Is Allah God?

"Consider two alternate ways of translating the opening line of Islam’s basic declaration of faith (Arabic: la ilaha illa-la). One reads “I testify that there is no God but Allah,” and the other “I testify that there is no deity but God.” The first states that Islam has a distinct Lord, one known as Allah, and implies that Jews and Christians worship a false god. The second states that Allah is the Arabic word for the common monotheistic God and implies a commonality with Jews and Christians."

Everyone familiar with this site knows that stories about the life of Jesus in the Gospels are different, in just about every way, from stories about Mohammad in ahadith and sira. The moral examples and messages that can be gleaned from what is said about the lives of these men are worlds apart.

For those who are not convinced, or new to the site, and do not have the ambition to read a few hadith or the sira. Here just a few selections from the Sahih Bukhari, accepted by most Muslims as authoritative and accurate accounts of the works and deeds of the prophet, worthy of imitation by all Muslims:

Sorry about the long list. This small selection focuses on the heavenly rewards for being martyred on the battlefield and fighting for Allah. Could the contrast with the examples of Jesus in the Gospels be any more stark?

"Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." The questioner again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To perform Hajj (Pilgrim age to Mecca) 'Mubrur, (which is accepted by Allah and is performed with the intention of seeking Allah's pleasure only and not to show off and without committing a sin and in accordance with the traditions of the Prophet)."

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr). Had I not found it difficult for my followers, then I would not remain behind any sariya going for Jihad and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah's cause and then made alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred in His cause."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 46:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The example of a Mujahid in Allah's Cause-- and Allah knows better who really strives in His Cause----is like a person who fasts and prays continuously. Allah guarantees that He will admit the Mujahid in His Cause into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and war booty."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 47:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah's Apostle used to visit Um Haran bint Milhan, who would offer him reals. Um-Haram was the wife of Ubada bin As-Samit. Allah's Apostle, once visited her and she provided him with food and started looking for lice in his head. Then Allah's Apostle slept, and afterwards woke up smiling. Um Haran asked, "What causes you to smile, O Allah's Apostle?" He said. "Some of my followers who (in a dream) were presented before me as fighters in Allah's Cause (on board a ship) amidst this sea cause me to smile; they were as kings on the thrones (or like kings on the thrones)." (Ishaq, a sub-narrator is not sure as to which expression the Prophet used.)

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 49:

Narrated Samura:
The Prophet said, "Last night two men came to me (in a dream) and made me ascend a tree and then admitted me into a better and superior house, better of which I have never seen. One of them said, 'This house is the house of martyrs."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 50:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet said, "A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah's Cause in the forenoon or in the afternoon is better than the world and whatever is in it."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 53:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet said, "Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause)."
Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah's Cause in the afternoon or in the forenoon is better than all the world and whatever is in it. A place in Paradise as small as the bow or lash of one of you is better than all the world and whatever is in it. And if a houri from Paradise appeared to the people of the earth, she would fill the space between Heaven and the Earth with light and pleasant scent and her head cover is better than the world and whatever is in it."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 54:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is! Were it not for some men amongst the believers who dislike to be left behind me and whom I cannot provide with means of conveyance, I would certainly never remain behind any Sariya' (army-unit) setting out in Allah's Cause. By Him in Whose Hands my life is! I would love to be martyred in Al1ah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 58:

Narrated Jundab bin Sufyan:

In one of the holy Battles a finger of Allah's Apostle (got wounded and) bled. He said, "You are just a finger that bled, and what you got is in Allah's Cause."

Of course, there are many, many more. (Sorry for the long list.) The last text is revealing: the obsession with blood, martyrdom, and fighting for Allah in battle is so intense, that drops of blood from a finger in a battle are like a great treasure, jewels from heaven, objects of wonder. That is the way Muslims have traditionally viewed the opinion of this Mohammad, the prophet of Allah, the perfect man.

And wheresoever your treasure lies, there shall also your heart reside.

Islam was a retro-active religion that hijacked parts of previous faiths and confirmed
the prophetic warnings by Christ that a "False prophet" will come and claim to speak for your father in heaven,the Prophet will cite verses from past messages and try to fool the people that they got them from their Father in heaven.
The False prophet will promise Peace and atonement with God,but will only bring wars upon wars and pain and suffering.

Sound familiar,Muslim even lay claim to Jesus in the Quran so lets go to the source of the life of Jesus prior to the Quran,Sikhs believe their
book is the only credible account of God's words
since it was written recently and the book is still unchanged to prove it must be Gods word.

My God would never tell me to murder my brother or sister,and that means any Muslim,Sikh,Hindu,Jew,and all others related to me through my Father in heaven.
As for war,I will defend the innocent and if it means killing the killers,so be it,but lets no be naive and think that if we take the guns away from the police that the crime will stop.

NO ISLAM - KNOW GOD

allah, the Moon god
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

islam...worship the black stone?
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-meteorite-worship.htm

Is islam compatible with human rights?

http://knowislam.info/drupal/humanrights

"It is not actually Islamic doctrine that, as Pipes says, 'Moses and Jesus introduced mistakes to the Word of God.' Their followers did that."

Even I noticed this error. Pipes is a pretty decent (though rather opinionated) scholar. I am surprised at this careless oversight on his part.

"Many Arabic interjections that are used by Christians as well as Muslims feature the word 'Allah': 'Inshallah' (God willing),..."

Let's not overlook the Spanish expression, "Ojala" (hopefully). Though I can think of more than a few native speakers of Spanish that would not at all be pleased that they hoped for "Allah's" help when they said this!

Americans owe a lot to people like Daniel Pipes for exposing the terrorist infrastructure in America. Unfortunately (like his teacher Bernard Lewis) Pipes cannot criticize Islam because he is too beholden to his Muslim collaborators. The same could be said of Martin Kramer (another student of Lewis) and investigative journalist Steven Emerson. I hope that most Americans who are doing their homework on Islam will distinguish their valuable contributions from their misdirected deferrence to Islam.

List of sites with alternative views of islam
http://www.listislam.cjb.net/

I think that the islamic Allah would be the same that God, but nothing more, and it´s the same although they deny Christ, the trinity and the resurection, why? the jews deny all of these, and his God is our God.
But the question is, what appeared to Muhammad? an epilepsy? or the Father of Lies,namely Satan, I don´t know, but the second one is possible, because denying the divinity of Christ, fighting against christians, the symbol of moon like opposite of sun that is Christ and christianism. But there are several things that I don´t understand for my theory, the reason of the satanic verses or the negation of monoteism in islam, and the second the paper for the Virgin Mary, the Christ´s mother that in islam is the unique mother of prophet remembered, if they deny the divinity of Christ, why they give importance to his mother.
Islam has only terror, because theologically is weak, very weak. The problems, the great amount of perjudices of these people.
Greetings in Christ

From Beth's site, Bible vs. qur'an
http://palestinename.com/biblevkoran.htm

allah instructs his people to steal, kill and destroy. G-d of the Bible said that the enemy comes to steal, kill and destroy. I am convinced that islam is the religion of Satan, muslims call him allah, I call him devil.

Although God is changeless, man's conception of God changes over time.

Yahweh, as portrayed in the OT, is very similar to Allah. He was a tribal god, essentially. The Hebrew tribe took him into combat to battle with the Baals or the Caananites for example. But this concept of tribal diety gradually evolved to a God of all the earth and then God of all creation.

Along with that developed the concept of how man relates to God - first as a subject/king relationship and then to a child/father relationship - along with this came the universality of God the Father. This developed in Judaism, but was clarified by Jesus.

You can see the concept of God evolving in the Bible into the Universal Father Jews and Christians worship today. Allah is a throwback and an attempt to obliterate the more advanced Jewish and Christian teachings that advanced the God concept beyond the vengeful, wrathful, whimsical anthropomorhic God of old. Allah is no father. He is basically a king more or less.

But beyond that, Islam teaches that religion SHOULD NOT EVOLVE. So the God of Islam remains of the same base character of the very earliest human God conceptions. The God concept in Islam cannot change, which is different from saying that God is changeless.

Also, one thing puzzles me. When Muslims are required to pray to the correct name of the 99 names of God, otherwise their prayers won't be heard, isn't that praying to 99 different gods? If each "name" has a different function, isn't that the similar to the Christian Trinity concept? The three as one, the 99 as one? Am I missing something?

Best, Rebecca

Allah is probably a corruption of the moon god who was worshipped prior to Mohammed's arrival on the scene. It was easy enough to take that one over, as it was to continue with the race around the black stone.

Some scholars contend that M. wasn't real stable psychologically (not uncommon in a charismatic leader) and that he was deeply offended when he approached the local Jews with his understandings and interpretations of the Torah. They more or less dismissed him, and not very gently. Welll...woe unto them, huh? He ended up killing them all.

If there is one obvious thing about Mohammed it's that he's a revenge seeker. That shame/honor thing didn't begin with him but he certainly brought it to new depths.

What fascinates me about Islam is the surface level it maintains. It's all about technique, whether it be prayer or ritual or even thinking. Every jot and tittle and then some is accounted for. But no real moral theology, just rules. No systematic theology either. Just rules. And no ecclesiology. Just rules. As in Mohammed rules.

The whole moon god thing makes alot of sense to me being that it has been researched a thousand times over by many scholars and they all come to the same conclusion that allah is the moon god and the god of war and that he was the greatest of all the gods worshiped at the time by the Arabs. This is where Muhammad grew up and was surrounded by, but he was also influenced by the Jews of the time too. So Muhammad says that Gabriel spoke to him and he went forth to the Jews and said he was a prophet. They of course rejected him as they did most prophets, but Muhammad was different...he had a different agenda. He behaved like a typical man who had been insulted and waged war upon those who rejected him. There was no self sacrifice for the greater good of God...it was all about him...all about pride and he grew to hate the Jews. He smashed all the idols except Allah the big black rock. He was a man who used naivie men to achieve his goal...revenge. All based on pride...kinda like Lucifer...

OK Dymphna I just went to your webpage and read "Why Some of My Best Friends Are Anti-semites!" I think I might laugh the rest of the night...that was one of the funniest and most sarcastic articals I have ever read..Thanx for makin my day!

Daniel Pipes is a deluded dhimmi.

As the philosopher Eric Voegelin pointed out, one can understand Judaism and Christianity as representing a bifurcation off the single trunk of Israel. The branch of Israel later called Christianity eventually went on to universalize its ecumenical mission and vision, whereas the other branch, Judaism remained comparatively more self-contained and less eschatologically unstable and expansionist.

During the time that the branch of Israel we now call Christianity was coalescing through astounding intellectual and philosophical ferment and internal debate -- roughly the first 500 years after the death of Jesus -- a whole crop of heresies sprang up with various (often wacky) interpretations of Christ and Israel (with often also a lot of other multi-culturalist Greek, Roman and Egyptian polytheism thrown in as spice).

Some scholars see in the rise of Islam just another Judaeo-Christian heresy to add the list -- one of the last great heresies in this formative period, and probably the most spectacularly successful heresy of all. And the nature of heresies is to be both parasitic upon their host from which their eggs spawned, and to deform the nature of the original structure of the host from which they sucked the substantive nutrients that helped them grow.

On the theological question of "God" --

Christians regard Jesus Christ as God through the symbolism "Son of God", this being an essential part of the overall symbolism of the Trinity.

Islam considers the divinity of Jesus Christ to be not only incorrect, but blasphemous and vile.

Above the front doors of the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem (the second most revered mosque in all Islam outside of Mecca), is carved in stone this arrogant and direct repudiation of the Christian God: "God Has No Son". This has been carved on this mosque since the 8th century. This message on the Al-Aqsa Mosque should be a clear enough refutation of the New Agey pop theology upon which Daniel Pipes seems to base his amusing argument.

Of course Allah is NOT God. Just like Islam is not a religion, it is a cult and just like Muhammad was not a Prophet, but a charismatic megalomaniac cut from the same cloth as Stalin and Hitler and Saddam Hussein.

It incenses me that so many people on this planet have been stupid and misguided enough to follow such a hate-filled cult over the centuries, but history has proven that the bigger the lie, the more people will believe in it.

Foehammer

I would almost argue that all Christians should be referring to the god of the Bible as either Yaweh or its english translation "I AM" or a respective language's translation in order to set itself apart from the totally different god of Islam, and to counter the typical agnostic argument that Allah and God are the same thing. Isn't the name Yaweh ("I AM") used more than 5,000 times in the OT anyways?

Mental refreshment, but of a sober sort, after watching someone on television positively hallucinating about "winning" some "war on terror" by sticking it out in a country called "Iraq" where there are citizens who think of themselves as "Iraqis" and who are eager to put into place what sounds amazingly like the American Bill of Rights, after decades of enduring terrible misrule at the hands of some strange regime apparently totally unconnected to the behavior of the gentle Iraqis themselves -- possibly these mis-rulers arrived from outer space.

