Afghan Muslim leaders demand handover of Qur'an desecrators

This is another example of a tendency that has run through Islamic history: when something happens that Muslims see as a provocation, they declare jihad and use it as a pretext for jihad recruitment

What don't Muslims see as a provocation? As long as we breathe the same oxygen as the Islamic world, they will find cause to wage jihad against us. As Hugh always writes with respect to Israel, "the war without end".

Why dont they come to Guantanamo Bay and get the Qur'an desecrators themselves

Beth
Now the response I promised a few threads back
I have wriitten before I am not a christian.in fact I don’t want to tie myself to any one monotheistic religions like Christianity, Islam or worship any One True God.
As unfortunately there's some confusion over who the One True God actually is. Christians believe one thing, Muslims another, and the Jewish faith is different yet again.
Christians, Jews, Muslims, Protestants, Catholics, and Seventh-Day Jehovah's Mormons all devoutly worship the same Supreme Being. But the devil is in the details and, apart from confessing their devotion to the One True God, they can't agree on anything else. Which is very sad as this has caused a lot of unnecessary pain and suffering.
I try to respect everyone's beliefs I don't want to offend anyone in any way. But I,ll just say this. Whether in business or religion, monopolies can be a very bad thing. Monotheism seems to bring out the worst in some people
Iin practice,I cannot respect any Manifesto that enshrines man such as Mein Kampf and the Qur’an that puts Satan on a pedestal.And from there deceive, beguiling the masses to perpetrate murder and mayhem. where draconian dictatorships are imposed. where all people are indoctrinated, starting when people are no more than infants. All freedoms are obliterated. Only poverty survives. Where their mantra is always submit and obey. A thin veneer of order is maintained through fear.
I grew up being taught the scriptures of the bible and I have great respect for the holy scripture,but Polytheism, with its acceptance of many Gods and multiple beliefs, is not only more friendly and more fun, it's safer too.
Sometimes quite angry folk curse me,and tell me that the One True God is the only deity worth worshipping. How dare you worship other Gods? they ask. I usually reply by asking what all the billions of people who've worshipped these deities over the past few thousand years would say to this." I DO NOT pretend to an experts on all religions, but I can certainly point you to quite a few places in the Holy Bible where other Gods are mentioned by name."
Why else would the Lord say "Thou shalt have no other Gods but me?"

The bottom line: Just because I may worship a God of Goobligooke doesn't mean I am a lesser man or a unbeliever.Just because I may believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn,does not make me a monster
I cannot condone any of the crimes being committed by muslims around the world today and the last 1400yrs in the name of Alllah
I am strongly opposed to Nazism and Islam

I think they had better start standing down & releasing hostages or they may find lots of Qurans in the toilet.

How about we hand them over the two reporters from Newsweek and let them do the 'splainin'.

islam is fast approaching the point of non-invisibility. they used to be totally under the radar, but their stealth is beginning to wear thin.
If allah is so all-powerful and omnipotent, why doesnt he just smite ALL of the infidels?
For that matter, why let us little people fight amongst ourselves at all? Why dont the gods just have a friggin war, and we can all just worship the last god standing?
The koran is just a friggin book written by a flippin psychopath. it belongs in the garbage heap of bad ideas and broken hallucinogenic dreams

I heard on the news this AM, that Newsweek is responsible for the rioting and deaths over Quran flushing. Newsweek is responsible for no such thing...the fantatics that took to the streets are responsible. Newsweek may have been faulty, but Robert is right...any ole excuse will do to inflame passions, bring out the demons and cause trouble.
Those dullards in Afghan, who want the guilty turned over, know perfectly well that ainta gunna happen so they are then free to act up...that way they can jihad no matter what the outcome...another example of the insanity of the muslim mind...

Don’t they understand that most Americans treat the Qur’an with contempt.
I for example store my Qur’an in the bathroom, or I keep the Qur’an safe by setting it on the floor and beating it with the bottom of my shoe! Nothing gets your point across better then a size 12.

I had know idea the Qur’an had a “voodoo doll” like character.
I cant help but think that every time I step on my Qur’an some poor Moslem Ulema a thousand miles away is screaming in agony, causing a riot and partaking in traditional Moslem injustice masqueraded as holiness. I had made the claim before that Moslems worship Mohammad not Allah, here we see that Moslems worship a book and not just any book, but a poorly contrived one at that.

16 muslims killed by soiled wet book

impressive weapon

quick! air drop newsweek magazines onto every muslim land

drop bullets and guns too

Concocting pretext to wage jihad is as old as the doctrine itself and I would suggest is inseparable from it. The template for this codicil to the jihad doctrine was forged by Muhammed himself when he invented a pretext for the jihad against Mecca, declaring that the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah was void due to "violation" of the treaty by an allied tribe of the Meccans.

This same behavior pattern was repeatedly exhibited by the despots who ruled the Barbary States. The Bashaw of Tripoli declared a jihad on the United States in 1801 because the United States did not pay him a sufficient tribute to "secure the peace", i.e. did not pay a de facto jizya. The response of President Thomas Jefferson to the declaration of jihad against the United States is forever enshrined in the opening verse of the Marine Corps Hymn. There is plenty of room for yet another verse.

These voodoo-like, hypersensitive Muslims, who have turned their "holy book" into a talisman and thereby have themselves desecrated it (though how one can desecrate something which is not holy in the first place, but that argument is for another time), are showing the world that their so-called religion is a cult. I posted some of the following elsewhere, and I'll post it here too.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/14/AR2005051401158.html
[Registration required]:
GHAZNI, Afghanistan, May 14 -- The mullah drove back and forth past Del Agha's shop in a taxi Thursday, blaring his message through a megaphone: "Our religion and our Koran have been abused! We should all demonstrate after Friday prayers!" Agha recalled being skeptical of the May 9 report in Newsweek that the mullah was referring to, which claimed that interrogators at the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, had placed copies of the Koran in bathrooms and flushed one down a toilet. But the 47-year-old dried-goods seller decided to join the demonstration anyway in this small city in eastern Afghanistan. "Just as we listen to our religious leaders when they call us to pray in the mosque," Agha explained, "we have to follow them when they make other decisions for us."...

What is very revealing in all this hoopla is the last statement in the above citation from The Washington Post. Sounds cultlike to me and puts me in mind of Jim Jones.
[end of previous post]

They are mighty sensitive about the ALLEGED destruction of some paper, but they certainly don't seem to object to flying planes into buildings or to sawing heads off.

Fact, proven time and again: There is no way to reason with these jihadists. Any imagined offense fuels their psychotic hatred, and I do not doubt that they themselves would create an offense so as to have the opportunity to cry "Jihad!"

Watchfuleye:

What else could the Koran be but a Talisman, when so many of its adherents cannot even read it?

Bar...does that mean if I stick a pin in my copy of Quran a riot will start in Nigeria or somewhere? This needs further investigation...certainly the military would be interested...I'm going to get some pins and try it out...if anything happens I will let you know...we might be on to something...

We do need to send Isikoff and Baker, and Whitaker over there to explain things.

OT
http://www.sacredcowburgers.com/parodies/real_islam.jpg

When reading their "holy book", I like to use a bloody tampon as a book mark! ;)

The Intolerant and Militant Nature of Islam
One of the most controversial issues regarding Islam concerns whether or not it is a militant religion. Muslims in the West argue it is peace-loving. Westerners who have experienced it in the Muslim world argue it is inherently in­tolerant and militant.

The Koran itself preaches intolerance toward other religions. Sura 5 contains the following command: “Take not Jews and Christians for friends . . . He among you who takes them for friends is one of them . . . Choose not for friends such of those who received the Scripture before you [Jews and Christians] . . But keep your duty to Allah” (verses 51, 55, 57). Extreme intolerance is commanded in Sura 5:33 — “[For those who do not submit to Allah] their punishment is . . . execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet, from the opposite sides, or exile from the land.”

The Koran also expresses an intolerant attitude toward any person who decides to reject the Islamic faith or convert to another religion. Such persons are to be executed (Sura 9:12). In the Hadith (the oral tradition of Muhammad’s sayings) it says “Whoever changes his religion, kill him” (Hadith 9:57). These commands are practiced in all Islamic Fundamentalist countries today.

With regard to militancy, the Koran not only condones it, it commands it:

Fighting is prescribed for you, and [some of] you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not (Sura 2:16).

Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war (Sura 9:5).

Fight in the way of Allah . . . and slay them [the unbelievers] wherever you find them and drive them out . . . and fight them until . . . religion is for Allah (Sura 2:190-193).

Muhammad is quoted in the Hadith as saying, “The sword is the key of heaven and hell. A drop of blood in the cause of Allah — a night spent in arms [war] — is of more avail than two months of fasting and prayer. Whosoever falls in battle, his sins are forgiven, and at the day of judgment, his limbs shall be supplied by the wings of angels and cherubim.”12

To somehow defend their actions that are rooted in the Quran and the Hadith, Muslims counter by pointing to the intolerance and violence that have characterized both Jews and Christians , they point to the Christian Crusades in the Middle Ages. Using these examples, they accuse Jews and Christians of being hypocritical in attacking the in­tolerance and violence of Islam today.

What a contrast all the ghastly commands of Muhammad are to the loving words of Jesus who told Christians:

“Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you” (Matthew 5:44).

“Whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also” (Matthew 5:39).

“Do not judge, lest you be judged” (Matthew 7:1).

“However you want people to treat you, so treat them” (Mat­thew 7:12).

“You shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:39).

“This is my commandment that you love one another” (John 15:12, 17).

“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13).

And what a contrast it is between the admonition of Muhammad to conquer for Allah with the sword and Jesus’ exhortation to go forth in peace and appeal to people’s hearts through the preaching of the Gospel, relying on the persuasive power of God’s Holy Spirit.

I am strongly opposed to Nazism and Islam

You needn't repeat yourself.

Shiva, are you in India? Tell us about "the glory of Islam" and what the invading jihadis did to your great and fair land.

***********************************************

Afghan Ulema demands hand over of desecrators of Holy Quran...

Come get us yourselves, cowards.

Israelis have apparently known about this tactic all along...

"Israeli man accused of planning a glider flight over Temple Mount shrine to ignite a Palestinian uprising was freed without charge."

Newsweek lied.
People died.

Muslims in the West argue it is peace-loving

At least as much as the moon is made of green cheese. They are frustrated that normal people don't share their delusion.

John Simpson has dared to write an article about the Newsweek Qur'an desecration spoof.

And the current title of the article is perhaps the most ironic byline of all time: REPORTING THE TRUTH

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4551149.stm

And the overall message: Don't blame Al Jazeera, just giving its audience a report of interest. And Newsweek just reported what they heard from a source at the Pentagon, who later retracted. There is SO MUCH evidence of American anti-Muslim treatment, who can blame Muslims for taking this seriously? (And who can blame them for going crazy? And who can blame them for still being mad about this?)

The implication: Blame the United States and 'anti-Muslim' policies for the riots and the killings around the world. That is the cause. Violence for something like this, the desecration of the holy Qur'an, is simply something that is 'to be expected'.

So, just as Israel is responsible for suicide bombings, the United States is responsible for all the bombings in Iraq, all the bombings everywhere, I suppose. I suppose the United States is responsible for 9/11. Everyone already knows, of course, that the Spanish government and Bush were responsbile for Madrid. I suppose the Dutch, or Theo Van Gogh himself, are responsible for Van Gogh's murder. I suppose Aussie tourists, or better yet, America and the Jews, are responsible for Bali; America and the Jews are also to blame for Nigeria, Morroco, Turkey, Tunisia. I suppose tourists, or surely America and the Jews, are responsible for Luxor and, more recently Cairo. I suppose the Russians are responsible for Beslan. I suppose whereever there is a murder in the name of Allah, the defense of Islam, is it the fault of the victims or better yet, America and those Jews. But, do not blame Muslims. There is no global Islamic Jihad. That is an illusion. There is only reasonable reaction from peaceful people, peaceful Muslims, from a peaceful religion, to the aggressive, colonial, United States, the Nazi-like Bush, and the greedy, mean, brutality of the Jews, or the many anti-Islamic meanies around the world, like those Russians, Hindus, Sikhs, Bahais, Zoroastorians, Thais, Filipinos, Armenians, Chinese, Iraqi Christians, Lebanese Christians, Indonesian Christians, Christian missionaries, Copts, and all the rest.

Yes, indeed, one must report the truth.

Actually, I find that the pages of the Koran do not make good toilet paper. They're too stiff and the scratch!

But the do make excellent covering for the bottom of the bird cage.

The BOOK
http://www.sacredcowburgers.com/parodies/islamic_truth.jpg

Billr...
Fight Islamosis in the only civilized way...get yourself a bird...or even two...

It isn't Newsweek's fault, it's the fault of the Islamic savages! They are animals and time to really get a crusade going before that filth spreads even farther!

Apx. 600 Churches have been burned to the ground in the last 7 years or so in Indonesia.
(Along with an estimated 50,000 Christians killed & 200,000 displaced.)

A conservative estimate would be that there were on average, shall we say, 100 Bibles in each Church, So that's apx 60,000 Bibles burned by 'Laskar Jihad'

Maybe the Muslims in Afghanistan should take a leaf out of our book.

In keeping with the command in Romans 12:19
"Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord."
The Indonesian Christians sat tight.
December 26th saw Gods' vengeance.

But I forget, Allah, unlike Yahweh, is impotent and so needs marauding genocidal hoardes to do his bidding.

Good day everyone,
Kc

It's nice to see that we have not lost our senses of humor around here.

Life goes on despite Islamists and other fanatics. I'm sure that must really make them ready to murder someone, to hear that....

Time for a quick limerick:

In Gitmo Bay there was a koran
Muslims claimed was flushed down the pan
Although having no proof
They still hit the roof
And rioted in Afghanistan

Dhimmis writer at National Review suggests that not only should Newsweek have kept their mouth shut but so should have Salmon Rushdie and Theo Van Gogh. Did I read that correctly?
http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/comment/marshall200505160837.asp

I hope no one starts flushing korans down the loo in New York. Lots of people swear blind the sewers there are crawling with alligators. The last thing we need is loads of massive reptiles with teeth like sabres converting to Islam.

While it may not be Newsweak's fault as some say, it is their fault for being in the business of blaming America for every ill in the world. The islamic mob needs to go to work and produce something, then they wouldn't have time to riot all the time.

"Christians believe one thing...Islam..."

If Christians spill blood? Are they Christians? Find their own writings that will support them.

If Muslims spill blood? are they still Muslims? There are an abundance of writings in the Koran that will support them.

shiva said..

As unfortunately there's some confusion over who the One True God actually is.

There is a God Who DEMANDS that ALL humans treat each other as they themselves want to be treated.

And then there are many other kinds of gods.

The beauty of the times that we live in - is that the One Who preaches Peace - has protected His followers with "Freedom of Religion" {but is being ruined by Islam.

shiva...

I try to respect everyone's beliefs I don't want to offend anyone in any way.

The world would be a better pace if ALL behaved the same. But that is not reality. shiva - even if you don't believe in ANY god - you [even all athiests] have only 2 choices:

Fight back with the Truth -

or lie down and let Islam overcome - whose laws are BRUTAL!

shiva said

starting when people are no more than infants

That statement is not to be under-estimated!

But we have to start somewhere - don't we?

shiva said...

Just because I may believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn,does not make me a monster

No - it doesn't. Not as far as I'm concerned.

shiva said..

I am strongly opposed to Nazism and Islam

So am I !!!! Others may be just as disgusted [but not more than me] over what happened to the Jews under a vicious TYRANT!!!

but coming now into the present times:

Islam is using Hitlor to further their cause!

Because - the world keeps claiming Hitler was a Christian.

Was he? Give the Scriptures that say he was. Until then - it is a great lie!

On the other hand - Are the Muslims who slaughter behaving as true Muslims?

Their own Koran - will undeniably - say YES!

I want to show something that I posted to libbysmom - who got the immppression that I was advocating genocide against the Jews.

I will post that right here - but in a separate post....here goes

object to Beth's advocacy of genocide against Jews in Israel, and suddenly, I am supporting Islam?

Posted by: libbysmom

I am their BIGGEST defender!

Why are you understanding me backwards? [I ask humbly]

Here is the Proof:

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

The Koran forgot to mention Palestine.

The Lord of the Bible did not.

Isa 14:31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

[That is one reason why the 'Christian' leaders hate me so much - believe it or not. They are the "Diversity" and "Tolerance" preachers]

Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Isa 14:26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

Luk 11:23 He that is not with me is against me.

Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations.

Mat 24:21 Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Palestine was condemned A LONG TIME AGO!

Exd 15:14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina. {Song of Moses - the saints 'sing' this song} Rev 15:3

The poorest and ONLY argument the defeders of Islam have - is "Religion" has nothing to do with Palestine"

Oh but it does!

The God Who condemns ALL FORMS OF VIOLENCE BETWEEN HUMANS - CONDEMNS THE KORAN!

The Prophecy about Palestine [one of the oldest] proves allah is not God.

For the REAL God didn't forget to mention Palestine for end times.

I hope you see how powerful this is libbysmom.

I hope everyone sees how powerful this is!

2Pe 1:21 The prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD?

2Pe 1:19 We have a more sure Word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed. [Eternal Life is at stake]

If people can be made to understand [ALL people who know there is a Creator of heaven and earth]made to understand - that it is Eternal Life that is at stake - Islam will fall.

And why not? Look at the fruits it does bear!

shiva - help me to spread these truths.

I believe they are the Jews only hope.

I won't be posting much longer here [but will always check out Jihad Watch. It is good website for keeping the people posted on what is going on]

But I plan to move on - to spread the Truth.

