How do they recruit these converts? What use do they make of the Qur'an in doing so? How are those who proclaim themselves to be moderate Muslims combating this recruitment? These are all forbidden subjects. From the Pakistan Daily Times, with thanks to Nicolei:
MONTREAL: Canadian converts to Islam have become a major source of Al Qaeda combatants, posing a risk to the country's security, according to an intelligence report cited by the Toronto Star newspaper. "Converts are highly prized by terrorist groups for their familiarity with the West and relative ease at moving through Western society," the newspaper wrote on Saturday, quoting an internal Canadian Security Intelligence Service report. "There is a direct threat to Canada and Canadian interests from Al Qaeda and related groups," said the document, adding that converts "are prone to extreme views because of their new-found zeal." The report said Islamists are also spurred by "the perception that the West is attacking Islam on multiple fronts." The perception "continues to anger the Muslim world and contributes to support for radical views."
The Canadians are fearful of the rising number of converts to Islam? I'm shocked. Ottawa has long seemed in a race to convert of Canada into a non-western society... Mass immigration from muslim nations has been uncritically accepted as part of national policy. What more could the national governement have done to create a growing Islamic cancer? One can hardly criticise policies of multi-culturalism and diversity in Canada without being called a "racist" or "nazi". I wonder how Canadians will respond to the widening influence of Islam given the wide-spread state indoctrination against debate of "diversity" issues?
There is a direct threat to Canada and Canadian interests from Al Qaeda and related groups
I would think the direct threat is more to the US, versus Canada. If these converts (I'm assuming they are non-Middle Eastern looking) can move around so freely, then they can move across the border pretty freely too. Afterall, why would you poop in your own nest? Canada is a perfect launching pad for attacks on the US. I'm sure there are many key players in place in Canada already. I've read articles that have said Montreal is a hotbed of Islamic terrorists. They can send their little converted Mohbots across the border to do their dirty work, while sitting safely in Canada.
Info tech, you stated "I wonder how Canadians will respond to the widening influence of Islam given the wide-spread state indoctrination against debate of "diversity" issues?", well as a Canadian I can tell you that a lot don't respond at all. They see this as either an issue for the Americans or just are ignorant of the whole situation.
Our PC politicions tell us that there are no terrorists here in Canada and the Government reps go over seas on trips and meet with organizations that are known fronts for terrorists or are terrorists themselves. For example the PM went to Sri Lanka to look at the damage and aid after the Tsunami there and met with people and groups that are known to be linked to the Tamil Tigers. Our government has not even designated them as a terrorist group and they have free reign here in Canada.
I have talked to a number of people here and most have no idea of any of the terrorist related incidents here in Canada other than the Air India bombing 20 yrs ago.
A lot of people just sit back and ignore the issues, listen to the politicos, read the PC media reports and don't ask questions.
I am afraid that one day they are going to get a large rude awakening and then wonder why no one said anything to them.
Sites like this are great but I wish more people would know about it and wish that the media and politicians would just come clean and say what is going on and stop being so politacally correct in what they say.
I'm not going to say this isn't happening because I have no first hand knowledge but take a valium and relax for a minute. Ever heard of John Walker Lindh, Richard Reid, Yusaf Islam (former Cat Stevens). None of the above are Canadian nor have any connection to Canada. Yes it can and likely does happen here but it does elsewhere too - and possibly on a greater scale.
I totally agree however that the government (mostly the Liberal government) has had its head in the sand (or more likely, up its arse) regarding terrorism in Canada. First Knight has mentioned two egregious cases - the Sikh sponsored Air India bombing and the present government's willful ignorance of Tamil Tiger supporters and fundraisers in Canada.
I'm afraid Daniel Pipes will be proven correct - it will be education through murder.
Many Canadians, particularly those in the east, have smuggly condemned the US for it's stand on terror. When it comes home to their own backyards, reality will set in. Canadians should take a lesson from the Netherlands.
Here is the Toronto Star article on the CSIS report. If you want to learn more about the threat of Islamic terrorists in Canada, see my new book Royal Canadian Jihad.
Patrick:
The link doesn't work.
Im ready to split the damn country in 2 right at the manitoba ontario border. Trust me people in the west don't put up with this shit, its ontario and its rediculous liberal fetish.
You are right feralee, most converts to islam are of white ethnicity. No one who had to live as a non-muslim (dhimmi) in a muslim country or society is stupid enough to convert to such filthy cult. I am sorry to say this, but westerners (whites) appear to have lost both their minds and identity. They have focused so much on accumulating material wealth that they have forgotten their own selves. At the same time, the liberal media keeps branding anything remotely christian as the source of the ills of modern society. The void souls then turn to those so called "exotic" religions for answers. This is really sad, the West is literally digging its own grave. To those new converts to islam, remember my words, your new religion will eventually devour you and your children, you have sold your souls to the devil, and for what?
The Jihadists and their white converts will use Canada as a base to attack the United States. I can see no reason on earth for them terrorizing Canada such as a Toronto subway bombing. Madrid Spain trains were bombed to split Spain away from the US. Afterwards Spain voted out it pro America government and removed it's troops from Iraq.
Canada is already split from the United States.
Dennis...Canada will be obligated to stop attacks on the US from Canadian territory...when they do that, Canada will itself come under attack...and thats "if" muslims dont try and take over Canada first...
Dennis you state that you see no reason for them to attack us here in Canada. In case you didn't know it but OBL listed Canada as one of the 5 main countries for attack along with the US Britan and Australia. I am just waiting for him to carry out that promise as he does seem to keep his promises even if in his own time frame.
Yes the next terrorist to hit the US may come out of Canada but even all our intelligence agencies and think tanks say that we here in Canada will be hit for sure at some point.
Muslims have continues to plan attacks in Spain. The
Spanish people tossing out their pro-US government has made them more vulnerable not less vunerable to terrorist attacks.Since Muslims attack those that they perceive as weak. Americans, Australians and the Brits all returned their leaders to power despite threats from Islamofascists. Appeasing Islam will only lead to Canada being turned in to a sewer just as happens in any country were Islam is allowed to excert power.
Ahmed Younis on FNC telling us that the President should grovel before 7th century barbarians and beg for forgiveness over the flushing incident. Host reminded him of the PA cleric saying islam will rule the US, "but, but, but"...always demanding more dhimmitude.
From the same article:
""What will radicalize the young people here in Canada is watching CNN or watching FOX News every night and seeing what's going on around the world and being simply frustrated, horrified or disgusted,""
Either way, this article is way one-sided. The ratio of Muslim converts who consider terrorist tactics to be acceptable to those who do not is 1:[several hundred thousand]. Hardly fair to automatically list them all as terrorists...
Hey didn't Canada let off those guys who bombed Air India?
The white converts are/were ppl like me. I was going to turn into a fundy and kill all the Jews in the world, for their dirty trick of corrupting scripture. Part of that punishment was already carried out, by being turned into apes and monkeys. It's real sad.
Anyway, I can assure you, if the media and unis keep up what they are doing now, no one will have a brain by the end of the decade (that's 5 years). Remember, I was told by an acadhimmi that Islam was the only true religion out there, and we should all convert to see how those "poor muslims" feel about western imperialism.
Being here in Alaska has been very interesting since 9/11.
A little detail: Alaska is the largest state in the Union, 2 1/1 times larger than Texas. Alaska has more coast line then the WHOLE continental United States (that is east and west coast).
Now try and protect that!
The military/and Coast Guard here in Alaska have been kept busy by large asian i.e malaysia, indonisia, fishing boats coming into Alaska waters. Meeting up with seaplanes, other boats and then running. This winter a large Malaysian ship ran ashore (this was in the media) and broke up and shank. It was not suppose to be there.
A Coast Guard helicopter picked up several survivors from the ship but then went down. The Coast Guard crew survived, but it was rumored that the rescued try to take the copter down. It was also rumored that there were several FBI and terrorist task force groups that went out and examined the ship before it sunk, because there were interesting findings. Who knows what they were.
Local law enforcement and FBI has stated because of the vast size of Alaska they are seeing alot of islamic's with terror ties passing through and going into Canada. From there who knows where.
A recent conversation with people in the "know" have stated there have been several terror arrests, followed by media releases. But the media will not run with the reports.
