BBC inflating backlash reports

testing testing

And there is more. In the aftermath of the attack the MCB claimed that a deluge of hate mail had poured in from across Britain, implying that the British had en masse spontaneously posted 30,000 threatening e-mails to them. Not true. Turns out to have come from a single source, probably a BNP supporter.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tonyparsons/

So the British as ever have made a measured response and have not attacked Muslims indiscriminately, much to the dissapointment of some people on the left who wish they would, and some within Muslim establishment circles who would have much moral gain to make from this, as well as diverting attention from the true source of terror and violence.

++++

Having said this, it is important that Neo-Nazis do not get away with making capital and letting the side down. The stupid dunderheads have apparently attacked a Sikh or Hindu temple.

But the point remains, there has been no backlash, and Britain remains a civilised society, tolerant and decent and does not descend to the depths of indiscriminate violence as propounded in some ideologies.

Well, yes, Zico, Great. And I'm with you every time. But you can bet your life that a good many posters on this site - perhaps the majority - will interpret British stability as dhimmitude and weak-kneedness and Socialism (there are dolts on this site who have called Chirac's France socialst) and insist on their obsession with expelling every Muslim from Europe. I have got tired of arguing with these fools; now I just read the entries and put in the occasional observation. Like this one.

is this mike on? cool.

welcome back my friends, to the show that never ends.

anyway, time to get back to erudite discussions,
here at DW, amongst the world's brightest and bravest thinkers.

OT(sort of)does anyone know if the comment problems were hacker induced or a innocent glitch? if it was mentioned, i was at work and can't find anything on it.

part of the media is a dupe of the islamofascist expansionistas, other organizations are active and willing participants. some, bent on their own agendas, find the islamo's, or at least the news they generate, a useful partner. while they couch the news and slant stories, or even alter the reality of news by editing out critical data, they congratulate themselves on their brave struggle against western evil and the press' holy duty of brutal self-criticism of the west, an action notably absent of any application in the other's direction.
the double standards in play would make an islamic propagandist proud.

i find it amazing that even after all these centuries; with all the jihadist history of the past 1400 years; with all the weekly, daily, even hourly outrages and the attendant bald-faced denials; with all the smug insistance that all that is non-muslim is doomed to death or servitude; the west, from top to bottom with the exception of a few who "get it", still doesn't realize that:

THE EMPEROR ISN'T WEARING ANY CLOTHES

Whew! I hope the holy e-mail folder wasn't desecrated.

beagle;

could it have been flushed virtually?

Ah, an Emerson Lake and Palmer fan.
We're so glad you could attend, step inside, step inside.

Not only do we have world's brightest and bravest thinkers we have some of the best music.

Zico, you ain't 'alf clever. When I posted a link to a Mirror article over the weekend I ended up with a four line address that was almost as long as the article. And it's a good article. Tony Parson's started life as a music reporter but has matured to speak quite a lot of common sense although I don't always agree with him. The young woman he speaks of, Shahara Akther Islam, attended the East London mosque in Whitechapel which featured in the DBC article. One anonymous letter does not a backlash make.

That is one of the oldest mosques in the country, founded in 1941, I believe for seamen from India (the Regents Park mosque may be slightly older, but was also founded during the reign of King George VI). A very respected foundation and as such now well placed to mount an Islamic version of the Peace People of Northern Ireland. But will they? Or will the attitude continue to be that of Sheikh Abdul Mohsen Al-Obaikan, a senior Saudi scholar who said:-

“Any Muslim having information leading to the perpetrators is urged to pass it on to the British authorities. By doing so, we not only help protect innocent Muslims from random arrests and charges but also save them from being labeled as terrorists,”

Not exactly the right spirit, methinks.

Granny

I believe the East London Mosque was recently re-opened by the grand Imam of Mecca, a man who is on the record as stating that Jews are apes and pigs, the evil of Earth, the hook nosed drinkers of Muslim childrens blood etc etc

Apparently, when the moderate leader of the mosque is questioned about this, he reacts with some displeasure. Strange that.

It's certainly on much bigger premises now. When I was a child you would have hardly noticed that it was there. Now it is quite noticable. Ahem!

This is not the obvious view. This is the telling view.

http://www.photopolis.co.uk/2buildingsnf/mosquel.jpg

There's a new product out, guaranteed to get rid of dhimmis:

As Seen on Al Jazeera

A good washday laugh for a Monday morning.

