Vatican's Ties With Islam

Tamerlane and PIzzaro, ambassadors of peace.

A Catholic-Islamic pact has all the ring of the Soviet-Nazi non-aggresion pact from before WWII.

So will the Muslims enslave the children who the priests will later rape?

Wow, this article is ripe for parody...

Kali:

According to stories emerging about conduct in some of Pakistan's madrassahs, it sounds like RC and Anglican priests aren't the only sexual abusers around.

Seems that the muslim community is focused on promoting the lie that Pope John Paul II apologized for the Crusades.

HE DID NOT.

Let us be ready to counter this and other lies that are sure to come forth in the near future.

It is a profound misreading of the Pope John Paul II's initiative to characterize it as a bid for alliance. It is more appropriate to call it a bid for cooptition, retaining competition where it makes sense but keeping the lines of communication open and promoting cooperation where that makes sense according to both sides. Cooptition is a pretty new idea and it makes for strange bedfellows.

It's a mark of JP II's tremendous vision that he's taken a relatively new business idea and translated it very well into the realm of religious interfaith relationships. What JP II was advocating was not Crusade, Jihad, or any sort of dhimmi relationship but something rather new. It would be appropriate to react to what it was and not to try to shoehorn it into any sort of tired categories that do not fit its reality.

Breaking dhimmitude is a fine goal. Replacing dhimmitude with something superior that respects the dignity of all is the best way to accomplish your goal.

Is Taheri lying, or did the pope actually apologize for the crusades?

And what's this recurrent dhimmi crap about worshipping the same god? I've never bowed my head to the bloodthirsty god of Islam in my life.

Am I confused, or what?

Cato~ Not confused. You don't listen to the MSM and others who are spinning it that way.

Thanks for dealing with Carthage tho.

Archbishop Scola I thought was too old to be considered. He does have comedy value though. He would if made pontif be
Pope Scola. Pepsi would love that.

In Western Europe, the heartland of Catholicism, the pope saw Islam as an ally on such issues as homosexual "marriages", abortion, euthanasia, human cloning, and the status of women.

You just have to put your head in hands on that one.

For them to set their 1400 year-old competition for converts aside in the name of fighting the common enemies of secularism and atheism is not an easy option....

Secularism is just what we need. Superstitious, unrealistic, and impractical modes of thinking have no place in the modern world. As long as pretentious, power hungry men continue to claim their authority comes from an invisible, supernatural, omniscient source and people continue to fall for it, we’ll be stuck with the misogamist, intolerant, cruel, patriarchal systems of social control we have. Don’t get me started. Good grief.

f.g.

Cato,

The Pope apologized to the Orthodox Christians for the Fourth Crusade. Ironically, the two bloodiest crusades were waged against fellow Christians, the Fourth, and the Albigensian.

The Fourth Crusade started going awry when the Venetians needed payment for boats. The crusaders ransacked their commercial rivals in lieu of cash payment. Later, the crusaders wrecked Constantinople. That crusade never made it to the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem.

The Albigensian made France a nation and laid the groundwork for the Inquisiton. It's a long story. Pope Innocent III, Cathars, Simon de Montfort, Languedoc, Beziers, etc...

Cardinal Ratzinger is my hope for Pope, he is steadfast in his position with regard to Islam, he alos promotes the Encyclical,Dominus Iesus, which many Catholics don't understand, this is because in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it gives a warm and friendly understanding of the relationship with Islam, unfortunately the Muslims I have met do not or have not been so welcoming, (in fact a bunch if them really tried it on with me once because i insisted that Jesus died on the Cross, and rose from the dead, and that got very .