Peaple either join in and take up the cause - or they can lie down - and we can ALL fall under the BRUTAL laws of Islam

Beth

I have stated several times that "of course" the liberal media is on the side of islam.

Islam is using the techniques of the liberal left's 1970's advancement. The liberal left thinks that here is "another allie" to help. Because the liberal left has helped advance so many special interest groups (you name them). So here is another, so the left has helped advance them. The left looks at islam and realizes that islam is doing a great job by theirselves, because the left already broke trail and the trail is on the map.

So occasionally you get someone on the left that individually wants to run a little help "article" of the islam "cause". Only problem is the left gets surprised on occasion that this "new cause" actually believes the propaganda that they put out, and they are willing to kill with rage.

The left (and many on the right) will not know until it is to late that this "monster" will not stop at anything.

Beth~ good luck in all you do! You will be missed.

Sorry to see you go ,Beth...you know a lot and try harder than most anyone...admirable...
Unfortunatly truth is not only hard to come by, when you get it and try to pass it on, the people that need to hear(understand) it, got their truth shields up...you almost need a truth sand blaster to erode away wrong thinking and denial. It's easy when you are only dealing with yourself...simply, always tell "yourself", the truth and always do whats right...but try to convince a wrong headed hardhead, and you have immediate difficulties...but, that is no reason to quit or not to try...right actions sooner or later bring right results...good luck on what you will do next...swami

Shiva (also spelled Siva, Sanskrit: शिव) is a form of God in Hinduism.

I came back to let shiva know - that I can present all kinds of Scriptures from the Old and New Testament - that will support his believe.

I too - believe there is a destroyer - one that this world knows nothing about.

Gary? --So will you! I miss you.

I will miss everyone - even ia786 [smile ia]

correction

Gary? --So will I miss you too

It's easy when you are only dealing with yourself...simply, always tell "yourself", the truth and always do whats right...but try to convince a wrong headed hardhead, and you have immediate difficulties

swami

If we only deal with and for ourselves - what good is it?
we will have 'lost our flavor'

We just have to be persistant. The onles who want to lord over us - with brutality - are very persistant. So - keep up the good fight.

I miss you swami.

These people are psychotic.

For the record: John Simpson's scandalous editorial on the desecration spoof has disappeared from the ONLINE FRONT PAGE, where it received top billing with a photo of Simpson. I can't find it anywhere now. Even the BBC must have shuddered at that ridiculous piece of nonsense, which proves one more time to the world that the powerful John Simpson, is an anti-American, pro-Islam lunatic.

In its place one finds the more tame:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4551683.stm

Now we get babble about journalistic ethics from the BBC. Now that really is the crux of the matter, isn't it? Millions of Muslims get 'inflamed', riots, killings, over a book and a toilet, and the problem is journalistic ethics. Man, now that just makes a whole lot of sense, doesn't it?

Good going BBC, way to keep the public informed about crucial, relevant, cutting edge issues.

Newsweek will never be read in my house again. Lets start an active boycott of that islamofacist rag.

Beth, check in every so often. You will be missed.

"Newsweek will never be read in my house again. Lets start an active boycott of that islamofacist rag."

Posted by: Pegcity

Same here Pegcity, I stopped my subscription a year ago. It is a shame too, after 9-11 it was a really good source for information on the jihad. I looked forward to getting it. Same for Vanity Fair, now it is so left leaning I refuse to read it.

Pegcity
Newsweek done more good than harm
It has provoked the Muslims to expose themselves
and more people have been made more aware of the Islamic threat.Think about it!!

OUR BRAVE SOILDERS MAY PAY THE PRICE FOR NEWSWEAK AND OTHER LIBERAL MEDIA OUTLETS BECAUSE THEY ONLY CARE ABOUT TRYING TO MAKE BUSH LOOK BAD.THAN ABOUT THE WORLD WINNING THE WAR ON AHOLES.BOYCOTT EM HELL YES,BUT MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE LIKE CAMPAIGNS TO GET FOLKS TO CANCEL THERE SUBSCRIPTION ECT.. ADVERTISERS NEED TO BE PRESSURED TO RESPOND ALSO CAUSE ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY IN THE LONG RUN.

It seems to me that to expose the true face of Islam, we should do everything in our power to outrage every Muslim in the world.

A risk? Yes, but a necessary one in light of the dhimmitude of the govwernment. Muslim threats will awaken a national concern and show that appeasement to Muslims only creates more problems.

Lure the jihadists out of the woodwork where they can be seen for who they really are.

Here's a modest proposal: what about we give them the two reporters from Newsweek in exchange for the same number of Al-Qaeda members still at large in Afghanistan.

Listen live to Michael Medved now discussing the flushing -

http://www2.krla870.com/listen/

Mr.Simpson is your typical hate America first,apologist and appeaser reflecting the usual ignorance about Islam that most of the media appears to do on a daily basis. Stop looking at the world of Islam through those rose colored glasses.

Mr. Simpson; why don't you write about the arrest of over 100 Christians in Saudia Arabia by their religious police and the confiscation of over 40 bibles, and yes what did they do with those bibles in Saudia Arabia? ---My friends the silence is deafening ,but the near hint of desecration of the Quran and every Dhimmi is out there trying to apologize for what may not have even happened. Sorry but a religion that preaches hate against Christians and Jews does not get any of my sympathy whatsoever. We don't need to play paddy cake with people who rage with anti-semitism at every turn through the teachiings of the sura and the hadith . Wake up ! These people will have no problem taking out the bible and destroying it right in front of the cameras' if it has happened yet.

I spent time in Camp Delta dealing with the detainees and I must say that when I first heard the allegations, I laughed. How stupid! There is more than one person involved in the interrogation process. The interrogators are only allowed to interrogate in authorized areas and the interrogations are under constant supervision by third parties. This would mean that the detainee would be taken to a bathroom not authorized for detainees and staff use while someone flushed pages of the Quran down the toilet in order to get them to talk.
First of all, it’s an ineffective interrogation approach. Second, procedures are so scrutinized and micromanaged that many people would have their heads on a chopping block. Third, if this occurred, why didn’t the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) publish these finding before Newsweek? They conduct personal interviews with the detainees and none of these allegations were reported. Every step was taken to ensure that the detainees were treated fairly.

See below link;
http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/678FK8?OpenDocument&style=custo_print

Once again, reporters and writers will believe any account just to get a breaking news article. American people, let’s get smart. It’s clear that we need to corroborate similar topics with pure, unadulterated fact; period.

As for the riots in Afghanistan, they probably were instigated by some so-called scholar with internet access. Remember, Afghanistan is still stuck in the 1960’s when it comes to modernization. I spent 4 months in Kabul and it was not uncommon to see animal drawn carriages and meet elders who have never seen a cell phone. Uninformed Afghans are very impressionable. A lot of merit was placed in this Newsweek article because it was viewed as credible compared to their media sources. After all, Americans will do and say anything for a buck!

Now, I'm just thinking out loud here, but what about a National (dare I hope, Internationl?) Koran-Flushing Day, celebrated, say, on May 10th (just to pick a day). Everyone can stock on Korans and as soon as the clock strikes 12 midnight, start those pages tearing and the flush handle pumping!!! Maybe have it start off in....drum roll...Flushing, Queens, NY.

One other comment: I believe the Miami Herald had reports about Koran stomping and perhaps some flushing in March.

Really, I'm of two minds about this flushing business: On the one hand, I believe religious views of others should be treated with respect (if possible and when not too inconvenient); on the other hand, they are Moslems. What to do?

Do people really believe that Newsweek has denied this story as true?

What Newsweek actually said:

"we believed our story was newsworthy because a U.S. official said government investigators turned up this evidence [of the desecration]."

"Our original source later said he couldn't be certain about reading of the alleged Qur'an incident in the report we cited, and said it might have been in other investigative documents or drafts."

IE: the story has not been denied. It is probably more than confirmed considering that this incident fits in perfectly with the pattern of abuse and torture that the US international prison system has become reknowned for.

Beth,

Take care. Thanks for chipping in, girl.

No doubt you'll be out there spreading the word about the danger of Islam. Keep it up!

First, Islam has to hand over all terrorists and the rest of their folks who attack and murder people of other religions or kill women for honor "crimes"! Then maybe we might let them talk to the "suspects". But I wouldn't hand over Jeffrey Dahmer to those savages!

Isn't the leader of Afghanistan called Khazi?

For all you Yanks this is a British slang word for loo, strangely enough.

Also the Khyber Pass is a Rhyming slang word for bottom, as in giving someone a kick up the Khyber.

We the people of the United States of America demand of all muslim countries to hand over all individuals whom have burned a United States Flag. This is heresy to our way of life and they have insulted the people of this great land and culture. Here they will be judged by Human Beings with a conscience and be thrown behind bars without a chance for paroll.
If you do not do this within three days, we will declare May 19 as a new US Holdiay of Quran Book Flushing/Burning pit day.

The Pathtic part is, we would likely have 1/3 of the muslim population behind bars.

I just got to thinking (again) and if there's one thing this incident proves as much as any other in recent years, it's that the Muslims need more jobs, more sex, more responsibilities, more comedians and more beach and mountain getaways.

Is there a group of people on the planet that ismore tightly wound and ready to form into a mob at the drop of a hat than Islamists?

When your entire existence is so tied up in a cult that preaches hate rhetoric and violence, incidents like this recent riot are the result and frighteningly commonplace.

So is terrorism.

Shukri,

Actually I bought a Koran from Barnes and Noble last night.

I've stepped on it, peed on some of the pages I tore out of it, had dog shit wrapped it, and I've still got pages left. I think a red marking pen with my thoughts on the inside cover might go well, you know, sort of a book signing party.

If you'd like to borrow it, I'll it ship over to ya so you can smell it.

Nice binding though.

I thought you were better than that, Bill. I hope that you are...

Shukri,
When the Koran becomes better....so will BillR

FOX BREAKING NEWS:---16:12-PACIFIC STANDARD TIME

NEWSWEEK OFFICIALLY RETRACTS STORY OF KORAN DESECRATION AT GITMO.

How does this news not draw as much outrage as the flushing of the Koran?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/05/16/iraq.main/index.html

"BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraqi police have found at least 55 corpses in six locations, including those from a dozen men executed Sunday, police said."

Makes absolutely zero sense to me...

Moose

Shukri,
Wow, the US did not even react that violently to 911. What an examle those muslims are setting from their behaviour. The world is looking at how foolish those drones are acting at the goading from their imans.

Shukri,

You said, "I thought you were better than that, Bill. I hope that you are..."

Actually I'm not. Couldn't read any of that scrawley Arab stuff so what was I to do?

The truth is, I hold your "One True God" in real contempt along with his prophet, what's his face, the pedophile.

In fact, my neighbors don't much care for him either now that I've enlightened them. But maybe you could do a little damage control in my neighborhood. You know - door to door, sort of spread the good word and all, that is if they don't beat the living !@#t out of you.

Not me, them, and I could watch and explain to the police how you assaulted them, sort of how you like to twist the truth to further your agenda.

I've said it before and I'll say it again Shukri - there's a storm coming and you won't want to be outdoors when it starts to rain.

We should demand that Muslims put their own Koran in toilet water. And if they refuse to do so, we should bomb them. Enough already.

Shukri,

In fact I support a growing and angry group who think Mecca should be slagged.

Posted by: shiva “The bottom line: Just because I may worship a God of Goobligooke doesn't mean I am a lesser man or a unbeliever.Just because I may believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn,does not make me a monster
I cannot condone any of the crimes being committed by muslims around the world today and the last 1400yrs in the name of Alllah
I am strongly opposed to Nazism and Islam “

Shiva

I liked your posting. I personally believe that there is more than one path to the golden gate. As far as mono vs. polytheism, I am of the opinion that there is probably just one “God”, but there is many aspects to him. How can any of us truly know for sure. It is a bit like a painting trying to describe the painter. But at any rate, “he” is not limited by his creation, nor by what any of his creations think of him.

Not only do I see the ugliness of society among Islamists. I see it here as well. The disgusting, offensive remarks here are shocking. Some of you, who are intelligent here, sit in silence. The use of tiolet humour, and profanity hopefully does not reflect your intelligence. Many of you are broken records, who constantly complain, but probably do very little but hide behind your desk. Become articulate and lobby congressman, and spread your message in a strategic way, not in a way that will ensure your alienation.

"We should demand that Muslims put their own Koran in toilet water. And if they refuse to do so, we should bomb them. Enough already."

Really? This sounds like the an old Nazi practice of requiring Jews to burn their yamulkes, Torah's and to cut their ear locks and beards.

I have concluded that many of you are no better than Nazi's. Instead of working in a measured way, as Robert or Hugh Fitzgerald would, you reduce yourselves to this kind of discourse. You will never succeed following this path. Islamists will win, and the far left will help ensure its victory.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

May 16, 2005
Who says liberals are not dangous people 17 dead so far how many wonded because they wanted to Damage President Bush??? Remember isaicoff is a BUTT Monkey!!!
http://www.beecy.net/frank/
I know where newsweek got the story and twisted it!!! Remember when they interviewed some of those who worked @ GETMO one soldier who worked there said how dangous these monsters were soldier said they throw feeizes and one Islamic terrorist stuffed his quran down the tolit to cause a flood ?? It was not an American, but an Islamic terrorist who did this!!!
Newsweek is now responsible for every one killed by mulsums!!!

Qur’an 8:49 “When the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: ‘The religion has deceived and misled them.’”

I think this fits for the Islamic terrorist who make war on the people look what ubl[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] saddam[FOUND IN A HOLE DON’T SHOOT I’M A YELLOW COWARD] has brought to the people sader[YELLOW COWARD WHO KILLS MEN IN THEIR HOLY MOSQUE] all have brought death and destruction to the people not life and joy no these who follow the lies like out of newsweek aljerreza will all head for death and the yellow cuse!!
LOOK AT WHAT THESE HYPOCRATES HAVE BROUGHT TO THE FOLLOWERS A YELLOW CURSE!!

REMEMBER THOSE KILLING IN THE STREETS WERE ubl[] followers who were just let out of jail a few weeks ago??
Why did these people take to the streets after they blew up mosques in Pakistaan or Iraq where were these people on they are the followers of the Yellow cursed Coward!!!

Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the people of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease. And for those to whom the Scripture Book has been given, and the believers, there should be no doubt. The unbelievers may say, ‘What does the Lord intend by this?’ The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases, and He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”
This can be broken by Yes it is the Army of the people of the Book who he has chosen to Free [USA] the Iraqi people as it says

He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”

Yes he has chosen the USA!!
TO FREE THE IRAQI PEOPLE FROM THE MONSTER saddam [FOUND IN A HOLE DON’T SHOOT I’M A YELLOW COWARD]

And let’s look at another part?

The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases,

Ubl,saddam,zawari,all who Kill and destroy mankind?

There will be no more warnings?
Earthquake in Iran kills 31,000 who harbors ubls[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] son and wife’s??
And now Locus in Egypt
NOW IF THAT IS NOT TELLING YOU ARE ON THE WRONG PATH NOTHING WILL??
Kazakhstan Blast in mine??
Islamic terrorist- killing Iraqis??
Earthquake in Algeria??
The typhoon in Philippines Remember they ran away from the Fight in Iraq??
http://www.onlypunjab.com/fullstory1104-insight-Pink+Locusts+from+North+Africa-status-15-newsID-503.html
Pink Locusts from North Africa Swarm Through Cairo
Publish Date : 11/18/2004 5:09:00 PM Source : Science and Technology News Onlypunjab.com
Swarms of pink locusts swept through the Egyptian capital on Wednesday, evoking the biblical description of the plagues which struck in the time of Moses.
The swarms of millions flew high above tall towers or swooped down onto treelined streets, where scared pedestrians stamped
on them or ran for cover.
The flying insects arrived from neighboring Libya after devouring the countryside in central and western Africa in past months.
YES I SAY ubl[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] is losing and trying to regain control??
What verses did he say in his rambling and to say about the people of the book??
The people of
the book didn’t lose their crops??
Now Earthquake of mulsum Islands of Indonesia?? 9.3 and afterwards mass killer waves that effect many countries?/
Who is coming to the aid of the people But the Red Cross and India to help the people and Israel and the USA and the Western countries!!

115,ooo, mulsum killed in Indonesia alone?? Whole mulsum towns gone?? And Churches still standing??

We are waiting for the mulsums to help other mulsums?? Or with the entire fund raising they do help people instead of making war??
And now more 6.2 earthquakes in Indonesia?? Because they have sent Islamic terrorist to terrorize the victims of the killer wave??

January 11, 2005 Philippines an 4.3 Earthquake ??
Maybe small there because the fight against Islamic Terrorist??
Was ubls[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] family in Indonesia we know they support Islamic Terrorist??

Qur’an 8:71 “If they try to deceive you,

remember they have deceived Allah before.”
It is not America who is the Deceiver but the Islamic Terrorist Look at what God has done to his Followers Look at Bam, Indoneias, Iraq [NOW HA RUNNING WATER IN HOMES FOR THE FRIST TIME IN HISTORY THANKS TO THE USA NOT sader], Africa [MULSUMS KILLING MULSUMS] no these Islamic terrorist are the deceivers!!!

WHEN WILL WE TURN OVER THE PEOPLE FROM NEWS WEEK???

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO VITROY[FREEDOM] TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM OPEN THE WORLDS EYES TO THEIR THREAT LET NOT THE WORLD BE DECEIVED BY THEM AMEN

Thomas,

It's true that some of us resort to toilet humor to dispel the shock that comes from Islamic states that wish death and destruction upon the rest of mankind who doesn't follow their God, but it's pretty understandable when our very own government seems to bend over backward in accommodating those same individuals and heads of countries who smile to our faces, yet turns around and stabs us in the back with a knife.

