"Muslims and violence," a refreshingly honest letter, apparently from two Muslims, in The Guardian, with thanks to John, who notes that "this sort of thing used not to get into the 'Guardian,' but there have been several such recently."
For Muslim religious leaders to condemn the London bombings is commendable. But to support this by saying Islam is unequivocally a religion of peace is disingenuous (Comment, July 22). The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) himself, while at times preaching tolerance, also ordered the murder of all the men of a belligerent Jewish tribe and the enslavement of all its women and children, following the seizure of Medina - irrespective of whether they were combatants or not. In similar manner, many Muslim leaders justify the killing of Israeli civilians by Muslim suicide bombers and some also justify the terror on the tube because of the UK's role in the invasion of Iraq.Over and above this all-pervasive contradictory attitude within Islam are Islamic laws which are even more straightforwardly barbaric on a host of topics, such as holding a women's testimony in a court of law to be worth less than a man's, or the mandatory death penalty for practising homosexuals and Muslims whose conscience tells them to leave Islam (apostates).
Some Muslims choose to turn a blind eye to the uncomfortable words that stare them in the face. But as people who (along with hundreds of others) narrowly escaped death on the underground, we strongly feel that this conspiracy of silence about the very real violence in religious texts needs to be broken.
Raza Griffiths
Shahzad Ahmed
Address supplied
Whoa!
Where's Koran Armstrong to refute these Muslim's for distorting true Islam, which is all about peace and loving one's neighbor. Get Ms. Armstrong on the phone, now! I wanna hear her rebuttal.
Oppas: “I believe that you understand how the entire army of Spain cannot resist the force of the Muslims. How then can you resist on this mountain? Listen to my advice. Abandon your efforts and you will enjoy many benefits from the Muslims.”
Pelayo: “Have you not read in Sacred Scripture that the Church of the Lord is like the mustard seed, which, small as it is, grows more than any other through the mercy of God?”
Oppas: “Truly, so it is written.”
Pelayo: “Our hope is in Christ. This little mountain will be the salvation of Spain and of its people. The mercy of Christ will free us from the Muslims.”
- From the “Cronica de Alfonso”, written in the 9th century, the story of Pelayo, who began the war for the reconquest of Spain.
a drop? the first of a growing trickle?
or just an errant raindrop that falls in the desert, doomed to dry up in the blistering sun, never having the chance to nourish life?
you figure the odds.
This seems to be a small step in the right direction. At least two things are out in the open, the death penalty for apostasy and slavery as part of Islam.
Let's hope some of the readers might dwell on these facts.
Russell, are you going to spam that post on every thread, or will you come up with something original once?
Hi Rick,
I'll post something new when there's evidence that the original message has sunk in.
The letter writers just might be apostates.
Off Topic:
Due to a variety of reasons it's been a while since I posted but I was so incensed by the comments made by the chairman of an organisation with the temerity to call itself the Islamic Human Rights Commission on the shooting of the man at Stockwell that I just had to respond.
This is the letter that I sent to him and to a few newspapers. I'm waiting with bated breath for this answer... :-)
Greetings from London
PJS
The Chairman
Islamic Human Rights Commission
Dear sir
Three Important Questions for the IHRC
After hearing your passionate condemnation of the Metropolitan Police on BBC London this morning, I decided to have a look at your website (www.ihrc.org). After studying it I must say that I am a bit confused about the name of your organization "The Islamic Human Rights Commission". I came away with the distinct impression that the IHRC is concerned with the rights of Muslims seemingly to the exclusion of those of the rest of humanity.
Since my conclusion could be based on a misunderstanding I would be interested in your answers to the following three questions:
* More than 50 members of the human race were killed on 7/7. Your reaction to this is limited to a one sentence condemnation followed by several paragraphs of advice to Muslims, should they be harassed as a result of the bombings. I could find no word of condolence to the families of the victims and you gave no indication about the motivation for your (very brief) condemnation. Are we to assume from your use of space that the rights of Muslims not to be on the receiving end of rude remarks or gestures weigh heavier on the minds of the IHRC than the right of innocent commuters not to be blown to smithereens?
