Another story suggesting that poverty breeds terror, an idea that has been refuted many times. From the Shubra el-Kheima area of Cairo, via AP, with thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist:
"There are also many Islamists here," said Hassan el-Bey, a handsome 27-year-old local strongman with a scar down his face who says he makes a living shaking down drug dealers.And it's the Islamists, not the criminals, who attract the police attention, he said....
Along the small alleyways, pop music blares from shops selling clothes or juice, competing with the sound of Quran readings and preaching from stalls selling religious books.
Head scarves are a must, even for women in jeans. The more religious wear the "niqab," a veil covering the entire face except for the eyes.
Sitting on a low stool in front of her tiny candy shop, one 35-year old woman wearing glasses over her niqab agreed to talk to a reporter, but refused to give her name.
She said the Cairo attacks were not the works of Islamists. "Anything that goes wrong is usually blamed on the Sunnis," she said, using the vernacular here for conservative Muslims.
"Many people would wear the niqab and do things and hide behind it. I am doing it for God and I don't care what people say," she said.
One street away lived 18-year-old Hassan Bashandi, who blew himself up in the middle of a Cairo bazaar on April 7, killing three tourists. An undercover security man now occupies his house and neighbors refuse to talk.
Refaat Abdel Hadi, a plumber in his 50s, said Islamists don't mingle with the rest of Shubra el-Kheima's population. "A passing by Sunni will not salute me, only another Sunni like himself."
Every corner in this maze of low brick buildings appears to be occupied by a small mosque. Drug dealers or thugs are also invariably present, staking out their turf.
El-Bey has made himself a local celebrity, forcing out dealers he doesn't like or who won't pay up, while insisting he does not sell drugs himself. Two young men standing on the street corner greet him warmly.
Yet even this slum dweller who has mastered the rough rules of the street rejects violence in the name of Islam. "To think of destructive things like that (bombing) is no joke," he said. "This is death."
The idea that a "slum dweller who has mastered the rough rules of the street" is more likely than someone else to accept violence in the name of Islam is a clear manifestation of a near-total incomprehension about what the jihad terrorists are doing and why.
The government blames events in Iraq for Egypt's latest round of attacks, suggesting the suspects were inspired by Iraqi insurgents.Wanted posters of Mohammed Yousri Yassin, the brother of a man who threw himself off a bridge holding a bomb that exploded in downtown Cairo on April 30, are plastered along subway stations on the way to Shubra el-Kheima.
Two women — reportedly the sister and fiancee of slain bomber Ehab Yousri Yassin — opened fire on a tourist bus shortly after his death before fatally shooting themselves, police said. No one on the bus was wounded but seven people were hurt in the bridge attack.
But in defense of their hometown, most Shubra el-Kheima residents refuse to call the attackers "terrorists."
Which is one indication why we need something much more specific than a march against "terror."
"This is not terrorism or the like. People have just had it," said Moustafa Abou Dahab, a 40-year old resident who bounces between jobs and currently records music tapes. "I would blow myself up if I can't feed my kids."
Even if we were to suspend our belief in the many studies that have irrefutably broken the connection between poverty and jihad, the question remains, why are the 22 Arab League nations so impoverished? If the Islamic ideology is so perfect, how is it that they have had more than 14 centuries to order their society in such a way as to effect the accumulation of the greatest wealth on the planet, and yet the aggregate GDP of the entire League today is less than that of Spain alone [UN Arab Development Report 2003]?
The answer is simple: the Islamic ideology has failed to scale up successfully to any higher social construct than the tribal warfare society from which it emerged. It was at its conception and remains today, a mere military code of conquest that is as obsolete as the bushido or medieval European feudalism. Islam was left behind with all the other ideological detritus extant in the world when the great thinkers of the Enlightenment reshaped the societies of Man and redefined his place in the Universe.
"I would blow myself up if I can't feed my kids." --from the article above
The Egyptian government is corrupt. Egyptian leaders batten on the $2 billion in American aid, not to mention whatever they manage to wheedle out of the Europeans. But the poor, who exist everywhere, or others who are not poor but outraged at the corruption, do not merely say that Mubarak and company are "corrupt." That is what non-Muslims would say. No -- they say that Mubarak and his Family-and-Friends fellow thieves are "infidels" or in the pockets of "infidels" or in league with the "infidels" or un-Islamic. In other words, all discontent, all political life, can be reduced to the categories that Islam so conveniently provides, and the two biggest categories of all are those of the Believer and the Infidel.
It is no different in Saudi Arabia. Are the thousands of "princes" of the Al-Saud family helping themselves to the country's oil wealth? Of course they are. Is it sickening? Of course it is. But the problem is seen, by those sickened by that appropriation, and the decadent pursuits (which are not "decadent" only in Islamic terms) of those princes is seen as demonstrating the "un-Islamic" nature of the Al-Saud.
Muslims view the world through the prism of Islam. It provides a Total Expanation of the Universe, which covers every possible detail of life. It would be impossible to find a category of injustice that cannot be defined in terms of Islam. Corruption is unjust, and therefore, for those who wish to fight it, it must necessarily be un-Islamic. On the other hand, spreading Islam, fighting the Infidels if they resist, and treating them terribly according to the principles of the sharia when and where they submit or are conquered, is also Islamic.
So what should we do? Those now making policy seem to want to believe any number of things, none of them true. Some want to believe that Islam is fundamentally decent, save for the fundamentalists, whose definition keeps changing and expanding -- from a "tiny handful of extremists" to "the Wahhabis" to the "Wahhabis" and the "Salafists" to 10-15% of all Muslims, to...well, the latest effort is to convince us that there is "war going on within Islam itself" (nonsense -- there are some who are secret or open secularists, but they are hardly making war on the others, just trying to survive as best they can, and stop the further encroachments of Islam where it has temporarily been constrained, as in Turkey under Kemalist rulers, or even in Iraq under the Ba'athists). There is no "war for the soul of Islam." There is the 1350-year war of Islam against, not the West -- but all the rest. It can die down, when the wherewithal for condcuting the war diminishes. It can die down, when there are no triumphs to swell hearts and encourage the troops. It can die down, as money and access to arms, and freedom to move to the Infidel lands to conduct, behind enemy lines, the kind of non-military warfare that undermines Infidel morale, and even spreads Islam among the most vulnerable identifiable types within Infidel society: the economically marginal; the psychically marginal; the innocent young and desperate prisoners, with many in both groups searching for An Answer; the spoiled and confused flotsam and jetsam of Western social collapse, such as John Walker Lindh.
No "war within Islam" but the age-old, and endless war of Islam, using whatever instruments it possesses (and military combat is only one of those instruments).
Unless this is understood, Infidels will no doubt keep transferring the already hideously large sums being given to OPEC (with its oligopolistic pricing, and seeming paralysis by the American government to tax gasoline and to support a crash program to develop all other sources, and supplies, of energy), continue to supply aid to Egypt, Pakistan, the "Palestinians" and all other Musim groups or countries that do not have oil revenues (and of course whom the rich oil countries somehow are not expected to support -- that is apparently the job of the so-called "rich" Western world, which means Western taxpayers who, compared to the rich of the Arabian peninsula, are on the brink of starvation).
Those who view the universe through the prism of Islam will always find a way to blame Infidels, or to regard those they resent in their own societies as Infidels. Let us not do anything to encourage that feeling. The Egyptian government is corrupt in every way. Continuing to give it aid is nonsensical -- in every way.
The best strategy remains the same:
1) Limit the ability of Muslim states or groups to acquire major weaponry.
2) Work feverishly to diminish the OPEC revenues of the Muslim countries.