I didn't catch mention, in this "important address to the nation," of the words "Islam" or "jihad" or anything except some reference to the "murderous ideology" of "the terrorists."

So I suppose Europe has nothing to worry about, just as long as it goes quietly, step by step, and islamizes the way a frog is cooked -- by slowly turning up the heat, by indiscernable degrees.

I feel secure now in the knowledge that my leaders have understood the threat, and are not relying merely on brute force, and have decided to take their stand in Iraq, and after the military phase, to pour American in so as to create that Light-Unto-the-Muslim-Nations which is already having such major effects, we were told, because "elections have been held in Lebanon [where the Christians may lose their confessional arrangement, and the new head of Lebanon is an outspoken admirer of Saudi Arabia], in the "Palestinian territories" [yes, and what a success that has turned out to be, with the performance of Hamas, not to mention the corruption and meretriciousness of Mr. Abbas, the phony leader of a made-up people, who waits while Sharon helpfully writes out his own Traety of Al-Hudaibiyya, and presents it with a little wink [please do not break until at least 6 months go by], and in "Saudi Arabia" [this must be a reference to the municipal election where the most fundamentalist of the usual fanatics swept the board -- well done, democratic experiment in Saudi Arabia!], and unmentioned went, for some reason, the election in Iran, where a former Teheran mayor, a tireless pothole-fixer, was elected, and will show the world that in his version of Light-Unto-the-Muslim-Nations pothole-fixing and fanatical Islam can exist in the same mind of the same maximum leader of the same totalitarian regime. This is something the smug speaker gave no signs of comprehending.

While Mr. Pipes may be well-meaning, he doesn't mention the next step needed to be taken by Islam.

Until the Muslims understand and accept 5 basic truths, there is no hope of any eventual "we are all Abraham's children" type of reconciliation:

1) The "vessel" shapes the Message.

2) All human "vessels" are flawed. (Only the Source can be Perfect)

3) Mohammad's transmission of the Message is inherently flawed. (Being a limited human being, 'prophet' or not, it can be no other way. Therefore, Mohammad can no longer be seen as the "perfect" man, since the very idea is arrogant, ignorant and impossible. Only the Deity can have this quality.)

4) Therefore, the tribal, cruel, unenlightened, human-all-too-human egocentric shortcomings in the Koran need to be seen as these forms of understandable distortions by a finite, temporal, ignorant, and essentially imperfect vessel trying to hold and encompass an Infinite, Eternal, Omniscient and Perfect Truth.

5) These flaws in the Koran need to be reinterpreted and expunged as further "Satanic Verses", and should be called vain and corrupt aspects of Mohammad's weak human nature seeking earthly vengeance against those who justly opposed his overly-militant evangelizing, when the very faith he proclaimed to be completing is built upon the root -and more profound understanding- that: "Vengeance is Mine saith the Lord."

Without an Enlightenment and Reformation of its own, Islam will remain unable to join the rest of humanity in their ongoing expansion of insight into the Eternal Mystery, having locked its spirit in the smaller soul of the 7th century.

OT, But "the Whitehouse will be muslim house"
http://memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=730

Hugh,

I dont what you are talking about with Iran. My wife and i just returned from our honeymoon in Iran. We spent alot of time in the resort town of Teheran. I admit it was a little different there, probably just culture shock. The people there were so friendly, I mean everywhere we went people went out of there way to yell "Kafir!" at us..I think it means Hello. They were so worried about us that they wouldnt even let us go out in the rain...they must have been worried we would get wet and have a bad day. When we arrived they pinned the star of David on us...I guess to show everyone that we were guests and to make sure to say hello. One thing that bothered us was the constant demand for tips for doing nothing..they call it Jizya or something, but I guess that is how a 5 star resort town is.

Mullah World was quite fun also..its like American Disney world but a little more toned down. We stood for hours on the Martyrdom line..not sure what the ride was but there were alot of fireworks towards the front where I couldnt see. They had these fun races where people pretended opposite sides of their limbs were cut off and ran from machete weilding men...it looked so real. Pin the tail on the donkey was not for us because instead of a blindfold they just cut your eyes out...must be a culture thing. They constantly kept putting a veil on my wife...I guess because of sunburn..they really worry about us. All in all it was a good trip and I look foward to going again...maybe I will see you there.

Rebecca, I don't think YHWH of the old test. was tribal.

When the Jews left Egypt, the book records that non Jews were amoungst them as followers of YHWH.

Then there are the Magi from Persia at Christ's Birth - same place from where Daniel spent most of his life.

Then you have Chinese letters, which actually mimic the story of Genesis (eg their symbols for desire/covert, are a man, woman and tree, there sybol for folld is also very interesting)

Maybe if Christians and Jews refered to the God of the Bible by his name, YHWH or Adonai (excuse spelling), or Jesus (in the Christian sense) then the generic name of god in Arabic, Allah, wouldn't be an issue.

Its like me calling you "Man" or "Woman" instead of your real name (rather insulting would it not be, for me not to use you name when addressing you?).

Besides, I've heard one translation of Allu Akbar, is "Allah is Greater" as opposed to "Allah is great" - as translated by the media.

If Allah is "Greater", then I ask, greater than whom???? Who was it that the Devil said he was greater than in Genesis?

Also, you will never hear a Muslim say YHWH or IAM or any other Biblical name, it always has to be Allah.

Nothing more than the Moon God.

Yahweh was definitely tribal...so was Elohim. One was the south, one north... It's been theorized that Moses picked up the Yahwistic tradition and rituals from his father-in-law, Jethro.

Look at the two versions of creation in Genesis: one is Elohistic, the other Yahwistic. They were redacted to please everyone...

One of the things that makes the Koran so superficial and simple-minded is that is was one man, a very short life. THere are thousands of years of oral traditions that underlie the final canon of Jewish scripture. Even Chrstian scripture took 400 years to become canonical.

no not the god of christians and jews he is that little black rock in that square building in mecca. now the question should be is allah another name for hubal or baal? ancient babylon has risen inside of islam

Will the real God please stand up...

Metaxi points out: "God Has No Son". This has been carved on this mosque since the 8th century.

Allah says he has no son, yet Yahweh says he has one and he is proud of him. If this is the same identical God...God is confused...

By the way, I AM THAT I AM, Eheieh aser Eheieh, is not a name. It means "existence is existence".
Pure existence...now thats a pretty lofty concept to lay on a sheepherder...

Is Allah [the] God? [of the Bible?]

The God of the Bible condemns murder. The god of the Koran commands murder.

How can they be the same then? Is God contrary?

Mal 3:6 I am the LORD, I change not

The most direct statement is one in which Muslims are admonished to tell Jews and Christians “We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you

One lone accuser - who calls ALL of the prophets and apostles liars - with no other testimony to back his own claims - who is not an eye witness to Christ - and yet - calls all of the actual eye witnesses liars? What decent court of law would accept such a case?

A lone murderer comes forth and calls the many witnesses of God - liars? Where's his proof?

Let him come foward and give it - if he is telling the Truth! Who is the father of the Israelites? Where did the Jews come from? who are the children of Israel?

And what is the end for Israel? and Palestine?

The True God left NOTHING undone! Jos 11:15

One of the greatest contraditctions of the Koran:

006.101 To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

003.047 She [Mary] said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

Then why does 'allah' preach that God needs ''a consort'' - to have a Son?

Mat 17:5 Behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. Mar 9:7 - Mat 3:17 - Luk 9:35 - 2Pe 1:17 [Testimony from four eye witnesses who heard the voice] let alone the MANY prophecies given by the prophets of the Old Testament!

All these witnesses - over so long of a period of time - and alone comes an accuser [and a MURDERER] who wasn't even there - and calls them ALL liars?????

What 'dhimmi' would EVER stake their Eternal Life upon such testimony? from one who didn't even know to make mention of Palestine for end times?

How can Danial Pipes even begin to ponder that the 2 might be the same?

Muslims are commanded to SLAUGHTER ALL who believe in the Son of God.

Christians are promised Eternal Life through Him and without Him - no one can be saved.

It is a sure recipe for a major bloodbath - one that 'wise' men of this world refuse to comprehend.

the Koran claims Islam actually preceded the other monotheisms. In Islamic doctrine (Sura 3:67), Abraham was the first Muslim.

Who is the father of the 'children of Israel' ???

The Koran doesn't say - yet it devoted a whole chapter to the children of Israel

And where did the Jews come from? if not from the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and half of Levi?

Why would God create Judaism? or Christianity? if Islam [being so perfect and all] was first? It doesn't make ANY sense!

And to say that Judaism or Christianity are made up religions by the 'liars' - then guess what folks? 'allah' lied too!

Can you not see how great a contradiction this is?

Jewish-Christian dialogue has made great strides and Jewish-Christian-Muslim trialogue could as well.

But before that can happen, however, Muslims must first recognize the validity of alternate approaches to the one God. That means leaving behind the supremacism, extremism, and violence of the current Islamist phase.

There were those - who used the Holy Reputation of the Lord to advance their own lusts and desires - until the printing press came out - and the New Testament being the hottest thing on that press - was given to the masses who couldn't get their hands on it fast enough!

Only then the power of the persecutors was destroyed. Why? Because of the New Testament! All violence between ALL humans is thoroughly condemned.

That can not be said of the Koran. The Koran preaches the most BRUTAL laws ever written - and that is a fact!

It preaches mass rape of captured females [after killing their men]

It preaches mass murder upon all who refuse to bow to 'allah'

It preaches punishment against any Muslim who refuses to go to war with the 'unbelievers' - worldwide.

It preaches beheadings - crucifixions and the cutting off of hands and feet.

Those who think they can find ways to mix the two - are only fooling themselves.

The Koran is being fed to the next generation - and any nation that does that - will be reaping what it sows - and soon.

Watch and see.

Hey, Jimmytheclaw--

You guessed it! Or intuited it...or already knew it. Probably that old fave, Baal.

Is islam compatible with human rights?

http://knowislam.info/drupal/humanrights

Posted by: Carolyn2

Ole - Carolyn - this is a GOOD ONE! Thank You!

The Muslim god is whimsical and capricious. He interferes in the lives of men whenever and however, and in what way he wishes. The Christian god, having set the universe tick-tocking, stands back from his handiwork, and allows men to study the laws by which that universe set in motion ticks, and tocks.

That difference helps explain, according to Rodney Stark, who has attempted to answer the question why modern science developed in the West, and not in China, or in the Islamic world. And Stark notes that Christians (Copernicus is one, Newton another, and Galileo, as well) did not think it illegitimate to investigate and discover the "laws" by which the Universe was regulated.

In Islam, the emphasis on that whimsical Allah menat that he could change the workings of the universe whenever he felt like it-- or even that there wereno physical principles, no laws, to be discovered.

And there are other differences between them that reinforce the idea that the Muslim God is not the Christian or Jewish God. The very phrase "we all worship the same god" -- given how completely different these belief-systems are, beginning with the contrasting figures of Jesus and Muhammad -- means little, except as Muslim propaganda, retailed by non-Muslims up to their necks in feelgood interfaith dialogue and other hilarities.

I think that the islamic Allah would be the same that God, but nothing more, and it´s the same although they deny Christ, the trinity and the resurection, why? the jews deny all of these, and his God is our God.

Posted by: Franze

The Jews deny Jesus - but not the Son of God.

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

They believe in the Son of God. They just don't believe Jesus is the One.

Any Jewish religion that says different - will find themselves arguing with other Jewish religions [why should they be any different from the rest of them?]

Of course Allah is NOT God. Just like Islam is not a religion, it is a cult and just like Muhammad was not a Prophet

Posted by: Foehammer

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire [a MAJOR war] burning with brimstone. [brimstone is false teachings]

There are false prophets - and they are more dangerous than any - because they gain power by gathering followers

I would almost argue that all Christians should be referring to the god of the Bible as either Yaweh or its english translation "I AM"

Posted by: Dilophos

Isa 62:2 The Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. ['shall name' - key words]

Rev 2:17 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. [This world doesn't know it]

1Jo 3:1 the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Exd 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Great post BigSleep [I think it's one of your best yet]

Dilophos? It's not lawful to even utter it. When you find it - you'll see. Keep looking.

Isa 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail

1Jo 2:27 ye need not that any man teach you

Pipes is full of s--t. Allah is NOT the Creator of the universe who gave us the Torah and inspired hundreds of prophecies in the Scriptures. Pipes is a political commentator. This foray into theology is pathetic, he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's seeing what he wants to see.