The rhetoric you read here, though you call it ugly, is merely the anger at the constant bombardment of evils coming from the Islamic countries. It's anger at feeling that your own country is selling you out. It's anger from the lack of reporting from the general media outlets who, along with our leaders, are bending over and allowing these unspeakable events to take place.

I am proud to live in a country where I can burn any book should I feel the urge or flush it down the toilet, too. The simple fact that there should be a book of any sort that cannot be torn, burned, flushed, stepped on, or used to prop up a coffee table is unbelievable. There is no book that should be held that high, no matter who wrote it.

I think there's actually something to all of the talk, too. I feel that since it is every American's right to flush a Qur'an down the toilet, we should! We should do whatever we can to enrage and enflame the Muslim world and then sit back as they shake their fists skyward. Eventually, as we'll inevitably see on TV, Islam will show it's ugly face and perhaps their anger will someday match ours, the readers of this site.

Tell that to those who parade throughout the streets burning our flag, burning bibles, and chanting 'death to America'. Be sure to let them know that in this country, we're free to do whatever we want with our books and we don't need to kill anybody in the process.

Same here Pegcity, I stopped my subscription a year ago. It is a shame too, after 9-11 it was a really good source for information on the jihad. I looked forward to getting it. Same for Vanity Fair, now it is so left leaning I refuse to read it.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 16, 2005 02:44 PM

ALL THE MORE REASON NEWSWEAK IS RESPONSABLE FOR THE DEATHS THEY KNEW ABOUT WHAT THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST ARE ABOUT AND HOW THIS WOULD BE RECIVED IN THE MULSUM WORLD[WEATHER THEY KNEW WHAT A TOLIT WAS OR NOT] NO NEWSWEAK IS GUILTY! GULITY! GULITY! OF TREAON!!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM[INCLUDING DUMB LIBS WHO GET PEOPLE KILLED]OPEN THE WORLDS EYES GIVE THEM COURAGE TO STAND UP AND FIGHT THIS EVIL AMEN

Look illustr8rg8r:

I completely support everyones right to do what they must with the Qur'an. Readers should consider however that the comments made can be seen by all, including JihadWatch's enemies. Such comments before have been used to denigrate Robert and JihadWatch. So lets be responsible.

We are all angry, as a Muslim I am angry too at the cesspool that Islam is. But why can't that anger be focused properly? Lets analyse intelligently. What I am seeing here is mob mentatlity.

Thomas

Thomas,

I thank you for your comments and your level-headed return comment. I agree that any anger towards the evils happening in the name of religion should be dealt with constructively, but how is it possible? I'd like to believe that most people can be reasoned with and that the mob mentality witnessed here should be constructive rather than destructive, but we're witnessing a mob mentality from those whom we are angered by and the reactions by people posting here is simply a knee-jerk reaction from most, I'm sure.

As a Muslim, what do you suggest? Give us a good, long, hard look into a Muslim's mind concerning how to properly discuss what seems, by most, to be madness? I'm sure that everyone reading here would be delighted to discuss things rationally and remove the toilet talk if it felt or only seemed like there was a realistic way of dealing with the issues at hand.

Thomas - re write your Koran - take out the vilification of infidels in it, and maybe this anger will go away.

What do you think that anger will turn into when some Mufti Cleric Human "Drone" will let off a dirty nuke in the West?

Also - what did you say to the NZ parliment? Is it on Hansard or written down somewhere for all to see?

Thanks

agree that any anger towards the evils happening in the name of religion should be dealt with constructively, but how is it possible?

Very easily. Follow the lead of Robert Spencer and Hugh Fitzgerald. Avoid the use of profanity or insults. Arguments then become devastatingly effective. Using insults and overly broad generalisations weakens arguments. Re-read the approaches of these two men, they say in an intelligible, consiec and anaytical way what most of you/us mean.

Kia ora 3rd time:

Also - what did you say to the NZ parliment? Is it on Hansard or written down somewhere for all to see?

Its on Thusday Morning at 9:30am before the Foriegn Affairs and Trade Seelct Committee. It is a public hearing. Probably a few people from MFAT and NZSIS and maybe some defence people will be there. I am not sure on the Hansard issue. I have also discovered that FIANZ, the New Zealand version of CAIR will be presenting submissions on weakening the Terrorism Suppression Act. I expect the Committee to be very receptive to my submissions. Peter Dunne of United Future is Chair the only real worry will be Keith Locke, who staunchly opposed aspects of the Act. I will give an update Thursday afternoon on how it went. Keep in mind that the Committee issues a report as well, and will likely comment on the submissions and their usefullness.

Cheers
Thomas

Thomas you bag all for the "mob mentality", yet when Taneem, your local "friendly" neighbourhood Muslim was threatening all and sundry here with bashings and death (unless they agreed with him)neither you, nor ia, nor any of the other Muslim posters pulled him into line - despite posting to others.

Your lack of standing up to such Muslims is either epidemic, or alternatively, you secretly do support an Islamic World government, that will trample people's rights. And then you wonder why people here get angry? You "peacful" Muslims say one thing, yet do another. It’s tantamount to Double Speak.

3rdtime:

Not sure where your hostility is coming from. I have always been respectful in my remarks and postings to you. If you think the above remarks (from non-Muslims) are acceptable than perhaps you are being shortsighted. These views, and their vulgarity do not help JihadWatch.
Thomas you bag all for the "mob mentality", yet when Taneem, your local "friendly" neighbourhood Muslim was threatening all and sundry here with bashings and death (unless they agreed with him)neither you, nor ia, nor any of the other Muslim posters pulled him into line - despite posting to others.

The difference 3rdtime is that Tameem, Ia and Shukri represent extreme minority views. And I have gone fater their views on many ocassion, paricularly IA and shukri. I have challenged their ideas, and engaged them on debate on previous threads.

I do not speak in doublespeak. I have been very frank as to my own feelings on Jihad and Islam. Frankly I am tired of being accused of deception. There is no basis for that allegation. My actions and words say otherwise.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Islam is a load of bull…woman don’t have rights…they worship a prophet? etc
And on top of that they start a riot because they “heard that someone supposedly flushed a qurann down the toilet? How many fringing times have I heard them bad mouth the bible and our religion? Do we go around killing people? I don’t think so BUT their religion incites hate towards non muslims therefore they have the right to criticize anyone.

Islam is a load of bull…woman don’t have rights…they worship a prophet? etc
And on top of that they start a riot because they “heard that someone supposedly flushed a qurann down the toilet? How many fringing times have I heard them bad mouth the bible and our religion? Do we go around killing people? I don’t think so BUT their religion incites hate towards non muslims therefore they have the right to criticize anyone.

3rd time:

Your lack of standing up to such Muslims is either epidemic, or alternatively, you secretly do support an Islamic World government. You "peacful" Muslims say one thing, yet do another.

You cannot point to one ocassion where I have done this. I have dedicated myself to fighting this fight on all fronts, and have done so. Please, I beg you point to one time where i have done this. .

There's a difference between sounding like a nazi and being one.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003162.php

islam=cult=fascism=nazi

There's a difference between sounding like a nazi and being one.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003162.php

islam=cult=fascism=nazi

Posted by: butterfly at May 16, 2005 08:06 PM

YOU GOT THAT RIGHT BABY AND PICTURES AND EVERY THING!!! GO LOOK!!

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/AminAlHusseini.htm#_ednref24
Amin Al Husseini In Berlin during WWII
Amin Al-Husseini in Berlin meets [xxiii] with Adolf Hitler [xxiv] and is active in the decision to exterminate all Jews through the infamous Final Solution
Amin Al Husseini Meets Hitler in Berlin During WWII
Hitler was reportedly content with deporting the Jews out of Europe to Palestine. Husseini perceived this as a threat to his stronghold in Palestine and pushed successfully for the extermination of the European Jews.
1941
Christian Serbian Genocide
Husseini’s Personal Project [xxvi]
300,000
Non-Muslim
Deaths
Today…
Amin Al Husseini meets Croat Nazi A.Artukovic and M.Budak during WWII
April 25th. Amin Al-Husseini is made chief architect [xxvii] of Nazi offensive in Bosnia: Serbian-Cyrillic alphabet outlawed. Orthodox Serbs forced to wear Blue armband. Jewish Serbs forced to wear Yellow armband.
While in Bosnia, Amin Al-Husseini takes the title “Protector of Islam”. One hundred thousand (100,000) Bosnian Muslims join the Nazi ranks. They seek Nazi approval to establish autonomous Nazi protectorate for Bosnian Muslims.
Amin Al-Husseini approves the Pejani Plan, calling for the extermination of the Serbian population. Nazi Germany refuses to implement the Pejani plan.
Bosnian ethnic cleansing under Amin al Husseini:
. Orthodox Christian Serbs: 200,000 killed
. Jewish Bosnians: 22,000 killed
. Gypsies: over 40,000 killed
Husseini’s legacy of hatred is a major factor in today’s Bosnia/Herzegovina conflict against the Serbs and their leader Milosevic.
Amin Al Husseini Inspecting His Muslim Troops. 1943.
1943
Nazi Muslims [xxix]
“Cream Of Islam”
Bosnian Muslim Flag Under Amin Al Husseini
Amin Al Husseini creates the Hanzar Division of Nazi Muslim Soldiers in Bosnia, which he calls ‘the cream of Islam’. It becomes the largest division of the Third Reich Army (26,000 men) and participates actively in the genocide of Serbian and Jewish populations. ‘Hanzar’ was the name given to the dagger worn by officers under the Turkish Ottoman Empire. [xxx] Muslim soldiers pledge allegiance to Nazi regime in official statement prepared by Heinrich Himmler, head of SS Nazi troops
Amin Al Husseini Coaching on of his Muslim Nazi Soldier 1943
1943
Prime Minister of Pan-Arab Government
Visits Nazi Death Camp with Head of SS H.Himmler
Amin Al Husseini Meets Chief Commander of Nazi SS: Heinrich Himmler.
Amin Al-Husseini is made Prime Minister of Pan-Arab Government by Nazi regime. His headquarters are in Berlin.
He plans construction of concentration camp [xxxii] in Nablus (Palestine) to implement the “final solution” in Palestine to exterminate the Jews there, as an extension of Hitler’s plan.
Mufti becomes close friend of Heinrich Himmler, Head of SS (Nazi Officers). Amin Al-Husseini is given a private tour of Aushwitz death camp by Himmler[xxxiii], where he insists on seeing first-hand the murder of Europe’s Jews.
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/AminAlHusseini.htm#_ednref33
Nazi View of Islamic Religion
Head of Nazi SS troops Heinrich Himmler stated to Chief of Nazi propaganda Josef Goebbels:
“ [I] have nothing against Islam because it educates the men in this division for me and promises them heaven if they fight and are killed in action. A very practical and attractive religion for soldiers.” [xxxiv]
Islamic Institute in Dresden, Germany
Nazi Islam
Heinrich Himmler, Head of SS, and close colleague of Amin Al-Husseini, financed and established Islamic Institute (‘Islamische Zentralinstitut’) in Dresden under the Mufti. The purpose was to create a generation of Islamic leaders that would continue to use Islam as a carrier for Nazi ideology into the 21st century. [xxxv]
Mufti Addresses Bosnian Muslim Nazi Troops
Amin Al Husseini Inspecting His Islamo-Nazi Troops in Bosnia during WWII.
March 1, 1944. Amin Al-Husseini makes speech from Berlin addressing Muslim SS Nazi troops: “Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, History and Religion. This saves your honor. God is with you.” [xxxvi]
Amin Al Husseini Recruiting Muslims To Serve Nazi Regime.
Arab League and Muslim Brotherhood:
Post-World War II Voice of Amin Al-Husseini
1944-1974
From Amin Al-Husseini to Yasser Arafat

Go to this sight pictures and every thing will open your eyes to the threat we are up against REMEMBER THEY KILLED MORE CHRISTIANS THE JEWS!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM[NEWSWEEK] AMEN

Thomas

You use the "argumentum ad Hitlerem" regularly. What if Nazis were now an increasing global threat, and I said, "we should demand that Nazis put their swastikas and Mein Kampfs in toilet water, etc."? Same difference. The Koran merits no respect. It in fact merits rational revulsion and suppression, just as Mein Kampf would if Nazis were brewing as much deadly pernicious trouble as Muslims are worldwide.

The only people resembling Nazis nowadays are Muslims; and the only people resembling the passive Germans who looked the other way as trains carrying human cargo went through their villages are the "moderate" Muslims.

Great Catherine the hypocrite:

There's a difference between sounding like a nazi and being one.

No one on this cite would not say that about a Muslim who sounded like a Jihadi, spouting of jihadist rhetoric, and how Americans and Jews deserve death or deportation. A Muslim who supports or "sounds like" a jihadist is a jihadist.

Not dissimilarly, those who support the above arguments about forcing Muslims to place their Qur'ans in the toilet, or otherwise killing them are akin to Nazi's who employed similar practices on Jews with respect to yamulkes and the Talmud. If you believe in what the Nazi's did or supprt their practices you are one, just like a Muslim who supports Jihad is a terrorist. Or do you not believe that a Muslim who merely says he believes in Jihad and killing non-believers is a terrorist. Of course you do, and so do I. But to not apply that analagy to the instant scenario is hypocritical.

No there is not, there is an inextrincable link. If you believe or support "nazi ideology" by definition you are a Nazi. Muslims who support Jihad ideology are akin to Nazi's.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Thomas,

I would like to thank you once again. I appreciate your words of caution towards the usage of foul language and insults in discussion and, you are correct that it's more effective for one's argument. We should all follow the guides that Robert Spencer and Hugh Fitzgerald are.

I have been reading through this site and others for awhile, but have only today began writing and posting comments. I guess I was just fed up enough to jump into the mix of things. In my few postings, I have avoided using language that may be detrimental towards my arguments or comments and will continue to do so in the future unless I see some humor in it -let's face it: sometimes the choice is either laugh or cry when faced with the horrors of humanity and some choose the former over the latter. Though filled with some well deserved venom, you've got to admit that BillR throws a few good zingers around.

The sad fact is that as long as we feel that we're banging our heads into a collective wall when dealing with what Islam is today, we will continue to have such debates.

Getting to the matter of the article above and the desecration of the Qur'an (or not if it didn't happen) are they willing to hand over everybody we've ever seen on TV burning a bible? What if everyone on this site uses a Qur'an instead of a toilet brush -are they all coming after us? If you're a Muslim, you're 'in' so are you going to let us in on what's being said in the mosques about what's going to happen in three days when 'it's on'? We may all use that freedom in being able to do whatever with any printed version of whatever book and do whatever we want with it, so how is it possible to argue with people who feel they're superior and they're living by the eternal word of their God ...and it's causing a mess of things with the rest of us?

Though filled with some well deserved venom, you've got to admit that BillR throws a few good zingers around.

Absolutely. Humour is important to get us through this debate. Being confronted with an ideology of hatred and death, humoir presents much needed relief. I just hate to see the site going into the doldrums. I remember PMU's Omid Safi, using reader comments against Robert Spencer. And other critics attacking Robert for reader comments with respect to the Armanious murders. As someone recently said, we are in Robert's "house. Lets behave as house guests. While never keeping our collective minds off of the real goal to show the world the threat that Jihad and Islam pose. But to convince others, we must act intelligently.

If you're a Muslim, you're 'in' so are you going to let us in on what's being said in the mosques about what's going to happen in three days when 'it's on'? We may all use that freedom in being able to do whatever with any printed version of whatever book and do whatever we want with it, so how is it possible to argue with people who feel they're superior and they're living by the eternal word of their God ...and it's causing a mess of things with the rest of us?

We know what is being said in mosques, and it is not good. We have established in New Zealand a Khutbah monitoring project, that is being compiled as we speak. The hatred is immeasurable.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Thomas:

You are making the classic apologist mistakes, and living in the "politically correct" world that has and still is (unfortunately) allowing the evil future that surrounds Islam to envelop more and more of the globe.

You can strive to be polite and gentlemanly all you wish, but this would not save you if you ever fell into the hands of a mob that had just read an article about the "flushing of a Koran" and that mob happened to recognize you as a Westerner at the worst of moments.

You are also so completely wrong about everyone here not *doing* anything about these problems. These discusions *are* doing something -- they are spreading the word, they are causing discussion and argument, they are spreading information and, above all, they are showing truths to at least a portion of the world that you just simply do not get in the mainstream media -- mainly because most media outlets don't want to get firebombed by a random, pissed off Islamist. (I'm sure security costs for the Today Show and its outside spots are big enough already...)

I myself run a Blog with my own out-of-pocket funds to help educate web surfers whenever they happen to stumble into or (gosh!) even return to my site.

Toilet humor? Vulgarities? These are nothing compared to video tapes of Americans getting beheaded with dull knives.

When you've sat through something like that, then you can come back and try to critique us for occassionally blowing off steam with a little slapstick.

Foehammer

When I hear the raging comments here I know there is no action, no mob, and no one dies. They are, for lack of better words, wishing to be rid of the islamic menace. When I hear the jihadist spew, I know they mean it, and given half a chance will carry it out. As many people as possible will die.

There is a difference Thomas, you know it.

You can strive to be polite and gentlemanly all you wish, but this would not save you if you ever fell into the hands of a mob that had just read an article about the "flushing of a Koran" and that mob happened to recognize you as a Westerner at the worst of moments.

I have confronted such mobs, almost to my peril. On 11 Sepetmber 2003, while working for UNHCR in Khartoum Sudan, I confronted mobs of Sufi- and Sunni Muslims 11 September (I lost two friends that day). So I have been there.