We've been warned. For the past 2,000 years.

http://www.foundingforefathers.com/

Actually I sailed a bit close to the wind with one of my posts, but I really hope that there are no attacks on Muslims, we are better than that, part of me is sad at the attacks on mosques especially ones with a history and another part thinks what a pity with sarcasm...

I understand that Blair has given the go ahead to faith schools paid for by the state, that is a sad step, what is he on. The best thing we can do is maintain a strong secular approach to schooling like France. This type of action by our leaders along with accepting the term Islamophobia is frankly stupid, though I am in two minds on this religious hate law as it can be used against Islam.

I think the only solution is to enable people to make a choice and prevent a system that locks the people in. When you look at Islam and the schools and mosques you see a whole system designed to keep the people within the religion.

Personally I would deport or remove the citizenship of the extreme Muslims, deporting all Muslims in Europe is not an option.

I think I am one of those dolts who called Chirac a socialist, but as far as I can work out the majority of French politicians are to the left of Blair and that includes people like Chirac. ;-)

Actually I sailed a bit close to the wind with one of my posts, but I really hope that there are no attacks on Muslims, we are better than that, part of me is sad at the attacks on mosques especially ones with a history and another part thinks what a pity with sarcasm...

I understand that Blair has given the go ahead to faith schools paid for by the state, that is a sad step, what is he on. The best thing we can do is maintain a strong secular approach to schooling like France. This type of action by our leaders along with accepting the term Islamophobia is frankly stupid, though I am in two minds on this religious hate law as it can be used against Islam.

I think the only solution is to enable people to make a choice and prevent a system that locks the people in. When you look at Islam and the schools and mosques you see a whole system designed to keep the people within the religion.

Personally I would deport or remove the citizenship of the extreme Muslims, deporting all Muslims in Europe is not an option.

I think I am one of those dolts who called Chirac a socialist, but as far as I can work out the majority of French politicians are to the left of Blair and that includes people like Chirac. ;-)

ELP is GREAT!

Are there any King Crimson fans in the forum?

Did you know that Greg Lake was IN King Crimson? He was their first singer/bass player. Actually, he may have only sung. I don't have "In The Court" here at my desk, but I do have "Wake of Poseidon" and the credits say that Lake sang and Peter Giles played bass.

Later in KC, Jeff Wetton (later of UK and Asia) played bass and sang.

A funny trivia: when King Crimson first broke up, Peter Gabriel left Genesis around the same time. Robert Fripp went on tour with Peter as his guitarist, and Bill Bruford went on tour with Genesis, as their drummer (so Phil Collins could focus on singing.)

ELP is GREAT!

Are there any King Crimson fans in the forum?

Did you know that Greg Lake was IN King Crimson? He was their first singer/bass player. Actually, he may have only sung. I don't have "In The Court" here at my desk, but I do have "Wake of Poseidon" and the credits say that Lake sang and Peter Giles played bass.

Later in KC, Jeff Wetton (later of UK and Asia) played bass and sang.

A funny trivia: when King Crimson first broke up, Peter Gabriel left Genesis around the same time. Robert Fripp went on tour with Peter as his guitarist, and Bill Bruford went on tour with Genesis, as their drummer (so Phil Collins could focus on singing.)

wait a minute... the first time I posted this, I received an error message that said the transmission had failed and the post didn't go through. Sorry about the double.

Same happened to me, it was a 500 error I think.

Do not for a single second believe that the BBC
are anything but propagandists. I have watched
in dismay before 9/11 them actively proselytizing Islam to the British nation, with their Understanding Islam shows, hours of this garbage on a nightly basis for months on end. It took Bin Laden to bring about a scheduling change. Senior BBC staff members have actively embraced the Islamic faith and are not
shy about letting the whole world know which side
they are routing for in the war on terror, or as they say “ The So Called War On Terror ”. They are a law unto themselves and will actively hide the truth from the public. The BBC now look upon Al Jazeera as the bastion of truth, and they will compete with their Islamic cousins to deceive all into believing that the Americans are solely responsible for the global jihad.
Rewriting history is their forte, especially the history of the Crusades. That is why I believe that the present work undertaken by Jihad Watch creator Robert Spencer is of vast importance. The BBC will continue along the path of dhimmitude, unfortunately many in Britain will follow.

