And a lot more corrosive drivel besides. "MIM Exclusive:Neo Nazi William Baker Tells Crowd at Boca Marriott that 9-11 Hijackers Weren't Muslims," from Militant Islam Monitor, with thanks to Beila Rabinowitz:
BOCA RATON, FL (April 30, 2005) "Islam has come to America to call this country back to its roots," declared the controversial Bill Baker to a crowd of over 300 men, women and children Saturday night at the Boca Raton Marriott Hotel. Baker, a self-proclaimed Christian, travels throughout America and Canada making speeches to mostly Muslim organizations, often in conjunction with the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), and Muslim Students Associations on college campuses. The main point Baker said he wanted to make was that Christians and Muslims "have more in common than you think."The white haired, aging Baker appeared last on the lineup. He began by thanking his Shiite Muslim hosts and declared, "my heart is Shi'a" as he touched his chest. He cajoled and wooed the audience with an edgy sarcastic sense of humor while recounting a number of antidotal personal stories that would be difficult to verify. Despite Baker's stated objective of enlightening the audience, he did little to explain what the two religions have in common. He asked, "why haven't we heard more about the commonalities between Christians and Muslims?" Answering his own question he replied, "because it doesn't serve today's realities." He offered no explanation of these realities. He skirted the issue of his neo-Nazi ties through a casual acknowledgement that he had detractors, and he declared he would welcome working with "Jewish brothers and sisters who practice true Judaism."
Baker repeated the earlier Muslim guest speakers who emphatically stated that the men who destroyed the World Trade Center on 9-11 were not Muslims. Yet, in a sarcastic tone he condemned Christianity for the Crusades. Declaring a religious dissociation of people from their self-proclaimed religious affiliation is apparently only available to Muslims when they don't live up to their own moral standards. Baker missed the opportunity to argue that the Crusaders weren't really true Christians. Instead, he apologized to the audience on behalf of all Christians for the Crusades. Baker asserted that Islam was never spread by force and Muslim soldiers were never allowed to rape women. Had there been an opportunity for questions, one might have asked Mr. Baker to explain the well-documented ongoing brutal rape of thousands of Muslim and Christian Sudanese women, girls, and boys in Sudan by Muslim Sudanese army troops and Muslim junjaweed militia soldiers.
Collectively, Baker's portrayals of American Christians were negative and contemptuous. He praised Muslims for their dignified observance of Ramadan and fasting without complaint, while characterizing fasting Christians as "going around with a long face," complaining, and looking for special recognition of their sacrifice. He recounted a story of where he challenged a Christian man's contempt of Libyan Dictator, Col. Muammar al-Qadhafi, by saying to him, "have you ever met him?" Baker claims to have met with Col. Qadhafi and liked him. Human rights organizations have document numerous gross human rights violations against Libyan citizens by Qadhafi and his regime. Baker also claims to have illegally traveled into Kashmir and risked his life to meet Muslim Kashmiris; to have had a longstanding friendship with the now deceased Sheikh Ahmad Keftaro, who was the Grand Mufti of the Republic of Syria and Head of the Supreme Council of Fatwa; and to have traveled numerous times to Saudi Arabia where he was allowed to freely practice Christianity despite Saudi law prohibiting such displays outside designated compounds in the Kingdom.
Read it all. That an American Muslim group would feature as noxious and mendacious a speaker as Bill Baker is extremely telling.
I know I already posted this somewhere else, but I want everyone to see this quote and use it as they see fit. Behold:
"Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers –already, you see, the world had already fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing Christianity! –then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so."
(Adolf Hitler, August 28, 1942, midday)
p.667 "Hitler’s Table Talk; 1941-1944" translated by N. Cameron and R.H. Stevens, Enigma Books (1953)
"True" Jews?
So, not like those pesky ones that exist now, right?
It's demonization without exactly demonization.
Geoff
Just another example of how hate blinds and dumbfounds the hater.
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. Qur'an 5.051
Allah doesn’t take kindly to his cohorts befriending Jews or Christians, so why suggest it, doesn’t anyone of these boneheads read the Qur’an?