The response that was most impressive from a person in the "know" was "they are here, they are passing through, there are alot of them, and mostly we are to keep a eye on them and let the majority of them pass on".
Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy, don't it!!!???
Murki:
You are a fine one to talk one-sidedness, having dredged up Brainless Whitehacker's hatchet job on MEMRI. Just for you, Yigal Alon's response:
Media organisation rebuts accusations of selective journalism
A Guardian Unlimited article recently questioned the neutrality of a US-based institute that translates articles from Arabic newspapers. Here, the institute's president responds
Yigal Carmon
Wednesday August 21, 2002
Brian Whitaker's Selective Memri is an example of selective journalism.
Disregarding the Guardian's own code - "A newspaper's primary office is the gathering of news" - Whitaker has simply recycled inaccurate and previously published material.
Two days before his piece appeared on the web, he called our Washington office to ask for the Arabic original of an article translated by Memri from the London daily Al-Hayat. He could have used this opportunity to check his facts. He chose not to do so.
To start with, Memri is not a "mysterious organisation". Our telephone number, fax and email appear on every dispatch. True, the office address is no longer posted on our website. Whitaker may scoff, but we have received threats from rightwing radicals in America.
Had he asked, we would have provided him with our addresses in Washington, London, Berlin, Moscow and Jerusalem (as well as informing him that I retired from government office almost a decade ago).
We could also have told Whitaker that we have over 30 employees of different nationalities, rather than six. But then, facts might have got in the way of a "good story".
Memri is involved in a variety of projects, apart from translating material into most European languages and Turkish: an economic project, headed by a former World Bank expert, an Arab anti-semitism documentation project, studies of school books from Arab educational systems, monitoring Friday sermons in the Arab world.
Most important and innovative is our reform project, which highlights liberal voices, not only from western capitals, but also from within the Arab and Muslim world, courageously calling for political, religious, social and economic reform, and taking all the risks involved.
Is this "Selective Memri"? No, it's Selective Whitaker. He cites the Memri-translated "Blood Libel" - an article that resurrected an ancient myth that accuses Jews of using the blood of (non-Jewish) children to make a special pastry for the Purim religious festival - published by the Saudi al-Riyadh daily.
This is a paper which, contrary to Whitaker's statement, is identified as government-controlled by the Saudi government's website, by the BBC and by news agencies such as Associated Press.
It is true that the editor later apologised and the columnist was sacked. Memri reported all this, giving the paper credit even though these events came in the wake of severe US criticism.
Whitaker implies that this was a marginal case - another article deliberately "selected" by Memri that merely reflects the "ignorance of many Arabs - even those [as] highly educated" as the author of the piece - a university teacher.
Does Brian Whitaker still think it mere ignorance when the major Egyptian government daily Al-Ahram follows a similar line? The government-appointed editor-in-chief is currently facing prosecution in France (and possible prosecution in the UK) for incitement to anti-semitism and racial violence.
The editor is prepared to do battle over his right to spread this poison and he is supported by most of Egypt's literary elite, parliamentarians, trades unions and various organisations throughout the Arab world.
Surely the Guardian's editorial board would agree that this goes far beyond ignorance. It is the deliberate dissemination of a Blood Libel.
Another supposedly marginal issue "selected" by Memri is the Ode to Terrorism by the Saudi Ambassador to the UK, Ghazi Al-Qusaybi. Were Whitaker a regular reader of the Arab papers published in London, he would know that it is not a matter of poetry.
Al-Qusaybi has authored several articles expressing the same political position (Memri Dispatches 251, 256, 389 at www.memri.org). Indeed, does Whitaker read the Arab press at all? Or does he rely on Arab Media Watch?
If this is the case, we could provide him with some documentation on their bias. In any event, I wouldn't blame him for seeking assistance. Monitoring the Arab media is far too much for one person to handle. We have a team of 20 translators doing it, and we can't possibly cover it all.
Whitaker's view of Memri's work is not shared by others. In fact most of the well-known media in the US respect and frequently quote Memri, for example the New York Times, Washington Post, New Republic, The New Yorker, Los Angeles Times, Boston Globe and Miami Herald.
The Guardian itself published Thomas Friedman's column (October 16 2001) commending Memri translations. The Qatari Al-Jazeera television channel also trusts Memri and frequently asks me to appear on their programmes.
Even the Palestinian National Authority website has posted our material - with attribution. On the other hand, it is interesting to see whom Whitaker did choose to quote to back up his allegations against Memri. Ibrahim Hooper is the spokesman of CAIR, the Council on American Islamic Relations, which supports Hamas.
· Yigal Carmon is president of the Middle East Media Research Institute (Memri)
Pegcity:
If you haven't heard already, sit down and take a deep breath and slowly turn on the news. Belinda Stronach has just earned Quisling of the Year award - she has crossed the floor and accepted a cabinet position with the Liberals. She may not be easy - but she sure is cheap (to buy). It looks like the Liberals might hang on after all and pass the motion of non-confidence. Damn!
Re: scourge_of_landos
They didn't "let" the Air India bombers off - the trial judge found them not guilty. I don't blame the judge or crown prosecutors but the government screwed this one up from the get go. BTW, when the bombing occurred in 1985, it was a Conservative government so we can't blame this on the Liberals. The RCMP and the newly formed CSIS (Canadian Security Intelligence Service) screwed up the investigation including losing key evidence. There was also valid criticism that the government would have taken a much tougher stand had it been for example, an Air Canada flight full of people called Smith or Jones. One person was sought but escaped to India where Indian police later killed him. All in all, this is a terrible example of the Canadian justice system.
Sorry, OT:
The Law of Abrogation.
Does anyone know when it was accepted? I know that Al-Azhar mosque issued it, but when? I am having a VERY successful time "converting" people away from the ROP by explaining this, as well as taqqiya and kitman, and then throwing in some of the violent quotes against non-muslims found in the Koran.
If I could explain it more, it would help my cause. Thanks!
Sorry folks but I am OT
but as it is me I may be excused
Comments
(Note: Comments that are off-topic,offensive, slanderous,or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted.However,the fact that this particular comment/link is posted to this thread by me IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by SHIVA of the Humour expressed therein.)
I think it needs to be viewed
http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/05.05.15.Flushed-X.gif
Sorry, I meant, "converting" people away from sympathy with the ROP>
That is true Shukri, but it is also true that the vast majority of terrorists are Muslim.
What are we to think? All that is seen and said is death to America. And now you want us to accept your assessment of the love and understanding of Islam?
By the way, I found several more uses for the pages of the Koran.
Anyone here like to know what they are?
I have to agree with what feralee said: The greater threat is obviously to the United States, not Canada!
I have known for a long time now that Al Qaeda was having an easy time of it up in the Great White North. I also have noted a tremendous apathy on the part of too many Canadians where the security of the United States is concerned.
Isn't it sad that Canada has grown fat and soft and vulnerable because it can rely on its powerful neighbor to the South, but ironically they are getting eaten away from within, not from an attack from outside by force of arms.
This situation has to change and quickly, or we're going to end up having to piss off Canadians with necessary tariffs and embargoes in order to get our point across I guess.
How many attacks on U.S. interests will have to be traced back to Canada though before anything is done on either side of the border to deal with this growing danger? That's the real question.
There have already been more than a few. Canadian Muslim jihadists were killed in the Afghan conflict for instance....
Free toilet paper here!
http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=1577&theType=NR
Oh OK,
1. Wipe your dipstick clean when checking your oil.
2. Paper mask for spray painting.
3. Wipe for bloody nose.
4. Sopping up toilet overflows.
5. Garbage wrappers.
6. Hand wipes after servicing the lawn mower.
7. Book marks.
8. Backyard air gun targets.
Sorry but, maybe I can find more uses tomorrow. The days only so long ya' know.
Hey DC! I'll never have to buy shop towels again, what with free Korans and all.
That's great news!
May 17, 2005
http://www.beecy.net/frank/
AGAIN NEWS WEEK LIED AND GOOD MEN DIED!!!
NOW THE MSM BLAMES BUSH NOW DON’T THAT JUST BEAT ALL?? THE IRAQI PEOPLE WERE MORE WORRIED ABOUT THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST CUTTING OFF THEIR HEADS, THEN THE GOING AND HAVING PANTIES PUT ON THEIR HEADS THE MSM JUST DOESN’T GETT IT?? OR MAYBE THEY DO AND ARE WITH THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST??
