Still breathing threats and murder. From AFP, with thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist:
DUBAI - The group of Al Qaeda's Iraq leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi has denied US charges that it used human shields in fighting with US forces but vowed more attacks against the Americans, according to a statement posted on the Internet Wednesday."They accuse our mujahedeen (holy warriors) of using human shields. But you are deceiving yourselves, worshippers of the cross... Wasn't it the Americans who used women and children as shields in Fallujah?" said the statement, whose authenticity could not be verified.
The US military waged a major assault on Fallujah in November in a bid to oust rebels from the city west of Baghdad.
"Our mujahedeen rush to death... they want to die as much as you care to live," added the statement, signed by the Al Qaeda Organization in the Land of Two Rivers.
The US military said Monday that insurgents used patients as human shields in a weekend battle in a hospital in Hadithah, 260 kilometers (150 miles) northwest of Baghdad, that left four US troops dead....
In the statement, the group vowed more attacks by its "martyrdom-seekers" against US forces in western Iraq....
"Dozens of Americans, even more than 100, have been killed," the statement said, adding that its fighters were pursuing their "jihad and delivering blows to God's enemies."...
"One of the lions of the martyrdom-seeking brigade carried out a heroic operation against a police post on Abu Nawas street Tuesday, hitting several of the guardians of the Jews and Crusaders," it said.
"Jews and Crusaders." I.e., "Remember when we beat those Crusaders? Wasn't it great? Come on, let's recover our former glories..."
“Our mujahedeen rush to death... they want to die as much as you care to live,” added the statement, signed by the Al Qaeda Organization in the Land of Two Rivers.
I have no problem with such Islamo-babble. These fine people are merely "misunderstanders" of the true Islam. Which is all about the peace that Muhammad preached his entire life. Of course sometimes Mo' had to wield his bloody sword to defend the ummah. His wars were all defensive wars say the nice and moderate Muslims.
____________
Chronology of early Islam
Notice how closely Islam's inception is associated with war. From 623 to 777, a span of 154 years, there are 83 military conflicts involving the Muslims...and that is just what I have recorded here. Is Islam a religion of peace? Muslims tell me it is. But....
570 - Birth of Muhammad in Mecca into the tribe of Quraish.
577 - Muhammad's mother dies
580 - Death of Abdul Muttalib, Muhammad's grandfather.
583 - First journey to Syria with a trading Caravan
595 - Muhammad marries Khadijah a rich widow several years older than him.
595 - Second journey to Syra
598 - His son, Qasim, is born
600 - His daughter, Zainab, is born
603 - His daughter, Um-e-Kalthum, is born
604 - His daughter, Ruqayya, is born
605 - Placement of Black Stone in Ka'aba.
605 - His daughter, Fatima, is born
610 - Mohammed, in a cave on Mt. Hira, hears the angel Gabriel tell him that
Allah is the only true God.
613 - Muhammad's first public preaching of Islam at Mt. Hira. Gets few converts.
615 - Muslims persecuted by the Quraish.
619 - Marries Sau'da and Aisha
620 - Institution of five daily prayers
622 - Muhammad immigrates from Mecca to Medina, which was then called Yathrib, gets
more converts.
623 - Battle of Waddan
623 - Battle of Safwan
623 - Battle of Dul-'Ashir
624 - Muhammad and converts begin raids on caravans to fund the movement.
624 - Zakat becomes mandatory
624 - Battle of Badr
624 - Battle of Bani Salim
624 - Battle of Eid-ul-Fitr and Zakat-ul-Fitr
624 - Battle of Bani Qainuqa'
624 - Battle of Sawiq
624 - Battle of Ghatfan
624 - Battle of Bahran
625 - Battle of Uhud. 70 Muslims are killed.
625 - Battle of Humra-ul-Asad
625 - Battle of Banu Nudair
625 - Battle of Dhatur-Riqa
626 - Battle of Badru-Ukhra
626 - Battle of Dumatul-Jandal
626 - Battle of Banu Mustalaq Nikah
627 - Battle of the Trench
627 - Battle of Ahzab
627 - Battle of Bani Quraiza
627 - Battle of Bani Lahyan
627 - Battle of Ghaiba
627 - Battle of Khaibar
628 - Muhammad signs treaty with Quraish.
630 - Muhammad conquers Mecca.
630 - Battle of Hunsin.
630 - Battle of Tabuk
632 - Muhammad dies.
632 - Abu-Bakr, Muhammad's father-in-law, along with Umar, begin a military move to
enforce Islam in Arabia.
633 - Battle at Oman
633 - Battle at Hadramaut.
633 - Battle of Kazima
633 - Battle of Walaja
633 - Battle of Ulleis
633 - Battle of Anbar
634 - Battle of Basra,
634 - Battle of Damascus
634 - Battle of Ajnadin.
634 - Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph.
634 - Battle of Namaraq
634 - Battle of Saqatia.
635 - Battle of Bridge.
635 - Battle of Buwaib.
635 - Conquest of Damascus.
635 - Battle of Fahl.
636 - Battle of Yermuk.
636 - Battle of Qadsiyia.
636 - Conquest of Madain.
637 - Battle of Jalula.
638 - Battle of Yarmouk.
638 - The Muslims defeat the Romans and enter Jerusalem.
638 - Conquest of Jazirah.
639 - Conquest of Khuizistan and movement into Egypt.
641 - Battle of Nihawand
642 - Battle of Rayy in Persia
643 - Conquest of Azarbaijan
644 - Conquest of Fars
644 - Conquest of Kharan.
644 - Umar is murdered. Othman becomes the Caliph.
647 - Conquest of the island of Cypress
644 - Uman dies and is succeeded by Caliph Uthman.
648 - Campaign against the Byzantines.
651 - Naval battle against the Byzantines.
654 - Islam spreads into North Africa
656 - Uthman is murdered. Ali become Caliph.
658 - Battle of Nahrawan.
659 - Conquest of Egypt
661 - Ali is murdered.
662 - Egypt falls to Islam rule.
666 - Sicily is attacked by Muslims
677 - Siege of Constantinople
687 - Battle of Kufa
691 - Battle of Deir ul Jaliq
700 - Sufism takes root as a sect of Islam
700 - Military campaigns in North Africa
702 - Battle of Deir ul Jamira
711 - Muslims invade Gibraltar
711 - Conquest of Spain
713 - Conquest of Multan
716 - Invasion of Constantinople
732 - Battle of Tours in France.
740 - Battle of the Nobles.
741 - Battle of Bagdoura in North Africa
744 - Battle of Ain al Jurr.
746 - Battle of Rupar Thutha
748 - Battle of Rayy.
749 - Battle of lsfahan
749 - Battle of Nihawand
750 - Battle of Zab
772 - Battle of Janbi in North Africa
777 - Battle of Saragossa in Spain
The chronology above deepens my intuition that the people in the middle east suffer from some kind of deep physical-mental trauma. Perhaps it is even complicated by the lack of enjoyment that the trauma results in.
Otherwise, how can one explain century after century of tumoil and violence the people of middle east have been undergoing.
So, in this case, jihad is defensive against Occupiers and their collaborators. What's new?
And dennisw, nice chronology. Would you care to also give us the breakdown on how many of these were defensive wars?
Yes, Robert, it's sad they have to harken back to the Crusades, but then it's pretty tough when the more recent record is one that either requires the assistance of the evil western powers (to vanquish the Soviets from Afghanistan and put down the Serbs in Bosnia) or defeat at the hands of a vastly outnumbered Israel.
Dennisw~ I have emailed the gentleman who created that chart of the early days of islam. I suggested he create a comparison page, of the first 200 years of Christianity.
I suspect it will read quite a bit differently.
*is back out the door*
argh! One more minute:
Shukri, these are for you, not that will acknowledge any of it:
http://answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv2.html
http://keithdevens.com/weblog/archive/2003/Nov/24/History.Crusades
http://www.intervarsity.org/ism/article_item.php?article_id=121
I dont think Islam has ever had a really defensive war...that is, when Islam has been attacked for no reason at all...Islam is the original intruder and trouble maker...Islam continues to cause trouble...If islam has suffered any "wars of defense", it is because their victims can sometimes mount a counter offensive...Plus, you can argue that all wars are wars of defense...even the agressors are defending themselves...
The reference to "cross worshippers" and jews, confirms that this guy thinks that he is in a religious war and thinks his enemies are enemies of Allah...aint it great to have God on your side??? or whatever it is....
Gary you know this but
The URL source of Muhammad's and Caliph's wars is:
http://www.carm.org/islam/islam_chronology.htm
The simplicity of the mentality demonstrated on this board never ceases to amaze me. Anything that demonizes Islam seems to automatically be accepted without much fact checking. Quotes taken out of context, guilt by association, errors of fact, and innuendo seems to be the norm. Truly amazing...
Shuggi: You just can't help yourself in your propaganda-effort, if only the facts wouldn't get in the way:
"The Quran teaches that Muslims are to never initiate war. All wars on the part of Muslims are to be defensive wars. Here is how this works: A Muslim, as is his duty, offers you an opportunity to become a Muslim. If you refuse, you have committed aggression against God and against Islam. Therefore, because you are now an aggressor, you must be fought against until you are subdued and feel yourself subdued and pay the punitive poll tax (Quran 9:30) or you must be killed.
To say that Islam is a religion of peace is a great deception. It is not. Of the current 30 wars going on in the world today, 28 involve Muslim countries or communities (Amir Tahiri, editor of Politique International – based in Paris). All of them are a result of Islam seeking to impose itself on non-Muslims or one form of Islam seeking to impose itself on another form."
-------
“Our mujahedeen rush to death... they want to die as much as you care to live,” added the statement, signed by the Al Qaeda Organization in the Land of Two Rivers.
Give them what they want! Why are we holding back? Why are we not cleaning up like we could,- like we should? Because we have 'embedded' reporters in drag, who sell our boys out as 'killers?' I havea problem with that.
How to deal with coffee-filters:
http://www.grouchyoldcripple.com/archives/001726.html
You can "deliver blows" all you want... I think the Marines there would prefer that your wives and daughters do it, though. LOL.
So.
The mujahedeen are rushing to death. Make that SOME mujahedeen.
Zarqawi is, as yet, not among that esteemed group. What's he waiting for. He's had plenty of opportunity to join his gullible comrades in Paradise.
Maybe he knows something they don't.
Zarqawi may not be cannon fodder, but he's still a sucker for the SOBs who are doubtless syphoning off a hefty share of the "charity" raised in the name of the cause.
Sounds like he is cracking under the strain
"The jihadis asked no quarter and the Marines gave them none. According to The March Up: Taking Baghdad with the 1st Marine Division by "Bing" West and Major General Ray "E-tool" Smith, USMC (ret), The Marines knew the difference between these jihad fighters and the militia. Consequently the Marines shot them in the ditches and in the field. They threw grenades into the bulrushes and shot the fighters when they ran out. They threw grenades into the drainage pipes running under the road... A few of the foreign fighters surrendered, but most did not — they had come to Iraq to die, and die they would. As one Marine put it, this was the perfect war. "They want to die, and we want to kill them."
"They want to die, and we want to kill them."
That may be my favorite military quote of all time.
Your time is coming, Zarqawi. I hope it is slow, humiliating and extremely painful.
Zarqawi is, as yet,... to join his gullible comrades in Paradise.
This really speaks to the utter stupidity (regardless of their level of education) of the Islamic Jihadist to follow these men who tickle their ears with talk of virgins, glory, and paradise but who obviously think all they are good for is a cheap weapon delivery system.
Zarqawi and his kind are enemies of their own people, using them like they were 'things' and not human beings. And then these fools have the gall to be offended to the point of riot when someone mistreats a copy of the Koran. Stupid is just too weak a word for this.
f.g.
Terminator, I loved those shots. Have a klr 650 to get on the road to Rio soon. Hope someday to own a Barrett .50. Nice shots.
SOME HAVE ASKED WERE THE NAZIS WITH THE MULISUMS WELL HERE IS A LITTLE HISTORY LESSON AND THE SIGHTS HAVE LOTS OF PICTURES TOO!!!
REMEMBER PUTTING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND WILL ONLY GET YOUR BUTT SHOT OFF~!!!!
http://www.israel-wat.com/g8_eng.htm
FROM THEN TO NOW??
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/851163/posts
The Nazification of the Palestinian Arabs: Arafat's, Saddam's historical ties to Hitler
Tuesday, February 25, 2003 | by Chuck Morse
Posted on 02/25/2003 1:24:24 AM PST by JohnHuang2
The Nazification of the Palestinian Arabs didn't begin with the most recent suicide-bombing pogrom against the Jews of Israel. The process began in 1921 when Herbert Samuels, the British Mandatory Governor of Palestine, appointed Amin al-Husseini as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. The Mufti would proceed to literally introduce Hitler's National Socialism into Palestine and much of the rest of the Arab world.
Al-Husseini had previously been an Ottoman officer when, upon arriving in Palestine in 1920, he played a major role in organizing riots against Jews. Al-Husseini also launched an assassination campaign against Muslims who refused to submit to his control.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_riots_1920-21.php
Haj Amin al-Husseini emerged as one of the leaders of the 1920 Arab riots in Palestine and incited the masses to murder Jews and loot their homes. While only in his late twenties, he became the youngest ever Mufti of Jerusalem in 1921, supported by the British.
The riots were investigated by the Haycraft Commission, who said in their summary report:
• The racial strife was begun by the Arabs, and rapidly developed into a conflict of great violence between Arabs and Jews, in which the Arab majority, who were generally the aggressors, inflicted most of the casualties.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_whitepaper_1922.php
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_transjordan.php
How did the Arab territory of Transjordan come into being?
According to Sir Alec Kirkbride, the British representative in the area, Transjordan was:
• ... intended to serve as a reserve of land for use in the resettlement of Arabs once the National Home for the Jews in Palestine, which [Britain was] pledged to support, became an accomplished fact. There was no intention at that stage of forming the territory east of the River Jordan into an independent Arab state.
In 1925, the British added 60,000 sq. km. of desert to eastern Transjordan forming an "arm" of land to connect Transjordan with Iraq and to cut Syria off from the Arabian Peninsula. The British continued to favor exclusive Arab development east of the Jordan River by enacting restrictive regulations against the Jews, even when Arab leaders sought Jewish involvement in the development of Transjordan.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_ww1_british_mandate_jordan.php
Why was almost 80% of the Mandate territory of Palestine given to Arab Jordan?
The British underwent a change of heart about the establishment of the Palestine Mandate. The reasons were related to political developments that had taken place in the region between 1920 and 1922. The result was that Abdullah, an Arab from the Hejaz (now Saudi Arabia), was abruptly installed as the Emir of Transjordan by the British. In a British memorandum presented to the League of Nations on 16 September 1922, it was declared that the provisions of the Mandate document calling for the establishment of a Jewish national home were not applicable to the territory known as Transjordan (today called Jordan), thereby severing almost 80% of the Mandate land from any possible Jewish Homeland.
The world seems to have plunged into historical amnesia about this. Most people somehow forgot that Arab claims towards Palestine were already satisfied once. It is the Jews and not the Arabs who suffered from the "game" that was played between the Great Powers after World War I. International lawyer David Fromkin described these events in his book A Peace To End All Peace. Fromkin wrote:
• Britain feared that if Arabs from the territory of British Palestine were to attack the French in Syria, France would retaliate by invading British Palestine.
Thus, Winston Churchill opted for a "Hashemite solution." He decided to "buy off [Prince] Abdullah: to offer him a position in Transjordan." Churchill brought a memorandum to the March, 1921 Cairo Conference, which envisaged:
• ... establishing a Jewish National Home in Palestine west of the Jordan and a separate Arab entity in Palestine east of the Jordan. Abdullah, if installed in authority in Transjordan, could preside over the creation of such an Arab entity.
Churchill disregarded important objections that "since Transjordan had been included by the League of Nations in the territory of [mandated] Palestine, it was not open to Britain unilaterally to separate it from the rest of Palestine." In order to silence Churchill's opponents, Britain accepted a "compromise concept of Transjordan: while preserving the Arab character of area and administration to treat it as an Arab province or adjunct of Palestine."