Allah takes much pleasure in the ad nauseam actions of his cohorts, so much so that he accepts their actions as his own. Mr Bakers statement does a great disservice to Allah and Moslems everywhere, Maybe he is somewhat correct though, it wasn’t Moslems who knocked down the Twin Towers, it was “Allah”.
It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things). Qur’an 8.017
“Gracious trial” plainly states that killing is a godly act in Mohammadanism, the religion of terrorism. You didn’t cut his head off, it was allah!
Does he mean the similarities like these.
So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.We love because he first loved us.
If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 1 John 4:16-20
Christianity and Mohammadanism are about as similar as a dog and a Boeing 747, they both have tails!
He is claiming to be "Christian" only to make money on the CAIR speech circuit.
He is no Christian. Anyone can pick up a title and run with it. Maybe next time I am in a garage I will call myself a "car".
There will be many more people in the future that will do this. They will muslim and they will plant themselves in religions and churches only to sway public perception. And you can bet your briches that preachers and priests will do the same. I believe there may be many in place now.
I would love to see this guys tax returns and see who pays all of his income. I know CAIR. They can buy a voice.
Everything that I read on the net on this guys shows how fake and ignorant he is.
Similarities between Christians and Islam:
1. This guy speaks abouts Christians in a negative light and all is ok.
2. If this same guy spoke for Jihad Watch and spoke in a negative light about islam he would have death threats and have to hire security.
Can we say what similarities?
I have NO doubt they would also try to link to the likes of This:
http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz200505020944.asp
And now more than ever, I have to wonder if giaour was a Plant for that very thing.
Quick! Get Osama on the line...there has been a huge misunderstanding! Mohammed Atta had nothing to do with 9/11!!!
The white haired, aging Baker was not born when the words of the Koran were given.
Those words - call Baker a liar. And without those words - there can be no Islam.
The same is True of the New Covenant.
Those words were given LONG before Baker was even born - and will still be with us after he is gone.
They also - call Baker a liar.
Muslims are commanded to kill him - for inciting the crowd to befriend Jews and Christians.
The Christians are commanded to pray for him - for if he stays with the lies he is preaching - his grave won't appear when the Lord comes to call.
Luk 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are
''''as graves which appear not''''
and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.
And that is sad.
Am I the only one appalled at the Boca Marriott for letting this scum in the door? The employee booking events couldn't have done a few seconds Google search to verify just who is using their facility?
I looked on Marriott's corporate site but can't find a contact. I think emails voicing disgust are in order to corporate headquarters.
Marriott needs to apologize for this contemptible insult to the community.
If I am correct in recalling that the Marriott chain was founded by Jews, if not still currently under the same ownership, it's rather an ironic choice of location.
no,...I believe that Mr. Marriot is a Mormon
Eve_anne_gelical:
I see from searching on the founder's name that you are quite correct. J. Willard was a Mormon from Utah.
I was doubtful when I was told otherwise.
Right,they weren't Muslims and that's why Muslims in America were so upset and outraged about the FBI not treating the remains of the hijackers according to Islamic law in the Quran.
This same Taqiyya ruse is practiced in the Middle East,suicide bombers are denounced as
being a "True" Muslim and yet the leftover body parts are expected to be given a burial according to Islamic laws for the dead.
So which one is it,are they Muslims or are
Muslims suddenly caring about the funerals of
Infidels being in line with Gods rules for
the dead.
Any thoughts Hooper?
I was reading a site about the "black pope" and shriners being behind all the evil in the world. I don't know where all these weird ideas get started, but it reminds me of the scripture; you strain at the gnat, and swallow the camel.
How appropriate that this islamic taquyyia love fest took place in "Boca Raton" a/k/a Mouth of the Rat.
Like other examples of anti-Islamic writings, there are no actual quotes. Instead we are rely on the credibility of a Militant Islam Monitor investigative "journalist" in order to judge Islam and Muslims. I think I'll pass...
Shukri~ Baker agrees with your contentions that the perpetrators of 9/11 were not muslims- and you don't believe it?
Have you checked your meds?
Bar:
"Christianity and Mohammadanism are about as similar as a dog and a Boeing 747, they both have tails!"