NO WONDER THE IRAQI PEOPLE AFTER A ISLAMIC TERRORIST BLOWS UP THEIR FRIENDS THROWS ROCKS AT THE MSM!!!!
REMEMBER THE MSM IS NOW ON THE SIDE OF THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST!!
NEWSWEEK LIED AND GOOD PEOPLE DIED!!!
REMEMBER ISACOFF IS A DEMOCRAT WHO SAYS THEY ARE NOT DANGOURS???
Illegals working with milk cows infect 18 cows with TB cows had to be put down in Kansas who says Illegals are not Dangerous??
Islamic Terrorist who killed children in Russia trial starts today??
More Islamic Terrorist Dead today thanks to the USA and the Iraqi Army!!!
Brit who got money from saddam[FOUND IN A HOLE DON’T SHOOT I’M A YELLOW COWARD] who now has a summer home in Portugal is in the USA to defend why he had taken the money from saddam[FOUND IN A HOLE DON’T SHOOT I’M A YELLOW COWARD] for that SUMMERHOME??
President Bush yesterday to promote Bio Diessal so we can grow our own fule for our Trucks!!! NO FOOD FOR YOU!! Yes President wants America to be FREE from sorces of forigen energy!!!
Wonder if the Arabs can eat black oil???
Sec. Rice went to Iraq who said she aint got any Balls!!! MSM said she had wore a vest?? NOT!! Well she looked Great loved the suit and the Cream color looked so good on her!! Well when the Pictures came out the MSM changed their story said she had a helment and vest while in a helo?? WELL DUH EVEN REPORTERS WHO LEAVE THEIR HOTELS WEAR THAT STUFF IN A HELO RIDE SO DO THE CONGRESSMEN AND WOMEN WHO GO OVER??
AGAIN THE NEWS WEEK LIED AND PEOPLE DIED !!! WHAT IS THE MSM ADGENDA ???
China is trying to Black Mail the Pope??
Another plane deverts cause a islamic terrorist on board??
AGAIN NEWSWEEK LIED AND GOOD PEOPLE DIED SHAME! SHAME!
WHO WAS THEIR SORCE THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST?? WHO WANTS TO DAMAGE THE USA BESIDES LIBERALS WHO BLAME EVERYTHING ON THE GOOD PEOPLE OF THE USA??
AFTER ALL WE DO HAVE SOME BAD PEOPLE LIKE EVERY WHERE IN THE WORLD ARE THEY THE MARJORTY HELL NO!! JUST LIKE THE DEMOCRATS ARE NOT THE MAJORTIY THEY ARE THE MINARTIY!! YES THEY LOST BECAUSE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE LOVE THEIR FREEDM AND WANTED PRESIDENT TO LEAD THIS NATION TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT THEM!!!!
Faranc mans shute does not open and he dies??
Mexican Fox says he regrets his comments about Black Americans being Lazy?? Fox words do mean things!!!
News week lied and good people died!!! Shame! SHAME! SHAME! Why would newsweek do this if not to hurt the USA???
Islamic Terrorist murder clerics in Iraq now why would sader[]YELLOW FAT BOY] have his people do this ? he is in with the iran terrorist?? Could it be so he can take over just like he murdered 200 people in the mosque in Najif? Why is this FAT BOY still alive come on Iraqi People do not let this MONSTER take you down the path of destruction????
TX man comes to the aid of men beating a woman and was killed by the monsters gang were they illegal or a mulsum gang?? Remember the Islamic terrorist hand book?? WELL it is getting close to the time when all Americans will have to wear a Gun again??
BIO DESISSAL!!! YES OUR FARMERS GROW OUR FULE CAN THE ARABS EAT OIL??? NO FOOD FOR YOU!!
I AM BEGINNING TO THINK THE IRAQIS MADE A POOR CHOICE IN THEIR ELELCTION SEAMS THEY ARE NOT STOPPING THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND TODAY HAVE JUST MADE IT EASIER FOR THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST YES THEY ARE SELLING THE IRAQI PEOPLE OUT TO IRAN YES THE NEW IRAQI LEADER IS A PUPET OF IRAN?? WELL THEY CAN CHANGE HIM IN THE UP COMING ELECTION HOPE THEY DO!!
AGAN newsweek lies and good people died!!! What is the adgenda of this rag?? To HURT AMERICA AND HER PEOPLE???
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FO5CES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO VICTORY[FREEDOM] TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM OPEN THE WORLDS EYES TO THEIR THREAT LET NOT THE WORLD BE DECEIVED BY THEM AMEN
PS
Notice how tommy boy never adimeted he put a death threat on me he Is a one snikey sob turns every thing to himself he is a real nutter and thinks no one can see through him??
pss
NOT A TRUCKER AN AM A GAL AND GOT SOME PRETTY NEW SHOES PINK WITH LITTLE WHITE BOES LITTLE SPIKE HEEL AND WILL HAVE TO PAINT THE TOES BEING THAT THEY ARE REALLY SANDLES!!
Not sure if this was posted here already.
There is a photo of Allah himself.
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/stdn/std/Weekend/GD23Jp01.html
If you are Malay, you are Muslim. If you disagree, you are bound for court or jail. But recent raids on nightclubs and homes suggest the country's religious police are gaining a disturbing hold on society, writes Vaudine England
Weekend: April 23-24, 2005
To the uninitiated, Ayah Pin, 65, once known as Ariffin Mohammed, seems like just another aging Malay villager. To his followers in the eastern Malaysian state of Terengganu, however, Ayah Pin is a reincarnation of everyone from Shiva to Buddha to Jesus Christ to, yes, the Prophet Mohammed.
On a recent rainy Saturday afternoon Ayah Pin's colorful Sky Kingdom compound near the town of Jerteh saw acolytes and visitors gathered around God, in person, at the coffee shop.
God is smoking Salem menthol cigarettes and his rheumy eyes suggest a lack of sleep, perhaps due to the late-night sessions of religious fervor and consultations held at his compound.
His simple philosophy is that all religions are one, and should live in peace with each other.
``All things belong to Ayah, I am the Big Father. All Muslims belong to Ayah, all Hindus belong to Ayah, all Christians belong to Ayah ...'' he says in a trailing voice.
In most countries, Ayah Pin would be dismissed as the local crackpot and left at that.
Not so in Malaysia.
Here it is a daring thing to follow the Sky Kingdom. Four of Ayah Pin's followers have been labeled apostates by the government's religious authorities and forced to do time in jail for trying to leave Islam. Two days after I visited the old man, the Malaysian police Special Branch was on the phone asking me why the visit had been made, what had been said, and more.
The overreaction stems from the Malaysian constitution which states, all too clearly, that if one is Malay, then one is Muslim, and that's that. Islamic scholars say it's not that ethnicity determines one's faith, but that anyone who enters Islam must remain. Here in Malaysia's Hotel Islam, you can check in anytime you like, but you can never leave.
Sober Islamic scholars insist that serious reasons are needed to explain any desire to overturn the submission to Allah implied in the Muslim faith.
Why should modern Malaysians worry about such things? Because alongside the country's civil code and legal system is the Islamic sharia court system, and a group of often zealous officials in the Religious Affairs Department eager to enforce their notions of Islamic law. Any Muslim person can be subject to the sharia court on matters of faith and behavior.
In January, a controversial raid by the Religious Affairs Department on a nightclub netted more than 100 ``indecently dressed'' young Muslim men and women. Shocking to many of their middle-class parents was the abusive behavior of those in charge of the arrests.
The raid highlighted a string of excesses by these self-styled guardians of public morality. Couples have been arrested for holding hands. In February, an actor and his female friend were arrested for ``close proximity'' inside an apartment which was raided.
This goes too far even for some Muslim scholars. The chief minister of Kelantan state, Nik Aziz Nik Mat, a leader in the opposition Islamist Party of Malaysia, (PAS), says that Muslims are allowed to drink, undress and generally do what they want in the privacy of their own homes.
Kamariah Ali is a homey-looking woman who believes that her time in jail for following Ayah Pin ``was worth it.'' She is now ``free,'' at peace in the Sky Kingdom and looking forward to joining her dead husband, a fellow detainee.