Check it out Granny and the other Brits here:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/csm/20050711/ts_csm/oradical_1

"England doesn't belong to the English people. . .it belongs to {the Muslim} God."

They're in your country to bring you "civilization." Isn't that lovely! Female genital mutilation, polygamy, honor killings, apostate killings, sharia law, second-class citizenship for Native Brits -- wow! lucky you! you're getting "civilization" lessons from the most backward, violent and poverty-stricken "culture" on earth.

Without a doubt that there is a left wing tilt to the BBC, which also includes a fundemental dislike of Israel and a totally unbalanced reporting of the conflict with the PA and others, however when it comes to news I tend to go there because I understand its bias, its been like this since I was knee high to a grasshopper. Its what I call a first world guilt factor.

If you ask the Brits on this forum, I guess most will say the same.

I am actually quite impressed with the questions being asked by the public in the UK about the reasons for this attack and I can see people asking the right questions and getting the right answers, there is a fundemental unease among ordinary Brits over Islam, which this attack is going to further develop, unease does not however equate to acts of random violence.

We have courts, police and security services to deal with wrong doers, not a baying rabid mob.

Certain actions like allowing Muslim faith schools and not controlling the literature and what is said in the mosques is a fatal mistake, but I happen to think that the religious hate law is aimed at hate sprouting imams.

I do however have an unease that people like Blair seem to equate Islam with his own faith, which is definately not the case.

I hate Islam as a facist cult, but that does not mean I hate Muslims, I pity them for following such a religion and I will still be respectful and courteous to them as people unless given a reason on an individual basis not to.

Our leaders and elite seem to misunderstand or have no clear strategy (perhaps I am missing something) on how to deal with Islam and are guilty of making quite major mistakes. These people are failing their people.

Multiculturism is OK, as long as it is with a culture that also embraces multi-culturism and that is the problem with Islam, it definately does not.

I look at the way Hindu's and others have merged into the UK and a general population that is only racist in an un-knowing way. I am proud of that part of my nations approach, even though its leaving us wide open to the intolerent.

Without a doubt I would agree that it was best that we had not allowed these millions of Muslims to enter our contries, but as a fair number of them are decent people I think we have to find a solution that enables us to stick within our core values.

I personally think that citizenship in Europe has become cheap and under-valued, that would be a start in my view.

Without a doubt that there is a left wing tilt to the BBC, which also includes a fundemental dislike of Israel and a totally unbalanced reporting of the conflict with the PA and others, however when it comes to news I tend to go there because I understand its bias, its been like this since I was knee high to a grasshopper. Its what I call a first world guilt factor.

If you ask the Brits on this forum, I guess most will say the same.

I am actually quite impressed with the questions being asked by the public in the UK about the reasons for this attack and I can see people asking the right questions and getting the right answers, there is a fundemental unease among ordinary Brits over Islam, which this attack is going to further develop, unease does not however equate to acts of random violence.

We have courts, police and security services to deal with wrong doers, not a baying rabid mob.

Certain actions like allowing Muslim faith schools and not controlling the literature and what is said in the mosques is a fatal mistake, but I happen to think that the religious hate law is aimed at hate sprouting imams.

I do however have an unease that people like Blair seem to equate Islam with his own faith, which is definately not the case.

I hate Islam as a facist cult, but that does not mean I hate Muslims, I pity them for following such a religion and I will still be respectful and courteous to them as people unless given a reason on an individual basis not to.

Our leaders and elite seem to misunderstand or have no clear strategy (perhaps I am missing something) on how to deal with Islam and are guilty of making quite major mistakes. These people are failing their people.

Multiculturism is OK, as long as it is with a culture that also embraces multi-culturism and that is the problem with Islam, it definately does not.

I look at the way Hindu's and others have merged into the UK and a general population that is only racist in an un-knowing way. I am proud of that part of my nations approach, even though its leaving us wide open to the intolerent.

Without a doubt I would agree that it was best that we had not allowed these millions of Muslims to enter our contries, but as a fair number of them are decent people I think we have to find a solution that enables us to stick within our core values.

I personally think that citizenship in Europe has become cheap and under-valued, that would be a start in my view.