LOL!
Featuring a Neo-Nazi at a high profile Islamic event...hmm, doesn't this damage Islam's cause???
Shukri,
Your Muslim brothers video taped the entire event so if you think you can get them to part with a copy you can verify everything that was stated in my report.. Emily Emerson
The apparent theocratic loophole (being used by the neo-Nazi here) that the "hijackers of 9/11 weren't Muslim" is based on a saying of Mohammad which claims that "when anyone is doing anything against the teachings of the Koran they are, at that moment, no longer Muslims". (I.E.-they are in a state of 'sin' and 'disobedience', which temporarily makes them a 'non-Muslim', until repentence restores the person to the proper condition of 'Muslimhood'. A clever legalistic subterfuge for exonerating any 'Muslim' from ever being accused of any crime, ever. Paradoxically devious, to put it mildly.)
But this claim ignores the fact that WHAT the 9/11 hijackers were doing BY COMMITTING MASS-MURDER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE is a fulfillment the Koranic call to spread Islam by the sword, and to wage a mercilesswar against infidels.
So, by the standard interpretation of Islamic dogma, these "muh-jihad-een" of 9/11 were being perfect Muslim warriors. Using cunning to propel the global conquest of the faith of Allah- "by any means necessary" (to quote another, later Muslim).
Allah uber alles!
Ms. Emerson, my beef is with the fact that, in your article, we are being told what the speaker said i.e: an interpretation of the speakers words are being given.
Now, since the title of your article was on Muslims claiming that 9/11 was perpetrated by other than Muslims, why didn't your article cite the actual quotes of the speakers to illustrate this point, instead of mentioning in a single one-liner, that "Baker repeated the earlier Muslim guest speakers who emphatically stated that the men who destroyed the World Trade Center on 9-11 were not Muslims"?
Is it not possible that the speakers meant it in a figurative way? I.e: "It is not possible for someone who is following Islam to perpetrate such a crime."
Also, for the record, I do not know who the Assadiq group is. I had never even heard of them until the article was posted.
An excellent article, Robert. However, I wish people would note that Baker's "Christianity", which denies the divinity of Jesus Christ, is theologically "moderate"--a polite term for downright heretical.
I suspect his denial of the divinity of Christ is one reason--other than his hatred of the JOOOOOOZ--why he gets invited to Muslim events.
An excellent article, Robert. However, I wish people would note that Baker's "Christianity", which denies the divinity of Jesus Christ, is theologically "moderate"--a polite term for downright heretical.
I suspect his denial of the divinity of Christ is one reason--other than his hatred of the JOOOOOOZ--why he gets invited to Muslim events.
Shukri,
I appreciate your willingness to continue to dialog on this... I hear what you are saying. My focus was on Mr. Baker and what he said. I suppose I could have written it with a quote, Baker said, "they [hijackers] were not Muslims."
Part of what we are having an issue over I think is the purpose of headlines. They are meant to grab the attention of the reader so that they will want to read the article. They are not necessarily the major focus of the article.
I think a much bigger issue that emerged is the refusal of the event leadership to allow press coverage in the event. It is truly unfortunate that this organization after advertising to the public that the event would be open to anyone chose to exclude the mainstream press and refused to allow the press access to William Baker.
The press in Boca doesn't conduct themselves like the tabloid reporters and the paparazzi, they are respectful. I just don't understand it. The press could easily have been seated in the back of the room in a designated space. There was plenty of space. Even if they limited TV cameras, they could have easily accommodated the print media so that the reading public could read other accounts of what was said.
I was really surprised to hear the other speakers, including the Imam tell the audience that the 9-11 hijackers weren't Muslims. Perhaps it is like a blogger above described..that is has to do with concepts that are completely foreign to non-Muslims...perhaps you can shed some light on that if you are Muslim.
I find this fascinating really... In the Christian tradition, (I can only personally speak to that as I am Christian) those who claim to be Christian and commit what one would describe as un-Christian acts..would typically be described as "sinning", that meaning: going against the teachings and moral values set establish through the life of Jesus Christ and the theological authorities of the Christian Churches. In the Christian tradition, we don't say, "they are not Christians." We say, "they are sinning" or "have sinned" or "are living in sin" or "committed a heinous sin" any number of other descriptions.