But she still faces charges in the sharia courts for attempting to leave Islam. With her husband and two others, she was convicted of deviant practices in 1992. She's been in and out of jail since, followed and harassed by security authorities and forced out of work as a school teacher. In 1998 she chose to leave Islam, as presumably she could no longer be accused of deviation if she left the faith. But trials have continued for years since, for her presumption in attempting to leave the faith.
``Malays are second-class citizens in this country when it comes to matters of faith,'' says her lawyer Haris Mohammed Ibrahim. Anyone trying to leave Islam faces loss of inheritance, family support and work, and banishment to a legal limbo where the religious label on one's identity card becomes a life-defining fact.
Take the case of Lina Joy, who has for years been trying to get the word ``Islam'' removed from her ID card so that she can remarry, to a non-Muslim. Her case is in the Court of Appeal and no one will predict her chances of success.
But now a petition started by non-government organizations has garnered surprisingly broad support, including the signatures of several members of parliament and two government ministers.
``We question the state's role in defining and controlling the morality of its citizens and its use of punitive religious and municipal laws. Forced and fearful compliance with such laws results not in a more moral society but a mass of terrified, submissive and hypocritical subjects ...
``We are against the use of these state instruments, and the individuals and groups enlisted as their surrogates, to regulate morality. How people dress and where, how and with whom they socialize are personal choices,'' the joint statement reads.
They call for the repeal of religious and municipal laws that deny citizens fundamental rights to privacy, freedom of speech and expression. They are seeking the appointment of a committee to monitor the repealing of laws, and for the strengthening of pluralism through community dialogue ``rather than the divisiveness bred by sub-contracting of moral policing and neighbors spying on neighbors.''
A separate initiative has been announced by a group of prominent Muslims led by Tengku A'Amash. A group of 221 signatories have sent a letter to the sultans of each state in Malaysia who are, according to the constitution, responsible for religious matters. The letter calls for the sultans to reclaim their authority over religion from the hands of more hardline Islamic scholars who have been able to issue fatwas almost at whim.
``There is a sense of helplessness, a sense that not all is right within Islam,'' A'Amash said at a press conference called to highlight the appeal for a more balanced approach to the faith.
``Our statute books are littered with laws we are told will make us better Muslims. But we need to reflect, are they in fact Islamic? Some act as a fetter on the Muslim mind,'' he said.
The growing activism among middle-class parents and intellectuals may not produce immediate change but they are part of a growing chorus of discontent over how the country's constitution and Islamic faith are interpreted.
Now ABIM is drawing up for battle against groups such as the moderate Sisters in Islam.
Azizuddin Ahmad, ABIM secretary general, says that just because one raid on a nightclub was mismanaged, there is no need to repeal laws and overhaul sharia. ``Just because of one mosquito, we don't need to burn the net,'' he said in an interview, in which he promised to mobilize support across the country against any move to re-examine Islamic laws.
``We will organize our own gathering of NGOs and call on the people to reject this idea. We will fight this culture of hedonism that is gaining ground in society, for which the NGOs are even willing to rope in religion,'' he told the respected news Web site Malaysiakini.com.
The opposition PAS party is engaged in a public spat with the Sisters in Islam, with some calling for it to be de-registered as an organization and for its members to be brought to book.
The first step for the liberals is to try to raise the debate above the level where anyone seeking change is pilloried as wanting to introduce every known sin into public life. The liberals reply that of course they don't want to wear bikinis in parliament - as one conservative accused them - but they want the state out of their private life.
Growing conservatism is ``now hanging in the air like the haze'' caused by forest fires, laments Masjaliza Hamzah of Sisters of Islam.
The problem goes back to the way Malaysia was formed on independence from Britain in 1957. The federal constitution gives the government power over most daily matters. But the sultans, the royal families in each state, were given the compensation prize of power over such things as religion. Religious law thus varies from state to state and depends on the personalities involved. A recent speech by the Sultan of Selangor was hailed by the progressive camp as a beacon of light because he suggested that overzealous interpretation of Islamic laws would only turn younger generations against the faith.
``It's quite alarming in some ways. There is just not a rational level of debate,'' says Hamzah, a Muslim intellectual and former journalist who sees no need to wear a head scarf to prove her genuine commitment to Islam.
``Having morality laws opens up the opportunities for abuses. It's often easier to pay off officers who try to arrest you for holding hands in public, for example, than to try to fight the substance of the law itself,'' she says, citing the case of the actress Jeslina Hashim who was caught in the January nightclub raid and then spoke out against it. ``Her name has been dragged through the mud, there's been a whole campaign to tarnish her image,'' says Hamzah.
A key point in the theological argument is whether Islam allows for a multitude of behaviors as seen, for example, in nearby Indonesia, where Islam has a far more diverse and tolerant history.
Some Malaysian intellectuals point out that in their country, where only about 60 percent of people are Malay and thus Muslim, greater efforts are made to assert a Muslim identity vis a vis the Chinese and Indian communities. In Indonesia, where a vast number of ethnic groups and identities are all called Indonesian, Islam has played a smaller role in forging national identity.
In Malaysia, the notion of rigid interpretation starts early, in that only Sunni Islam is allowed, with Shiite beliefs outlawed.
``There is no minority in Islam,'' says Azizuddin, secretary general of ABIM. ``I don't like to label people liberal or progressive or fundamentalist. Islam is Islam. But the level of understanding makes the difference.''
``Behavior modification is a process,'' says Azizuddin.
So is child rearing, confides one Malay Muslim mother, who laments the increasing difficulty of bringing up her children as Muslims. ``They see their friends, who are Chinese or Indian Malaysians, able to go out and have fun, who can do what they want, and they ask me why they, as Muslims, don't have the same freedoms,'' she says.
``How do you explain away the breaking of laws by religious enforcers who claim they are acting in the name of the law?'' she asks.
nichtdhimmi visit
my site sign up I will help you through it.
Smug describes Canada,
self-righteous also fits very well, especially in relation to Canada's view of itself vs the U.S.
Sadly, i agree with whoever, above,
suggested it will take 'booms' here before Canadians wake up.
waterdragon52, interesting that MEMRI's response did not address the motivations of their founders. I think that it is extremely clear that MEMRI has a easily identifiable political agenda and chooses to translate articles/media based on such an agenda. This is why it is unreliable.
Bill, it is true that Muslims are called terrorists. The lack of definition and meaning of the term make this somewhat unreliable as a statement.
Not surprising since the source are anti-Muslim websites that get off on reporting this kind of thing. No matter that the overall proportion of such incidents is minute.
Free toilet paper here!
http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=1577&theType=NR
Posted by: DCWatson at May 17, 2005 02:07 PM
REMEMBER THE THREE CALLS DON'T BE SURPRISED IF THIS IS THEIR SECOND CALL???
Remember
The 2nd Amendment!!!
America's Original Homeland Security!!!
Also Remember the mulsums in the USA were suposed to have an anti terror rally ONLY 50 SHOWED????
Now why are the press not covering this??
then the next thing you know CAIR is handing out qu-rans???
No this in their mind is their second call????
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM GIVE THE WORLD COURAGE TO STAND UP AND FIGHT THIS EVIL AMEN
Shukri,
You said "Bill, it is true that Muslims are called terrorists. The lack of definition and meaning of the term make this somewhat unreliable as a statement."
I think the term is clear enough for people that are not dependent on their Imam to tell them what is right and what is wrong. I can't speak for those people, but for the girls I go with it's plenty clear.
You said "Not surprising since the source are anti-Muslim websites that get off on reporting this kind of thing. No matter that the overall proportion of such incidents is minute."
Please Shukri, point us all to the Islamic sites that say we love America, that say we stand with America, that say terrorism is wrong, that say we tolerate the Jews, that say we think Christians are good people, that say love thy neighbor, that say follow the golden rule.
Please Shukri, show us all.
Please don’t flush a koran, think about the poor defenseless toilets.
Cross
President of the World Organization of PETT
People for the Ethical Treatment of Toilets
Thank you
Sorry for being out of topic. I have no interest in wasting everyones time here.
