The Fallacy of Extremism In Any Religion Or Culture Watch?

Thank You, Robert. And may I also add, groups like 'christian' reconstruction, don't stand a chance in Hell of running the US, let alone reach anywhere near the level of Jihad.

Something I found last night:

We are Raising History Illiterates:
http://www.hillsdale.edu/imprimis/

Is it any wonder I keep pushing for people to study history?

That guy plays a hell of a set up guy for your punch lines.To bad none of this is funny.

Gary - We are raising "History Illiterates" for a reason. It is easier to impose a leftist or an Islamist ideology on those that have no notion of history. It is easier to gloss over the excesses and outrages of Islam and Socialism on those that don't know the history of these movements.

Those that control knowledge of the past control the present and the future. This is a paraphrase -- Ironically I can't remember to whom to attribute this concept.

You want to watch extremist Christians? Well, Mother Teresa is dead, but her work lives on.
Albert Schweitzer seems to have gone out of fashion, but he was once well known- you would find references to him in pop culture- Dean Martin, the Ed Sullivan show, that sort of thing. For that matter, even Fr. Damien the Leper priest was still well known.

Is this all they have to counter with? Eric Rudolph?

Awad used the same strategy when he said we shouldn't label terrorism as "Islamic" terrorism.

It's not the Girl Scouts, it's Muslims.

It's not 4H, it's Muslims.

It's not senior citizens, it Muslims.

It's not the volunteers at the Hospital, it's Muslims.

It's not the paper boy, it's Muslims.

These toads should stop trying to insult our intelligence.

Most of all, the murder and mayhem favored by Islam is not the LEGALLY SANCTIONED, MORAL OBLIGATION of other religions, as it is in Islam, where the Koran is THE LAW.

Whenever an individual interprets his religious "feelings" to mean that he should run around violating rights, he is chased down, arrested, tried, and if convicted, punished.

Islam is philosophically invalid, and must rely solely on the kind of "Well, other people do it too" as a defense for their actions.

They behave like two-year-olds, and think, at best, like five-year-olds.

As far as I know, Eric Rudolph, although very dangerous, was a lone wolf. If I remember correctly, he was caught as he was eating from a garbage can near a restaurant. Mohammed Atta and his murderous cronies were well-funded, from supporters in and out of the US. I also know that Islamists imply that Terry Nichols and Timothy McVey were part of some Christian conspiracy as they did their evil deed in Oklahoma City. Again, that is pointing a wrong finger in order to justify jihad, like "everybody does it." The OK bombers both hated the US government and may very well have had help from some fellow travellers-in-hate from Iraq who were living in the US. A book has been written about their possible Islamic connection, with plenty of strong evidence in that direction.

Gary - We are raising "History Illiterates" for a reason. It is easier to impose a leftist or an Islamist ideology on those that have no notion of history. It is easier to gloss over the excesses and outrages of Islam and Socialism on those that don't know the history of these movements.

Those that control knowledge of the past control the present and the future. This is a paraphrase -- Ironically I can't remember to whom to attribute this concept.

Posted by: epg at April 13, 2005 09:54 AM

Three cheers, epg! Yup, keep 'em ignorant, then fill those empty vessels with your own brand of garbage! Don't give them the intellectual means to see what's going on, and then you won't have problems like the Boston Tea Party, the American Revolution, the Constitution, and objective law.

I think the guy you're referring to is Spanish-born American philosopher George Santayana, whose words are inscribed over the entrance to the Archives in D.C. I can't remember myself exactly how he phrased it, but it ran something like "Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it."

I thought that his statement was particularly appropriate for the people of Spain after they caved to the Madrid terror attack, but since they had been filled with the same nihilistic garbage that the Left is trying to fill our kids with, they just didn't "get it," despite their uncomfortable experience with Islam.

As just one more attempt to deprive our kids of the ability to think was the decision, years ago, to roll the extremely important subjects of history, civics, and geography into a single wishy-washy, diluted version of all three subjects and call the "new, improved" subject "social studies."

People, we have to do an end-run around the Nihilists' educational plan for our kids before it's too late.

It's the Muslim's turn now.

If this is the 'moderate Muslim' we've been looking for, it wasn't worth the wait.