By the way, I AM THAT I AM, Eheieh aser Eheieh, is not a name. It means "existence is existence".
Pure existence...now thats a pretty lofty concept to lay on a sheepherder...

Posted by: duh_swami

Yes exactly! Only ONE inhabits eternity "existence is existence" - YHWH. The angels don't, there in a different realm or dimension, eternity is another dimension altogether, just like we are stuck (for now at least) in this physical dimension.

As for HIS other names, they all show a particular side/trait or personality of YHWH. Again it makes an interesting study, getting into what each name means, in the context its written, within the ancient Hebrew culture.

Scientists are only today studying the reality/possibility of different dimensions. Time for instance IS a physical property – it changes with gravity.

I AM was a way of YHWH identifying himself, as the one who inhabits eternity, and has no beginning and no end.

Pity Mo. didn't pick up on that one when he heard voices, or plagiarised bits of beliefs from other worldviews.

While the West has shown much anti-Semitism in the past, they share the same teachings (Bible believing Christians, (who haven’t had their head screwed with by liberal “Bible Colleges”), unlike Moslems, acknowledge that the OT IS relevant, and NOT corrupted in any way). Furthermore all Christians cannot get around the FACT that the New Testament was written BY JEWS. So Christians have their worldview rooted in Hebrew culture.

Arabs on the other hand, while they are ‘cousins’ of the Jewish people don’t have this. Unlike the fact that the OT and NT are complete JEWISH books, the Koran ISN’T. It’s an Arabic book. And like the writer in the excellent book called, “Secrets of the Koran Revealed” (I will provide details when I get home, as the book is there – awesome book though many here would love to read it – even if you are not a Christian) says, that for the Arabs to insist that the God of the universe HAD TO give his word to them specifically is VERY arrogant. Why didn’t he (Allah??) repeat this process? Why not give the Indians their ‘holy’ prophet and ‘book’, the Chinese, the Mongols etc etc?

Fact is the creater of the universe used JEWS, his chosen people, to give the world His word. Just as He said he would. The Arabs (see Esau – “an ass of a man” and Jacob) have always been jealous of this.

And this comes out in the vitriol of the Koran to first and foremost – the Jews, followed by the Christians, probably because Christians follow the teachings of Jewish writers, not the Arabic.

I also believe that these writings are also manifest in Islamic culture. They always seem to be jealous of the accomplishments of the civilisations that surround them, yet at the same time, they insist on having those people doing ‘it’ their way.

Furthermore, when Muslims worship Allah, they face Mecca, with their backs towards Jerusalem, YHWH’s city. In effect they are turning their backs on God, and are turning towards a Pagan city of old. I suppose they think that the OT corrupted the city of God from Mecca to Jerusalem (let alone the NT), trouble is (correct me if I’m wrong) Mo. initially told his followers to face Jerusalem when worshiping, until that is he got pooey with Jews and Christians.

In effect they are turning their backs on God, and are turning towards a Pagan city of old. I suppose they think that the OT corrupted the city of God from Mecca to Jerusalem (let alone the NT), trouble is (correct me if I’m wrong) Mo. initially told his followers to face Jerusalem when worshiping, until that is he got pooey with Jews and Christians.

Muhammad never even mentions the name Jerusalem

How about that 3rdtimelucky? Yet - they demand that Jerusalem be turned over to them.

What relation [or lineage] does Muhammad have with King David? None! he provides NO records - and just expects everyone to take his word for it - as he gives one contradiction after another.

A Contrast Between
Allah and GOD

Allah was created by Mohammed in the 7th Century AD;
GOD CREATED Heaven & Earth BEFORE THERE WAS TIME

Allah is the god of Islamic people;
GOD is The One True God of ALL and Owner of the fullness of Heaven and Earth

Allah is the god of the Quran;
GOD is the God of the Bible

Allah is the god of HATE;
GOD is the God of LOVE

Allah is the god of Vengeance;
GOD is the God of Forgiveness

Allah needs his people to fight for him;
GOD fights for His people

Allah can lie;
GOD Can NOT Lie

Allah can be CAPRICIOUS and Unknowable;
GOD is TRUSTWORTHY, does NOT Change, and honors His Word above His Name, and desires that we come to KNOW Him as our Father.

Allah has NO Savior;
GOD gives FREE Salvation through the Blood Sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son Yeshua The Messiah, Jesus The Christ.

Allah MIGHT give salvation by our WORKS;
GOD offers salvation as a FREE Gift of His Grace through the work of His Son The Lord Yeshua Messiah.

Allah has no mediator;
GOD gave Yeshua, Jesus, as the one and only Mediator

Allah does not talk to people;
GOD communicates with His people

Allah gives NO WAY to be certain of eternal life;

GOD gives ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY of Eternal Life

Allah is the moon god;
GOD is the Creator of Heaven and Earth

Allah is the god of War;
GOD is the God of Peace

Allah is the god of bondage;
GOD is the God of Freedom

Allah is a god of religion;
GOD is the God of Relationship

Allah Commands Murder of infidels;
GOD Forbids Murder of Anyone

Allah permits 4 wives;
GOD forbids Adultery

Allah allows no certainty of Eternal Life; GOD gives Absolute Certainty of Eternal Life

Allah calls for a walk in the Flesh;
GOD calls for a walk in the Spirit

Allah is concerned with the Outward Appearance; GOD is concerned with obedience from the Heart

Allah says the 6th day is holy;
GOD says the 7th day is holy

Allah AKA moon god, Lucifer, Satan, the devil; GOD AKA, God of Abraham, God of Israel, and God Almighty, and The God and Father of The Lord Yeshua Messiah

All the comments above (which you should read), made by the smart readers of JihadWatch prove that Allah is NOT God, and that Pipes should stick to politics and refrain from theology, about which he knows NOTHING. There are people who spent thousands of hours studying both the real Scriptures and the phony Qur'an, who are far more qualified to comment on both, than Pipes.

Pipes is a phony in another sense---he believes that Islam can be reformed. Talk about pipe dreams...

That is an outstanding contrast, shiva. I'd say that sums things up nicely.

HELLO Shiva!

Allah says the 6th day is holy;
GOD says the 7th day is holy

I didn't know that. So - what happens to the 7 day week period? when God rests from all of His work which He has done?

Talk about pipe dreams...

Posted by: angry_kafir

ROFL Now that is a GOOD one!

Beth: Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.

This is typical Christian mistranslation of the original Hebrew.

Nashku bar in Hebrew means Gird in strength.

This verse is one of many classic corruptions used by Christians to convince themselves and others that the Old Testament references Jesus, which it never does.

There's so much more misinterpretation here of Judaism, G-d, bible, history and what not. I've raised my objection and said my piece.

Flame away. I'll just turn the other virtual cheek. :)

A Contrast Between
Mohammed and Messiah

Mohammed's method was COMPULSION;
Messiah's aim was voluntary CONVERSION (Acts 3:19).

Mohammed's disciples killed for the faith; Messiah's disciples were killed for their faith (Acts 12:2; 2 Tim. 4:7).

Mohammed was a prophet of war;
Messiah is the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6-7).

Mohammed promoted persecution against the "infidels";
Messiah forgave and converted the chief persecutor (1 Tim. 1:13-15).

Mohammed was a taker of life;
Messiah is the giver of life (John 10:27-28).

Mohammed and his fellow warriors murdered thousands;
Messiah murdered none but saved many (compare John 12:48).

Mohammed practiced FORCE;
Messiah preached FAITH (John 6:29,35).

Mohammed was a WARRIOR;
Messiah is a DELIVERER (Col. 1:13; 1 Thess.1:10).

Mohammed conquered his enemies with the sword; Messiah conquered his enemies with another kind of sword, the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God (Heb. 4:12; Acts 2:37).

Mohammed said to the masses, "Convert or die!"; Messiah said, "Believe and live!" (John 6:47; 11:25-26).

Mohammed was swift to shed blood (Rom. 3:15-17); Messiah shed His own blood for the salvation of many (Eph. 1:7).

Mohammed preached "Death to the infidels!"; Messiah prayed "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).

Mohammed declared a holy war (Jihad) against infidels;
Messiah achieved a holy victory on Calvary's cross (Col. 2:14-15) and His followers share in that victory (John 16:33).

Mohammed constrained people by conquest;

Messiah constrained people by love (2 Cor. 5:14).

Modern terrorists derive their inspiration from Mohammed and carry out their despicable atrocities in the name of his god Allah; Believers in the God of Abraham, and the Messiah, derive their inspiration from the One who said, "Blessed are the peacemakers" (Matthew 5:9).

Some modern day disciples of Mohammed responded to the terrorist attacks by cheering in the streets;
modern day disciples of Messiah are deeply grieved at past atrocities carried out by those who were "Christians" in name only (the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc.).

Many Muslims are peaceful and peace-loving because they do not strictly follow the teachings of their founder; many followers of Messiah are peaceful and peace-loving because they do strictly follow the teachings of their Founder (Rom. 12:17-21).

Mohammed called upon his servants to fight; Yeshua said, "My kingdom is not of this world; if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight . . .but now is My kingdom not from here" (John 18:36)

Mohammed ordered death to the Jews (see A.Guillaume,
Messiah ordered that the gospel be preached "to the Jew first" (Rom. 1:16).

The Koran says, "Fight in the cause of Allah" (Qu'ran 2.244);
the Bible says, "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal" (Eph. 6:12; 2 Cor. 10:4).

The Koran says, "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them" (Qu'ran 9.5);
Messiah said, "Preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15).

The Koran says, "I will inspire terror into the hearts of unbelievers" (Qu'ran 8.12);
God inspires His terror (fear, reverential awe) into the hearts of believers (Isaiah 8:13).

The Koran (Qu'ran) is a terrorist manual which condones fighting, conflict, terror, slaughter, and genocide against those who do not accept Islam;
the Bible is a manual to spread the gospel of peace to all the world (Rom. 10:15).

Mohammed's Mission was to conquer the world for Allah;
Messiah's mission was to conquer sin's penalty and power by substitutionary atonement (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 3:18).

Mohammed considered Christ a good prophet; Messiah pronounced Mohammed to be a false prophet (John 10:10; Matt. 24:11).

Mohammed claimed that there was but one God, Allah;
Messiah claimed that He Himself was God (John 10:30-31; John 8:58-59; John 5:18; John 14:9).

Mohammed's Tomb: OCCUPIED! Messiah's tomb: EMPTY!

thanks to George Zeller

so
Is Allah God?
NO NO NO

I think on the seventh day Allah blows up woman and children...actually he commands that everyday. Guess there is no rest in terrorism...

Flame away. I'll just turn the other virtual cheek. :)

Posted by: Shy Guy

:o)

Well - we can only go by what other Scriptures say - shall we?

Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

There's more. Are these all mistakes also?

Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men [and KEEP turning the other cheek. That's what I do]

Beth - Son Of God - can also refer to a direct creation of YHWH. The angles are also refered to 'Sons of God'; and then there are the believers in Christ as Lord and Saviour - also refered to as Son's of God'.

In other words - Adam was a 'Son of God' also. But as most know it can also mean part of the trinity of YHWH.

That said - Christ allowed himself to be worshiped, he forgave sins, he gave direct prophecies - something only YHWH can do, as He exits outside of time, and can see the beginning from the end. He was the Messiah, and THE Son of God, as opposed to 'a' Son of God.

As for Allah and the last days - does anyone have passages for the following (or confirm with ISlamic text):

I was listening Avi Lipkin, a Messianic Jew (he rips into Muslims - he is a good speaker) and he said that when the Muslims Christ comes back on the last day he kills every last Jew. In fact the trees and rocks will cry out if a Jew is hiding behind them.

Is this true? Are there Islamic texts that say (I've scanned my Koran - can't find it, is it in the Hadith??)

Thanks all

It is the word 'God' that this world misunderstands. The One in the Heaven of heavens - does not speak with a tongue of flesh.

It all has to do with the heart - not words used by tongues of flesh

3rdtimelucky, this site may help
http://www.islam.tc/prophecies/imam.html

Posted by: Shy Guy at June 28, 2005 11:42 PM

"There's so much more misinterpretation here of Judaism, G-d, bible, history and what not. I've raised my objection and said my piece.

Flame away. I'll just turn the other virtual cheek. :)"

I am a Christian. I arrived at my conclusion through countless hours of studying different religions and trying to figure out, Why am I here?
The studying never stops and it gets so confusing sometimes. I would never "flame away" at your opinion. What I will do is respect what you have to say and study the link you have provided. I never really get to here what the Jews have to say about Jesus. I promise I will try to read without prejudice if that is humanly possible. G-D Bless Shy Guy

Mohammed said to the masses, "Convert or die!"; Messiah said, "Believe and live!" (John 6:47; 11:25-26).

