Some are still trying to kindle the flames of jihad over the Qur'an toilet non-incident. Has anyone noticed that this could be the first time that the Muslim world has actually believed a story that was first reported by a Western media outlet? From AP, with thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist:
"Although the magazine that published this piece of information has backed off it, we call on the American administration to investigate the incident, which we consider a major crime against more than 1.2 billion Muslims in the world," Jassem al-Kharafi, the parliament speaker in Kuwait — a top U.S. ally — said in the Al-Watan daily Wednesday.U.S. officials have said they found nothing to substantiate the Newsweek report that interrogators at the prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, flushed a copy of the Quran down the toilet to unnerve an inmate.
But given frequent reports of mistreatment at the camp from released detainees, some Muslims remained convinced the desecration happened.
"In Guantanamo they're throwing Muslims into the garbage. ... To flush their holy book down the toilet is the easy part," said Walid Kazziha, a political science professor at the American University in Cairo.
"It is easy for (the Americans) to humiliate the Quran, for them it is just a book," said Fatma el-Hefny, a student there.
In the Arab World, the street reaction to the Quran desecration was limited to a demonstration by several thousand university students in the Yemeni capital San'a on Saturday and another by several hundred activists from the Islamic militant group Hamas in the Gaza Strip a day earlier.
I definitely do not accept the Newsweek retraction.
Newsweek's source, who was a senior official privy to classified reports, originally stated that he had seen the desecration story in a prison abuse report that was about to be declassified. The prison abuse report came out and while there was other information, the Quran abuse story was not amongst them. Newsweek contacted the source who then told them that he had read it either in that report or in interrogation documents.
This was why the story was retracted, not because the story was untrue but because the source couldn't remember exactly where he had read it. It is beyond doubt that the story is true. Dozens of released Guantanamo prisoners have stated it to be true.
If you are going to claim like the US gov't that Al-Qaeda is taught to lie and hence all the released prisoners are lying, then you ought to question why the US gov't is releasing Al-Qaeda prisoners...
Shukri,
Please read the following level headed article posted on Arab News.
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=63995&d=19&m=5&y=2005&pix=opinion.jpg&category=Opinion
The author states:
"First, I believe no one can actually desecrate the Holy Qur’an. That’s how I felt when I heard the news; if a human being did try to do such a thing, he would be desecrating himself and whoever he represents. The Holy Qur’an is far above these earthly human acts."
If "human acts" of desecration occurred, is riot, mayhem and murder a justified response? Is human life worth less than one cheaply produced Qur'an?
READ MUSLIMS!
Why Islam is disrespected
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | May 19, 2005
IT WAS front-page news this week when Newsweek retracted a report claiming
that a US interrogator in Guantanamo had flushed a copy of the Koran down a
toilet. Everywhere it was noted that Newsweek's story had sparked widespread
Muslim rioting, in which at least 17 people were killed. But there was no
mention of deadly protests triggered in recent years by comparable acts of
desecration against other religions.
No one recalled, for example, that American Catholics lashed out in violent
rampages in 1989, after photographer Andres Serrano's ''Piss Christ" -- a
photograph of a crucifix submerged in urine -- was included in an exhibition
subsidized by the National Endowment for the Arts. Or that they rioted in
1992 when singer Sinead O'Connor, appearing on ''Saturday Night Live,"
ripped up a photograph of Pope John Paul II.
There was no reminder that Jewish communities erupted in lethal violence in
2000, after Arabs demolished Joseph's Tomb, torching the ancient shrine and
murdering a young rabbi who tried to save a Torah. And nobody noted that
Buddhists went on a killing spree in 2001 in response to the destruction of
two priceless, 1,500-year-old statues of Buddha by the Taliban government in
Afghanistan.
Of course, there was a good reason all these bloody protests went
unremembered in the coverage of the Newsweek affair: They never occurred.
Christians, Jews, and Buddhists don't lash out in homicidal rage when their
religion is insulted. They don't call for holy war and riot in the streets.
It would be unthinkable for a mainstream priest, rabbi, or lama to demand
that a blasphemer be slain. But when Reuters reported what Mohammad Hanif,
the imam of a Muslim seminary in Pakistan, said about the alleged
Koran-flushers -- ''They should be hung. They should be killed in public so
that no one can dare to insult Islam and its sacred symbols" -- was any
reader surprised?
