Italy Judge Orders Arrest of 13 CIA Agents

As Oriana Fallaci points out, the magistrates in Italy, or a subset are them, are divorced from reality but wedded to their la-la-land leftist ideology. This judge seems to be the brother, or perhaps one might better say brother-in-law, of the Bergamo pm who is hellbent on prosecuting Fallacia for "vilifying" (well, "vilipendio") Islam.

Too bad Montanelli isn't alive to comment on this.

OK, I am going to say something rather unpopular here. But if the US had ever treated Italy as if it was an independent country, rather than a despised proconsulate, perhaps you would get more assistance. Why the fuck did these morons abduct a man from the territory of an independent state, instead of asking for his extradition? Not because they do not trust the Italian authorities; because they do not consider them. Italians do not trust American secret agencies, for a number of reasons, and Montanelli would have been the first to tell you so. You never heard about the airplane brought down by American fire in Ustica in 1980, have you? Of course not; only 80 Italian lives were lost - so of course it was not worth investigating or punishing any Americans who might have mistaken an Italian passenger airliner for, oh, say, a Lybian warplane. Or what about that American air pilot who tore the cable of a mountain cable car for fun and murdered twenty civilians? He was punished? I don't think so; the American investigation was a whitewash, and they refused to extradite the murderer to Italy. There is a long history of such accidents. And that is not to mention the really serious crimes - Gladio, the secret army intended to overthrow Italian democracy if ever Italians voted the wrong way, the involvement with Fascist terrorists and murderers like Stefano delle Chiaie - and on and on and on. Tell me, Hugh, if another country had abducted someone from American soil, how would you react? If another country had consistently disregarded American independence, ignored American authorities, plotted against American sovereignty - how would you react? If you want collaboration, give collaboration; and if you do not, do not be suprised that our law officers think first of enforcing our law, and only second of any political concerns you may have.

These freelancing prosecutors are doing their own thing. They could care less how Silvio Berlusconi would like it nor about Italian security concerns. Which would be to not embarrass our CIA. These prosecutors are running off the rails traitors same as our Donk party diehards who undermine George Bush’s efforts at every turn, in order to gain political advantage. G Bush isn’t perfect on Islam but the Donks are in full submission mode to this wacko cult born of a fevered Arabian brain 13 centuries ago. Just look how fevered brain Donks hammer G Bush on Guantanamo with comparisons to Russian gulags and Nazi concentration camps.

"Which side are you on?" was the old socialist union tune. NOT- whose side are you on.

The Traditional LE Paradigm is Ill Prepared to Fight the GWOT

See my comment in a similar discussion over at Winds of Change.

I am a law enforcement professional with over thirty years experience, twenty as an investigator, in a large metro city (300K) in Sourthern California. I've given considerable thought to the question of what local, regional, and state law enforcement's role should be in the GWOT.

I've come to the conclusion that the traditional law enforcement paradigm is ill-equipped to deal with the GWOT domestically within the US for a number of reasons. I've written several essays on this subject . . .

[...]

Red More Here

At least the Italians have stopped funding the insurgency with fake kidnappings of sympathetic Communist journalists.

Paolo

Or what about that American air pilot who tore the cable of a mountain cable car for fun

Not much I can say at this point but it's too bad he didn't drop some bombs on Rome while he was at it.

...Tell me, Hugh, if another country had abducted someone from American soil, how would you react?..

Paolo, I know if it was a Muslim, I would say GREAT. Adbuct as many as you want.

If the Administration persists with a policy of torture, and that includes outsourced torture, it will help accomplish Bin Laden's goal of driving a wedge between the USA and Europe.

I often find myself in disagreement with Paolo, his attitude on social issues is the opposite of mine, but in this case I agree.

The US crapped in it's own bucket, by it's cavalier treatment of Italy. They do treat Italy like a stepchild.

And the rest of you clowns had better wake up before it's too late, the problem in Italy and elsewhere's is not necessarily leftist ideology, that's too easy a dismissive, it makes you feel good, but it doesn't serve, because it misses the point.