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
Dominus Iesus

Providing ANYONE who dies does so without final impenitance, or perhaps a last minute work of grace occurs (for example a person who holds no religious ideas goes into a blazing building and rescues a person who was trapped) That person is 'SAVED' from what is he 'SAVED'but from 'JUDGEMENT' this is a terrible experience which Jesus tells many of us will endure 'by the skin of our teeth'. Not everyone who is JUDGED will go to HELL, but it is a serious event for a persons soul, being 'SAVED' however is an event that is clearly described by Jesus and by God /Jesus in Ezekiel, the Christian salvation is centerd about the Christians realization that Jesus is the Son of God who has come down from heaven, who suffered deathe and died on the Cross and was raised to life on the third day, we say that Christ is alive NOW, and because of this we know that we shall not see 'JUDGEMENT' we have passed from death to life . When a person through Grace (I.E saves a person in a burning building) Or through Catholic Faith beleives in God, both inherit the gift of eternal life, but only one can be raised up on the last day (resurrection) the other must first 'Wash themselves in the blood of the lamb' so that person must be born again. This is how Muslims can hope for salvation because rejection of the law of Moses (Thou shalt not kill, Love thy (Non -Muslim ) neighbour ) etc has made it impossible for them to come as Muslims to the resurection, and they cannot be justified by believing that Simon of Cyrene and not Jesus died on the Cross or that jesus did not rise on the third day which makes them guilty of calling the work of God and Jesus as well as the Holy Spirit a lie; a denial worthy of terrible judgement!

Cardinal Ratzinger I hpoe you succeed to the throne of St Peter

Beagle-

A curious little adjunct to the Cathar story is the fictional work called "Flicker". Worth a read if you can find a bargain copy. (By the author of "The Making of a Counter-Culture" hit book in the 1970's.)

Catholicism needs to gird its loins, stand up for the Prince of Peace against the Warlord of Weirdness, and put the stakes more accurately:

"Mohammad distorted gnostic ideas of early Christianity, and added some repressive Old Testament traditions, forming a crude proto-protestantism out of this illegitmate mix that is more like a parody of the Christian religion of a loving God than a true brother faith in that One self-sacrificing Deity."

I'm a Taoistically inclined agnostic, and even I can see more clearly than the so-called 'princes' of the Church what the real issue is concerning their creed and Islam.

Maybe I read more than the average cardinal, who may be too busy getting fitted for his sumptuous new cassock and silk-lined zuccheto to learn the history of the West's repeated invasions by Muslim would-be-conquerors.

I'm hoping the billion plus Catholics get a serious defender of the faith which teaches about a Creator of Love, and not someone who kowtows to the neighboring creed of the God of Vengeance.

Below is a simple thesis built around the memories which I have always had, this is my personal experience and as such it is my talents or spiritual currency

======================================================
A Simple Catechism states, that the powers of the soul are Memory, Will and Understanding.

My intention is to dwell on memory in conjunction with the Gospel of Jesus Christ; but we will address more subjects as we go on, in particular every verse alluding to life after death or life before birth!

In doing so I do no wrong, as someone who knows, it would be wrong for me not to disclose what I know, every other person can safely adhere to doctrine, this knowledge to me, is so many talents, to hide what is spirit in the earth is unacceptable, Matthew 25-14-30.

To you my readers many things may seem particularly childish this is a good sign as any technicalities would limit the readership, and God works so that everyone may understand.

The issue of life is Salvation, so in actual fact this is the main subject I am addressing and this is by no means a casual exercise, as the case is clear "In God there is no Iniquity".

The model I wish to use is that of Ezekiel Ch.18-v32 and Ch.33-v8-20.from this we can see we have a merciful Father.

My perception of God is that he knows my actions from my thoughts; my actions are born in my mind so they are open to God. In telling you this I am saying clearly that God can predispose himself to whether our actions are pleasing or displeasing.

Now bear with me here I want to make a point I may seem to be childish! I once heard a story of a railroad worker who had lost his foot due to having seen a carriage roll away and putting his foot on the track to stop it, but for the life of him he didn’t know why he did it. Now looking on the lighter side it was a ‘one off ‘ but I want you to examine this as a human trait. For whatever reason this man thought that stopping the carriage was for the common good. This subject, the common good, will crop up again and it is very important especially in relation to God’s mercy, as it is really a mirror of His Mercy, being the measure you give responding to what you receive.

Now let me tell you a story from my oldest memories. I have no names for anyone because only when you live have you got a name, it’s only when you come into the world that you are given a name, but soldier, king, prince and statesman are identifiable by their dress. However you should keep in mind that I am sharing more than this experience with you and that all I tell you will help you to understand the complete picture!

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The Journeys of Christopher Cross

The young soldier stood amongst the pine trees, the early morning calm was mirrored by the humdrum quiet of the camp, men going about their everyday business, preparing or repairing their equipment, writing letters, reading and resting.

