was a mafia-eque "thief-ocracy" for decades, but one that could have finessed its way into a decent place like Ukraine or Latvia or Lithuania, but for the inner corruption of its power-hungry leaders and junior jihadists. Who foolishly pushed the Soviets to over-react, as they are prone to do (they were a Stalinist death camp state only a few years ago, remember?), and the rest is a 'folie de deux'. Kill yours, kill mine, growing worse and worse and worse.
Vendetta maximus. Nihilis rex.
I wish all Muslims would become apostates to this religion of dismal intellectual headlock and joyless resentment against all that is expansive, humane and freethinking.
You're welcome to hate and hate and HATE.
But don't expect us to love you for it.
We'll arm, study and finally laugh you off the planet.
Shukr,
You talk about oppression - ignoring what Islam litterally says, lets just look at a little bit of Islamic "peaceful" history....
638 - Muslims capture Jerusalem. Tell me, what verse in the Koran mentions this city as "holy"??? No doubt you Muslim Peace Lovers were protecting Muslims in Jeruslam, no?
732 - Charles Martel defeats the Moors (aka Muslims) at Tours, France, effectively stopping the "religion of peace" spreading through Western Europe. How the worm has turned thanks to immigration! See Shukr all you Muslims had to do was wait for petro dollars and liberal polititians - no need for war.
950 - Eqyptian based Fatmid Dynasty conquers Jerusalem - trashes all the synagogues and Chruches.
1097 - First Crusade happens under Godfrey de Bouillon. NOTE: THIS OCCURS AFTER THE MUSLIM INVASION OF EUROPE - NOTABLY FRANCE AND THE AREA OF THE OLD YUGOSALVIA! Yes the crusades did some horrible things - but it was total war. Why was that? Who fired the first "shot", back in 732??? Europeans realised the threat was real.
What about the History of Spain???? Just another example of Muslims using their "peace loving" religion to conquer their neighbours??? Why did they conquer Spain??? "Protecting" Muslims no doubt??? Trouble is none existed in Spain before the Muslim invasion??? Queen Isabella had the intelligence to expell every last Muslim (and their allies, the Jews) from Spain. Why??? Because after 800 years of Muslim OCCUPATION she knew what she was up against. Funny how Spain prospered after throwing off her Islamic shackles???
Turkey:- How did it become Muslim?? Back around 70AD it was mostly Christian and Pagan. By the early 1900's it was about 50% infidel, 50% Muslim. Today it's about 90% Muslim. No doubt all the non Muslims converted "peacfully".
In fact I could go on for ever about Muslim agression, it is in the Koran itself showing how Muhammed was nothing more than a thug who never really desired peace but power.
Shukr, I don't expect any of this to sink in, but then again, you follow a man who took a 6 year old wife, and consummated the marraige when she was nine. Is this not child abuse in it's worst form??? Wake up and smell what you are shovelling!
The Zionist idea was thought up by Herzl as a counter to European Christian anti-Semitism. His solution was the establish of Israel in Palestine without any regard for the existing Arabs there. By the time the State of Israel was formed, hundreds of thousands of Arab's had been kicked out of their homes and their land given to Jewish immigrants. Israel was founded on a noble idea (giving Jews a national home which they could avoid anti-Semitism) but was established through unjust and horrendous means. The continued Israeli Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is the cause of terrorism inside the Middle East and out.
Historically, the Jews were given sanctuary by the Muslims where they prospered a great deal. When the Jews and Muslims were kicked and slaughtered out of Spain by the Christians, the Ottoman Empire built Synagogues for the Jews and invited them to settle in complete security within the Empire. It is only after the formation of Israel, built on the ashes of Arab homes and the continued policy of tyranny and occupation of the Israeli government that you start finding anti-Jewish sentiment amongst some Arabs.
Better Muslim tyrants than non-Muslim tyrants with foreign armies trampling all over our land at will and looting our nations wealth.
By resisting Russian imperialism's attempts to subjugate us for the past 300-400 years equals to "starting the mess"? The Chechens have never been beholden to the Russians, not to Czarist Russia a few hundred years ago and definitely not now.
Becoming Muslim
The Jew
Asad
All of them crazies?
How about this person?
I apologize for being unnecessarily harsh in my previous post.
No, here's why:
Child: A person between birth and puberty.
Ayesha, may God be pleased with here had reached the age of puberty when she was nine and hence could be married because she was no longer a child.
Ayesha RA, btw, went on to become the teacher of some of the greatest scholars of Islam to ever have lived. She was also an erudite scholar in her own right. She related that the best time in her life was when she was with the Prophet Muhammad upon whom be prayers and peace. The "child abuse" accusation is completely untenable.