The Muslim riots should have been met by outrage and condemnation. From
every part of the civilized world should have come denunciations of those
who would react to the supposed destruction of a book with brutal threats
and the slaughter of 17 innocent people. But the chorus of condemnation was
directed not at the killers and the fanatics who incited them, but at
Newsweek.
From the White House down, the magazine was slammed -- for running an item
it should have known might prove incendiary, for relying on a shaky source,
for its animus toward the military and the war. Over and over, Newsweek was
blamed for the riots' death toll. Conservative pundits in particular piled
on. ''Newsweek lied, people died" was the headline on Michelle Malkin's
popular website. At NationalReview.com, Paul Marshall of Freedom House
fumed: ''What planet do these [Newsweek] people live on? . . . Anybody with
a little knowledge could have told them it was likely that people would die
as a result of the article." All of Marshall's choler was reserved for
Newsweek; he had no criticism at all for the marauders in the Muslim street.
Then there was Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who announced at a
Senate hearing that she had a message for ''Muslims in America and
throughout the world." And what was that message? That decent people do not
resort to murder just because someone has offended their religious
sensibilities? That the primitive bloodlust raging in Afghanistan and
Pakistan was evidence of the Muslim world's dysfunctional political culture?
No: Her message was that ''disrespect for the Holy Koran is not now, nor has
it ever been, nor will it ever be, tolerated by the United States."
Granted, Rice spoke while the rioting was still taking place and her goal
was to reduce the anti-American fever. But what ''Muslims in America and
throughout the world" most need to hear is not pandering sweet-talk. What
they need is a blunt reminder that the real desecration of Islam is not what
some interrogator in Guantanamo might have done to the Koran. It is what
totalitarian Muslim zealots have been doing to innocent human beings in the
name of Islam. It is 9/11 and Beslan and Bali and Daniel Pearl and the USS
Cole. It is trains in Madrid and schoolbuses in Israel and an ''insurgency"
in Iraq that slaughters Muslims as they pray and vote and line up for work.
It is Hamas and Al Qaeda and sermons filled with infidel-hatred and
exhortations to ''martyrdom."
But what disgraces Islam above all is the vast majority of the planet's
Muslims saying nothing and doing nothing about the jihadist cancer eating
away at their religion. It is Free Muslims Against Terrorism, a
pro-democracy organization, calling on Muslims and Middle Easterners to
''converge on our nation's capital for a rally against terrorism" -- and
having only 50 people show up.
Yes, Islam is disrespected. That will only change when throngs of passionate
Muslims show up for rallies against terrorism, and when rabble-rousers
trying to gin up a riot over a defiled Koran can't get the time of day.
HAVE A NICE DAY MUSLIM!
"Dozens of released Guantanamo prisoners have stated it to be true."
Your right, the Brits unjustly held at Camp X-ray (Hell-Hole) that were released have stated this.
ia786,
I will repeat the question once again for you, ia786.
Is human life worth less than one cheaply produced Qur'an?
I do not have a problem with their retraction even if the incidence is true or not.
A religion should be bigger then it's symbols and icons. At what point the symbols and icons are held with more reverance then a God and human life you have idealogy and paganism.
Your point that this would be the first article believed from the west is ironic, but true.
MEMRI has pointed out many of articles and reports in the Middle East that would far surpass the National Enquirer for strangeness. The articles present what is appeared as "fact" with the "victimization" of islam or islamics. i.e. Jews consume the blood of islamic children, Western doctors bring in medicine only to cause everyone to be sterile, the list goes on.
A God cannot be hurt or harmed by disrespect or lack of understanding. Only humans would understand this fealing. So a question would be which is elevated higher, the God or the symbols and icons?
Muslims are so thin-skinned and hyper sensitive to insult. Yet, when the Church of the Nativity was occupied by Palestinian militants in a gun battle with the Israelis, what happened?
Did the Christian nations riot?
Islam = thin skinned aggressive angry self-righteous arrogant invader species.
SecureAspects, great article.
Shukri, ia786, my problem with Islam is not necessarily the core religion itself. I've read the Old Testament and there is some pretty violent stuff in it. But neither Christians nor Jews, as groups, today engage in the inhuman behavior we see from the Muslim world. Terrorism, honor killings, overall mistreatment of women, mainstream religious leaders calling for murder and mayhem... Do either of you really believe that pre-invasion Afganistan was a nice place to live? Or take Saudi Arabia, where Christians like me are arrested for the act of worship, are you asking me to accept or tolerate a religion that wants to impose that kind of tyranny on the entire world? Islam, in my opinion, seriously needs a Martin Luther to come along and drag it kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
Whether it is believed or not, the Holy Quran is the literal word of God.
