More on how democratic openness is unleashing the forces of Islamism in the Muslim world. From AP, "Banned Islamic Group Protests in Egypt"
CAIRO, Egypt May 4, 2005 — Thousands of supporters of the banned Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt's largest Islamic group, protested across the country Wednesday in an escalation of the opposition campaign demanding political reform. Police arrested hundreds of protesters.More than 2,500 Muslim Brotherhood members and supporters demonstrator in front of a large downtown mosque, some waving copies of the Quran and chanting, "Reform is a religious necessity, reform is Prophet's way." One of the banners read, "Freedom is a religious duty."
The protests held on the 77th birthday of President Hosni Mubarak were the latest show of strength by the Brotherhood, which is probably Egypt's largest opposition movement but for years held few large demonstrations to avoid provoking the government. In recent months it has organized repeated demonstrations, joining other groups in an unprecedented string of protests against Mubarak...
"We stress that the Brotherhood continues to demand reform. These oppressive means only increase the tensions in Egypt," Brotherhood leader Mohammed Mahdi Akef said in a statement...
The Muslim Brotherhood, which calls for implementation of Islamic law in Egypt, was established in 1928 and banned since 1954. It renounced violence in the 1970s, and the state tolerates some of it activities but has frequently imprisoned its leaders. Fifteen Brotherhood members have seats in parliament, elected as independents and forming the largest opposition bloc.As it has thrown its weight in protests alongside more secular reform movements, the Brotherhood has sought to emphasize its nationalist credentials. During the Cairo protests, participants chanted, "The Muslim Brotherhood is part of the nation," and "Copts are sons of the nation" in a gesture of unity with Egypt's Christian minority.
At a conference Wednesday, Brotherhood members and other opposition figures and pro-reform activists called for lifting emergency laws imposed by Mubarak in 1981 after the assassination of former President Anwar Sadat. Critics say the laws, which give security forces broad powers including great leeway in making arrests, are used to stifle opposition...
Why resort to messy and unpredictable coups and assassinations when you can get yourself voted straight into power? Bet they've been reading Mein Kampf.
Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me!!!
Are the Christians in Egypt that foolish to believe some one waving a qu-ran???
Qur’an 5:35 “Believers, fear Allah and seek the way to approach Him, striving hard, fighting Jihad with all your might in His Cause that you may be successful. As for the disbelievers [previously defined as Christians], if they had everything on earth, two times over, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Doom, it would never be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful torment. They will desire to get out of the fire, but they shall not be released from it. They shall have an everlasting torture.”
OH MY!!
Qur’an 5:17 “Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, ‘The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.’”
PRETTY CLEAR TO ME!!
Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low.” [Another translation says:] “pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection.”
TIME TO SHOW THEM HOW WRONG THEY ARE!!
Qur’an 5:77 “Say (Muhammad): ‘People of the Book, do not overstep the bounds in your religion, or follow the people who erred and led many astray. Cursed are the unbelievers among the Children of Israel by David and Jesus.... They do vile things, allying themselves with the infidels so that Allah’s indignation is upon them and in torment they will suffer for all eternity.” [Another translation reads:] “Curses were pronounced on the unbelievers, the Children of Israel who rejected Islam, by the tongues of David and of Jesus because they disobeyed and rebelled.”
NOW ASK YOURSELF WHAT THE CAIR TELL THE PRESS AND MOST PEOPLE WE HAVE RESPECT FOR THE CHRISTIANS WE BELIEVE IN JESUS TOO???
YEA THEY BELIVE HE WAS EVIL AND YOU ARE TO WORSHIP HIM ARE A PAGAN??
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen
When and where do we sign up for the Christian Brotherhood?
That's a lot of "misunderstanders of Islam" but what else can one expect from a fly blown pit such as Egypt? The Pharaohs are spinning in their pyramid topped graves at the mess the children of Allah have made
Democracy is on the march: Egypt, where the main opposition turns out to be less corrupt, but more Muslim, than Mubarak's Family-and-Friends-Plan for Misrule, "Palestine" where a plausible longterm loyal aide to Arafat, who happens to wear glasses and a suit and can, when necessary, frame his phrases politely for the Americans and the Israelis too, continues to find success for the transparent strategy of getting whatever he can, and then -- in five years, or 10, or 20 -- having pocketed it all, will turn up to full force yet again the pressure, diplomatic and military, which in truth he never had any intention, and little ability, to remove, for no Infidel sovereign state can be permanently contemplated; the only argument that could avoid war is that of "darura" or necessity, which must be based on the obvious, overwhelming, superiority of the Infidel enemy. And in Lebanon, Syria is out but not down, and in any case, we are all left with the embarrassing realization that the hysterical excitement of some that yet again, "Democracy is on the march" in the Middle East meant something else. In Lebanon, it could mean the final destruction of the Maronites. The only hope for them is something like a resurrection of the old order, the one that permitted Charles Malik -- who understand Islam perfectly -- to be Lebanon's outstanding political figure in the 1950s. The notion that the Hezbullah lion will lie down with the Maronite lamb is nonsense; the failure to protect, and promote, the interests of Lebanese -- and through them other Middle Eastern -- Christians is something that remains. The Lebanese army general, Suleiman, with his standard anti-Israel rhetoric, bodes ill. But "democracy is on the march."