3) Work in Europe and in North America to educate people about the tenets of Islam, the attitudes and atmospherics of Islam, and the history of both Jihad-conquest, and of the imposition of dhimmi status on subjugated non-Muslims, over 1350 years.
4) Support those in the Western world who are keenly aware of what is going on, and able to articulate the problem.
5) Do nothing that would inadvertently dampen the natural fissures within the Islamic world, between Arabs and non-Arabs, between Sunni and Shia. The obvious example is Iraq, where a thousand legitimate excuses for leaving now present themselves -- and should be used to bid adieu, always reserving the right, of course, to supply one side (the Kurds, for example) or another, in order to promote our own interests -- and not those of Islam.
6) By denying further aid, by embarking on a course of action that will ensure not only that the price of oil never goes down (which would preserve OPEC's market share, and delay for too long the move away from fossil fuels), but that self-taxation will take away much of the power of OPEC to collect all the profit for itself (the more we tax the oil, the more the Saudis, the only swing producers, have to worry about raising the price further themselves -- and this has been true and might have been acted on, had we understood Saudi Arabia, back in 1973), and by doing nothing that will hearten or encourage the forces of Jihad anywhere, and finally, by ending Muslim migration to dar al-Harb, and preventing the use of foreign (chiefly but not exclusively Saudi) money to promote Islam by funding mosques and madrasas (but no alternative mosques, funded by Infidel governments, should be supported -- let the locals pay for their own housese of worship, or not have them at all), we can save ourselves.
Again, here is a sentence that needs to be memorized. Its truth cannot be denied. And that sentence is as follows:
"The presence of large numbers of Muslims within the lands of the Infidels has created a situation for the indigenous Infidels that is far more unpleasant, expensive, and physically dangerous than it would be without the presence of large numbers of Muslims."
There are not many people in France, Italy, Spain, England, Germany, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark and other places who could deny the truth of that statement. Even when they do not know quite what to do, even if they are among those who "hope" that they can "integrate" many of the Muslims, they all know that a terrible mistake was made in allowing them to migrate in into their countries in the first place.
Save for the hirelings -- those on the take from Arabs, the band of ex-diplomats, ex-intelligence agents, estate agents selling mansions and messuage to assorted rich Gulf Arabs, journalists, academic recipients of Saudi, U.A.E., and Kuwaiti largesse -- everyone else (save for the wandering tribe of antisemites, who find themselves quite naturally on the side of Islam, even if they don't know a thing about it or give a damn) knows that that sentence is true.
"But the poor, who exist everywhere, or others who are not poor but outraged at the corruption, do not merely say that Mubarak and company are "corrupt." That is what non-Muslims would say. No -- they say that Mubarak and his Family-and-Friends fellow thieves are "infidels" or in the pockets of "infidels" or in league with the "infidels" or un-Islamic. In other words, all discontent, all political life, can be reduced to the categories that Islam so conveniently provides, and the two biggest categories of all are those of the Believer and the Infidel."
But Islam does tell prescribe how to rule - its fairly sensible to class Mubarak as an infidel because his rule is not really conducted upon Islamic principles. How long can their be a state of emergency anyway?!
It is no different in Saudi Arabia. Are the thousands of "princes" of the Al-Saud family helping themselves to the country's oil wealth? Of course they are. Is it sickening? Of course it is. But the problem is seen, by those sickened by that appropriation, and the decadent pursuits (which are not "decadent" only in Islamic terms) of those princes is seen as demonstrating the "un-Islamic" nature of the Al-Saud.
The Saud family is criticised as un-Islamic because of their distinctly un-Islamic behaviour. Alcoholism springs to mind for one.
As for Cairo, its the usual story of over-excited clerics. The average citizen realises the importance of tourism for the country and will go out of their way to make you welcome. When walking through the city however, one does tend to hear some distinctly extremist sermons broadcast from a fair amount of Mosques.
I don't think the poverty link is as simple as the article makes out either. Being poor doesn't make you extreme, but what it does do is make you more willing to listen to extreme alternatives. In the same way that many in Germany embraced the National Socialist message following the Great Depression, so do many poor Muslims follow the extremist who promises glory and eternal reward in heaven. Poverty breeds escapism and radical Islam is simply the fashionable ideology to use at the moment; fifty years ago it was Communism or Arab Nationalism.
Guys:
Lately there has been A LOT of troll feeding going on at JW. Most of us know that this is a total waste of time and effort but occasionally the provocation is so egregious it can't be avoided.
I'd like to point out that no muslim poster to this site (with the probable exception of Jsingleton and Thomas Haidon, who are anti-jihad) has ever been able to present a cogent, logical, substantive, well-reasoned argument that was on-topic and responded appropriately to a challenege. (As you all know, critical thinking skills are discouraged in islam and are indeed anathema to the true "believer".) The best they can do is resort to ad hominems, tu quoque and other meaningless tactics, always the same ones that they get from their same old tired websites, as well as post long cut-and-pastes that are also from those same and now-all-too-familiar (yawn) websites, which most of us regulars just skip right on over without reading since we've seen it all so many times before.
I'm not saying that a response or two isn't called for from time to time, but you troll-feeders (and you know who you are) are allowing the muslims to hijack entire threads and establish their OWN agendas, diverting us from Robert's and our own. Do you really want to give them that kind of influence or platform?
I suggest that if you can't keep yourself from endlessly engaging these trolls (which only encourages them, as they are always involved in either jihad or da'wa), you pony up at the donations link on the JW homepage to compensate Spencer for the bandwidth that they waste and abuse.
muslim trolls are drawn to this site like flies to a sh@t-pile, but that doesn't mean we have to buy into their efforts at manipulation and their stale, tired rhetoric. It's just getting so OLD.
BTW, the trolls hardly ever visit DW on a regular and consistent basis, so for those of you just as fed up with the infestation as I am, consider spending more time over there.
I plan to post this message more than once to get the message out. Sorry for the repetition, but it simply had to be said - AGAIN.
CGW
"I would blow myself up if I can't feed my kids."
How intelligent! [NOT]
He'd blow himself up - and leave them to fend for themselves.
Lemme tell ya - it takes a whole lot of love to do something like that
"many poor Muslims follow the extremist who promises glory and eternal reward in heaven."
--from a posting above
And so do many rich, and middle-class Muslims, and Muslims who have lived or now live in the West, and Muslims who have never left their Pakistani village or Moroccoan city. Bin Laden was one of the 55 or so heirs to the largest private fortune in Saudi Arabia. Ayman al-Zawahiri was a surgeon; his great-uncle was Azzam Pasha, the first Secretary-General of the Arab League. Mohammad Atta was the son of a lawyer and an upper middle-class Egyptian able to go to the West for urban studies. Various American Muslims, such as the Intel computer engineer "Mike" Hawash (earning $360,000 a year, with an American wife and three children, and seemingly well-integrated), have repeatedly demonstrated loyalty to the umma al-islamiyya, not to the United States or to fellow Americans. All the many researchers who have meticulously gone through the lists of terrorists in order to study their backgrounds have come to the conclusion that on the whole they are better educated and much better off than the average Muslim. Indeed, the poor Muslim villager, living far from audiocassettes and videocassettes, and Al-Jazeera, is far less of a threat than those much better off Muslims, including the fantastically idle rich up and down the Gulf, who can fill in their hours with gambling and call girls in the West, but also -- without the slightest mental contradiction -- by thinking about Jihad, and putting their money to work promoting Jihad (which, as everyone knows, is hardly limited to military campaigns).