Riots, mayhem and murder (interestingly enough, by US-trained Afghan security services) are completely unjustified.
The bottom line is: don't insult that which people hold dear. There is a Quranic command to this effect (this is why Flag burnings are actually prohibited by Shari'ah law. Those protestors burning flags are ignorant of Sacred Law).
what ai believes?? or does he???
Qur’an 4:94 “Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah’s Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: ‘You are not a believer!’ Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty.”
OH MY???
NOW WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS MEANS!!!
Qur’an 22:52 “Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before you, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some vanity into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in.” [Another translation reads:] “He recited (the message) Satan proposed. But Allah abolishes that which Satan proposes.” [A third claims:] “Satan made a suggestion respecting his desire; but Allah annuls that which Satan casts,” [A fourth:] “whose recitations Satan tampered with, yet Allah abrogates what Satan interpolates; and Allah will confirm His Signs/Revelations.”
NOW COULD THIS MEAN IN HIS VAINITY AND ALL WHO FOLLOW HIM WILL BE CURSED AND WILL HIS REVELATION BE THE DESTRUCTION OF MULSUMS BECAUSE HE DID FOLLOW SATAN FOR A WHILE??
Qur’an 53:19 “Have you then seen or thought upon Al-Lat and Al-Uzza (two idols of the pagan Arabs), and considered another, the third (goddess), Manat (of the pagan deities)? What! for you sons, the male sex, and for Him, daughters, the female? Are yours the males and His the females? Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair!”
SO HE DID WORSHIP IDOLS???
THAT WONT WORK!!
Bukhari:V2B21N245 “A person slept in and missed the morning prayer. So the Prophet said, ‘Satan urinated in his ears.’”
GOING TO BE A LOT OF PISSING GOING ON??
Bukhari:V4B54N509 “The Prophet said, ‘Yawning is from Satan and if anyone of you yawns, he should check his yawning as much as possible, for if anyone of you during the act of yawning should say: “Ha,” Satan will laugh at him.’”
WELL AMERICANS WILL BE IN REAL TROUBLE WE ALWAYS DO THAT WHEN BOARED AND THE MULSUM WORLD WITH NO SHORT SKIRTS BEER OR WINE???
Bukhari:V4B54N516 “The Prophet said, ‘If anyone rouses from sleep and performs ablution, he should wash his nose by putting water in it and then blow it out thrice because Satan has stayed in the upper part of his nose all the night.’”
NOW THAT WOULD BE A SHIGHT TO SEE SATAN UP THE NOSE USE WATER AND BLOW!!!
Bukhari:V4B54N522 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘When you hear the crowing of cocks seek blessings, their crowing indicates that they have seen an angel. When you hear the braying of donkeys, seek refuge, for their braying indicates that they have seen Satan.’”
NOW THAT NOT HOW I SEE IT?? JUST THOUGHT THE ROSTER WAS READY?? YEA HE IS CALLING HIS GIRLFRIEND!!
Qur’an 67:5 “Your gaze turns back dazed and tired. We have adorned the lowest skies with lamps, and We have made them missiles to drive away the devils and against the stone Satans, and for them We have prepared the doom of Hell and the penalty of torment in the most intense Blazing Fire.”
I'LL TAKE STAR WARS!!!
Qur’an 37:6 “We have decked the lower heaven with stars to protect them against all rebellious evil spirit, and provide security from every forward devil. So they cannot listen to the highest chiefs for they are pelted from every side, repulsed; they are under a perpetual torment, being driven off. Except such as they snatch away something by stealth, but then they are pursued by a flaming fire of piercing brightness.”
HMMM???
Bukhari:V4B54N506 “When a human being is born, Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers. That is why it cries.’”
NOW THAT AINT GOOD!!!
Qur’an 89:21 “Nay, when the earth is made to crumble the Lord comes, His angels rank upon rank, and Hell is brought face to face, man will remember, but how will that avail him? For His Chastisement will be such as no other can inflict. None punishes as He will punish! None can bind as He will bind.”
KILLER WAVE KILLES MORE THAN BOMB OVER JAPAN?????
AND WHAT ABOUT BAM 31,000
Qur’an 6:66 “The people reject this (Book) and call it a lie though it is the truth. Say: ‘I am not a warden over you.’ ...When you see men who meddle with Our Revelations, turn away, withdrawing from them. Satan makes you forget.”