Catherine:
Notice how tommy boy never adimeted he put a death threat on me he Is a one snikey sob turns every thing to himself he is a real nutter and thinks no one can see through him?? (sic) (sic) (sic)
How did I threaten you with death? Cite it and provide a link to it. In fact, what I said, that is if you can read, was that I HAVE BEEN SUBJECT TO DEATH THREATS.
And again Catherine, you failed to establish that I have decieved anyone. You tried twice to use an FPM article to show how I lied, yet you failed to quote all of what I said. What does that say about your character? You are dishonest. I still don't know why you try so hard to catch me in some sort of deception. You are obsessed. put all your evidence on the table with citations and links. You have come to this fight unprepared.
Catherine, you are pathetic. I won't argue with you all day today. Simply, tell me if you have the guts, in a clear manner (and not in incoherent toddler babling) where I threatened you with death. And be careful Catherine, accusing someone of death threats without proof can amount to defamation.
Catherine, I wont do this all day. Some of us actually work. Its early morning in New Zealand and I actually have a grown up job. So if you can please email your post and response at t.haidon@justice.com. I eagerly await it.
Catherine read this article by me as well:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16023
Produce your proof...
Thomas
I'm still having trouble finding reasonable Koran toilet paper. If Shukri or Thomas ever get their hands cut off I think I'd prefer using those to that awful paper DC Watson is suggesting. However, if the guys aren't going to lose a hand, can I borrow it and then give it back? I'm not unreasonable. You can clean your hand with pages from the koran I have laying around in the bathroom.
No problem son of walker... any time mate... Glad to lend a helping hand.
Thomas, I do apreciate your response, unexpected as it is. As you well know, it's also the wrong response. Perhaps if more men were like you I wouldn't be writng that kind of nonsense to provoke those who murdered and continue to murder my friends. I have no sympathy for those who practice fascism, not on the Left, the Right, or in Islam. I do thank you for your considered response, but you are one in a million, sophisticated enough to take it as a mean-spirited provocation rather than as yet another excuse to indulge in murder for the sake of murder and personal fulfillment of the blood-rites of fascist Islam. It's rare one meets a fascist gladiator with anything more than the most primitive sense of life and death. Hope we meet someday in the Balkans or the Caucasus to match wits like men, to meet you rather than the typical savage Moslem living in the cave of the mind.
And I'll take your hand, Thomas.
Greetings son of walker:
No worries mate. I get a bit rattled by some of these remarks, but they are said out of frustration and anger.
Perhaps if more men were like you I wouldn't be writng that kind of nonsense to provoke those who murdered and continue to murder my friends.
I have also lost. As I mentioned in a previou spost, I lost two frineds on 9/11 who worked with morgan stanley.
And I'll take your hand, Thomas.
No problem... Ill try to ensure its a clean cut for you...
Cheers
Thomas
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/006194.php#comments
Great Catherine the hypocrite:
There's a difference between sounding like a nazi and being one.
No there is not, there is an inextrincable link. If you believe or support "nazi ideology" by definition you are a Nazi. Muslims who support Jihad ideology are akin to Nazi's.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Posted by: Thomas at May 16, 2005 08:30 PM
DO YOU REALY THINK WE ARE SUCKERS??
TOMMY BOY AND ALL WITH PICTURES!!!
MUSLUM ARMY FOR HITLER!!!
KILLES 100 OF THOUSANDS OF CHRISTIANS!!!
FACTS JUST THE FACTS MAN!!!
YOU GOT THAT RIGHT BABY AND PICTURES AND EVERY THING!!! GO LOOK!!
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/AminAlHusseini.htm#_ednref24
NOW THIS NAME IN THE WEST MEANS NOTHING BUT YOU SHOULD CHOSE YOUR WORDS REAL CAREFUL BECAUSE YOU KNOW BY CALLING THIS NAME TO ME IT IS A DEATH THREAT IN YOUR KORAN??
AND WE SEE 17 DEAD BECAUSE OF A RUMMOR!!!
P.S.: Catherine has good instincts and lots of good info.
Posted by: metaxy at May 16, 2005 10:36 PM
We are all angry, as a Muslim I am angry too at the cesspool that Islam is. But why can't that anger be focused properly? Lets analyse intelligently. What I am seeing here is mob mentatlity.
Thomas
Posted by: Thomas at May 16, 2005 07:22 PM
NO WE SEE THE MOBS AND THEY KILLED 17 PEOPLE OVER A RUMMOR??
AND THE BREAKING NEWS SHOW MASS GRAVE OF CHRISTIANS KILLED BY MULSUMS ??
Mass grave found in the balkins and they weren't mulsun in those graves OH NO THEY WERE CHRISTANS
BREAKING NEWS???
TOMMY BOY I WAS NOT GOING TO GET INTO THIS WITH YOU BUT YOU STARTED CALLING ME NAMES WHY I HAVE NO IDEA IT IS YOUR PEOPLE KILLING PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD IN THE NAME OF YOUR god BUT HERE WE GO??
Qur’an 9:71 “O Prophet, strive hard [fighting] against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be harsh with them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed.”
NO WHEN YOU STARTED OFF YOUR STATEMENT TO ME YOU SAID CATHERIN THE HYPOCRITE NOW IN YOUR BOOK THat CALLS FOR MY DEATH??
Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”
NOW IN YOUR BOOK IS SIMPLE IT CALLS FOR THE DEATH OF NON-MULSUM AND YES IT IS EASY TO TWIST A SIMPLE MINDED PEOPLE AND YOU AS AN EDCATATED MAN KNOWS THIS!!
Qur’an 4:168 “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”
NOW YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE DIFFERENT BUT I SEE DIFFERENT!!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM SRENGTH,SIGHT,WIDOM AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN
PS
DONE FEEDING THE TROLL!!
MAY BE HE NEEDS TO READ?
http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_8249.shtml
Islam And The Quran
It is Islam itself that needs to be educated by you peaceful Muslims. Not the rest of us. We see what we see, and we know what we know, and whether you believe it or not, many of us have read the Quran and felt it was not for us and perhaps chose another religion. But our former religion did not have us killed or ordered to be put to death for leaving. Some have even left our religions and become Satanists. Sad as it may be to the followers of the God of Abraham, we believe they have their choice and will face God Himself. We truly believe our God is strong enough and holy enough to defend Himself and to rightly judge others. He does not want us to, or need us to commit acts of evil to show the world He is Holy and Just. Some will mock Him, mock the Bible, and our ways. But we have no right to slaughter those who do so.
Muslims, teach your own. Go into the world and put your faith to the test. Go to the aforementioned nations and get on those loud speakers yourselves. Decry those actions and diffuse this madness through your teachings and outreach to Muslims who have been deceived. And perhaps the world will believe your message when we see that happen.
Or are you afraid perhaps that those passages they use from the Quran can not be debated? And perhaps by teaching peace and love, compassion and truth, that you yourself may be the next blasphemer and sentenced to death?
I often wonder why those who proclaim peace in Islam never seem to take the message to where the violence is. They simply seem to try and tell us that the atrocities we see in the name of Islam are not what Islam espouses.
But I say, images and actions speak louder than opinion. Until you allow Allah to fight his own battles, your people and religion will always be suspect.
PSS
I LIKE THIS OUT OF TH qu-ran!!!
http://www.beecy.net/frank/
Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the people of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease. And for those to whom the Scripture Book has been given, and the believers, there should be no doubt. The unbelievers may say, ‘What does the Lord intend by this?’ The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases, and He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”
This can be broken by Yes it is the Army of the people of the Book who he has chosen to Free [USA] the Iraqi people as it says
He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”
Yes he has chosen the USA!!
TO FREE THE IRAQI PEOPLE FROM THE MONSTER saddam [FOUND IN A HOLE DON’T SHOOT I’M A YELLOW COWARD]
And let’s look at another part?
The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases,
Ubl,saddam,zawari,all who Kill and destroy mankind?
There will be no more warnings?
Earthquake in Iran kills 31,000 who harbors ubls[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] son and wife’s??
And now Locus in Egypt
NOW IF THAT IS NOT TELLING YOU ARE ON THE WRONG PATH NOTHING WILL??
Kazakhstan Blast in mine??
Islamic terrorist- killing Iraqis??
Earthquake in Algeria??