However, Islam will be corrected by the Muslims using Islam - not re-defined by other. The misuse of the foundation of Jihad in Islam is being addressed and will be corrected throughout the Muslim world with Allah's help and the beauty of Islam will shine again to benefit the world.

So long as islam keeps seeking to redefine our lives, so too must we redefine, as 'others', islam.

Geoff

"And as Islam does have the solution to all the problems of society and mankind..."

-- from the Muslim correspondent quoted above.

It is only when Muslims themselves have to confront their own politicial, economic, social, and intellectual failurs, instead of putting the blame, as was done the other day in yet another report on the problems in the Arab world, on "America and Israel," so that the bland statement above -- that "Islam does have the solution to all the problems of society and mankind" -- can be seen as the comical remark it is.

The Western world should not continue to prop up Muslm regimes. The jizyah of yore was a tax on Infidels that they had to pay -- or else. The foreign aid that the United States and Europe continue to pour into Muslm countries, and that they seem terrified of cutting back on, much less cutting off altogether, is akin to jizyah. Infidels feel that they "have" to support Egypt, "have" to support Jordan, "have" to support the "Palestinians" in whatever guise they now present themselves, "have" to bribe Pakistan, the supporter of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, the font of all nuclear proliferation, a world center of terrorism, into helping most modestly to try to find Al Qaeda members in Pakistan. No, we do not have to bribe Pakistan but to read Pakistan the Riot Act, and demand that A. Q. Khan be interviewed, if we cannot demand his being punished or even executed, if he was, as Musharraf maintains, a rogue actor (he was, in fact, working hand-in-glove with members of the Pakistani ruling elite). We do not have to support every Arab or Muslim state that forgot to be endowed with oil deposits, as if the world owed them a living. We do not have to open our borders to relieve the Arab and Muslmi states, which continue to overbreed, in many cases as a deliberate political act (one more soldier in the Army of Allah, or in some grim cases, one more potential shahid), of their own ghastly population problem. Why should we? We do not have to permit their rulers access to Harley Street or the Sloan-Kettering or the Mass. General. We do not have to let the children of Al-Jazeera executives, as one comlacently says in a recent movie about the propaganda channel, come to America to "embrac et he American dream and avoid the Arab nightmare" when those same executives are helping whip up the murder of American soldiers now in Iraq for the sole purpose of helping, a bit, to spread (vainly, one suspects) that "American dream."

We cannot avoid, for now, buying oil and gas from Arab and Muslim states. But everything should be done to diminish the revenues of Muslim states from what, after all, is not the result of hard work but only of an accident of geology. That accident of geology has helped them to promote Da'wa all over the Western world. It has helped disguise the backwardness, the full awfulness, of Muslim societies -- which can be seen, in the pure state, in the Sudan, or in the Islamic Republic of Iran, or Saudi Arabia, though in the last, the oil wealth offers the veneer -- the accoutrements of civilization -- but not civilizaton itself.

By the way, in addition to tracking Islamist extremist threats on my main web site (unitedstatesaction.com and newsgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unitedstatesaction/), I *do* have web sites tracking Christian Identity and other extremist groups for those who are concerned about other extremists.

I mention it only since the topic is brought up here.

All of the sites are linked back to overall anti-terrorist preparedness, information, and education site at:
http://www.unitedstatesaction.com

Anarchist / Communist Extremist Watch:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anarchist-terror/

Racist / Nazi / "Christian Identity" Extremist Watch:
http://www.againstnazi.com/
and News Group at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/againstnazi/

Extremist and Terrorist Threats in Individual Countries:
http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/world-war.htm

Extremists in Various Parts of USA and Major Cities
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/northeast-terror/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nyc-terror/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dc-terror/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boston-terror/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chicago-terror/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/detroit-terror/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southern-terror/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/western-terror/

My first thought was Orwell and 1984, and surprise surprise:

"Who controls the past, ran the party slogan, controls the future: Who controls the present, controls the past"

Chapter 3.

"I did not see any reference to the recent capture of Eric Randolph - the domestic terrorist who has admitted to the Atlanta Olympics bombing..."

More Islamic spin-doctoring, propaganda and scope-distortion, taking a one-off event and trying to create some kind of they-do-it-do arguement. Islam is arrogant and will not criticize itself whatsoever.

"But I do not have confidence in the approach that you are taking simply because it appears to perpetuate..."

"However, Islam will be corrected by..."