And what's more, we are "winning" the "war on terror." Why, this figure, and now that figure, has been rounded up. Put out of commission. Strike that name. Soon we will have Osama bin Laden himself. And the game will be over. Point, set, match.
But please, don't be -- what was it Agnew said -- a nattering nabob of negativism. Don't go on some more about the misallocationof men, money, materiel, and militay morale. Don't worry aloud about the state of that military, and its forced fixation on Iraq (and Afghanistan). Things are going swimmingly. If only you knew, you chocolate soldiers and armchair strategists, who have never worked with the locals, never seen how brave they can be. Churchill-- wasn't he the one who admired Muslim soldiers for the way they faced death? Didn't he say something about that in "The River War" (yes, he did -- and check what else he said in that same passage).
But look at everything we've done for them. Don't be like the American and, still worse, the world press. Look at what we've done. We removed a tyrant. We built water-treatment plants. We built power plants. We keep repairing those oilfields and pipelines. We built thousands of schoolrooms and rebuilt, and re-equipped, a hundred hospitals. And the candy. And the soccer balls. Look at the stores full of electronic equipment. Look at the new cars all over Baghdad. See -- we're winning. Those hearts. Those minds. We're building a huge new embassy right in the middle of Baghdad. We will keep on keeping the Iraqis happy, to the very best of our taxpayers, and those pliant, submissive military men who may have their doubts, here and there, but manfully keep slogging. And it is very difficult to consider that the things you achieve with such difficulty, and cost, might not in fact achieve what you need to achieve, if you have misdefined the conflict, misunderstood its very nature and the reason all that building and rebuilding will be pockted, but will change not a whit the attitude of the largely ungrateful, or only momentarily grateful, recipients. Some may show a certain friendliness now (but how few compared to what was expected, and how lukewarm, how complaining so many are, though no one else was able, or willing, to free them from Saddam Hussein). But they could change on a dime -- and they will.
No, sorry -- just a moment of doubt. Forget that last little remark. Everything is going far far better than you know. In Iraq. In Afghanistan. Ordinary people are leading much better lives. And won't that lead to good things in the end? Doesn't it always? And as Iraq goes, so goes -- of course -- Egypt and Saudi Arabia, and Syria, and the U.A.E., and Kuwait, and Algeria, and...well, just list all 22 members of the Arab League right here.
And once the Middle East is secured, there will be no need to worry about the islamization of Europe. Or anything else. We can all get back to the mixture as before, because there is no attempt to spread Islam all over the globe. This kind of scare stuff will not work. You forget -- Tom Friedman himself said it -- this is just a war within Islam. We Infidels really don't count. Sure, we have a dog in this fight -- the overwhelming majority of "moderates." But that's about it. All those fears of "Eurabia" are ridiculous. Exaggerated. The fantasy of armchair strategists, who've never bedded down in one of Saddam Hussein's own palaces, or picked up their mail at F.O.B. Danger.
Relax. The "war on terror" will soon be won, and that'll be that.
Obviously, according to the US gov't and the sentiments of some in this board, Democracy is undesirable in the Muslim world. In virtually every democratic election, those pesky "Islamists" win. See Iraq, Algeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait...the list goes on.
Please do stop claiming that the US govt is out to establish democracy in the M.E. It has very clearly never intended to do so.
Up is down, and down is up; Egypt is a future enemy. The U.S. supports their police state with a few billion. It will change and we should look to a reformed Iran as more of a friend, simply because they are Persian , and not Arab Sunni
Hugh, you actually give me hope for those under islam's thumb - that there might be peace after all.
I wish that it might be so, but I'm afraid I can't believe in it at the moment. Perhaps when more of those in islam begin to show more tolerance for other religions, and a more tenative perspective on their worldview.
Then again, as we've seen, in some cases that seems to amount to nothing, almost.
Geoff
Maybe I am wrong, I don't know
Of course, Shirki. That's why they allowed the islamicists to win in Iraq, against their own preferences and worldview. Because they're not in favour of democracy. Sure sure.