It is important to indicate that the British Colonial Office regarded "the administrative separation of Transjordan as a merely provisional measure. It [was] decided not to allow Zionism in Transjordan for the present but also not to bar the door against it for all time." As it often happens, the temporary arrangement "hardened into an enduring political reality and the Arabian prince became a permanent factor of the Palestine Mandatory regime."
Therefore, 76% of the country was given "to an Arab dynasty that was not Palestinian. The newly created province of Transjordan, later to become the independent state of Jordan, gradually drifted into existence as an entity separate from the rest of Palestine; indeed, today it is often forgotten that Jordan was ever part of Palestine."
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_jewish_forces.php
What is the history of the Jewish Armed Forces in Mandate Palestine?
The following narrative was primarily adapted from the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs article From Hashomer to the Israel Defense Forces: Armed Jewish Defense in Palestine by Me'ir Pa'il, Ph.D., the academic director of the Galili Center for Defense-"Haganah" Studies.
Before the British Mandate
From the time the modern Jewish community in Palestine (the new yishuv) became an entity following the first and second aliyot (waves of immigration) - from 1870 until the outbreak of World War I in 1914 - every Jewish town, neighborhood, moshava (village), farm, moshav and kvutza (cooperative and collective settlements, respectively), faced the necessity of protecting itself. At the time, protection was necessary mainly against local Arab thieves, individuals and organized gangs.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_ww1_jewish_role.php
What role did the Jewish population play in World War I?
The Zionist cause was bolstered by Chaim Weizmann's professional work. As head of the British Admiralty Laboratories from 1917 to 1919, Dr. Weizmann developed a process for the manufacture of synthetic acetone at a time when the British needed it desperately. He isolated certain organisms found in cereals and horse chestnuts and within a month had created synthetic acetone for British explosives. Near the end of the war the British Prime Minister, Lloyd George (a Christian Zionist), offered Weitzman an award for his assistance in the war effort. In a classic statement, Weitzman declared, "I want nothing for myself but rather a homeland for my people." This was the impetus for the Balfour Declaration.
http://www.dangoor.com/72page23.html
Assisted by the British with gold, arms and munitions and supplies, the Sharif proclaimed himself King of the Hejaz. His armies led by his sons the Amirs Ali, Faisal, Abdullah and Zaid, and supported by Colonel Lawrence of Arabia and other British and French officers, defeated the Turks in the desert, and freed the Hejaz from Turkish domination, and, with General Allenby's armies, penetrated into Syria and raised his banners in Damascus and Aleppo in October 1918.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_riots_1929.php
What happened during the Arab riots of 1929?
From 1922 through 1928 the relationship between Jews and Arabs in Palestine was relatively peaceful. However, in late 1928 a new phase of violence began with minor disputes between Jews and Arabs about the right of Jews to pray at the Western Wall (Kotel) in Jerusalem. These arguments led to an outbreak of Arab violence in August 1929 when Haj Amin al-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem, fomented Arab hatred by accusing the Jews of endangering the mosques and other sites holy to Islam. Observers heard Husseini issue the call: Itback al-Yahud "Slaughter the Jews!"
THIS IS REAL HISTORY MULSUMS IN FLAMED TO KILL THEIR NEIGHBORS WHO THEY KNEW TO BE GOOD PEOPLE??
On Friday, August 23, Arab mobs attacked Jews in Jerusalem, Motza, Hebron, Safed, Jaffa, and other parts of the country. The Old City of Jerusalem was hit particularly hard. By the next day, the Haganah was able to mount a defense and further attacks in Jerusalem were repulsed. But, the violence in Jerusalem generated rumors throughout the country, many carrying fabricated accounts of Jewish attempts to defile Muslim holy places, all to inflame the Arab residents. Villages were plundered and destroyed by Arab mobs. While attacks on Jews in Tel Aviv and Haifa were thwarted by Jewish defenses, there were Jewish deaths in Hebron, where 67 Jewish men and women were slaughtered and Safed, where 18 Jews were killed, as well as scattered other losses totaling 133 Jewish deaths, with more than 300 wounded.
The Arab violence in Hebron was one of the worst atrocities in the modern history of Israel. On the afternoon of Friday, August 23, 1929 Jerusalem Arabs came to Hebron with false reports of Jews murdering Arabs during the rioting there, even saying thousands of Arabs had been killed. Despite the fact that Jews and Arabs in Hebron had been on good terms, a mass of frenzied Arab rioters formed and proceeded to the Hebron Yeshiva where a lone student was murdered. The next day, the Jewish Sabbath, the killing continued as an Arab mob of hundreds surrounded homes where Jews sought refuge, broke in and murdered scores of Jews in a bloody rampage.
NOW MULSUMS NO LONGER HAVE THEIR EYES ON ONLY JEWISH LAND BUT YOURS!! WE SEE THIS ALL OVER THE WORLD TODAY IN AFRICA THILAND PHILLIPPINES EVEN IN EUROPE WHEN WILL YOU SAY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH LEST NOT WE FORGET RUSSIA CHILDREN RAPED SHOOT IN THE BACK IN IRAQ THEY WILL EVEN KILL MULSUMS TO FUTHER THEIR GREED!!!
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_shaw_1929.php
What was the Shaw Commission in 1929-1930?
The 1929 Arab riots in Palestine triggered another British Commission of Inquiry. In this instance, Sir Walter Shaw chaired the four member Commission, which visited the area and delivered its report in March, 1930.
The principle findings of the Shaw Commission were:
• The violence occurred due to "racial animosity on the part of the Arabs,
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_hope_simpson.php
Although Hope-Simpson concluded that Jewish immigration and land ownership was negatively impacting the Arab population and should stop, it is difficult to see how the available facts supported that conclusion. Statements in the Hope-Simpson report itself and other sources, outside the Hope-Simspon report, are supportive of the Zionist position and not the Commission's conclusions or the restrictive British immigration policy that followed:
• The Hope-Simpson Commission report said the British practice of ignoring the uncontrolled illegal Arab immigration from Egypt, Transjordan and Syria had the effect of displacing the prospective Jewish immigrants.
• Hope-Simpson is quoted as saying, "They [Jews] paid high prices for the land, and in addition they paid to certain of the occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay."
• Many issues were raised about Hope-Simpson's methodology, in particular the land surveys he used to reach his conclusions. Among the issues criticized were air vs. land-based cultivatable land analysis, mistakes in interpretation due to harvesting of crops just prior to the survey, ambiguities in the process of land acquisition, the vague status of some state lands, and Zionist compensation to squatters which was not legally required. In these and other cases, Hope-Simpson seems to have always drawn pro-Arab conclusions even when the supporting facts were less than complete or solidly based.
• The British Governor of the Sinai from 1922-36 observed: "This illegal immigration was not only going on from the Sinai, but also from Transjordan and Syria, and it is very difficult to make a case out for the misery of the Arabs if at the same time their compatriots from adjoining states could not be kept from going in to share that misery."
• Transjordan's King Abdullah, in his memoirs, says: "It is made quite clear to all, both by the map drawn up by the Simpson Commission and by another compiled by the Peel Commission, that the Arabs are as prodigal in selling their land as they are in useless wailing and weeping"
• In 1931, Lewis French, the British Director of Development for Palestine, conducted a survey of landlessness. He eventually offered new plots to any Arabs who had been "dispossessed." British officials received more than 3,000 applications, of which 80 percent were ruled invalid by the Government's legal adviser because the applicants were not landless Arabs. This left only about 600 landless Arabs, 100 of whom accepted the Government land offer. (Report on Agricultural Development and Land Settlement in Palestine by Lewis French, (December 1931, Supplementary; Report, April 1932) and material submitted to the Palestine Royal Commission.)
WHY DO YOU THINK WHEN THE MULSUMS RAID A PLACE IT IS TO DESTROY ALL RECORD OF WHAT IS THE TRUTH LIKE THAT LIBIARY IN GERMANY WITH ALL THE HISTORY OF CHRISTIANS??
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Archaeology/keys.html
Now, eight centuries later, the 10-inch metal key is still safeguarded in the house of the Joudeh family. Every morning at dawn, Wajeeh Nuseibeh, who took over the job of doorkeeper from his father 20 years ago, picks up the key and opens the massive wooden church doors. Every night at 8:00 p.m. he returns to shut and lock them.
Muslim control of the key, however, does not mean Muslim control of the Church. Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Armenian Orthodox groups share the main control of the church, while the Ethiopian, Egyptian Copt and Syrian churches still maintain a presence. Christian sects have, for centuries, guarded their corners of the shrine.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_riots_1936-39.php
What happened during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39?
In April 1936, riots broke out in Jaffa commencing a three-year period of violence and civil strife in Palestine that is known as the Arab Revolt. The Arab Higher Committee, headed by the Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini, led the campaign of terrorism against Jewish and British targets.
The strike quickly led to a campaign of terror against Jewish people and lands. Seventeen Jews were killed the first day, with little action by the British to stop the rioters. Sparked by the Mufti's agitators, armed bands of Arab terrorists attacked Jewish villages and vehicles, as well as British Army and police forces. By August 1936, responding more to attacks on British assets than to the Jewish losses, the British began a military crack-down on the Arab terrorists.
NOW WE GET TO OUR GUY WHO WAS WITH THE GERMANS TRYING TO MESS WITH THE BRITS SO THE ARABS WERE BACKED BY HITLER??
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_ww1_british_mandate.php
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_name_origin.php
Where did the name Palestine come from?
The name Palestine refers to a region of the eastern Mediterranean coast from the sea to the Jordan valley and from the southern Negev desert to the Galilee lake region in the north. The word itself derives from "Plesheth", a name that appears frequently in the Bible and has come into English as "Philistine". Plesheth, (root palash) was a general term meaning rolling or migratory. This referred to the Philistine's invasion and conquest of the coast from the sea. The Philistines were not Arabs nor even Semites, they were most closely related to the Greeks originating from Asia Minor and Greek localities. They did not speak Arabic. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs.
SOME GOOD READING FOR THOSE WHO NEED A REMINDER!!
From the fifth century BC, following the historian Herodotus, Greeks called the eastern coast of the Mediterranean "the Philistine Syria" using the Greek language form of the name. In AD 135, after putting down the Bar Kochba revolt, the second major Jewish revolt against Rome, the Emperor Hadrian wanted to blot out the name of the Roman "Provincia Judaea" and so renamed it "Provincia Syria Palaestina", the Latin version of the Greek name and the first use of the name as an administrative unit. The name "Provincia Syria Palaestina" was later shortened to Palaestina, from which the modern, anglicized "Palestine" is derived.
WOW HO MY!!
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_during_ww2.php
In the 1930s, the fascist regimes that arose in Italy and Germany sought greater stakes in the Middle East, and began courting Arab leaders to revolt against their British and French custodians. Among their many willing accomplices was Jerusalem Mufti Haj Amin el-Husseini, who fled Palestine after agitating against the British during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39. He found refuge in Iraq – another British mandate – where he again topped the British most wanted list after helping pull the strings behind the Iraqi coup of 1941. The revolt in Baghdad was orchestrated by Hitler as part of a strategy to squeeze the region between the pincers of Rommel's troops in North Africa, German forces in the Caucuses and pro-Nazi forces in Iraq. However, in June 1941 British troops put down the rebellion and the Mufti escaped via Tehran to Italy and eventually to Berlin.
Once in Berlin, the Mufti received an enthusiastic reception by the "Islamische Zentralinstitut" and the whole Islamic community of Germany, which welcomed him as the "Führer of the Arabic world." In an introductory speech, he called the Jews the "most fierce enemies of the Muslims" and an "ever corruptive element" in the world.
Husseini soon became an honored guest of the Nazi leadership and met on several occasions with Hitler. He personally lobbied the Führer against the plan to let Jews leave Hungary, fearing they would immigrate to Palestine. He also strongly intervened when Adolf Eichman tried to cut a deal with the British government to exchange German POWs for 5000 Jewish children who also could have fled to Palestine. The Mufti's protests with the SS were successful, as the children were sent to death camps in Poland instead. One German officer noted in his journals that the Mufti would liked to have seen the Jews "preferably all killed." On a visit to Auschwitz, he reportedly admonished the guards running the gas chambers to work more diligently. Throughout the war, he appeared regularly on German radio broadcasts to the Middle East, preaching his pro-Nazi, anti-Semitic message to the Arab masses back home.
During the Second World War in Yugoslavia, many Muslim clerics in Bosnia and Kosovo were willing accomplices in the genocide of the nation's Serbian, Jewish and Roma population. From 1941 until 1945, the Nazi-installed regime of Ante Pavelic in Croatia carried out some of the most horrific crimes of the Holocaust, killing over 800,000 Yugoslav citizens - 750,000 Serbs, 60,000 Jews and 26,000 Roma. In these crimes, they were helped by Muslim fundamentalists in Bosnia and Kosovo who were openly supported by the Palestinian Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini. Husseini openly encouraged Muslims to join Nazi units that would be later implicated in genocide and crimes against humanity - the infamous Hanjar (or Handschar) 13th Waffen SS division.
OH MY!
Husseini represents the prevalent pro-Nazi posture among the Arab/Muslim world before, during and even after the Holocaust. The Nazi-Arab connection existed even when Adolf Hitler first seized power in Germany in 1933. News of the Nazi takeover was welcomed by the Arab masses with great enthusiasm, as the first congratulatory telegrams Hitler received upon being appointed Chancellor came from the German Consul in Jerusalem, followed by those from several Arab capitals. Soon afterwards, parties that imitated the National Socialists were founded in many Arab lands, like the "Hisb-el-qaumi-el-suri" (PPS) or Social Nationalist Party in Syria. Its leader, Anton Sa'ada, styled himself the Führer of the Syrian nation, and Hitler became known as "Abu Ali" (In Egypt his name was "Muhammed Haidar"). The banner of the PPS displayed the swastika on a black-white background. Later, a Lebanese branch of the PPS – which still receives its orders from Damascus – was involved in the assassination of Lebanese President Pierre Gemayel.
SO WHAT IS THE MULSUMS ALWAYS SAY ABOUT HILTER BEING CHRISTIAN DOESN’T SOUND THAT WAY TO ME??
The most influential party that emulated the Nazis was "Young Egypt," which was founded in October 1933. They had storm troopers, torch processions, and literal translations of Nazi slogans – like "One folk, One party, One leader." Nazi anti-Semitism was replicated, with calls to boycott Jewish businesses and physical attacks on Jews. Britain had a bitter experience with this pro-German mood in Egypt, when the official Egyptian government failed to declare war on the Wehrmacht as German troops were about to conquer Alexandria.
HMMM NOT LOOKING GOOD TO ME??
After the war, a member of Young Egypt named Gamal Abdul Nasser was among the officers who led the July 1952 revolution in Egypt. Their first act – following in Hitler's footsteps – was to outlaw all other parties. Nasser's Egypt became a safe haven for Nazi war criminals, among them the SS General in charge of the murder of Ukrainian Jewry; he became Nasser's bodyguard and close comrade. Alois Brunner, another senior Nazi war criminal, found shelter in Damascus, where he served for many years as senior adviser to the Syrian general staff and still resides today.
WOW WHAT A WEB THEY HAVE WEAVED??
The PLO and notably Arafat himself do not make a secret of their source of inspiration. The Grand Mufti el-Husseini is venerated as a hero by the PLO. It should be noted, that the PLO's top figure in east Jerusalem today, Faisal Husseini, is the grandson to the Führer's Mufti. Arafat also considers the Grand Mufti a respected educator and leader, and in 1985 declared it an honor to follow in his footsteps. Little wonder. In 1951, a close relative of the Mufti named Rahman Abdul Rauf el-Qudwa el-Husseini matriculated to the University of Cairo. The student decided to conceal his true identity and enlisted as "Yasser Arafat."
SO THEY DO FOLLOW THE DEVIL!!
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/print.php3?what=article&id=1726
Arabs Recognized Israel - 1919
by Chuck Morse
December 20, 2002
Feisal accepted the British Balfour Declaration of Nov. 2, 1917, which afforded recognition to a Jewish national homeland, and agreed with the Zionist delegation, stating, "All such measures shall be adopted as we afford the fullest guarantee of carrying into effect the British Government's Balfour Declaration." Emir Feisal confirmed this determination in a March 3, 1919 letter to Harvard Law Professor, and later US Supreme Court Justice, Felix Frankfurter, to whom he wrote: "Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted by the Zionist organization to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as modest and proper. We will do our best, insofar as we are concerned, to help them through. We will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home."