The approach that Robert Spencer is correctly taking is to first, be willing to criticize Islam. Something that Muslims WILL NOT ALLOW.

"It's the Muslim's turn now."

More arrogance.

There is no honesty in Islam, only arrogance.

"...not only the correction of extremist Muslims, but also correction of extremist Jews, Christians, Hindus and other groups..."

Yes, 'other groups' police themselves. Look at the laws in the United States, and the recent headline you just referred to. We have law AND ORDER. Does Islam? No. Every Islamic country on the face of the earth is a disaster and threat to peace.

Let's keep it in proper scope and perspective where the major threat lies.

"Adherents of militant Islam account for some 15-20 percent of the Muslim world..."

www.meforum.org/article/168

I geuss he didnt care to read how the israeli governement is disarming the settlers before the pullout, something abass is unwilling to do.

It reminds me of the old gag on the simpsons, where a character would create a distraction and next thing you hear a car screeching away.

We are raising "History Illiterates" for a reason. It is easier to impose a leftist or an Islamist ideology on those that have no notion of history. It is easier to gloss over the excesses and outrages of Islam and Socialism on those that don't know the history of these movements.

You are such a cur for trying to drag the left-right idealogy into this.

Worse than ignoring history it rewriting it, like the Mobots do (we were dragged into WW One) and the right-wing, conservative christians (the slaves were paid wages, the Civil War was about states' rights, the founding fathers wanted God's Law in the Constitution, etc.)

epg, in the words of your illustrious vice-leader, "Go Cheney Yourself."

"Christianity is no better than Islam"

That is the main point - this particular Muslim is making.

Here is the one and only challenge for ALL Muslims who use the same old argument:

Give JUST ONE Scripture from the New Testament that promotes humans to resort to violence.

Just One!

It can not be done! because there aren't any.

Here are the teachings for ALL of mankind - spoken on a level that a child can understand - from the New Testament:

Mat 5:44 I [Jesus] say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good.

Rom 13:9 Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 5:44 Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Rom 10:12 There is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Here are the commands from the Koran - commands from allah that this particular Muslim understand to be promoting peace:

004.101 When ye travel through the earth , there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.

004.092 Never should a believer kill a believer [But the 'unbelievers' - they are commanded to slay. That includes ALL who believe in the Son of God} 009.030 ]

009.005 fight and slay the Pagans ''''wherever'''' ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war.

008.067 It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war [slay them] until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. {{{Treason - in all non-Muslim nations] Theft - according the Lord of the Bible]

002.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing [war] which is good for you and that ye love a thing [peace] which is bad for you?

009.123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you.

047.004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in fight [jihad], smite at their necks. [Behead them!]

Now, compare the two teachings [be your own judge]

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

For all of the arguments that Muslims give in defense of Islam - the allah of the Koran still Trunps them ALL.... and he calls ALL 'moderate' Muslims - Liars.

004.095 Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home. But those who strive and fight hath He distinguished above those who sit at home by a special reward.

009.039 Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.

004.104 And slacken not in following up the enemy: If ye are suffering hardships, they are suffering similar hardships.

Asking all 'Moderate' Muslims --- Is that the kind of god you want to be with forever?

Are you truly able to cut a human's head off - just because allah told you to?

Until you give an answer to that - there is no justifyable argument from you.

If you agree with that command - then there is no reasoning between you and the others who are sickened just by the thought of it.

Truely amazing,I've lost count of the number
of Muslims that have made public statements promoting Islam as a faith that has "Slaughtered" less people than other faiths.

BTW,during the "Holy" month of Ramadan there is far more beheadings and suicide bombings in Iraq by self-professed "True" muslims,as for Christmas,the worse that I've seen is the hoodlums
at malls that steal presents from cars in the parking lot while the owners are still buying gifts in the stores.

Hooper has the nerve to exploit the Oklahoma
bombing as a "Christian terrorist" act by a
home grown non-Muslim.
McViegh has been linked to the earlier WTC bombing
plot by Al-Qaeda related Muslims and his Philipino
connection to terrorists goes back to when he served in the Gulf war and was in Saudi Arabia.

www.jaynadavis.com is the site to see the truth
and maybe Dougie hooper could be mailed a copy to open his eyes to this religion of Peace.

Hmmm, let's see...