I communicate daily on another forum with Europeans, who are not LEFTISTS, but actually conservatives and Christians,they have complete and total disdain for the US, because the US acts arrogantly towards Europe, and the US has evidenced a frontal lobotomy, by voting for a man who is destroying it from within, and alienating the world, by his lies, arrogance, false machismo and stupidity. They can't trust a country or government who believes as George does, that god speaks to him, or he is doing gods' work, or as Barbara Bush told her son... you are the new Moses.

Europeans think Americans are too full of themselves, arrogant, self centered, stupid and who believe the world is their personal sandbox, which they can exploit, command or befoul with toxins and pollution.

Europeans don't like us, and neither does the rest of the world, and it is our fault..self righteous arrogance and an insane belief in manifest destiny.

They will of course criticize, confront and thwart us at every opportunity, stopping just short of all out economic or military war.

You would do the same if you shared your neighbor with an arrogant, self righteous, self centered bully.

We are part of the world community, but mistakingly and arrogantly believe that the world community is our litter box.

Your President even supported the overthrow of a democratically elected President, who was also a priest, and using our armed forces kidsnppaed him and sent him into exile, replacing him with a murdering fascist thug. I'm talking of Aristedes of Haiti, escorted by special forces troops and sent to South America, so a fascist and murdering dictator could take charge.

From South America, to Europe, to Asia to Asia and Africa (leaving out the mid east) we have no allies, and we can only maintain our hegemony so long as our economy can sustain milltary force, but if the Arabs squeeze their sphincter muscles, we will die, we are addicted to "black crack" and the Arabs own and control the stuff, and the sources in South America are now alienated because of the "privatization" policies of this administration and it' puppets in the World Bank and IMF.

We don't act like good neighbors or good world citizens, but like a school yard bully, because as a nation and people we are immature and self righteous, but school yard bullies don't last forever.

It's not too late to grow up.

Where I wrote Sweden I actually meant Italy.

http://nodhimmitude.blogspot.com/

Or what about that American air pilot who tore the cable of a mountain cable car for fun and murdered twenty civilians?

You can't seriously be suggesting that the pilot deliberately cut the cable? At worst he was criminally negligent. Last time I checked murder requires some kind of intent.

Some people here are amazing. The talent for knowing what people think and believe without any evidence...amazing!

George Bush believes that G-d speaks to him? The government believes that G-d speaks to him?? Could you give me a George Bush quote that would lead you to believe that Bush thinks that G-d directs him with a voice during a conversation. What you may think about people who pray for guidance and the actual response may be confusing you.

Regarding our (US) arrogance toward Europe, do you have any examples handy? Do you count our presence in Europe's defense for over 60 years as arrogance?

Let me pick out a few of your own words.."insane"-"stupid"-"arrogant"-"self-centered"-"bully"-"insane"-"stupid". I think Americans are too busy working and paying taxes to pay for all that arrogance to actually be all those descriptors.

I think it was DeGaul who said "nations have interests,not friends", but it doesn't matter who said it,I think it is true. I want my country to do what is right for us (for a change) and let those who would hate us do it. Seems as if we have a lot of people here in this country who seem to hate us..right Giaour?

One fact that should never be forgotten is that it will serve Islam well if a wedge is forced between America and Europe. This is in fact what Islamic media outlets in Europe are attempting to do via propaganda designed to promote Judeophobia and Anti Americanism. A divided West is less of a threat than a united one.

Permission should have been sought from the Italian Government to extradite Osama Nasr. If this was not done then this a gross error of judgement. However, once such a request was forthcoming, then there no reason why the request should not have been granted. Islam threatens both Europe and America and every effort should be made to work together to deal with this threat.

Where does Berlusconi
stand on this? [A quick news search - doesn't say]

Paolo, I know if it was a Muslim, I would say GREAT. Adbuct as many as you want.

Posted by: reset

I believe that is what Berlusconi would say.

Giour:

"Europeans don't like us, and neither does the rest of the world, and it is our fault..self righteous arrogance and an insane belief in manifest destiny."

One thing you have in common with GWB: You are obsessed with being 'liked'- then -of course- the 'it's our fault'-cringing like the all of todays apologists who should rather keep their mouths shut and try to educate themselves and others about what Islam is and does.