In exchange for Arab recognition of Israel, the Allied powers, in 1919, agreed to the eventual sovereignty of almost 20 Arab states, covering vast oil-rich lands, after a period of mandatory oversight by European powers. The Europeans would proceed to draw the borders of their respective mandates and, in essence, create the system of Arab states that would emerge out of the remnants of the old Turkish Ottoman Empire. In 1922, a couple of years after the Conference, in a land for peace deal, the British would split Mandatory Palestine into an Arab and a Jewish Mandate using the Jordan River as the line of demarcation. The Arabs were granted East Palestine, or Transjordan, which would later become Arab Jordan while West Palestine, or Cis-Jordan, would become the Jewish National homeland of Israel.
SO ONCE AGAIN WE HAVE SEEN THE MULSUMS LIE AND TRY TO STEAL LAND NOT THEIRS!! THEY SIGN A TREADY GET WHAT THEY WANT THEN BREAK THE TREADY WHY ARE WE THE WEST PUTTING UP WITH THIS SH-T!!!!!!!!!!! MAYBE IT IS TIME TO TURN ABOUT IS FAIR PLAY!!
REMEMBER PUTTING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND WILL JUST GET YOUR BUTT SHOT OFF!!!
http://www.terrorismanswers.org/causes/muslim.html
Causes of 9/11:
Muslim Militant Extremists?
Was there a religious motive behind the September 11 attacks?
Yes
http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/006.shtml
The Holocaust in Bosnia-Hercegovina, 1941-1945
by Carl K. Savich
World War I began in Bosnia, one of the bloodiest and most horrific wars in the history of mankind, ushering in the twentieth century. The Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78Ýsprang from the 1875 insurrection in Bosnia-Hercegovina. During World War II, Bosnia-Hercegovina was one of the bloodiest battlefields of the war and of the Holocaust.
HELLO THAT’S MULSUMS AGAINST CHRISTIANS??
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Victory[FREEDOM] to Destroy ALL islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Let NOT the World be Deceived by them Amen
PS
See Tommy Boy is a little worried saying that people are not being nice to mulsums well last time I looked it was Churches Buring not mosques??
Hi Catherine:
"See Tommy Boy is a little worried saying that people are not being nice to mulsums well last time I looked it was Churches Buring not mosques??"
Not exactly Catherine. I am not worried that people are not being nice to Muslims. In fact it is undestandable that some non-Muslims hold Islam in contempt. In my mind, Islamophobia does not exist, and if it does it is justified becaus Muslims have remained silent for 1400 years.
I am worried however that some posters on this site fail to distinguish between peaceful Muslims and violent Muslims. I appreciate that it is not always easy to tell, but nonetheless such distinguishment should be strived for.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Your ignorance is frightening. This is only in the case of a Muslim state that is warring against aggressors who threaten their security or the security of those allied with the Muslims. They are given a choice between voluntarily converting to Islam and paying Jizya, which is a tax that helps pay for the Armed Forces of the Muslim State as well as some social services that are provided to Muslims and non-Muslims alike, or they will be fought to prevent their aggression. Women, children, old people and the handicapped do not pay jizyah. And "being subdued" means recognizing the authority of the Muslim State and not revolting against the State. Just as I subdued myself to the USA government this past April 15th.
TOMMY
WE ARE FIGHTING WITH THE PEACEFUL MULSUMS LOOK AT IRAQIS AND AFGHANS EVERY DAY THEY FIGHT SIDE BY SIDE WITH US IT IS YOUR SLINECE TODAY THAT MAKES PEOPLE THINK YOU SIDE WITH THE MONSTER ISLAMIC TERRORIST!!!
LIKE I SAID CHURCHES BURNING AND WE CAN'T HEAR YOU YOU PLAY A GAME THAT IS NOT GOOD WE SEE THROUGH YOU NOW!!!
MORE ISLAMIC TERRORIST DEAD TODAY!!
WE ARE GOING TO DO WHAT WE RUSSIANS DID TO MUFFIES ARMY!!!
OH YEA THE IRAQIS WOULD NOT PLAY WITH THIS GUY AND FOUGHT AGAINST HIM!!!
http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/022.shtml
Islam Under the Swastika
The Grand Mufti and the Nazi Protectorate of Bosnia-Hercegovina, 1941-1945
From the beginning of the German invasion of Yugoslavia, the Bosnian Muslims had sought to convince the Germans that Bosnia-Hercegovina should be a Nazi Protectorate, that is, have an autonomous political existence, a Greater Islamic Bosnia, a Greater Muslim State. In 1941, over 100,000 Bosnian Muslim conscripts were available to fight in the military formations of the Third Reich. Roman Catholic Croatian and Bosnian Muslim soldiers were in the Ustasha death squads, the Domobranci (Home Guards), and the Croatian Army.
Bosnian Muslim soldiers were in the Nazi-Ustasha German-Croatian ìLegionî units, the 369th, 373rd, and 392nd Infantry Divisions. The 369th German-Croatian Infantry Division, formed in 1942, was known as the Vrazja Divizija or Devil Division commanded by Generalleutnant Fritz Neidholt. The 373rd German-Croatian Infantry Division was known as the Tigar Divizija or Tiger Division. The 392nd German-Croatian Infantry Division was known as the Plava Divizija, or Blue Division.Ý The 369th Reinforced Croat Infantry Regiment, made up of Croats and Bosnian Muslims, fought at Stalingrad where it was destroyed. The NDH also sent the Italian-Croat Legion, attached to the Italian 3rd Mobile Division, to the Russian front where it was destroyed during the Don retreat. The 369th Reinforced Infantry Regiment, formed at Varazdin, consisted of three battalions, two from Croatia, one from Sarajevo. The Regiment left Zagreb on July 15, 1941 for the Doellersheim Training Camp near Vienna, Austria. From here, the troops were transferred by railroad to the USSR. The Regiment was deployed on various points on the Russian Front: Krementchug, Jasy, Kirovograd, Permomaysk, Poltava, the Dnieper River, Kharkov, Stalino. On May 15, 1942, the Regiment was deployed on the Voronezh Front. On September 27, the Bosnian Muslim/Croat troops deployed to Stalingrad where they fought to take the city. By February, 1943, the Regiment was totally annihilated and obliterated by the Russian Red Army.
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN
PS
TOMMY BOY WE CAN'T HEAR YOU ON THE MASS GRAVES IN IRAQ??
WHERE IS YOUR CONSERN ABOUT THE IRAQI PEOPLE KILLED TODAY BY THE ISLAMIC MONSTERS???
WHERE ARE YOU TO COMPLAIN WITH THE REST OF AMERICA ABOUT THESE MONSTERS WHO SHOOT CHILDREN IN THE BACK IN THE NAME OF YOUR RELIGION??
WE CAN'T HEAR YOU WE ONLY HEAR YOU WHINE!!!!
“Our mujahedeen rush to death... they want to die as much as you care to live,” added the statement, signed by the Al Qaeda Organization in the Land of Two Rivers.
TOMMY WHERE IS YOUR STATMENT TO SAY THIS GUY IS ONE SICK F-CK AND AINT SOMEONE I SUPPORT AND MUST BE KILLED????
YEA THEY RUSHED TO DEATH TO KILL THEMSELFS AND WOMEN IN A MARKET PLACE SHOPPING FOR FOOD FOR THEIR FAMILYS YES HOW BRAVE IS THAT NO TOMMY STOP WHINING AND START DOING WHAT IS RIGHT AND CALL THESE MONSTERS WHAT THEY ARE!!
HELP STOP THEM!!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to Destroy AMM islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen
PS
Tommy Remember our President said either you are with us or we think your with the Terrorist and you have to prove your not!! Not the other way around!!
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/AminAlHusseini.htm#part2
(November - 2003)
Oct. 2003
Organization Of Islamic Conference
True to its colors
2003
October 2003. Putrajaya, Malaysia. Prime Minister and leader of Malaysia Mahthir Muhamad announces the agenda of the Organization of Islamic Conference, confirming its attachment to Amin Al Husseini's vision of the world:
"The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million, but today the Jews rule the world by proxy, We cannot defeat them by violent means. We must use our brains."
He got a standing ovation from the 52 muslim countries in attendance at the conference
Now Tommy this don't look to good for your side??
YOU SEE WE KNOW IF YOU PUT YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND IT'S JUST A WAY TO GET YOUR BUTT BLOWN OFF!!
Asalamu aleykum Shukri:
Muslims, since the inception of Islam, and particularly since the death of the Prophet entered into a haze of superiority and ignorance. The Qur'an and manners of the Prophet have always served as the justification for the offensive/defensive wars Islam has faced. The Qur'an literally permits, what we would call in contemporary times, war crimes and crimes against humanity. It permits, through a literal interpretation of many verese slavery, rape and murder of civilians. Because the Qur'an ( through a literal interpretation) and the Sunnah have mandated these crimes and actions, Muslims will not speak against them, because they are aspects of divine law. The fact that ayat exist extolling the virtues of tolerance, and there are verses such as this, is not easily reconcialible. The Qur'an is too complex to be taken literally. The Qur'an even states that some verses are allegorical and some are not, and that man should not strive to adhere or comprehend these passages. This is an argument against literalism.
Since 9-11 the silence of Muslims has been deafening, aside from mainstream Muslim organisations seeking to deceive Muslims and non-Muslims, instead of facing the facts about or faith. If Islam has been "hijacked" as so many apologists have said, it has been hijacked since its inception. There is no shame in admitting this. Have there been bright spots in Islam's history yes. But they have been outweighed and outmeasured by dark evil periods. We are in the midst of one of these periods.
Yet, Muslims refuse to acknowledge the role the Islam has played in this. We have a wonderful opportunity to change the way we think. Shukri you are brainwashed by what man tells you. You are a man of fiqh and sunnah and tradition. Following these three things is a primary factor in why Islam is where it is today, in the gutter.
And still the Qur'an still presents Muslims with problems. That is why, a new tafsir needs to be developed, and new nonliteral hermeneutical approaches.
The scholars are not God. And the Prophet Muhammaed (SAWS) is not the only Prophet. Allah does not distinguish between Prophets. Can you point to an reason why Muslims cannot follow the teachings of Isa? (And this question is not for non-Muslims, we know how you feel already.)
Which is more important the Sunnah of Allah or al-rasullaah?
Wa salam
Thomas
Hi Catherine:
TOMMY WHERE IS YOUR STATMENT TO SAY THIS GUY IS ONE SICK F-CK AND AINT SOMEONE I SUPPORT AND MUST BE KILLED????
It goes without saying but I will say it. This man is an animal, and so are the people who support him. Him and his supporters deserve death. They have no place in humanity, and the world will be a better place without them. It is a shame that the Iraqi people cannot recognise that the real occupier are Zarqawi and any other "resistance group".
YEA THEY RUSHED TO DEATH TO KILL THEMSELFS AND WOMEN IN A MARKET PLACE SHOPPING FOR FOOD FOR THEIR FAMILYS YES HOW BRAVE IS THAT NO TOMMY STOP WHINING AND START DOING WHAT IS RIGHT AND CALL THESE MONSTERS WHAT THEY ARE!!
They are all monsters. From the terrorists in Chechnya, Palestine to Bali to our own backyards. You have no argument from me. Anyone who supports the ideology of terrorism should be dealt with and punished severely or killed if necessary.
I have never disagreed with you on these points Catherine. The world we live in requires harsh treatment. my only argument is that we distnguish between monsters and their supporters, and Muslims who want peace and want change in Islam, that is, those Muslims who decry Jihad, and dhimmitude. Surely you would agree with that.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Islam is evil.
Those "nominal Muslims" support evil nominally.
Those "moderate Muslims" support evil moderately.
Those "extremist Muslims" support evil extremely.
As for reform efforts? You can't change evil, evil changes you.
LIKE I SAID I DON'T SEE ANY MOSQUES BURNIG IN THE USA!!
DON'T SEE AMERICANS RUNNING OUT TO KILL MULSUMS DO YOU TOMMY??
YOU GIVE LITTLE CREEDIT TO WHERE GREAT CREDIT IS DUE!!
LOOK AT THE EARTHQUAKE IN BAM 30,000 DEAD AND WHO WAS FRIST TO OFFER HELP BUT ISRAEL AND THE USA!
LOOK AT THE MONEY RAISED BY AMERICANS AND ISRAEL TO HELP THOSE HIT BY THE KILLER WAVE AFTER AN EARTHQUAKE 9.3 IN MULSUM LANDS AGAIN IT WAS NOT MULSUM COUNTRYS??
WHO IS IT THERE TO SAVE THE IRAQI PEOPLE FROME THESE ISLAMIC TERRORIST AGAIN IT IS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE EVEN AFTER THE ISLAMIC MONSTERS CUT PEOPLES HEADS OFF ON VIDEO AND SHOT CHILDREN IN THE BACK IN RUSSA!
NO TOMMY YOU GIVE LITTLE CREDIT WHERE MUCH IS DUE!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER[TOMMY IF YOU FIGHT WITH HER THIS IS FOR ALL]GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN
PS
NOTICED YOU SAID NOTHING ABOUT?
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/AminAlHusseini.htm#part2
(November - 2003)
Oct. 2003
Organization Of Islamic Conference
True to its colors
2003
October 2003. Putrajaya, Malaysia. Prime Minister and leader of Malaysia Mahthir Muhamad announces the agenda of the Organization of Islamic Conference, confirming its attachment to Amin Al Husseini's vision of the world:
"The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million, but today the Jews rule the world by proxy, We cannot defeat them by violent means. We must use our brains."
He got a standing ovation from the 52 muslim countries in attendance at the conference
Hang in there, Thomas.
Hi Catherine:
No of course not. Americans and Westerners have been extremely tolerant of Muslims. That is why I said, if you read my post, that I do not believe Islamaphobia exists.
I don't know what planet you are from. We have no bloody argument! I support Israel and the United States military effort. I have even lived in Israel!
NOTICED YOU SAID NOTHING ABOUT?
Catherine two years ago I wrote an article on the role of the Third Position. The third position is the modern marriage of neo-Nazi's and Islamic extremists. In my analysis I highlighted the relationship of the 3rd Reich and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. I did so in conjunction with Bnai Brith, a Jewish organisation by the way.
I do not know why we are arguing here.
Respectfully
Thomas
“Our mujahedeen rush to death... they want to die as much as you care to live,”
The machineguns are this way, quick, dash towards them mooshephuks
Thomas:
If you are still there, can you give your opinion or a short synopsis on what it is that is the driving force behind why men like Zarqawi kill in the name of Allah of which more than 90 percent of his victims are other muslims?
I do not know why we are arguing here.
Respectfully
Thomas
Posted by: Thomas at May 11, 2005 06:36 PM
WHO SAYS WE ARE??
YOU ONCE CALLED ME A 5 YEAR OLD[A CUTE ONE] YOU CAN'T TELL ME YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO TALK TO A 5 YEAR OLD??
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fightin Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Destroy ALL islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat give the World Courage to Stand Up and Fight this Evil Amen
Thomas, Catherine is like a force of nature :) One has to accept that these things happen, and move on.
Either that, or you are being tested by Allah...
Hi Mackie:
If you are still there, can you give your opinion or a short synopsis on what it is that is the driving force behind why men like Zarqawi kill in the name of Allah of which more than 90 percent of his victims are other muslims?
They kill because the Qur'an and Sunnah tell them to. When they justify their actions they use these sources. Its not "desperation" or anything like it, but the sources of Islam.
Catherine:
I once told you that you WRITE like a 5 year old, NOT that you are a five year old. And from what I remember your post was unintelligible. I just have a difficult time reading your posts sometimes. In my humble view, you are intelligent and usually post with good substance that is usually backed up by writings.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Either that, or you are being tested by Allah...
Posted by: Gary at May 11, 2005 07:21 PM
ROTFL!!!!
Gold Star for you today!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with hergive them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Victory[FREEDOM] to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them let not the World be Deceived by them Amen
"If you are still there, can you give your opinion or a short synopsis on what it is that is the driving force behind why men like Zarqawi kill in the name of Allah of which more than 90 percent of his victims are other muslims?"