More here (Please take the time to properly read the article)
Thank you.
Shukri,
as mentioned above - the Spanish waged a total war to rid themselves of 800years of MUSLIM OCCUPATION. They also kicked the Jews out of Spain because the Jews fought along side the Muslims. So of course the Turks helped the Jews. Can you really condem the Spainish for defending their homeland???
Should I mention how many other Muslim invasions the Spainish resisted over this period????
Anti semitism only after 1948??? Give me a break!! During the 1st world war ANZAC troops had to be frequently redepolyed in major centres in Israel to stop the rape and looting of Christian and Jewish sites by Lawrence of Arabia's Islamic army. Do you want me to quote official doc's???
Oh no Islamic Antisemitism pre 1948?? Why is the Dome of the Rock on top of the Jewish Temple?? The most holy site for Jews? Nothing to do with dominance perhaps??? I suppose the Jews asked the local Muslims to insult them this way by building their Mosque on top of their temple?
As for Israel, why don't any Roman records record Muslims/ Arabs in Jerusalem when they flattened the place in 70AD??? After the Jews were dispossed of the land who "walked in" and stole it??
What about your "holy book" - "Do not BEFRIEND a Jew or a Christian for they are the people of the Book, Allah guideth not the wrong doers"
Tell me, if you are not a "friend" to somebody what are you?
Also tell all here what happens on Islamic Judgement day. Tell all what happens to every last Jew on Islamic Judgement Day?? Please do?? Do all the Jews live? or with the help of Allah and the returned "prophet" are they killed??? Your entire Koran is anti semetic!
Shukri said
"Ayesha, may God be pleased with here had reached the age of puberty when she was nine and hence could be married because she was no longer a child......The "child abuse" accusation is completely untenable"
This is sick. A nine year old is NOT old enough to understand SEX!!! And you Shukri condone it???
Just because a girl gets a period does not mean she is old enough for intercourse. For one she has not developed enough for child birth. You would think that a "holy man" who "talks with god" would know that this is wrong, that a nine year old is still an innocent child. If he was truely talking to god, then god would surely tell him so. After all Christ, the prophet and saviour said not to harm any child or lead them astray. Having sex with a nine year old IS leading a child astray.
Even the pagan Romans had the "decency" to wait until a girl was 12! (which is still sick).
Is this the Islamic way of treating women like human beings????????? God help the world when you guys take over it!
Compare and contrast, as I was frequently instructed at school.
Mohammed, married (among many others) to a girl who was still young enought to be playing with rag dolls and cuddly toys (a winged horse, if I recall correctly) a girl still so young that her mother and/or nurse had to wash her before she went to Mohammed (its a concept familiar to all mothers, Have you washed behind your ears?), a child whose friends fled from their swing whenever this man approached.
With
Our Saviour Jesus Christ
Who healed the 12 year old daughter of Jairus. Mark 5:21/24 and 5:35/43.
"My little daughter is at death's door" Aged 12, she is a "little girl". Christ said "Talitha Cum" which means, get up my child. CHILD. He told them to give her something to eat.
At 12 she was at home, with loving parents, Mother at home nursing her, while her Father runs for the best of help.
You cannot defend the indefensible.
If they were indeed defending their homeland, there would be no problem. What they did instead was to bring about an inquisition that hunted down, killed or expelled every Muslim, Jew and Christian who disagreed with their ideology.
When Abu Abdullah, the last Muslim monarch of Granada, surrendered to Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand, he made over eighty stipulations, the most important of which was that religious tolerance would continue in his kingdom and that Muslims and Jews would be allowed to practice according to their beliefs. The Christian rulers went on to break every stipulation.
If you notice I did not mention a date. Widespread anti-Jewish sentiment amongst some Arabs only began after the Zionist bid to take over their lands.
There was no temple when the Muslims took Jerusalem. The site was being used as a garbage dump by the Romans.
The Romans? The Caliph Umar ibn al Khattab conquered Jerusalem peacefully and eventually reallowed Jews to settle there after they had been banned from doing so by the Christian Romans due to the Jews being the "killers of Christ". The Muslims do not believe that simply because we do not believe that Jesus, peace be upong him, is dead.
An acquaintance.
All of the people will be brought to life and gathered according to their deeds. They will literally see their entire lives and go through their deeds and actions one by one. All will be judged with justice and entered into Hell or Heaven accordingly.
"Those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in God and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord; no fear shall come upon them nor will they grieve" - Quran 2:62
About Ayesha, may God be pleased with her, please be kind enough to read the link. Thank you.