Of course it is convenient for some to pretend that the problem is poverty. But poor black (non-Muslim) Africans, poor South American Indians, the poor in China and the poor Hindus in India, do not plot and plan mass murder of others. The only theoretical model that fits the data, and has predictive value, is that the belief-system of Islam fills minds with the same ideas, or quasi-ideas, that it has for nearly 1350 years. Muslims possess the truth. Muslims have a right to spread that truth. Non-Muslims have no right to oppose the spread of that truth. If they do, they must be fought. They can be killed. Their women and property can be taken. Their lands can be taken. It is just, it is right, it is proper, it is according to the will of God that Islam must dominate and is not to be dominated. It is right, it is just, it is proper that non-Muslims should be deliberately humiliated even where permitted to live, for there must be many obvious and visible signs of their status as non-Muslims -- including but hardly limited to the excruciating circumstances in which the jizyah was to be paid. The full list of disabilities under which dhimmis, at least, were permitted to escape with their lives, is too long to go into here.
See, if you will, the information supplied at www.dhimmitude.org, or "Le statut legal des non-musulmans etc." by the late Antoine Fattal, until recent years a Lebanese Maronite diplomat and law professor, who knew whereof he wrote.
Hulegu Khan
why are the 22 Arab League nations so impoverished? If the Islamic ideology is so perfect, how is it that they have had more than 14 centuries to order their society in such a way as to effect the accumulation of the greatest wealth on the planet, and yet the aggregate GDP of the entire League today is less than that of Spain alone [UN Arab Development Report 2003]?
not to mention being FAR older than the United States {the 'Great Satan robbed them - didn't you know?]
Facts are facts! Violence begets poverty!
allah preaches violence.
Peace brings blesings. Tranquility - stability - wisdom - happiness.
And it is Truth that none can deny without being a liar: The founding fathers of America wrote laws based upon the New Testament.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes {Not filthy money] into the storehouse, that there may be meat {A higher understanding] in mine house,
''''and prove me now herewith'''' saith the LORD of hosts,
if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. {This is the Lord Who keeps His promises
"I would blow myself up if I can't feed my kids."
I have one burning question? Why DON'T poor people in Non-Muslim 3rd world countries become extremist also. WHY only in ISLAMIC countries?
Vishal
further encroachments of Islam where it has temporarily been constrained, as in Turkey under Kemalist rulers,
Hugh - some of the latest reports claim that Turkey is dealing more and more with extremists these days - even within their own government.
but what it does do is make you more willing to listen to extreme alternatives
shamrock_uk I don't agree.
The poor who would rather die - than kill - proves that belief a false one.
It is what is planted in the heart that will make the difference.
Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Blow the Aswan Dam and wash that city of filth, vice and fanaticism into the Mediterranean
"I have one burning question? Why DON'T poor people in Non-Muslim 3rd world countries become extremist also. WHY only in ISLAMIC countries?"
Vishal, is that a rheoterical question? Islam is a religion based on violent extremism and fanaticism. All the rest is commentary!
Don't know where I read this concise explanation
of Islam compared to other religions:
Non Muslim religious fanatics want to die for what they believe in.
Muslim religious fanatics want YOU to die for what they believe in.
muslim Poverty is islam's problem, not America's. If securing America's freedom from terrorism requires incinerating a very large number of muslims, I can live with it. Let the barbeque begin.
No muslims; No mosques.
"I have one burning question? Why DON'T poor people in Non-Muslim 3rd world countries become extremist also. WHY only in ISLAMIC countries?"
They do. It's far from being an excelusively Islamic phenomenon.
There are plenty of examples of Christian extremists in Africa, this being a random example from last year. Similarly there are Sikh extremists (look at the killing of Indira Ghandi for example), Hindu extremists (eg from a random search) and I'm sure you can find extremists for every religion out their somewhere.
"I have one burning question? Why DON'T poor people in Non-Muslim 3rd world countries become extremist also. WHY only in ISLAMIC countries?
Vishal"
I also ask the same question.
"There are plenty of examples of Christian extremists in Africa, this being a random example from last year. Similarly there are Sikh extremists (look at the killing of Indira Ghandi for example), Hindu extremists (eg from a random search) and I'm sure you can find extremists for every religion out their somewhere.
Posted by: shamrock_uk"
Yes there are, but few can quote their respective teachings before commiting the act. Muslims however delight in it.
And don't forget shamrock, its not only limited to religion, the religion of the atheist, evolution has also killed many (Stalin, Hitler, Mao etc - nothing wrong with killing fellow animals under this believe system)
Well, I'd say "secularism" more than evolution, 3rdtime; still, victims of secular philosophies do outnumber those of religion - save one religion, of course.
Geoff
Hugh, that's an interesting point: there are several ayah/hadith that say that the greatest kind of muslim is one who goes on jihad. "For maybe it is that you do not like to do a thing, but that Allah wants you to do it and Allah knows best" or somesuch.
So what we would call immorality - consorting with prostitutes, gambling (which is, at the least, widely recognized as a vice to be avoided; guilt inevitably accompanies mention of its partaking or is felt in the back of the mind) - is blissfully ignored, as if one had received a papal absolution in the long-ago medieval period as long as one is on jihad.
Thanks for that interesting perspective.
Geoff
Shamrock seems to be another troll: Deflect, tooquque, accuse others...
"Do not feed the trolls"- lets try & stick to it.
Havoc: I thought I was a moderate, then you came along....
shamrock
I'm not going to lambaste you for your post. But in these days, it's only the Muslims who derive their justification for violence from their scriptures! Also, they receive the enthusiastic and/or tacit support from a good % of their co-religionists. On the other hand, the Kahanists and the Christian Identity sects get nothing but scorn from their co-religionists.
Shamrock seems to be another troll: Deflect, tooquque, accuse others...
I wouldn't exactly say it was trollish behaviour Terminator, I was simply saying that this statement:
Why DON'T poor people in Non-Muslim 3rd world countries become extremist also. WHY only in ISLAMIC countries?
is in fact incorrect and providing some examples to back up why I thought so. The response by 3rdtimelucky was a very valid one though.
But worry not, whilst I have my concerns about militant Islam, if clarification of facts is considered trolling then I shall watch from afar as there is perhaps not much I can contribute here.
Keep up the good work with the site.
"...if clarification of facts..."
I wonder if the link you provided is really a "clarification."
The greatest number of non-muslim responses to muslims are indeed a reaction to muslim aggression.
I may be wrong as far as the Tarok tribal incident is concerned, but I would wager that I am not.
O/T but,I heard that Friday's Box Office take for Kingdom of Heaven was a paltry $7.3 million.
If any of you would like to go to IMDB.com's Kingdom of Heaven message boards and post some REAL HISTORICAL information about the Crusades and Kingdom of Heaven in particular, that would give you the opportunity to talk to and to inform a whole new audience.
Freedom1
I heard they yanked the message board at IMDb for "Kingdom of Heaven"
Well said Hugh.
Shamrock:
If you are not a troll, please feel free to educate yourself.
1400 years of Jihad conquest is enough evidence that the Qu'ran is the foundation for Mohammedan terror which is cultivated in the mosque and brings death and destruction wherever Muslims have conquered, or have been allowed to settle.
JW is not about Northern Ireland, we have no beef with Sikhs, (they suffered plenty with Moslems) and Hinduhs must have suffered most of all under Mohammedan terror. (some 70 or 80 million killed under the moghul rule)
The whole world is held to ransom by this blood cult and people look the other way. We are pointing the finger at it, actually: we expose them "wherever we find them..."
http://www.terrorists-suck.org/fight/winds_of_jihad.html
I'll say this only - it is true that there have been contemporary wars on the basis of faith that have involved Christians, to which effect Northern Ireland is an example. But at the same time, none of such conflicts matches anything in islamic ones for savagery, hate, and body count.
