The Egyptian journalist Rim Azmi speaks out against Muslim reformers. "Egyptian Journalist on Muslim Liberals in the West: 'Muslims in Name, Apostates in Fact,'" from MEMRI:
"They aren't Westerners and they have not attained this honor in the eyes of the West, however, the West embraced them, not out of love for them, but rather in order to denigrate Islam. The West found in them that which they have long sought, because they were brought up in the land of Islam and they fully understand how to hurt its people. Since these people found no rest in their own countries, the West welcomed them, opening their arms to them so that they could continue to rain poison arrows down on the true faith [i.e., Islam]."If we look carefully, we can distinguish these people's different levels on the scale of rebellion. Some of them openly scoff at the Noble Koran; some demand that the Koran be revised; and there are others who get mixed up between worn-out [folk] habits and customs of the Muslims, and the fundamental principles of religion.
"You encounter a long list of those who call themselves Islamic thinkers. These people put themselves above the divine message, and their arrogance deludes them into thinking that they can act as equals with the overpowering miracle of the Koran. Thus, they strongly demand a rereading of the Koran, or what is an even greater crime, they demand that one listen to those who offer a new allegorical interpretation of the religious text....
"Their purpose is to invent a version of Islam in accordance with the latest fashions, which will be consistent with the rhythm of contemporary Western civilization.
Several years ago in Islam Unveiled I wrote that "the problem is that for all its schisms, sects, and multiplicity of voices, Islam’s violent elements are rooted in its core texts. That makes it extremely unlikely that the voices of moderation will ultimately silence the militants — because the militants will always be able to make the case that they are standing for the true expression of the faith."
Rim Azmi here gives us yet another example of this phenomenon. As I pointed out in Islam Unveiled, to the jihadists, moderates are just hypocrites or apostates -- and they are able to use the Qur'an and Sunnah to convince other Muslims that this is so.
This is the great challenge that moderate Muslims face. Yet when I have pointed this out to some leading moderates and asked them how they intend to answer it, all I have gotten is abuse -- or silence. This casts into doubt the efficacy of their whole enterprise.
Azmi continues with an enemies list:
"Then we come to another degree of arrogance. Their champion needs no introduction; he is Salman Rushdie, who in 1989 wrote his revolting novel, The Satanic Verses. And following an Iranian fatwa which called for his killing, he began moving secretly in European countries while arrogantly scoffing at the idea of the Koran being revealed to the Prophet Muhammad."And there is also the Somali woman who was behind the killing of the Dutch director [Van Gogh] whose story we followed at the end of 2004. She is a conservative member of the Dutch parliament of Somali origin named Ayaan Hirshi Ali, and the author of the novel Submission, from which her late friend, the Dutch director Theo Van Gogh, derived the film which offends both Islam and Muslims and which angered the Muslims. A second part of the movie [was planned], if not for the fact that he was killed by a 26-year-old Moroccan immigrant.
"What occurred in Holland occurred also in a neighboring country which shares the same culture, namely Belgium, when a member of the parliament from Antwerp by the name of Mimount Bousakla began seeking publicity by exploiting the atmosphere of Islamophobia.
"Mimount, who complains to the Dutch [ sic, should be Belgian] police that she is being threatened, is playing the same game at which others before her excelled, namely, using insolence [against Islam] in order to gain fame at the expense of Islam, and then rushing to portray herself as a victim of narrow-minded people, having received some threats against her life."
Yes, of course. There are no narrow-minded people among European Muslims. To think there are would be "Islamophobia."
Guys:
Lately there has been A LOT of troll feeding going on at JW. Most of us know that this is a total waste of time and effort but occasionally the provocation is so egregious it can't be avoided.
I'd like to point out that no muslim poster to this site (with the probable exception of Jsingleton and Thomas Haidon, who are anti-jihad) has ever been able to present a cogent, logical, substantive, well-reasoned argument that was on-topic and responded appropriately to a challenege. (As you all know, critical thinking skills are discouraged in islam and are indeed anathema to the true "believer".) The best they can do is resort to ad hominems, tu quoque and other meaningless tactics, always the same ones that they get from their same old tired websites, as well as post long cut-and-pastes that are also from those same and now-all-too-familiar (yawn) websites, which most of us regulars just skip right on over without reading since we've seen it all so many times before.