NOW WHO WAS IT THE OTHER DAY KC OR INFEDEL HE MAY BE RIGHT??
Ishaq:548 “By Allah, the black mass has spread. Abu Bakr said, ‘There is not much honesty among people nowadays.’”
SO THE MONSTERS ARE ARE THE BLACK MASS WHICH IS SPREADING KILLING THE GOOD PEOPLE THE GOOD PEOPLE MUST STAND UP AND STOP THE BLACK MASS BEING SPREAD BY ubl[yellow coward who runs away] THAT WANT TO DESTROY THE MULSUM WORLD BY NOT GETTING ALONG WITH OTHERS??
Bukhari:V5B58N200 “I carried a water pot for the Prophet’s ablution and for cleaning his private parts. While following him with the pot, the Prophet turned and said, ‘Who are you?’ ‘I am Abu.’ The Prophet said, ‘Bring me stones in order to clean my private parts, but do not bring any bones or animal dung.’ So I brought some stones, carrying them in the corner of my robe till I put them by his side. When he finished, I walked with him and asked, ‘What can you tell me about the bones and the animal dung?’ He said, ‘They are of the food of Jinns [Devils]. A delegate of Jinns of the city of Nasibin came to me—and how nice those Jinns were—and asked me for the remains of human food. I invoked Allah for them that they would never pass by a bone or animal dung but find food on them.’”
NOW WASHING WITH STONES AINT A GOOD THING JSUT ASK THE HOOK MAN IN JAIL IN BRITIAN??
http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=NL712421F&news_headline=abu_hamza_covered_in_scabs
Since then, he has been charged in the UK with 16 offences including soliciting others to murder non-believers, racial hatred and possessing a document liable to help terrorists.
Hook-handed cleric Abu Hamza is covered from head to foot in scabs because he has an ailment that makes his skin bleed.
One theory is that he could have psioriasis, which results in flakes falling from crusty red patches on the skin.
OH MY???
Part o the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunetr
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO VICTORY[FREEDOM] TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN
Shukri,
Your qualified statement, "Riots, mayhem and murder (interestingly enough, by US-trained Afghan security services) are completely unjustified."[,] is then followed by...
"The bottom line is: don't insult that which people hold dear."
You seem to be answering NO and YES to a very simple question.
Insulting what a person holds dear in NO way justifies riot, mayhem and murder.
You may believe that, "the Holy Quran is the literal word of God," but there are four out of five living on this planet who do not.
That majority, if so inclined, has every right to critique and determine for themselves, without fear of violent retribution by the minority, whether the Qur'an is a worthy document.
WILL HE RUN AWAY OR ANSWER???
IA
YOU AINT BEEN KEEPING UP ON CURRENT EVENTS!!!
NOW YOU NEED TO KISS D.T.'S ASS ALTHOUGH I THINK YOU SHOULD PAY HIM MONEY!!!
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/006148.php#comments
May 12, 2005
"Rape Comment" Cleric Replaces Moderate Critic
From the Australian Courier Mail, "Controversial cleric replaces Muslim leader," with thanks to Dolphin.
An outspoken Sydney Muslim leader has been sacked and replaced by supporters of a radical cleric he criticised for claiming women incited rape.
Keysar Trad was on Saturday night deposed as president of the Lebanese Muslim Association after a falling-out with the spiritual leader of Australia's Muslims, sparking community fury following his criticism of Faiz Mohammed.
Supporters of Mr Trad, who until yesterday also acted as spokesman for Mufti Taj Din al-Hilali, claim that 11 of the 15 new LMA directors are strong supporters of Sheik Faiz, who caused widespread anger last month when he linked the way women dressed and behaved to their risk of rape.
Mr Trad said yesterday he had been threatened in the lead-up to the LMA elections by students and supporters of the firebrand cleric...
Posted by Rebecca at May 12, 2005 06:17 PM
JUST PROOF THE MULSUM LIES!!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH,WISDOM,SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM OPEN THE WORLDS EYES TO THEIR THREAT LET NOT THE WORLD BE DECEIVED BY THEM AMEN
Why in the hell are prisoners even allowed to have a koran? The imprisoned terrorist war criminals in Gitmo read this to become inspired to commit more crimes.Get rid of it. Remove all korans and if they want to read they read the Holy Bible. Period.
If things come together they will not have to wonder about what the world thinks of thier hate group.
A CAIR provided Quran in every pot.
Cross: I'm with you!
As for the other posters above: No need to feed the trolls!