You are also so completely wrong about everyone here not *doing* anything about these problems. These discusions *are* doing something -- they are spreading the word, they are causing discussion and argument, they are spreading information and, above all, they are showing truths to at least a portion of the world that you just simply do not get in the mainstream media -- mainly because most media outlets don't want to get firebombed by a random, pissed off Islamist. (I'm sure security costs for the Today Show and its outside spots are big enough already...)

Not enough is being done clearly. And the battle is not being fought effectively enough. Are you lobbying Congressmen, speaking in community centers? Are you are doing is preaching to the converted. I am not saying what you are doing on JW is uselss, but that it needs tobe augmented by real community action. Maybe some are doing so, if so my hat is off to you.

I myself run a Blog with my own out-of-pocket funds to help educate web surfers whenever they happen to stumble into or (gosh!) even return to my site.

What site is this, if you don't mind me asking?

Toilet humor? Vulgarities? These are nothing compared to video tapes of Americans getting beheaded with dull knives. When you've sat through something like that, then you can come back and try to critique us for occassionally blowing off steam with a little slapstick.

I have seen horros in teh Muslim world. I have witnessed a stoning, and I have seen people killed by Muslims. I am keenly aware of what some Muslims are capable of.

Some of the critique is not slapstick. All I am saying is that you should make you point in a more intelligent way.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Thomas, I think you should just leave islam. I am convinced your heart is in the right place and you do want to tame the beast that is islam. Quite frankly, the beast cannot be tamed. You would do well to walk away now and let them stew in their own cess pool.

Thomas - You have never threatend anyone here to my knowledge at JW. Sorry if it sounded like I was infering so.

But again, nothing was said to Taneem - by any of the so called "moderates". Even if things have been posted on previous threads - Taneem should have been pulled into line. Many infidels pulled Taneem in, but no Muslim, it was disappointing.

While the Koran exists Thomas, in its present form, it will continue to incite. Interpreting it is not the answer.

While its only my view, the Koran needs to be publically refuted by all politians as an evil book. Banning it will not make it go away.

I'm not angry at you Thomas, but while the Koran exists, I cannot see how you will succeed in whta you are saying here.

I will await with interest you NZ pariliment thing.

Faie enough 3rdtime, and thanks for clarification. I will let you know how it goes.

TOMMY BOY AND ALL WITH PICTURES!!!

MUSLUM ARMY FOR HITLER!!!

KILLES 100 OF THOUSANDS OF CHRISTIANS!!!

FACTS JUST THE FACTS MAN!!!

YOU GOT THAT RIGHT BABY AND PICTURES AND EVERY THING!!! GO LOOK!!

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/AminAlHusseini.htm#_ednref24
Amin Al Husseini In Berlin during WWII
Amin Al-Husseini in Berlin meets [xxiii] with Adolf Hitler [xxiv] and is active in the decision to exterminate all Jews through the infamous Final Solution
Amin Al Husseini Meets Hitler in Berlin During WWII
Hitler was reportedly content with deporting the Jews out of Europe to Palestine. Husseini perceived this as a threat to his stronghold in Palestine and pushed successfully for the extermination of the European Jews.
1941
Christian Serbian Genocide
Husseini’s Personal Project [xxvi]
300,000
Non-Muslim
Deaths
Today…
Amin Al Husseini meets Croat Nazi A.Artukovic and M.Budak during WWII
April 25th. Amin Al-Husseini is made chief architect [xxvii] of Nazi offensive in Bosnia: Serbian-Cyrillic alphabet outlawed. Orthodox Serbs forced to wear Blue armband. Jewish Serbs forced to wear Yellow armband.
While in Bosnia, Amin Al-Husseini takes the title “Protector of Islam”. One hundred thousand (100,000) Bosnian Muslims join the Nazi ranks. They seek Nazi approval to establish autonomous Nazi protectorate for Bosnian Muslims.
Amin Al-Husseini approves the Pejani Plan, calling for the extermination of the Serbian population. Nazi Germany refuses to implement the Pejani plan.
Bosnian ethnic cleansing under Amin al Husseini:
. Orthodox Christian Serbs: 200,000 killed
. Jewish Bosnians: 22,000 killed
. Gypsies: over 40,000 killed
Husseini’s legacy of hatred is a major factor in today’s Bosnia/Herzegovina conflict against the Serbs and their leader Milosevic.
Amin Al Husseini Inspecting His Muslim Troops. 1943.
1943
Nazi Muslims [xxix]
“Cream Of Islam”
Bosnian Muslim Flag Under Amin Al Husseini
Amin Al Husseini creates the Hanzar Division of Nazi Muslim Soldiers in Bosnia, which he calls ‘the cream of Islam’. It becomes the largest division of the Third Reich Army (26,000 men) and participates actively in the genocide of Serbian and Jewish populations. ‘Hanzar’ was the name given to the dagger worn by officers under the Turkish Ottoman Empire. [xxx] Muslim soldiers pledge allegiance to Nazi regime in official statement prepared by Heinrich Himmler, head of SS Nazi troops
Amin Al Husseini Coaching on of his Muslim Nazi Soldier 1943
1943
Prime Minister of Pan-Arab Government
Visits Nazi Death Camp with Head of SS H.Himmler
Amin Al Husseini Meets Chief Commander of Nazi SS: Heinrich Himmler.
Amin Al-Husseini is made Prime Minister of Pan-Arab Government by Nazi regime. His headquarters are in Berlin.
He plans construction of concentration camp [xxxii] in Nablus (Palestine) to implement the “final solution” in Palestine to exterminate the Jews there, as an extension of Hitler’s plan.
Mufti becomes close friend of Heinrich Himmler, Head of SS (Nazi Officers). Amin Al-Husseini is given a private tour of Aushwitz death camp by Himmler[xxxiii], where he insists on seeing first-hand the murder of Europe’s Jews.
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/AminAlHusseini.htm#_ednref33
Nazi View of Islamic Religion
Head of Nazi SS troops Heinrich Himmler stated to Chief of Nazi propaganda Josef Goebbels:
“ [I] have nothing against Islam because it educates the men in this division for me and promises them heaven if they fight and are killed in action. A very practical and attractive religion for soldiers.” [xxxiv]
Islamic Institute in Dresden, Germany
Nazi Islam
Heinrich Himmler, Head of SS, and close colleague of Amin Al-Husseini, financed and established Islamic Institute (‘Islamische Zentralinstitut’) in Dresden under the Mufti. The purpose was to create a generation of Islamic leaders that would continue to use Islam as a carrier for Nazi ideology into the 21st century. [xxxv]
Mufti Addresses Bosnian Muslim Nazi Troops
Amin Al Husseini Inspecting His Islamo-Nazi Troops in Bosnia during WWII.
March 1, 1944. Amin Al-Husseini makes speech from Berlin addressing Muslim SS Nazi troops: “Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, History and Religion. This saves your honor. God is with you.” [xxxvi]
Amin Al Husseini Recruiting Muslims To Serve Nazi Regime.
Arab League and Muslim Brotherhood:
Post-World War II Voice of Amin Al-Husseini
1944-1974
From Amin Al-Husseini to Yasser Arafat

Go to this sight pictures and every thing will open your eyes to the threat we are up against REMEMBER THEY KILLED MORE CHRISTIANS THE JEWS!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM[NEWSWEEK] AMEN

Catherine:

I am well familiar with the Muslim connection to Nazi's I have carried out written academic work on the topic. I am also awarae that this connectio still exists , particularly with the 3rd position movement. The head of it is Ahmed Huber a Swiss convert to Islam, who is leading teh Naz-Islamic connection today. We have had this discussion before if I recall.

Thomas

Thomas,

Another slug fest, I see.

The latest JihadWatch thread addresses a sermon conducted this past Friday on Palestinian Authority T.V. proclaiming that Muslims will eventually take over the world. Yada. Yada.

While I know that such sermons are routine in that part of the world, I don't know how much of that is tolerated in 'Western' mosques such as the US or NZ.

Will the monitoring project you mentioned be covert?

How about an example or two of statements you've heard at Friday prayers that you feel are inappropriate or even hateful.

What responsibility does a member of a mosque have in controlling the kind of sermons that are given.

In the event that a hateful sermon were in progress, could you actually stand up and say something?

My personal feeling is that such sermons, if challenged regularly, will stop.

I don't know if you would be subjected to persecution by your fellow Muslims if you did that in NZ (a much more exciting challenge for someone in Pakistan, I'm sure).

Don't let 'em get you down.

The John Simpson piece referenced above is back. It shifts places with the other story. Here one minute, gone the next. BBC ONLINE has does this on occasion with inflammatory photos, and, now, with a sickening editorial by a top man in the organization. Obviously, the organization is well aware that the editorial is biased, to say the least, and folks at the top want to push this point of view while minimizing the possibility of criticism that they are violating the terms of their charter. So, here one second, gone the next. Its appears as a ghostly, 'hard hitting editorial', whose visibility is prominent, but hard to catch in building a case against the organization. Very slick, conniving, tactics from one of the largest and most influential news organizations in the world.

IF Newsweek's story were true about some psy-ops
interrogator destroying a Koran, why would they want to publish such a story?

Do they care about the Koran? NO.

Do they worry about the terrorists in Gitmo? NO.

Do they care about the Muslims in general? NO.

Are they trying to undermine the current administration of the U.S.? YES.

Clearly this is the only rationale that works.

Why do they think that endangering American soldiers, aid workers, ambassadors and business people the world over is a risk worth taking to print a 'cheap shot' based on sloppy reporting?

The Newsweek personnel must think that their own children vacationing in Amsterdam or flying to Egypt on summer break from their European finishing schools will not be killed as 'Yankee dogs' during these Islamic riots.

But they endanger all of us as a result of poisoning the atmosphere with such empty-headed unvalidated 'journalistic' bomb-throwing.

However, I'm all for iconoclasm. And if the Koran is made into an idol, it should be smashed.
That's what the Taliban did with the Buddhas in Afghanistan. I don't recall people in the Buddhist countries burning Taliban flags in response and killing people during riots over this desecration.

Why? Because they're same.

Unlike the Muslims who see a 'book' as something so magical and precious that humans should die over its mishandling.

That is the thinking of a lunatic cult.

The only good Newsweek has done, and completely by accident, is to reveal the madness of Islam.

I propose a Bumper Sticker to encourage this trend:

HAVE YOU FLUSHED YOUR KORAN TODAY?

No printed paper is worth human life.

No human ideas of God are worth a single life.

Only madmen think life is less precious than ideas or symbols.

Or Muslims.

P.S. to THOMAS-

I've read the book. I don't like it. I wish you the best in trying to contort to fit its shortcomings a a humane document. I would advise switching to The Book of the Way.

The last person to die over it was to guy who wrote it.

And that was of old age, in a nice mountain cottage, with a half-finished cup of rice wine at his elbow, and a dragonfly poised on his silk sleeve.

Hi PRCS

Will the monitoring project you mentioned be covert?

It was initially, however several of us woy out the actual monitoring have been identified. They know who we are. But that has not stopped hateful sermons. In one city several weeks ago, the Imam defended the handiwork of Musab Zarqaqi saying that he was a hero. In that same sermon, the Imam commented on recent NZ criticism of Islam's tendencies toward wifebeating, that beating your wife was perfectly permissible.

In the event that a hateful sermon were in progress, could you actually stand up and say something?

I have done so. Recently I stood up at Jumah prayer and challenged the Imam on teh assertion that the Prophet Muhammad took his night journey in Jerusalem (the contemporary Muslim view). Some Muslim academics have argued that the journey actually took place in Medina. Such an argument does not prevail because it would undermine all Muslim claims to the Holy Land. Nonethelss, the Qur'an never mentions Jeruslalem (Al quds) instead in mentions al aqsa masjid (which means teh furthest mosque) The furtherst mosque at that time was actually in Mdeina. There was no such mosque in Jeruslae! I was literally chased out!

My personal feeling is that such sermons, if challenged regularly, will stop.

Maybe. But they will be forced underground. Or Imams will shroud their sermons in code speak or double speak (this happens in Cairo all the time because of government monitoring of some mosques).

I don't know if you would be subjected to persecution by your fellow Muslims if you did that in NZ (a much more exciting challenge for someone in Pakistan, I'm sure).

Most Muslims are fairly conservative here. While I have established a good reputation in the community, I am constantly challenged by extremists. I have been threatened on several ocassions, physically.

Cheers mate
Thomas

" I have been threatened on several ocassions, physically."

Cheers mate
Thomas

Be careful, you know they are serious with the threats.

Carolyn2

Right you are.

I have always took those threats lightly, and perhaps I shouldnt. Afterall, I was not born Muslim. Muslims tend to view converts as "lesser Muslims". I am sure if I were an Arab or Indian/Pakistani Muslim saying these things I would probably be in very grave danger.

It was only until recently that I realised how serious I should take these threats. Our home was vandalised last week, with the Arabic phrase riddah, which means apostacy. That really really struck me, and my wife. So I am definitely, now more cognizant of threats.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Thomas, you should walk away from islam now. It clearly is not what you think it is.

Thomas,

Are most of the Muslims in NZ immigrants?

Are any NZ mosques more 'liberal' than the one you've described?

Brass tacks, here:

Are spiteful sermons what the 'average' NZ muslim wants to hear?

Thomas,

Sorry to hear that.

I will say a prayer for you and your family tonight.

Good luck.

Thank you Butterfly, that is most kind.

PRCS:

Are most of the Muslims in NZ immigrants?

Yes, mostly Indian/Pakistaini/Fijian. All of the mosques however are controlled by Arabs and funded by Saudi Arabia (through Da'wa initiatives).

Are any NZ mosques more 'liberal' than the one you've described?

Yes. The mosque in Wellington is fairly liberal for Islamic standards (but probably not by ours). It is more of a diverse community. But the sermons are fairly calm and non-political. The Imam is fairly decent.

Are spiteful sermons what the 'average' NZ muslim wants to hear?

I don't think so. There is a core of course who love to hear it. But most NZ Muslims really do want to steer way from Islamic politics. There is not a huge problem of intergration here. They fit in quite well, generally as opposed to Australia, (where they face a shocking problems with certain groups of Muslims). But if NZ Muslims fail to speak out against such sermons they nly have themselves to blame.

Cheers
Thomas

IE: the story has not been denied. It is probably more than confirmed considering that this incident fits in perfectly with the pattern of abuse and torture that the US international prison system has become reknowned for.

Posted by: Shukri at May 16, 2005 04:34 PM

Americans have a long way to go before sinking to the despicable depths of depravity that come naturally to muslims (via life-long indoctrination in the most virulent ideology ever created by a twisted human mind).

A little perspective would be wise, would it not Shukri? I think Saudi Arabia might hold the dubious distinction of being the most notorious human rights violator. Of course, human rights are forbidden by Islam so that explains why condemned prisoners are beheaded in the public square, always with an avid crowd of bloodthirsty muslims on hand to enjoy the barbaric spectacle.

This will be my last response to your asinine assertions but before I bid you adieu, may I ask why you choose to live in the epicenter of human immorality and wickedness instead of a pious Islamic paradise?

Prof. Jensen on Scarborough Country now. No doubt he will be on the side of the rioters.

Great Catherine the hypocrite:
There's a difference between sounding like a nazi and being one.
No there is not, there is an inextrincable link. If you believe or support "nazi ideology" by definition you are a Nazi. Muslims who support Jihad ideology are akin to Nazi's.

Yours sincerely
Thomas
Posted by: Thomas at May 16, 2005 08:30 PM

DO YOU REALY THINK WE ARE SUCKERS??