The typhoon in Philippines Remember they ran away from the Fight in Iraq??
http://www.onlypunjab.com/fullstory1104-insight-Pink+Locusts+from+North+Africa-status-15-newsID-503.html
Pink Locusts from North Africa Swarm Through Cairo
Publish Date : 11/18/2004 5:09:00 PM Source : Science and Technology News Onlypunjab.com
Swarms of pink locusts swept through the Egyptian capital on Wednesday, evoking the biblical description of the plagues which struck in the time of Moses.
The swarms of millions flew high above tall towers or swooped down onto treelined streets, where scared pedestrians stamped
on them or ran for cover.
The flying insects arrived from neighboring Libya after devouring the countryside in central and western Africa in past months.
YES I SAY ubl[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] is losing and trying to regain control??
What verses did he say in his rambling and to say about the people of the book??
The people of
the book didn’t lose their crops??
Now Earthquake of mulsum Islands of Indonesia?? 9.3 and afterwards mass killer waves that effect many countries?/
Who is coming to the aid of the people But the Red Cross and India to help the people and Israel and the USA and the Western countries!!
210,000, mulsum killed in Indonesia alone?? Whole mulsum towns gone?? And Churches still standing??
We are waiting for the mulsums to help other mulsums?? Or with the entire fund raising they do help people instead of making war??
And now more 6.2 earthquakes in Indonesia?? Because they have sent Islamic terrorist to terrorize the victims of the killer wave??
January 11, 2005 Philippines an 4.3 Earthquake ??
Maybe small there because the fight against Islamic Terrorist??
Was ubls[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] family in Indonesia we know they support Islamic Terrorist??
January 23 6.3 Earthquake in Indonesia??
I hear that extra guards have been posted on the Grapevine raisins??
DONE!!!!!!!!
Catherine,
So let me get this straight. Calling you a hypocrite is tantamount tt making a death threat, just because the Quran makes reference to hypocrites? Catherine, in case you can't recall in our many conversations, I do not take the Qur'an literally, because it is impossible to do so, by virtue of the contradictory nature of it. Catherine, you are a joke, not a hypocrite.
And what of your attempts to show I am a taqiyya master? You cited two quotes from article yesterday without quoting the entire argument. You also falsely attributed a statement written by Jamie Glazov of FPM to me. What say you?
Yours very sincerely
Thomas
Thomas,
"I do not take the Qur'an literally..."
In all sincerity, I do not understand how you can make a statement such as this and yet claim to be Muslim.
Isn't the belief of Muslims that the Qur'an is a literal dictation by Allah, via Gabriel, to Muhammad?
I am very interested in how you resolve this dictat with your current belief system.
Regards
Hi Skeet Street:
I will answer your question shortly. Its definitely a fair one. I just have to step out for about an hour. Briefly though, the Qur'an cannot be taken literally because many ayat are contraidctory. I do not accept the man made doctrine of Nafsh (abrogation) either... I will give you a specific verse when I get back...
cheers
Thomas
Skeet:
Isn't the belief of Muslims that the Qur'an is a literal dictation by Allah, via Gabriel, to Muhammad?
Yes that its true. But anyone with a shred of sanity knows that the Qur'an is not the unaltered word of God. It has undergone revision and changes. Just read Ibn Waraq's book on the origins of the Qur'an. A perfect revelation would not contain so many doctrinal contradictions. Muslims, needed to create the doctrine of abrogation to resolve differences.
There is an ayat that I have before that often reminds me that the Qur'an as a whole is not meant to be taken literally:
7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical seeking discord and searching for its hidden meanings but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord"; and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding". (3:7)
But again, it is impossible to take the Qur'an literally.
Cheers
Thomas
G'day Son of Walker:
You aid and abet those who killed my own, and even yours. Well, Thomas, it is personal. You support those who kill mine, the umma who murder mine for their personal gain. When I take your hand I'll tell the friends I have left that yours is the hand that will not strike again.
I aid and abet those who kill your own? Wrong. I fight them on verey level. I challenge them in the mosque, on the street and in writing. What do you do? They are a bigger threat to me than they are you. I challenge you to show how I have aided and abetted. It is you who are aiding abetting them, by targeting those who seek to reform Islam. My fate would be no better in your hand than it would be in the terrorists. From your statement I really believe that you would slay me if you could. You are part of the evil that you wish to strike down. Perhaps it is you who is Muslim, and not I.
Whom have I struck? You are greatly misguided. Let me ask what has your contribution been? What do you do? Or do you just talk? I am happy to give you my address if you want to take my hand.
I do not support the Islamic doctrine of Jihad. The application of it throughout history has left a trail of murder and evil.
Cheers mate.
Thomas
Son of Walker:
I am just curious frind. Is that a threat? Are you actually threatening to kill me?
Lets put things in perspective. I suspect I have done more to fight Islam and extremism in a week than yiu have done in your entire lifetime. I have put myself in harms way to challenge Muslims on the ideology of Jihad and dhimmitude. I have done it, almost to my peril in Palestine, Egypt and Sudan. Again, I have spoken in mosques on streets and even challenged a group of Muslims celebrating 9/11 on its second anniversay in Khartoum. And I have suffered the losses of Islamic terrorism as well. I suspect that you have not.
Thomas
Thomas - you are brave doing so - but you ignore the fact that as long as the Koran exists - so to will those who read and see "terror is good". You cannot 'reinterpret' this book.
When Martin Luther had his argument with the Pope - it was about HAVING SOMEONE interpreting the Bible for others, and the abuse of power that followed. He was arguing that NO ONE should claim that they can interpret the Bible for others, as that was what led to the abuse of power. He said people should be FREE to read it themselves AND make their own minds up.
So Luther was doing the reverse to what you want to do Thomas, that is Luther was saying READ the Bible as is - not to let the POPE, who is just a sinful man, interpret it.
Thomas, you advocate a new "Tafsir" or interpretation and therein lies the problem. Read the Bible literally you are commanded to love your neighbour. Read the Koran literally you are commanded to kill and enslave infidels.
One day a Muslim will ignore the "tafsir", that Muslims like you hope to introduce, and then fly planes into buildings - especially after they look at how Mohammed lived as a war lord and an infidel crusher.
G'day thirdtime:
Thomas, you advocate a new "Tafsir" or interpretation and therein lies the problem. Read the Bible literally you are commanded to love your neighbour. Read the Koran literally you are commanded to kill and enslave infidels.
A new tafsir could assist in moving away from literalism by applying a contextual as opposed to a textual approach. I am a contextualist and there are others. Read the writings of Ahmed Mansour if you have time. The Qur'an still will remain problematic because of its contents. Revision, clearly is the better option. Practically and realistically speaking however it will not happen (unfortunately). Because of the mental condition of the "ummah", the problems of Islam can only be mitigated. A clear cut solution cannot be foundm when you have Muslims doing what they are doing.
Cheers
Thomas
This article also puts to rest the 'do gooder' debate that poverty and lack of education leads to fanatical clerics manipulating the disadvantaged into 'terrorism'.
In Australia there have been a few 'white' converts to Islam who have ended up fighting their own country. They, like Bin Laden, were not poor, and were well educated individuals. Yet they want to kill infidels. Why?
The Koran tells them so, and hence, throwing bucket loads of money to poor Muslim countries will NOT stem the tide of Islamic killers.
The number of "white converts" from Canada, the United States and Australia I witnessed converting through the Al-Azhar system in Cairo was eye opening to say the least. After my shahadat, I was actually asked by two Al-Azhar officals to consider becoming a muhajid in Pakiatsan or Afghanistan, and to learn the "correct" vision of Islam.
There are a growing number of "white converts" here in NZ, who are radical as well, who are fed and taught by the Arab mosques in Auckland, Hamilton and Christchurch. There are even a growing number of Maoir converts who have openly embraced Osama bin Laden... These converts engage in da'wa at local prisons, prostelyizing Islam and support for bin Laden.
Catherine, I wont do this all day. Some of us actually work. Its early morning in New Zealand and I actually have a grown up job. So if you can please email your post and response at t.haidon@justice.com. I eagerly await it.
Catherine read this article by me as well:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16023
Produce your proof...
Thomas
Posted by: Thomas at May 17, 2005 06:17 PM
TOMMY BOY SINCE YOU ARE STILL HERE DOES THAT COUNT AS A LIE!!!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN
Hi Catherine
TOMMY BOY SINCE YOU ARE STILL HERE DOES THAT COUNT AS A LIE!!!!