Shuggi & 1a786 harping in unison, all the BS about being "moderate' etc: Forget it!
When it comes to the crunch, they are all diehard Jihadis, maybe they havn't killed anyone yet, but they are the cancer on our society and we shouldn't have them among us.There is nothing that Islam has that we want or need, nothing that Islamics can possibly do to make our world a better place.
This is what this is all about: Mohammedans out of all Western countries! Let the deportations begin...
The men who are leaving Gitmo are claiming torture, and deseration of the qur'an, so? They have learned their lessons well...
http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/manualpart1_4.pdf
Scroll all the way to the end of the file.
By continuing to defend their outbreaks of violence, Muslims are giving the world an ugly glimpse of true Islam. Of course, the same people who didn't "get it" on 9/11 won't "get it" now.
These "offended" Muslims are offended when the a prominent Western publication uncovers an alleged desecration, but they won't believe the same Western publicaton when the story is retracted. The ultimate spin on the news.
They are skeptical of a retraction. I am skeptical about their sense of decency. And more and more, I question the reality of "moderate Islam."
These people use whatever they want to try to excuse their murders.
The whole lot of them can go to hell for all I care.
Get out of the way and let Israel wipe them out.
"which we consider a major crime against more than 1.2 billion Muslims in the world"
How could that be? I thought Islam was a wonderfully varied, complex mosaic of cultures that you can't make monolithic generalizations about -- or so Muslim professors and their Leftist brown-nosers would have us believe.
Hanza
One theory is that he could be a snake which results in his skin falling off
If "The Wackiest Ship in the Army" was a religion, it would be Islam
Whether it is believed or not, the Holy Quran is the literal word of God. No one but Muslims are stupid enough to believe that the raving of a delusional manic are the word of god. The Koran is purely Muhammad's bullshit put on paper. And ya'll are a bunch of Muhammad worshipers since your highest duty is to emulate the life of your so called prophet. That's why you are rightly called Muhammadans, not Muslims.
Gitmo is not a boy scout camp and those guys in orange jumpsuits are not boy scouts. Many of them are some of the most dangerous individuals in the world. Well trained, exceptionally fanatic. They are first and formost Islamic jihadists . Their incarceration there, or their release does not change that. You cannot trust anything these people say. They will lie for any immediate or long range advantage. The fact that a number of them complain about treatment there, means little, their complaints are not credible.
Not one of those guys got into Gitmo because they have dandruff. Giving them anything besides basic living sustance, is giving them too much.
Swami:
I for one have no sympathy for treating this vermin the way they are treated in Gitmo. they are all past their use-by-date and should have been executed, together with the traitors and the scum that supports them. That would ensure that Mohammedans respect us, which they don't.
A prince Turki of Saudi Arabia is on record ranting about the "TRAVESTY" of 9/11. This fat slimeball said it twice in the same TV report, the first time I thought I didn't hear it correctly, then he repeated it "TRAVESTY OF 9/11"-
And Condi Rice makes apaologies! Something is very wrong here!
Sukri,
Couple of days back an Indian Christian was arrested in Saudi Arabia and his bible confiscated. Why did you not protest when your religious brothers do not let kafirs practice their religion in "your" land ( which Arabs conquered from your ancestors). Why do you not protest when Muslims treat kafirs as dhimmis and call them najis? Why do you not protest when your religious brothers destroy Buddhist statues in Bamiyan? Why do you not protest when your people slit people's throat saying Allah is greatest?
"…a particularly unpleasant incident involving a Catholic nun at the airport customs desk in jeddah.
"They opened her bag, went through her prayer book, put the prayer book through the shredder ... took the crucifix off her neck and smashed it, tormented her for many minutes."
Later, another (real) Muslim official came across and "rescued" her, pointing out to the customs officials that she was not entering the country but only in transit and would be leaving on the next plane." ...wonder what the real Muslim's punishment was for doing this???
"...more notorious,... including the trashing of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem in 2002; and the desecration of Maronite churches in Damour, Lebanon in 1976.
In the Damour episode, Yasser Arafat's PLO killed more than 500 of the Christian town's inhabitants before turning it into a stronghold, and used the interior of the St. Elias church for a shooting range, according to published accounts."
http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewPrint.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archive\200505\FOR20050519a.html
make sure to greet our soon-to-be "neighbors" with a Bible - upon arrival
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1026
"Washington sources report exclusively that the US and saudi leaders ended their talks with understandings that restored the saudis to a dominant role Washington’s Middle East policies.