Mohammed called upon his servants to fight; Yeshua said, "My kingdom is not of this world; if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight . . .but now is My kingdom not from here" (John 18:36)

I must add} Jhn 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Mohammed's Tomb: OCCUPIED! Messiah's tomb: EMPTY!

Shiva? I just LOVE these!

Thank you

That said - Christ allowed himself to be worshiped, he forgave sins, he gave direct prophecies - something only YHWH can do, as He exits outside of time, and can see the beginning from the end. He was the Messiah, and THE Son of God, as opposed to 'a' Son of God.

THE Son of God was the last Prophet sent:

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

But know this:

Jhn 16:23 And in that day [these days that we are in now] ye shall ask me [Jesus] NOTHING. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

I was listening Avi Lipkin, a Messianic Jew (he rips into Muslims - he is a good speaker) and he said that when the Muslims Christ comes back on the last day he kills every last Jew. In fact the trees and rocks will cry out if a Jew is hiding behind them.

He sounds very interesting. Isn't it funny though? how it is the 'extreme' Muslims who are the ones doing the hiding? not behind trees mind you - but behind women and children.

Is this true? Are there Islamic texts that say (I've scanned my Koran - can't find it, is it in the Hadith??)

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky

They also claim that they get 70 virgins - and I haven't found that one either - in the Koran.

The Koran mocks the Christians for not believing in the resurrections.

Yet - the Koran teaches absolutely NOTHING about the one resurrection of the righteous - how it begins - ends - and where things go from there.

I think on the seventh day Allah blows up woman and children...actually he commands that everyday. Guess there is no rest in terrorism...

Posted by: pocadon

ROFL

Oh yeah - forgot this one - for shy guy:

Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

More on the "Mahdi"

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/al-sadr.htm

But as most know it can also mean part of the trinity of YHWH.

Trinity appears no where in the Bible.

There are 3 parts - that make up the One.

The Vatican missed 'the Ark' on that one.

I think on the seventh day Allah blows up woman and children...actually he commands that everyday. Guess there is no rest in terrorism...

Posted by: pocadon

ROFL
I want to make clear - that I am sickened beyond words - that Muslims do such things.

But - the teachings? Now those are funny!

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here -- in response to the question "Is Allah the same as the God of the BIble?" the answer is, no.

As I recall it, Muhammad was concerned that the culture he grew up in was being "left behind" -- he had noted that everyone surrounding Arabia had a monotheistic faith, and had a holy scripture, but the Arabs had nothing. The Zoroastrians had the Avesta, the Christians, the Gospels, the Jewish people, the Torah. From the historical viewpoint, Muhammad was at an advantage to conveneintly borrow certain doctrines which he felt would suit his needs, and "create" Islam while at the same time trying to reform pagan Arabia which he felt was in a state of Jahiliyah, or darkness. The central problem being, he did not reform far enough. Islam is the only monotheistic faith which has its concept of jihad, which is unique to Islam alone. Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism do not recognize any such "doctrine."

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here

Posted by: abad

Join the party :o)

The party of - many of us - I should say

"Yahweh was definitely tribal...so was Elohim. One was the south, one north... It's been theorized that Moses picked up the Yahwistic tradition and rituals from his father-in-law, Jethro.

Look at the two versions of creation in Genesis: one is Elohistic, the other Yahwistic. They were redacted to please everyone..."

Dymphna,

One would only say this if one believes in the Documentary Hypothesis, aka the JEPD theory. (The theory that there are four different authors to the 5 books of Moses and those portions of the text were redacted together at a later point in time.) Unfortunately, you are basing your comments on a Hypothesis that has its origin in 19th century scholarship. The theory originally came into existence because the scholars of that time argued that the Torah could not have been written by one author, because everyone at that time "knew" that written language did not exist at the time of Moses. Therefore, the text could not have been written by him. The text must therefore have been written by subsequent generations. This assumption underlies the next 100 or so years of scholarship which has run down a culdesac ever since. Those scholars built upon the previous scholar's work. All of them accept with a perfect faith that their Hypothesis is sound and never really question their theory. Add to this that most scholars who embrace the Hypothesis never really seriously consider a point of view which is built upon a traditional sort of basis. Each generation's scholar simply takes the hypothesis as the gospel and moves forward with it. Over time the ivory tower has grown and grown. Unfortunately, or rather I should say fortunately, there are other arguments that take into account other possibilities that do justice to the text.

In that vein, recent scholars at Bar Ilan have examined the text with sophisticated computer programs and have found more evidence to support that the text had one author rather than multiple authors. Stylistically and gramatically all five books show more commonality than differences. You would not expect that if the text was woven together in a more or less patchwork type of design.

There is much to support that the textual differences in Gen. Chapters one and two were written intentionally to support a theological point of view. The use of "Elohim" alone or "Elohim Yhwh" is meant to express the concept of how G-d relates to his general creation - having created the universe according to Din (used in the name of "Elohim" standing alone)("Din" in Hebrew is the word "judgement") and the personal way he relates to man ("Yhwh Elohim" used in the expression of G-d's love and mercy). If you examine the text in this way, you come up with a reading that shows that G-d has two ways of dealing with the world: as a G-d of justice, when it comes to the creation, and as a G-d of mercy, when it comes to His dealings with mankind. Therefore, the use of the word, Elohim, is meant theologically and is intentional. As is the use of the name Yhwh Elohim, which combines both traits together. It is THEOLOGICAL not redacted.

"Yahweh was definitely tribal...so was Elohim. One was the south, one north... It's been theorized that Moses picked up the Yahwistic tradition and rituals from his father-in-law, Jethro.

Look at the two versions of creation in Genesis: one is Elohistic, the other Yahwistic. They were redacted to please everyone..."

Dymphna,

One would only say this if one believes in the Documentary Hypothesis, aka the JEPD theory. (The theory that there are four different authors to the 5 books of Moses and those portions of the text were redacted together at a later point in time.) Unfortunately, you are basing your comments on a Hypothesis that has its origin in 19th century scholarship. The theory originally came into existence because the scholars of that time argued that the Torah could not have been written by one author, because everyone at that time "knew" that written language did not exist at the time of Moses. Therefore, the text could not have been written by him. The text must therefore have been written by subsequent generations. This assumption underlies the next 100 or so years of scholarship which has run down a culdesac ever since. Those scholars built upon the previous scholar's work. All of them accept with a perfect faith that their Hypothesis is sound and never really question their theory. Add to this that most scholars who embrace the Hypothesis never really seriously consider a point of view which is built upon a traditional sort of basis. Each generation's scholar simply takes the hypothesis as the gospel and moves forward with it. Over time the ivory tower has grown and grown. Unfortunately, or rather I should say fortunately, there are other arguments that take into account other possibilities that do justice to the text.

In that vein, recent scholars at Bar Ilan have examined the text with sophisticated computer programs and have found more evidence to support that the text had one author rather than multiple authors. Stylistically and gramatically all five books show more commonality than differences. You would not expect that if the text was woven together in a more or less patchwork type of design.

There is much to support that the textual differences in Gen. Chapters one and two were written intentionally to support a theological point of view. The use of "Elohim" alone or "Elohim Yhwh" is meant to express the concept of how G-d relates to his general creation - having created the universe according to Din (used in the name of "Elohim" standing alone)("Din" in Hebrew is the word "judgement") and the personal way he relates to man ("Yhwh Elohim" used in the expression of G-d's love and mercy). If you examine the text in this way, you come up with a reading that shows that G-d has two ways of dealing with the world: as a G-d of justice, when it comes to the creation, and as a G-d of mercy, when it comes to His dealings with mankind. Therefore, the use of the word, Elohim, is meant theologically and is intentional. As is the use of the name Yhwh Elohim, which combines both traits together. It is THEOLOGICAL not redacted.

"Yahweh was definitely tribal...so was Elohim. One was the south, one north... It's been theorized that Moses picked up the Yahwistic tradition and rituals from his father-in-law, Jethro.

Look at the two versions of creation in Genesis: one is Elohistic, the other Yahwistic. They were redacted to please everyone..."

Dymphna,

One would only say this if one believes in the Documentary Hypothesis, aka the JEPD theory. (The theory that there are four different authors to the 5 books of Moses and those portions of the text were redacted together at a later point in time.) Unfortunately, you are basing your comments on a Hypothesis that has its origin in 19th century scholarship. The theory originally came into existence because the scholars of that time argued that the Torah could not have been written by one author, because everyone at that time "knew" that written language did not exist at the time of Moses. Therefore, the text could not have been written by him. The text must therefore have been written by subsequent generations. This assumption underlies the next 100 or so years of scholarship which has run down a culdesac ever since. Those scholars built upon the previous scholar's work. All of them accept with a perfect faith that their Hypothesis is sound and never really question their theory. Add to this that most scholars who embrace the Hypothesis never really seriously consider a point of view which is built upon a traditional sort of basis. Each generation's scholar simply takes the hypothesis as the gospel and moves forward with it. Over time the ivory tower has grown and grown. Unfortunately, or rather I should say fortunately, there are other arguments that take into account other possibilities that do justice to the text.

In that vein, recent scholars at Bar Ilan have examined the text with sophisticated computer programs and have found more evidence to support that the text had one author rather than multiple authors. Stylistically and gramatically all five books show more commonality than differences. You would not expect that if the text was woven together in a more or less patchwork type of design.

There is much to support that the textual differences in Gen. Chapters one and two were written intentionally to support a theological point of view. The use of "Elohim" alone or "Elohim Yhwh" is meant to express the concept of how G-d relates to his general creation - having created the universe according to Din (used in the name of "Elohim" standing alone)("Din" in Hebrew is the word "judgement") and the personal way he relates to man ("Yhwh Elohim" used in the expression of G-d's love and mercy). If you examine the text in this way, you come up with a reading that shows that G-d has two ways of dealing with the world: as a G-d of justice, when it comes to the creation, and as a G-d of mercy, when it comes to His dealings with mankind. Therefore, the use of the word, Elohim, is meant theologically and is intentional. As is the use of the name Yhwh Elohim, which combines both traits together. It is THEOLOGICAL not redacted.

Sorry all, I tried to avoid the double post and couldn't quite manage to do it. :-(

Beth: Oh yeah - forgot this one - for shy guy:

Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Source: Messiah and Tanach.

Plenty more such sites linked to here.

Do you really want to go on and find out how so-called Christian scholars and translators have twisted the meaning of original Hebrew texts and pluck verses out of context, like this one? First, look up the correct translations at one of the sites I linked to and try arguing on the refutations there.

I wouldn't be responding except that I view such translations as a desecration of the Torah.

I fully recommend you take a serious course even in modern Hebrew and grammar. You'll then be able to decide for yourself whether you've been hoodwinked or not. But if you're simply going to parrot what been printed elsewhere, you're in for a little shock perhaps.

Pocadon, thank you for your reply.

Unfortunately, you are basing your comments on a Hypothesis that has its origin in 19th century scholarship.

paula - I wonder if the findings of the Book of Enoch - 2 copies - found in 2 different parts of the world [not to mention parts of it also included in the Dead Sea Scrolls] didn't blow that 'theory' out of the water

forgot to mention - Those writings of Enoch were found during the 19th century

now the question should be is allah another name for hubal or baal?
Posted by: jimmytheclaw

Excellent Question! Been looking at it myself

Christians seize on the word "son," saying that since the fourth verse describes things only G-d can do, this 'son' must be Jesus.

Posted by: Shy Guy

I never said that

If David called Him Lord - then how can He be His Son?

The full context is different. The writer, modestly proclaiming his own ignorance, asks who can do all of these wonderful things. In effect, he says, "I am ignorant and do not know what man can do this. Can you identify him for me? Can you identify his family?" Of course, no one can do these things except G-d. Asking for the name of a family member is somewhat comparable to the modern phrase "You and what army?" to indicate something which someone cannot do. The writer is emphasizing that humans can not match the abilities of the divine. It is a rhetorical question, sarcastic in nature, and has no answer. That is the point.

You may say so shy guy. Now put together the Old Testament Scriptures that say so - without any interference from you.

Then I'll believe.

Note just two verses later: "6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." To say the chapter refers to Jesus is indeed an addition.

Sorry Beth. I failed to comprehend your reply.

You never said what?

Who was talking about David here? If you're referring to the Book Of Proverbs, it was written by King Solomon, David's son. Nevertheless, I don't understand your question.

What interference came from me? On the contrary, read the original Hebrew text in its context. Oh.... but you can't.

Can you respond to my refute of Psalm 2, verse 12?

I love it! The battle between the figments of imagination.

Be sure to let me know the outcome.