Aisha
Ah yes, little Aisha, poor lamb safe now in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Do read this attempt at defending the indefensible at muslim-answers. Marvel at examples of Kitman, taqiyya and tu-Quoque all in one handy package that confirms the acceptance of the indefensible.
Shukri: "Those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in God and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord; no fear shall come upon them nor will they grieve" - Quran 2:62
This verse - as you very well know Shukri, is aboragated by latter verses of the Koran which clearly state to kill Jews and Christians. Your Koran can say anything it likes, thats the beauty and insidious nature of it.
Shukri:"There was no temple when the Muslims took Jerusalem. The site was being used as a garbage dump by the Romans"
Maybe so - but the Jews have always worshiped there - and you Muslims know it. Its all about domination - thats why the Dome of The Rock is there on top of the Temple Site. You can't seriously tell me that you Muslims - who are fanatical about cleanliness - built your Mosque on top of a site because it was a garbage dump?!Rubbish! (no pun intended!!) It's the same reason the Muslims in England love to takeover old Church sites. It's all about domination.
Shukri: "All of the people will be brought to life and gathered according to their deeds. They will literally see their entire lives and go through their deeds and actions one by one. All will be judged with justice and entered into Hell or Heaven accordingly"
- oh so we can insult the Creator of the Universe - He who is perfect and almighty, by getting into heaven with our good works?????? That's really us bringing HIM down to our pathetic level. I assume then we don't need Allah either then??? It's all good works. Tell me Shukri, Why did that great Patriarch Abraham, BUY his land in Isreal?? It's clearly stated - so that no one could BOAST that they set Abraham up in life. The same principle applies to heaven. If we get into heaven through our own good works, (which by the way, the Bible, that book you theorectically recognize also, says that our good works are nothing more than dirty rags to God. In fact the Hebrew language describes it as Menstural rags), then we could boast to God - that we don't need him, we got to Heaven on our own steam. That's why Christ had to die for us - there is NOTHING we can do ON OUR own to get into heaven. We are sinful, thats why the world sucks at times.
Shukri:"If they were indeed defending their homeland, there would be no problem"
What do you call an indegineous Spanish person fighting a foreigner in Spain??? An invader???
As for breaking their promise - at least their Bible doesn't say its OK to lie to an infidel, or "curtail your beliefs if ye fear persecution".
They broke their promise to the inavder of their homes, families, and property by their own wisdom, rightly or wrongly. Yes they had their inquisition, and much harm was done. Again they had no justification in the Bible for this. It was done off their own backs. Besides, to allow Muslims in Spain after Isabella took over would be like allowing Nazi's to freely exist in Germany post 1945. You condem the Spanish for defending their homeland at all costs, yet you praise the Chechnyains for their killing at all costs. A bit hypocritical wouldn't you say???
Shukri: The Caliph Umar ibn al Khattab conquered Jerusalem peacefully and eventually reallowed Jews to settle there after they had been banned from doing so by the Christian Romans due to the Jews being the "killers of Christ".
Was this in 950 AD when all the synagogues and chruches were destroyed by a Muslim leader? As for the "Christian" empire, what a load of croc! It was still very much a mixture of pagan beliefs and Christianity. Also like most smart leaders - Muslim AND infidel - the Jewish people usually generate an excellent economy. If you even bothered to look at how many great scientists, merchants, nobel science prize winners are Jewish, compared to the world population - it's staggering. Any smart leader would want to have them.
Again - this is why Jesus wept over the temple mount, you know a prohecy that actually came true. It's why the Jewish Christians fled Jerusalem when the Romans came. Again also, there is no justification in the Bible for Christians persecuting the Jews as 'Christ Killers'.
People are sinners you know. If you can find a verse literally in the Bible stating that Christians can kill Jews as they are "Christ Killers", I will sell my property and give you the proceeds.
Converserly if I had a dollar for every verse in the Koran that advocates war or killing of infidels, like Mohammed, I'd be a very, very rich man.
"After the Jews were dispossed of the land who "walked in" and stole it??"
Shukri: The Romans? The Caliph Umar ibn al Khattab conquered Jerusalem peacefully and eventually reallowed Jews to settle there after they had been banned from doing so by the Christian Romans due to the Jews being the "killers of Christ".
Yes your right - the Romans. But they merly ruled it, they didn't LIVE there in Israel. Other people, notable the Arabs, moved in. The Muslims basically ruled Israel for 1500 years. If they were so accomadating to the Jews, then they would not have trashed the land. Israel was desolate, not because of Roman rule, but because of the Muslim rule. The Ottaman tree tax for one point desolated the land. Funny how when the Jews go back to Israel it blossoms.