I'm not saying that a response or two isn't called for from time to time, but you troll-feeders (and you know who you are) are allowing the muslims to hijack entire threads and establish their OWN agendas, diverting us from Robert's and our own. Do you really want to give them that kind of influence or platform?
I suggest that if you can't keep yourself from endlessly engaging these trolls (which only encourages them, as they are always involved in either jihad or da'wa), you pony up at the donations link on the JW homepage to compensate Spencer for the bandwidth that they waste and abuse.
muslim trolls are drawn to this site like flies to a sh@t-pile, but that doesn't mean we have to buy into their efforts at manipulation and their stale, tired rhetoric. It's just getting so OLD.
BTW, the trolls hardly ever visit DW on a regular and consistent basis, so for those of you just as fed up with the infestation as I am, consider spending more time over there.
I plan to post this message more than once to get the message out. Sorry for the repetition, but it simply had to be said - AGAIN.
CGW
I watch Arab News Daily on Link TV (Dish network, the program is Mosaic). Cairo News was covering a demonstration by the Muslim Brotherhood, their numbers are awesome. They call themselves Reformers and are militating for "reform".
It is the same throughout the Muslim world. For instance a Syrian Human Rights lawyer was livid in his defense of Jihadis who were denied their human rights by the Syrian Government.
There are too many words in the English language that are vague and ambiguous and devoid of real meaning, such as reform and democracy, but Muslims and other manipulators employ them like laser guided bombs to obfuscate their agenda.
When a Muslim speaks of reform or democracy, he does not have in mind the notions that the west has, were they mean equality (for all) and civil liberties.
Saudi Arabia now claims it is a democracy, because they have municipal elections (in which only men can vote), Kuwait is the same. And Iran has elections as well, but only one ruling party.
Islamic Democracy "One man, one vote, one time".
Thanks for an eye-opening article translated by MEMRI and the priceless quote contained within:
"And there is also the Somali woman who was behind the killing of the Dutch director [Van Gogh]"
This deluded Eyptian journalist, and a woman no less, makes it sound as if Hirshi Ali was the reason Van Gogh was killed. Non-Muslim Westerners need to read quotes and opinions like this OVER and OVER. It is the world as we know and understand it, turned on its head. And this is not written by some nut on the internet (like me!), but rather a journalist writing for an official Egyptian weekly newspaper.
If you haven't seen Submission, by the way, do so. You can find it on the internet and it's quite short (10-12 min.). It is unbelievably benign. I was expecting something shocking and, instead, got tasteful dissent. Muslims get upset at this? What a bunch of thin-skinned ninnies whose faith runs about as deep as the roots of an oak tree. That's why they scream and cry at a little gust of wind in the form of "Submission." If an actual tornado passed overhead, Islam would topple over from its own weight.
CGW:
If I can interject another opinion.
These Muslims who post provide an invaluable service, their postings expose themselves, and provide evidence of their flawed thinking and real agenda.
Such as Brownwonder endorsing Jihad and "justifying it". Where else do you get that forthrightness.
Every other Muslim who posts falls back on the abrogated explanation that it is an "inward struggle".
The posts of these Muslims are not a threat, not to me anyway, but are extremely informative and interesting, as I take the requisite time to follow up, research and think, and they only refill my ammo box.
What reflects badly on the Jihad Watchers are the retorts and flames, they are childish.
If a JW is incapable of a reasoned reply, due to lack of knowledge in Islamism, then they should keep quiet and not lower themselves by retorting with denigration and flames. (which validates your suggestion).
We have educated and enlightened men like Hugh and Robert to handle the claims and obfuscation of the Muslims.
Here's a FAQ on Internet Trolls
Are the Muslims trolling or just defending their faith? Is defense of the faith trolling, if so then anyone of faith is a troll. Careful.
At one time or another we can all be accused of trolling, especially if our posts are repetitive (opinions sans content), or push someone else's hot button (happens all of the time to the best of us), or are controversial (in places where the only voices heard or listened to are those of the preacher and choir).