TOMMY BOY AND ALL WITH PICTURES!!!
MUSLUM ARMY FOR HITLER!!!
KILLES 100 OF THOUSANDS OF CHRISTIANS!!!
FACTS JUST THE FACTS MAN!!!
YOU GOT THAT RIGHT BABY AND PICTURES AND EVERY THING!!! GO LOOK!!
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/AminAlHusseini.htm#_ednref24
Amin Al Husseini In Berlin during WWII
Amin Al-Husseini in Berlin meets [xxiii] with Adolf Hitler [xxiv] and is active in the decision to exterminate all Jews through the infamous Final Solution
Amin Al Husseini Meets Hitler in Berlin During WWII
Hitler was reportedly content with deporting the Jews out of Europe to Palestine. Husseini perceived this as a threat to his stronghold in Palestine and pushed successfully for the extermination of the European Jews.
1941
Christian Serbian Genocide
Husseini’s Personal Project [xxvi]
300,000
Non-Muslim
Deaths
Today…
Amin Al Husseini meets Croat Nazi A.Artukovic and M.Budak during WWII
April 25th. Amin Al-Husseini is made chief architect [xxvii] of Nazi offensive in Bosnia: Serbian-Cyrillic alphabet outlawed. Orthodox Serbs forced to wear Blue armband. Jewish Serbs forced to wear Yellow armband.
While in Bosnia, Amin Al-Husseini takes the title “Protector of Islam”. One hundred thousand (100,000) Bosnian Muslims join the Nazi ranks. They seek Nazi approval to establish autonomous Nazi protectorate for Bosnian Muslims.
Amin Al-Husseini approves the Pejani Plan, calling for the extermination of the Serbian population. Nazi Germany refuses to implement the Pejani plan.
Bosnian ethnic cleansing under Amin al Husseini:
. Orthodox Christian Serbs: 200,000 killed
. Jewish Bosnians: 22,000 killed
. Gypsies: over 40,000 killed
Husseini’s legacy of hatred is a major factor in today’s Bosnia/Herzegovina conflict against the Serbs and their leader Milosevic.
Amin Al Husseini Inspecting His Muslim Troops. 1943.
1943
Nazi Muslims [xxix]
“Cream Of Islam”
Bosnian Muslim Flag Under Amin Al Husseini
Amin Al Husseini creates the Hanzar Division of Nazi Muslim Soldiers in Bosnia, which he calls ‘the cream of Islam’. It becomes the largest division of the Third Reich Army (26,000 men) and participates actively in the genocide of Serbian and Jewish populations. ‘Hanzar’ was the name given to the dagger worn by officers under the Turkish Ottoman Empire. [xxx] Muslim soldiers pledge allegiance to Nazi regime in official statement prepared by Heinrich Himmler, head of SS Nazi troops
Amin Al Husseini Coaching on of his Muslim Nazi Soldier 1943
1943
Prime Minister of Pan-Arab Government
Visits Nazi Death Camp with Head of SS H.Himmler
Amin Al Husseini Meets Chief Commander of Nazi SS: Heinrich Himmler.
Amin Al-Husseini is made Prime Minister of Pan-Arab Government by Nazi regime. His headquarters are in Berlin.
He plans construction of concentration camp [xxxii] in Nablus (Palestine) to implement the “final solution” in Palestine to exterminate the Jews there, as an extension of Hitler’s plan.
Mufti becomes close friend of Heinrich Himmler, Head of SS (Nazi Officers). Amin Al-Husseini is given a private tour of Aushwitz death camp by Himmler[xxxiii], where he insists on seeing first-hand the murder of Europe’s Jews.
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/AminAlHusseini.htm#_ednref33
Nazi View of Islamic Religion
Head of Nazi SS troops Heinrich Himmler stated to Chief of Nazi propaganda Josef Goebbels:
“ [I] have nothing against Islam because it educates the men in this division for me and promises them heaven if they fight and are killed in action. A very practical and attractive religion for soldiers.” [xxxiv]
Islamic Institute in Dresden, Germany
Nazi Islam
Heinrich Himmler, Head of SS, and close colleague of Amin Al-Husseini, financed and established Islamic Institute (‘Islamische Zentralinstitut’) in Dresden under the Mufti. The purpose was to create a generation of Islamic leaders that would continue to use Islam as a carrier for Nazi ideology into the 21st century. [xxxv]
Mufti Addresses Bosnian Muslim Nazi Troops
Amin Al Husseini Inspecting His Islamo-Nazi Troops in Bosnia during WWII.
March 1, 1944. Amin Al-Husseini makes speech from Berlin addressing Muslim SS Nazi troops: “Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, History and Religion. This saves your honor. God is with you.” [xxxvi]
Amin Al Husseini Recruiting Muslims To Serve Nazi Regime.
Arab League and Muslim Brotherhood:
Post-World War II Voice of Amin Al-Husseini
1944-1974
From Amin Al-Husseini to Yasser Arafat
Go to this sight pictures and every thing will open your eyes to the threat we are up against REMEMBER THEY KILLED MORE CHRISTIANS THE JEWS!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM[NEWSWEEK] AMEN
Posted by: Catherine at May 16, 2005 08:58 PM
Catherine:
I am well familiar with the Muslim connection to Nazi's I have carried out written academic work on the topic. I am also awarae that this connectio still exists , particularly with the 3rd position movement. The head of it is Ahmed Huber a Swiss convert to Islam, who is leading teh Naz-Islamic connection today. We have had this discussion before if I recall.
Thomas
Posted by: Thomas at May 16, 2005 09:04 PM
TOMMY BOY AGAIN YOUR TRUE COLORS ALWAYS SHINE LIKE THE SUN COMES UP EVERY MORNING!!!

AGAIN WE ARE NOT SUCKERS!!!!!!

AND WE IS WISE TO ALL YOUR LIES!!!!

Thomas here is analogous to a good, sincere German man who happened to become an S.S. colonel and member of the Nazi Party, who instead of leaving that obviously evil & degenerate mass movement, continues to be a Nazi, hoping to "reform" it and bring Germans back to what is really good about "Mein Kampf" but which has been "distorted" by a minority of "extremists".

The only moral and productive rationale for someone to remain a Muslim would be to do so under "deep cover", in order to infiltrate it and help to bring Islamonazis to Western justice.

Trying to reform Islam is ridiculous if, as our own Robert Spencer argues, Islam from its very beginning is anti-liberal, irrational, anti-enlightenment, literalistic, apocalyptic, and jihadist.

P.S.: No one here seems to have picked up on how Thomas unfailingly ignores criticisms that go to the heart of Islam, criticisms of Mohammed & the Koran.

You have got to wonder about a person who sticks with islam.

TOMMY BOY AGAIN YOUR TRUE COLORS ALWAYS SHINE LIKE THE SUN COMES UP EVERY MORNING!!! AGAIN WE ARE NOT SUCKERS!!!!!! AND WE IS WISE TO ALL YOUR LIES!!!!

What lies. Tell me on which ocassion I lied? You cannot point to one. I double dare you to. You are a liar and a hypocrite. Again I dare you to show how I have lied.

Why not respond to my earlier argument instead? Are you woman enough. I have read these articles. I am aware of the Grand Mufti and the Nazi-Muslim conection. I have even written on it myself.

So where are the lies? Have I lied about Islam? Have I told you its a happy go lucky faith? Or have I been brutally honest as a Muslim of the threat Islam poses?

your humbly
Thomas

Posted by: metaxy at May 16, 2005 10:18 PM

OH BUT HE DOES OUR TOMMY BOY AND HE LIES SO WELL I MEAN HOW IN AND EARLIER POST HOW HE SLAMS ISLAM THEN SAYES IT MEANS NOTHING??

THE THINGS YOU SAY DO MEAN THINGS!!

JUST GO AND LOOK AT HIS POSTS AND READ ALL THE LIES HE IS IN JIHAD!!!

OR SO HE TELLS US SO WE KNOW THAT MEANS NOTHING HE SAYS TO THE NON-MULSUMS MEAN ANYTHING??

AGAIN TOMMY BOYS JOB IS TO LULUE YOU INTO A SLEEP SO YOU WILL LET THEM IN YOUR DOOR I SAY GET YOUR GARLIC BECAUSE THEY WANT YOUR BLOOD!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunetr
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER AMEN

PS
24 was great!!!

Thomas wrote:

"The head of it is Ahmed Huber a Swiss convert to Islam, who is leading teh Naz-Islamic connection today..."

The Nazi-Islamic connection today is not being "lead" by one person. It is tentacularly widespread throughout the Muslim world, from the concretely specific level of bedfellowship with actual original Nazis (or, since most of them have died of old age, their immediate successors), to the more diffuse but no less pernicious level of fervent sympathy for and inspiration by Nazi propaganda & literature. See this fascinating article by Alexandre del Valle for just a glimpse of the iceberg beyond the tip:

"The Reds, The Browns and the Greens
or:
The Convergence of Totalitarianisms"

http://www.alexandredelvalle.com/publications.php?id_art=131

P.S.: Catherine has good instincts and lots of good info.

P.S.: No one here seems to have picked up on how Thomas unfailingly ignores criticisms that go to the heart of Islam, criticisms of Mohammed & the Koran.

Mentaxy (Do a bout of research first before you make assertions like this):

In my writings I have been honest in my criticism of The Qur'an. I have argued that it is not perfect and full of contraditcions. Read an article I wrote for FPM last year:http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16023

I have also acknowledged that the Prophet did commit horrible crimes against humanity. So what the hell are you talking about? I have addressed these issues, more than almost all Muslims have. So again do your research first.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

OH BUT HE DOES OUR TOMMY BOY AND HE LIES SO WELL I MEAN HOW IN AND EARLIER POST HOW HE SLAMS ISLAM THEN SAYES IT MEANS NOTHING?? THE THINGS YOU SAY DO MEAN THINGS!! JUST GO AND LOOK AT HIS POSTS AND READ ALL THE LIES HE IS IN JIHAD!!!

Okay translation please. Catherine, I am convinced that you are an idiot savant. Again, point to a specific post. Please go to one post and point where I have lied. I have always told the truth on Islam. You are a mindless idiot, you never seem to be able to intelligently debate with anyone.

OR SO HE TELLS US SO WE KNOW THAT MEANS NOTHING HE SAYS TO THE NON-MULSUMS MEAN ANYTHING??

What the hell are you talking about?

Yours sincerely
Thomas

I'm waiting Catherine anxiously. if you can find any post that indicates I have lied. I will renounce my faith in Islam right now in front of everyone here.

Is logic considered a sin in Islam? Can any Muslims on the site verify this?

WHAT LIE????

OUR TOMMY BOY??

We are all angry, as a Muslim I am angry too at the cesspool that Islam is. But why can't that anger be focused properly? Lets analyse intelligently. What I am seeing here is mob mentatlity.

Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 16, 2005 07:22 PM

NOW THEN WHY ARE YOU A MULSUM?? AGAIN I HAVE SEEN YOU WRITE HOW THE qu-ran HAS TO BE CHANGED WELL IF YOU ARE A MULSUM THIS IS A LIE??

YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T WANT TO CONVERT ANYONE IN ANOTHER THREAD BUT IN YOUR NEXT POST DID EXALACTY THAT!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Victory[FREEDOM] to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat LET NOT THE WORLD BE DECEIVED BY THEM AMEN

PS

Went shopping today and the short Skirts were so cute and the new shoes with flowers and the toes will have to be painted will have to shop again tommorow!!!

Thomas
I wonder how many here can agree with you,when you make statements like this:- The difference 3rdtime is that Tameem, Ia and Shukri represent extreme minority views
And then in the same post:- Frankly I am tired of being accused of deception. There is no basis for that allegation. My actions and words say otherwise.
I like many other here are more than tire of being decieved.

WHAT LIE????

OUR TOMMY BOY??

We are all angry, as a Muslim I am angry too at the cesspool that Islam is. But why can't that anger be focused properly? Lets analyse intelligently. What I am seeing here is mob mentatlity.

Thomas

Catherine you idiot in that post (and if you read subsequent and previous posts in this thread) I was arguing that people should remove vulgarity and insults from their posts, and make an intelligent argument like Robert or hugh. How can it be construed that I lie. CAtherien one of the above posters said that all muslikms should be forced to flush down their own quran in the toilet and that failing to do so would result in their death. I find such a statement abhoreent. Maybe you don't. Apparently you don't. But no evidence of a lie...

If I lied, give me a link to it...

We are all waiting...

Thomas
I wonder how many here can agree with you,when you make statements like this:- The difference 3rdtime is that Tameem, Ia and Shukri represent extreme minority views
And then in the same post:- Frankly I am tired of being accused of deception. There is no basis for that allegation. My actions and words say otherwise.
I like many other here are more than tire of being decieved.

I see how that could have been misconstrued. I meant extreme minority views on this site. Not in Islam as a whole. I would predict that 60-70% of Muslims share those views. I should have completed the sentence.

all muslikms should be forced to flush down their own quran in the toilet and that failing to do so would result in their death. I find such a statement abhoreent. Maybe you don't. Apparently you don't. But no evidence of a lie...

If I lied, give me a link to it...

We are all waiting...

Posted by: Thomas at May 16, 2005 10:50 PM

OH TOMMY BOY
HE GOT HIS STATMENT WRONG JUST A ROMMOR TO THOSE WHO HAVE NOT TOLITS COST THE LIFES OF 17 PEOPLE ALL IN THE NAME OF YOUR RELIGIOON BOY IF THAT DOESN'T SAY NAZI WHAT DOES???

AND OF COURSE WE CAN'T FORGET THE MAN IN JAIL FOR THORING A ROCK AT A SIGN IN PAKISTAIN BECAUSE IT HAD SOMETHING WRITTEN ON IT FROM YOUR BOOK ??

OF COURSE THAT IS VERY NAZI LIKE ALL IN THE NAME OF ISLAM AND CAN WE FORGET ALL THE STONINGS IN THE NAME OF ISLAM TODAY ALL YOUR RELIGION???

17 PEOPLE DEAD ON A ROMMOR IN THE NAME OF ISLAM NOT TO PRETTY TOMMY BOY!!!!!

Oh yea your said you would not post again untill you gave your breif or your rally how did that go??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Destroy All Islamic and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds yes to their Threat LET NOT THE WORLD BE DECEIVED BY THEM AMEN

PS
Of course we can't forget the Italian Aid Worker in Afghan kiddnapped today all because of a rommur??

PSS
What about the 1200 dead because some wrote a art. in a newspaper saying I'm sure mo-ham-od would want one of the beautys for a bride all in the name of your religion not a good current record???

Catherine:

The rally, as you may have heard was an absolute failure, a joke. They estimate 50 people turned up, half of which was media. Read Roberts commentary on other threads. FMAT's role was also a joke, as far as I know, no strategic plan was unveiled. But everyone knew the rally would be a failure. I did have higher hopes.

Catherine my point was in response to a remark that all muslims who do not flush their quran down the toilet should be bombed. I said, that was a nazi like practice, because teh nazis often forced Jews to throw their yamulkes, talmuds on the floor, and even required them at times to urinate on them. Thus asking Muslims to do the same is Nazi like. Do you think all Muslims should be required to flush their own holy book down teh toliet?

I have already stated and admitted of teh link betwen Islam adn Nazi's. What is the problem then? We sound like a couplr of broken records!

And still Catherine, I'm waiting you to cite the lies that I have been feeding you, along with a link or quote.

Thanks

Yours sincerely
Thomas

I like many other here are more than tire of being decieved.

Posted by: shiva at May 16, 2005 10:50 PM

You get a Gold Star for the Day!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunetr
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH. WISDOM SIGHT AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM OPEN THE WORLDS EYES TO THEIR THREAT GIVE THE WORLD COURAGE TO STAND UP AND FIGHT THIS EVIL AMEN

You get a Gold Star for the Day!!

Again what deception... What lies? Put up or shut up...

TOMMY BOY IT WOULD PUT AMERICAN PLUMMERS TO WORK!!!!

I WANT ISLAMIC MONSTERS TO STOP THEIR KILLING IN THE NAME OF THEIR BOOK AND YOUR RELIGION!!!

NOW IF WHAT EVER IT TAKES BECAUSE ALL I CAN SEE IS THAT YOU ARE A BUNCH OF KILLERS SO IN MY MIND IT IS BETTER TO KILL THE KILLER SO HE CAN'T KILL THE PEOPLE!!

SIMPLE IS AS SIMPLE DOES AND YOUR PEOPLE SEAM TO BE KILLER THAT IS ALL I SEE!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her Give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Victory[FREEDOM]to Destory ALL Islamic Terrorist and all who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat give the World Courage to Stand Up and Fight them Amen

PS
TOMMY BOY WHAT WOULD YOU CARE ANY WAY DIDN'T YOU SAY THE BOOK NEEDED TO BE CHANGED ANYWAY IF ISLAM WAS TO SURVIVE??

PSS
Short Shirts worth Fighting for!! don't see many of theose in islamic countries???

Whats the point?

Has Islam ever produced any saints? Has it ever produced anyone who was the least bit saintly? Saints are not made by studying scripture, reading books or praying a lot. If that was the case, there would be saints all over the place, but there are not. What muslim of note or rank consistantly acts in a saintly manner...which would/should include a non violent approach to all problems, short of "legitimate" self defense.
Saints, avatars and holy men that are not fakers,
are not saints, avatars or holy men, because they read a book, or believe in a particular philosophy. If God is the ultimate reality, merging (being one with him) leaves all other realities behind...Saints dont become saints because of religion, Catholic included, they become saints in spite of it. Islam does not create saints because it is structured not to do so. An Islamic saint would have to immediatly apostate himself because a real saint, avatar, holy man is a free agent and not a slave. You dont need Islam to become a saint or to be one with the creator, without dying. In fact Islam will prevent you from being "with" God...Praying five times a day may help, but not much as we can see. If you really want to be one with your God, no matter what his name, you have to walk away from Islam and dont look back...

TOMMY BOY IT WOULD PUT AMERICAN PLUMMERS TO WORK!!!!

Well then you better get to it! You have claimed that I have lied and engaged in deception. You can't put your money where your mouth is?

WANT ISLAMIC MONSTERS TO STOP THEIR KILLING IN THE NAME OF THEIR BOOK AND YOUR RELIGION!!! NOW IF WHAT EVER IT TAKES BECAUSE ALL I CAN SEE IS THAT YOU ARE A BUNCH OF KILLERS SO IN MY MIND IT IS BETTER TO KILL THE KILLER SO HE CAN'T KILL THE PEOPLE!!

You said "You are a bunch of killers". Am I a killer as well Catherine? Should we kill the women and the children too? Afterall the children will grow up to be killers wont they? That is one of the most hateful overbroad statements I have ever read on this site. That is the same rationale used by the killers of the Rosewood massacre in Florida.

You have said it all, and made yourself clear. You do think that Muslims should be killed if they fail to stop disbelieving in the Qur'an, because they are just going to kill non-Muslims anyway. So you do support genocide. Thats fine Catherine at elast you are up front about it.

Catherine you don't really support genocide of all Muslims do you? That is what you are saying here. Again I support the killing of terrorists and those who support terror, but you are going to far.

Come on...

Yours sincerely
Thomas

NOW IF WHAT EVER IT TAKES BECAUSE ALL I CAN SEE IS THAT YOU ARE A BUNCH OF KILLERS SO IN MY MIND IT IS BETTER TO KILL THE KILLER SO HE CAN'T KILL THE PEOPLE!!

So when you see a Muslim (or someone whom you think looks like one) walking down the street you see killer automatically. Why don't you have the courage to tell them? I am sure it is much easier to hide behind the computer. Are you a woman of action? Then lobby congress, put the word out. But in your case maybe not, becuase it would be inpossible for a congressman to understand what you write. If you can write, and learn to become analytical than dont preach to me try and actually make our government change to adapt to these challenges!