Unfortunately America has a president (and an administration) that is not up to the job. A president who is hardly articulate, far from eloquent and unable to formulate policy and convince its allies to back them, a president who is generally seen as a cowboy, is no medicine for the European leftie-elite, who do not see any authority or resolve in the US-politics of today.

Paolo:

"Why the fuck did these morons abduct a man from the territory of an independent state, instead of asking for his extradition? Not because they do not trust the Italian authorities; because they do not consider them."

Italy still has -even now- a large communist party. Are the numbers as high as 20 % or more? I don't really think it is a problem for the Berlusconi government to cooperate with the US on Islamic terrorism. Al Quaeda doesn't care for rules, let's not have too much patriotism cloud the issue!

There are obviously many communists in government and in the judiciary. Most of them are blowboys looking for 5 minutes of fame, and the Bergamo judge and the Fallaci case is a typical example for this infamy of the communists to obstruct and to fill their buckets with lard.

"Round them up wherever you find them, detain them, prosecute them, If their own muzzie friends apply a little torture, I have no problem with that, not at all....".

Paolo, how about the Italian airplane jockies who killed almost 300 Americans at Rhine Maine? How about the Achille Larel kidnapper release?
How about running a roadblock and risking the life of US troops?
Get that man's name and keep him out of the country.

"Tell me, Hugh, if another country had abducted someone from American soil, how would you react?"
--- from a posting above

It depends on who did the abducting, and whom they abducted. If Italy wanted to abduct a Muslim suspected of being connected to terrorism, I would not object at all. Or if the government of India sent agents to abduct some Pakistani involved in terrorism against Hindu villagers in Kashmir, I would not obect either. Why should I? This is a war. On the one side are Infidels, many of whom do not even begin to comprehend that such a war is being conducted, that given the tenets of Islam such a war is inevitable and will flare up in violence, rather than be confined to Da'wa and demographic conquest and economic warfare, whenever the opportunity presents itself, and the wherewithal exists. And on the other side, in the black trunks and balaklava, those who think that the last word about everything is contained in that Total Explanation and Regulation and Guide to the Universe, the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira.

By the way, Montanelli had a very good comment on the investigation a few years ago into the accident in which American pilots hit, I think, a pylon or perhaps a ski-lift, and some Italians were killed. He wrote in his "Stanza" (and they have all been collected, published, and are widely on sale) that he would prefer the investigation into the incident to be carried out not by the Italians, but by the Americans, whom -- he wrote -- he trusted far more.

The Giuliana-lagna-lagna-Sgrena farce is another example. I trust the results of the American military's investigation. There is one person who, above all, is responsible for the death of Nicola Calipari -- and that person is Giuliana Sgrena herself.

I am presently scarce on time, which means that I don't have the time to comment on as many posts as I would wish. I am thus forced to select those that are particularly relevant, and this one is one of those.

I am disappointed, because people don't learn, or at least some of you won't learn. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read Hugh - which I take for a highly intelligent individual - to actually protest when an independent nation like Italy would actually object to having her national integrity - in this case its judicial integrity - stepped upon by 13 American spies.

Paolo, and to a slightly lesser extent, Giaour, who were both the voices of reason, were criticized and called God knows what, for saying the obvious thing: in this particular case, the CIA OBVIOUSLY SCREWED UP and it is her fault.

Now, if any of you thinks that this will look good in Italy, then you are utterly stupid. I told this once and I will say it again: real friends ask for help, they don't boss around others to be helped. And more importantly, real friends don't stab each other, and in my view this is as disgusting as the ramsom that Italy paid to rescue the two ungrateful communists from their Iraqi captors.

While I await to be called "anti-American" (I am certainly not one) or a European with leftist-pan Islamic tendencies (LMAO), let me just say one last thing: if you don't learn to be objective and impartial about your own fuckups, then the war you are presently leading is already lost.

For heaven's sake, stop making our job - I mean, the job of us Europeans that are actually pro-American - harder than it already is. Otherwise, the European centre-right (which is still to a large extent pan-Atlantic) wqill be forced to choose a third path, which is that of isolationism, and then you will have lost a valuable (and loyal) friend.

Now, by all means, let the anti-European bashing begin. Or the prayers for our future, for that matter. I don't know which annoys me the most: your self-centred ignorance or your zelotic arrogance.