I actually benefit from Brownwonder and IA786, but not the way they would hope or intend, their posts are counterproductive to their intentions.
And I trust in Hugh and Robert and some of the more informed and erudite posters to counter their posts, and draw them out.
Former liberal WF,
Couldn't agree more about Submission; how could something so tame be so aggressively hated?
Geoff
"Might makes right." As long as Muslim populations, whether here in the West or in Muslim countries, tolerate and allow extremists to make policy for them, there will be no possibility of "reform" or coexistence in or with the West.
"These people put themselves above the message of the noble Koran." What is "noble" about the Koran? Hatred, violence, and villainy are the "message" that this ideology has spread throughout the world. There may be some peace-loving Muslims, but they all read the same Koran and approve of jihad as an institution because it is from the "noble Koran." Thus, Islam is not a religion of peace.
Ah!
So typical of Muslims wanting to imitate the Non Muslims.
Reminds of a hadith, I cant recall it right now but the message was the there would come a time when Muslims would immitate the kafiroon so much that if they called into the hole of a lizard we would be right behind them.
Giaor,
There is no such thing as a the abrogated explanation that it is an "inward struggle".
Jihad is what Allah Azzawjal says it is in Al Quran. IT is what Prophet Muhammed (sallaalahu alaihi wa salam) says it is in his Sunnah, and what the Sahabah (Compaions of the Prophet) understood it to be. There are types and conditions of Jihad. For the individual, the state, etc.
As long as I am honest about Islam; as long as I take from the Quran and the Sunnah my understanding of Islam; I am being very productive. I dont come here to convert, I just want the truth to be told not from opinions but from the sources.
For those of you that understand french, please read this site. It shows there are some real philosophers working on an new lecture of Islam. Unfortunately they don't recieve the same attention in the press as the double-languaged Tariq Ramadan and are almost unknown to a lot of intellectuals in the moslim world.
site is "hidden" under my name. here the link in real:
http://www.telquel-online.com/158/couverture_158_1.shtml
Ces nouveaux penseurs can try as they like, but as few Muslims, I'm afraid, will read the Moroccan-aimed TelQuel as read the French literary journal Tel Quel. And the attempt to offer a new reading (lecture) of the Qur'an, one that desacralises it -- which would mean to no longer describe it as the literal Word of God -- may appeal to a very few, but will not solve the problem. How many Muslims will accept this? On what authority? It is one more desperate attempt, on the part of some no doubt a last way for them to hold on to their own faith, which out of filial piety or fear they seem unable simply to jettison -- why? Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina can do it, Walid Shoebat can do it, so many others can do it -- why is it so hard to see right through and stop trying this Muslim casuisitry in order to retain something?
As to the belief that once upon a time, before the gates of ijtihad were slammed shut, Islam was full of all sorts of rich diversity, so many different schools of thought -- I'm afraid that from the get-go, Islam was largely a geopolitial program, constructed out of pagan Arab lore, and stories and figures appropriated from Christianity and Judaism, and mixed up to provide a new religion (all sorts of religions get started, and those that have staying power are often awarded a certain status, though not all of them deserve it) that would justify, and promote, Arab conquest of more advanced, wealthier, more numerous populations of Jews and Christians in Mesopotamia, Syria, Judea, Egypt, and North Africa.
These desperate penseurs -- some of whom, such as Mohammad Arkoun --are better than most, still cannot bring themselves to do what in the end they will have to do. See that Islma cannot be reformed, or those who would like to engage in a certain verbal prestidigitation in order to quickly subject Islam to the same Higher Criticism that Christianity and Judaism subjected themselves to, are missing the point: the Believers in Islam are far more primitive, and their text, the literal Word of God, simply cannot be tampered with in the same way.
Then there is no hope to reform Islam -- is that my impossibly grim conclusion?
Yes.
Brownfinger: "There is no such thing as a the abrogated explanation that it is an "inward struggle"."
Yes, we know. Thanks, though. =)
Geoff
"...their arrogance deludes them.."
"Then we come to another degree of arrogance..."
Azmi doesn't do irony, does she?
BTW, for anyone in the UK who is interested, Irshad Manji is in London this week:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1479418,00.html