Thomas...
From Dictionary .com
Genocide...
"The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group..."
Notice it does not include religion...so just who is Catherine refering to?

With all do respect to you Mr.Haidon, you are becoming a bit unhinged by trying to confront the likes of Catherine. I would recommend that you make your points without calling names and let them fall where they may as you have so aptly suggested to us during this comment suggestion. You should no and understand that Americans are great at straight out dark humor no matter what the subject. Its that freedom of expression thing and yes it is disturbing to have an artist put a cross in a bottle of urine.

Mackie:

I was responding to personal insults. And yes I am a bit unhinged, but imagine yourself being accused of deception and trickery and essentially being called a fake. I have always dealt with people respectfully and never used insults. However wehn insulted I will respond in kind. But you are right. Insults are never effective. I have proved that.

duh_swami

You are actually technically correct. Forget the dictionary version. The Genocide Convention and the ICJ cases. Yes religion is outside the scope of the legal definition of genocide. Catherine, instead is arguing for mass extermination of Muslims. But the effcet is the same. At a fundamental level her reasons and frustartion can be understood. I stood in Khartoum while Muslims celebrated 11 Sepetmber. I also lost two friends who worked at Morgan Stanley. I live with that pain every day.

Lets kill terrorists and go after their wupporters. We should not however kill all. That would be akin to genocide.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Mass grave found in the balkins and they weren't mulsun in those graves OH NO THEY WERE CHRISTANS

BREAKING NEWS???

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN

PS
GUESS THE BUG SPRAY WORKED??
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003003.php
August 31, 2004
Sheik: Allah sent giant spiders to combat U.S.
"War is deceit," said the Prophet Muhammad. Evidently, sometimes it's also self-deceit. From WND, with thanks to Ali Dashti:
An Iraqi sheik claims Allah sent giant spiders to the town of Fallujah to help its residents fend off attacks by U.S. military forces.

PSS
Remember it was Russia who tried to tell the west what was going on with the Mulsums killing all the Christians in Serbia?
• Page 10306 • {14/111}
of August, 1992, they refer to "the abominable double game of the Muslims that makes the war in Bosnia even more cruel," pointing out that the bread line massacre was committed by the Muslims. Corriere Della Sera says that: "Everything indicates that the defenders of Sarajevo, the Croats • and the Muslims, organised several attacks against their own citizens in the hope that in this way that they are going to deepen the drama of Sarajevo and the blame will only be cast on the Serbs."
THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please be asked to slow down.
JUDGE MAY: Slow down. Slow down.
THE ACCUSED: [Int.] When we were on good terms, Holbrooke said to me that Izetbegovic managed to play the role of a victim and that he, Holbrooke, called that - I remember his words - "ruthless ingeniosity." However, this not ingenious at all. This is just heartless; sacrificing thousands of his own citizens in order to be able • to accuse the Serbs. I have to rush on. I have a map here. I'll give it to you. Camps for Serbs from 1991 to 1996. They existed at different points in time. Some went on for a longer period of time, some shorter. There were 778 of them altogether; 536 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, 221 in Croatia. And • here is a list of every one of these camps. It includes many pages. There are many crimes that were committed. I won't have time. I won't have time to show this. Many crimes were committed in Croatia before the independence of Croatia was proclaimed, before it was recognised. There is a great number of crimes committed in Bosnia before • the proclamation of independence, before recognition. Please, could you

• Page 10307 • {15/111}
just place these two images on the overhead projector -- or three, perhaps. These two, rather. Take a look at this. Please put these two on the overhead projector. I'm not going to put any other pictures on the overhead • projector. These are crimes from the 26th of March, 1992, in Sijekovac. The units crossed the Sava River and slaughtered the Serbs. Please put the big picture on the overhead projector. That's it. That's what they did. That's what the Mujahedin did, the ones we saw yesterday. And we saw Izetbegovic reviewing them • yesterday. What's the matter? Is it not on the screens?
JUDGE MAY: It's on the screen. Do you want the next photograph shown?
THE ACCUSED: [Int.] But I haven't seen it on the screen. • I only see you on the screen.
JUDGE MAY: It's on our screen. Make sure you've got the right button.
THE ACCUSED: [Int.] All right. All right. You don't want to show this. You don't want to show this to the public.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, it is on our screen.
THE ACCUSED: [Int.] It's not on the screens that the public sees. Right. I see it on this screen now. But this internal screen only. So he is holding a head, the head of a Serb that he cut off. So those are the 20.000 Mujahedin that were brought to the European • theatre of war through Clinton's policy, and most of them remained there

• Page 10308 • {16/111}
and some went to America and to other countries, and they went all around Europe. And then when they start beheading your own people in wars to come, then you will know what this is all about. There are many photographs of major crimes.
JUDGE MAY: The usher is by the overhead projector. Do you want some other photographs shown to us?
THE ACCUSED: [Int.] I don't have time, Mr. May. I have 12 minutes left --
JUDGE MAY: Very well.
THE ACCUSED: [Int.] -- according to your shortened procedure. But I want to say one thing to you. For example --
JUDGE MAY: Let the usher -- there's no need for the usher to remain there. Give the photographs back, if you would, to Mr. Milosevic.
THE ACCUSED: [Int.] Put the other picture on the ELMO, • please, the one with the three heads. Take a look at this, these three heads of Serbs in an ammunition case. They cut off heads. These are the madmen that are doing things like that. And that is what Clinton's policy in Bosnia did. They were assembled in Bosnia. Look at Algeria, which is a Muslim country. How many Muslims, • Algerians, did they kill so far? This has nothing do with Muslims. These are Islamic fundamentalists who are the enemies of the entire world. Not only of Christians or some others but of Muslims as well. You have --
JUDGE MAY: Now, do you want any other pictures shown?
THE ACCUSED: [Int.] I don't have time, unfortunately,

• Page 10309 • {17/111}
for any other pictures, but I do want to say one thing to you, that --
JUDGE MAY: Very well, let the usher take the pictures.

There are many things that are going on that we don’t see or are seeing with a slant our job is to look beyond the slant to see what they[mulsums] don’t want us to see!!

Catherine:

Do you deny calling for the mass extermination of Muslims?

TOMMY BOY I WAS NOT GOING TO GET INTO THIS WITH YOU BUT YOU STARTED CALLING ME NAMES WHY I HAVE NO IDEA IT IS YOUR PEOPLE KILLING PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD IN THE NAME OF YOUR god BUT HERE WE GO??

Qur’an 9:71 “O Prophet, strive hard [fighting] against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be harsh with them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed.”

NO WHEN YOU STARED OFF YOUR STATEMENT TO ME YOU SAID CATHERIN THE HYPOCRITE NOW IN YOUR BOOK THat CALLS FOR MY DEATH??

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”

NOW IN YOUR BOOK IS SIMPLE IT CALLS FOR THE DEATH OF NON-MULSUM AND YES IT IS EASY TO TWIST A SIMPLE MINDED PEOPLE AND YOU AS AN EDCATATED MAN KNOWS THIS!!

Qur’an 4:168 “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”

NOW YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE DIFFERENT BUT I SEE DIFFERENT!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM SRENGTH,SIGHT,WIDOM AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN

PS
I LIKE THIS OUT OF TH qu-ran!!!

http://www.beecy.net/frank/

Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the people of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease. And for those to whom the Scripture Book has been given, and the believers, there should be no doubt. The unbelievers may say, ‘What does the Lord intend by this?’ The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases, and He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”
This can be broken by Yes it is the Army of the people of the Book who he has chosen to Free [USA] the Iraqi people as it says

He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”

Yes he has chosen the USA!!
TO FREE THE IRAQI PEOPLE FROM THE MONSTER saddam [FOUND IN A HOLE DON’T SHOOT I’M A YELLOW COWARD]

And let’s look at another part?

The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases,

Ubl,saddam,zawari,all who Kill and destroy mankind?

There will be no more warnings?
Earthquake in Iran kills 31,000 who harbors ubls[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] son and wife’s??
And now Locus in Egypt
NOW IF THAT IS NOT TELLING YOU ARE ON THE WRONG PATH NOTHING WILL??
Kazakhstan Blast in mine??
Islamic terrorist- killing Iraqis??
Earthquake in Algeria??
The typhoon in Philippines Remember they ran away from the Fight in Iraq??
http://www.onlypunjab.com/fullstory1104-insight-Pink+Locusts+from+North+Africa-status-15-newsID-503.html
Pink Locusts from North Africa Swarm Through Cairo
Publish Date : 11/18/2004 5:09:00 PM Source : Science and Technology News Onlypunjab.com
Swarms of pink locusts swept through the Egyptian capital on Wednesday, evoking the biblical description of the plagues which struck in the time of Moses.
The swarms of millions flew high above tall towers or swooped down onto treelined streets, where scared pedestrians stamped
on them or ran for cover.
The flying insects arrived from neighboring Libya after devouring the countryside in central and western Africa in past months.
YES I SAY ubl[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] is losing and trying to regain control??
What verses did he say in his rambling and to say about the people of the book??
The people of
the book didn’t lose their crops??
Now Earthquake of mulsum Islands of Indonesia?? 9.3 and afterwards mass killer waves that effect many countries?/
Who is coming to the aid of the people But the Red Cross and India to help the people and Israel and the USA and the Western countries!!

210,000, mulsum killed in Indonesia alone?? Whole mulsum towns gone?? And Churches still standing??
We are waiting for the mulsums to help other mulsums?? Or with the entire fund raising they do help people instead of making war??
And now more 6.2 earthquakes in Indonesia?? Because they have sent Islamic terrorist to terrorize the victims of the killer wave??

January 11, 2005 Philippines an 4.3 Earthquake ??
Maybe small there because the fight against Islamic Terrorist??
Was ubls[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] family in Indonesia we know they support Islamic Terrorist??
January 23 6.3 Earthquake in Indonesia??

I hear that extra guards have been posted on the Grapevine raisins??

Thomas "Hamza" Haidon
any comment towhy you are known by this name in NZ

Well Thomas, I'm not in favor of killing all the muslims either...it's unrealistic to begin with, and uncalled for...Never take up the tactics of your enemy...when you do that, they get wise quick and you will be put out of business. This is magic theater for madmen only, you dont have to be mad to be here but it helps...Theater of the mind is creative by definition, so rather than lower myself to depravity and start shooting people, I would rather slip in and out the side door and leave a seed idea here and there. I have no sympathy for terrorists or their ilk...I dont care one twit about Islam, the Quran or any religion, but I do care about the degenerating effect that religions in general, but Islam especially, do to people, in respect to mind bending concepts turned to chaotic or deadly actions.
Allahu Akbar shouted during an unspeakable crime
is the result of mind bending concepts acting on a primitive intellect. This will continue because Islam attracts primitive intellects, and they will be exposed to the same mind numbing calls to violence...and the cycle continues. I dont think this cycle can be broken from the bottom up, only from the top down. Clerics must be held responsible for what they preach...not from us infidels but from the muslim masses...I dont see that happening soon...

cheers ..swami

Posted by: shiva at May 17, 2005 12:23 AM

I am sorry for your losses but you see now we still have to Fight . I know it does not take the Sting away?? ;)

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who FIGHT with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Destroy ALL islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Let NOT the World be Deceived by them Amen

Well, it will be a long time before the Afghan imams get the word that

NEWSWEEK ***REALLY AND DELIBERATELY***LIED
SIXTENN MUSLIM PEOPLE REALLY DIED!

WHy not make Newsweek print its retractions every week for the next year?

Write to every advertiser and suggest:

Dear Sir:

It is with heavy heart that I must inform you that I will be seeking alternative sources for your product. Your continuing to advertise in _Newsweek_ after its scandalous refusal to show true remorse and make amends for a false report that endangers the lives of American service personnel abroad and has already cost sixteen lives in foreseeable rioting that erupted in more than one Islamic country tells me that you share the publication's contempt for human life.

I'll buy again when you either cancel your support of _Newsweek_ or go into receviership.

Signed--------------

Well Catherine, apart from the fact that I wish you'd learn to spell, I appreciate your pointing out that it was a detainee who actually did the flushing. Whereas my Qur'an is used for reference, it seems that people who claim to see the thing as holy treat it with contempt.

KC--Against whom I am seething with righteous, never-ending, spewing-fire-from-the-pulpit-each-Sunday American rage over what his British countrymen and their Canadian running dogs did to Washington in the War of 1812; and who, I am sure, is seething with similar eternal rage against our colonial rebellion; since these events were far more recent than the Crusades (BLAAAAAPPPPP!!!! SARCASM! SEE? WE CAN THINK LIKE THE MIDDLE EAST, TOO, IF WE REALLY WANTED TO!)-- Since you report on the Tsunami coming after a long spate of anti-Christian riots and burnings in Indonesia, I note as well that it hit Aceh worst--Islam's gateway into the archipelago and its most fervent hotspot there. It does make me wonder.

Shiva--polytheism is fun only because it hasn't been a viable option in the West for well over a millennium. Read about the end of Socrates.

Catherine:

I insulted you because you decided to call me a liar and a deceiver first, out of the blue. Should I respond instead with candy and flowers? Catherine, as I mention below, I am really honestly impressed by your attempt to interpret ayat 74:31, if only all Muslims saw it this way. If Muslims could interpret the entire Qur'an the way you do, we would not be in the mess we are in today...

IT IS YOUR PEOPLE KILLING PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD IN THE NAME OF YOUR god BUT HERE WE GO??

Not all Muslims are killing. In fact most are not. Th e real problem is that those who are not doing the killing are not speaking out against those that do. And many may be afraid to, because if they do speak out they could die. Even in teh West.

NOW YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE DIFFERENT BUT I SEE DIFFERENT!!!

You have cited verses from the Qur'am that I agree are problematic and od lead terorists to do what they do. I am a contextualist not a textualist. When Muslims move away from a textualist approach we may see some change. But yes Catherine these ayat don't convey a warm cuddly feeling toward non-Muslims thats for sure.

Catherine I actualy really your usage of ayah 74:31. You are developing your own tafsir. It would be great if Muslims saw this ayat the way you do. If Muslism woke up and chose to, they could use the Qur'an against terrorists...

Consider my insults withdrawn...

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Thomas "Hamza" Haidon

I adopted the Muslim name Hamza Mohammed upon my conversion in 2001.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Catherine:

Do you deny calling for the mass extermination of Muslims?

Posted by: Thomas at May 17, 2005 12:01 AM

I CALLED FOR PUTTING PLUMERS TO WORK NOW HOW DOES THAT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH MAS KILLING HAVE YOU BEEN DRINKING LIQUAR TOMMY BOY??

Part of the American Tribe and All who Fight with her give them STRENGTH,WISDOM,SIGHT, AND COURAGE to Destroy ALL islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen

PS
TOMMY BOY YOU DIDN'T ANSWER YOUR DEATH THREAT??

TOMMY BOY I WAS NOT GOING TO GET INTO THIS WITH YOU BUT YOU STARTED CALLING ME NAMES WHY I HAVE NO IDEA IT IS YOUR PEOPLE KILLING PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD IN THE NAME OF YOUR god BUT HERE WE GO??

Qur’an 9:71 “O Prophet, strive hard [fighting] against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be harsh with them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed.”

NO WHEN YOU STARED OFF YOUR STATEMENT TO ME YOU SAID CATHERIN THE HYPOCRITE NOW IN YOUR BOOK THat CALLS FOR MY DEATH??

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”

NOW IN YOUR BOOK IS SIMPLE IT CALLS FOR THE DEATH OF NON-MULSUM AND YES IT IS EASY TO TWIST A SIMPLE MINDED PEOPLE AND YOU AS AN EDCATATED MAN KNOWS THIS!!

Qur’an 4:168 “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”

NOW YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE DIFFERENT BUT I SEE DIFFERENT!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM SRENGTH,SIGHT,WIDOM AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN

PS
I LIKE THIS OUT OF TH qu-ran!!!

http://www.beecy.net/frank/

Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the people of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease. And for those to whom the Scripture Book has been given, and the believers, there should be no doubt. The unbelievers may say, ‘What does the Lord intend by this?’ The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases, and He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”
This can be broken by Yes it is the Army of the people of the Book who he has chosen to Free [USA] the Iraqi people as it says

He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”

Yes he has chosen the USA!!
TO FREE THE IRAQI PEOPLE FROM THE MONSTER saddam [FOUND IN A HOLE DON’T SHOOT I’M A YELLOW COWARD]

And let’s look at another part?

The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases,

Ubl,saddam,zawari,all who Kill and destroy mankind?

There will be no more warnings?
Earthquake in Iran kills 31,000 who harbors ubls[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] son and wife’s??
And now Locus in Egypt
NOW IF THAT IS NOT TELLING YOU ARE ON THE WRONG PATH NOTHING WILL??
Kazakhstan Blast in mine??
Islamic terrorist- killing Iraqis??
Earthquake in Algeria??
The typhoon in Philippines Remember they ran away from the Fight in Iraq??
http://www.onlypunjab.com/fullstory1104-insight-Pink+Locusts+from+North+Africa-status-15-newsID-503.html
Pink Locusts from North Africa Swarm Through Cairo
Publish Date : 11/18/2004 5:09:00 PM Source : Science and Technology News Onlypunjab.com
Swarms of pink locusts swept through the Egyptian capital on Wednesday, evoking the biblical description of the plagues which struck in the time of Moses.
The swarms of millions flew high above tall towers or swooped down onto treelined streets, where scared pedestrians stamped
on them or ran for cover.
The flying insects arrived from neighboring Libya after devouring the countryside in central and western Africa in past months.
YES I SAY ubl[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] is losing and trying to regain control??
What verses did he say in his rambling and to say about the people of the book??
The people of
the book didn’t lose their crops??
Now Earthquake of mulsum Islands of Indonesia?? 9.3 and afterwards mass killer waves that effect many countries?/
Who is coming to the aid of the people But the Red Cross and India to help the people and Israel and the USA and the Western countries!!