This is something that the rest of the world needs to see fixed in islam, if it can be.
Geoff
Imran Khan says: condemn US for desecrating Koran
http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=104419
Khan happens to be the Pakistan terrorist entity's supreme sport hero. The former cricket star once married a Jewish woman, and forced her to convert to the murder cult. She dumped the creep.
smokem,
Will the government of the USA apologize?
Hugh,
"Work in Europe and in North America to educate people about the tenets of Islam, the attitudes and atmospherics of Islam, and the history of both Jihad-conquest, and of the imposition of dhimmi status on subjugated non-Muslims, over 1350 years."
I need someone to teach me about this. In particularly you Hugh. Now, because I dont value the actions of Muslims over 1350 years, because as a Muslim I am not beholden to them but I would like a crash course in Jihad, and Dhimmi.
Thanks you,
Shamrock, something you ought to know.
Drinking alcohol doesnt make you a kafir. Believing that alcohol is permissible does. Some of the companions drank and Prophet Muhammed persisted in applying the punishment. When asked why they continued drinking they replied that they were weak and sinful.
Vishal,
There is alot of violence in the 3rd world. Look at Africa, remember what happened in Sierre Leon, long sleeve or short? By the way, I love your name.
Beth,
Poverty isnt limited to Islamic countries. I am starting this book by Hernando Desoto, The Mystery of Capital. His thesis is that in 3rd world countries, most people work outside of the market system in like black market, and while there is a entreprenurial spirit among most people, there is too much dead capital. People dont own thier homes, which is a source of capital. I have only gotten through the first few pages but I seems like it will be a telling book.
I would like to say I'm rather ashamed at most of you. I have known Shamrock_uk from another forum for several months, and have shown him this site in an effort to enlighten him to the tactics of deception used and warfare used by adherents of islamists, and have had a fair amount of discussion with him. He is neither muslim, nor troll, merely a skeptic.
Many of the replies here that slammed him for not blindly accepting the information being passed around would turn away other skeptics seeking enlightenment and an honest answer to honest questions and concerns.
mohammed Cursing Christian
Morguerat
btw I've been a frequent reader (not every day but at least 3 times a week) for well over a year despite only posting a handful of times.
mohammed Cursing Christian
"Many of the replies here..."
Sort and respond to the posts which you feel applicable.
Personally, I haven't a problem with "offensive" posts.
They, along with cogency, are what make freedom so delightful.
Post on, or don't bother. It is your choice whether you be offended or not.
This is REALLY off topic, and I'm sorry. But I saw the "Ask the Imam" stuff on Bill's site, and the one at Beatutiful Atrocities, and they gave me such a chuckle that I really had to post a round of "Ask the Other Imam" responses to real Ask-The-Imam questions. The religious leader offering advice in this case is Imam Mustafa P. Bin-Ite'ly and his Advisory Committee.
Sorry again, Robert; and it was nice talking with you on Friday! Rad, dude!
Geoff
(Warning: naughty bits below. Sense of humour recommended.)
Q: i use to see porn sites but now i have left it, but if sometimes that feeling arouses, i can't stop it. is their any sunnah way in islam of having sex?
A: The feeling towards evil is natural. Every human being has a Shaytaan with him/her that whispers bad and evil to the person. For some people, this will be pornography; for others, it will alcohol; and for other, it will be a tall man in a dark cloak with a lightsaber. In any event, none of these things justifies a sixth movie, which is not deen. Spielberg knows best.
Q: Please advise if a husband and wife can have sex at the same time when an infant (less than 2 year old) is sleeping on the same bed? What is the age limit a child can sleep with his/her parents?
A: Suppose the child has to awake and witness the intimacy. It could have a negative effect on his upbringing and should therefore be abstained from.
A child may sleep with his parents till the age of ten. But one may marry a child of nine or older.
Q: My husband is addicted to porn. I have advised him many times but still continues. My constant nagging and spying on him is very unpleasant in our relationship. Should I stop advising him and only pray to Allah to guide him?
A: To condemn an evil practise and stop it is compulsory. However, one must apply hikmat and wisdom in fulfilling the obligation of condemning or stopping an evil act. At times, if not verbal force, it may be hikmat to adopt physical force. Of course, since he is male he is probably bigger and stronger than you. We recommend distracting him by pointing out the window and asking "is that an apostate?" or by telling him how you find the sexiest part of the male body to be the back of a lowered head.
Q: How far it is correct to take and keep nude pictures of one's wife., if one is away from her for long .This can keep one away from seeing other porno stuff.
A: It is not permissible to take any (modest or nude) pictures of one’s wife.
Furthermore, when one is away from his wife and has a carnal passion, how will such a nude picture satisfy him? In fact, that may increase his passion. What then will such a person do?
...Seriously, we don't know. What will such a person do? Do they beat off on it or what? If so, it is best that Polaroids are used, since Mazi totally screws up LED screens; trust me on this one.
Q: I know it is haram to watch pornography, but even though I pray 5 times a day I just got addicted. You already said many suggestions about this topic. I am sorry to say that I do this. What would be the easy way get rid of this. I was planning to buy some software to bloc pornography from my computer, but I could not find one. I want to know one thing to stay clean=if mazi comes after watching porno is GHUSUL is a FARZ or washing legs will be fine.
Also, is it permissible to play Indian game of Caram Board
A:The secretion of Mazi invalidates the Wudhu.
It is permissible to play caram board on condition there is nothing un-Islamic done during playing. Also, you may not masturbate on the Caram Board.
Q: I am 25 years old and have a problem i wish to share. I have a bad habit of watching gay pornography sites occasionally and cannot control my desires. Please help. I already have sent you a similar email but not received any reply as yet.
A: Pornography is Haram (strictly prohibited). To be gay or associated to it is also Haraam. There is no need for us to discuss the evils of pornography and gay. You also state that it is a bad habit and you feel the guilt of being engaged in this evil act.
Allah may forgive you, if you send me the list of websites and your passwords.
Q: we see pornographic magazines in newsagent, half income is from mags is it per 2 sell these living in non muslim country and only selling it 2 them plz give advice
A: Reading pornographic magazines and illicit literature is completely forbidden and abhorred. It is Zina (fornication) of the eyes.
It will absolutely not permissible to sell these filthy magazines in your shop, whether to Muslims or non-Muslims. The money earned from these Haraam magazines will also be Haraam.
On another subject, are you offering deals on subscriptions? My "Hairy Bears" is running out.
Q: What are the effects of porn? I am deeply distressed when I look at my friends around me watching pornographic images. I am 16 years old & I am deeply distressed when I look at my friends around me watching pornographic images.
A: It is a great striving for a young teenager to be strong in the world surrounded by fitna. What we found helping our youth, Alhamdulillah, is to first encourage good strong youth like yourself to become confident in their deep love for Islaam.
Take a postive approach to your friends, win them over by encouraging their positive good qualities (according to Islaam.) Always show kindness to them, love , care, compassion, and especially smile. Exchange gifts as Sunnah-to increase love. Your sex only and mahram of opposite sex. But especially the former. Touch them a lot. If they must continue to look at porn, I have a list of gay sites and passwords that I would be happy to share. There are also halaal oils you can buy for backrubs. Alhumdulillah.
Q: Alhamdullilah, your earlier response was very encouraging but you did not actually answer my question,I've heard you can have memory lapses due to watching porn...is this true?
A: Brother, before I go on to discuss this matter further, let me remind you about how most of these porn pics are made. You are probably aware of it but I shall remind you. Most of the girls and women are forced to perform in these movies after being kidnapped from their homes or home countries and traded as "sex slaves" into some foreign country. At least, that's how we do it here.