* I saw on your site that you provide a web form where Muslims can report instances of discrimination or harassment. Since no one in our society should have to put up with being dealt with in an undignified manner this initiative should be commended. However I failed to find any web form where members of the Muslim community can report criminal activity of the kind that led to the vicious deaths of so many people on 7/7. Am I to assume that, because the vast majority of the victims of these activities are not Muslims, the violation of their most basic human right (i.e. the right to life) is simply not a priority for the IHRC?
* You prominently display your British Muslims’ Expectations of the Government (BMEG) project on you site. I am a recent immigrant to the UK who earlier this year received British citizenship after swearing an oath of loyalty at a citizenship ceremony. After the ceremony I was handed a letter from the Home Secretary reminding me that citizenship comes with both rights and responsibilities. Does the fact that I could not find an equivalent British Muslims' Responsibilities towards Society project reflect a belief that the Muslim community is absolved of these responsibilities? (Under the current circumstances relevant responsibilities include loyalty, efforts at integration and reporting subversive activities)
I suspect that you will dismiss my three questions as just another example of the ‘Islamophobia’ that you are trying to battle. Please be assured however that I am asking them in good faith. In answering them you may also want to explain why I as a non-Muslim should not have a justified fear (not a phobia) of an ideology that divides the world between the ‘world of Islam’ and the ‘world of the sword’’; that prohibits it’s adherents to befriend even those who are closest in faith to them (Qur’an 5:51); and that enjoins them to fight unbelievers until they feel themselves subdued (Qur’an 9:29).
I challenge you to publish my letter (which will also be sent to a variety of media outlets), and your response, on your website.
Yours truly,
PJS
24/07/2005
Ps. I would have liked to sign my name but after a member of the Muslim community (after what I thought had been good natured debate over the Internet) threatened to track me down and slit my throat I tend to be a bit more careful. (I would have liked to report the incident to the IHRC but again could not find the relevant form).
Apostates, or possibly "Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only" Muslims. For how could one see the truth, as they do, and remain Muslims? In this respect, they are akin to the Italian journalist (and native of Egypt) Magdi Allam, who sees through Islam, more or less, but continues to call himself a Muslim.
Well, if a Muslim is someone who does not accept, at all the Jihad verses in the Qur'an, does ot accept a good many of the "authentic" Hadith in the collections of al-Bukhari and Muslim, deplores all the bloodthirsty bits in the Sira -- is that person a Muslim?
If someone says he is a "Christian" but he does not believe that Jesus was the Son of God, does not believe that Mary was His mother, does not believe that Jesus existed, does not even believe in God -- is that person a "Christian"?
To the two questions in the two paragraphs above, one would have to answer: No, and No.
Wow, I sure love it when muslims tell the truth.
"If someone says he is a "Christian" but he does not believe that Jesus was the Son of God, does not believe that Mary was His mother, does not believe that Jesus existed, does not even believe in God -- is that person a "Christian"?"
Hugh, that person would probably be called "Anglican clergy." :-)
acolyte1973's sarcastic retort actually is based on a serious and significant civilizational fact that highlights the difference between Christianity and Islam: Christianity has evolved and progressed and matured to the point where its dogmatic orthodoxy is strained and reformed and even deformed on its wondrous and disturbing journey of the human being wending his way through the mystery of life with the dignity & respect of freedom of conscience with all the flaws and even sometimes tragedies that entails -- and nobody is blown up or beheaded or burned anymore as a consequence.
Islam, however, remains rigidly literalistic and totalitarian, and as violently resistant to modernity as a black widow spider in a dark corner is to the proddings of a stick from a child out in the sunshine.
I'm not sure these two are apostates. Perhaps they just don't see the implications of criticising the 'perfect man for all time', Mohammed.
If they've grown up in a Western Christian/secular environment they will have seen Christians criticising the Bible, yet remaining Christians. So perhaps they think that they can do the same with Islam. And if enough Muslims do this, then the problems of Islam will diminish.
Irshad Manji readily says that the Koran is not perfect, yet she considers herself to be a Muslim.
Islam-lite (5 pillars, no pillage) is a kind of intellectual dishonesty, but intellectual dishonesty is better than stoning, jihad, and so forth.
o/t
from seattle Times sunday..can't link..