Zarqawi believes that the Muslims he kills are kufr or apostates. Ahadith tells Muslims that when one renounces Islam the penalty is death. I have also heard that he considers the victims who are innocent as shahid, who have the privilige of dying for Allah.
Cheers
Thomas
Thomas:
And is Zarquawi reading the Surahs and the hadith correctly in your estimation.
Mackie
TOMMY
Well what is to be done to change the minds who feel this way or, I should say those not to support these MONSTERS??
You say there are mulsums who don't believe this hate??
When will they stand up and Fight the Monsters who are giving them a bad name if that is the case?
STAND AGAINST THE MASS GRAVES BY saddam[FOUND IN A HOLE DON'T SHOOT I'M A YELLOW COWARD]
You see we can't hear them??
Know we have to kill the monsters, but like you say we have to know the difference?
How are we to do this?
I see if the mulsum world does not stand against the monsters they too will be destroyed!!
and of course this is what the monsters want.
I can understand why you would want to save your hide.
again you never answered my q? about the meeting in 2003 you gave some excuse about working with a Jewish group to write a paper??
Just a little Redneck[with great leggs] so I need a streight answer don't like word games cause I don't type!!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Destroy ALL islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen
Hi Mackie:
And is Zarquawi reading the Surahs and the hadith correctly in your estimation.
Firstly, he is reading the Qur'an and Sunnah, in my view, in accordance with accepted principles of Islamic jurisprudence. Each school of Sunni though has endorsed "martyrdom" operations and homicide bombings. The scholars that matter, like Qaradawi have condoned these attacks as correct, juristically.
Personally, and many Muslim may render me an infidel for this, I do not take the legal doctrine of jihad literally. In fact, in my view the Qur'an is not a document to be taken literally. Jihad, means absolutely nothing to me, particularly when we see that there has never been a legitimate application of it, in Islam's history. In my view, Jihad, that is the Islamic doctine of offensive war, not an "intenal struggle as some like to tell us that is what jihad really is, can never be justified.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
And what are these war crimes?
O You who believe! Show integrity for the sake of God, bearing witness with justice. Do not let hatred for a people incite you into not being just. Be just. That is closer to faith. Heed God [alone]. God is aware of what you do. (Qur'an, 5:8)
O Mankind! We created you from a male and female, and made you into peoples and tribes so that you might come to know each other. The noblest among you in God's sight is that one of you who best performs his duty. God is All-Knowing, All-Aware. (Qur'an, 49:13)
Be upholders of justice, bearing witness for God alone, even against yourselves or your parents and relatives. Whether they are rich or poor, God is well able to look after them. Do not follow your own desires and deviate from the truth.… (Qur'an, 4:135)
There is no compulsion in religion. True guidance is clearly distinct from error. Anyone who rejects false deities and has belief in God has grasped the Firmest Handhold, which will never give way. God is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. (Qur'an, 2:256)
So, Thomas, which war crimes are permitted in the Quran?
Which verses are these?
Since you have not shown any verses that could justify your premise. I cannot really take your allegations that are based on a false premise very seriously.
Are you an authority on Ulum Al Qur'an in order to make such a fleeting dismissal? You say "taking literally". Do you hold the opinions of people, who take individual Quranic ayat without any context whatsoever, to have any value?
Sorry, you appear to be deceived. The Quran repeatedly instructs people to reflect over the Quran and understand the message.
[39:9] ...Say: Are those equal, those who know and those who do not know? It is those who are endued with understanding that remember (God's Message).
[2:269] He [God] grants wisdom to whom He pleases; and he to whom wisdom is granted indeed receives a benefit overflowing. But none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
That is most certainly a lie.
And you know their intentions well enough to be able to make such slanderous accusations?
There is definitely shame in attempting to conform your religion to fit the views of the enemies of the religion in order to be accepted by them.
Perhaps for you, Islam is dead. Those with Nur in their hearts would perhaps respond differently.
Islam is always on a high standard. Those who follow it are subsequently higher according to the degree to which they follow Islam. The lower the degree, the lower one is towards God and the more one feels that he or she is in the gutter.
Following a high moral standard always presents problems for the human being who is weak and inclined towards his baser nature.
The solution to problems, however, is not to lower the standards of morals set forth to the point where one already meets those standards and hence does not have to trouble his or her self with the tiring task of bringing oneself to a high standard of morals.
Absolutely true.
Because the teachings of Isa (Jesus) peace be upon him, are not available in an authentic form. A Jesuit Priest once informed me that he could not guarantee anything that Jesus said in the New Testament except for "Abba" and "Amen".
Since God, Glorious and Majestic, has informed us that whatever the Messenger says is through inspiration of God, one can treat the words of the Messenger to be Divine Inspiration.
"And obey Allâh and obey the Messenger but if you turn your backs, Our Messenger has only to deliver the manifest message." - (64:12)
"Islam is evil.
Those "nominal Muslims" support evil nominally.
Those "moderate Muslims" support evil moderately.
Those "extremist Muslims" support evil extremely.
As for reform efforts? You can't change evil, evil changes you."
Good one, Freedom! I like that !
Another one: On another post a Mohammedan writer spelled worship " warship"- WAR-ship! Makes sense doesn't it? Jihadis don't worship, they 'warship' keep that in mind!
Thomas: Your fellow muzzies would never let you pass with your 'modern' ideas! Get real! As soon as the 'conservatives' get hold of you,-you will be roasted! Don't have any illusions, the cult will not change for you.
You also keep insisting that we/the West should bear the burden of proof and go all out to sepaerate the "good" from the "baddies"-
That is just about impossible to do and the cost of security is already much more than we can bear.
I am for deportations (as you know) and for the destruction of the cult, including razing of the mosques and the madrassahs- null, zero, zilch. The Germans have forbidden Scientology since it leaves mental wrecks behind, Japan has all but banned Aum -Shinrikiio, and I don't see why it can't be done with Islam. I am not calling for genocide as you have continually claimed, but certainly internment and deportation, and re-education for those who (are allowed to) remain..
Hi Catherine:
You say there are mulsums who don't believe this hate??
When will they stand up and Fight the Monsters who are giving them a bad name if that is the case?
Well Catherine, we need to give them a voice. But even so, in the West in a free society we would have expected alot more "moderate" Muslims to come to the forefront would we not? The silence has been deafening. Keep in mind that these Monsters do not only view you as an infidel, but they view me and other peaceful Muslims as well as infidels. It is worst for us. I am threatened by Muslims on a daily basis. But I do not merely hide behind my computer (not saying you do), I speak at Mosques and try and work with Muslims.
You see we can't hear them?? Know we have to kill the monsters, but like you say we have to know the difference? How are we to do this?
Great question. Some of us are right in front of you. I stand before you as one, and there are others beginning to wake up. We are a small number. You can distingusih us from the rest, in not only what we say, but what we do to solve the problem. Some members of FMAT are committed to this, and I am confident that you will see some more Muslims ready to take on Jihad. We just need to show them how. And Catherine, its no teasy. We have detractors everywhere. No one seems eager to give us a hand up. We need everyones support. Jihadists are just as much my enemy as they are yours.
I don't want to save my hide. That is why I stick my neck on the line. I dont hide behind the computer. I am active in the community and ready to face whatever the jihadists wao throw at me.
again you never answered my q? about the meeting in 2003 you gave some excuse about working with a Jewish group to write a paper??
Yes, Mahthir Muhamad's statement shows that it is often hard to distinguish moderates from Islamists. He is often perceived as the leading "moderate" Muslim leader. Reform efforts are hampered when Muslims, are in a state of denial not unlkie an individual addicted to drugs or alcohol.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Thomas:
And my final questions since you appear to openly candid in your responces.
1. Do you feel most muslims believe that the dar al-harb is a fair designation for those of other faiths?
2. And do you believe that the Tahrif doctrine teaches a fair interpretation of the Bible,and the Torah that Jews,and Christians hold sacred the same as muslims hold the Quran?
Sincerely -- Mackie
It’s time to err on the side of caution. It makes no sense to stand by and wait until the terrorist cells murder more civilians, again. We know they are lurking among us. Deviously planning and plotting while pretending to be nice muslims right up to the second they kill.
Since it has been agreed that islamic immigrants contribute nothing to the West that the West can’t do without, the question is, why hasn’t mass deportations been proceeding, even as we speak. Is it because of the law? This shouldn’t be allowed to stand as an obstacle in the way of protecting you and me from being a victim of murder. New laws can and must be enacted that override the existing obsolete ones.
Why are we being forced to endure another hit before we do this? Further procrastinating is irresponsible, incomprehensible, and illogical. We cannot and should not continue to allow human time bombs to walk freely amongst the general public, waiting for their moment to kill.
Are we nothing more that expendable units, sacrificing our very lives, for what? Is it really more important to be politically correct and protect the rights of a people who along with dreams of a better life in the West, import with them a few mass murderers that no one can single out? What is more important, our lives and our way of life or being politically correct?
Truthfully,
Thomas, please email me at shukris@yahoo.com and I will provide you with my phone number. We can then have some sensible dialogue instead of going back and forth on an Islamophobic website.
Peace.
Terminator:
I pray that we can prove you wrong.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Thomas-
With all due respect, given all that you have said about the flaws inherent in Islam, why do you stay a Muslim? What is there in that is worth saving?
Shukri:
Thank you for your contact details. I will drop you an email. Wa salam.
Mackie:
1. Do you feel most muslims believe that the dar al-harb is a fair designation for those of other faiths?
2. And do you believe that the Tahrif doctrine teaches a fair interpretation of the Bible,and the Torah that Jews,and Christians hold sacred the same as muslims hold the Quran?
First question: Yes and no. I am torn a bit on this. To be honest, I am not sure how knowledeable Muslims are about their own faith, particularly in the West. Sure we know that many are, but as far as most Muslims I am not sure. Nonetheless, I would hazard a guess and say that at least 60% of the world's Muslims would feel that way.
Second question: I do not support this doctrine, but every religion believes that they "got it right" don't they. The problem is, Islamic literature has gone to far in its assertion that Jews and Christians have distorted their own texts. It is easy to see why Jews and Christians are offended. Islam's handling of its view on Jesus in relation to Christianity has been particularly troubling. I personally have a different outlook on the bible than most Muslims do. Nothing prevents Muslims from following the teaching so of Jesus. In theory in Islam, all Prophets are equal before God. Muslims, always tout to Christians how large of a role Jesus plays in Islam. His actual role however, is insignificant, as his teachings are all but ignored in Islam.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Why does Zarqawi kill other muslims?
http://www.islamic-state.org/leaflets/030129.html
Thomas,
"Nothing prevents Muslims from following the teaching so of Jesus."
I am not much for theological discussions, but I cannot resist a question:
How could a Muslim of any sort, which I presume would at the very least be someone who accepted a portion of the messages in the Qur'an, endorse the teaching, 'love your enemies'(and this is the beginning)?
And even if one found some creative interpretation of this teaching and, I suppose, some equally creative reading of some sentences in the Qur'an that somehow brought these ideas in proximity, what would one do with the hundreds of passages demeaning non-believers, the warnings, sanctions for violence, examples of divine brutality, etc.? How could one ever assert in good faith that the Qur'an teaches Muslims to love non-believers, who are enemies of God, the prophet, and Muslims themselves (and note this question attends to the distinction between non-believers who are not enemies and non-believers who are, although the spirit of the Qur'an is not very sensitive to this distinction)?
Thomas-
I've never before heard a Muslim state (correctly, by the way, since Muhammed had little knowledge of the New Testament)that the teachings of Christ are largely ignored in Islam. Now for the next step, and for all you right-wing Christians on this board, I do apologize: Since many of Christ's teachings are most likely and ultimately derived from the Buddhist teachings brought back to Palestine by the armies of Alexander the Great, and since Buddhism would not have been possible were it not for the previous existence of Hinduism,that big, polytheistic "bugaboo," is not what you are saying nothing but "shirk" ???
How can you truly call yourself a MUslim, to echo what Treehugger just said?
P.S.
Catherine, girl...Glad to see you're back!!! We all know by now that you're a member of MI5!!! (See previous threads and posts of the day)
Thomas:
Thank you for your reponces to the questions I posed to you.
Sincerely -Mackie
Greetings JTF
How could a Muslim of any sort, which I presume would at the very least be someone who accepted a portion of the messages in the Qur'an, endorse the teaching, 'love your enemies'(and this is the beginning)?
I cannot speak for any other Muslims other than myself. Following a literalist approach to the Qur'an, the answer to your question is that a Muslim could not. A literal interpretation of the Qur'an is a direct road to terrorism. The Qur'an cannot be taken literally. Firstly it is impossible, there are internal inconsistencies within the Qur'an, that only get clarified when we accept the man made concept of abrogation. Abrogation is utter nonsense. If the Qur'an is perfect why would the doctrine of Nafsuh exist? Because the Qur'an is laden with these inconsistencies it cannot be taken literally, because of its complexities. I think one ayat sheds a bit of light on this, and tends to show that the Qur'an cannot be taken literally (although obviously not conclusive on the matter)
He it is who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. men of understanding". (3:7)
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Kafira:
Since many of Christ's teachings are most likely and ultimately derived from the Buddhist teachings brought back to Palestine by the armies of Alexander the Great, and since Buddhism would not have been possible were it not for the previous existence of Hinduism,that big, polytheistic "bugaboo," is not what you are saying nothing but "shirk" ???
My Christian background shudders at your ridiculous assertion. "Shirk" in Islam (and there are varying degrees) is to associate anything with God. in Islam, following Jesus's teachings certainly would not fit the definition of shirk.
As to why I am Muslim, I have posted many times before. No disrespect to either of you, I do not have to justify why I believe.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
JTF: Sorry for the incomplete ayah:
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical seeking discord and searching for its hidden meanings but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. (3:7)
Cheers
Thomas
Thank you for your response Thomas. But, of course, the rejection of literalism and the search for 'fundamental meaning' does not answer the question, which I realize asks for a lot.
You seem quite sincere, and I wish you the best in trying to make sense of these problems; but the bald assertion that nothing prevents (and I presume that 'nothing' refers to 'nothing in Islamic teachings') Muslims from following the teachings of Jesus is at the very least theologically problematic; and, of course, if we are simply talking about common interpretations and practices, contemporary and throughout Islamic history, this statement is obviously false.
Thomas, have you seen the archaeological evidence which proves that Allah of Islam was originally the Pagan Moon-god-idol of pre-Islamic Arabia?
http://www.nccg.org/islam/Islam01-Allah.html More archaeological evidence of the Moon-god-Allah
"It is an indisputable fact that ALLAH does not appear even once as the Name of God, or even of a man, in the Hebrew Scriptures."
What are your thoughts on this?
Touche, Thomas, for dodging my questions about Hinduism, which predates Islam and Christianity by a long shot, and which still boasts almost as many adherents as either religion. I also loved how you omitted addressing Buddhism, but stick firm to the so called "monotheistic triad" of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I stand corrected. You are truly a Muslim after all.
Sure JTF. When you examine the contemporary and historical practice, that cannot be denied. However my basic theory is correct. Jesus is a Prophet in Islam, and there is equality of the Prophets in Islam before God. The Torah and the Bible in the view of Islam, are only incorrect inasmuch as they directly contradict the Qur'an. The life Jesus led, the way he lived could theoretically have a basis in Islam. Contemporary and historical practice have rejected this. Emphasising Jesus and his teachings, who arguably is Islam's most important Prophet bcause of his role on the day of judgment (according to Muslims) could be a way forward. Nothing in the Qur'an states that Jesus did not carry out the teachings he actually carried out in the Gospels.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Kafira:
Please do not put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head. I have every respect for the teachings of Hinsuism and Buddhism. I wish some of the principles of these two great faiths were found in Islam! But there is no historical or spiritual linkage between Buddhism Hinduism and Judaism and Christianity. Again they may share similar principles in terms of humanity and kindness (which they undoubtedly do) but no other link.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Hi Freedom1:
Thank you for the link I have read this before and other articles similar to it. It is an interesting theory. Nonethless I do not accept that Islam is a fiction arising out of paganism. Explaining further, would mean that I have to justify my own personal faith. I have done it so many times before, please do not ask me to go through this again. Let us agree to disagree on this point shall we? I am not trying to be rude or elusive either.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Thomas,
Defensive are you? Others have asked. Why are you a muslim? No one is asking you to “justify” it. What’s the big secret? Do you think we can’t handle the truth? Spill it dude, if your man enough.