Shukri:The Muslims do not believe that simply because we do not believe that Jesus, peace be upong him, is dead.
Good for you! Neither do the Christians believe that Jesus is dead. He has risen after paying the price for our sin!
"Tell me, if you are not a "friend" to somebody what are you?
Shukri: "An acquaintance"
Now you are playing with semantics. So the Pakastani's, Saudis, Egyptians etc are all lying when they tell us that they are our allies, our friends?
I'm not sure how you view Kitman. Taqiyya, however, is a form of hypocrisy and the sincere Muslim believers usually did not lie when their life was threatened. How could they when the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him has informed us that the highest rank of martyr is the one who speaks the truth to a tyrant and is killed because of it.
As for Ayesha's marriage. It's not our problem but your problem because you are viewing it through the rose colored glasses of modern Western culture.
I know no such thing. Instead of making pronouncements, can you please cite sources? Provide me with a source where a legitimate Muslim scholar says (1) The verse is abrogated and (2) That we have to kill Christians and Jews(???!)
It was built there because this is where we believe that Muhammad peace be upon him ascended to heaven in a miraculous night journey.
In Islam, no one enters heaven by his good works alone since their good works are hardly sufficient to even cover the blessings that God has given them. Rather it is through God's mercy that one enters heaven.
It doesn't say that in the Quran either so I must assume that you are talking about a different text.
Actually, Isabella and Co. were the Nazi's. They kicked out all the Muslims and Jews and even fellow Christians who disagreed with their doctrine. I am unable to see why any moral person would defend them.
The Chechens have been resisting brutal Russian tyrants for centuries. In Spain, it was Isabella and Co. who were the tyrants. Spain under Islam was one of the world's greatest civilizations until the Catholics took over. The National Geographic described the event as "The sun set in the West".
Source please?
That may be so, but unquestionably in previous times, Jews have been viewed as Christ-killers by a large number of Christians.
Shukri
May I ask why, you pose questions and when given an answer, you just pose a new question? Are you completely incapable of responding? Do you think we will forget you inability to answer? Does posing a new question, somehow answer the old question?
Shukri,
You want sources – OK, easy done.
But lets clear up a few facts first.
1. You approve of sex with 9 year olds – but so long as they’ve had their period. You say I as a “Westener cannot understand it”. Too right, I know its wrong. And you would think that a prophet who speaks directly with the almighty, would have god tem him this is wrong. After all, Jesus refered to 12yo girls as just that – girls, childeren. So either Mohammed is wrong, or Jesus is wrong. So who’s right and wrong?? Both spoke to god????
2. Queen Isabella was Spanish. Nazism didn’t exit then. They were Spanish DEFENDING their homeland against invaders. As for the “Sun setting in West” when the Spanish RETOOK their own land – get real. The Spanish went on to become the greatest world power, and it was little wonder with the Muslims violently knocking on their door regularly. Maybe she read the Koran and saw what she was up against, they probably had some idea after 800 YEARS OF OCCUPATION.
3. Ah the peaceful Koran. You say it is so. If latter verses do not abborgate earlier verses, then Shukri, you have a real problem. Why? Because the few peaceful verses found in the earlier Sura’s are then contradicted by:-
a) Believers! Retaliation is decreed for you in bloodshed (2:178)
b) Fight for the sake of god those who fight against you, but do not attack them first……slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you (2:190-191)
c) Fight against them until idolatry is no more and god’s religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers (2:193; 8:39)
d) Why have the Dar al Islam and Dar al Harb if Islam is so “peaceful”??
e) “Strike off their heads. Strike off their finger tips!….because they defied god and his Apostle” (8:12-13) Turkish “Peace lovers” used this verse when murdering 1 million Armenian Christians in eastern Turkey in the early 1900’s.
f) “make war on them (the infidels) until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme” (8:40)
g) “Prophet! Rouse the faithful to arms. If there are twenty steadfast men among you they shall vanquish two-hundred; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers…. A prophet may not take captives until he has fought and triumphed in the land” (8:65, 68)
h) “Do not befriend (hypocrites) until they have fled their homes in the cause of god” 4:89
i) ‘Seize them and put them to death wherever you find them (4:89)
j) ‘believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you’ (9:123)
k) When you meet the unbelievers on the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly (47:4)
l) “Fighting is obligatory for you, much you dislike it” 2:216
m) As for “There shall be no compulsion in religion”, which Mohammed said when he was militarily weak, not that that matters for such a man of peace, are abrogated by 109 other verses in the Koran.