And, if you're getting memory lapses, you're pulling on the damn thing too hard.
Q: If a man only urinates (does not pass stool), is using toilet paper sufficient, or must a full istinjah with water be performed? I have heard claims in both directions.
A: It is sufficient to use toilet paper, but more virtuous with water. But if you're on the toilet and stuff is going in both directions, get a bag. Eww.
Q: Have too many doubts while using western-style toilets. How does one avoid splashes?
A: Lower the seat, and sit on that instead.
Q: How much does clear/white vaginal discharge have to spread before breaking wudu? How much does clear/white vaginal discharge have to spread before it breaks wudu? What if you have this discharge many many times a day?
A: Any amount of discharge invalidates Wudhu. If the discharge is before or during Salat, the Salaat will have to be repeated and the affected area of clothes must be washed. Moreover, if the cheese hits her knees then she's got a disease.
Q: I ended things with my b/f but we both have an agreement of coming back at a certain time to get married? Is his salvia unpaak it is possible it got passed on from my face to my hands and on a lot of things, so I still clean everything or just things I know it’s on for sure? If while i was with my boyfriend he touched my butt is that like sex i was wearing jeans what if his hands accidently went to my private area again while wearing clothes is that like sex?
A: We are not sure if his saliva is unpaak; which areas do you have his saliva on? Be sure to tell us with full details. You should probably also clean the areas anyway - maybe with slow, gentle circular motions. Yes, just like that. Post your phone number so that we may...er...check to see that you are cleaning things properly, like a good girl. Yes, that's it.
Also, tell us more about when he touched your butt and about what it felt like when his hands, uh, "accidentally" went to your private area. Maybe you should clean those things too.
Wa'salaam,
Imam Mustafa P.
"I need someone to teach me about this. In particularly you Hugh. Now, because I dont value the actions of Muslims over 1350 years, because as a Muslim I am not beholden to them but I would like a crash course in Jihad, and Dhimmi.
Thanks you,
Posted by: brownwonder"
Oh brother!
Brownswonder:
You have no authority to render someone a kafir. Not all Muslims follow the mand made, word of mouth ahadith like you and millions do. I discern revelation from man made tradition. What the Prophet said or did has no relevance to me, because its veracity is in question. As a Muslim, what is relevant is the Qur'an which needs to be accompanied by a new tafsir which moves awat from a literalist interpretaion of the Qur'an. Following ahadith as rabidly as you and most Muslims do, deflects the self described montheistic nature of Islam.
"Do they not consider the Koran with care, If it had been from anyone other than Allah, it would contain many discrepancies (4:82)."
"And the messenger says,"O my Lord, my OWN people have forsaken the Koran." (25:30)
Brownswonder, what do these ayat mean to you? I am interested in your interpretation.
The man made creation of Nafsuh or abrogation is imilar. Arborgation is not mentioned once in the Qu'ran. Two ayat lend support to the argument that it is permissible to drink alcohol in Islam. These two are in deirect conflict with one ayat which could be construed to prohibit it.
Until Muslims like you wake up to the problems that Sunnah and tradition pose, and the problems that historical and contmporary Qur'anic hermeneutics pose, you will forever remain in the gutter, where Islam remains today. I do not believe that the vast majority of Muslims have the intellectual or spiritual fortitude to divorce themselves from this pattern of thinking.
What say you?
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Brownfinger, why would your position on alcohol mean anything to us?
The Christian god does not condemn people for alcohol.
Secularists do not follow any god and may drink if they wish.
Why would an islamic perspective on alcohol matter anything about whether one is a kufr or not, as if that word carried any meaning either?
Geoff
"As a Muslim, what is relevant is the Qur'an which needs to be accompanied by a new tafsir which moves awat from a literalist interpretaion of the Qur'an."
Impossible. I will not quote what you already know, but the Koran was Muhammad's "literal recitation" from Allah, via Gabriel.
There is no "moving away" from a literalist interpretation.
Also, your statement, "I discern revelation from man made tradition." smacks of arrogance and would fly in your face if you lived amongst true Muslims.
To "discern" revelation from tradition is totally contradictory because objectiveness does not penetrate your mindset.
What you "discern" is a personal opinion which reveals your faith.
My faith reveals to me that Muhammad's Koran is nothing but a subjective feeling on his part and the submission to his message on the part of his followers.
A personal "revelation?" Only to me it is.
Kia ora Skeet:
I do not think you are in any position to tell Muslims or non-Muslims what interpretational approaches can be taken or not. I find it very telling that you choose to attack my view on this. I am arguing that the Qur'an, should not and cannot be subject to a literal interpretation. Yourself, and other posters are probably perfectly happy that literalism exists in Islam. It gives you a purpose. If Muslims could move away from literalism, as Robert Spencer has said, the prospects of reform would be much greater. Clearly this would be undesireable in your eyes. Or would it? You tell me. Clearly the better solution for you and your would be the elimination of Islam (Which i can understand why you would feel that way, if you did).
The existence of man made dogma in Islam is a barrier to moving away from literalism. That is my point. My argument is that revelation and tradition are not equivocal. Most Muslims however, treat them as if they were. Muslims often use ahadith to tweak the interpretation of teh Qur'an they are seeking.
The Qur'an as a whole cannot be taken literally:
"He it is who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. (3:7)"
You do not have a monopoly on Islam or the interpretation of its texts, or the interpretation of the Qur'an. I would like to see you read the materials of Ahmed Mansour, Abdullahi Na'im, Wael Hallaq or Fazlur Rahman, who are Muslim and have clearly argued for a non-literal appraoch to interpretation.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Skeet:
I ommitted the last sentence of the ayat in my last post. It shoudl conclude with
And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: ‘We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord’, and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
I have to admit that I have just read an interesting commentary on this ayat as well that disusses the internal inconsistency of this verse, which may do some damage to my argument above. Here is the cite:
http://www.renaissance.com.pk/maycrit2y1.html
Yours sincerely
Thomas
"I find it very telling that you choose to attack my view on this."
A disagreement, not an attack.
"I am arguing that the Qur'an, should not and cannot be subject to a literal interpretation."
But it is. And that is the way Muhammad meant it to be.
It was done in order to void the natural human ability to think. It was done to control the minds of those in his midst.
"Yourself, and other posters are probably perfectly happy that literalism exists in Islam. It gives you a purpose."
The first time I noticed Islam or the "misrepresentation" of Islam was in the early '80s, after Sadat's assassination, during a telecast showing the assassins, in jail, and in particular one, AYMAN AL-ZAWAHIRI, speaking English, saying, "WE ARE MUSLIMS!", and other such nonsense.
I have paid attention since and have disregarded the "intent" of Islam and have prudently noticed its results.
It is literal, just as the Prophet commanded. I did not propose a purpose for myself.
"Clearly this would be undesireable in your eyes."
My desire has nothing to do with it. I personally believe it is impossible. Muhammad made it that way. Not me.
"The existence of man made dogma in Islam is a barrier to moving away from literalism. That is my point. My argument is that revelation and tradition are not equivocal."
My point is that what you perceive as "revelation" is equal to man-imposed tradition.
I do not differentiate between the two because the creation of both is totally subjective. In the former, maybe personal, in the latter, a system or political ideology. Much, much worse.
"I would like to see you read the materials of Ahmed Mansour, Abdullahi Na'im, Wael Hallaq or Fazlur Rahman, who are Muslim and have clearly argued for a non-literal appraoch to interpretation."
And what makes you think that I haven't? You seem to assume quite a bit.
"And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: ‘We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord’, and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding."