Sincerely,
No worries, Thomas. I just wanted to know if you'd seen the archaeological evidence.
:)
Thomas-
Still curious.
You've pointed out a number of problems within Islam. My question is, what is there in Islam that makes it worth following? What drew you to follow this particular religion above all others?
I ask these questions with all due respect.
Thomas,
I cannot support you. I’ve come to believe the problem is not just jihad alone, but islam, all of it. Unless you have the power to change the sacred books, you and your group are but a gnat attempting to stop a battleship. I believe islam to be a carnivore. Eventually it must be put down or someone I love will be eaten. I believe it’s a cult and it’s loose on the streets of my country.
Regards,
Quite a theological mess, isn't it? "The Torah and the Bible in the view of Islam, are only incorrect inasmuch as they directly contradict the Qur'an" (but why couldn't this be a principle subject to revision in light of 'understanding of fundamental meaning'?). But, the Qur'an cannot be taken literally, there are inconsistencies, there must some spiritual search for 'fundamental meaning' guided by 'understanding'; and presumably, understanding has something to do with 'seeing' the 'fundamental truth' of the Qur'an in the first place. Some circular reasoning there, but we'll let it go.
And we must get clear on what the Qur'an really says, because the Qur'an shall stand as the benchmark for what shall be accepted and rejected as valid Islamic teachings from the Gospels and Torah; but we are not entirely sure what the Qur'an says. Nevertheless, somehow we know that it all fits together into a beautiful harmony.
Well, I am not much of a theologian, but you got me confused.
In any case, I wish you luck in your attempts to convince co-religionists (if we can call them that) that, at the very least, they should not hate and seek to destroy their enemies, which, in the minds of millions, will include both of us.
Treehugger:
I grew up a devout Catholic. I studied Christianity and hermeneutics of the gospel throughout university and was enrolled in a simary in 1995. I decided at the last minute that it was not the correct path for me. In 1996 I tarvelled to Cairo to study comparative theology. It is at this point I began studying Islamic philosophy. I admire how devout people were in Egypt to praying and fasting. I studied with a critical eye. I was ware of the problems facing Islam then. What attracted me to Islam initially was this notion of pure submission to God, which is what I believed Islam to characterise. Compared to growing up and seeing people go to churhc on Sundays, then forget about Jesus in the parking lot, Islam appeared to be more focused on God. My study, including critical studies lead to my conversion at Al Azhar in Cairo (the infamous Sunni institute).
Is Islam worth following in its current form? I do not believe so that is why I am part of an organisation that is working towards something. Whether we succeed is another matter. Myself, and Likeminded Muslims may have to divorce oursleves from contemporary Islam someday if things do not change.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
misspelling above: seminary....
But the submission to G-D is forced. If muslims don't submit, they are to be punished. The legalism of islam is what attracted you? I hope you will admit that some Christians are true to the faith of Jesus Christ, not just inside the church.
Carolyn
The legalism of islam is what attracted you?
No. I have never been the sort to "need" spiritual structure of that kind. I know many converts to Islam, like having their lives structured. It seemed to me at the time, that I could be closer to God as a Muslim through salat and fasting.
Of course. Most Christians are not Sunday Christians and I did not mean to generalise. It just frustrated me that the Christians I knew were not devout enough.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Thomas,
I’ll conclude that the answer to why you are a muslim is “choosy radicals choose islam”. Isn’t it fair to say that you rejected the "white mans religion" (didn’t quite fit in, what with all the white faces and all). And with isalm there would many other losers and victims of societal injustices to relate your problems to in a mosque rather than a Church. I can understand that. Hey, everyone wants to go where they feel like they fit in. Why are you at JW?
Seemingly intelligence people join cults all the time. It’s nothing new. It's a psychological disorder brought on by any number of reasons. Disillusionment, middle age crisis, career burnout, sexual dysfunction ,you name it. Anyway Thomas, if this islam thing doesn’t work out there is always the Heavens Gate. Make sure you have your sneakers on and your overdose pills handy when the next comet comes along.
TOMMY
IT IS ALL THE KILLING WE SEE THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THE MULSUMS!!
Most people don't care what you believe, but mulsums seam to step over the line with all the takeing of citys and killing people!!
If you are who you say you are I wish you Strength, but curse you if you are lieing!!
You see we know what the qu-ran says about breaking tready's and lieing in jihad it is okay and since mulsums seam to be in a constent state of jihad it is hard to trust.
You if what you say is true you have a hard road this is true.
But if you want to save your people you must make them understand.
After all we don't have mass graves in this country??
Americans don't want to see their Children harmed and what happened in Russia woke up the American women to what mulsums are willing to do to non-mulsums.
Proof is in the pudding as they say??
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless he USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat give the Wold Courage to Stand Up and Fight this Evil Amen
Is it now US policy to inhibit De-Baathization in Iraq? See attached link.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/may2005/iraq-m04.shtml
Participants in the linked site regularly package innocuous content in otherwise learned commentary. However, I don't think that applies here.
It has always been my view that the decision of the Coalition Provisional Authority (defunct) to outlaw the Baath party and movement, effectively crippled Secularism in Iraq, and led Islamofascists to fill the power vacuum. I have seen well documented reports, noting that large Iraqi cities - Basra in particular - are effectively Talibanized and void of civil governance.
If the faith-based Bush-Rice regime are in fact undoing their suicidal indulgence of Islamofascism in Iraq, then I welcome it. However, as the Hizbollah-Corridor forms between Teheran and Tel Aviv, Iran's Mullah-tyrants are licking their chops over Washington's $300 billion dollar folly. Again, the problem with all (100%, tout le monde, todo mundo, allen, etc) Islamofascists is: their lives.
Cross:
I was a member of the congregation of St Vincent De Paul in the city of Buffalo. Sixty percent of the congregation was African-American. Buffalo has one of the largest African-American Catholic populations. What is the White Man's religion? Is Christianity really the white man's religion? At any rate, I fit in quite well as a member of the Parish council and membership in other church committees.
Nice hearing from you.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
There is a rather lengthy discussion in a 2004 Frontpage article that Thomas was a part of,
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14358
"then forget about Jesus in the parking lot, Islam appeared to be more focused on God. " - Thomas
Thomas - you have judged the book by the actions of a few "Sunday" Christians. If we applied the same test to Islam (even on a grand scale as opposed to a few Catholics), we would conclude that Islam:-
a) Turns people into terrorists
b) Kills millions
c) Hates all other belief systems - and subdues them by force.
d) Kills people who turn away from Islam (in most parts of the world - including the West).
e) Shuns democracy, and loves dictatorship.
e) Approves of Child sex (so long as they have had their first period)
In light of this - I'd much rather live next door to a nominal Christian who doesn't take the Bible literally, as opposed to a Muslim who is the same in Islam with the Koran. Eventually the Muslim will read the Koran - and guess what? 9/11 here we come again!
The Christian? He might end up reading the Bible, taking it literally, and end up loving me, donating to Charities, seeing the value of freedom etc - being more like Christ.
I would much rather someone being more like Christ than Mohammed living next door to me.
JTF - Well said above.
Ok Thomas since you are so sensitive about it I’m not going to bust your chops all night. There are more important issues at hand than to be concerned with your petty little personal affairs anyhow.
Does exercise of political "freedom" include Islamofascist plebiscites in the name of "democracy"? See the latest crop of US anti-Secular' faith-based indulgence of Islamofascism.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/GE12Ag02.html
To me, freedom means: secure from the Islamofascist vermin.
3rd Time Lucky:
You are unfairly characterising what I said. I made no judgment on Christianity or its merits. I made no judgment, but an observation. I know many more Christians who are devout and faithful, than of Sunday Catholics.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
THOMAS:
"What attracted me to Islam initially was this notion of pure submission to God, which is what I believed Islam to characterise."
If you're looking to become closer to God, you don't need the seventh century arab traditions and petty rules that come with islam. IMO, spirituality is a personal matter between the God and the individual. With all that's going on in the infinite universe, do you think that God really cares if you pet a dog?
"Is Islam worth following in its current form? I do not believe so that is why I am part of an organisation that is working towards something. Whether we succeed is another matter. Myself, and Likeminded Muslims may have to divorce oursleves from contemporary Islam someday if things do not change."
Good luck on that. Abandoning Catholicism because of what you didn't like wasn't hazardous to your health. Draw attention to yourself by leaving islam, or even worse trying to publicly reform it, and you can bet the 'old time religion' muslims will have a fatwa with your name on it.
Completely OT, Beagle's little baby boy died. This is just so sad.
NOW AINT THAT FUNNY??
TOMMY BOY DIDN'T GO TO ISLAM BECAUSE HE HAD AN IPIFINAY BUT THE BUTTS IN THE AIR IN EGYPT??
NOW IF HE WOULD HAVE GONE TO ISRAEL TO THE WAILING WALL HE WOULD BE A JEW???
REMEMBER IF YOU STICK YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND YOU WILL JUST GET YOUR BUTT SHOT OFF!!
ON 9/11/2001 WE GOT OUR BUTTS SHOT OFF NEVER AGAIN!
AS FOR THE JESUS THING AND MULSUMS HERE WE GO??
Qur’an 4:91 “You will find others who, while wishing to live in peace and being safe from you to gain the confidence of their people; thrown back to mischief headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and offer you peace besides restraining their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear sanction and authority.” [So if you wish to live in peace, but are perceived as being mischievous (i.e., non-Muslim), Allah has given his Jihad warriors “a clear sanction and authority to seize and kill” you
I THINK THAT IS PRETTY CLEAR!!
Qur’an 59:11 “Have you not observed the Hypocrites saying to their unbelieving brethren among the People of the Book, ‘If you are expelled [from your homes by the Muslims], we will go with you?’ But Allah is witness that they are liars. If the Jews are expelled, never will the Hypocrites go with them; if they are attacked, they will not help them defend themselves. In truth you [jihadist Muslims] are more fearful and awful (than they) because they are afraid of you. This is a result of the terror (sent) by Allah. They are men devoid of understanding.”
OH I THINK THIS IS PRETTY CLEAR!!
Qur’an 8:47 “Be not as those who came from their homes full of their own importance, trying to turn men away from [fighting] in Allah’s Cause. Allah is encircling them. Satan made their acts seem alluring to them, and said: ‘No one can conquer you this day, while I am near you.’ But when the two armies came in sight of each other, he turned on his heels, and said: ‘Lo! I am not with you. I see what you cannot. Verily, I fear Allah: for Allah is severe in punishment.’”
WAS THAT THE 67 WAR?? OH MY??
Qur’an 63:4 “When you look at the Hypocrites, their bodies please you; and when they speak, you listen to their words. They are pieces of wood propped up. They think every cry is against them. They are the enemies; so beware of them. The curse of Allah is on them! Allah will destroy them. How are they deluded and perverted?”
SOUNDS PRETTY CLEAR TO ME!!
Qur’an 5:4 “This day those who reject faith give up all hope of your religion. Yet fear them not, fear Me. This day I have perfected your religion and have chosen for you Submission as your religion.”
AGAIN PRETTY CLEAR!!
Qur’an 58:46 “Obey Allah and His Messenger; and do not dispute!”
SOUNDS PRETTY CLEAT TO ME
Qur’an 3:131 “Fear the Fire, which is prepared for those who reject Faith: and obey Allah and the Messenger.”
NOW THIS I WILL EXPLAIN IT. IS IF YOU MESS WITH THOSE PEOPLE THEY WILL FU-K UP AND YOUR AL AINT GOING TO BE THEIR FOR YOU!! SO WHY ARE YOU DOING IT NOW??
Qur’an 9:3 “Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations.”
WE HAVE SEEN THIS BY MULSUMS THROUGH HISTORY
Qur’an 66:1 “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”
EVEN YOUR PART IN THE TREADY OF VERSI??
Qur’an 60:1 “Believers, take not my enemies and yours as allies, offering them love, even though they have rejected the truth that has come to you, and have driven out the Prophet and you because you believe in Allah! If you have come out to struggle [fight jihad] in My Cause, and to seek My Pleasure, (take them not as friends), holding secret converse of love with them: for I am aware of all you conceal. And any of you that does this has strayed from the Straight Path. If they were to get the better of you, they would be your foes, and stretch forth their hands and their tongues against you with evil (designs).”
SO YOU CAN SEE TOMMY WITH ALL YOUR PRETTY TALK ??
Qur’an 60:5 “We reject you. Hostility and hate have come between us forever, unless you believe in Allah only.’”
PRETTY CLEAR TO ME!!
Qur’an 48:13 “If any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared a Blazing Fire for them!”
TOMMY PRETTY CLEAR TOME
Qur’an 9:30 “The Jews call Uzair (Ezra) the son of Allah, and the Christians say that the Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying from their mouths; they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s (Himself) fights against them, cursing them, damning and destroying them. How perverse are they!”
PRETTY CLEAR
Qur’an 5:78 “Curses were pronounced on the unbelievers, the Children of Israel who rejected Islam, by the tongues of David and of Jesus because they disobeyed and rebelled.”
PRETTY CLEAR AND WHEN YOU TAKE ALL THE OTHER CRAP IT AINT EVEN HARD FOR A REDNECK[WITH GREAT LEGGS] LIKE ME CAN!!
Qur’an 5:86 “Those who reject Islam and are disbelievers, denying our Signs and Revelations —they shall be the owners of the Hell Fire.”
YOU BET WE DO AND WILL USE IT IF WE FEEL BACKED IN A ?!! WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO PROTECT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND HER CHILDREN!!
Ishaq:243 “I heard the Apostle say: ‘Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!’ He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks…. Allah sent down concerning him: ‘To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom.” [9:61] “Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ‘If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey’s.’”
NOW THAT IS CLEAR
Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”
CLEAR
Qur’an 59:14 “The Jews will not unite and fight against you except from behind walls. They hate themselves. You would think they were united, but their hearts are divided. That is because these [Jews] are a people devoid of sense. Like those who recently preceded them [the Meccans at Badr], they [the Jews who were just sent into the desert to die] have tasted the evil result of their conduct. And for them a grievous punishment.”
WELL WHAT ABOUT IN 67
Qur’an 4:43 “Believers, approach not prayers with a mind befogged or intoxicated until you understand what you utter. Nor when you are polluted, until after you have bathed. If you are ill, or on a journey, or come from answering the call of nature, or you have touched a woman, and you find no water, then take for yourselves clean dirt, and rub your faces and hands. Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.” [The Qur’an claims women are unclean and polluted—worse than dirt.]
OH MY AMERICAN WOMEN WILL NEVER GO FOR THAT!!
Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: ‘God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.’ But the Messiah only said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’
AND WE SEE WHAT MULSUMS DO TO WHAT THEY THINK IS BLASPHEME TODAY IN AFGHAN THEY ROITED AND KILLED A FEW PEOPLE OVER A MAGIZINE ART WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight and Courage to Destroy ALL islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen
Catherine:
Your insults are unecessary. And you are also preaching to the "converted" (so to speak).
NOW IF HE WOULD HAVE GONE TO ISRAEL TO THE WAILING WALL HE WOULD BE A JEW???
I did not convert because I went to Egypt. I converted to Islam because I had studied Islam for a period of no less than 5 years.
SO YOU CAN SEE TOMMY WITH ALL YOUR PRETTY TALK ??
See what? That Islam has grave problems? Of course I do. I never said I had all of the answers. At least some Muslims are working towards change. Or would it better serve your purpose if no Muslims tried to change?
What pretty talk? How should I speak Catherine?
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Thomas,
Thomas is going through a spiritual identity crisis. In an effort to cure his ailment Thomas goes religion shopping. Hopping from one religion to the other. What religion are you going to try next Thomas? May I suggest the Three Little Pigs or the Wizard of Oz?
Sinfearfully yours,
"Three Little Pigs or the Wizard of Oz"
Definitely a couple of viable options. Any other suggestions?