But at least, by bitching about the selection made by the people now, you have precedence to say you were against the election when the islamicist government starts 'abrogating' human rights. Then, too, whenever any islamic government does anything wrong, you can blame the Americans, or the 'Israelis', or the worldwide Jewish conspiracy, or even just say that they haven't achieved "true" islam, which would, of course, be perfect, and eternally unlocatable, like the lost Scriptures of Issa.
And as an ironic rotten cherry on top of a poop slurry, you're actually not in favour of freedom yourself; or, only if it brings sharia, which will then end the pesky freedom. (And prevent "fornication".)
It must be easy not to be in favour of anything. Or, at least, anything rational or fair.
Geoff
Shurki,
Are you all brothers because none of you know who your fathers are and you just might really be related?
No doubt we will see people being killed during these protests that are intended to
show how peaceful the Muslim Brotherhood
group is.
Irony is SO sweet.
The Muslim Brotherhood demands the right to be free to destroy freedom.
Nah.
It's been tried in several places already, under the names "The Nazi Brotherhood", "The Fascist Brotherhood", and "The Communist Brotherhood".
They got power, and ended freedom.
Until freedom rose to end them. (China pending.)
We've got you number, O' Muslim Brotherhood.
Zero.
(And you didn't invent it, the Hindus did.)
Obviously, according to the US gov't and the sentiments of some in this board, Democracy is undesirable in the Muslim world. In virtually every democratic election, those pesky "Islamists" win. See Iraq, Algeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait...the list goes on.
Posted by: Shukri at May 5, 2005 07:19 PM
NOT THAT SOME HERE DON'T WANT IT WE JUST DON'T THINK MULSUMS ARE CAPABLE OF IT!!
MULSUMS DON'T SEAM TO BE ABLE TO GET ALONG WITH ANY ONE EVEN EACH OTHER??
SUNIES FIGHTING SHITES FIGHTING KURDS FIGHTING ALL NON MULSUMS THE RECORD AINT LOOKING TO GOOD EVEN IN THE WEST WITH ALL THE TRIMMINGS THEY CLAIM POOR POOR MUSSI YOU HAVE TO BOW TO US THE RECORD SPEAKS LOUD AND CLEAR!!!
WE LOVE OUR WAY OF LIFE AND WILL FIGHT TO KEEP IT.....
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen
PS
Hugh I think ubl[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] is dead so that aint going to happen after what mulsum could resest that 50,000,000 dollars on his head dead or alive??
"Thousands of supporters of the banned Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt's largest Islamic group, protested across the country Wednesday in an escalation of the opposition campaign demanding political reform. Police arrested hundreds of protesters."
Can you imagine demonstrating for the right to be in chains? This is in effect what they want. More rules and punishment, please. islam=chains.
"Hugh, you actually give me hope for those under islam's thumb - that there might be peace after all.
I wish that it might be so, but I'm afraid I can't believe in it at the moment."
-from a comment above
I'm afraid my awkward attempt, by stating in deadpan fashion that which is the very opposite of what I believe -- went awry. I do not believe that "democracy is on the march in the Middle East" and I do not believe it would necessarily, or even likely, result in anything that would be beneficial to Infidels. In fact, the illusion that it is the absence of "democracy" that explains Muslim behavior -- and not Islam itself -- is dangerous. I have no hope for permanent peace between Islam and the rest of the world. My hope is that non-Muslims will educate themselves about Islam, diminish Muslim oil and gas revenues, stop the flow of Muslims into non-Muslim lands and create conditions which will make it more, rather than less difficult, for the conduct of Da'wa and of Muslim life in the lands of the Infidels, beginning with the attempt to weed out all those guilty of perjuring themselves when they took the oath of allegiance to an Infidel nation-state, to Infidel fellow-citizens, and to, in the case of the United States, to the American constitution. It should not be hard to point out that Islam teaches loyalty solely to Islam and to fellow Muslims. Once this is clearly and widely understood, other conclusions will follow.
Sorry to have misled or confused you, or anyone else.
Hugh Fitzgerald:
Nobody does it better! Nobody is more knowledgable, every one of your posts is a breath of fresh air! How happy I would be if there were more of you and I could call you my friend and mentor! I mean it, straight from the heart!
The world would be a better place if you, or people with your knowhow and understanding - were in the 'right' positions, it would make such a difference!
Unfortunately for us all, pencil- pushers and faceless crackpots reign supreme. Naiveté in the extreme occupies the white house, senate and congress. My belief in democracy is waning, sarcasm makes way for cynicism, frustration and despair is all that remains, the ideals of the late sixties have become desert sand...
Jihad Watch is the most important contribution to civilization as we know it folks, don't blow it...!
What with Robert's sarcasm and Hugh's deadpan irony, anyone would think this was a British site.