Hugh: you seem to have some problem with the notion of a country being independent. In Italy, Italian law applies. If you think you have a right to disregard it for whatever reason, you go to jail; and our cops and judges, many of whom risk their lives daily against mafia and terrorists, will not treat you with any indulgence. If Montanelli - on one of his off days - was dumb enough to say that he trusted American military justice to deal with an American military who had killed civilians for fun, he was plainly wrong, since the guy was let off with, I believe, six months. You are aware that I am not likely to show any sympathy for muslim murderers; but if, to catch one miserable twerp, whose importance in the world clash of hundreds of millions against billions is less than zero, you insult and violate Italian law, confirming, incidentally, a historical pattern of contempt and law-breaking by American agencies under both Republican and Democrat presidents (let's not have any rubbish about Bush being special, Giaour), then I tell you that Italy has not one, but two enemies, and that we shall act accordingly. Whose side am I on? On my country's side; on the side of what my fathers and ancestors fought and died for, what has been defended against mafia and terrorism and corruption, the one thing I swore to defend as a soldier - the Italian constitution and state. If you don't like it, whether you are a Muslim or a Yank, get the fuck out of Italy, because you don't belong here.

Excellent post, Paolo. Spoken like a true patriot.

"Hugh: you seem to have some problem with the notion of a country being independent."
-- from a posting above

No, I don't. But I am not about the kidnapping of an Egyptian national who is then "rendered" back to Egypt, even if he was conducting his Jihadist activites in Italy. When asked if I would object to Italian agents doing something similar (seizing a Muslim national of a Muslim nation, who perhaps was whipping up his worshippers to go, let us say, to "destroy the Vatican" and "take over Rome" as Muhammad himself had "predicted" when he supposedly had a vision of "first Constantinople, then Rome." I unhesitatingly answered "No, I would not." Nor, I added, would I object if agents of the Indian government, determined to pick up, say, a Pakistani national, or a Saudi one, involved in terrorism in Kashmir (or against Sikhs or Hindus in Toronto, London, Vancouver, or Sydney). Why does this general support for such actions, which is not limited to American agents, mean that I "have some problem with the notion of a country being independent"? If the seizure is prompted by a reasonable fear of imminent violence that needs to be prevented, why should one object? The American legal system, like the Italian one, poses obstacles that somehow have to be overcome. The problem is that this is a war, but not a war on a battlefield, and it is difficult for people to see that such a war requires, as Lincoln argued when he suspended habeas corpeus, different rules to meet an increased threat. He was writing during the Civil War. How much more dangerous is delay now, where the weapons can kill tens and hundreds of thousands, and the enemy, in its world-view and embrace of death, almost psychotic in a way we Infidels simply cannot bring ourselves to believe.

In the case of these C.I.A. agents who seized one , information suggests that the C.I.A. men may have acted precipitously, because the Italians were, in fact, preparing a case against the person spirited off to Egypt. In large part, these acts out of thrillers seem overdone; also disturbing was the news that this huge contingent spent $144,000 on their hotel rooms in such places as the Principe de Savoia (did they manage to lodge at the Hassler, too?), and after the deed of derring-do was done, apparently one or two then relaxed in hotels in Venice, Florence, and so on. Our tax dollars at work.

It is one thing to regard the particular action as overblown or silly (and what was the nationality of those C.I.A. agents -- were they all native Americans, or were Muslim informants enjoying the high-life on the C.I.A. tab?) or unnecessary, given what has been written about the investigation of Italian authorities that was, we are told, proceeding to a proper conclusion (and ff which I was unaware until today). But it is another thing to object when an ally and friend deems it necessary to remove someone out of its own considerations.

Imagine, if you will, Toni Negri or some much more violent B.R. planner, whom Italian officials were sure was deeply involved in some murders at the Bologna rail-station, and the Italians also realized that the Americans were investigating these B.R. people but felt that the B.R. was just about to engage in other acts, and there was no time to lose, and they simply had to whisk someone away. Unlikely as a hypothetical -- but impossible? I would not object in the slightest to Italian agents removing a B.R. terrorist from American soil. Would you? And does my lack of objection mean that I don't believe in the idea of "independence" or that I think the secret services of various friends and allies deserve a little leeway. And even if the Italian government wished privately to object to the action, and to ask the Americans to please consult with them just a little more carefully (and again, I wonder about the influence of "friendly" Muslims in this investigation, possibly egging on the American agents so as to be in a position to win points by offering Egypt's special interrogation methods -- a line of inquiry worth pursuing, by some journalist).