…[A]greed ... post 9/11 restrictions would be lifted on the entry of saudi businessmen and students to the United States."
shukri -
Give your worry beads a breather. If the guys at Gitmo haven't defiled the quran, be assured that most Americans have. Both in our hearts, and in fact.
By the way, I intend to take a dump in a quran this weekend. Maybe, Sunday morning. Think of it as a 'constitutional'.
If I'm in the mood, I may take photos and send them to Newsweek. Post them on the web, etc.
Shuk-rid-X & ia666-
You should be heartened that the U.S. military and politicians are such f*cking idiots that they play right into your hands.
Instead:
The Gitmo prisoners should have been executed immediately after interrogators squeezed their usable info out of them.
Then:
No rumors coming out through the ICRC.
No Korans distributed.
No released prisoners.
No problem.
the analogy that is generally put forward equating the Bible and the Qu'ran as holding the equivalent roles within each religion is wrong! what corresponds in the Christian scheme to the Qu'ran is not the bible but the person of Christ!
what is the equivalent in the islamic scheme of things to the bible are the Hadith!
and for extras this puts Muhammads role in the scheme of christianity as one roughly equal to that of paul!
as they were both apostles and preached a message!
although Muhammad was made "perfect" in prosterity!
yet still all this shows the intolerance of islamic society towards others!
there is a definite need for Muslims to take up a critical stance on scholarship towards the Quran!
Muslims should take the time out to read john Wansbrough, Joseph Schacht or even Christoph Luxemberg!
to see how tendentious the history of the Quran and Sunna are themselves! and open to editing too!
if you know of a good refutation of Wansbrough please let us know as there has not been one scholarly refutation of his findings yet!(not that anyone understands him)
as Bernard Lewis would say historians in the West have a moral and professional obligation to look into the difficult and controversial subjects that are not open to those who are under forms of self censorship! such as muslims and the histirography of the Quran and Sunna.
and both Wansbrough and Schacht have done this without polemnics, apologetics, honestly, fairly and competently!
if what one finds doesnt fit with the traditional founding mythologies then you are welcome to ignore it and to crawl back into the cave of uncritical tradition and dont pass judgement on others.
the analogy that is generally put forward equating the Bible and the Qu'ran as holding the equivalent roles within each religion is wrong! what corresponds in the Christian scheme to the Qu'ran is not the bible but the person of Christ!
what is the equivalent in the islamic scheme of things to the bible are the Hadith!
and for extras this puts Muhammads role in the scheme of christianity as one roughly equal to that of paul!
as they were both apostles and preached a message!
although Muhammad was made "perfect" in prosterity!
yet still all this shows the intolerance of islamic society towards others!
there is a definite need for Muslims to take up a critical stance on scholarship towards the Quran!
Muslims should take the time out to read john Wansbrough, Joseph Schacht or even Christoph Luxemberg!
to see how tendentious the history of the Quran and Sunna are themselves! and open to editing too!
if you know of a good refutation of Wansbrough please let us know as there has not been one scholarly refutation of his findings yet!(not that anyone understands him)
as Bernard Lewis would say historians in the West have a moral and professional obligation to look into the difficult and controversial subjects that are not open to those who are under forms of self censorship! such as muslims and the histirography of the Quran and Sunna.
and both Wansbrough and Schacht have done this without polemnics, apologetics, honestly, fairly and competently!
if what one finds doesnt fit with the traditional founding mythologies then you are welcome to ignore it and to crawl back into the cave of uncritical tradition and dont pass judgement on others.
the analogy that is generally put forward equating the Bible and the Qu'ran as holding the equivalent roles within each religion is wrong! what corresponds in the Christian scheme to the Qu'ran is not the bible but the person of Christ!
what is the equivalent in the islamic scheme of things to the bible are the Hadith!
and for extras this puts Muhammads role in the scheme of christianity as one roughly equal to that of paul!
as they were both apostles and preached a message!
although Muhammad was made "perfect" in prosterity!
yet still all this shows the intolerance of islamic society towards others!
there is a definite need for Muslims to take up a critical stance on scholarship towards the Quran!