At a recent U.S.-Islamic World Forum in Doha, Qatar..,"..in a conversation with an aide to
muhammad Dahlan (Palestinian Authority civil affairs minister and former security chief of Gaza), Judea Pearl (father of Daniel Pearl)
noted that the aide confessed, "we Palestinians
do not believe in a two state solution, for we
can't agree to the notion of a 'Jewish state.'"
"Judaism is a religion," he added, "and religions don't have states." When Pearl pointed out that
Israeli society is predominately secular, bound by history and it's sense of peoplehood, his
amiable interlocutor replied, "Still, Palestine
is too small for two states."
"Pearl went on to discuss his disappointment with this line of reasoning with an Egyptian scholar renowned for his liberalism. His response was blunter yet. "The Jews should build themselves a Vatican," he said, "a spiritual center somewhere near Jerusalem. But there is no
place for a Jewish state in palestine. The Jews were driven out 2,000 years ago, and that should be final."
Taqqiya and Kitamn is really starting now.
It was to be expected, as we now hear calls for the deportation of clerics and any who espouses hate, or supports such hate. This is the anti-terrorism policy that they fear the most. It was predictable and I did so a week ago.
Let us consider the situation that all muslims at present living in the West, accepted the call to clean their communities of extremism. They even went further and made the changes in their teachings of the koran and the jihad. Such an outcome would no doubt come as a relief to many on this site. But I counter, that all such changes were being done merely to protect the ummah while it grows at ever increasing pace in the West. Once a near majority is achieved, that future generation of muslims will simply revoke any changes and return to the traditions of the koran. They will even praise this generation of muslims for having done what was necessary to protect islam.
Treaty of Hudaibiyya anybody?
Islamic terrorism will grow in direct relation to the size of the ummah. With each terrorist attack, the moderates will come forth, with this and that demand for muslims. They operate in concert, the Jihadis and the moderates, each to advance islam in a manner that is best suited. No formal understanding is required - it is understood, that as the Jihadis have made the ultimate sacrifice, the living "moderates" must make full use of that sacrifice.
As for The Guardian - it is now discovering a complete disjoint with the views of its own readership. This is just a little damage limitation. For instance, one of their main commentators, Jasmina Alibhai Brown (yes the same one, who was on that notorious BBC Question Time program just after 9/11), has made the usual Islam is the RoP sounds in the Guardian, and in her many appearances on the BBC. A few days ago, she was quoted as saying that "islam has some deficiencies in its treatment of women".
JW/DW posters - be prepared for an avalanche of Taqqiya and Kitman. Muslim leaders will now do or say anything to safeguard their investment, ie the sizable ummah that has been built up in the West.
So far the Bloggers main task was to educate the population about the Islam and its founding texts. This has been quite succesful. Now the real battle starts, when Taqqiya and Kitman will really come into play. This will even go as far, depending on the Western nation, as abrogating certain verses in the koran, to suit the sensibility of that particular Western audience. The LLL will applaud and say that islam is reforming. Pres. Bush and PM Blair will claim that they have been instrumental in the Reformation of Islam, but the real task has to be done genuine moderate muslims etc etc.
Take care.
Boycott The Guardian. Do not read it. Do not advertise it. Do not place personal ads in it. Let Alan Rusbridger (is he still the editor?) and Co. tighten their belts, ever tighter. Buy The Telegraph. Carry it, flaunt it, open it with a flourish in cafes and restaurants. Eventually if enough people do this, things will begin to change. Make disparaging remarks about The Guardian and The Independent. Name the handful of people at both papers who are tolerable -- if there are any left. And in conversation show that you cannot understand the great failure to recognize Fascism when it is staring everyone in the face. Use such words as "taqiyya" and "kitman" and refer to Bat Ye'or, and Robert Spencer, and Ibn Warraq. Lead your friends into the bright sunlit uplands of..... well, you know.
People are very impressionable. Make an impression.
DP111
Yasmin Alibhai Brown writes for the Independent not the Guardian. Both immoral, apologists-for- Jihad newspapers.
Notice the named signatories. Should i need to sign myself Abu Ali or such to have such a letter printed.
The Guardiananista is POISON and soon will have to sustain itself on Saudi donations as their readers wake up to reality.
Imagine what the likes of susanne rosenberg,Polly toynbee (grand daughter of the infamous jew hater), robert fisk wuold have penned in that rag, if the Israeli police had shot dead an innocent foreigner in the manner of the British police a few days ago.