Sorry to go OT, I'm in mourning - 'Gorgeous' George Galloway got in on the Muslim anti-semitism vote, defeating (half Jewish) Labour Oona King. While I'm delighted to see Labour's majority slashed - they are a tax and spend party - this is dreadful news.
Democracy may not be on the march in the Middle East, but possibly the massive turn-outs of support for Hezbollah in Lebanon, etc., may have as much to do with the anti-democrats' insecurity.
Millions of Iraqis went out and voted in clear defiance of Zarqawi & Co. True, many of them voted for Islamists, but many did not.
For however long, they have been indoctrinated by the various tyrants -- from secular military dictators like Saddam and Assad to the mullahs of Iran -- to believe their best interests are better determined by others. However,between the existence of Israel in their midst, which even by rotten old Qwadhari's estimate, puts the low productivity of Arab countries to shame, and exposure to the way the rest of the world thrives via satellite, or travel, they know that there is something better out there.
Interested:
thanks for passing along the sorry news about Bethnal Green & Bow. They say we get the government we deserve.
However,between the existence of Israel in their midst, which even by rotten old Qwadhari's estimate, puts the low productivity of Arab countries to shame, and exposure to the way the rest of the world thrives via satellite, or travel, they know that there is something better out there.
waterdragon? I believe you have hit 'a nail on the head' so to speak.
You see - for centuries upon centuries the 'Satanic' nations somehow received blessings.
How can that be?
Allah has promised them all of the blessings.
Seriously speaking - it has to be painful for them - especially after losing 4 wars to that tiny dot of land - Israel - wars they themselves provoked.
You know - it definately has something to say about allah.
Yes, Beth. It is amazing that they see Allah's divine assistance when they kill thousands of people by hijacking civilian airplanes and flying them into office towers, but they don't see Allah's hand in the demise of the Caliphate and the sorry, dysfunctional state of most Muslim countries today, except the tsunami, where the Muslims were being punished for permitting unIslamic conduct in their midsts.
The point I was also trying to make vis a vis the rallies is that I still remember the newsreels of Iranians out demonstrating their loyalty to the Shah up to the moment of his fall, and then their loyalty to the Ayatollah. These public demonstrations may have more to do with "peer pressure" or "secret police" pressure more likely, than a reflection of what they really aspire to.
These public demonstrations may have more to do with "peer pressure" or "secret police" pressure more likely, than a reflection of what they really aspire to.
Yes waterdragon - I agree. But what about the leaders? who have the power to put a stop to the craziness?
Just because I am addressing Islam with bold facts - does not mean I am addressing every single Muslim in the world.
I do believe a young person who is convinced into blowing themselves up for the good of another - along with the belief they are doing so 'To make God happy' are in a FAR BETTER position at the Judgment - than the leaders [who have a voice in this world]do - who have been told the Truth - but refuse to speak it - in order to put a stop to the bloodshed. At least they do with me - the young ones that is.
Please - with all humility on my behalf - try to keep that in mind.
It could be - that I have been in opposition to the leaders for a long time. They are the ones I hold responsible!
I hope many of them are visiting Jihad Watch - if for anything - just so they can see - that it is not we the people who are in the dark - but they - for even thinking such a thing!
I come from the heart. I really do.
Beth:
Be assured I have no doubt as to your sincerity or where you are coming from. My apologies if you thought I was questioning you.
My second comment was not for you in particular, but rather a postscript for all on this thread. I think that, in following events in the Middle East, we have to bear in mind that we are dealing with a very dysfunctional society and what the average man in the street may say or do may not necessarily reflect what they really believe or wish to do. And most of them also recognize the corruption of their leaders.
Simply put, they may scream "Death to America" at the behest of Saddam, the leader of Hezbollah or whomever, when in fact they wish the Americans would knock off whatever dictator they are languishing under and cannot overthrow under their own power.
As for the jihadist, they are certainly another matter.
Hugh,
Can you tell me the fiqh of oaths? I mean what does the Shariah say about oaths and treaties.
waterdragon52
Actually - I was telling some things about myself here - because I am new.
I thought it a perfect oppurtunity to slip it in.
Just know - that I agree much with things that you have spoken.
You and several others use a different approach than I do - but I believe each of us are needed - to make any difference - that is - if any can be made.
As you can see - I have hope! or I wouldn't bother.
Also - some of you here can be quite funny sometimes.
I think laughter can be very healthy....even if it is at my own expense. So long as it is funny - why not? Give it your best shot.
But know - that I know - that we all are in a VERY serious situation.
That is why I have come here - to offer anything I can - to at least slow down the madness that is called Islam.
Well, brownload, it's been 5 hours now. I don't think Hugh wants to take your pop quiz.