John 3:36(Jesus speaking)

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Luke 19:27(Jesus speaking)

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

Gal 1:9

"As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

"Psa 149:5-9

Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;
To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD."

Of course, this is what St. Paul has to say about my people, the Jews:

1 Thess 2:14-15

"For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:"

Titus 1:10-16

"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision(Jews):
Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

Of course, Christians have always historically been the murderers of Jews. Why am I not surprised? Burn in hell, "Saint" Paul.

Interestingly enough, there are various version of the Qur'an around that sound much different.

For example, mine says:

"9:5 When the four Sacred Months are over and if the idolaters are still aggressing, neither becoming law-abiding citizens of the State, nor emigrating, subdue them wherever you find them, take them captive, and besiege them, and ambush them. But if they repent from aggression, and help in the consolidation of the Divine System and in setting up the Just Economic Order of Zakat, then leave them free. Verily, God is Forgiving Merciful."

or

"8:67 It is beyond the dignity of a prophet that he may hold any captives, except temporarily, during warfare. They must be freed at the conclusion of hostilities by way of kindness, for ransom, or by exchange of prisoners of war, and there is no other option to keep them (47:4). You may desire the fleeting gains of this world, but Allah desires for you the good of Eternal Achievement, the life to come. Allah is Mighty, Wise."

The same message, just more verbose? Perhaps.

The bottom line is that there are words in Al Qur'an that can be used to incite violence.

It is important to recognize this if us Muslims are to do anything about it.

However, until God speaks to me personally and commands me to behead someone, I wouldn't ever think of doing something so heinous. Even if he did I would shrug it off, and think I was possibly hallucinating.

Until then, I do not take Al Qur'an literally, especially since there is much in there I'm yet trying to fully understand.

The fact remains for me is that there is many attractive aspects of the religion I grew up with that I am fond of and wish to keep, while nixing the unattractive, archaic, and downright dumb.

If this doesn't make me a "true Muslim" or whatever, I don't care. If it makes me a "half-Muslim" a "Muslim-lite" a "infidel Muslim" I also don't care.

I'm a "Me" Muslim. That's all the matters to me. If the Muslims screaming "jihad" think I'm a Munifiq for this, then...well...let them do their worst.

*Reads Lollercopter* Is giaour recruiting?

Racist / Nazi / "Christian Identity" Extremist Watch: http://www.againstnazi.com/
Posted by: jeffreyimm

Terminology: The term "Christian Identity" has two distinct meanings: Racist, Christian-based faith groups: A number of small, extremely conservative Fundamentalist Christian denominations which have accepted Anglo-Israelism, and grafted it to racist, sexist, anti-communist and homophobic beliefs. They view the Jewish people as descendants of Satan. Followers tend to be involved in political movements opposing gun control, equal rights to gays and lesbians, and militia movements.

So do these “Christian” groups that follow Jesus, ” King of the Jews” view him as coming from Satan? What a mixed up bunch of imbeciles. Notice that only non-Christians would include these racist groups in the “Christian” category. Either they have no clue what scripture teaches and make statements like this out of complete and utter ignorance or they have an anti-Christian agenda. In light of what Jesus taught, these people are not Christians, because they simply do not follow Christ.

I am beginning to wonder if this is Jihadwatch or Hate Christianwatch.

As far as I know, Eric Rudolph, although very dangerous, was a lone wolf. If I remember correctly, he was caught as he was eating from a garbage can near a restaurant. Mohammed Atta and his murderous cronies were well-funded, from supporters in and out of the US. I also know that Islamists imply that Terry Nichols and Timothy McVey were part of some Christian conspiracy as they did their evil deed in Oklahoma City. Again, that is pointing a wrong finger in order to justify jihad, like "everybody does it." The OK bombers both hated the US government and may very well have had help from some fellow travellers-in-hate from Iraq who were living in the US. A book has been written about their possible Islamic connection, with plenty of strong evidence in that direction.

Posted by: maryrose at April 13, 2005 10:26 AM

Gold Star for you today!!

and that as you say is 2 people not a movement?? and one has paid with his life the other will be in Jail for the rest of his life WHAT ABOUT THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND THEIR SUPPORTERS???

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL THEIR SUPPORTERS AMEN

Carolyn2~ Let's continue to push for something to be done about the Jihadists. Blowups like this will come and go. Whether it is true or not, I feel as tho this were mostly my fault...