"have to find a solution that enables us to stick within our core values."
-- from a posting above

What do you think of the Czech Republic? Do you like it? What do you think by and large of the people in the Czech Republic? Jaroslav Seifert, Vaclav Havel, the Olga to whom he wrote letters, General Svoboda, Dubcek, Pavel Kohut -- how do they strike you? Do they strike you as awful people, people who have betrayed the "core values" of Western civilization?

I don't think so. I think you would agree that the Czech Republic is among the most civilized places in the world, has assumed again the position it had before the Red Army, and the trial of Rudolph Slansky, and the others.

And what about Benes, and Tomas Masaryk (son of the first Tomas Masaryk who helped found modern Czechoslovakia), the same Masaryk pushed out of a window by NKVD agents in the second (or, actually, third) Defenestration of Prague, in 1948? What do you think of Benes and Masaryk, and of the Benes Decree of 1946, when 3 million ethnic Germans (and a few Hungarians as well) were expelled from Czechoslovakia. And why was this done? Well, World War II had shown that a great many of those Sudeten Germans had identified with, had supported, the Nazis. Not all of them. But some of them. And before the war, the pressure of Henlein, the leader of the "Sudeteners," working on Hitler's orders to deliberately create disturbances which, in turn, would predictably be put down by the Czech police on horseback, led to the Munich Crisis, and the withdrawal of the Czechs from that area, the Sudetenland, that bristled with Czech defenses and armamanets from the Skoda Works. The British and French press was adamant. The Runciman Mission would bring "a comprehensive and lasting peace." It didn't.Nor, as we all know, did Chamberlain bring peace in our time.

The Czechs took note of this. They decided that once and for all they were going to rid themselves of what appeared to them, in 1946, despite the fact that Germany lay in ruins, as a potential future threat. They saw no reason why they should be asked to permanently endure such a threat. They had had their fill of Fifth Columnists, and those Volksdeutche, for so many of whom Hitler had such appeal, and to whom specially favorable treatment was offered by the conquering army of the Third Reich.

Were they wrong? Was Benes, and Masaryk wrong? And what about all those outside of Czechoslovakia who thought what they were doing was perfetly understandable, and perfectly justified -- you know, such people as Winston Churchill, and everyone else in the civilized world?

And what about all the Czechs I mentioned --Seifert, and Kohut, and Dubcek, and General Svoboda and Havel and those in Czechoslovakia today, who would not think of apologizing for the expulsion of 3 million people, whose ancestors had lived in the Sudetenland for hundreds of years (unlike the Muslims who appeared, under the false pretenses of being able to fullly integrate, and be loyal to, various Infidel nation-states, only in the last few decades), and who, unlike Muslims in Infidel lands, did not appear to be a growing menace now that Germany had been so completely defeated?

I don't regard them as having betrayed their "core values." I regard them as having tried, as best they could, after a very unhappy experience, to do what they felt necessary for their own survival, and for surviving in a state not of insecurity and worry, but without such worries. Were those Czechs in 1946, and now, wrong? Or were they right?

My "core values" include surviving in a reasonbly, but not crazily, tolerant and humorful and intelligent society, and to include all those who are not taught to hate me and other Infidels, to wish to spread a belief-system that I regard with horror for what it does to the possibilities of free thought and free expression, and to be free of the necessity, too, of having to constantly worry about how many, among the marginal in my own society, may be attracted to, or inveigled into, this belief-system that turns those with whom it is possible to co-exist into those with whom, in the end, it is not possible.

Does that betray "core values" of the Western world? Let's consult with defectors from Islam, and ask them, from their long experience as Muslims, or at least within the Muslim world, or Muslim societies, whether they think my fears are exaggerated. Let's ask Ali Sina, Walid Shoebat, Nonie Darwish, Ibn Warraq, Azam Kamguian, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and some others. They know the score. They can't be fooled.

What do they think? What do they advise?

Granny,

You may find this site of use for posting lengthy links:

http://tinyurl.com/

Lead story in today's Independent(where else?):

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article298513.ece

Hugh,

Following the second world war borders were withdrawn etc. There were many innocents who lost their homes. I understand it, yes, do I dislike the Czech Republic for it no, as it happened in a number of contries. They did what they thought was right after a terrible war and in difficult circumstances, as you put it.