Well, I suppose it does. Congragulations, you finally caught me in classical Islamic deception! Good on ya mate. I am actually working while I post here at work.
What can I say Catherine, you nailed me... Congrats again!
Cheers
Thomas
HiThomas
Good to talk to you. But how can you say it is gods word if it is so problematic?
As a Christian, (and atheists hate this when I say this - as do some Christians), I take the Bible literally. In fact I love the challenges it presents when a skeptic/ non literalist throws me a Biblical challenge about literalism and context. I also believe that God has written it for ME to understand, not some minister, Pope, or some cleric. (God does not need a man to interpret his word for his followers.)
I am yet to have a skeptic/ non literalist prove the Bible otherwise to me(including the non literalist Bible College professors I have argued with, oh and Giaor). In fact it has helped me to see how the Bible is really Gods word, and how the OT is written in the NT, and vise versa. In fact the challenge to the Christian world has been whether or not to take it literally.
The vast part of the Christian world has said "no". The result? The demise of the Christian church in the West, and the rise of secularism and atheism and evolution, along with Islam, thanks to an a-religious apathic public who have no idea about their Christian heritage.
The same will happen to Islam if you don't take the Koran as "gods" word. It will disappear in the ME and elsewhere, and that is why your efforts will be resisted. If the Koran is not to be taken literally, Islam in the East, will go the same way as Christianity in the West.
And this Thomas is what the socialist/ multi nationalist business types want. Why? Business has no borders, to make more money you need peace and a one world government (have you heard the saying, "I don't care what the people believe, just give me control of the money!)How from an atheists/socialist point of view do you get peace, especially in a nuclear age? From a one world government. Three dogmatic religions stand in their way, guess which ones?
- Judeaism
- Christianity
- Islam
That is, the literalists in these three. Why? Because they cannot agree with each other, let alone with the socialist/evolutionary ideals (take a look at Eurabia - they are the grand experiment for this one world government) that the one world government will have, and that denies a supreme creator.
That to, is why I believe our politicians will not admit that Islam is the reason for terror. They want the people to get sick and tired of this war, so that a 'savior' can pull us out of it and create (as GW's daddy liked to say) "A New World Order" - it happens after each major war.
Conversely - a world common enemy (now that Judasim and Christianity are dealt with) - will be a uniting force, leading to a one world government and a new status quo. The New World Order types are probably glad that the Islamic world is going 'all out'.
Think about it - when have governments ever relaxed personal freedoms? Yet in war, they have always RESTRICTED them, but in the peace that follows - the status quo created during war remains the same. War unites, and the One Worlders know it. Trouble is, unlike Christianity, Islam is much more militant, and as the saying goes, “those that play with fire……”
Thomas:
The Koran can be taken anyway you wish, because it is a false book fabricated by a mad, megalomaniac charismatic out of lies and bits and pieces of Judaism and Christianity.
Muhammad knew exactly what he was doing when he concocted his plan to united the animist tribes of Arabia. It has worked TOO well.
When anyone takes the time to compare the life of Muhammad to that of Christ, there is really no comparison at all.
Islam is a cult and the worst of the lot. The only reason reasonable people even consider that it needs to be reformed instead of irradicated is because so many millions would suddenly be left without direction if they were to finally understand the truth -- that and the fact that to become an apostate is the same as putting a bounty on your own head.
Such is the tenderness of the "religion of peace" that is islam.
What do you have left to argue with after the things I just said here?
Foehammer
Hi foehammer:
What do you have left to argue with after the things I just said here?
At the end of the day this is not a matter for you an I to argue about. If Muslims choose to reform their religion they will do so. Islam will be what Muslims decide. Either they can continue the path of continuing violence and maintain a textual approach to the Qur'an and blindly follow Sunnah or they can critically examine the Qur'an, revise if necessary to become contextualist and abandon the man made tradition. When Muslims learn to take a contextualist approach to Qur'anic interpretation, their minds will be opened. And maybe Muslims will discover that Islam is not the faith they should be following. I am all for this. I want Muslims to have the freedom to change religion if they so choose.
Reform or die. Islam and its adherents can either reform and change course or move towards the ultimate clash of civilisations that will leave almost all Muslims dead at the hands of those who are ready to challenge it and contain it. To me reform is the better path. Because there is no other. Islam has to reform, the alternative is much worse than what we are witnessing now. I support Hugh Fitzgerald and Ibn Waraq's thesis of containment, but I also support GENUINE reform movements.
Cheers
Thomas
3rd time:
if you are still there. I am preparing for my submissions to the Select Committee tommorrow morning. I think you are Australian are you not?
If you are I have a question. When terrorist organisations are proscribed by section 5.3 of the Criminal Code 1952, are such decisions by the Minister subject to judicial review? I would assume any decision by a Minister would trigger such a right. But I was reading about the Criminal Code Amendment (terrorist organisations) Actwhich essentially places these decisions into the hands of the Attorney-General. And as such, a right to review does not sem from it (I don't think). I think this information might be useful if I am questioned about the terrorist designation process from a comparative perspective. NZ's are slightly different.
Sorry for the long question. if you don't know, no worries. I am trying to do some research on it now, But just in case you knew thats all.
cheers
Thomas
Thomas,
I do not admire Islam as a belief system, yet I admire the patience, good cheer, and willingness to debate that you show in this forum.
Al Qaeda recruitment in Canada should be nearly as easy as it is in France and Germany. The square for hatred of America is already filled, and the target audience already lacks the spine to resist the coercive conversion process.
They'll be beheading prostitutes in Montreal, in no time, and making the U.S. Border Patrol work overtime trying to keep such filth on the northern side of the line.
Very interesting thing about converts and native-born Middle Eastern Muslims. In the USA, we've had a just-off-the-plane Jordanian immigrant go running to the NYPD the minute he heard of a planned subway bopmbing, Yememni-born people fingering the Lackawanna Six, and then Johnny Walker (Full of It) Lindh shooting at his own countrymen. Forget about racial profiling.
Thomas:
Well, at least I see you and I are on the same page when it comes to the realities of the future and the need for reform.
Unfortunately, I am one who sees the need for reform but does not foresee it coming to pass.
There will be another World War, another Crusade perhaps -- at the least, an awakening by the West and the East and the Orthodox to what really must be done.
Westerners sit so stoicly, taking slaps across the face and allowing our leaders to appease the Islamic community time and time again. But the lid will not stay on forever: eventually, worse then on 9-11, the Islamists will go too far -- they will murder too many innocents -- they will finally toss that one rock that will be the "2nd shot heard round the world" and then the quiet Westerners will have had enough.
World War I & II started over far less.
WORTH REPETTING!!
Westerners sit so stoicly, taking slaps across the face and allowing our leaders to appease the Islamic community time and time again. But the lid will not stay on forever: eventually, worse then on 9-11, the Islamists will go too far -- they will murder too many innocents -- they will finally toss that one rock that will be the "2nd shot heard round the world" and then the quiet Westerners will have had enough.
World War I & II started over far less.
Posted by: Foehammer at May 18, 2005 08:41 AM
Gold Star for you today!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fightng Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Sight, Wisdom, Strength, and Courage to stay the course to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorista and ALL who Support them[Newsweek] Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat LET NOT the world be deceived by them Amen
PS
http://www.dangoor.com/72page23.html
Page 23
IRAQI JEWS FOUGHT WITH THE ARABS FOR INDEPENDENCE IN THE FIRST WORLD WAR - THEY TOOK PART IN THE ARAB REVOLT OF 1916-18
Lectures by Nuri al-Said on the Arab Revolt at the Iraqi Staff College in Baghdad.
Recently reprinted in Beirut (in Arabic)
Sharif Hussein of the Hejaz led the revolt against the Turks in June 1916, when they were fighting alongside the Germans in the war against the Allies, Britain and France.
READ THE WHOLE THING!!
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_shaw_1929.php
What was the Shaw Commission in 1929-1930?
The 1929 Arab riots in Palestine triggered another British Commission of Inquiry. In this instance, Sir Walter Shaw chaired the four member Commission, which visited the area and delivered its report in March, 1930.