Yours sincerely
Thomas
TOMMY
I said you have a hard road!
If you want to change mulsums so do I I want to live in peace with my neighbors sounds like you do.
BUT and that is what we always come back to is that big BUT . That BUT always involves the killing of non-mulsums somewhere in the world.
You say you want to stop the monsters in islam hows that fight going?
The thing is there will always be some monster who comes along who brings the ugly things to the top and gets the mulsums to want to kill non-mulsums!
even in that book they were killing people today in it's name?? people in a school roited and killed now who wants people like that for neighbors??
Are the Iraqis Fighting hard for FREEDOM and the monsters take their mosques and tell them it is their duty to kill themself.
You have histoy against you you say if you can't change it think again the monsters won't let you leave it??
are you here to chane those minds who are not mulsum or keep an eye on us or change the hearts of the next mulsum??
Every one here wants you to win the fight you have talked about here.
We all have our doughts but want you to win for the change that needs to happen
if you have come here for a pat on your back well you have that.
BUT TOMMY YOU KNOW THIS JUST AINT RIGHT!!
There is absolutely nothing about these central tenets of Islam that is inconsistent with Western society, and in fact the second third and fourth are synonymous with essentially all organised religions. Sadly, due to the politicization of Islam I often feel that these central tenets of Islam have been de-emphasised. Also, there is an utter obsession among many Western converts with the notion of the eventual formation of an Islamic state, within the Western state they are in!
SHORT SKIRTS FOR ONE AND I WONT GO ANY FATHER!!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squiller Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat let not the World be Deceived by them Amen
Saudis say that Reality TV is haram,
http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.asp?Article=111839&Sn=WORL&IssueID=28053
Thomas,
Since you obviously lost your faith in a viable religion and somehow have been drawn to a false one, I recommend that you should consider Puss in Boots. You might just fit right in with that one.
Sincerefullyxpaladociously yours,
Catherine:
If you want to change mulsums so do I I want to live in peace with my neighbors sounds like you do.
I am glad we agree on this.
You say you want to stop the monsters in islam hows that fight going?
Not very well I am afraid. We must not only speak, but act. If we cannot begin to show Muslims another way, we will have failed.
BUT TOMMY YOU KNOW THIS JUST AINT RIGHT!!
You should cite the previous paragraph which states:
"However, at a personal level I believe that the classical sources of Islam provide merely a general guide to life. There are too many inconsistencies between the Medinan and Meccan surah's for every ayat of the Quran to be taken literally. It is a general guide. What is important, essential, are the five pillars: the testification of faith, prayer, charity, fasting during Ramadan, and pilgrimage to Mecca (if possible)."
I stated that there is nothing inconsistent with the FIVE PILLARS of Islam, the central tenets of Islam NOT ISLAM AS A WHOLE. We know that aspects of Islam are inconsistent with the West. Praying, fasting, almsgiving, testifying there is only one God, and making a pilgrimage, however are not. Catholics and most Christians undertake similar rites and rituals. Ibn Waraq, once said that we must marginalise/relegate Islam to the personal. The five pillars, I think largely refelcts that if followed.
are you here to chane those minds who are not mulsum or keep an eye on us or change the hearts of the next mulsum
I am not here to necessarily convince you of our goals. Only actions will. And besides we can convince you all day, but unless we start convincing Muslims, we may as well pack it all in and quit.
Cheers
Thomas
Thomas,
Since you obviously lost your faith in a viable religion and somehow have been drawn to a false one, I recommend that you should consider Puss in Boots. You might just fit right in with that one.
Sincerefullyxpaladociously yours,
Posted by: Cross at May 12, 2005 12:56 AM
ROTFL!!
Gold Star for you!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE COUNTRIES WHO HAS HEROS AMEN
PITY THE COUNTRIES WHO NEED THEM
Cross:
"Since you obviously lost your faith in a viable religion and somehow have been drawn to a false one, I recommend that you should consider Puss in Boots. You might just fit right in with that one."
Sounds fantastic. I will look into it immediately. I owe you one.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Cross, Geoff may lose his place as the witty talent at JW, you are sharp. LOL
Sincerefullyxpaladociously yours,
Posted by: Cross
Cross:
The difference between us couldnt be more obvious. It is one thing to hide behind a computer, like you do I'm sure, and talk about what this world needs to do about Islam and national secruity and so on, and complain. For one, I am active in the Muslim and non-Muslim community trying to highlight the problems of Islam, and jihad. So not only do I speak but I act. I challenge Muslims and non-Muslims (liberals mostly) who are not aware of the real root of the problem of Islam.
What have I been doing exactly to help fight these monsters? What has FMAT been doing? Here is a sampling. I am seeking to strengthen New Zealand's counter-terrorism legislative framework. I will be presenting the following submissions to New Zealand Parliament in the coming weeks (see below). If anyone is interested, I can email the MSWORD version to you.
I am happy to elaborate if asked.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Submission
To the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the Statutory Review of the Terrorism Suppression Act
By Thomas J Haidon
President of the Free Muslim Coalition Against Terrorism, New Zealand Chapter
1 INTRODUCTION
1.0 The Terrorism Suppression Act 2002 (the “Act”) represents in part, New Zealand’s commitment to fulfilling its obligations pursuant to Security Council Resolution 1373 following the terrorist atrocities of 11 September 2001 in the United States and 12 October 2002 in Bali. This statutory review provides a much needed opportunity to examine the operation of the Act thus far, and to examine specific provisions.
1.1 Overall, the substance and operation of the Act generally achieves compliance with the principles of human rights and New Zealand’s obligations under international law. The Act achieves a fair balance between security and liberty, in the post- 11 September and 12 October environment, where the state of the world has fundamentally changed.
1.2 It is the purpose of this submission however to highlight two provisions, which are arguably flawed and present specific concerns that should be addressed by this Committee particularly through amendment or repeal. The operation of these provisions tends to weaken the operation and effectiveness of the Act, and arguably, these provisions act outside the contemplation of Resolution 1373 upon which the Act was made pursuant to.
1.3 Specifically we seek to make comment and recommendations with respect to the following two provisions:
• Section 10(2);
• Section 13.
2 SECTION 10(2)
Comment
2.0 Section 10(2), provides an express exceptions to the making of “property, or financial or related services” of terrorists and associated entities. Under this provision it is not an offence to make property, or services available to a movement or organisation advocating democratic government or the protection of human rights and “that is not involved in any way in the carrying out of terrorist acts”.
2.1 The primary issue arising from this provision is that conceivably the United Nations in particular could designate a terrorist entity an organisation which has not been involved in any way in the actual carrying out of terrorist acts, such as a social wing of a terrorist organisation which may provide health and welfare services, but nonetheless forms part of the financing or ideological structure of an organisation that carries out terrorist acts.
2.2 The phrase “not involved in any way in carrying out terrorist attacks” could be interpreted to exclude involvement in the form of facilitation, encouragement or support, and therefore prevent the exception applying to entities designated by the United Nations as terrorist entities because of their role in the facilitation, encouragement or support for terrorist activities, whether direct or indirect. However, a wider interpretation would mean that the exception could apply to such entities designated by the UN or New Zealand which are not directly involved in the carrying out of terrorist acts, but that are financially, ideologically or otherwise connected to an entity that does.
2.3 The danger associated with this provision is that it essentially allows for a person to “second guess” a United Nations or New Zealand terrorist designation through the courts if there is a mere belief that an organisation promotes democracy or human rights. Therefore, a person’s personal interpretation as to what constitutes a terrorist organisation becomes justiciable in the courts. While New Zealand courts are likely to apply a standard of objective reasonableness or a “reasonable person” standard to this exception, the Crown would conceivably be forced to demonstrate that the recipient organisation has carried out terrorist attacks. Recently, commentator John Smith, who completed a comprehensive study and analysis of New Zealand’s counter-terrorism framework, commented on the dilemma section 10(2) could pose:
Section 10(b), however, would put the merits of the designated terrorist on trial and require prosecutors to rebut a defence with proof that the individual or organisation actually committed terrorist acts – evidence that is likely to be classified or at least otherwise inadmissible because of hearsay or other evidentiary problems. This is particularly true because the Act explicitly authorises the Government to rely on UN Security Council information and, accordingly, such third-party material may be the only evidence authorities have to buttress their decision .
2.4 This section directly conflicts with the Prime Minister’s authority to designate a terrorist or associated organisation which not only applies to groups who carry out terrorist attacks, but also to those that facilitate the carrying out of such acts or are owned or controlled by those who do. As Smith has noted:
The exclusion provision does not recognise that entities may be designated under either of the latter two categories, meaning that it appears to permit persons to continue to provide services to entities designated for facilitating terrorist acts or being owned or controlled by terrorists.
This section, therefore, dilutes the effectiveness of section 20 and the terrorist designation process.
RECOMMENDATION
2.4 It is recommended that the Committee consider two options: repeal or amendment. In our view, repealing section 10(2) presents the best possible option because it eliminates the danger of a United Nations or New Zealand terrorist designation being challenged in the courts on the basis that the organisation, in a person’s subjective view, advocates democracy or human rights.
2.5 However, the Committee could alternatively consider an amendment to narrow the effect of the exception in order for it to apply only to those organisations which advocate democratic government or the protection of human rights and that are not involved in any way in not only carrying out terrorist acts, but also organisations which contribute (albeit indirectly) financially and ideologically. For example, while Harakat al-Muqawamah al-Islamiyya (the political wing or social wing of Hamas) may not be directly responsible for carrying out terrorist acts, it is ideologically and financially supportive of the Iz Al-Deen Al Quassam, its military wing (recognised by Australia as a terrorist organisation), which has carried out terrorist attacks. While New Zealand does not recognise Hamas, or its wings, as terrorist or associated entities, it is not inconceivable that New Zealand may do so in the near future. If New Zealand does decide to place Hamas, or more specifically Iz Al-Deen Al Qassam on its list, because of the operation of 10(2), New Zealand could encounter some difficulty in terms of designating Hamas’ political and social wings (viewed by some nations as entities that promote the human rights of the Palestinian people), despite the fact that they are financially and ideologically intertwined with Iz Al-Deen Al Qassam.
2.6 Section 10(2) could be amended as follows in order to narrow the scope of the exception:
2) To avoid doubt, nothing in subsection (1) makes it an offence to make property or services available, or to cause property or services to be made available, either to, or for the benefit of, a movement or organisation advocating democratic government or the protection of human rights and that is not involved in any way in the carrying out of terrorist acts.
2A) For the purposes of subsection (2), involvement in the carrying out of a terrorist act includes, but is not limited to, facilitating or contributing, financially, ideologically or otherwise, to other organisations or individuals that are involved in any way in the carrying out of terrorist acts;
2.7 This amended provision narrows section 10(2)’s application to those organisations which truly promote democracy or human rights, and have no identifiable link to terrorist acts or other organisations that carry them out. Such an amended provision prevents the exception applying to political and social wings of terrorist organisations which are inextricably linked (financially, ideologically or otherwise) to their military wing counterparts involved in the commission of terrorist acts.
3 SECTION 13
COMMENT
3.0 Section 13 outlines the offence for participation in a terrorist organisation. While this offence is straightforward in its operation, we are concerned with the mens rea aspect of the offence. Under section 13, it is an offence to knowingly participate in a terrorist organisation. No provision is made under this section for reckless intent, whereas in section 13A, the offence is satisfied if there is either knowing or reckless intent. It is noted that the crime of participation in a terrorist organisation (section 13) carries a penalty of imprisonment not exceeding fourteen years in prison, whereas the crime of harbouring or concealing terrorists (section 13A) carries a penalty of seven years imprisonment.
3.1 In New Zealand, the inclusion of an element of recklessness in a criminal statute has generally been interpreted by Courts as a subjective element. Generally, according to the Laws of New Zealand “an accused is reckless if, knowing that there is a risk that an event may result from the conduct or that a circumstance may exist, he or she takes that risk, and it is unreasonable to do so having regard to the degree and nature of the risk which he or she knows to be present” .
3.2 While there is strength in the argument that confining the application of this section to a specific intent mens rea of “knowingly participate” reflects the severity of the crime potentially warranting a maximum penalty of 14 years imprisonment, it can also, nonetheless, be argued with equal strength that curbing and eliminating participation in terrorist organisations by all necessary means is a primary and fundamental objective of both Resolution 1373 and the Act. Therefore, the absence of a mens rea element of recklessness could not only dilute the effectiveness of this provision, but also result in this provision of the Act being viewed as only in partial fulfilment of the mandatory obligations imposed by Resolution 1373. The inclusion of a recklessness element will strengthen and widen the scope of the provision to include those individuals who are aware, or ought to be aware, of the reasonable and foreseeable risk or consequences of participating in a terrorist organisation but, nevertheless, decide to participate in spite of that risk or consequences.
3.3 It should be noted that such an inclusion will have no effect on those individuals who negligently participate in a terrorist or associated organisation.
RECOMMENDATION
3.4 In our view, there are two approaches to amendment that can be taken. The first approach adds an additional mens rea element of recklessness to the offence, with no further changes. The second approach creates a new offence for the reckless participation in a terrorist or associated entity under a separate and less severe penalty regime.
First approach
3.5 Under this approach, section 13 would be amended to add a mens rea element of recklessness to the offence. The new section 13 would read:
13 Participating in terrorist groups-
(1) A person commits an offence who participates in a group or organisation for the purpose stated in subsection (2), knowing or being reckless as to whether, that the group or organisation is-
a. an entity that is for the time being designated under the Act as a terrorist entity; or
b. an entity that carries out, or participates in the carrying out of, 1 or more terrorist acts.
(2) The purpose referred to in subsection (1) is to enhance the ability of an entity (being an entity of the kind referred to in subsection (1)(a) or (b)) to carry out, or participate in the carrying out of, 1or more terrorist acts.
(3) A person who commits an offence against subsection (1) is liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years. (Emphasis added)
Second Approach
3.6 An alternative approach could be the creation of a new offence for the reckless participation in terrorist organisations. This provision would be identical to section 13, except that the mens rea element of “knowingly” would be replaced by an element of recklessness. Subsection (3) of the new offence would provide for a sentencing provision not exceeding seven years (which is consistent with section 13A, which similarly applies recklessness). The new provision would read:
13AA Reckless participating in terrorist groups-
(1) A person commits an offence who participates in a group or organisation for the purpose stated in subsection (2), being reckless as to whether that the group or organisation is-
a. an entity that is for the time being designated under the Act as a terrorist entity; or
b. an entity that carries out, or participates in the carrying out of, 1 or more terrorist acts.
(2) The purpose referred to in subsection (1) is to enhance the ability of an entity (being an entity of the kind referred to in subsection (1)(a) or (b)) to carry out, or participate in the carrying out of, 1or more terrorist acts.
(3) A person who commits an offence against subsection (1) is liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years. (Emphasis added)
You can find the terrorism Suppression Act 2002 at www.legislation.govt.nz
Cheers
Can't have too much gold, thanks i'll take it. :)
TOMMY
Maybe you should get with some of the Iraqis who ran away from saddam[FOUND IN A HOLE DON'T SHOOT I'M A YELLOW COWARD] And get some press time speak at some schools and talk about how the Monsters are to not be followed it will just bring doom Talk to the saudis they want to change their look after all how did their meeting go with South America in their plot against America??
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the couse to Victory[FREEDOM] to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat let not the World be Deceived by them Amen
PS
Cuba has a black mulsum woman wanted for killing a State Trooper the USA has offered 1,000,000 but Cuba says no??
It just does not get any better Cross, my hat is off to you. You sure have shown me!
Yours humbly
Thomas
Catherine:
TOMMY Maybe you should get with some of the Iraqis who ran away from saddam[FOUND IN A HOLE DON'T SHOOT I'M A YELLOW COWARD] And get some press time speak at some schools and talk about how the Monsters are to not be followed it will just bring doom Talk to the saudis they want to change their look after all how did their meeting go with South America in their plot against America??
An excellent suggestion. There is a fairly large Iraqi poulation here in New Zealand, many of which fled Saddam's regime. They have been very supportive of the war in Iraq, even members of the Iraqi muslim community. That is somewhat encouraging.
We do get press here ocassionally. However a Muslim organisation called FIANZ tends to dominate all things Muslim here. FIANZ is the NZ version of CAIR.