The young soldier laid his carbine against a tree and listened to the quietness. There in the background a small sound attracted his attention, gradually the sound claimed more and more of his attention, ever closer and louder it became interspersed with shouts and gunfire. Then men poured by, running like deer, in total confusion, like in a dream. The young soldier watched helplessly, giving no heed to his comrade’s urgent advice to run.

He found himself frozen. Then, coming towards him, he heard the stealthy advance only the hunter makes.
His instinct took over and he found himself cover in the undergrowth.

The young soldier sensed that were other enemy troopers nearby and it was desperately necessary to leave, he would be discovered he knew, so, with his bayonet in his hand he launched himself at the enemy soldier. Who turned just in time to fend off the assault, but because they were so close, he had to discard his carbine and fight hand to hand.

In total silence both men struggled, each knowing that the next person on the scene may not be friendly. The young soldier felt that he could defeat his enemy, but at the critical moment would find that his adversary could get out of trouble, the struggle increased in intensity and with a will both men set out to kill each other. The young soldier held his bayonet with both hands and was driving it downward into his enemy’s chest, who was fending off the blow and holding the young soldier’s wrists. His bayonet connected with the enemy soldier’s tunic, exposing a photograph of a woman and a young girl. On seeing this he immediately stopped fighting as he felt that this man had more reason to live than he and in that split seconds hesitation the enemy soldier turned the bayonet backwards and upwards into the young soldier’s chest.

Ascension

The spirit of the young soldier looked on the scene, and saw the young soldier’s body and sitting astride him the enemy soldier with the photograph in his hand. The enemy soldier was in a state of shock - he couldn’t understand how such a dangerous situation could end so inexplicably. There were other soldiers present, companions of the enemy soldier, who were comforting him. They were rough men and the young soldier’s spirit found them distasteful.

The spirit of the young soldier tried to speak but could not, if he could have he would have comforted the enemy soldier, there was a barrier between them like a six-inch plate glass window, he could not hear what was being said. He also found he could not pray and he couldn’t determine whether it was night or day; even so he consciously wished well to the enemy soldier. Then he started to ascend.

As he arose the soldier drifted into a feeling of forgetfulness for he had many recriminating thoughts against him (if only he had done this and not that and many feelings like this assailed him). When the ascent stopped and the mist cleared he found himself in the entrance to a hallway, he seemed to know this hallway,

At the end of the hallway there was a larger more open area although he could see nothing more than inside the portal he felt a sense of dread about the thought of entering it, he froze not daring to take even another step, he knew that this place was important in that he had to make a choice of where to go and there was the possibility he might walk further than he should, which could be disastrous, or that he would be denied access to the safe place he sought.

Just then two men passed him by. One was a tall bearded man in a check jacket, the other was a plump man with thick black hair in a corduroy jacket, this man too was in a certain amount of trepidation too but his friend was almost casual saying "Ah, here it is" and holding the narrow door open for his companion before he too entered followed smartly by the young soldier.

The Room Where History Meets Fact

Once inside the two men were nowhere to be seen, the young soldier was still in his uniform, he was in a very large room where many people were gathered, every style of dress imaginable from bygone eras were represented,

After a while he came upon a group of people very much in discussion, the young soldier joined them and listened in, the main speaker, a notable looking man was sharing reminiscences of his life in the body, he had been a famous figure and the young soldier recognised him from his own personal academic studies, the notable looking man's audience were rapt in their attention of this reminiscence, the young soldier too was engrossed up until he heard the notable looking man say something out of line with what he had learned from his academic studies.

Politely he interjected and brought it to everyone’s attention, whereupon the distinguished looking mans face became very angry and just like " that " everyone disappeared, with a sense of shock the young soldier realised that emotions like anger really were explosive here,

With that understood he willed himself elsewhere and closed his eyes,

Embryonica

When he reopened them he saw a face that was so wizened, and old that age as he had ever known it was shockingly challenged, the face was that of a sleeper, there was no body with it, to his right and left were other faces each much the same as the first, in between each head there was a blackness, only his eyes were open,

He could see that the position he occupied was part of an orbit of concentric circles, the cycle he was in gave a good view of each of the circles, he could see into the centre, but could not see what was the epicentre, the circles were smaller towards the centre, even though each head was enveloped in thick blackness, they were clearly visible, as though the light emanated from each head,

He understood that as everyone here was so similar, so he too must be! There was no light here and thick blackness enveloped each head,

Directly opposite him in between the space occupied by two heads, a mans arm appeared, this arm vigorously rubbed away the darkness in front of him, there was more darkness behind it but golden letters and unknown characters appeared scrolling past the space which had been vigorously rubbed,

These letters and characters were not openly understood to the witnessing head, or so it appeared yet when they had scrolled past the witnessing head (which it appeared was the only head to have its eyes open) exclaimed just one word.