Can't help it that we Exist, giaour. With centuries more of us to come.

Ramaz, Christians believe that Jews are our elder brothers. We do not hate them. "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Gary, It is not your fault that some here can't see past their hatred. I have never seen such raw hatred for Christians outside of the posts at Democratic Underground. Talk about needing tin-foil hats! OOOH we're gonna take over the world and stone people...that is beyond ridiculous.

Why can't Muslim apologists stick to the point of the current threat to humanity?

Instead of trying to distract from the point that fredom is fighting against tyranny, by rasing up the strawmen of neo-nazis or christian fundamentalists or zionists, why can't these guys just start by recognizing the present day SERIOUS crop of crazies?

Most of whom, from Jakarta to Jiddah, Damascus to the Casbah, turn out to be followers of the Koran?

The Christians, until they came up against the American Bill of Rights and calmed down, were just as bad as the current Muslim tyrannical madmen. (SEE: The Inquisition.)

The Hebrews, from the earliest Old Testament slaughter of the Canaanites (and everybody else who got in their way) and all the way up to the point where the Romans drove them into 1900 year exile, were just as bad as the present-day Muslim terrorists. (SEE: The Pentatuch.)

God said to them: kill, kill, kill.

And they did, did, did.

Anyone without historical blinders on can't deny it.

But, until we invent Time Machines, the present-day Muslim "excusers" need to simply be told to come up to the moment we live in.

Let's talk about NOW!

Neo-Nazis are insignificant cartoonish cretins, festering in a bizarre 1890's-ish anti-Semitism that must give focus to otherwise meaningless lives.

And the rare David Koresh judeo-christian nutcases are little boils on the bottom of the Bible.

But jihadis have ten thousand websites.

They set off bombs daily, fill mosques by the millions- their imams, mullahs and ayatollahs spewing hatred of everything 'infidel' and 'unclean', and are proselytizing through a world-encircling network of Muslim schools and 'brotherhoods'. (Sisters are allowed to blow themselves up, once in a while, but NEVER speak.)

The threat from nazis or christian fundamentalists is like gnats at a picnic- spoiling the potato salad with their grey little bodies, at worst.

WHILE- the threat from Islamicists is like a herd of starved grizzlies descending on the party.

Intent on eating the picnickers.

Deadly, powerful, numerous, determined, well-armed, savage, and merciless.

Like Hitler's use of 'the threat of the jews' to absolve the madness and murderousness of his own vicious tyranny, the current Islamicist excusers point to another scapegoat -'the sins of the judeo-christian past'- to ignore or justify their own homicidal and blood-soaked, extremist jihadists.

It won't flush, fellahs.

The sound of bombs and the sights of held-up heads keep us from falling either back to sleep, -or for your fatuous flim-flam.

lollercopter:

Things that make you say "Hmmmmmmmmm".

Not sure what your knowledge is for understanding the Torah,but the first enemies of
God's children (Jews) were the Gentiles since there were no other group on Earth to be a minority. Non-Jews were the people that turned away from Yaweh and lost their moral compass to respect God's creations and live in peace,even when Jesus DID make overt claims of punishment
for being separated from God by sin,he was alive as a human and subject to the same wrath if he wasn't obedient on his journey to the cross.

Any attack on Christians will not make me absorb the hate that these people are trying transfer so it gets handed to the next generation and continues the cycle of violence as we see
in Palestine.
Stalin,Mao,Hitler,Lenin and Pol Pot weren't Christians and they also didn't focus on just a religion that they wanted extinguished from their plan for the Earth.

Mr. Spencer: It sounds as if your interlocutor might be the sort of person who, if treated charitably and judiciously, might be more an ally than an enemy. I for one agree with him that people like Christian Identity are bad news (and I don't even like Christian Reconstructionism either--it's a "let's do unto them as they've been doing unto us" bunch from the get go). Yet it is indeed worth pointing out that the terrorists have a far greater resonance among the devout Muslims than among the devout Christians. Indeed, the more common reaction of the needled Christian fundamentalist conscience ("You're not doing enough for Jesus!") is to aid or work in a rescue mission, fund a home for unwed mothers, or work in a hospice.