Shy Guy
This is taking the debate off thread but can you help me with something I was talking to the children about recently please. The adults also expressed some interest. I was once told by a Jewish colleague, who taught the children's classes in his synagogue, about the writing and composing of the psalms. That some were David's Psalms and others were Psalms of David. Being that some were actually composed by King David, and others were composed for him. I can't remember which were which and what numbers they were. The children were impressed that the boy who did for Goliath was also a singer/songwriter, to use the modern terms. I'd like to be able to read them an actual example. Thanks.

I think the fact that there is an informed and scholarly debate going on here shows that despite the disagreements we all take the verse in Psalm 100 seriously.
Know that the Lord is God; he has made us and we are his own....Give thanks to him and bless his name; for the Lord is good and his love is everlasting, his constancy endures to all generations.

Granny,

I think this is what you're looking for, correct?

Other than that, it's not clear to me what exactly you would like to read to your children. Please clarify.

Regarding your quote from Psalm 100, amen! :)

Shy Guy
Thank you for responding so quickly.
The impression I got from what Simon told me was that the psalms from number such to number so were David's Psalms and written by him, while those from number so to number such were Psalms of David and written for him. Or maybe the other way round, that it was the Psalms of David that he wrote personally.
I would like to be able to read a particular psalm to the children and be able tell them that David, who grew up to be King David, actually wrote that, and we still use it 3000 odd years later.
From the link you gave me I gather that he wrote all of them except the 9 written by the others. Have I got that right?
Thanks
GW

From the link you gave me I gather that he wrote all of them except the 9 written by the others. Have I got that right?

Correct.

That includes Psalm150 ...praise him with triumphant cymbals; let every thing that has breath praise the Lord! so they can play their instruments. They will enjoy that although I may need some aspirin after.
Thank you.

Well, after now completing my first year Arabic studies, it guts me to say it, but this article is correct, 'Allah' simply means 'The God' It is not exclusive to the 'god' of the Qur'an.
As stated, the Arabic Bible uses this term.

However I would catergorically state this;
"Their Allah (Islams) and our Allah (Jews and Christians) is not the same Allah.

Just as the 'Gabriel' of the Bible and the 'Jibreel' of the Qur'an are not the same, and as the 'Isa' of the Qur'an and the 'Jesus' of the Bible are not the same person, Neither is the Allah of the Bible and the Allah of the Qur'an.

('Isa' is not, incidentally, the Arabic name for Jesus, the Arabic form of the Jewish/Aramaic 'Yeshua' is 'Yesua'. 'Isa' is the Arabic for 'Esau' and therefore an Islamic attempt to strip Jesus of the meaning of His name; "God Saves")

Regards everyone;
Kc

kc England: However I would catergorically state this; "Their Allah (Islams) and our Allah (Jews and Christians) is not the same Allah.

Just as the 'Gabriel' of the Bible and the 'Jibreel' of the Qur'an are not the same, and as the 'Isa' of the Qur'an and the 'Jesus' of the Bible are not the same person, Neither is the Allah of the Bible and the Allah of the Qur'an.

How do you differentiate between the characteristics of Islam's definition of G-d versus Judaisms?

Of course Judaism doesn't believe in the Quran or Mohamed being a prophet of any sort. Let's take the Rambam's (Maimonides') 13 Principles of Faith:

(NOTE: The word "Hashem" refers to G-d.)
1. Hashem exists
2. Hashem is one and unique
3. Hashem is incorporeal
4. Hashem is eternal
5. Prayer is to be directed to Hashem alone and to no other
6. The words of the prophets are true
7. Moses's prophecy is better than any other prophet's
8. The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
9. There will be no other Torah
10. Hashem knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11. Hashem will reward the good and punish the wicked
12. The Messiah will come
13. The dead will be resurrected

Obviously, Islam rejects 7, 8, 9 and possibly 13 (I have no idea whether such a concept exists in Islam or not).

Overall, though, other than the obvious beliefs in different prophets, writings and commandments, would it not be correct to say that Islam's and Judaism's definition of G-d have much in common, certainly more so than Judaism and Christianity?

Shy guy - I said that the Jews [not all] believe that God has a Son - but that they don't believe Jesus was that Son that the prophets told about.

You said that the 'Hebrew Torah' is misunderstood by Christans because of 'mistranslations'.

I brought something up that I thought you might catch to make you rethink your reply.

As for the Torah - the promise that Abraham should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith - because it was given to him before the law was even established.

Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

The Christians believe that One to be Jesus who came in the flesh.

The Jews [not all] don't believe that.

You disagreed because of 'translations' concerning the teachings of the Son of God in the Old Testament.

What interference came from me? On the contrary, read the original Hebrew text in its context. Oh.... but you can't.

Posted by: Shy Guy

Why? because I can't read Hebrew? That's the same argument the Muslims give for their Koran.

The True God speaks in all languages to all people because He created all people.

And that leaves ALL without excuse in the Judgment

The True God leaves NOTHING undone

Beth:

Shy guy - I said that the Jews [not all] believe that God has a Son - but that they don't believe Jesus was that Son that the prophets told about.

Such concepts are blasphemous to Judaism. Always have been. See Maimonides 13 Principles posted in my last post.

Such a claim shows you have a lack of knowledge about elementary concepts of Judaism.

I brought something up that I thought you might catch to make you rethink your reply.

Again, I have no idea what you're alluding to. Could you be specific?

As for the Torah - the promise that Abraham should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith - because it was given to him before the law was even established.

Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

The Christians believe that One to be Jesus who came in the flesh.

OK but that isn't apparent from the verse itself. How does one automatically equate the word "Shiloh" with "Jesus"? So this is just a case of a general reference to Messiah. Que sera, sera.

The Jews [not all] don't believe that.

You disagreed because of 'translations' concerning the teachings of the Son of God in the Old Testament.

You're not catching on. The verse I discussed in Daniel is a bald mistranslation by Christians of the words in Hebrew. The verse from Proverbs has to be taken out of its original context in order to fit Christianity's definition of it.

I pressed "refresh" and wow my page was refreshed indeed, the nusiance post was gorn, gorn, never to darken our door again !!!

What interference came from me? On the contrary, read the original Hebrew text in its context. Oh.... but you can't.

Posted by: Shy Guy

Why? because I can't read Hebrew? That's the same argument the Muslims give for their Koran.

What does the word "bar" mean in Hebrew?

The True God speaks in all languages to all people because He created all people.

This is wish-wash. So then Jihadists also represent the word and voice of G-d.

Someone is lying or mistaken here. Investigate.

The True God speaks in all languages to all people because He created all people.

This is wish-wash. So then Jihadists also represent the word and voice of G-d.

Posted by: Shy Guy

No - the 'Jihadists' [true Muslims] keep the Koran. The God of the Bible is totally opposite of the god of the Koran.

And yes - Jesus is an abomination to devout 'Judaism' because He is an end to their 'supreme' represenative mouth of God.

They were ripped from their nation just decades after the death of Jesus.

I would be most happy if you had 40+ years experience of reading even modern Hebrew.
What does the word "bar" mean in Hebrew?

I'd prefer to understand the Greek language.

'bar' in greek is related to the meaning of opposite

I thought the topic was "Gods" name...whats all this Nazi spam doing here...I wont respond to his including my post in his cut and pastes, except to say this...My old army friend is over 90 now and would love to meet you...and grab hold of you, and turn you every way but loose...

t's all in a name...
Gods name Allah or YHVH or any other name man has come up with to explain the unexplainable.

The WORD God is a title, not a name..."Allah" is a NAME...only "things" have names. In the Bible, when Moses asked God his name, God replied, I AM THAT I AM, which is not a name. God avoided the name issue...why? As I pointed out above, "pure existence", is not a name. God refused to lower himself into "thing-hood", by naming himself. God has no name...as soon as you give God of the universe a name, you have reduced him to a "thing". "Allah" is a NAME, a "thing". So "GOD" and "Allah" are not the same. "God" is not material, but cosmic and supreme, not a "thing", while "Allah"...a NAME, is terrestrial and material. Man(Mohammad) made. In other words "Allah" is the opposite of "God". It has been said, that all evil happens in "matter". So what(or who) in the literature is in opposition to God???

In the 'Torah' God did say - that He was going to make a New Covenant with His people Jer 31:31

In that He said a New - He was making the first one - old.

Shy Guy - you refuse to accept the new

And yes - Jesus is an abomination to devout 'Judaism' because He is an end to their 'supreme' represenative mouth of God.

They were ripped from their nation just decades after the death of Jesus.

This news just in:

The Comeback Kids send you their best from Jerusalem.

How prophetic!

I'd prefer to understand the Greek language.

The WORD God is a title, not a name

Posted by: duh_swami

Than You duh_swami!

But the original language of Psalms and practically the entire OT, was Hebrew. Don't you think it relevant? At least from an intellectually honest point of view.

Posted by: Shy Guy

No - because the Old Testament told of a New Testament to come.

I have accepted the Old Testament in that it says a New Testament would come.

We have it - and I accept it. You don't

beth: In the 'Torah' God did say - that He was going to make a New Covenant with His people Jer 31:31

In that He said a New - He was making the first one - old.

Shy Guy - you refuse to accept the new

Isn't it amazing!! No Jews ever understood this verse in Jeremiah to mean that one iota of the Torah would change. Only when Christianity came around they had to create from new an interpretation of this verse that was never heard of before to justify their beliefs retroactively.

Beth: But the original language of Psalms and practically the entire OT, was Hebrew. Don't you think it relevant? At least from an intellectually honest point of view.

Posted by: Shy Guy

No - because the Old Testament told of a New Testament to come.

So you are rejecting the Old Testament? Or are you saying that the text of Psalms in Greek supercedes the original in Hebrew?

Well shy guy - The Bible is my guide...and it includes two Testaments. The God of that Book is my Guide - not the teachings of men.

The 'song' of Moses told about Palestine for end times - and here is Palestine for ALL to see.

I would say that God have given us a pretty good translation of His Old Testament.....especially if a dummy like me can get it.

There is no "Palestine"

So you are rejecting the Old Testament? Or are you saying that the text of Psalms in Greek supercedes the original in Hebrew?

Posted by: Shy Guy

No! It ALL belongs to The One and Only True Creator of the heavens AND the earth.

I'm SO grateful to Him for given it to us.

Through both Testaments - I have learned how the resurrection of the Righteous works - from beginning to end - and what comes after it.

The whole story on the resurrection of the righteous is not given in Old Testament alone - nor the New Testament alone. We need both

There is no "Palestine"

Posted by: pocadon

Hi pocadon.

Oh but there is a HUGE fight over it going on in this world - no?

Beth, you're ignoring my questions about Psalms 2:12 and beginning to preach. Believing in the NT doesn't explain the mistranslation of this verse.

Should we stop here?

Beth, you're ignoring my questions about Psalms 2:12 and beginning to preach. Believing in the NT doesn't explain the mistranslation of this verse.

Should we stop here?

Posted by: Shy Guy

Ps 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Notice the Scripture given in the very same [short] chapter - verse 7:

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Or is that a 'mistranslation' also?

Believing in the NT doesn't explain the mistranslation of this verse.

Posted by: Shy Guy

The New Testament is PROOF that the verse has not been mistranslated

Is Allah the same god that mainstream Christianity worships?
Is the Mormon Father God the God of mainstream Christianity?
Is the Mormon Jesus the Jesus of mainstream Christianity for that matter?
Are Jehovah’s witnesses really witnesses of the same God that mainstream Christianity worships?
The answer to all of those questions is a long loud NO! A few minutes of objective study proves that to anyone interested enough to read the books.
To qualify: When I say mainstream Christianity I mean the major Protestant denominations and the Catholic Church.
There are hundreds if not thousands of cults, sects, denominations, and so forth chugging away with their own mythologies and pantheons, who can keep up anymore?

Today’s myth is yesterday’s religion.

f.g.

who can keep up anymore?

Posted by: f.g.

Good Question!

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this Word, it is because there is no light in them.

That is how to know.

1Jo 2:27 ye need not that any man teach you

I love it! The battle between the figments of imagination. Be sure to let me know the outcome.

The most succinct and honest comment on this subject yet! Excellent.

The outcome? I can pretty much guarantee you that when the smoke clears on this debate, the only things left standing will be human beings.

f.g.

Is Allah really Sauron?

Think about it.

f.g.

I love it! The battle between the figments of imagination

fg - is the fight over Palestine a figment of the imagination?

This debate will be over - and the Prophecy about Palestine and its end - WILL still be standing - even after we're dead

Beth: Ps 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Notice the Scripture given in the very same [short] chapter - verse 7:

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Or is that a 'mistranslation' also?

Now you're cookin'!

"My son" in verse 7 is "Beh'nee" in Hebrew, the root being the word "ben" - "son" - as is always used throughout the Torah.