Would the British minister Straw' who denies the rights of isralis to build a fence to protect themselves agianst Islamic murderers, have issued a statement to the effect that "britain cannot condone this type of behaviour
And Ken livingstone who now turns about 180 degrees and supports shoot to kill policies in London. Who in the guardian would be calling for his indictment for war crimes at the Hague?
Ken Livingstone who shed tears for the dead, knowing full well that it is his lunatic multiculturist policies that have led to the slaughter.
And after all. it is the Israelis that do not shoot their captured Suicide bombers, but treat them in Hospitals and eventually return them in exchange for the Body parts of butchered israeli soldiers. But No one at the Guardian would give them the slightest credit for such humanitarian actions.
Hugh
you are absolutely right.
And i would add do not watch or listen to any news commentary (news per se no longer exists there)at the BBC BBC either.
PJS (and others), for more on the Islamic Human Rights Commission, read this article, "A Front For Jihad," from Front Page Magazine. Robert Spencer linked to it when it appeared.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15138
" " But I counter, that all such changes were being done merely to protect the ummah while it grows at ever increasing pace in the West. Once a near majority is achieved, that future generation of muslims will simply revoke any changes and return to the traditions of the koran." "
DP111- you are SO right.
The Guardian is at the top of my favorite terror related links -- it is a wonderful platform for absurdist self-loathing journalism... How embarrassing it must be for them to see their cherished there-is-no-objective-truth-all-things-are-equal-except-it's-all-the-fault-of-the-white-capitalist-pigs fantasy land falling down around their glib post-modernist heads! The defeat of Islamic fascism must also entail the ruthless crushing of their evil twin of pseudo-liberal fascism, which "the Nation" and "the Guardian" epitomize... It will be a great day when these two horrid scourges are flushed into the septic tank of corruption where they belong...
Death to Socialism
Death to Communism
Death to Islamism
Death to Utopianism
The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) himself, while at times preaching tolerance, also ordered the murder of all the men of a belligerent Jewish tribe and the enslavement of all its women and children, following the seizure of Medina - irrespective of whether they were combatants or not.
This is why I don't understand Muslims. In one breath, the writers say Muhammed, peace by upon him, and then regale us with stories of atrocities that he was responsible for. How do you detach yourself from reality so completely that you can call for peace upon someone like that murderous psychopath?
Adolph Hitler (Peace be upon Him) himself, while at times preaching tolerance, also ordered the extermination of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals ...
Oh, and Pol Pot (Peace be upon Him) ...
I always thought most Muslims just didn't have a clue what their "Prophet" was really about, that they were fed fairy tales of his life. You could excuse them for being ignorant then. But if they do know what he got up to, and approve of it, then we're dealing with over a billion dangerously sick people.
Vikram Dodd
Tuesday July 26, 2005
The Guardian
Hundreds of thousands of Muslims have thought about leaving Britain after the London bombings, according to a new Guardian/ICM poll.
Please realise i am not taking bets on this
Police have recorded more than 1,200 suspected Islamophobic incidents across the country ranging from verbal abuse to one murder in the past three weeks. The poll suggests the headline figure is a large underestimate.
Please supply details of such abuse
One in five polled said Muslim communities had integrated with society too much already, while 40% said more was needed and a third said the level was about right.More than half wanted foreign Muslim clerics barred or thrown out of Britain, but a very sizeable minority, 38%, opposed that.
Oh, Chevalier: "Hundreds of thousands of Mohammedans 'thought about' leaving the UK", wouldn't that be nice?
I'm afraid you'll be looking at dramatic increases of Mohammedans to the UK rather than this piece of thrash from some deliberately stupid rag.
yeah, they're just queueing up in their droves to leave the UK - NOT! Personally, I'd like to emigrate to the moon where there aren't any Islamists (hopefully.)
The Guardianistan has had its fingers burnt badly by their little dalliance with dangerous religious sects as had George Galloway threatened with death as an apostate at a recent meeting in London where he was heckled by the very same extremists that Aslam the Guardian trainee belongs to.
The sentence would be closer to the truth if it read: "Hundreds of thousands of Muslims have thought about leaving Britain in far worse shape than they found it... And tens of thousandss are bent on destroying it altogether..."