Berlusconi could have done it, or Fini, or Castelli. But to have a warrant issued for their arrest and to make a capital crime out of the whole thing is -- well, another matter.

As for Montanelli, you write:

"If Montanelli - on one of his off days - was dumb enough to say that he trusted American military justice to deal with an American military who had killed civilians for fun, he was plainly wrong, since the guy was let off with, I believe, six months."

This misstates what I wrote about Montanelli. Montanelli wrote that he trusted American investigators to investigate the circumstances surrounding the incident under discussion (the American plane that flew so low it slit wires that led to deaths of Italians), not that he "trusted American military justice to deal with an American military [sic] who had killed civilians for fun." Quite a phrase.

And then there is the suggestion that perhaps Italy has "not one but two enemies" and perhaps, if things continue as they are (yes, what with American pilots constantly cutting wires, and C.I.A. agents abducting fine, law-abiding Italians every other week), that citizens of Italy will have to regard those "two enemies" with equal alarm. And what are those enemies? Why, the United States, and Islam. Equal, mirror-images, the same deadly threats to the civilization of Italy. Really?

On the one hand, there are the American soldiers who drove out the German soldiers (who had already, in Yugoslavia and Albania and Greece, been murdering by the thousands and tens of thousands Italian troops who had turned against them). There was American aid after the war to help reconstruct a country that, unlike Iraq, was full of people willing to work, and genuinely grateful. There was the aid given, often indirectly, to help stop the threat from the largest Communist party in Western Europe, that of Italy, basking in the glow of having rewritten the history of the Partisans to give them an almost exclusively Communist cast (which, as we know now, was false), and in Saint Gramsci, and all the rest of what made those offices on Botteghe Oscure the fashionable place, for many, to be. The Americans have not always been brilliant. Sometimes they have been clumsy, sometimes stupid. It was insulting, for example, for the American government to send over the uneducated John Volpe as Ambassador in the early 1970s simply because he was an "Italo-American" but not a cultivated one. Professor Richard Gardner was much better, though not Italo-American, and not someone who, therefore, could presumably give a meant-to-be-stirring and most absurdly proprietary peroration on Italy as a place where my "fathers and ancestors fought and died." Did it ever occur to you, incidentally, that a number of Americans not of Italian descent, or of partly Italian descent, could say the very same thing -- that their "fathers and ancestors" had "fought and died" for Italy? Are they entitled to have an opinion, especially if they may spend a lot of time in Italy, have studied sympathetically aspects of the culture of Italy (which is the birthright not of those born in Italy, but of all those who study it -- national culture is neither automatically supplied along with a national passport, nor is it automatically forbidden, to those who happen to be citizens of other countries. It is up to the individual; there are plenty of "American citizens" who are completely indifferent to, and ignorant of, American history and literature, and even hostile to its heritage -- in my view, they have far less right to comment on the United States than do sympathetic, and educated foreigners who are not American citizens.

Muslims within Italy have done everything they possibly can to disrupt the political and social and cultural arrangements of that country. They have taken over large swaths of major cities. They have attempted to change, rather than to adapt to, Italian mores, manners, political and social arrangements. Whether plotting to destroy a Bologna fresco (or vandalizing statues in the Piazza del Popolo), or demanding that Oriana Fallaci be tried for "vilipendio" under a Fascist-era law punishing "reati d'opinione" though Adel Smith, the Muslim who brought the suit, had published a book calling on Muslims to kill her (that is not "vilipendio" but something else?), or demanding that crucifixes be removed everywhere, or making threats against those who publish something like the truth about Islam, such as the journalist Magdi Allam who for the past two years has had to be escorted everywhere by 4-5 armed guards.