"Stength" (some translate it as a spiritual strength - somewhat like "purity") in verse 12 is the word "bar".

The word "bar" is never used in Hebrew origins to equate to "ben" - "son".

Why would King David use two different words, one of them not even in Hebrew (and all of Psalms are in Hebrew), to refer to "son", and within 5 verses of each other, no less?

Sadly, someone way back in the Church didn't know his Hebrew - but he did know his Aramaic, ala Mel Gibson's movie. "Bar" in Aramaic is indeed "son". But King David wasn't giving us Jews a toddler's lesson in Aramaic.

Oops.

As for your implying anything about jesus in Psalm 2:7, sorry but:

1. This is David talking.

2. The Torah has many verses where others are referred to G-d's sons or children:

This verse has the Lord speaking of his "son," so, since the Christians believe Jesus is the son of G-d, then this can only be talking about Jesus. In Hebrew, there are no capital or lower case letters. By capitalizing the "s" in "son," the publishers of the King James Bible is intentionally trying to lead the reader to belief in Jesus. All of this implies that the Lord never spoke of anyone else as His son. Scripture emphatically states otherwise.

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called My son out of Egypt.

Here, the people of Israel are collectively G-d's "son."

1 Chronicles 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.

[10] He shall build a house for my name; and he shall be My son, and I [will be] his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever. (KJV)

Here, Solomon is referred to as G-d's "son." Obviously, the title isn't Jesus' sole claim.
-

Keep trying.

Beth: Believing in the NT doesn't explain the mistranslation of this verse.

Posted by: Shy Guy

The New Testament is PROOF that the verse has not been mistranslated

So this boils down to circular reasoning? Sad, but as you wish.

You left out a 'Hebrew' explanation for the word 'begotten'

for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days

Moses warned - before Solomon came along:

Lev 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech

Solomon built 2 houses:

1Ki 9:10 And it came to pass at the end of twenty years, when Solomon had built the two houses, the house of the LORD, and the king's house

1Ki 11:7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

So this boils down to circular reasoning? Sad, but as you wish.

Posted by: Shy Guy

I give Scriptures - not 'circular reasoning'

You are free to see them as you wish - until the Judgment.

1Ki 11:8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

Guess God had to find another Son - no?

Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

The Old Testament gave a prophecy about a New Testament.

You can't change that Shy Guy - no matter how hard you try.

fg - is the fight over Palestine a figment of the imagination?

No sweetheart. That is tragically real. I was referring to the debate in this forum. But you knew that. You're trying to change the subject and imply that I'm not in touch with reality or something of the like. I'm not the one who believes that they are in contact with invisible beings who are directing their life, but apparently you are.

Isn't that a bit odd? I only acknowledge as facts those things that can be proven as facts. And I'm denying reality. But you, who are willing to believe in the substance of things unseen, so to speak, just because you are told to or you have a "fuzzy feeling" somewhere, are in touch with what's really going on. What a giggle. Peace to you Beth.

f.g.

Beth: You left out a 'Hebrew' explanation for the word 'begotten'

for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days

Moses warned - before Solomon came along:

Lev 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech

Solomon built 2 houses:

1Ki 9:10 And it came to pass at the end of twenty years, when Solomon had built the two houses, the house of the LORD, and the king's house

1Ki 11:7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

What does this have to do with the word "ben" - "son"?

Where does it say that Solomon passed his children through a fire in a Molech ceremony?

Are you intentionally going off on tangents?

So this boils down to circular reasoning? Sad, but as you wish.

Posted by: Shy Guy

I give Scriptures - not 'circular reasoning'
I'll leave that for other viewers here to Judge.

1Ki 11:8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

Guess God had to find another Son - no?
Plenty more generations to come. We're still here! The Bible ends Solomon's story relating that God was angry with him and told him:

"Since you are guilty of this, and you have not kept My covenant and My laws ... I will tear the kingdom away from you ... But I will not do this in your time, for the sake of your father David. Instead, I will tear it away from your son ... I will give your son one tribe for the sake of My servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem, which I have chosen." (1 Kings 11:9-13)

And your point is?

Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

I've only just got to read all this. Pipes is off the wall! You only have to read what God says about himself in the Torah or Bible and compare it to what Allah says about himself to realise they are not the same! Playing esoteric word games with the names of God or Allah is appeasement behavior. Ridiculous!

I did see one post that properly identifies Allah as Satan himself. A proper understanding of how Scripture describes Satan and how hundreds of years later Mohammed describes the angel who visited him will lead to one conclusion. Allah is the god of this world, and his name is Lucifer.

But you, who are willing to believe in the substance of things unseen, so to speak, just because you are told to or you have a "fuzzy feeling" somewhere,

Posted by: f.g.

The Prophecy about Palestine for end times - can be seen. It's not 'invisible'

As for the 'fuzzy feeling' let me tell you - that could NOT be further from the Truth.

Jesus was murdered for quoting Scriptures.

And so will the Muslims murder us for quoting Scriptures [which is a command to do so]

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Murderers have no Eternal Life abiding with in - and that - is far more terrifying than this 'mortal's death'

Beth: The Old Testament gave a prophecy about a New Testament.

You can't change that Shy Guy - no matter how hard you try.

kennyg1953,

kennyg1953,

You got it right. It only takes a comparison of their respective attributes to deduce that they are not the same character. The same can be said for the list I proved early. It only takes a brief examination of Mormonism or any of the other sects I mentioned to understand it is not talking about the same characters that mainstream Christianity talks about.

Conclusion: They are all worshiping and promoting their own different brands of deity. And they are competing for market share in different ways.

The proposition that Allah is Satan is interesting and very funny. Bravo. Sounds like it would make a great movie ala The Prophecy series.

f.g.

As for the 'fuzzy feeling' let me tell you - that could NOT be further from the Truth.

You're telling me you receive no body rushes or goose flesh during prayer, contemplation or worship? Are you Baptist, Methodist, Charasmatic ...? You're missing out.

Or are you saying you don't put much trust in that, that you use cold reason instead to validate your beliefs?

Jer 33:20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;

Jer 33:21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne

Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever

I don't know what part of that message you don't understand Shy Guy. Other than you denying the English translation and the New Testament.

If the Old Testament told about a New Testament - Where is that New Testament Shy Guy?

Did He not give it yet?

Then how will you be able to explain the resurrection of the righteous?
I did see one post that properly identifies Allah as Satan himself. A proper understanding of how Scripture describes Satan and how hundreds of years later Mohammed describes the angel who visited him will lead to one conclusion. Allah is the god of this world, and his name is Lucifer.

Posted by: kennyg1953

The New Testament that Shy Guy denies - said that 'allah' would come:

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If you don't believe in the Word of the New Testament - just take a look at what is going on.

Obviously, you haven't bothered reading. If you can't reply to the specifics, just say so. Posted by: Shy Guy

Psa 40:4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

Have you noticed something Shy Guy? I am posting Sriptures - and they're making you mad.

I assure you - it's not me that you're getting upset with.

I didn't write them

Or are you saying you don't put much trust in that, that you use cold reason instead to validate your beliefs?

Posted by: f.g.

Tell me fg - with Islam on the rise - should we [the non-Muslims] all be getting that 'fuzzy' feeling?

well - gotta go get some mortal work done.

Bye all

Beth and Shy Guy:

Jews and Christians need to unite to defend ourselves against the jihad. While your debate is most interesting, it is most emphatically off-topic, and distracts from the more pressing issue of whether Judaism and Christianity will survive at all without being utterly subjugated.

Focus, please.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Shy Guy,

I don't know what dialogue you have been having with Beth, but surely the best evidence for the new testament within the old is found in Isaiah 53? How could God describe in excrutiating detail what the rulers of Jerusalem were going to do to Jesus, so many years after Isaiah lived? Unless He, God, planned to have it written down for the whole world to read for thousands of years afterwards, in order that they might see Him, God, glorified through this prophecy fulfilled. And then because of that, turn away from their sinful behavior and turn to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who will save them.

As O'Reilly says, "What say you now?"

No problem, Robert.

I was hoping someone would post a response to my right-on-topic post earlier on.

kennyg1953: I don't know what dialogue you have been having with Beth, but surely the best evidence for the new testament within the old is found in Isaiah 53? How could God describe in excrutiating detail what the rulers of Jerusalem were going to do to Jesus, so many years after Isaiah lived? Unless He, God, planned to have it written down for the whole world to read for thousands of years afterwards, in order that they might see Him, God, glorified through this prophecy fulfilled. And then because of that, turn away from their sinful behavior and turn to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who will save them.

As O'Reilly says, "What say you now?"

Isaiah 53 - part I
Isaiah 53 - part II
Isaiah 53 - part III

If we keep this up, Robert's gonna crucify me! :O

Shy Guy, there are significant problems with that analysis. But, in the interests of staying on subject I will defer more comment to another time.

Beth,

Tell me fg - with Islam on the rise - should we [the non-Muslims] all be getting that 'fuzzy' feeling?

Apparently we're not talking about the same subject. That's ok.

My fuzzy feeling about Islam validates what I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears. Gut feelings are good for something. The feeling I get from Islam is referred to as "The Creeps." Can you dig it? I knew you could.

f.g.

f.g., You called my "proposition" that Allah is Satan, "funny". I will not take offense at that word, but I will ask you to consider it as serious.

Who else could be powerful enough to institutionalize murder, lying, and false worship? Who else could convince people that killing oneself was an act of virtue, which results in heavenly rewards? Who else would identify two specific groups (Jews and Christians) to be targeted for death?

the more pressing issue of whether Judaism and Christianity will survive at all without being utterly subjugated

I think you've already proven that Islam's ultimate goal is the erradication of all other religions and ultimate world control several times over Robert.

Without going into a bunch of needless quotation, I would just like to say it is obvious that "Allah" does not equate to "Yahweh." Also, Islam rejects Christ as the only way to the Father. Therefore if they differ on this most important doctrine they are at odds with one another at the most basic level of belief.

Is there a danger Islam will destroy every other religion and control the world? I believe that is their stated intent. Why doubt them?

The UN or some other like body must condemn and debate the violent aspects of the Islamic tradition and religion in a open forum of some kind. Something more public and more controled than this board of course. But you see what I mean and I think that has been your message all along.

We must have a open dialog about how the Islamic religion and modern society are clashing. No doubt about it.

f.g.

Kennyg,

I, for one, did not regard your point as facetious at all. I cannot imaging a worse Satan than the one conjured up by the vile bedouin murder, rapist, liar, and thief.

Hi Robert

I believe the debate was very important [or I would not have taken part] I will debate this issue no further on this page after this particular post - you have my word on that.

But - the Scriptures that I did put forth - serve to Unite - not divide.

Shy Guy separated himself from the English translation of the Old Testament....and in so many words suggested that I look in 'another direction' to come to the same understanding [what ever it is] as he has.

That only serves to add even more divisions....and God knows - we don't need any more.

I understand the sensibilities of the teachings about Jesus being the Son of God with Jewish religions. I have done my homework on this one - and I know for a fact - that there are Jewish religions that would never deny that God teaches He has a Son .

It's just that many of them deny that Jesus was 'That One Son' [They're still waiting for Him to come the 'first' time]

To ask the question 'Is 'allah' God?" is inviting more than words can say - a major debate between all of this world's religions.

Isn't it about time?

But I stayed with 'The God' referred to in the question - and presented His Scriptures that Unite - not divide.

I can't stress enough - that the Prophecy about Palestine in the Old Testament combined with the Prophecy in the New Testament about the 'abomination that makes desolate' not only unites all peoples of the Bible - but also destroys all of 'allah's' credibility.

I believe Shy Guy is standing in the way of that one powerful Truth - given by God - and not by any of us.

I also believe it is going to take the Power of a SPIRIT - to destroy the power of the spirit of the Koran.

The athiests will never accomplish that - try as they may. They have NO single foundation in which to unite unanimously....that has the Power that the Bible already does [for reason of 'numbers']

If 'allah's' BRUTALITY towards humans doesn't convince this world that the two are not the same?

What will?

That is why I believe such debates are useful. They help to expose the over-whelming ignorance of Muhammad.....a known Murderer....and the mass confusion of what men teach - compared to what God teaches.

Combine mass confusion with a sole Murderer who has many devoted followers - and what do we end up with? [A major blood bath]

I believe the Scriptures given up above serve to Unite - not divide.

We're all in this together.....all of us.

And I care about what all of our eyes are about to see from the results of handing the Koran to the next generation. How many times has it been said? "They grow up so fast" ?

And as much as the 'elite' will deny it - we now have a young generation STARVED for 'worshipping' God/god.

That 'one foundation' that already exists Can [and Will - if the people let it] keep Islam from filling an undeniable void within the younger generation - which has become great.