We may say, they are not living a Christian life..if it refers to how they conduct their daily affairs. In either case, the response of other Christians and the Church authorities would typically be to confront them... and encourage them to repent, etc.. (which is another whole long discussion)
If someone goes around claiming to be a Chrisitan, but putting out an ideology that is so contrary to the basic accepted Christian theology of the major demoninations of Christianity (Catholic or Protestant), Christians both the clergy and non-clergy will classify that individual as a heretic.
So when, for example, I hear the Imam and other persons who are extolled as leaders in the Muslim faith, or persons like Baker who say they are Christians say the 9-11 hijackers were not Muslim.. it just doesn't make sense to me.. from the cultural and religious context of my reality...
I am really quite interested in exploring this conceptual divide... anything you can share that will help in my and others understanding is appreciated...
As for the Assadiq Islamic Educational Foundation, it is a new organization in Boca Raton, although it is my understanding that the Boca Imam's father has such an organization in California. The Boca organizations link is:
http://islamfl.com/foundation/foundation_main.htm
I'm flabbergasted that somehow Shurki thinks he's a voice of any reason; he seems devoid, rather. He agrees with Baker that 9/11 was not the work of muslims, and he has no problem with Baker - a man who was kicked out of his church for his extremity, and who has known Nazi associations - being a speaker at a muslim rally.
This is the tolerant face of islam? Extremists with ties to worse extremists presenting at muslim meetings?
Well actually, I suppose it is.
Geoff
Gary: kj and I know how much you hate and fear secularists.
Bear in my mind while you are full of loathing that Ali Sina and Ibn Warrag are also secularists.
In fact, if I recall correctly they are atheists.
Also bear in mind that in the battle for god, there are no winners.
And the Christian Right, of which Mr. Kurtz is part, as apparently are you, are alienating half of the population of the US. The half needed to win the war that Islamists have declared on the west.
Infants need to vent, bang their heels and act up, but infants don't win wars, and a house divided against itself cannot win.
giaour~ like the liar you are, you keep using the word 'fear.'
I don't fear tiny minds like yours. Or secularism.
I DO fear what tiny minds like yours will do with secularism, should your type be the one who get in power with it.
As I have said before, it is not the goals, but How the goals are achieved.
When you speak down to Christians, call their beliefs a neurological disorder, laugh at them, I see the Ovens at Dachau.
Not the kind of person I would want running a secular state.
Ms. Emerson, first of all thank you for your very polite and reasonable reply.
This is also so in the Islamic tradition. Unless one contradicts Islamic Creed, anything that one does that is in violation of Islamic Law, is considered to be a disobedient Muslim ("Fasiq" in Arabic aka Sinner)
I think I understand what you are saying. From my view, the Imam was probably saying that the actions of the hijackers were unIslamic. Perhaps he said the "hijackers were not Muslim" but no one can really make that literal claim because as mentioned above, one does not become non-Muslim merely by sinning.
So my conclusion is either that the Imam is ignorant of Islamic Sacred Law or that he meant that the actions of the hijackers were unIslamic i.e the actions were the actions of people who could not be Muslims. Considering that the Shi'a generally do a good job of training their Imams, I incline towards the latter view.
Anyway, please do listen to the audio in the link. It gives a very good overview of the beliefs of the vast majority of the Muslims in the world.
Geoff, please do not misquote me since I absolutely believe that 9/11 was not the act of any Muslims who were following Islamic Sacred Law.
Gary you need an elementary lesson or two in logic and language.
You called me a liar (which is slander).
A liar is someone who tells a lie.
A lie is an intentionally false statement.
So where exactly did I intentionally make a false statement?
And Gary when you start telling others that they have small minds, are you sure that you aren't projecting?
You don't know my mind, you have no idea of the depth and breadth of my knowledge, nor none of my background.
Now you are imitating the Muslims by playing righteous victim, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it you who speak down to secularists, demonize them call them names. Is religion a neurological disorder? I think so. If I had said Islam is a neurological disorder you would have cheered and quoted me.