You said "My "core values" include surviving in a reasonbly, but not crazily, tolerant and humorful and intelligent society, and to include all those who are not taught to hate me and other Infidels, to wish to spread a belief-system that I regard with horror for what it does to the possibilities of free thought and free expression, and to be free of the necessity, too, of having to constantly worry about how many, among the marginal in my own society, may be attracted to, or inveigled into, this belief-system that turns those with whom it is possible to co-exist into those with whom, in the end, it is not possible."

I think that statement alone is the issue for people in the West and should be sent to all our leaders, how can we be tolerant to the intolerant.

And that is our problem, we have developed a system where we are respectful and tolerant to a religion that is intolerant.

So what are we to do?

The first step and you and others have said this is to see if the Muslim population will stand up for the Western values that many of them want to destroy all in the name of Islam.

This article says it all, a Muslim who finally understands the value of living in our society.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20050709-104055-3541r.htm

Problem is, his voice seems to be a lone voice, my feeling is that the Muslims have come to a point where they have to prove to us, the infidels that they are fit to live freely alongside us in our societies.

As you know the Quran and hadiths are full of reasons to be concerned of Islam and that works both ways, it is a reason for Muslims to hate the infidel and it is a reason for us to be very concerned about Islam. It is an ideology that causes conflict from both sides.

The question comes, what do we do?

A number of people come out with.

Deport the lot, bomb Mecca etc.

Because they are angry and frustrated, and I am there with them, I am angry and frustrated. There may come a point that the above scenarios happen.

Ali Sina thinks we should destroy Islam as an ideology, that I think is the only way, but in doing so we reach a tipping point that will result in violence.

My suggestion is this:

Stop the building of any more Mosques in the West
No Muslim faith schools
No prayer breaks
Muslims girls are not allowed to cover their hair at school.
Muslim teachers are not allowed to cover their hair.
A block on Saudi Arabian funds
The removal of all hate literature (with the exception of the Quaran.)
Logging of every imam speach
Any hate speakers to be deported or punished.

From that point we will drive a number of Muslims to the camp of the extremists and that is what we fear it seems, but I think the tipping point is here anyway.

And why should we do the above, because Islam is incompatible with our system of beliefs. The Muslims have to prove to us that they really want the freedoms that we in the West give them, because they have to earn that right and not just expect it as they do now and try to corrupt our freedoms to their value of surrender to Allah.

That would be our first step and if they resort to violence then so be it and they will reap the rewards of their own stupidity, then mass deportations will occur, perhaps internment, civil strife etc.

I understand that we are in a war, the war is declared as a war against terrorism, but should be described at this point as a war against fundementalist Islam, it is down to the Muslims whether it becomes a war against Islam.

Many people are like me, its so difficult to make the move to be intolerant, its because our core values are one of respect for the rights of individuals, which supercedes their beliefs and actions or so it seems. As a result we have drunken louts and thugs terrorising whole populations without any legal restraint, decent people who respond like that special care teacher who threatened some youths with an air pistol ends up with 6 months in jail and loses her job while the youth walks around the street bragging about it. Our system our leaders take the easy way out and the lawful suffer and are punished and the scum and intolerant get away with it.

And perhaps we get to that point like Germany in the 30's, the normal people fed up with the strife look for someone to deal with the problems and we all know where that ends up. That is the problem, but the longer that our spineless leaders leave such things the worse it gets.

I at this point am not willing to take the step of removing the citizenship of Muslims, but it is a step I would be prepared to take if they prove that they are not worthy to live in the West, the jury is out in my opinion.

I am sure that my comments will get printed out as an example of hate speach, but the sad thing is that I as an individual have never been racist, I look at the individual. I have made a distinction here, the ideology of the Muslims is not compatible with our values. Is it wrong to say that, and believe that. If my leaders say that I am in the wrong for that point of view when I have no problems with Hindu's, Sikhs and all the other non-Muslim immigrants in the West then who has the problem who is it that misunderstands the problem?

It is not me.

I saw a programme last night that showed trainee suicide bombers posing in shrouds with their guns. The reason being that Islam forbids suicide, therefore they are not commiting suicide if they are already, albeit symbolically, dead.
So it seems to me that it would not be dishonest for us to redefine Islam as an ideology not a religion. As an ideology like Nazism, facism etc can be dealt with and will not command the respect given to a religion. But do we have enough time to do it?