Subjective feelings again. The drip of arrogance spits at the ignorant. Only the esoteric can possibly grasp the meaning of the message.
Thomas:
You called me an 'idiot' the other day. Not that I care, but what does that make you: Sitting on the fence between a blood cult that would chop your head off or hang you for blasphemy by now, and trying to be a 'reformer' of something that can not be reformed, a 'saviour' of something that is not worth saving?
Good luck! I would like to give you my blessings, but I'm afraid that won't help much in your environment.
Skeet:
"We are Muslims, WE ARE MUSLIMS"- I remember well! Ayman Al Zwahiri shouting from the cage in the courtroom.
Like Bashir in Indonesia: The "REAL" muslims, the faithful, the Coffeefilters, the poison, the virus and the disease...
"Allahu Akbar"... kill for Allah, kill infidels kill Jews...
Ideology masquerades as religion. Nothing worth having. Nothing worth saving. If death and destruction they want, we should give it to them before they kill us...
I second what CGW and others have been saying about the trolls. The slanging matches (on both sides) here over the last few days, particularly since the billboard went up and is attracting new posters, are only bringing Robert's site into disrepute and serving to undo the work that he and Hugh and Rebecca do.
There is no way I can now show this site to others, friends etc. I know if my husband saw the comments over the last while he would immediately dismiss this as a hate site. Is this what we want? We are shooting ourselves in the foot. The trolls are doing this deliberately to discredit us and we are falling right into their trap.
Sorry if this sounds pompous, but having lurked and seen the exchanges here recently, this is how I feel.
Thomas - I admire your efforts - I really do. But even if one generation of Muslims did not take it literally, another generation may - then BAAM!!! - another 9/11??
It happens now. Nominal Muslim one day - terrorist the next.
It's like saying that Hitler's Mein Kampf wasn't meant to be taken literally either. Trouble is, a percentage people will always take the Koran literally.
And in this nuclear & WMD age - only one radical is a big worry to civilisation.
Jakester:
"I heard they yanked the message board at IMDb for 'Kingdom of Heaven'".
It's back up again. I encourage all of you to post a comment about the historical inaccuracies of 'Kingdom of Heaven'. Some of the misinformation presented about Islam from some of the sites posters is pretty bad-in some cases it's downright false. So, if you've got the time, go for it.
IMDB.com
message boards
P.S.-If you do post, keep it factual and low-key. I've seen a bunch of deleted posts on the KoH board.
Silvester:
"if my husband would see this he would call it a hate site" ???
What do you believe in? Are you so shaky? Are you such a chicken? Is you husband such a lightfoot flower-power daydream-cadet?
How did Frank Zappa put it: "Grow up & grow me a chin..."
The fact remains that of nearly 50 posts, only 2 or 3 (including Hugh's) are on thread and a handful more are off thread but still relevant if only for their amusement value. The rest are either trolls, argument with the trolls (some of it valiant and informed, I do admire Beth's patience)or argument about the trolls.
I thought at first that it was a good thing, that the excesses of the Islamic viewpoint would be exposed to view.
But THIS IS GETTING VERY SILLY
Informed debate has been non existent for some days. This was starting to happen before the bill board. There have been a lot of new posters, not all attracted by the billboard as they are not from California.
NEW READERS
Please use the search facility and look in the archive for informed debate and discussion on a variety of topics. Hopefully normal service will be resumed shortly.
Why do we dance around the truth of the issue?
Cairo is the same as Amman, is the same as Dahka, is the same as Islamabad ,is the same as Mosul is the same as Teheran .......islam is islam and the rest of the world [kafir ] are simply considered as cattle , to be done with as one wishes ......but again the bottom line is convert [or revert as they like to say ] or DIE.
And be a dhimmi whilst deciding .
This is in every muslims heart , no exceptions .
Islam was not "designed " to co-exist with anyone . The Q'uran is a handbook for world domination by force , with a brutal murderous philosophy of religious facism , totally intolerant of all else . And it is quite flexible ,as it is "abbrogated " to fit each and every situation .
"1984" as it were, based in a religious perversion.
This is war people ....the Crusades were based in pay , and fortunes and fame ,with a bit of religion ...a reaction to muslim hegemony.
This " Crusade " is based on survival .
The sooner we "kafir " admit that , the better .
Terminator
I won't even deign to answer your post.
I stand by what I said.
Hey Granny W ......informed debate ???
Hmmmmm.....um that doesn't work with the "ROP" people .
Point- counterpoint ?........nope that dont work neither .
Hows about an acceptance of historical fact ? Naaaa..... you argue that with revisionists ?
Fat chance .
What this board serves as , is a bellweather for the uninformed , and purposed ignorant .
A flashing yellow-warning light for the intellectual elite , a "wake-up call " as it were for the "comfortable complacent " .
...and to Sylvester , this IS a hate-site in a manner of speaking a"hate-exposition " board .
It exposes the utter implacable hatred islam has for ANYTHING and ANYONE who is not of islam .
Think your husband could figure that out ?
Hmmm ...you can't .
For God's sake Excalibur, I was just trying to make the point that to the uninitiated, many recent posts could lead a newcomer to think that this was a hate site, I was just taking my husband as an example.
No one admires Jihadwatch more than I do and I have every right to state that I feel some of the comments let the site down. And yes, I'm probably guilty of this myself, particularly after a few glasses of wine. But when the slanging goes on and on, it waters down the message.
Thomas,
I would like to see you read the materials of Ahmed Mansour, Abdullahi Na'im, Wael Hallaq or Fazlur Rahman, who are Muslim and have clearly argued for a non-literal appraoch to interpretation.
Is it any wonder?
But then - Islam will not exist - if the Koran is made null and void.
And that argument may be bought by some - but not enough!
The bloodhsed will STILL continue.
If brownwonder refuses to explain certain parts of the Koran presented to her - then is she really a True Muslim? That is the question.
And it is a very serious Question for this whole world. The 'terrorists' aren't afraid of those parts of the Koran. Why are others? such as brownwonder?
"We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord’, and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding"
Thereby leaving NO room for allah to prove himself true.
Therefore, allah is creating robots. Some of those robots conviniently ignore the murderous parts of their 'duties' - while many other robots do not.
If one part of Islam is sick - then the whole body is sick.
I believe that is the message that has to be driven - until they get it.
How many scenes like the one on every television on the morn of 9-11 will it take before serious answers are demanded of Islam?
No one admires Jihadwatch more than I do and I have every right to state that I feel some of the comments let the site down. And yes, I'm probably guilty of this myself, particularly after a few glasses of wine. But when the slanging goes on and on, it waters down the message.
Silvester
No one can please ALL of the people - All of the time.
Patience applied is best - otherwise - this site will only turn into a group who speaks ony things they like to hear.
They will unintentionally separate themselves from all others - and that is not going to solve anything.
BEth,
Most you be so simply?
"If brownwonder refuses to explain certain parts of the Koran presented to her - then is she really a True Muslim? That is the question."
The first source in explaining the Quran is the Quran itself. I dont practice my religion a la carte. I practice it in whole, InshaAllah. Listen, you may be the star in you little trailer park but to me you are less than an amatuer. Please dont go head to head with me. I feel bad when I have to emabrass people. Its never been my style.
Excaliber,
"Cairo is the same as Amman, is the same as Dahka, is the same as Islamabad ,is the same as Mosul is the same as Teheran .......islam is islam and the rest of the world [kafir ] are simply considered as cattle , to be done with as one wishes ......but again the bottom line is convert [or revert as they like to say ] or DIE"
Next time you make a claim about Islam please refer to its text. Dont go off trying to explain it on your own, you'll get lost and die of starvation somewhere.