Lollercopter: I commend you on your knowledge of the New Testament; but you forget a very large part, and why Beth quoted what she did. We're dealing with a Saviour who rose from the dead; so we are indeed convinced that heaven or hell wait on the other side of death. But, I think I can speak fairly for the overwhelmingly majority of Christian fundamentalists when I say that our orders re those who are heading for Hell is to point them in the other direction, not hurry them on their way to Hell. Further, we have a number of commands to leave such dreadful judgements to God, who will hear all of our cases soon enough.

Perhaps, Lollercopter, you envy us Christians in our belief in Hell because you're the sort who would really like to rush the people you don't like on their way there?

Bar: I think you've stumbled on why one 19th century wag wrote:

How odd of God to choose the Jews; but odder still are those who choose the Jewish God and hate the Jews.

Posted by lollercopter:

Luke 19:27(Jesus speaking)

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

lollercopter left out the most important part of those Scriptures:

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels [NOT HUMANS] shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just

There is NOT ONE SINGLE Scripture in the nEw Testament where humans are aloud to hurt each other.

That Judgment belongs to God.

But -- according to the Koran - Muslims have the right to behead the 'unbelievers'

and now - the world watches - as true servers of allah get ready to vicously behead another terrified victim

That's the difference between Christianity and Islam.... on a level that a child can understand.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. [second death] There was a death that reigned already} Rom 5:14

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Jud 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Enoch 1:9 Behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones to execute judgment upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly:

And to convict all flesh of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

Enoch 5:4 Ye have not been steadfast, nor done the commandments of the Lord, But ye have turned away and spoken proud and hard words with your impure mouths against His greatness. Oh, ye hard-hearted, ye shall find no peace.

Jud 1:10 These speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain

Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother.

And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

The Koran sends out murderers:

009.005 fight and slay the Pagans ''''wherever'''' ye find them

047.004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in fight [jihad], smite at their necks. [Behead them!]

BigSleep -

You carry on about how the Canninites were slaughtered - every last man woman and child were to be slaughtered. Yes the Jews were commanded to do this.

But read your Bible. Abraham and Issac bought the land first, and had a peace treaty with the other natives of the land (Hittites and Cannanites). The Jews were then attacked over issues of wells (see Gen) that the Jews had dug. Does this justify the later slaughter?

As a Christian I often westled with it. Why? Its genocide. However as I learnt to take the Bible more literally I could see why. You and others will write me off as a crac pot - but I suggest you study some of the weird verses in the Bible regarding the Nephalim, and the meaning of those words. Study the verses of the Sons of God and the Daughters of Men, and the offspring that they had (similar stories/ledgends exist in every other culture of "star people marrying "earth people" - eg the Greeks & hercules).

The first few centuries of the church took these verses literally. Rightly so, how else to you explain the massive Goliath who spooked the entire Israeli army? The reason for the flood was the Nephalim, I mean we humans are just as sinful now as then. Have a look at Chuck Misslers stuff on this, or Answers in Genesis stuff. Then you will understand why God gave these commands. I would also urge you to have at Quantum Physics - and realise that there is more out their than just our dimensions of height, width, breath and time, just as the Bible has always stated.

Besides - me taking the Bible literally or how whacky you think I am for believing so - I make the same challenge I do to you, that I do to that pedophile supporting Shukri,

-find me ONE VERSE in the Bible that commands ME to KILL UNBELIEVERS in order to make them believe.

One last thing - the Jews were only agressors in the Bible when they were taking back the land that they were removed from in the first place. God never commanded the Hebrews to create an Empire of the Middle East or the entire world. So I'm not to worried about the Jews taking my homeland.

And if you're a Yank - just remember if it wasn't for the right wing, gun totting fundamentalist Christians revolting against the Pom's, you'd be having Charles and his tart, Camilla, as your next head of state.

3dtimelucky: As another Bible-believer, I note this: Abraham was forbidden to inherit the land of Canaan because "the sin of the Amorite is not yet full" (Gn. 15). In Numbers and Deuteronomy, Israel is also warned that if it goes the way ofthe Canaanites, God's wrath will fall on them. The OT makes it clear that Israel rebelled, and hence we have the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions, the disappearance of the northern tribes, and the 70 year exile of Juda in Babylon.