We have been in touch with some Iraqi's in New Zealand. The last two weeks there has been a major governmental cover-up. The NZ government actually granted refugee status to two members of Saddam's regime. I have been in touch with the Iraqi Orthodox Christian community, who have suffered greatly under Saddam, and will be presenting submissions to teh government calling for the immediate removal of these two Baathists. Refugee law however will make this a difficult road.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Catherine:
TOMMY Maybe you should get with some of the Iraqis who ran away from saddam[FOUND IN A HOLE DON'T SHOOT I'M A YELLOW COWARD] And get some press time speak at some schools and talk about how the Monsters are to not be followed it will just bring doom Talk to the saudis they want to change their look after all how did their meeting go with South America in their plot against America??
An excellent suggestion. There is a fairly large Iraqi poulation here in New Zealand, many of which fled Saddam's regime. They have been very supportive of the war in Iraq, even members of the Iraqi muslim community. That is somewhat encouraging.
We do get press here ocassionally. However a Muslim organisation called FIANZ tends to dominate all things Muslim here. FIANZ is the NZ version of CAIR.
We have been in touch with some Iraqi's in New Zealand. The last two weeks there has been a major governmental cover-up. The NZ government actually granted refugee status to two members of Saddam's regime. I have been in touch with the Iraqi Orthodox Christian community, who have suffered greatly under Saddam, and will be presenting submissions to teh government calling for the immediate removal of these two Baathists. Refugee law however will make this a difficult road.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Catherine:
TOMMY Maybe you should get with some of the Iraqis who ran away from saddam[FOUND IN A HOLE DON'T SHOOT I'M A YELLOW COWARD] And get some press time speak at some schools and talk about how the Monsters are to not be followed it will just bring doom Talk to the saudis they want to change their look after all how did their meeting go with South America in their plot against America??
An excellent suggestion. There is a fairly large Iraqi poulation here in New Zealand, many of which fled Saddam's regime. They have been very supportive of the war in Iraq, even members of the Iraqi muslim community. That is somewhat encouraging.
We do get press here ocassionally. However a Muslim organisation called FIANZ tends to dominate all things Muslim here. FIANZ is the NZ version of CAIR.
We have been in touch with some Iraqi's in New Zealand. The last two weeks there has been a major governmental cover-up. The NZ government actually granted refugee status to two members of Saddam's regime. I have been in touch with the Iraqi Orthodox Christian community, who have suffered greatly under Saddam, and will be presenting submissions to teh government calling for the immediate removal of these two Baathists. Refugee law however will make this a difficult road.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Catherine:
TOMMY Maybe you should get with some of the Iraqis who ran away from saddam[FOUND IN A HOLE DON'T SHOOT I'M A YELLOW COWARD] And get some press time speak at some schools and talk about how the Monsters are to not be followed it will just bring doom Talk to the saudis they want to change their look after all how did their meeting go with South America in their plot against America??
An excellent suggestion. There is a fairly large Iraqi poulation here in New Zealand, many of which fled Saddam's regime. They have been very supportive of the war in Iraq, even members of the Iraqi muslim community. That is somewhat encouraging.
We do get press here ocassionally. However a Muslim organisation called FIANZ tends to dominate all things Muslim here. FIANZ is the NZ version of CAIR.
We have been in touch with some Iraqi's in New Zealand. The last two weeks there has been a major governmental cover-up. The NZ government actually granted refugee status to two members of Saddam's regime. I have been in touch with the Iraqi Orthodox Christian community, who have suffered greatly under Saddam, and will be presenting submissions to teh government calling for the immediate removal of these two Baathists. Refugee law however will make this a difficult road.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Sorry for repeat posting. I am still shellshocked from Cross's intelligent and effective arguments.
Thomas,
Oh come now “lil buckaroo”, things will pick for you. Just hang in there buddy.
Sympathetically yours,
TOMMY
I like your law thing and coming from a mulsum you may have some weight to it!
Hope it works!
But remember you country gave a bed to ex-nazis 60 yrs ago??
Part of the American Tribe
Spider Killer
Squirrel Hunter
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them
PS
Good Luck TOMMY!!
Thomas, you have a remarkable ability to keep your cool. That is appreciated.
Cheers Carolyn and Catherine.
Cheers to you to Cross...
Cheers Carolyn and Catherine.
Cheers to you to Cross...
I am worried however that some posters on this site fail to distinguish between peaceful Muslims and violent Muslims. I appreciate that it is not always easy to tell, but nonetheless such distinguishment should be strived for.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Thomas - Lets get this straight once and for all!
I don't believe you should be deported - but rather - your Koran should be.
Once that decision can be made by the supreme court [of which the U.S. constitution is going to come first]
then let the U.S. government officials decide what to do about those who refuse to give it up.
[and deportation - is better - it's humane - is better than the laws that already exist for those who commit treason] Note: I did not write those laws.
Those who STILL want to live under Islam will be VERY VERY VERY few here in the U.S. - after the writings are thoroughly investigated and exposed.
These are a very good example of what I'm talking about - they drive home the message well - for most:
023.056 Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or the captives whom their right hands possess,- for in their case they are free from blame
033.050 O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated from Makka with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers at large
033.051 Thou mayest defer the turn of any of them that thou pleasest, and thou mayest receive any thou pleasest: and there is no blame on thee if thou invite one whose turn thou hadst set aside. This were nigher to the cooling of their eyes, the prevention of their grief, and their satisfaction - that of all of them - with that which thou hast to give them
Pay close attention to this following:
033.052 It is not lawful for thee to marry more women after this, nor to change them for other wives, even though their beauty attract thee, ''''except any thy right hand should possess'''' as handmaidens
They are permitted to trade back and forth the ones they took as prisoners of war [after killing their men] - as though they are merchandise for having their way with them. [justifiable mass rape]
Now Thomas - how many American women do you think are going to stand for that?
let alone of the American men going into a rage like no other - that their daughters could fall under such a threat?
Seriously Thomas - what kind of a person does it take to support - protect - and defend laws such as those?
Do you?
Beth:
I don't believe you should be deported - but rather - your Koran should be.
If you honestly believe this then what you should be doing is getting together with likeminded people, and actually work towards it. Start lobbying local politicians, congressman. If this is the path you want to go, then you should be lobbying law and policy makers. There are like minded people here who would support you I am sure. And you have all of the tools you need.
Seriously Thomas - what kind of a person does it take to support - protect - and defend laws such as those?
I do not support Islamic law nor defend it. I support the separation of Islam and the state/law. That is why the development of a new tafsir, along the lines of what I have been talking about, would help solve the problem. Relegating Islam and the Qur'an to the "personal" as Ibn Waraq has stated many times is what is required. Developing new interpretational approaches to the Qur'an is the answer. FMAT is developing this.
Once that decision can be made by the supreme court [of which the U.S. constitution is going to come first] then let the U.S. government officials decide what to do about those who refuse to give it up.
Actually, the likely scenario is that the President would issue an executive order, then the Supreme Court would confirm whether the order was constititutional, not the other way round.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
I do not support Islamic law nor defend it.
Thomas? Those were DIRECTLY from the Koran.
How then - can you call yourself a Muslim?
What would be the point?
I support the separation of Islam and the state/law.
Thomas? Which state? name it.
Easily Beth, as I have repeated I take a non-literal approach.
Thomas? Which state? name it.
Any state...
Cheers
Thomas
I take a non-literal approach.
Thomas?
Do you have a daughter? or a wife?
Don't answer that - but just think.
Now why is there no RAGE coming from you? to protect them?
Well Thomas - The U.S. Constitution covers ALL states of the United States.
They are permitted to trade back and forth the ones they took as prisoners of war [after killing their men] - as though they are merchandise for having their way with them. [justifiable mass rape]
Why does that not ENRAGE you Thomas?
I do have a wife (Anglican-Christian). I will protect my family with my life. the Qur'an should not be taken literally, read my above post with JTF.
Cheers
Thomas
By marching under the title 'Muslim' you are helping those laws - Just because they come DIRECTLY from the Koran and Islam can not be separated from it.
No Koran - No Islam.
When I say state I refer to a nation. Similar to the phrase spearatiopn of church and state. By state, I mean generically as nation.
Why does that not ENRAGE you Thomas?
I am enraged. That is why I am working towards change.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Beth:
You are entitled to your opinion. Islam will be what we make of it through non-literalism.
Yours sincerly
Thomas
Thomas, you're submission to the NZ parliament is lacking one thing - and if your serious about fighting terrorism you should include something along the lines of:-
a) The Free Muslim Coalition Against terrorism hereby recognizes that the Koran is not the infallible word of god, nor are the Hadiths.
b) Terrorists are inspired by both the Koran and Hadiths in their present form. As such, all governmental bodies and institutions of learning will teach the populace that these books, in their original form, encourage hate, killing and subjugation of non Muslims. We of the Free Muslim Coalition liken the Koran to Mien Kampf.
c) As such the Koran needs to be re written, to leave out the verses inciting hate, killing and subjugation.
d) Any Muslim professing their faith in the Koran as written by Mohammed’s scribe (after all the guy was illiterate!) is guilty of treason and war against New Zealand and her allies.
Thomas until you re write the Koran – the killing, rape and murder done in Allah’s name will continue.
3rdtimelucky:
The submission dealt with a statutory review of the TSA. Submissions have to be limited in focus. There will be an appropriate time to discuss some of these aspects you mentioned, when I present them before the Committss. They have given me 40 minutes to speak. There will be time to expand and further develop other arguments. Their is also a Anti-Terror select committee which will be conveing in three months. I will hoepfully get to present before that Commitee.
Yours sincerely
thomas
Thomas - my God loves me - I don't have to "submit" to Him, as you do to Allah. In fact he loves me so much, he died for me.
Any Muslim professing their faith in the Koran as written by Mohammed’s scribe (after all the guy was illiterate!) is guilty of treason and war against New Zealand and her allies.
Treason is a specific legal offence. Mere belief or faith in the Qur'an generally (without action) cannot by definition constitue a criminal offence. However, anyone acting against the state, in reliance upon the Qur'an would be guilty of difference.
Cheers
Thomas
Correction: The last word should be treason.
Isn't it funny how the Muslims always harp on about the Crusades - thats a long way to go back to critique the West, a very long way back.
I only have to go to JW to see the latest wrong that Muslims have commited, or Bali, or Beslan, or 9/11, or Kenya, or Turkey or the Sudan, or Rawanda, or Nigeria, or........
"Treason is a specific legal offence. Mere belief or faith in the Qur'an generally (without action) cannot by definition constitue a criminal offence" -
My goodness Thomas - do you live on this site?? Anyway, yes you are correct, mere belief is not enough, action must follow - thats why I used the word profess - which might not be treason - but it is sedition - either way an offence (or at least used to be before "all roads lead to heaven Multiculturalism"). A case of semantics - but I'm sure all with half a brain reading this know what I'm getting at.
3rdtimelucky - I'm repeating these - have something I want to add:
Thomas, you're submission to the NZ parliament is lacking one thing - and if your serious about fighting terrorism you should include something along the lines of:-
a) The Free Muslim Coalition Against terrorism hereby recognizes that the Koran is not the infallible word of god, nor are the Hadiths.
b) Terrorists are inspired by both the Koran and Hadiths in their present form. As such, all governmental bodies and institutions of learning will teach the populace that these books, in their original form, encourage hate, killing and subjugation of non Muslims. We of the Free Muslim Coalition liken the Koran to Mien Kampf.
c) As such the Koran needs to be re written, to leave out the verses inciting hate, killing and subjugation.
d) Any Muslim professing their faith in the Koran as written by Mohammed’s scribe (after all the guy was illiterate!) is guilty of treason and war against New Zealand and her allies.
Thomas until you re write the Koran – the killing, rape and murder done in Allah’s name will continue. {BINGO!!!!
Thomas - it's not like this march is going to place in Saudi Arabia.
It's taking place in the capitol of the United States.
A nation where you could JUST as easily organize a march against that which teaches MASS RAPE.
3rdtimelucky?
we are told - we shall know them by their fruits.
ask your husband - brothers - uncles - cousins - and so on - JUST to see if their response - matches Thomas'
Thomas - putting one line in about how the Koran is wrong, will not take up valuabe space. You yourself said there should be debate - Daniel Scot tried and was convicted of Orwellian "Hate" crimes, yet you say you support him.
You have accused others in this thread of "hiding behaind a computer". Well Thomas, put your money where your mouth is and put the line in your submission about how the Koran is wrong. One line Thomas, thats all I, and I'm sure many readers here ask. One line Thomas. Show us that you are serious.
Daniel Scot was serious, are you?
And as far as you throwing it right back me to do so? organize a march?
That STILL doesn't excuse you for marching in defense of MASS RAPE
And that is EXACTLY what you are doing anytime it is under the title 'Muslim' or 'Koran'
Because without the Koran - there is no Islam.
NO matter how much you wish it weren't so
You are supporting a vicious crime on a scale like no other - with the very first stomp you take!
3rd time:
It is not enough merely to profess faith in the Qur'an. One must profess faith to Jihad and act on that profession. Crimes require a mens rea (intent) and actus reus (action). Belief alone is never enough. But, in my view anyone who believes that Jihad is legitimate, even without acting, is committing a crime.
Cheers
Thomas
Beth - I do ask my brothers, sisters, family and friends. 90% of them are apathetic and believe the lies that our government spews out (yet they freely admit that our pollies lie). Some I have shown the truth - simply by showing them my copy of the Koran, and they are horrified.
But the majority don't care, or don't want to know. Or they know some Muslim, who is as friendly as Whinnie the Pooh, and they refuse to believe what the Koran says (the reason I have a copy - so I can show them). I am always careful to explain that like most Christians don't read or study their Bible, neither do many Muslims.
The ones who do though, and are serious, end up flying planes into buildings - and then I back this up with current home grown cases. It makes them think.
Well Thomas, put your money where your mouth is and put the line in your submission about how the Koran is wrong. One line Thomas, thats all I, and I'm sure many readers here ask. One line Thomas. Show us that you are serious.
I support Daniel Scot and have worked very hard in this country to help ensure that similar laws are not passed. Incidentally one of the strongest opponents of the Bill was a Muslim MP, Ashrof Choudharry who also voted in favur of civil unions and prostitution. And I will also take up your rpevious suggestion to me, 3rd time.
I have already forwarded this submission. When I speak before the Committee, you can be rest assured I will be discussing further measures that need to be taken. As far as the amendment you ask me to make, I cannot do so for these submissions. The anti-terrorism select committee will be the appropriate committee. And then, I would explain that the Qur'an and its historical and contemporary interpretation along with Islamic tradition need to be sourced as the catalyst for threats facing New Zealand. I will reiterate that FMAT will work towards change.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Thomas, you're not a Muslim. You are a Christian. You heart is open to the spirit of God. You don't worship a God who spoke for the last time in 7th century Arabia.
Muslims are so anal about the unedited status of the Quran. If the spirit deceiving Muhammad was Satan, the Quran contains unrevised words of the devil. The false prophet’s words remain unchanged to guide more people to hell. Muslims will only be receptive to God's message when they throw out that particular book.
Muslims accept they can be tempted by Satan but Allah is stuck in a 7th century time warp and cannot speak any language other than ancient Arabic - which is bit odd for an all powerful God.
Hi Thomas - the Koran is not only Jihad. Its also rape, slavery, killing. It say you believe in it, or practice it, one could argue, is sedition. But as you legal types say, a "moot" point.
If you do say want you reckon to the commitee - I applaud you - and I also hope for your safety that your fellow Muslims concur.
It needs to be in writing - words come and go, and they can be disowned.
As long as the Koran exists, there will be terrorism and physical war against the infidel.
Muslims are not the problem. The Koran is the problem, as is the life of Mohammed who wrote it.
"Ashrof Choudharry who also voted in favur of civil unions and prostitution" - very liberal.
But that said - prostitution = temporary marraige.
Who here on earth can profess to be Allah's interpreter to determine which verses in the Koran are literal and which ones are not? The Pope does that for the Catholics - and look at how many Popes have had it wrong down through the ages.
Gods word should speak to the heart, the spirit, not via some Pope, Mufti or academic.