Silvester:
"I stand by what I said."-
If you don't stand for something, you fall for anything.
The "hatesite" argument is as good as any Mohammedans accusation of 'racists',' unfair' (I like that because THEY are so fair), 'discriminatory'- or calling us 'hypocrites'-
Silvester: They hate us passionately & they want to kill us. You want to combat that with PeeCee and sweet-talk? Good luck!
One of the things I've noticed is the give-and-take among the non-trolls here; that although there's argument, they don't really fall to the kind of animosity or racist nonsense that some of the trolls have been forced to engage in; base insults, racial slurs, the promotion of false stereotypes, anti-semitism, conspiracy theories, dragging the topic away from the thread. In defending the indefensible, what else is there?
The above thread illustrates this well; absolutism is the response to the ills of the world. And why not? If one makes the assumption that one theologically above reproach, then god is to blame for all your problems - clearly you've angered the deity somehow and he must be appeased. The other way to look at it is the "no atheist in a foxhole" perspective - when death is imminent, what has one to lose? And how much better to make the kufr suffer to please allah? It's often said in the Quran that allah is best pleased with those who go on jihad - kill in his name.
Geoff
Well said Geoff. You have to resort to anger and slanging when defending the indefensible, cut and paste 'oodles' of ranting from the Koran to somehow justify/distance yourself from what we see every day now being done in the name of Islam. As the old saying goes - "actions speak louder than words", and no more evident is this than the middle east.
These acts are not done by a "minority". They are happening too frequently, sometimes in our own countries.
The more I read Shukri, Brownwonder et al - the more ridiculous I see their arguments (they are sure to disagree). They are getting tiresome though, especially when they resort to racial slurs.
Brownwonder , why dont we stop the bullshit , your post /reply made no sense ,except for one who has run out of excuses .
What bloody 'text " are YOU talking [babbling ] about ?
You know damn well what I'm talking about .
I make no "claim " about islam , I STATE THE STARK FACTS ABOUT ISLAM .
Care to refute those facts ????
If yes , then do so , and save our psuedo-intellectual bullshit for someone like Sylvester .
You know what the bottom line is , you simply have not the conviction or stregnth of character to admit it openly , because in your heart of hearts you know islam is bullshit , a hateful, malignant cult that hates all that is different , then seeks to destroy all that is different ...
.......but I guess you must be careful to whom and where you say it .
3rdtimelucky,
If I slur someone, or resort to ad hominen attacks its the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. FOr instance, I cant help but to insult Beth, its too dam easy. There arent many people ont his site I take seriously.
People on this site and I have alot in common. I too hate when Muslims kill for reasons not defended in the Quran or the example of the Prophet Muhammed.
Islamic law is a universe of information and regulations down to how you are supposed to wash in between your toes.
I too want Muslims to be educated in Islamic law so these things didnt take place. BEcause Muslims cloak their nationalistic driven, anti semitic, anti western, mysogynist destruction of everyone and eveything in ISlamic rheotoric, doesnt mean that it is in fact halal (permissible) As much as you guys would like it to be because you want to convert the Muslims, it just isnt the case.
Muslims need not take matters into thier own hands.
Geoff,
Allah Azzawajal also loves and is pleased with,
3:134
Those who spend [in Allah's Cause - deeds of charity, alms, etc.] in prosperity and in adversity, who repress anger, and who pardon men; verily, Allah loves Al-Muhsinun (the gooddoers).
3:146
And many a Prophet (i.e. many from amongst the Prophets) fought (in Allah's Cause) and along with him (fought) large bands of religious learned men. But they never lost heart for that which did befall them in Allah's Way, nor did they weaken nor degrade themselves. And Allah loves As-Sabirin (the patient ones, etc.).
3:159
And by the Mercy of Allah, you dealt with them gently. And had you been severe and harshhearted, they would have broken away from about you; so pass over (their faults), and ask (Allah's) Forgiveness for them; and consult them in the affairs. Then when you have taken a decision, put your trust in Allah, certainly, Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him).
9:4
Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).
49:9
And if two parties or groups among the believers fall to fighting, then make peace between them both, but if one of them rebels against the other, then fight you (all) against the one that which rebels till it complies with the Command of Allah; then if it complies, then make reconciliation between them justly, and be equitable. Verily! Allah loves those who are equitable.
61:4
Verily, Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in rows (ranks) as if they were a solid structure .
I cant help but to insult Beth, its too dam easy. - BW
Obviously BW is mirroring her founders hate.
"People on this site and I have alot in common. I too hate when Muslims kill for reasons not defended in the Quran or the example of the Prophet Muhammed". -BW
Glad to see that you admit that the Koran DOES allow killing - "for reasons not defended", in other words, the Koran does allow killing.
"the example of the Prophet Muhammed". -BW Yes he killed many, many people.
I like 49:9 mr brownwonder , it explains how so many sunnis slaughter so many shia [and this is not isolated ].
But instead of posting your meaningless verses ,which most muslims ignore , pervert ,abbrogate or disobey , which leads most sane men to believe that you are all full of shit, why dont you , in your own words ,and according to your own understanding , explain:
HOW WILL ISLAM ULTIMATELY DEAL WITH THE KAFIR ?
p.s. I really dont think any non-muslim gives a rat's ass whether muslims convert ....that is just part of your VICTIM-HOOD/PERSECUTION/ PARANOIA -REPERTOIRE OF EXCUSES FOR BLOWING PEOPLE UP .
Personally I think all muslims should have one big country to live in , where they can create their own little hell on earth [like the Taliban did ]and exercise all the little perversions of their cult upon whomsoever they wish ,whenever they wish, as any people willing to go to such a place,fully deserve such a fate , out of sheer stupidity if nothing else .[oh and there are many indeed -about 1.2 billion ]
Of course, Brownfinger, we don't care about the tolerant parts of the Quran; in fact, we demand tolerance from your moongod. That's the way it HAS to be. That's mandatory.
Conversely, it's where islam preaches hate that we have a problem; where islam preaches indignation that we become indignant; where islam preaches intolerance that we become, in turn, intolerant.
Keep your peace to yourself and also your violence, and we shall have perfect understanding. For we have already seen the history of it and its writings, and they are not good.
I'm forced to wonder why I'm speaking at all nicely to a known racist and xenophobe; beats me. Perhaps even I turn the other cheek a little.
Geoff
brownwonder:
"The first source in explaining the Quran is the Quran itself" {BINGO!!!
I feel bad when I have to emabrass people. Its never been my style.
Never?
or were you just kidding? It's hard to tell
This is war people ....the Crusades were based in pay , and fortunes and fame ,with a bit of religion ...a reaction to muslim hegemony.
This " Crusade " is based on survival .
The sooner we "kafir " admit that , the better .
Posted by: Excaliber
Excaliber, I don't believe I've ever heard it put so well.
I thought it good to repeat it again
I cant help but to insult Beth, its too dam easy. There arent many people ont his site I take seriously.
Should I wonder why that is brownwonder?
Is it because they are not approaching you with the mirror that Islam needs?
Yes - I do believe that is it
3:146
And many a Prophet (i.e. many from amongst the Prophets) fought (in Allah's Cause) and along with him (fought) large bands of religious learned men.
brownwonder?
kings fought - but NOT the prophets.
The prophets were the ones killed - for speaking things that others didn't like.
Sound familiar?
1Jo 3:15 ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Obviously BW is mirroring her founders hate.
3rdtimelucky?
You can choose to believe me - or can choose not to believe me [I believe YOU will believe me]
You and I think exactly alike.
Because I answer - as I read.
And that is EXACTLY why I erk brownwonder. But this is the funny part:
I'm not the one who erks her.
her allah does.