210,000, mulsum killed in Indonesia alone?? Whole mulsum towns gone?? And Churches still standing??
We are waiting for the mulsums to help other mulsums?? Or with the entire fund raising they do help people instead of making war??
And now more 6.2 earthquakes in Indonesia?? Because they have sent Islamic terrorist to terrorize the victims of the killer wave??

January 11, 2005 Philippines an 4.3 Earthquake ??
Maybe small there because the fight against Islamic Terrorist??
Was ubls[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] family in Indonesia we know they support Islamic Terrorist??
January 23 6.3 Earthquake in Indonesia??

I hear that extra guards have been posted on the Grapevine raisins??

I am sorry for your losses but you see now we still have to Fight . I know it does not take the Sting away?? ;)

cheers catherine

TOMMY BOY YOU DIDN'T ANSWER YOUR DEATH THREAT??

The death threat was unreal. As a convert, I never really took this sort of thing seriously. But when it happened it puts things in perspective. I suspect I know who did it. I have left it in the police hands. And have decided to lay low for a bit. A wise chice I reckon...

Dennis Prager's article on the flushing story, Dennis is right-on.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20050517.shtml

THANKS TO metaxy NOW WE HAVE TOMMYS OWN WORDS IF YOU LOOK TO THE THREAD ON JW WHERE THIS IS EXACTLY WHY HE SAID HE CONVERTED BECAUSE HE DIDN’T SEE THAT THE ONCE AWEEK AND IHOP AFTER WARDS WAS ENOUGH FOR HIM SO THAT WAS A LIE IF YOU GO TO THAT THRAE THEN YOU WILL SEE THE LIES I CAUGHT HIM IN AND THEN THE NAME CALL TONIGHT MORE LIES I HAD NOT EVEN RESPONDED TO HIM BEFOR HE CALLED ME A NAME HE RESOPNDED AFTER I POSTED MY FRIST POST ABOUT NAZIS WHO WERE MULSUMS DURING WW2??

http://www.alexandredelvalle.com/publications.php?id_art=131

FP: Ok, let’s follow Mr. Haidon’s guidance and look for some possible solutions.

But let’s first face the facts: many converts to Islam in the West are usually extremely unstable and estranged people looking for some kind of anti-Western cause or rigid discipline. Almost every time you hear one of them explaining why they converted, you hear things like, “Christianity didn’t do it for me. You only have to go to Church once a week and you are ok. In Islam, you have to pray five times a day and it gives you a structure for the entire day, I was told exactly when and how to eat, when to wash my hands and how to wash them. . . ” etc.

I must admit, these explanations by converts to Islam always horrify me and cause me a lot of dissonance, as I have lived all my life trying to avoid rules. The less rules the better. That’s another story, of course, but my point is that it appears that many of these people are out of control and need some kind of strong despotic authority that they can submit their individual will to; this new totality, stern father figure, will lead them, order them what to do, etc.

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM OPEN THE WORLDS EYES TO THEIR THREAT LET NOT THE WORLD BE DECEIVED BY THEM AMEN

THANKS TO metaxy NOW WE HAVE TOMMYS OWN WORDS IF YOU LOOK TO THE THREAD ON JW WHERE THIS IS EXACTLY WHY HE SAID HE CONVERTED BECAUSE HE DIDN’T SEE THAT THE ONCE AWEEK AND IHOP AFTER WARDS WAS ENOUGH FOR HIM SO THAT WAS A LIE IF YOU GO TO THAT THRAE THEN YOU WILL SEE THE LIES I CAUGHT HIM IN AND THEN THE NAME CALL TONIGHT MORE LIES I HAD NOT EVEN RESPONDED TO HIM BEFOR HE CALLED ME A NAME HE RESOPNDED AFTER I POSTED MY FRIST POST ABOUT NAZIS WHO WERE MULSUMS DURING WW2??

Catherine:

Okay count to ten. Explain like an adult, how I have lied. Or maybe mentaxy can... I just cannot understand your incoherent post.

How did I lie about my conversion? I converted primarily because of my study and research into Islam, and because I felt, at the time, that Islam seemed to be greater submission to God.

Again provide a link... if you can...

But let’s first face the facts: many converts to Islam in the West are usually extremely unstable and estranged people looking for some kind of anti-Western cause or rigid discipline. Almost every time you hear one of them explaining why they converted, you hear things like, “Christianity didn’t do it for me. You only have to go to Church once a week and you are ok. In Islam, you have to pray five times a day and it gives you a structure for the entire day, I was told exactly when and how to eat, when to wash my hands and how to wash them. . . ” etc.

I must admit, these explanations by converts to Islam always horrify me and cause me a lot of dissonance, as I have lived all my life trying to avoid rules. The less rules the better. That’s another story, of course, but my point is that it appears that many of these people are out of control and need some kind of strong despotic authority that they can submit their individual will to; this new totality, stern father figure, will lead them, order them what to do, etc.

Wait a second. Are you attributing the above quote to me? This is a quote from Jamie Glazov at FPM! Take a look at the actual article! Catherine and mentaxy shame on you!

Here is the link:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14358

Turn them over? Yeah, right. In your dreams, you cross-eyed, inbred, rugpilot/jokers.

Here is the complete paragraph you cite:

FP: Ok, let’s follow Mr. Haidon’s guidance and look for some possible solutions.

But let’s first face the facts: many converts to Islam in the West are usually extremely unstable and estranged people looking for some kind of anti-Western cause or rigid discipline. Almost every time you hear one of them explaining why they converted, you hear things like, “Christianity didn’t do it for me. You only have to go to Church once a week and you are ok. In Islam, you have to pray five times a day and it gives you a structure for the entire day, I was told exactly when and how to eat, when to wash my hands and how to wash them. . . ” etc.

I must admit, these explanations by converts to Islam always horrify me and cause me a lot of dissonance, as I have lived all my life trying to avoid rules. The less rules the better. That’s another story, of course, but my point is that it appears that many of these people are out of control and need some kind of strong despotic authority that they can submit their individual will to; this new totality, stern father figure, will lead them, order them what to do, etc.

It isn’t a big surprise, therefore, why these individuals often end up being extremists and involved in terror, right? Because the whole disposition that leads them into conversion in the first place is the yearning for totalitarianism and the brutal display of power (along with the desire to wage war on their own society and environment), and if they are attracted to totalitarianism and the brutal display of power, then we must consider why it is that they go to Islam.

So we have to change what attracts these people to Islam. Then that means we need to change Islam. But how do we change Islam yet allow it to remain Islam?

Here is how I came to Islam according to the article:

My path to Islam began in 1996 with my first trip to Cairo, Egypt for an Arab League conference. During this trip I had some extensive exposure and meetings with moderate Muslims, and this developed my interest in studying Islam further from a comparative perspective.

Upon returning to the States, I began to study classical sources of Islam and medieval Islamic history, while pursuing a degree in politics and law. The more I learned, the more I realised that the foundation and values of Islam were very similar to my own religion. Indeed, this was quite a surprise to me, as I had initially adopted quite an orientalist perspective on Islam.

In May of 2001, I returned to Cairo to study Islamic jurisprudence. After several years of study, I felt I was ready to take "shahada" (the testification of faith). I did so at the Al-Azhar Institute in the presence of friends and colleagues.

It was a new beginning for me. I remained in Cairo for the remainder of the summer, and had a very close group of moderate Muslim friends. Nonetheless, it was not before long, before I began to notice political influence placed on me by other Muslims, to adopt rather Islamist views.

TOMMY BOY YOU ARE TO EASY!!

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/006117.php
TOMMY
I said you have a hard road!
If you want to change mulsums so do I I want to live in peace with my neighbors sounds like you do.
BUT and that is what we always come back to is that big BUT . That BUT always involves the killing of non-mulsums somewhere in the world.
You say you want to stop the monsters in islam hows that fight going?
The thing is there will always be some monster who comes along who brings the ugly things to the top and gets the mulsums to want to kill non-mulsums!
even in that book they were killing people today in it's name?? people in a school roited and killed now who wants people like that for neighbors??
Are the Iraqis Fighting hard for FREEDOM and the monsters take their mosques and tell them it is their duty to kill themself.
You have histoy against you you say if you can't change it think again the monsters won't let you leave it??
are you here to chane those minds who are not mulsum or keep an eye on us or change the hearts of the next mulsum??
Every one here wants you to win the fight you have talked about here.
We all have our doughts but want you to win for the change that needs to happen
if you have come here for a pat on your back well you have that.

BUT TOMMY YOU KNOW THIS JUST AINT RIGHT!!
There is absolutely nothing about these central tenets of Islam that is inconsistent with Western society, and in fact the second third and fourth are synonymous with essentially all organised religions. Sadly, due to the politicization of Islam I often feel that these central tenets of Islam have been de-emphasised. Also, there is an utter obsession among many Western converts with the notion of the eventual formation of an Islamic state, within the Western state they are in!
SHORT SKIRTS FOR ONE AND I WONT GO ANY FATHER!!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squiller Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat let not the World be Deceived by them Amen
Posted by: Catherine at May 12, 2005 12:41 AM

Catherine and mentaxy:

I am eagerly awaiting your response to this one. You made a mistake in attributing those remarks to me. You are so obsessed with trying to catch me in something that you have stumbled in your own irrationality and stupidity. Whay are you so obsessed? It really shows your hatred of all Muslims.

Catherine:

Read the whole exchange from the article itself. I was not referring to Islam as a whole but the five pillars. You mooitted the immediately preceding paragraph which stated:

Islam can certainly give people that structure if they so desire. However, at a personal level I believe that the classical sources of Islam provide merely a general guide to life. There are too many inconsistencies between the Medinan and Meccan surah's for every ayat of the Quran to be taken literally. It is a general guide. What is important, essential, ARE THE FIVE PILLARS: the testification of faith, prayer, charity, fasting during Ramadan, and pilgrimage to Mecca (if possible).

There is absolutely nothing about these central tenets of Islam that is inconsistent with Western society, and in fact the second third and fourth are synonymous with essentially all organised religions. Sadly, due to the politicization of Islam I often feel that these central tenets of Islam have been de-emphasised. Also, there is an utter obsession among many Western converts with the notion of the eventual formation of an Islamic state, within the Western state they are in!

I have spoken to many converts and this is one of the most commonly shared beliefs, that they have an obligation to work towards the propagation of Islam in order to form an Islamic state. This is frightening to me. I often respond by asking them if they can point to an Islamic state in the last two of three centuries (even before that) that can be considered "just" in terms of human rights, and relations with non-Muslims.

Generally they cannot. Amusingly and disturbingly, some point to Iran as the beacon of a democratic Islamic state. I also certainly believe that a strong argument can be made that secularism is permitted under the Qur’an and Sunnah certainly outside the scope of this dialogue.

In response to Jamie’s question: "But how do we change Islam yet allow it to remain Islam?" Of course we have bandied about the term "reform". Reform though, is change. As Christianity and Judaism underwent significant reform, its fundamental tenets did not change as to render it to a different belief structure. It’s still Judaism and Christianity, simply modernized and improved to reflect society. Islam will still be Islam under serious reform.

CATHERINE:

Note I did not say Islam, I only said the five pillars which to remind you are prayer, fasting, testification of faith, almsgiving and pilgrimage. And nothing is inherently inconsistent with these with Christinaity. In fact Catholics undertake similar undertakings...

Sorry Catherine for my spelling, I have been hanging out with you too much. The second sentence the word should be ommitted. My apologies.

Thomas

I read your FrontPage essay. It would be intellectually interesting were the stakes not so deadly.

My succinct impression: Close but no cigar.

Secondly, and closely related to my impression is that you walk a fine line between "lying" as Catherine puts it, and being disingenuous. Now, being intelligently disingenuous would be merely annoying, were the stakes not so deadly. (Another possibility is that your Islamically correct compulsion to regard the Koran as "the undisputed word of God, full stop" coupled with your modern Western Catholic (and hence rational and humanistic) enculturation leads you to naive contortions of logic...)

At any rate: first of all, when I wrote that "[n]o one here seems to have picked up on how Thomas unfailingly ignores criticisms that go to the heart of Islam, criticisms of Mohammed & the Koran", I of course was referring to your many written comments here on jihadwatch interchanges, among which have been many that completely ignore criticisms of the Koran and Mohammed (and none which address them as far as I have seen).

You then wrote to me, with reference to your FrontPage essay: "In my writings I have been honest in my criticism of The Qur'an. I have argued that it is not perfect and full of contraditcions."

Now, this assertion of yours, that you have argued that the Koran is 1) not perfect; and 2) full of contradictions is -- if we are to use your FrontPage essay -- disingenuous. And in our current situation of a violently percolating global Islam + an ignorant Western Left still largely in control of the cultural & educational airwaves, disingenuity is simply unacceptable from a spokesman for a "moderate Islam". While a Catherine can be at times idiotic, I am fervently sympathetic to her Oriana Fallaci-type rage and pride. In our current situation, we must treat apologists and spokespersons with the same no-nonsense critical rigor as the audiences of the famous Apollo Theater in Harlem, New York, treat auditioning acts of singers and dancers: if the singer or dancer makes the slightest wrong move, the audience hoots and hollers, and the old Vaudevillian shepherd's crook comes out from behind the curtains to whisk the performer off the stage where he or she has failed to cut the mustard: full stop. No ifs, ands or buts.

Why do I say you were being disingenuous? Because in your FrontPage article, it is not the Koran itself that is imperfect: it is primarily human interpreters who through their sinfulness have misinterpreted the Koran -- and secondarily, you appeal to the inherent "complexity" of the Koran. But the absolute divinity of the Koran remains for you intact: "full stop". The Koran itself, thus, is not imperfect in your eyes. So you have NOT ever "argued that it is not perfect" -- except in a clever way that assertion may be interpreted, as arguing that human interpreters of the Koran have made it imperfect.

You do come quite close to the old cigar, this is true: "...the fact that the written Qu'ran has been tampered with and reordered by men, with certain verses omitted should indicate that our holy scripture as codified by man, may not be as perfect as we might think." But when this concession is juxtaposed to such assertions that "the revelation from God to Muhammad is "perfect" " and that it is "the undisputed word of God, full stop", one would have to conclude that you are employing modern Western philosophical mumbo-jumbo ("complexity") to have your cake and eat it too.

While you come closer to the cigar than Stephen Schwartz does, when you reach further back into Islamic history to try to palpate just what went so horribly and massively wrong with the transmission of this Perfect Revelation from God -- alluding to "the misguided interpretation of the Qu'ran and more importantly [...] the mis-application the Sunnah..." as well as the "so-called "Rightly-Guided Caliphates", and the political power mongering in between, [which] should be seen as the primary catalyst for this politicization and corruption of Islam..." -- we again must conclude you are simply not doing enough. And you are doing this insufficient labor too sophistically, trying to surgically cut fine points without pursuing the implied logic of your healing surgery back to the very heart of the problem: Mohammed and the Koran itself. (Similarly, you can say that Mohammed did "horrible" things but still surgically try to preserve his sanctity of being a "vessel" for God's infallible word, etc. etc. ad nauseam.)

You are trying to perform a too-subtle operation of preserving & recovering some pristine ahistorical Divine Koran while at the same time historicizing the massive problems and evil it has inspired. In the context of a sedate conference room at a Bernard Lewis seminar, this might be an intellectually interesting pursuit. In our present concrete context of evil, genocidal, apocalyptic, war-mongering Islamonazis, it is simply unacceptable sophistry: So...

GET OFFA DA STAGE!!!

Thomas-

With all of the pleasant faiths in the world to choose from, from the harmless Jains and peaceful Buddhists to the nature-loving Taoists and many earth-respecting native American creeds, why you would settle for an argumentative, patriarchal, militant, world-conquering, women-scorning and essentially humorless sect as Islam is curious.

Identity grows from the kernel of the heart.

We chose the coloration of the world that suits our spirit.

But, our human hope is that we can shed our old selves the way a snake sloughs its skin.

Molt meta-muslim and be merry.

Thomas:-

1) If those threats and break in happened to you - be careful. I have had friends in Australia terrorised by Muslims. It can result in death. If you stood up to mobs - then you are either brave, mad, insane, or maybe a little of all three! Islamic hit squads do exist in the West. So I am genuine when I say "be careful".

2) Like I said before - while the Koran exists - so to will terror, especially when it is continually held up by world leaders. Interpretet all you like Thomas. People are individuals, and the book is written in a literal way, and in poetic language of the culture of the day. While it exists, so to will terror.

Have you ever heard of a Daniel Shayesteh? (he was a true Muslim who held office in Iran under the Islamic state. He is now a Christian, as is his family, which is a turn around as all he wanted to do was kill Jews and Christians - as did his wife)

He has done up an excellent book, showing how Islam has borrowed a bit of Christianity, a bit of Judaism, and a bit of Zoroaster. Comming from an ex fundamentalist, and an Iranian - not western - perspective makes for a very interesting read.

Yes Big Sleep, in Thomas' apparent construction of a New Agey "Islam Lite", he will have come up with something that not only bears little resemblance to the original & current versions, but which also comes conveyed through a sociocultural medium of astounding hostility to both intellectual evolution and to epistemological tolerance.

Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism have proven themselves to be far more amenable, than has Islam, to the modern adventure of the freedom of humans to search and inquire as mature adults into the existential questions that each individual owns as a creature beloved by his and her Creator.