I also believe in using the laws that are ALREADY on the books - both nationally and internationally....to condemn Islam altogether.

That's 2 Tools [Spiritual AND carnal] - but I see no united power using either of one of them.

What better solution has any one else offered?

Other than killing the 'extremists' - only for the Koran to keep on sending them? by creating more of them? and now even here in America as we speak?

Divided - we all fall....under the most Brutal laws ever written - found in the Koran.

Time is of the essence.

There will be NO "Jihad Watch" in the near future - if we fail to unite successfully and Powerfully in order to take down that which is working fevorishly to take our 'way of life' from us.

And I would miss that - terribly.

Yours Truly,

Beth

Who else could be powerful enough to institutionalize murder, lying, and false worship?

For some reason it's almost always male human beings. Have you noticed that?

I meant no offense. I meant it was amusing from my imagining a Muslim reaction to it. I imagine it would send them into a froth don't you?

Since Satan, Allah, and Yahweh stubbornly refuse to manifest themselves and defy scientific verification of their existence among other things, I can only regard them as characters in books. To do otherwise would be to delude myself into believing something exists just because I want it to. Yes, I wish the Christian doctrine of salvation and resurrection to everlasting life was true. I really do. It has no effect on the reality of the situation though. The ones responsible for all the evil in the world are human beings. Putting the blame on invisible celestial beings is a sorry way to address the problem if you ask me. Rather than combating invisible demons and conducting spiritual warfare we should more concerned with the true motivations of these individuals and get down to root causes. Chasing the supernatural is a vain pursuit and will not solve our very human problems bro.

f.g.

Love and peace at’cha!

Beth: Shy Guy separated himself from the English translation of the Old Testament....

I do not accept the Christian translation of certain Old Testament verses, especially when translated words have no relation to the verse's original words in Hebrew, the language in which they were written in.

and in so many words suggested that I look in 'another direction' to come to the same understanding [what ever it is] as he has.

This all started because of your claim that "the Jews deny Jesus - but not the Son of God". This is theological nonsense, as far as Judaism is concerned.

I have no special problems with being a neighbor, friend or coworker of non-Jews and joining them in joint political and social causes. Why not!

But when you come breathing fire and brimstone and proclaiming that we Jews don't know what Judaism is, well, it is you who divide.

For once, I'll lay off the biblical interpretation, since many have said things with which I agree and answer those with whom I disagree.

Frankly, I believe that the liberal pan-Abrahamism Pipes appeals to is probably bankrupt. As a Trinitarian, Evangelical Christian, I do not admit that I worship the same God as Rabbinism, Islam, Unitarianism, and others that deny that God the Word became flesh and dwelt among us as Jesus Christ. I deny as well that Mormonism, with its evolved Adam and blatant polytheism worships the same God I do, either. As for the liberal theologian's god who has to conform to the fashion of the moment, whether feminism or gay pride, I say only that it proves Jean Calvin's contention that the sinful human heart is a factory for idols and that I need to watch my own. While I believe that it's a pity that so many are misled and pray for their conversion, I'm fine if they agree to disagree with me without being disagreeable.

Does this mean I somehow have a license to hasten people on their way to Hell? By no means! Since the days when Jeremiah wrote to the exiles of Judah, God's marching orders have been to pray and work for the peace of the state in which I find myself, and to make disciples.

Kepha,

Well put. I understand exactly where you are coming from coming from a similar background.

It illustrates an important point about pointlessness.

Beliefs about God and his agenda are extremely diverse amongst the various sects within Christianity. Trying to get them to agree on the nature, attributes, and agenda of God is impossible let alone trying to line those beliefs up with an entirely different religion. It's a laugh. Might as well try to push that camel's butt through the eye of that needle.

Trying to find a loophole for the fanatical Muslims to slip into sanity through is admirable though. I hope it is found quickly.

f.g.

Shy guy;

Sorry I went back to work after I'd posted my post.

I'm pretty glad though, as by the looks of it I'd have been fighting off the temptation to get embroiled in a lo-o-n-nnnggg debate, Which thankfully Mr Spencer put an end to.

(I do agree with Beth though, Jeremiah 31 sums it up perfectly, and I care little about Hasidic apologetics to try and weave out of it.)

By the way, GOD has an 'o' in the middle. So far I personally haven't been struck by lightening for putting it in.

Regards,
Kc

kc England: I care little about Hasidic apologetics to try and weave out of it

If these are mere apologetics, surely you can point out their falacy with great ease.

Go on. Don't be shy!

Shy Guy,

You are doing a beautiful job. You must feel a bit like Nachmanades by now! Keep up the good work.

Yahir Koach!!

-MZ

Typo,

Meant to say, Yashir Koach!

Allah is not God and if God manifests himself to a human being it will be for that persons 'Judgement' this happened to me,(you don't have to be dead to become judged.

Just as the prophets of old witnessed the "Word Of the Lord " is how this manifestation occurs, and far from all the wordy text you fella's have thrown at each other the "Word of the Lord" is one word, TRUTH; for me this one word manifested itself from the Book of Wisdom.

Any theophany (manifestation of God ) will deal with one thing; the subjects salvation! and the measuring line is the Commandments of the Law, and/or the acceptance or rejection of the teaching of Jesus, it is perfect, and confronts a (sinner) person who denies Gods word (Bible) with a position from which he cannot possibly defend unbelief or failure to accept the gift of Christ,
a. God' Word Is Jesus pre birth identity accept this and live before God
b. God has provided his son so that men may wash their robes in the blood of the lamb.Accept this and live before God.
c. The (Spirit of )TRUTH Judges all those who have denied God and allowed Christ to die as an unworthy sacrifice, he will furiously expend judgement on those who knew the seriousness of their sin and did not repent and his anger will be justified.

The Spirit of Truth manifested himself to me as a Great Two Edged Sword made of pure power and he span before me to the left and to the right examining my life Forwards and backwards past my deathe where he said "Another , another one saved in the end".
This was the most terrifying event in my life but i know why he is called the Counsellor as well as the Judge , No-one justified by faith will face this judgement because Jesus says " they have passed from Judgement to life" but no Muslim except, one who perfoms an act of mercy, before death which is worthy of grace can escape this judgement because they are taught a philosophy of hate contrary to the teaching of the Bible which is an antithesis to Jews and Christians philosophy. Jihad is unworthy before God you cannot make an offering of another human being, Jesus says "my life is my own no-one can take it from me".
Muhammad is responsible for a culture which denies the God of Abraham isaac and jacob, which fetters the Word of God in Christ and for that he was judged and the murder and misery his teaching has caused and will cause will be another torment in hell for him, he not only invented the intervention of the Angel Gabriel at last three times he tried to take the mantle of the Holy Spirit and for these sins he will never ever be forgiven.

Also
They cannot become regenerated at the resurrection because they do not accept the sacrice of the cross, and in turn the body of Christ at the altar, which is the necessary food which will cause their resurrection.

This in relation to the above means that they may not come to the resurrection unless they first come back into the world as a Jew or a Christian, providing they can avoid hell !

I thought the point of this site and this post was to try to find a way for Muslims to escape their theological headlock, -which puts them at homicidal odds with all other faiths, ...not one more tohu-bohu badmitten match with that same old sacrosanct shuttlecock of competing Biblical quotes.

Has anyone through history ever convinced anyone of another faith that their quotes were superior to the other's?

I've never seen it happen.

They dig in, dig up dogma, and duel.

All it does is amuse the eavesdropping jihadists with the mobius strip-like self-absorption of the A.D. dogmatist and the B.C. dogmatist as they play the M.C. Escher-esque through-the-lookinglass game.

My quote's bigger than your quote!

My God's better than yours!

Meanwhile Islam, -which thinks the exact same thing, feels smugly superior to this Judeo-Christian exegesis match, because, in the exact same way, THEY TOO THINK THEY HAVE THE 'BEST' QUOTES.

And, since their book is the 'latest rendition'of this tradition, they are, of course, in possession of the FINAL, ultimate quotes.

Thus, theirs are the "truest". "Best". "Wisest". Etc.

But, until they can re-envision and humanize the darker aspects of their own Koranic suras (9:5, et al), we and they are trapped in the original warfare declared by Mohammad. Which will never be able to end, because he is no longer alive to continue to 'revise' his words.

His followers need to do it.

We need to encourage them.

Not flip faith's confabulous flapjacks in a tit-for-tat contest that has no conclusion, no agreed-upon rules, no Earthly point and gives no help to the current cause of defusing Islamic Imperialism.

As Mr. Spencer reminded:

FOCUS!

Stop the manichean mudwrestling in the foxhole!

The snipers are calibrating the distance to the noise.

And chuckling -as their ontological opponents do their divisive dirty work for them.

Remember the seriousness of what is happening in the world.

(And take a hint from The Book of the Tao:

"The emptiness within is as vital as the form without.")

If Christians used the name of God used in the New Testament, it would be the same as the names used in the Old Testament - with the exception of Yeshua (Christ), who believe is the God of the OT in the flesh as man.

That said, there are many similarities between the OT and NT. The book of Daniel, Ezekiel, Jer., have chapters very very similar to Revelation. Lets not forget Paul also, who made a business by killing off Jewish Christians, was also a scholar of Judaism, and at first also did not believe that Christ was God in the Flesh. He changed his mind, despite the persecution he suffered after believing in Christ. Your Hebrew is good Shy Guy, but so was Paul’s, and nobody suffers for what they know is a lie, especially with their life.

It’s a pity that early gentile Christians did not keep the original Hebrew names of God. I believe the early Jewish and Gentile Christians did, until the advent of the Roman Catholic Church, and all the "Replacement Theology" that followed, re "New Covenant" stuff etc, which still exists today in many (but not all) Catholic and Protestant churches.

That's the exiting thing about the NT, nowhere does it say that the Christians have replaced the Jews (Replacement theology - that the Jews 'stuffed up therefore all the promises to Abraham are transferred to Christians = load of croc, and helped fuel anti Semitism).

The NT also says that the Jews are "blinded" until the second coming of Christ when they will gaze upon his wounds and realise who He is. So Beth, while your efforts are valiant, remember that passage!

That said - from a Biblical point of view, God ain't finished with the Jews! There are still many prophecies to Abraham, that are based on 'race' or tribe, rather than the promises based on Grace that come from Christ. I believe we are seeing the beginning of those promises with the return of the Jews to Israel (praise God!)

Also - despite the differences between Jews and Christians, don't forget the commonality between the two:

1) That Both the NT and OT ARE JEWISH BOOKS (as much as some Christians don't like that fact, and do all they can to avoid "Hebrew Roots" of their Christianity) As such we should look at the NT from the Hebrew perspective, it makes a heap more sense of both OT and NT if you do). The Koran is Arabic; which defies the Jewish history of the OT and NT, not to mention that in the Torah, that God says that it is through THE JEWISH people that he would bless the world. That blessing is the WORD of God. Mo ain’t Jewish so I doubt his word automatically!!!!!

2) That both the Jews and Christians have suffered horribly at the hands of Muslims. And while the record of the Christian churches anti Semitism has been rife through history (for which there is no NT Biblical justification), neither of the Jewish or Christian texts advocate the killing and vilification of Muslims.

The Koran does.

The Koran does that is, command the killing and vilification of Jews and Christians.

"By the way, GOD has an 'o' in the middle. So far I personally haven't been struck by lightening for putting it in."

Hi kc,

The reason some of us are not putting an 'o' in G-d is out of respect, not fear. We respect G-d deeply and want to remind ourselves at all time to not indifferently throw the word around as if it were a common word. It is part of the "Do not lift up the name of the L-rd your G-d in vain" commandment. Simply put, it is a fence used, mostly by Jews, to prevent us from treading upon that commandment. For if we do not throw around the title of G-d so easily, we certainly will be even more careful to not use His name in vain.

"By the way, GOD has an 'o' in the middle. So far I personally haven't been struck by lightening for putting it in."

Hi kc,

The reason some of us are not putting an 'o' in G-d is out of respect, not fear. We respect G-d deeply and want to remind ourselves at all time to not indifferently throw the word around as if it were a common word. It is part of the "Do not lift up the name of the L-rd your G-d in vain" commandment. Simply put, it is a fence used, mostly by Jews, to prevent us from treading upon that commandment. For if we do not throw around the title of G-d so easily, we certainly will be even more careful to not use His name in vain.

Shy,

I applaud your efforts to get people to read the Bible in its original Hebrew text - something that I wish more Christians would learn how to do - but Mr. Spencer is correct, this is not the forum to move into these sorts of debates.