Well, if Edmund Burke, the Evangelical Party in the Kirk of Scotland, and similar Brits had won the policy debates back in the 18th century, and we Yanks ended up celebrating Governor-General rather than Pres. Washington, maybe the British monarchy would've been well straightened out long before Victoria married Albert, we'd have been rid of the South's "peculiar institution" a lot earlier and at much less cost, and we'd be all one big, happy, pious, North Atlantic Anglophone community; while folks like Napoleon and Hitler wouldn't have ever dared raised their heads. And, had we had Charles Windsor as our king, we'd probably spend more time worrying about who would be PM along with everyone else. Yet it didn't happen; so the things above are all moot.

Apparently lollercopter is about 11 years old and does not understand english words such as scope, context, and intent.

Apparently lollercopter is a very violent person because lollercopter said and I quote

"bring hither, and slay them before me."

Oh, you were just quoting someone else?

So was Jesus.

However, the Quran records "Muhammad" DIRECTLY commanding violence.

Get a clue.

Your conscience will judge you and no one else will need to.

What's with that Luke reference? That's a parable. Jesus isn't telling anyone to kill anyone.

Geoff

Kepha:
"3dtimelucky: As another Bible-believer, I note this: Abraham was forbidden to inherit the land of Canaan because "the sin of the Amorite is not yet full" (Gn. 15). In Numbers and Deuteronomy, Israel is also warned that if it goes the way ofthe Canaanites, God's wrath will fall on them. The OT makes it clear that Israel rebelled, and hence we have the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions, the disappearance of the northern tribes, and the 70 year exile of Juda in Babylon."

Well said Kepha, and I agree.

"Well, if Edmund Burke, the Evangelical Party in the Kirk of Scotland, and similar Brits had won the policy debates back in the 18th century, and we Yanks ended up celebrating Governor-General rather than Pres. Washington, maybe the British monarchy would've been well straightened out long before Victoria married Albert, we'd have been rid of the South's "peculiar institution" a lot earlier and at much less cost, and we'd be all one big, happy, pious, North Atlantic Anglophone community"

Thats debatable - the Poms brought a lot of good to my commonwealth country, but frequently used us as cannon fodder.

"Yet it didn't happen; so the things above are all moot"

Yes they are moot. My point that I was trying to make was that it was frequently Christian people within the USA who have stood up for, and had the guts to debate, what is right, be it domestically or internationally. And if it wern't for that revolution, my country (not the US)wouldn't be what it is today.

Muslim Religious Leader
Ali al-Timimi
Presently being charged with Terrorist promotion... or pushing the envelope.

Friday, 4/15/5, 5:30 PM News, NBC.

Statements of "Ali al-Timimi's" past involvement with recruiting area youth for Terrorist Training overseas. Several of the young men having since been charged as terrorists.

The most troubling statement, quoted by "Ali al-Timimi", was in an article responding to the tragic Shuttle "Discovery" explosion. He had expressed great joy that God was thereby venting his Displeasure for the United States in providing such an ominous and visible disaster. It is difficult to believe that similar statements can be made by apparently educated and intelligent people. True religion doesn't blind itself to reason, but in contradiction is filled with examples of intelligent and Godly men or women expressing sound reasoning in their close relationship with God.

Were we to embrace the line of reasoning exemplified by "Ali al-Timimi", how would we interpret the recent waves of devastation in every corner of the world. The majority of innocents being injured by "Natural" disaster are of Muslim heritage. Does that mean that God is expressing His distaste for Muslim behavior exercised around the world? There have been many more persons killed by "so called" natural destruction than all the terrorist acts committed throughout history to this date. How can they possibly think that hatred harbored and expressed in the actions of these mere "self proclaimed" righteous men and women could possibly compare with the example expressed by an omnipotent and Righteous God.

It is our responsibility as caretakers of God's Word to express the love which Christ exemplified in His supreme act of Sacrificial Love and Forgiveness. An ungrateful and unclear thinking world of self righteous extremists are the propagators of this continued and perverted hatred for truth. We are expected to reach out to those injured with the hope of healing their bodies, environment and their minds. Not imposing our beliefs but rather sharing our love for all of mankind.

Hopefully his time for reflection, while incarcerated for this inappropriate behavior, will result in clearer thinking and not the clouded rationalization presently fostered by a bitter soul.

Robert Layne Laptad,
Missouri, USA
USMC Totally Disabled