That's the bad part - the Truth being revealed is going to erk a lot of them.
For some time now - I believe 'certain powers' [I don't want to say specifically] know this - and are working fevorishly to undermine Islam - first - before an all out verbal attack.
Those who catch this - just be patient with them
Personally I think all muslims should have one big country to live in , where they can create their own little hell on earth
Excaliber - they already did.
And then it spread - thanks to the bull-shitters who call themselves 'Christian leaders' and LOVE seats of honor - also power - as they sit at the politicians' tables and spew their own desires.
Hey - even the Vatican preaches that "Islam is a religion of peace"
although - I'm not sure about their new king
I believe in putting the leaders on the HOTSEAT! ALL of them!
And if you want to see the ones who REALLY DREAD the Word of God - no one runs better or faster than they do.
The Word of God will not ONLY destroy Islam - but them also - and that is why "We the people" have to set ourselves to do what they were appointed to do - but have refused to do so.
That is not in anyway the act of converting others!
Islam will convert you - or you die.
The Word of God will speak - and you can make of it what you will.
The Lord gave a MAJOR Prophecy people - about Palestine.
And it is that Truth about Palestine - that will destroy ALL of Islam.
Now that one there - is the greatest fear of all of the Islamic preachers.
And it is the Islamic preachers - who know what I'm saying is true - BETTER than all the rest.
So keep presenting the international violations that allah commits - But keep with you the knowledge about the Prophecy of Palestine [of which the saints do 'sing']
NONE of that means that you 'have to convert' to anything. You have the right to believe as you wish - and NO ONE has the right to take that from you]
It only makes you a better warrior in this war that Islam provoked.
And know - Islam is the one who is VIOLATING the right to believe as we wish.
That robs Islam of the protection of 'Freedom of Religion'
3rd time lucky,
Ofcourse the Quran also killing, isnt there an ayat that says that fitna is worse than killing. We kill adulterors, you know that, apostates, murderors. Where is the controversy?
Beth,
The Quran talks about the murder of prophets:
2:61
And (remember) when you said, "O Musa (Moses)! We cannot endure one kind of food. So invoke your Lord for us to bring forth for us of what the earth grows, its herbs, its cucumbers, its Fum (wheat or garlic), its lentils and its onions." He said, "Would you exchange that which is better for that which is lower? Go you down to any town and you shall find what you want!" And they were covered with humiliation and misery, and they drew on themselves the Wrath of Allah. That was because they used to disbelieve the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah and killed the Prophets wrongfully. That was because they disobeyed and used to transgress the bounds (in their disobedience to Allah, i.e. commit crimes and sins).
2:91
And when it is said to them (the Jews), "Believe in what Allah has sent down," they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us." And they disbelieve in that which came after it, while it is the truth confirming what is with them. Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him to them): "Why then have you killed the Prophets of Allah aforetime, if you indeed have been believers?"
4:155
Because of their breaking the covenant, and of their rejecting the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, and of their killing the Prophets unjustly, and of their saying: "Our hearts are wrapped (with coverings, i.e. we do not understand what the Messengers say)" - nay, Allah has set a seal upon their hearts because of their disbelief, so they believe not but a little.
That's the trouble with your cult brown-wonder , there are just too, too, many "good Q'uranic reasons " for killing or torturing your fellow human being , while feeling yourself as a saint of allah .
Have you not yet realized that all civilised people see you for what you are - barbarians and savages of a death cult . You'd kill your own son or daughter for the sake of Sharia law , indeed you do it as we speak , mothers slash their daughters , brothers throw acid in the faces of their sisters , you behead , you stone , you hang ,you murder, you cut off limbs ,you circumcize your women and treat them as dogs ,as property , all because you can not control your own sexual desires , and ALL , ALL IN THE NAME OF YOUR god .
You people are the worse thing to hit this world since the nazis , and like the nazis you will be crushed , simply for what you are . You are only 1.2 billion in a world of 6 billion - you will not now , or ever , prevail .
Each new vicious act that is recorded , wins you another enemy . But you are blind to that , as are ALL cults , you can not see beyond your own hatred and fear .
You fear hell and you fear life , your very idea of heaven is ridiculous , complete with virgins [or young boys ] which really exposes your deepest perversions regarding human sexuality and your psychotic phobias regarding it .
But most of all you fear truth ,as you attempt to wipe it out whenever it is presented .
You destin yourselves for destruction , in this life and the next .
p.s . I know of a biblical character who behaves in that excat same way .
Excaliber,
"You'd kill your own son or daughter for the sake of Sharia law , indeed you do it as we speak , mothers slash their daughters , brothers throw acid in the faces of their sisters , you behead , you stone , you hang ,you murder, you cut off limbs ,you circumcize your women and treat them as dogs ,as property , all because you can not control your own sexual desires , and ALL , ALL IN THE NAME OF YOUR god ."
I dont think I could bring myself to kill my own children or someone I knew but If I had true faith, InshaAllah, I would have to accept the laws of Allah Azzawajal. I mean if I cant go through with his punishment, I would have to feel even worse about the possibility of my children residing in the hell fire. WHich is worse?
I dont have women. But I dont remember Prophet Muhammed (sallalalhu alaihi wa salam) or his companions doing any of the above to his women folk.
Men and women should marry if they can and if not they should fast and remember to lower thier gaze. Also they shoudlnt be alone together. We all have sexual desires so we have to above options to combat it. We just dont like illegal sexual intercourse which is anti woman, man, family and soceity.
BooYaa!
People see me as a barbarian? Gosh darn and to think my only goal in life is to please the people. BEtter find a different goal. Oh I know, how about worshipping Allah, without partners and having full faith in him.
yea , ok ........in the meantime these barbarous acts occur only amongst criminals and ....overzealous muslims .
"men and women should lower their gaze " and if not ? Of course ! there will be one of allah's little policemen/enforcers to make sure they do - under pain of torture or death .
brownwonder if you truly had faith in ANY supreme being , you would not blaspheme that deity by assuming his will and acting on your own human "idea " of what his punishment should or shouldn't be.
You blaspeme once to think it and twice to act on it .
Your faith is not strong enough to trust his will , so you take it into your own hands , for lack of faith , lack of confidence in your faith , your "assurement and affirmation " comes from your own punishment of others , the harsher the punishment , the weaker the will ,and the weaker your faith .
The world has already gotten a good look at a world order by Sharia ....the Taliban regime , where men are punished for shaving , women beaten for dropping their veil - please take your sanctimonious B.S. and shove it .
Any organized attempt on the part of islam to inflict its barbarous cult on any one, not dumb enough to accept it , will be met with a struggle to the death - dont delude yourself brownwonder ,any such world order will never come to be , for it can only exist among seperate enclaves of psycho-paths , you are on the road to destruction , brought about by your own device .
"please people " ??? No , just leave them alone and keep your vile cult to yourself and fellow deviates who choose to live by it , for you are in no way pleasing God , your are pleasing a god , and that god is you, and your tendency to hate that which is unlike you .
I dont care what you think the Prophet did or didn't do , nor do you really know what he did or didn't do , and that is evident anywhere you look in islam .
Because apparently NO ONE in islam is living according to any "golden rule " , instead they live by simple human "religious vindictiveness " with an over riding propensity to inflict pain and suffering on fellow human beings based on percieved humiliation .
No if you had any faith at all , you would simply shun or ban from the community those you percieve as "offenders " and let God deal with their punishment or execution , and not take it into your own hands .........or dont you think God is Almighty enough to do it Himself ???
You have no faith , only your own insecurities .
You are not pleasing od , you are only pleasing that in human beings which they deem as acceptable , for if you don't ....they will kill you also .