At one time, I also used to believe that the English translations were solid, I later learned there was a lot that I did not know, and several of the "Messianic" quotes whose translations are just plain wrong. However, I recommend you not push people in this matter unless they are interested in learning about it themselves. Take it from one who has gone through the disorientation of having their world view deeply challenged and their original faith stand ripped away, it is not a fun process to go through. So, even if you are wanting to push a person that direction, please refrain and allow that other person to come to it on their own - should they decide to go there.

Paula: I recommend you not push people in this matter unless they are interested in learning about it themselves.

Had poster Beth not falsly claimed here that Judaism shares the Christian-only concept of a "son of god", I would have limited my posting here to my on-topic reference of Maimonides' 13 Principles of Faith.

This is not the first time this is happening on this forum. Posters like Beth take it for granted that this is a Christian Evangelical forum, where proselytizing and preaching from up high to those not of the Christian faith, is par for the course.

Unlike Christianity (and Islam, for that matter - ON TOPIC), Judaism does not believe in active proselytization of others. I normally have no problem with any Christian believing in their faith and with their quotes from the Torah or the NT.

But when such people start addressing Jews with claims that we don't know what Judaism is and with clumsy distortions of the Torah specifically addressed to us, well, we Jews no longer shut up and will respond.

So, Paula, with all due respect, please ask your fellow co-religionists to practice what you preach.

And so ends my sermon from the mount. Where's the down chairlift?

Pathetic, Spencer.

You spend all this typing a "refutation" to Pipes' scholarship that Allah and God refer to the same supreme Deity. Obviously, so obviously, historically they do.

You have managed to hack (appropriate term) out a demi career (or is that dhimmi career) for some time on borrowed, specious "scholarship" and character assassinations of others.

But THIS article is good. Why? Because it exposes you, and frankly the word in Washington is that you're done like a dinner.

Bye bye. And not a minute too soon. Everybody from the ZOA to the National Jewish Committee is sick of your lying to inflame an already serious situation.

Windsor:

Your comment is typical of a tendency:

You shower abuse on my post, misrepresenting what I actually said, offering no substantive refutation.

You accuse me of "character assassination," although you produce no examples (and cannot), while attempting to do just that to me.

And you claim that I am now "exposed" etc. among various groups, flying in the face of the fact that I spoke at one of those you name, the ZOA, just last week and was quite well received.

I think a revelation of who you are and why you are writing this would be most interesting, but I will hold off for now.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

I warned the Duke and Duchess ages ago to install CyberSitter to keep track of the kiddies.

See what happens?!

Robert - Windsor has probably seen your picture as "Darth Spencer", and it is giving him nightmares.

Windsor is OK......its just a picture, Robert isn't really Darth Spencer from the dark side.

You spend all this typing a "refutation" to Pipes' scholarship that Allah and God refer to the same supreme Deity. Obviously, so obviously, historically they do.

"It is no surprise that the Jews and Christians deny the Koran. What is amazing is that some ignoramuses and traitors from among the Muslims say: 'The Jews and Christians are our brothers...' (Sheikh Mustafa Bin Sa'id Aytim preaching in Mecca)

In a sermon delivered at the Manar Al-Islam mosque in Mecca, Sheikh 'Ali Muhammad Al-Baroum said: "The idea of intertwining religions and the claim that the Jews and the Christians believe in religions of truth… are sinful claims and deceitful ideas unacceptable to the religion [of Islam]… It is forbidden to bring together Islam and the infidels, monotheism and polytheism… Allah's path of righteousness and Satan's path of Kufur."

Weiss-Schwartz Syndrome? Morgaan [sic]le Fay? C'mon Robert, give us a hint.

you don't have to be dead to become judged

Posted by: breadwinner

Our 'works' follow us. In the Grave - we wait

But, until they can re-envision and humanize the darker aspects of their own Koranic suras (9:5, et al),

Posted by: BigSleep

I believe it is too late for that. Maybe 1000 years ago - but not now - it's too late.

That's the exiting thing about the NT, nowhere does it say that the Christians have replaced the Jews (Replacement theology - that the Jews 'stuffed up therefore all the promises to Abraham are transferred to Christians = load of croc, and helped fuel anti Semitism).

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew FIRST, and also to the Greek. {{{{ the Original New Testament was written in the Greek language]

And I will not debate with shy guy - because I gave my word

Windsor is a perfect example of what is ailing this world.

Vicious attacks by words - and no patience - nor any facts given as to why they throw around such words.

Even the 'terrorists' explain their actions - they give their reasons for doing the thingd they do.

Windsor is another one who likes divisios

divisions

Beth

>>you don't have to be dead to become judged

Posted by: breadwinner

Is Allah God?

HELL NO!

"This is not the first time this is happening on this forum. Posters like Beth take it for granted that this is a Christian Evangelical forum, where proselytizing and preaching from up high to those not of the Christian faith, is par for the course.

Unlike Christianity (and Islam, for that matter - ON TOPIC), Judaism does not believe in active proselytization of others. I normally have no problem with any Christian believing in their faith and with their quotes from the Torah or the NT.

But when such people start addressing Jews with claims that we don't know what Judaism is and with clumsy distortions of the Torah specifically addressed to us, well, we Jews no longer shut up and will respond."

Hello again Shy, :-)

I can understand your frustration. And, I agree with most all of what you said. As to the initial argument, you are right and she is wrong. The concept of "son of G-d" is a Jewish concept, in that it originated in Judaism. Christianity has redefined it into its own definition. However, when the other person will not listen to you, despite the amount of time you spend trying to show them they are Biblically incorrect, they aren't going to listen to you. That's all I was trying to say. She has reasons of her own for rejecting anything you have to say, and in such a case, you just have to let it go.

You are also right about the way some Christians approach Jews and Judaism as well. My brother, who obtained his degree in NT Biblical scholarship, thinks I know very little about anything because I have studied Judaism and have converted to it. He believes he knows WAY more than I do about a faith I have been living for over 14 years. I also came from an arrogance that I understood everything about Judaism, because as a once Bible studying Christian I knew all about the Bible. I learned I was DEAD WRONG. But I had to learn it for myself. I was so arrogant the only way I was going to learn anything was to discover I really didn't know anything at all. This is where my last post was coming from. Sorry if I said anything that offended you. It was not my intent.

"So, Paula, with all due respect, please ask your fellow co-religionists to practice what you preach."

Alas, I cannot do this for I am standing on your side of the fence. :-)

Wishing you well.

Those who are not judged are those who are justified believing in God's WORD (Jesus) they have passed from death to life.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works [dividing the Scriptures and presenting them], is dead, being alone.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. {That's a commandment]

Mat 5:16 Let your 'light' so shine before men

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

None of that 'arrogance' is from me. I didn't write it. It was writen long before I was even born.

If you go up and take out all of the Scriptures in my post - what will the story be then? Try it

It will be different - for sure

Those who are not judged are those who are justified believing in God's WORD (Jesus) they have passed from death to life.

Posted by breadwinner

I was responding first to breadwinner - and then to Paula

Go back up and take out all of the Scriptures [copy and paste just my words separately]

What do you get? Try it

It's not me they're upset with

Paula,

Shabbat Shalom. See you at the Kiddush Club!

Beth, Shy, Paula.

The Jews were waiting for God and he manifested himself in Jesus, when Jesus was nailed to the cross it was the Spirit of Truth and Logos who said "It is accomplished".

This is the Truth, God and Jesus are one by Holy Spirit which was raised in Jesus, and who was his pre-existant personality.

This same pre-existant personality cannot be grasped by the understanding of men, they are subject to him, and to his judgement, yet in Jesus (just as in the miracle of water into wine) a man who has sinned against God is justified in the same sense that Abraham was justified, that is by believing in God.

Furthermore this information has come from men who were Jews not Christians, they became Christians by the way the Truth changed them.

"Paula,

Shabbat Shalom. See you at the Kiddush Club!"

Ah, now there's something we can both heartily agree upon! Shabbat Shalom L'cha.

:-)

God is justified in the same sense that Abraham was justified, that is by believing in God.

BINGO!

Posted by: breadwinner
Furthermore this information has come from men who were Jews not Christians, they became Christians by the way the Truth changed them.

Posted by: breadwinner

BINGO! Again

Another thing they can't deny of the Torah is this:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.

Where's the New Covenant - if not in the Bible?

Breadwinner - you are keeping the commands - not ONLY believing - but by speaking it also.

Smile - God Bless You

Beth

Jesus talked at length of his pre-existance and it is ignored by Christians, because it is a difficult to understand , yet if they dont understand they cannot differentiate past present and future tenses.

. Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven
. The Spirit of Truth spoke in Jesus "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up"
. At the birth of Jesus angels annunciated his arrival and mandate
. John the Baptist the arisen Elijah
. The Narrow Door a place not a metaphor

I have had 2 revelations of God, these are not private revelations, and i have memory of a past life, what is more important is the fact that Grace is revealed by actions which spring from truth.

beth: Another thing they can't deny of the Torah is this:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.

Where's the New Covenant - if not in the Bible?

You seem to never be able to respond to the specifics. I wonder why.

Actually, I don't.

Ok, I should listen to myself above, but this is just too good to let it pass... So, I am apologizing in advance for it. ;-)

"It's not me they're upset with

Posted by: Beth

LOL!!!

Who's upset? I am just stating a fact. You are wrong. What is to be upset about. ;-)

Wishing you well.

Easily denied. This was already answered by me in this post, above.
You seem to never be able to respond to the specifics. I wonder why.

Actually, I don't.

Posted by: Shy Guy

I'm sorry Robert - but for the sake of others who are looking for the True God - I will

If it is so easy shy guy - why haven't you given any Scriptures here on this page in your own posts? if it is so easy?

Your argument is with the Word of God - given to the Whole World by God - not me.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt;

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Anyone who wants it - can have it - by the One and Only Christ - and no other way.

Mic 1:2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple. [which temple ye are} 1Cr 3:17

Psa 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword [Word of God] in their hand; To execute upon them the judgment [already] written : this honor have all his saints. Psa 149:9

So says King David

Jesus already laid the foundation for that invisible temple. All are welcomed.

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet.

Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Stiffnecked - because you deny life - by denying the Word EVEN of the Torah.

Exd 15:14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina. {Song of Moses - the saints 'sing' this song} Rev 15:3

Isa 14:31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Those are the Words of God. Take them out - and what do you get by my own words?

It is God Who is the Teacher - not me.

I have responded to you shy guy - with the Word God - over and over - without sending you off somewhere else. The others can see that.

It's important - because Eternal Life is at stake

Zec 6:15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.

Tts 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Zec 8:16 These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates:

Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Here is another one from the OLD TESTAMENT - and it is GREAT!...

Isa 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail

It goes with this one:

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing [The Word of God] which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you

Tts 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These are the ones who assemble themselves - into the resurrection of Life - because they 'sing' the song of Moses - and the song of the Lamb - as was commanded - on a level that a child can understand.

The rest scatter - and some graves don't even appear at the 'Calling'

Luk 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. {OLD TESTAMENT!

We don't enter the REAL Israel until then

2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

By the way - the name Israel is all through the Koran - BUT NOT the name Palestine.

Isa 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail

It goes with this one:

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing [The Word of God] which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you

The Truth - Shall - Set - You - Free

You seem to never be able to respond to the specifics. I wonder why.

Actually, I don't.

Posted by: Shy Guy

Mat 12:37 By thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Isa 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, shall name.

Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Mat 12:37 By thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Beth: If it is so easy shy guy - why haven't you given any Scriptures here on this page in your own posts? if it is so easy?

I've also referenced links to sites where pretty much every such inaccuracy thrown at us here is shown to be the shoddy "scholarly" workmaship that it is.

I have responded to you shy guy - with the Word God - over and over - without sending you off somewhere else. The others can see that.

Regarding Torah verse you have quoted, I've responded for the most part, pointing out where your falacies are. You have yet to respond TO THE POINT on a single dispute I have shown you.

As far as all of your quotes from the NT, as I've been showing (and you've been ignoring), there is no mention of Jesus, Trinity or the NT anywhere in the entire Torah, once you come to terms with the abuses of Hebrew Christian claims of proof are based on.

As such, every single NT quote you toss out here is of zero significance to me and to the Jewish nation - no different than Christinity's (and Judaism's) total disbelief in any Muslim claims of divine authenticity of the Quran.

Yours is a new, illegal belief, according to the Torah and Jewish law. Judaism view Jesus as simply a false prophet, again just as Christianity (and Judaism) holds the same of Islam's Mohamed.

That's the way it's been for 2000 years. You don't seem to catch on. You are simply wasting pixels when trying to bait me with NT verses. If there just for your own self-conviction, so be it.

BTW, I fail to understand your excitement at the name "Palestine". Do you have any inkling where that name for the Land of Israel originated from?