Muslims should take the time out to read john Wansbrough, Joseph Schacht or even Christoph Luxemberg!
to see how tendentious the history of the Quran and Sunna are themselves! and open to editing too!
if you know of a good refutation of Wansbrough please let us know as there has not been one scholarly refutation of his findings yet!(not that anyone understands him)
as Bernard Lewis would say historians in the West have a moral and professional obligation to look into the difficult and controversial subjects that are not open to those who are under forms of self censorship! such as muslims and the histirography of the Quran and Sunna.
and both Wansbrough and Schacht have done this without polemnics, apologetics, honestly, fairly and competently!
if what one finds doesnt fit with the traditional founding mythologies then you are welcome to ignore it and to crawl back into the cave of uncritical tradition and dont pass judgement on others.
the analogy that is generally put forward equating the Bible and the Qu'ran as holding the equivalent roles within each religion is wrong! what corresponds in the Christian scheme to the Qu'ran is not the bible but the person of Christ!
what is the equivalent in the islamic scheme of things to the bible are the Hadith!
and for extras this puts Muhammads role in the scheme of christianity as one roughly equal to that of paul!
as they were both apostles and preached a message!
although Muhammad was made "perfect" in prosterity!
yet still all this shows the intolerance of islamic society towards others!
there is a definite need for Muslims to take up a critical stance on scholarship towards the Quran!
Muslims should take the time out to read john Wansbrough, Joseph Schacht or even Christoph Luxemberg!
to see how tendentious the history of the Quran and Sunna are themselves! and open to editing too!
if you know of a good refutation of Wansbrough please let us know as there has not been one scholarly refutation of his findings yet!(not that anyone understands him)
as Bernard Lewis would say historians in the West have a moral and professional obligation to look into the difficult and controversial subjects that are not open to those who are under forms of self censorship! such as muslims and the histirography of the Quran and Sunna.
and both Wansbrough and Schacht have done this without polemnics, apologetics, honestly, fairly and competently!
if what one finds doesnt fit with the traditional founding mythologies then you are welcome to ignore it and to crawl back into the cave of uncritical tradition and dont pass judgement on others.
ooppssss!
CGW
My reply from an earlier thread
To be truthful it clips from here there and every where with a little from my pen and a little help from the old toad that lives at the back of my garden with his seven pink fairies
thanx for the positive response
I must admit I am not a writer,and sometimes I have problems
to write exactly how I feel, so sometimes I Will clip from other peoples essays to convey my message also I add bits and pieces of my own into what could be called Shiva,s Mix .Just like good DJs take and mix other peoples music.Myself I do not think it is wrong.If I find something which is good then I pass it on.Like a DJ i try to make a good mix so we can get down boogy
Also their are posters here who have studied Islam for many years.we take Thomas for example,who has studied in Cairo,how can I debate with him without going into a blind rage,he has years of studying in one of the foremost Universities of Islam,so to debate with him, I must use whatever resources I can find.
I spend a few hours every day searching the net for anything which concerns Islam.So I am learning quite a lot about many thing,not only Islam.when I find some thing that I feel is credible then I down load so as to use later.
I do not acknowledge where I clip from as many times I don't know what is more important is the message is be passed around.I am not being paid for what I do,so I am not doing anything immoral
Any lets get down and boogey all the way to Mecca
BTW Muslims Skeptical of Newsweek Retraction
YES the same I am skeptical that the upcoming rallies will be peaceful
Shukri said:
"The bottom line is: don't insult that which people hold dear."
More Islamic hypocrisy! After 1400 years of Muslims burning, ransacking, and generally defiling synagogues, Torah scrolls, churches and bibles, they now claim they respect the things other people hold dear. Laugh? I nearly split my sides.
How can anyone seriously expect us to believe Muslims hold such views, when there is overwhelming evidence that they don't? The only person Shruki is fooling is himself.
BuManChu--since your name mocks one of my fmaily's ethnicities, I respond. It's not some reform or "rewrite" that has rendered the scary parts of the OT a dead letter, but God unfolding more of His plan.
If you look at the commands to massacre the Canaanites and Philistines--the scary stuff in the Old Testament--they were bound to the time when Israel was inheriting the land of Canaan, which God promised to Abraham. Abraham himself could not inherit it because, as Gen. 15 tells us, the sins of the Amorites were not full. The Torah tells us as well that if the Israelites followed the example of the banned nations, they, too, would be removed from the land. Well, the Israelites followed the bad example, and hence the Babylonian Captivity--and event which, in the divine economy, was necessary in order for the covenant people to give birth to M'shiach later.
Muslims are skeptical of Newsweek retraction simply because they want to believe that the desecration(s) took place as they have been conditioned to believe this can be true because America is the Great Satan. This incident fits neatly into the plans of the extremists, Wahabbists and all the rest that are fomenting anti-American sympathies.