Gary:
Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins explains why God is a delusion, religion is a virus, and America has slipped back into the Dark Ages.
BTW, Gary it is your America not mine. I'm at the end of my life rope and it is fast slipping away.
Islam has never left the Dark Ages, what a shame to see America slip back into it.
Shukri,
Thank you for the links and the explanation.
Best Regards,
Emily Emerson
Wow. Now looks who's screaming and kicking (note: it was never me).
The author of the article I posted calls himself secular. If he has a problem with the Delusion you are pushing, giaour, then you should take it up with him.
The U.S. will continue to progress in freedom at all levels, with Religous Freedom for All. No dark ages here. That's coming in Eurabia, quite rapidly, with moral and cultural relativism for all- and intolerance for Christians who dare to speak up.
And could you slip away a little faster?
Sorry, Mr. Spencer. That's my last snipe.
What is Taqiyyah, I hear many of you Kufar use this term with no dalil (evidence) from the Quran or Sunnah.
Bar, When you qoute the Quran about Allah (swt) says he does or doesnt do quote them all because the Quran isnt limited to a few choices ayats. We are to obey it all unless otherwise abrogated. If you God is so loving skip to the last chapter of his book Revelation and she how he tosses the Ghandi and the Dali Lama in hell for not believing is a crazy triune God.
I wish you Christians would stop shuffling your anti-semitic guilt onto the Muslims.
My formal apology on behalf of Islam for destroying the Judeo-Christian Utopia that existed before Islam. As if you need our help to be Nazi Jew haters. Wasnt your protestant prophet Luther a Nazi?
Brownfinger, tell your hired cronies ("Number 2", for example) to shut off your 'death-ray' of logical insight. It seems to be firing back at you.
How exactly is it that the recognition of historical (and even not-so-historical) anti-Semitism by Christians relates in any way to the modern, ongoing, "hip-cat" flavour of Jew-hatred exhibited above in Boca Raton? I can realize that in your imaginary world, such devilish Jewish intrigue is a, ahem, "fact", but it seems unlikely you can blame this one on the Christians. I realize that leaves you almost argumentless. Just throw in one of the usual conspiracy theories and you can leave it at that.
BTW, it is perfectly reasonable for Protestants to embrace Lutheran IDEAS without embracing all of them, let alone Luther himself. He had valid points: there was corruption in the Catholic church. Protestantry (oooh I made a word!) is based on the rejection of that corruption. Luther was notable and commendable for standing out against it, but his views on Jews were appalling. We find - those of open Western minds and philosophies - that we are able to occassionally draw useful ideas even from those that we disagree with; specifically that we don't need to embrace people AND every single one of their thoughts simultaneously, with a few exceptions.
Something no muslim (again, with a few exceptions) seems ever have been able to do with respect to Mohammed, despite his being a paedophile and a bit of a maniacal murderer.
Live with it.
Geoff
BTW: "You Kufar"...nice comment. How revealing. Incidentally, isn't "kuffir" derived from the racist Arabic term for "black"? You need not answer, really...it is.
Prophet Muhammed (saw) never said anything about Jews that isnt grounded even in biblical history. Muslims are to say and not say what Prophet Muhammed (saw) and his Companions (ra) said and didnt say. We are not to exceed. Because every deviation is misguidance and every misguidance is in the hell fire.
We dont need false idealogies of communism, capitalism, nazism, or any other ism to influence our opinions about Jews or any other people.
Please, when you talk about knowledge of Islam or the Arabic language, at the very leat Muslims are to speak with knowlede or remain silent so in regards to the word kufar and its roots please speak with knowledge because I am not obligated to follow opinions nor do opinions make precedence in Islam. Its the Quran and the Sunnah and the understanding of the Pious predecesors that make precedence in Islam.
Islam is free of pedophilia and murder. And if they are not the burden of proof is on you.
Well, most scholars agree that Mohammed married a girl, Ayesha, at six years of age and had sex with her at nine.
That's paedophilia. To say nothing of having that Jewish poetess murdered.
Geoff