But that said - prostitution = temporary marraige
He did not see it that way. He voted for the prostitution bill because he thought it would improve the lives of women sex workers, who were being abused under its prohibition. He did so reluctantly. He also supported the civil union bill, and stated publicly that while he did not agree with a homosexual lifestyle, that same sex couples do deserve recognition. It was a very brave thing for him to do. The Muslim community despises him here, and yethe stands firm as a Labour MP. I am a National supporter, but I give him respect for what he has done.
Who here on earth can profess to be Allah's interpreter to determine which verses in the Koran are literal and which ones are not? The Pope does that for the Catholics - and look at how many Popes have had it wrong down through the ages. Gods word should speak to the heart, the spirit, not via some Pope, Mufti or academic.
I agree.
Cheers Thomas
I agree - a very brave thing for him to do.
You agree with the comment re interpreting? Yes? So what do you suggest to do with the Koran then? If people read it, and let the spirit that wrote it speak to them, some see Jihad as "spiritual", others read the whole book and see it as a command to kill etc.
So what to do with the Koran Thomas? Education will only "stall" the problem that the Koran presents, or worse, open the verses up to more abuse with the people doing the educating pulling all the strings.
So what do you suggest re the Koran?
I agree with you. But my solution would be as I mentioned earlier, a new tafsir. Tafis is the most important tool in interpreting the Qur'an. A new and authoratative one is desperately needed that explains the Qur'an, and relegates its violence to history and its context. A new tafsir needs to explain that the violent verses in the Qur'an were time specific and have no place in modernity. The new tafsir can use history as its example citing Islam's so called just wars and their real results. A new tafsir would create new methods of Qur'anic interpretation. Religious texts are similar to laws. Applying simple principles of statutory interpretation, taking into account extrinsic evidence (ie history) would aid in forming a new tafsir. I think...
Of course it would be best if this were not necessary. But the Qur'an is riddled with contraditions and ambiguities. Those ambiguities need and contradictions need to be resolved. Tafsir is a way to approach the problem, but certainly more is required. Revision and'or ommission of violence, terror and misogny obviously would be ideal.
It has been a pleasure speaking with you all today. I have been doing this for two days non-stop. I must take a few days off until after the rally. Cheers everyone.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
tafsir = I can only assume that is some book/guide that interprets the Koran. In other words a modern "hadith"/ or some type of interpretation. That’s what you hint at (you made reference to seeing the nasty bits as time specific = your interpretation)
Anyway - who has Allah appointed to write this "tafsir"? Who is the fallible, sinful man/s or woman who's going to deal with gods 'perfect' word? And as this interpreter is sinful, how do we know that their interpretation is correct? Will it then need more reinterpretation?
Obviously you want to keep the Koran, but with this new "tafsir" to keep the hate verses under control, and bring it into the 21st Cent.
While that is very admirable Thomas - you still have the same problem - you are only postponing it.
That is, for argument sake, lets assume the new "tafsir" is done. All see the ugly verses as time specific.
This lasts for 5, maybe 10 years until some other knowledgeable Muslim writes a new "tafsir", saying how the hate verses really do apply, the way Bin laden applies them now.
Like I said Thomas - if the Koran is really from god - it does not need any interpretation at all, for if you rely on a fallible man to interpret it, mistakes are bound to happen. No matter what word you use for interpretation.
One should be able to read it and see gods message with no interpretation. Surely if Allah created the world he could give us a message that doesn't need interpretation or tafsir?
We all agree that God is one of love and peace - so you would expect His followers to emulate the same, as would His text, with or without interpretation.
While I don't understand the word "tafsir" - its obvious by what you have written that its some type of interpretation of the Koran. Yet above you say we don't need a Pope or Mufti or cleric to interpret? Who then will "tafsir"? God himself in the flesh maybe? It can’t be a sinful person – we cannot be relied upon.
Again - if gods word needs man to interpret it - and man cannot see gods word without a fallible man interpreting it - then quite frankly, how can it be gods word?
Thomas,
I find it interesting how you mentioned that in theory Islam allows for Muslims to use Jesus as a role model (I presume one equal to Mohammad) since all prophets are equal.
However I also find this very confusing. The Koran states that the Christian texts (where the vast bulk of references to Jesus’ teachings occur) are corrupted and that the only truly divine and uncorrupted religious text is the Koran. Also the Koran is very deficient in references to Jesus’ teachings about peace and love taking pre-eminence over other divine commandments. Also there is the reference in the Koran that states that Mohammad is the greatest prophet and that what he claimed god told him is the "final seal" in terms of god’s divine commandments.
In such a situation how can a Muslim really practice Jesus teachings as stated in the bible at all? I just can't see how it is possible unless he/she wants to deviate from the teachings of the Koran and therefore, according to other Muslims, become an apostate.
Damn, just missed him.
What a thread!
Shukri, re your Jesuit friend and his doubts about the New Testament, you seem to be like a man who reached into a cookie jar, pulled a mouse out by the tail, pondered its angry squeaking, and concluded, "I found it in the cookie jar, ergo, it has to be a cookie,"--then swallowed it (even if a living mouse is far from halal, I understand).
By the way, when you said you "submitted to the US government" in another post, do I take it you became a citizen? If so, welcome to the New World.
Thomas, I appreciate and admire your calm manner, but have concluded that your are no Muslim, but either a Quaker or a Roger Williams-type seeker.
However, rock-ribbed Christian fundamentalist though I be, when the Psalm says that the mountains skipped liked rams when Israel exited Egypt, I simply take it as an expression of great joy; not that the mountains grew legs. Similarly, when Jesus said he is the Door of the Sheep (John 10), I don['t think He had a bronze handle and swung on hinges. You'll have to do better than the old cliche about "literalism".
Isn't it funny how the Muslims always harp on about the Crusades - thats a long way to go back to critique the West, a very long way back.
3rdtimelucky? But there is a difference in which no man can deny - because Both the Koran and the New Testament are available to all.
The Crusaders can not point to their Book - and say - "SEE? It says so"
Thomas:
It looks as though you may not check back to this thread; if not, I'll re-post this whenever you reappear.
I'm struck by an inconsistency in all your arguments. You seem to be on our side, yet you studied islam for FIVE YEARS at the most qur'anically literal-based institution in the world. It is impossible to believe that, in all that time and with all that study, you were unable to comprehend EXACTLY what islam is all about - you weren't studying the "five pillars" for five years, were you? I can't help but believe that you knew exactly what you were getting into at the time and that you accepted it completely. At some subsequent point - perhaps after 9/11 - you woke up and became disillusioned with the islamofascistic ideology that you had so wholeheartedly bought into. So in a vain attempt to salvage the lost years and efforts of your life, you are attempting to change the unchangeable - as many have pointed out, the tenets of islam as they now stand will ALWAYS be ripe for exploitation by anyone who cares to rely on its 1350 year history. That will never go away. What odds would you give yourself if you had completed seminary, become a priest, and embarked upon a mission to entirely remake Catholic doctrine? How about as a lay person, which would increase the level of difficulty, and is essentially what you are in islam? How do you think that would work out for you?
You will no doubt be offended by my armchair analysis of your history; I ask you to put that aside and consider the points I made.
As an American, why do you continue to reside in New Zealand (a real hotbed of jihad activity - NOT)? If you are really committed to anti-jihadism, the fight is here, or in Europe (hence the location of your upcoming March). You've mentioned all the hate-filled sermons at mosques - why aren't you addressing them HERE, where there are so many more and where your potential impact could be greater? We have known jihadi cells in THIS COUNTRY - why are you so far distant from where the battle against islamofascism really needs to - and will - be fought, especially if you still love your country and want to save it? Why are you not working with the AMERICAN government on anti-terrorism? You claim to be an American yet the Great Country of your birth is not your immediate priority, although the need is far greater here than in NZ. Granted, you are probably far safer from the jihadist wrath of your co-cultists re a WMD where you are, yet until your boots are on the ground full-time fighting the battle in this country you are still not fully engaged and doing all that you could.
Lastly, in my opinion you have something to gain personally by reading the works of St. Catherine of Sienna. I'm not going to post a link because it's probably a complete waste of my time and if you're at all interested or curious, a selection can easily be found online. I'm not trying to influence you religiously - you've made and will continue to make your choices.
I'm only the Messenger.
CGW to Thomas
What odds would you give yourself if you had completed seminary, become a priest, and embarked upon a mission to entirely remake Catholic doctrine?
CGW?
It would be futile
Not to mention that the teachings in the New Testament were NEVER an issue - but rather - the "thees'" and "thous" which has prompted people to want to update it - but NEVER did the teachings ever threaten the survival of mankind
I had a colelge president/professor (still alive, still active, about 88) tell us once, "if you really believed what you say you beleive, you'd be in the streets, stopping traffic to get people to hear YOUR TRUTH."
Gina - the 'terrorists' aren't stopping traffic - they're blowing it up!
They believe in what their Koran says - and are proving it with acts that stun all others who see.
If you support Muslim women in having the right to wear coverings out in public [and the Koran does command it of them] aren't you also supporting the 'terrorists' who blow up others?
Gina - what does anything that you had to say have to do with the preachings of the Koran?
Are you not able to figure out - that if those teachings are fed to the young that all will reap what was sown?
It is everyone's duty to condemn those teachings!
They VIOLATE FAR MORE than just hurting someone's feelings.
Just ask the children who cried when they had to be told - mommy or daddy won't be coming home anymore - after the of the twin towers.
Gina said:
You have a right to bash me here, erroneously
Let us define erroneous:
Containing or derived from error; mistaken:
I pointed out the Truth - that there is a nightmare that exists in Islam for all non-Muslim women:
The Muslim men are permitted to trade back and forth the ones they take as prisoners of war [after killing their men] - as though they are merchandise just so they can have their way with them. [justifiable mass rape]
The men are to be slaughtered [until the land is thoroughly subdued 008.067 ] and their wives and daughters raped by Muslim men - as they please.
And you are mad at me???????????????
Gina
You are wrong about doing nothing
MORE ISLAMIC TERRORIST DEAD TODAY!!
It is on the Minds of Americans that is why our last Ele went the way it did!!
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WANT THE ELECTED TO DO WHAT BUSH WAS SAYING FIGHT IT OVER THERE SO WE DON'T HAVE TO FIGHT IT OVER HERE!!
YOU DON'T GET THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AT ALL. THERE ARE THINGS GOING ON BEHIND CLOSED DOORS YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT NOR SHOULD YOU!!!
NO IT IS LIKE THE POLICE WHO PROTROLE THE STREETS EVERY DAY DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING IF NOT ON THE NEWS AT 6 I'D BET NOT??
BUT YOU HAVE YOUR ANTI WAR PROTEST BUT IF YOU THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WOULD NOT LOCK UP EVERY MULSUM IN THIS COUNTRY IF ANOTHER ATTACK EVER HAPPENS YOU ARE LIVING IN A FAIRY TALE LAND !!!
THE MORJORTY WE LIKE TO SAY THE QUITE ARE AWARE AND KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON AND THEY AINT HAPPY ABOUT THE MULSUMS SUPPORT FOR THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST THE BUTTS ARE NO LONGER IN THE AIR THOSE BUTTS GOT SHOOT OFF!!
THE LIBS ARE EVEN COMING AROUND TO UNDERSTAND THE DANGER??
NO JUST BECAUSE THE PEOPLE ARE NOT IN THE STREETS SCREAMING DOES NOT MEAN THEY AREN'T LOADED AND READY!!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN
This post is in response to a post by CGW from a previous thread. I wanted to make sure my response was received. Sorry for being off topic.
Cheers
I know I promised not to post again until after the rally. I revisted the thread and soted your fair questions CGW:
"I'm struck by an inconsistency in all your arguments. You seem to be on our side, yet you studied islam for FIVE YEARS at the most qur'anically literal-based institution in the world."
I converted to Islam at Al-Azhar, I did not undertake a comprehensive study there. My formal Islamic education is rooted in Orientalist thought.
It is impossible to believe that, in all that time and with all that study, you were unable to comprehend EXACTLY what islam is all about - you weren't studying the "five pillars" for five years, were you? I can't help but believe that you knew exactly what you were getting into at the time and that you accepted it completely. At some subsequent point - perhaps after 9/11 - you woke up and became disillusioned with the islamofascistic ideology that you had so wholeheartedly bought into. So in a vain attempt to salvage the lost years and efforts of your life, you are attempting to change the unchangeable - as many have pointed out, the tenets of islam as they now stand will ALWAYS be ripe for exploitation by anyone who cares to rely on its 1350 year history.
Fair question CGW. Of course I was aware of the troubling aspects of Islam. But the Islam that I was exposed to in my personal life was different. I associated with Qur'anics... those who reject Sunnah and tradition and view the Qur'an as a guideline, not a literal legal document. It is impossible to take the Qur'an in itself literally in my view, there are too many inconsistencies and contradictions. I did not "wake up" after 9/11. I was keenly aware of the problems beforehand and throughout my study. Studying Islamic history and literature, 9/11, or something like it was expected. What I am arguing is not the prefect solution. However abandoing Sunnah, which is not the word of God, but man made traditions, and adapting a new interpretational approach to the Qur'an would fundamentally change the landscape. The tools are there. I know I should flush this out for you a bit more, however I am working and cannot explain further. (Email me at haidon@justice.com for a better explanation.)
As an American, why do you continue to reside in New Zealand (a real hotbed of jihad activity - NOT)? If you are really committed to anti-jihadism, the fight is here, or in Europe (hence the location of your upcoming March). You've mentioned all the hate-filled sermons at mosques - why aren't you addressing them HERE, where there are so many more and where your potential impact could be greater? We have known jihadi cells in THIS COUNTRY - why are you so far distant from where the battle against islamofascism really needs to - and will - be fought, especially if you still love your country and want to save it? Why are you not working with the AMERICAN government on anti-terrorism? You claim to be an American yet the Great Country of your birth is not your immediate priority, although the need is far greater here than in NZ.
I am in New Zealand because I married a New Zealand woman that I love who wanted to remain in New Zealand. That was a difficult decision to make. But from New Zealand, I am helping the fight against terror in the United States. I am working with FMAT to develop solutions laregely to address the American Islamic problem.
After 9/11, in October I returned to Cairo to tkae a months worth of Arabic courses. I then applied to the FBI to put my skills and background to use (unfortunately my Arabic was not quite there yet, and I made it pretty far, but not to the end). I also applied to be a special agent with the FBI in January 2002. Unfortunately in April I decided I would be moving to New Zealand and decided that I would not pursue the application further. I lost two friends on 9/11. I will never forget or forgive. Every Western country by the way is on the front lines of the War on Terror. New Zealand is no different. Islamism has permeated avery democratic nation without exception. I am working very hard here, and will be appearing before Parliament to discuss the problems associated with NZ's weak counter-terrorism legislation, among other things.
If a tragedy besets the US again however I will return with my wife to use my background and skills to help fight the menace we are facing, whether in the military or government. For the moment however, terrorism is not a uniquely American problem, it is a problem menacing the entire non-Muslim world, including New Zealand.
Lastly, in my opinion you have something to gain personally by reading the works of St. Catherine of Sienna. I'm not going to post a link because it's probably a complete waste of my time and if you're at all interested or curious, a selection can easily be found online.
I am familiar with her and her writings. But as you have asked I will investigate a bit further.
Yours sincerely
Thomas
Thomas:
Thank you for your response.
"If a tragedy besets the US again however I will return with my wife to use my background and skills to help fight the menace we are facing, whether in the military or government. For the moment however, terrorism is not a uniquely American problem, it is a problem menacing the entire non-Muslim world, including New Zealand."
By that time it may be too late, especially for all those "secular" muslims that you're so concerned about in this country. Terrible and previously unforeseen consequences may come to pass should another large-scale atrocity befall this nation, and if someone has even the slightest chance of preventing that from happening by undermining the underlying support for the jihadist infratructure via mobilizing "moderates", it should be done NOW, before a backlash sets in. Because it will, Thomas; of that you can be certain. I realize that terrorism is a worldwide problem, but you're watching the show from the back row of the theater. I understand your wife's decision and the struggle that must take place between your personal life and the work you were called to do; I wish you well but I also hope for your return to this country, to our "front lines".
Good Luck!
CGW