Newsweek in its stupidity has damaged our country as this "story" will reverberate and become part of anti-Western lore and will be used for decades, perhaps centuries, to come in the same manner as the memories of Crusades have been used: as tools of resentment to keep animus alive.
"Shuk-rid-X & ia666-
You should be heartened that the U.S. military and politicians are such f*cking idiots that they play right into your hands.
Instead:
The Gitmo prisoners should have been executed immediately after interrogators squeezed their usable info out of them.
Then:
No rumors coming out through the ICRC.
No Korans distributed.
No released prisoners.
No problem."
.................................................
"You should be heartened that the U.S. military and politicians are such f*cking idiots that they play right into your hands."
mmmmm....No, you are wrong the Governments of the 'West' are all democratically elected, they represent the people of the respective country.
"On 26 September 2001, President George W. Bush held a substantive meeting with American Muslim leaders, and said that "the teachings of Islam are the teachings of peace and good." During this meeting, Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, President of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), presented a copy of the Holy Qur'an to President Bush. During a brief press conference after the meeting, the President expressed his pleasure saying:
And I want to thank you very much for the-the gift you gave me, Imam, the Koran. It's a very thoughtful gift. I say, "Thank you very much for the gift." He said, "It's the best gift I could give you, Mr. President." I appreciate that very much.297
On September 17, 2001, President Bush visited the Washington Islam Center mosque, one of the oldest in the United States. In his speech, he emphasized that Islam is a religion of peace and that the terrorist attacks of 9/11 have nothing to do with the teachings of Islam or the sincere Muslims of the world, all of whom deplore terrorism. Bush stated that those who inflict harm on innocent and civilian Muslims are just as in the wrong as those who carry out terrorist attacks. At this crowded meeting, covered live by a large number of domestic and international television stations, President Bush read the following verse from the Qur'an
"In the long run, evil in the extreme will be the end of those who do evil. For that they rejected the signs of Allah and held them up to ridicule." (Qur'an, 30:10)"
Tony Blair said:
"If you read the Koran, it is so clear... the concept of love and fellowship as the guiding spirits of humanity," he says, in an interview due to be published in the Muslim News.
Mr Blair told the newspaper that he appreciates Islam as "a deeply reflective, peaceful, very beautiful religious faith".
Condoleeza Rice has apologised to America's Muslim friends Worldwide. I think that she is a very brave and strong women. I know that the people of the World are good, I know it is wrong to hate people that you don't know. That is why I love the West. I live in the UK and the people here have opened their hearts to me. I thank the people of the UK and I thank God, I love the people of the West and I love the people of the US.
Lord have mercy on us all.
we are waking up!!!!!!!!
Islamic countries have shown themselves incapable of modernization, certainly in its more benevolent forms and they are dependent upon the "Christian West" for science, technology, and medicine. Not only that, but to add insult to injury, the very dates used in international commerce are based upon a calendar derived from the birth of Jesus. Mohammed is ignored. Even worse, the West gives so little thought to the world of Islam that they know little about it, don’t take it seriously (or didn’t till recently), and have a series of denigrative stereotypes about it, which bite all the harder since the stereotypes are so obviously close to reality.
No Western country would dream of sending its graduate students to an Islamic country for specialized training in the sciences or medicine. The very suggestion brings a smile to the Western face, and it causes Muslims to grit their teeth, especially since they know that they must send their best graduate students West to learn anything useful.
There is no hope, but there is faith and everything is poured into it. Their faith explains their disastrous condition and offers the possibility of heaven if only one dies in battle with infidels
BigSleep,
Some may think your solution is radical. I don't! We're at war.
If the mere RUMOR of a "desecration" of the Koran is enough to set Muslims off, we can nip that problem in the bud by (1) not allowing the prisoners at Gitmo access to their inflammatory manual and (2) by implementing your plan. It's obvious to me that Muslims care less about human life than they do about some pieces of paper, which holds a twisted, talismanic meaning for them.
ia786,
If what you say is true, where is the outcry from the moderates?
WatchfulEye: I think IA has, at times, taken the troublemakers to task in his posts.
IA...do you think G Bush studys Quran? Do you think he has ever read it, any part of it, or
even thumbed through it? When he says Islam is a religion of peace, where do you think he gets that notion? G. Bush is a Christian...it is a blasphemy against Quran for him to even touch a Quran, unless he is converting. Bush is the highest priest of the Great Satan ( according to you guys), so why would you give him any credibility at all, more less quote him...strange way for a muslim to make a point...