" PERFECT "

As soon as this word had left his mouth the head was snatched out of the orbit it had been occupying and was borne downwards a great rushing sound accompanied this activity,

Many planets sped by, then the Earth came into view, at this sight the spirit within the head (which had been conceived when it had opened its eyes) halted the descent,

The Great Tribulation? But I have been here before! He said,

Then one of the angels who had snatched him from the orbit he had been occupying, above spoke saying " So long as you live you shall not see War, the second one then said "You shall not live long",

They, the angels were distinguishable by their light, as one was transparently dark and one was transparently light,

These statements seemed reasonable to the newly conceived spirit so without further ado their descent continued, the Earth growing ever larger accepted the three messengers!

Christopher Cross � 12 April, 1997

Well Bill Clinton said on Airforce one on the way to Roma that JP2 was not against his wars against Serbia and killing all the Christians and the Burnings of all those Churches??

Makes you wonder??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT AND COURAGE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN

PS
I don't remember the pope complaining about all the Christians being killed by mulsums or the Church burnings in Kosovo MAKES YOU WONDER??

I hope, too, that the princes of the Church make the right choice, but I have my doubts, given past history.

The secularism that the Church is facing is aggressive and destructive to almost any religious or ethical belief. It's not the secularism of the ancient Greeks, who had an ethical system, but a secularism that is overwhelmingly unethical. This kind of secularism is the kind that also attacked the Tibetan Buddhists, destroying hundreds of their monasteries, killing thousands of monks, and driving out the Dalai Lama. However, that the Vatican should see Islam as a saving grace to trump modern secularism shows either they are sadly mistaken about Islam, or they are pursuing a cynical political policy. Unfortunately, there is precedent for their using the later tactic.

The Vatican is a political entity far more than it represents a religious one. Too often the Vatican has been much more concerned with its own survival than in the survival of the Catholic people. The political policies pursued by Pius XI and XII in relation to fascism ought to be lessons to any Catholic or other Christian who thought that the Vatican defended Christianity. No, it made deals, often at the cost to Catholic Center parties in Europe and any Catholic clergy and laity who would not conform to the fascist wave of the future.

It's not hard to see why the Vatican pursued the policies it did in the 20th century. Pius XI and XII saw anti-clerical Bolshevism as a huge threat (which it certainly was), given the example of the almost total destruction of the Orthodox Church in Russia, and later the murderous anti-clericism in the Spanish Civil War. They were also looking back at several anti-clerical revolutions since the French Revolution. So what did they have to counter the anti-clericism? Not much--as Stalin said--the Pope has no divisions, but if a secular political leader, such as Mussolini or Hitler, should advertise themselves as less of a danger than the Communists (which they did), then why not conclude Concordats (a treaty to guarantee the rights of the Church) with them? Which was what was done in 1929 with Mussolini and in 1934 with Hitler, who mostly refraimed from open anti-clericalism, for the time being at least. The Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima marched with invading German troops into Russia in 1941. Was it with the blessings of Pius XII? There is some evidence for it, given what he said publically on the eve of the invasion evoking the prophesies of Fatima and urging on the Blue armies, and yet Pius was careful not to say too much. He wasn't altogether sure about Hitler, either, to conduct a proper crusade. But Pius was always an extremely hard man to pin down as to exactly what he meant, a papal linguistic custom that continues to this day.