• We fully realise the important part played by immigration in the policy which we are carrying out under the mandate, as approved by the Council of the League of Nations, namely, that of setting up in Palestine a National Home for the Jewish people. As has been stated repeatedly we have no intention of departing from that policy, or of acting otherwise than in accordance with the terms of the mandate.
HMMM???
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_hope_simpson.php
What was the Hope-Simpson report?
• The Hope-Simpson Commission report said the British practice of ignoring the uncontrolled illegal Arab immigration from Egypt, Transjordan and Syria had the effect of displacing the prospective Jewish immigrants.
• Hope-Simpson is quoted as saying, "They [Jews] paid high prices for the land, and in addition they paid to certain of the occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay."
• Many issues were raised about Hope-Simpson's methodology, in particular the land surveys he used to reach his conclusions. Among the issues criticized were air vs. land-based cultivatable land analysis, mistakes in interpretation due to harvesting of crops just prior to the survey, ambiguities in the process of land acquisition, the vague status of some state lands, and Zionist compensation to squatters which was not legally required. In these and other cases, Hope-Simpson seems to have always drawn pro-Arab conclusions even when the supporting facts were less than complete or solidly based.
• The British Governor of the Sinai from 1922-36 observed: "This illegal immigration was not only going on from the Sinai, but also from Transjordan and Syria, and it is very difficult to make a case out for the misery of the Arabs if at the same time their compatriots from adjoining states could not be kept from going in to share that misery."
• Transjordan's King Abdullah, in his memoirs, says: "It is made quite clear to all, both by the map drawn up by the Simpson Commission and by another compiled by the Peel Commission, that the Arabs are as prodigal in selling their land as they are in useless wailing and weeping"
• In 1931, Lewis French, the British Director of Development for Palestine, conducted a survey of landlessness. He eventually offered new plots to any Arabs who had been "dispossessed." British officials received more than 3,000 applications, of which 80 percent were ruled invalid by the Government's legal adviser because the applicants were not landless Arabs. This left only about 600 landless Arabs, 100 of whom accepted the Government land offer. (Report on Agricultural Development and Land Settlement in Palestine by Lewis French, (December 1931, Supplementary; Report, April 1932) and material submitted to the Palestine Royal Commission.)
HMMM???
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_riots_1936-39.php
What happened during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39?
In April 1936, riots broke out in Jaffa commencing a three-year period of violence and civil strife in Palestine that is known as the Arab Revolt. The Arab Higher Committee, headed by the Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini, led the campaign of terrorism against Jewish and British targets.
HMM HAVEN'T WE BEEN APPESING ENOUGH THEY WILL NEVER STOP UNTILL WE ARE ALL DEAD OR SLAVES??
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_name_origin.php
Where did the name Palestine come from?
HMM???
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_during_ww2.php
What happened in Palestine during World War II?
MUST READ THE WHOLE THING BUCAUSE THE ARABS IE MULSUMS ARE STILL AT IT ALL OVER THE WORLD!!
Husseini soon became an honored guest of the Nazi leadership and met on several occasions with Hitler. He personally lobbied the Führer against the plan to let Jews leave Hungary, fearing they would immigrate to Palestine. He also strongly intervened when Adolf Eichman tried to cut a deal with the British government to exchange German POWs for 5000 Jewish children who also could have fled to Palestine. The Mufti's protests with the SS were successful, as the children were sent to death camps in Poland instead. One German officer noted in his journals that the Mufti would liked to have seen the Jews "preferably all killed." On a visit to Auschwitz, he reportedly admonished the guards running the gas chambers to work more diligently. Throughout the war, he appeared regularly on German radio broadcasts to the Middle East, preaching his pro-Nazi, anti-Semitic message to the Arab masses back home.
During the Second World War in Yugoslavia, many Muslim clerics in Bosnia and Kosovo were willing accomplices in the genocide of the nation's Serbian, Jewish and Roma population. From 1941 until 1945, the Nazi-installed regime of Ante Pavelic in Croatia carried out some of the most horrific crimes of the Holocaust, killing over 800,000 Yugoslav citizens - 750,000 Serbs, 60,000 Jews and 26,000 Roma. In these crimes, they were helped by Muslim fundamentalists in Bosnia and Kosovo who were openly supported by the Palestinian Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini. Husseini openly encouraged Muslims to join Nazi units that would be later implicated in genocide and crimes against humanity - the infamous Hanjar (or Handschar) 13th Waffen SS division.
Husseini represents the prevalent pro-Nazi posture among the Arab/Muslim world before, during and even after the Holocaust. The Nazi-Arab connection existed even when Adolf Hitler first seized power in Germany in 1933. News of the Nazi takeover was welcomed by the Arab masses with great enthusiasm, as the first congratulatory telegrams Hitler received upon being appointed Chancellor came from the German Consul in Jerusalem, followed by those from several Arab capitals. Soon afterwards, parties that imitated the National Socialists were founded in many Arab lands, like the "Hisb-el-qaumi-el-suri" (PPS) or Social Nationalist Party in Syria. Its leader, Anton Sa'ada, styled himself the Führer of the Syrian nation, and Hitler became known as "Abu Ali" (In Egypt his name was "Muhammed Haidar"). The banner of the PPS displayed the swastika on a black-white background. Later, a Lebanese branch of the PPS – which still receives its orders from Damascus – was involved in the assassination of Lebanese President Pierre Gemayel.
I KNOW THIS IS A SHOCK TO MOST BUT WE ARE SEEING THIS ALL LEAD TODAY BY NOT GERMANS BUT THE MULSUMS AGAIN WORTH REPETTING!!!
Hi Thomas
While I have studied a bit of law - absolutely nothing in that area.
Some of the terrorism laws though are a worry. While they are necessary to "fight terror", nobody has defined just what "terror" is.
According to our leaders its not the Koran, its just "Terror".
So while they bring laws in to control "terror" which will primarily affect the Islamic population (meaning the infidels don't care and are hence apathetic), those same laws, due to lack of definition, could also then be extended to other groups deemed as "terrorist". A making of a dictatorship perhaps?
Hence our civil liberties are eroded. What’s more, as I'm sure you are aware, that Australia, and I would imagine NZ, do not have any 'Bill of Rights' like the USA. That makes these laws even scarier, as it is concentrating power, with a lack of any real definition of just what "terror" is, or what our civil rights actually are.
A case in point is the gun laws in Australia. Look at how easy it was for the government to disarm law abiding citizens in Australia, leaving only the Police, Military, and criminals with firearms use in their lives. Did you know its illegal for an Aussie to defend themselves with a firearm - even if the criminal has one? In the US the situation is very different, they ARE allowed to defend themselves (I'm not saying that is right or wrong - just demonstrating how in Aust - we have no civil rights - they are "implied")
Such laws would never come into being in the US, where their Christian founding fathers knew the effects of concentrated power, and hence introduced a Bill of Rights. In Australia our "Rights" are merely inferred. While do gooder judges in the US try to erode the Bill of Rights (and they have a hard time doing so), we actually don't have any.
Terrorism laws should not come into effect without some guarantee of a Bill of Rights for citizens. When I say Bill of Rights - I mean the US example and not the EU version. In the EU version there is fine print basically saying "you have these rights so long as they don't go against 'the EU'. Whereas the US ones are solely based upon the individual, NOT individual rights via the State approval (as in the EU), which is not a Bill of rights at all.
Hence in the coming war, while it will relegate the US to a "once" superpower, they will come out of it much better than the EU, or Australia in terms of individual rights v.’s the State.
I think anyone - be they Muslim or otherwise, should have the right to question WHY they were arrested. In Australia, we have already got some Humanist type laws that mimic the French legal system - that is you are GUILTY until proven innocent (eg Aust's Hate and Vilification laws where truth is not a defense, sex discrimination and harassment laws where the onus is on the individual to prove innocence rather than on the State to prove guilt).
Thomas whatever laws do come into effect in NZ, those laws MUST keep the premise of "Guilty Until Proven Innocent". This might be hard to achieve as the French legal system is much more profitable for lawyers than the English version of "Guilty until proven otherwise".
We dumb Australians will use your NZ law as precedent - as we do with Brit, and US laws also.
Sorry I can't really help you - its not my area of expertise. Sorry about the late reply - I was at work yesterday while posting - so I couldn't get back to you.
All the best for today in the NZ Parliment.