n) ‘When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them; besiege them; and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repend and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way (9:5)
o) As for SEX with a NINE year old, Mohammed himself said, “If you doubt what We have revealed to you, ask those who have read the scriptures (Jews and Christians) before you” (10:94). Hmmmmm creates the problem where Jesus is recorded as dealing with childeren – including 12 year olds (that’s 3 more years than nine)
p) But wait there’s more….. in verse 4 he says “You to whom the Scriptures were given! Believe in that which we have revealed, confirming your own Scriptures, before We obliterate your faces and turn them backwards, or lay our curse on you” (4:47)
q) “test the faithful and annihilate the infidels” 3:141
r) “seek out the enemy relentlessly” 4:104
s) “fight in the cause of god” 4:74
t) “god has promised you rich booty and has given you this with all promptness……and God knows of other spoils which you have not yet taken” 48:20-21 Now there’s an incentive plan for any warrior!!!:
u) “The spoils belong to god and the apostle” 8:1
v) “know that one fifth of our spoils shall belong to god” 8:41
w) Make war upon such of those to whom the Scripture have been given as believe not in god, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which god and his apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of truth, until THEY PAY TRIBUTE out of hand, and they are humbled. The Jews say, Ezra (Ozair) is a son of god; and the Christians say, ‘The Messiah is a son of God’. Such the sayings in their mouths! They resemble the saying of Infidels of old! God do battle with them! How they are misguided! (9:29-30)
For those reading the charming verses above, please note, the Koran is not like the Bible, where you can quote a verse, and go to any old translation and find it. You may have to read a number of paragraphs either side to find the verses above, depending on the translation.
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH – should I go on??? If one verse doesn't abborgate another, then your Koran is indeed a VERY VERY confused book. It contradicts itself, and the Bible. Or should I start on the many volumes of the Hadith?????? Maybe the scholars I have met from Iran and Pakistan, who were high up in the powers that be in those countries, who studied this crap for most of their life are liars when they say this stuff is to be taken at face value?? That earlier verses are abborgated by latter verses? These guys we accepted Islamic experts. Can I give their name? No! they now have an Islamic death sentence upon them (maybe its just a "spiritual" death sentence?, just like Rushdie has). But I will dig up current Islamic scholars just to keep you happy.
These verses in the Koran show Mohammed’s life, something all good Muslims are supposed to follow??? So don’t take offence when I say that Osama Bin Laden is a VERY GOOD MUSLIM, and you Sukri, are either just lying to an infidel to further Islam (which is OK in your book), or you are actually a bad Muslim. (that said, I respect you for actually believing in a creator, something many atheists can't fathom despite the evidence)
Interesting that you mention Spain under Islamic rule being very pluralistic. Yes it was, you do get liberal Muslims you know. In fact legend has it that the ruler of Spain cried like a baby when he was kicked out, his mother replied
“don’t cry like a girl, for which you weren’t willing to defend like a man”
Oh and if the Muslims DIDN’T invade Israel, or the Balkans, how the hell did they get into Europe??? What was Charles Martel fighting in 732???? A Jewish conspiracy perhaps? Maybe he wasn’t fighting anyone, it was just a “spiritual” battle.
Oh, and for the dude who trashed Israel in 950. As mentioned before it was the Fatmid Dynasty of Egypt. Go look it up for yourself.
So you rely solely on god’s mercy to get into heaven? So your telling me Hitler could get in if god is “merciful” on him? I mean if he finished his “job” with the Jews, there would have been no Israel in modern times just as inferred in the Bible in numerous places (like Ezekiel).
You want sources:-
1996 Harvard Professor Samuel P Huntington released findings that Muslims were involved in more intergroup and inter civilization violence & wars than anu other group
Please show me the verse in the Koran where you get into heaven - solely on gods mercy.
While you're at it, also show the verses in the Koran which command people to love one another, as god has loved us. Oh and the verse which describes what love actually is.
"It was built there because this is where we believe that Muhammad peace be upon him ascended to heaven in a miraculous night journey".
He ascended to heaven from a rubbish tip? Show me in the Koran where it mentions Jerusalem.
...there is no justification in the Bible for Christians persecuting the Jews as 'Christ Killers'.
"That may be so, but unquestionably in previous times, Jews have been viewed as Christ-killers by a large number of Christians"
Yes indeed - it shows what happens when people don't read the Bible. It also shows we are a pack of sinners.
Sura 2:256 - no complusion in religion. But in 9:5 Muslims are commanded to kill idol worshippers if they don't convert. 9:29 Muslims are commanded to fight Christians and Jews, unless they accept the teachings of Mohammed or are utterly subdued and pay Jizya - the mafia like "protection tax". It all contradicts itself.