The suggestion that because some C.I.A. agents kidnapped someone who was not an Italian, either native-born or naturalized, but rather an imam who was a citizen of Egypt, temporarily residing in Italy as the leader of a mosque where he routinely whipped up Muslims to join the Jihad in Iraq and elsewhere, and who was, in any case, under joint investigation by the c.I.A. and the Italian security services.

At some point, the C.I.A. agents decided they could not afford to wait for the joint investigation to come up with something. Perhaps they were worried about the threat of an imminent attack. Perhaps they were given a false warning, by supposedly "good Muslims" working with them, who wanted them to engage in rendition to Egypt so as to make Egypt seem as f it was important, indeed vital, to the C.I.A. because of its rougher methods of interrogation. At this point the calculation of the C.I.A. agents is not known. They do not sound particularly wonderful -- and the fact that between the nine of them, in a very short time they ran up a bill of $144,000 at the most expensive hotels in Italy, and that after the seizure and rendition, a few stayed on to enjoy further luxuries at similar hotels in Venice and Florence, does not not inspire confidence in them.

But that is one matter. And just as one can deplore the acts of the American airman whose recklessness, it appears, resulted in the deaths of innocent Italians, one may or may not find this act to have had aspects that deserve criticism. But to the general proposition, that a friendly country, an ally against the Jihad, should be prevented, or punished, for seizing the Muslim national of a Muslim state, and sending him back to that state, because of fears of impending attacks and the belief that, if properly interrogated, the person seized would reveal life-saving information, does not seem outrageous, or wrong, and it should not only be forgiven by the Italians, but I would expect any American government to turn a blind eye should Italian agents do the same, in seizing a non-American citizen, a Muslim citizen of another state, and sending him for interrogation there.

There are rules that are justified by wartime conditions, as Abraham Lincoln, who suspended habeas corpeus, carefully noted.

It is inaccurate to describe the American air force pilot in the previous incident, undoubtedly guilty of gross negligence, as one who "killed civilians for fun." That is a phrase worthy of Ward Churchill, or those who like to compare the conditions at Guantanamo Bay with a Nazi concentration camp or Soviet labor camp. It surprises, it disturbs, it calls into question all sorts of things.

To further suggest that these incidents may well lead to Italy being forced to regard the United States, an ally in World War I, an ally (because fighting Mussolini, and Hitler) in World War II, an ally during the Cold War, an ally ever since, in a thousand ways, a country many of whose citizens feel great affection and appreciation for something they call "Italy" and that goes far beyond the human link established by those millions of Italian immigrants who came to the United States, as an enemy equal, in its supposed malevolence and menace, to Islam, is bizarre.

Let me end by quoting an Italian (presumably, this will satisfy any "only native Italians can comment on anything having to do with Italy" chauvinists among us):

"Germano Dottori, a political analyst at the Center for Strategic Studies in Rome, said it is not unusual for intelligence agencies to have squabbles with allied countries but that he could not recall prosecutors directly involved in investigating or apprehending agents involved.

"At some point the Americans will begin to think they can't trust the Italians," Dottori said.

I like Dottori. He thinks clearly, just like his fellow Italians Montanelli, Franco Modigliani, Ida Magris, Ernesto Galli della Loggia, and a good many others who, I suspect, would echo Dottori's sentiments. And there are many others. There is not one "Italian" view that we are required to obey, but many. Evidencde, logic, common sense, a weighing of the degree of menace,the history of alliances, the nature of bureaucracies, of threats and the imminence of disasters, both real and imaginary -- all of these play a part. And should.

Hugh. First, a few corrections. The bomb at Bologna was not put there by the Red Brigades, who did not go for civilian massacres but for targeted killings. It was put there by the CIA'S little friends, the Fascist terrorists, who do not mind how many fellow Italians they kill (a point they have in common with certain parts of the American military). Second, Toni Negri never killed anyone. Yes, he justified violence, which under Italian law is a crime ("apologia di reato"), but all the attempts to link him to Red Brigades or other terrorist organizations failed miserably. He was nothing more than another loose-mouthed academic, praising the violence it would never occur to him to commit.

Second, you said nothing about Ustica, a crime known to every Italian citizen.