Thomas could easily have his nice Five Pillars and cease being a Muslim! (Of course, Mecca would have to be universalized and cease being obsessively & tenaciously regarded as a sacred space in the framework of the literalizing, tribalistic, territorialistic, medieval barbarian mentality that inaugurated that particular cult; it would be difficult, but not impossible to open one's mind thusly -- once one leaves Islam, that is...)

-- I meant to include Judaism among the good religions that have, unlike Islam, learned to grow up and participate in the progress of the Family of Man.

Thomas
You still have not answered
How can you,a person,who can read and write,be a moslem,knowing that MOHAMMED CREATED AS A CULTIST,GATHERED A FLOCK OF SHEEP TO SHEAR,AND TO RAPE,PLUNDER AND KILL TO SATISFY HIS PERVERTED BLOODLUST?
What has the koran/islam got to offer that the bible or another faith fails to offer?

Kepha;

Our country, (in which you are currently residing) shall be returning to us shortly.

We know how to quash rebellion and insubordination.

Pay the tax and surrender.

Regards,

Kc

Catherine said - "Went shopping today and the short Skirts were so cute and the new shoes with flowers and the toes will have to be painted will have to shop again tommorow!!!"

That's really funny man. Everytime "Catherine" says something like that it makes me wonder if "she" isn't really a 56 year old male truck driver from Orange New Jersey or something. Know what I mean?

Dear JWers (Jihad Watchers)

Don't be fooled by this "Tommy Boy" (Thomas). A good one Catherine.

SPEAK UP AND SPEAK OUT.

We have reasons to be indignant. Our disgust is justified.

Tommy here just wants us be silent or polite like good submissive dhimmis should. You see he wants us dhimmis to not be angry or complain or retaliate to all the evil that is going on due to islam.

You see Tommy there is a difference between people here and the Muzis (Muslim Nazis). They hate us and are angry for no reason. People here are just taking issue with that.

And that unproven allegation about the Unholy Koran (how can it be holy when it calls the subjucation of non-muslims for example) being flushed down the toliet is just a pretext. Its just another excuse. They have been hating America and everyone else even before the war on terror. Its been going on since the begining of Islam in fact.

Oh and Shiva, a good question.

Please don't use _uzis it offends the feelings of the followers of Islam,we must be polite and ignore this
http://palestinename.com/nazi_jihad.jpg
Or they may go into hiding and not answer questions
http://www.wackedup.com/Rants/head%20up%20ass.jpg
Such as what I asked earlier
Thomas
You still have not answered
How can you,a person,who can read and write,be a mosleym,knowing that MOHAMMED CREATED AS A CULTIST, A FLOCK OF SHEEP TO SHEAR,AND TO RAPE,PLUNDER AND KILL TO SATISFY HIS PERVERTED BLOODLUST?
What has the koran/islam got to offer that the bible or another faith fails to offer?
What makes this book more Superior?
http://www.sacredcowburgers.com/parodies/islamic_truth.jpg
And here is a good what the good book can be used for
http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/JihadProselytizing-X.giftruth.jpg

Robert,
Can I use the word Mosleym,

Just in case link dont work
regard
shiva
http://palestinename.com/nazi_jihad.jpg
http://www.wackedup.com/Rants/head%20up%20ass.jpg
http://www.sacredcowburgers.com/parodies/islamic_truth.jpg
And here is a good what the good book can be used for
http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/JihadProselytizing-X.gif

Shiva:

How can you,a person,who can read and write,be a mosleym,knowing that MOHAMMED CREATED AS A CULTIST, A FLOCK OF SHEEP TO SHEAR,AND TO RAPE,PLUNDER AND KILL TO SATISFY HIS PERVERTED BLOODLUST?
What has the koran/islam got to offer that the bible or another faith fails to offer?
What makes this book more Superior?

I will not justify my faith to you. I have the freedom to believe what I chose. If you had an ounce or even a shred of intelligence you would see that I do not view Islam as superior.

Thomas

And you are doing this insufficient labor too sophistically, trying to surgically cut fine points without pursuing the implied logic of your healing surgery back to the very heart of the problem: Mohammed and the Koran itself. (Similarly, you can say that Mohammed did "horrible" things but still surgically try to preserve his sanctity of being a "vessel" for God's infallible word, etc. etc. ad nauseam.)

You are trying to perform a too-subtle operation of preserving & recovering some pristine ahistorical Divine Koran while at the same time historicizing the massive problems and evil it has inspired. In the context of a sedate conference room at a Bernard Lewis seminar, this might be an intellectually interesting pursuit. In our present concrete context of evil, genocidal, apocalyptic, war-mongering Islamonazis, it is simply unacceptable sophistry: So...

GET OFFA DA STAGE!!!

More rudeness. Mentaxy, you and the Islamists want me off the stage. So you can rest peacefully knowing that you share similar goals to them. You are serving them without even being cognizant of it.

You draw a parallell between myself and Stephen Schwartz, perhaps you should read my response to him in a recent FPM article.

In his recent essay “What Defines Moderate Islam?” Stephen Schwartz highlights an essential element of the "reformist" discourse: how do we define a "moderate Muslim" of "moderate Islam"? Mr .Schwartz fails to arrive at a workable definition for either. Nonetheless, he believes that moderate Muslims and moderate Islam has existed throughout Muslim history, and that the only barrier to true moderation is the cancer of Wahabbism.

Mr Schwartz employs the example of Bosnian Islam to partially illustrate his thesis. I am unable to comment on the unique case of Bosnian Muslims. While, I have, over the last month or so availed myself to research the Bosnian "phenomenon", I am not learned to the point where I can question Mr. Schwartz's characterization of that community. Nonetheless, I respectfully take issue with several of Mr. Schwartz's general statements on "moderate Islam" and the role that the classical sources of Islam have played and will play in contemporary Muslim ideology.

At the outset, we have a divergence of opinion on the general source of the malaise that is
facing Islam. Mr. Schwartz seems to believe that the source is exclusively Wahabbism. I put it to Mr. Schwartz, that while Wahhabism is a significant driving force behind the current malaise Islam is facing, it is not the foundation of that malaise. The real foundation is nearly fourteen hundred years of Muslim tradition, and the misguided interpretation of the Qu'ran and more importantly and the mis-application the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad.

I wholeheartedly reject the notion, that prior to Arabia's allegiance to Ibn al Wahab, that a truly moderate version of Islam existed. One need only to carefully evaluate the four schools of Sunni jurisprudential (and Sh'ia Jafari) thought (including the Maliki school), which evolved throughout Islam's history, to determine that "moderation" still meant the killing of apostates, stoning of adulterers and the subjugations of women, etc.

Mr. Schwartz made the following observation in his analysis: "Moderate Islam has always existed; but it is not and will not be defined by purging of texts or precedents from the Qu'ran or other elements of its theology, which are harsh to Western ears, and which some Westerners wish to blame for terrorism." I strongly disagree. While, aspects of a moderate form of Islam have existed in pockets throughout Muslim history as may be the case of the current Bosnian Muslims, it has never been a pervasive force, and was always prone to ideological defeat because of the complications that Muslim tradition presents and the shear complexity of the Qu'ran itself. The so-called "Rightly-Guided Caliphates", and the political power mongering in between, should be seen as the primary catalyst for this politicization and corruption of Islam. It is during the latter of these caliphates that men like Al-Bukhari and Abu Hurairah (relaters of the ahadith), became political "prostitutes" to the Caliphates.

Despite the fact that these so called traditions of the Prophet Muhammad were codified, approximately 150 years after his death, Muslims often make no distinction between the actual revelation of the Qu'ran and the Sunnah. In fact, Mr. Schwartz does not take pains to truly distinguish the nature of Muslim tradition from the revelation of the Qu'ran, and seems to paint them with the same brush in terms of their priority in Islam (although he of course recognizes the difference).

In Islam, the revelation forming the Qu'ran is the undisputed word of God, full stop. Ahadith, by their very nature, cannot be viewed as such. In several situations ahadith directly contradict the Qu'ran. The Qu'ran does not prescribe a worldly punishment, while specific ahadith prescribe the penalty of death. Each school of Islamic legal thought, including the Maliki school which Mr Schwartz makes reference to, sanction the death penalty for riddah (apostasy).

My argument is, following the "tradition" of Abdullah Na'im, Fazlur Rahman and Ahmed Mansour, that the perceived duality between the Qu'ran and Sunnah has led Islam to where it is today, in a state of disarray. What of one of the most controversial traditions of the Prophet Muhammad in which the Prophet consummates his marriage to the nine year old daughter of Ali? This is a tradition that most Muslims rarely discuss in open. I discussed this particular hadith with a Muslim recently who drew the conclusion that whatever the Prophet did was halal, hence legal; thus having sexual relations with a nine year old girl was perfectly acceptable because it was the Prophet who perpetrated it. To me, this widely accepted hadith, provides the greatest case for abandoning or at the very least de-emphasizing the entire Muslim tradition (whether the tradition is true or not).

Mere de-emphasisation or abandonment of the Muslim tradition does not end the inquiry. While I recognise (as a Muslim) that the revelation from God to Muhammad is "perfect", the Qu'ran in itself is an extraordinarily complex document, often not fully understood by the most pre-eminent scholars. As such, it is essential, in the twenty-first century that efforts be made to develop a new modern and moderate exegesis (tafsir) (in contrast for example to that of Sayd Qutb's "In the Shade of the Qu'ran").

I am not advocating the abandonment of the Qu’ran or its de-emphasization in any respect, although it must be recognized that while the revelation of God to Muhammad may be "perfect", the fact that the written Qu'ran has been tampered with and reordered by men, with certain verses omitted should indicate that our holy scripture as codified by man, may not be as perfect as we might think. This is why the development of a new, radically new modern and moderate exegesis is essential.

Placing the complex Qu'ran in the hands of our youth, without comprehensive and exhaustive explanation of its contents and how it applies today, into the hands of Muslim youth is grossly irresponsible. Mr. Schwartz points out that once Wahhabism is vanquished and Islamic pluralism is "restored", then we as Muslims can re-analyse the Qu'ran and Sunnah afresh. This is absurd. Muslims must collectively rethink and re-evaluate these sources in the here and now. Through this self-evaluation, we can work towards providing a practical and viable alternative to the monster of Wahhabism. Simply fighting Wahabbism without providing an alternative vision will only perpetuate the existence of the ideology. Furthermore, a mere return, to pre-Wahabbi Islamic thought, even if that construct could be construed as moderate, without addressing the rationale behind the ideological shift from it to Wahabbism does nothing to adequately protect Islam from a future Wahabbi hijacking. What is required, is not a return to the so-called "glory days" of Islam, where a limited form of pluralism and discourse existed, but the removal of the man made doctrines that allowed Islam to succumb to Wahabbism. Otherwise the cycle will be repeated.

Such re-evaluation is not merely an academic or theoretical exercise. Western Muslims are slowly awakening to the fact that classical sources of Islam need to be-revaluated not only in their interpretation but application. Western Muslims in theory, provide the greatest hope for contemporary Islam (although reality seems to indicate a different trend). Discourse and critical self-examination are more likely to occur among Western Muslims because of the relative scope of freedom offered.

The influence of Wahhabism on Western Muslims, is largely a result of Western governments failing to curtail Saudi and Pakistani infiltrators and their propaganda from controlling Western Islamic institutions. Western governments have vested interest (which has been highlighted again by the killing of Theo Van Gogh) in ensuring that Western Muslims are free from the influence of Wahhabism.

I do not share the same enthusiasm that true Islamic moderation and modernization can emanate from the Arabian peninsula, even upon the collapse of Wahhabism, when Arabia is and always has been so culturally and ideologically divergent to Western idealism. Merely ignoring the disastrous impact that a greater part of the Muslim tradition has had on Islam, and hoping that Muslims can eventually discern what is moderate and modern from that tradition is naively optimistic in my view.

While I have nothing but respect and admiration for Mr. Schwartz's knowledge and contribution to Islam, I strongly disagree with his conclusions. Nonetheless, I hope that this response fosters a healthy and constructive dialogue between two committed Muslims.

Mentaxy, what you and others really want for me is to abandon Islamic reform completely. Islamic reform, even if it could occur, would not serve your purposes. It is much easier to condone statements that all Muslims should be "bombed" if they refuse to flush down their Qur'an in the toilet, as one acute poster noted above. Where is your condemnation of this?

Tommy here just wants us be silent or polite like good submissive dhimmis should. You see he wants us dhimmis to not be angry or complain or retaliate to all the evil that is going on due to islam. You see Tommy there is a difference between people here and the Muzis (Muslim Nazis). They hate us and are angry for no reason. People here are just taking issue with that.

UNinformed Christian

Please make citations in order substantiate on how I want you to be silent. I don't want you to be silent. What I am calling for is less vulgarity, and pure offensiveness and for more analysis. Clearly, you are not up for it. Instead of making toilet humour use intelligence. You may reach the same conclusion but it will be done in a more convincing way.

I will ask you and Shiva a question, do you support the killing or forced conversion of all Muslims? If so thsi makes you no better than a terrorist...

Thomas

Thomas,

You're not even trying. After I posted a lengthy analysis of your frontpage essay, you post a rebuttal to my post in which you begin by accusing me of not having read your frontpage essay and then you proceed to quote your whole frontpage essay again.

In your rebuttal post, you also failed to address most of my points. The only things worth my time responding to from your post:

"Mentaxy, what you and others really want for me is to abandon Islamic reform completely."

If any "reform" is going to preserve the "perfection" and absolute divinity of the Koran, yes: it should be abandoned. Muslim reformers need to go through the same process which the majority of Western Christians and Jews have had to with regard to their holy texts and traditions: a profound, radical, searing, painful examination of a thousand questions, over at least 300 years, about what divine revelation means if all expressions of it are human and imperfect in history. And even the minority of Christians and Jews who tenaciously hang on to irrational theories of Biblical inerrancy don't go around rioting and killing in the name of such inerrancy, as Muslims do all over the Goddamn motherfucking globe.

(And why you keep misspelling my name is irksome.)

"...that all Muslims should be "bombed" if they refuse to flush down their Qur'an in the toilet, as one acute poster noted above. Where is your condemnation of this?"

As you well know, that "acute poster" (whatever that means) was me. I do not condemn my statement: I defend it on the grounds that Muslims need to learn the hard way that their Koran is not an absolute Divine force-field whose desecration justifies and mandates rioting and murdering and irrational hatred. Muslims have to learn that desecration is a private, personal matter, not a public, political matter (except insofar as they may wish to organize civil, mature public forums in the media, or letter-writing to political representatives, as Jews and Christians do). But if they continue to be so Goddamned bull-headed and insane that they cannot grow up about this, we should kill those who kill and/or threaten to kill for such insane rationales. Nota bene: I didn't say we should bomb "all" Muslims.

I will ask you and Shiva a question, do you support the killing or forced conversion of all Muslims? If so this makes you no better than a terrorist...
No I do not call for the killing of all muslims
What I do call for is islam is exposed for what it is,and dealt with the same way as Nazi Germany,and Japan where dealt with.And for muslims to be treated the same as nazis are treated.
As for the forced conversion of all Muslims
Bukhari:V4B52N260 “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.’” This is why we must free Muslims from Islam. Without our help, death is their only way out..So ”I do not think that the so called moderate muslins will need to be converted.They will leave islam quite happily once the Islamic oppressors and their thugs are removed .A very large amount of muslims are forced to be muslim,by the leaders/clerics who do it for themselves, for the perks of power. They will tell any lie or embrace any falsehood and commit any crime if it serves their interests
History tell us that bad overwhelms good until good cares. Islam will continue to poison its faithful and deceive its foes until the planet is embroiled in World War. That is what it was born to do.
Most rational men and women will conclude that a god who is principally vengeful, forgetful, contradictory, and irrational might not be a god after all. But why should we care? It’s a free world and Muslims are entitled to their beliefs.But the fact is, Muslims are killing us, and they will continue to kill us until we have the good sense to understand the doctrine that drives them to such behavior. Besides, the Muslim world isn’t free. It has never been free.
Okay, so Muslims aren’t free. So what? Why are their problems our problems? Because we are free. We have the opportunity and responsibility to diagnose this disease before it consumes our life, liberty, and prosperity as it has theirs.
Islam has predicted its own demise. It will be extinguished as it was born. Muhammad was unable to give his followers a reason to live, so he gave Muslims a reason to die. And tragically, they shall. Allah’s prophet sacrificed three billion souls upon the altar of his selfish ambitions.

Bukhari:V7B67N427 “The Prophet said, ‘If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.’” Translated into common English, he just said, “I am a lying scumbag; you should not trust me.

Shiva:
How can you,a person,who can read and write,be a mosleym,knowing that MOHAMMED CREATED AS A CULTIST, A FLOCK OF SHEEP TO SHEAR,AND TO RAPE,PLUNDER AND KILL TO SATISFY HIS PERVERTED BLOODLUST?
What has the koran/islam got to offer that the bible or another faith fails to offer?
What makes this book more Superior?

I will not justify my faith to you. I have the freedom to believe what I chose.

Thomas
Yes you do have the freedom to believe what you chose
But remember the fate of hundreds of thousands of muslims who wanted to use their right of freedom.
You are only free within the confines of Islam.

If you had an ounce or even a shred of intelligence you would see that I do not view Islam as superior.

NowThomas IF you had an ounce or even a shred of intelligence you will see
that I did not ask anything about why you thought islam is superior.

Is this how you are reforming Islam By lecturing muslims the fine art of Taquiyah
http://www.iman.co.nz/index.htm?innerpage_n.htm?newsletter/16may03.htm

KC /~
~/ = (white flag)

########## (tax in pounds--I can't do that elegant L with the squiggles through it on this machine).

Watch out, Tameem. These Brits is TOUGH!

Thomas, I still think you're a Quaker at heart.