The Vatican has been politically astute, always taking the long view of things. It once saw fascism as the wave of the future--not because it was a right-wing movement, which it wasn't. Fascism was every bit as revolutionary as Communism. But the attractive thing about the fascist was they were willing for a time to leave the Church alone, in exchange for the Vatican's looking the other way. However, anyone who has read Mein Kampf can see that Hitler had no use for the Church any more than Stalin did. Mussolini's brother, Arnoldo, made a religion of fascism and proselytized it to supplant Catholicism. It could be deduced that if fascism had won the day in Europe instead of the Allies, it's highly doubtful the fascists would have tolerated the Vatican or Christianity in any form.

For the cause of modern ecumenism, the Vatican at last made a public apology about the 4th Crusade. No mention, however, was made about the Serbian Orthodox massacred by Croatian Catholics led by Franciscan priests in concert with Muslim battalions during WWII. Pius XII had been thoroughly informed by the Croatian ambassador to the Vatican of these massacres, yet he said nothing even when the ambassador begged him to say something to defend the honor of the Church. As nice as it was to hear the Vatican apologize for the 4th Crusade, why this oversight on recent history? History that's still within living memory? Do they still have designs on the old Byzantine empire? One wonders.

But if the Vatican makes common cause with the Moslems, thinking that they together can save Europe from total secularization, it would only go to show how history repeats itself.

Well, all these comments on the Vatican and Islam make me all the more determined to remain a conservative Calvinist. So what if there aren't many of us?

Disillusioned German:

What I saw at State was, I think, symptomatic of a far wider malaise. Many elite Americans think that abandoning theistic religion is a necessary rite of passage, and thus, when faced with anyone who won't play the game (whether a Red State American, a Khomeini, or a Muslim who thinks Muhammad Atta and friends are sizzling away down there) they get either paranoiac, wishful, condescending, or some combination of the three. They simply can't get it through their heads that people who have a God and a Book can't be pragmatic, subject to their own internal conflicts, or have differences about the deities they worship and the books they read.

Disillusioned German:

Also, if your system isn't run on the Fuerherprinzip (and that goes for most of the West and a growing chunk of the rest), a president or chancellor, no matter how committed he is to a program, is only going to have partial success; for the political system requires give-and-take among constituent parts, mollifying an opposition, and understanding just how far the people are going to follow.

As for the Vatican, it has a very hierarchical professional organization; but its people in the pews are very diverse. Nor can they be counted on to support all that their leaders will say or do. After all, how much of your own country's history was shaped by conflicts between the temporal heads of the Holy Roman Empire and the spiritual leadership of the Pope? And you Germans sure aren't alone in having a history.

Raztinger is the new Pope, in my opinion is a great decision, Thank to God

I say wait and see if the new Pope Benedict will really stand against Islam rather than collude with them against modern secularism. At least Ratzsinger had opposed the entry of Turkey into the EU, but let's wait and see if he was just haggling for a better deal from the Turks.

The question is will Ratzinger carry on the same ecumenical politics such as was displayed at the Assisi conference in 2002 hosted by the Vatican. To avoid offending Buddhists, Hindus, Moslems clerics who attended, the crucifixes were removed and any images of Christ were covered up. What message can that convey to non-Christians (religious or not) about what the Vatican is willing to trade off for ecumenical politics?

Calvinist Kepha--when it comes to Vatican politics, it doesn't much matter what the parish congregations think. The Vatican and Catholic parishes are two different entities--sometimes they flow together on Catholic policy, sometimes not, but it's the Vatican, not the parishes, that political pundits watch like no other institution as it's a weathervane of things to come in the West. It's well known that Vatican always has its ear to the ground around the world--an intelligence agency par excellence. There was a reason why 70 world leaders, many non-Catholic, attended JPII's funeral. The Vatican is not to be ignored.

As to its influence on the person in the parish pew, even the silliest ideas of ecumenical politics eventually filters down to everyone, even Protestants, conservative as well as liberal. I've watched it happen over the past 40 years. No denomination has proved truly immune to the charms or traps of modern ecumenism. On the whole, ecumenism has been disasterous for Christianity, but overall good for papal supremacy. I hope, though, the Vatican will decide they've had enough of surrendering Christianity so that Christians everywhere stop their slippery slide into religious dissolution and cultural suicide.

The Vatican can be a huge force for genuine good. It can at least help hold the line against various cultural enemies, but it must take a unequivocal stand for its original purpose and stop playing Manchivellian politics for its own benefit. Whether it will now do that, we must wait and see.