Third, to have been allies sixty years ago does not mean that you are allowed to (literally) take liberties now. As the Greek philosopher said, men ought to fight for the laws of their nation (polis, city-state) as if they were its walls. If you are not fighting for your laws, what are you fighting for? Ultimately, the assertion of power without law is only the assertion of power; and that can never be a friendly act. Wars have been fought over lesser outrages than this.

You badly underestimate the mood in Italy right now. I tell you that Italy could walk out of NATO tomorrow - this is a warning, not a threat. The American military bases could be closed, and the treaty denounced in Parliament, at any time. Be clear on this: Berlusconi is dead and buried. He will lose the next election. Then you will have to deal with a Prodi government, whose majority will include the Greens and the two Communist parties. Every piece of nonsense of this kind is worth an extra percentage point to the anti-American forces. In order to catch this one individual, you risk the alliance of the world's sixth largest economy. Boy, that is strategic thinking. That is the way to fight a war. (But then, that is roughly how you lot behaved to De Gaulle during WWII - with the result of breaking for ever an alliance with France that had lasted almost two centuries.) How on Earth did you lot ever get to be a great power?

Paolo:

...a Prodi government of commies and greens... buona notte Italia!

As a fiery Catholic, how would you feel if a hit squad would take out the Paleys who ransacked the Nativity Church in Bethlehem?

I am not a Christian, but I don't think you'd have any qualms about that.

Or are you all merciful and oft forgiving like Allah?

Paolo:

...a Prodi government of commies and greens... buona notte Italia!

As a fiery Catholic, how would you feel if a hit squad would take out the Paleys who ransacked the Nativity Church in Bethlehem?

I am not a Christian, but I don't think you'd have any qualms about that.

Or are you all merciful and oft forgiving like Allah?

Terminator: leave the hard questions to Hugh, who knows how to ask them. You do not seem to have understood anything of what went on here.
The Bethlehem siege was carried out by the legal authority of the place - the Israeli state - against a bunch of proven terrorists, who would, if caught, been tried in Israeli courts and probably spent a lot of time in Israeli jails. Which does not have anything to do with the abduction of an Egyptian citizen, charged with no crime, from the soil of an independent country, not in order to subject him to any kind of judicial process, but to force him back, without the consent of said independent country, to Egypt. This is crime, and as crime it must be treated. Period.

Incidentally, Berlusconi is finished, and will certainly lose the next elections, not because of anything to do or not to do with foreign policy, but because he has comprehensively failed to manage the Italian economy, and has left the universal impression of regarding the law as something to be manipulated for his private interest. A majority of the Italian population, on both sides of the divide, is still pro-Western and anti-Muslim. More than half the Prodi coalition is made of responsible, pro-American, moderate democrats. The point is therefore not to strengthen the radicals, which any more shit like the Callipari whitewash (which was a slap in Berlusconi's own face) certainly will do. A Prodi government with a strong Catholic and Democratic Left majority would be one thing; one with a large Communist and Green representation, quite another. Now if you want to be macho morons and spit in the face of Italian law, do; and do not be surprised if you find Italy turning away from you.

"You badly underestimate the mood in Italy right now. I tell you that Italy could walk out of NATO tomorrow - this is a warning, not a threat. The American military bases could be closed, and the treaty denounced in Parliament, at any time. "

That's fine. I don't see any great benefit from Italy for the US. Zero support for Iraq, zero support against terror. Some terrorists were plotting a cyanide gas attack on the Embassy in Rome and they got something like 4 years in jail. What complete utter BS. Back-stabbing, back-biting "friends" if you ask me.

"(But then, that is roughly how you lot behaved to De Gaulle during WWII - with the result of breaking for ever an alliance with France that had lasted almost two centuries.)"

2 centuries? A French academic details 2 centuries of unrelenting demonization of the US in France. As for De Gaulle, he even hinted his nuclear weapons were intended for BOTH the US and USSR. Some "friend".
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2102-1587324,00.html

" How on Earth did you lot ever get to be a great power?"

You a**holes destroyed yourselves, we were the only thing left standing. And the reason you reduced europe to ruins was because of this same style of Great Powers geopolitics, ie. competition based on nationalist pride. The same type which is now villainizing the US. You idiots never learn.