Blair: "This is a small group of extremists"

My goodness, the Prime Minister and British Muslims have had a 'wake up call'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4678821.stm

Now, he speaks of an 'evil ideology' among the Muslim community that is not 'true Islam'; and, he says, those who would promote resentment of British Muslims are 'the enemy of all of us' because they do what the 'extremists' want them to.

Promoting resentment of individual people is not the issue, Mr. Prime Minister, Islamic beliefs, jihadist ideology are the issues and it is essential to raise these issues to get to the heart of the problem. Does the Muslim Council of Britain renounce Sharia law as an objective? Does the Muslim Council of Britain denounce Sura 9, Sura 4, the hadith, like, for instance, the Sahih Bukhari. Take a look at what is said about jihad and martrydom.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html

If not, then, one must admit, that the Muslim Council of Britain, accepts the main principles that drive the bloody jihad against Britain; read Sura 9 and the hadith and tell us that this isn't so. The difference is that these 'moderates' appear not accept this particular means to achieve the end of Sharia law the elimination of non-belief, and the reversion of true Muslims in the United Kingdom. But, jihad is acceptable, and obliged. Martrydom is not only acceptable when one 'fights in the way of Allah', but it is the surest way to enter paradise. The seeds for violent Jihad exist in Islam as a belief system. These are the driving forces of this so-called 'evil ideology'.

The disagreements between the so-called moderates and the 'extremists' are simply matters of factual interpretation and causation:
the moderates do not believe that this kind of violence is justified given the kind of conflict that exists currently in Britain between non-believers and believers; but a conflict exists nonetheless and always will as long as non-belief exists. The issue is not ideological. The ideology is one: promote and defend Islam, and 'fight in the way of Allah' if you encounter resistence to Islamic values and beliefs, until non-belief in the Infidel lands is conquered.

Please begin reading JihadWatch, Mr. Prime Minister, most folks who read this blog are already quite awake, and, I am afraid, you are just beginning to come out of a deep slumber that will require some cold water, attention to Islam, jihadist ideology, Islamic history, and, hopefully, nothing more than a good slap in the face.

And, may I suggest a double shot of expresso.

I guess we can rule out a Churchhill era response to the WOT. It seems that the government of Britain is headed into full dhimmitude. I will mourn their passing greatly.

"...because he refuses to acknowledge that the ideology that fuels suicide bombing could possibly be taught in British mosques".

I don't see how this can be true. Surely these Western leaders behind closed doors see Islam for what is true is.

Why do you think the Western leaders are so hell bent on saving face with this so-called religion? Why is it so easy for the "common man" to see it for what it really is?

If you know please tell me, I refuse to belive that they really believe what they're saying.

Actually, Mr.Spencer, I never could see any evidence that Al-Mohajroun was anything like a very large group over here. They always behaved like your standard-issue fringe loonies, placing little stickers on traffic light poles and so on. The claim that they were "Britain's largest Muslim group" sounds to me remarkably like the Danish starlet Trine Michelsen's claim that she had a fan club with 20,000 members. Try and Google her, and see whether any fan club turns up. Methinks a New Jerk Dimes reporter hath been sold a bridge at some point.

Look: Blair is a liar. He lies to everyone, beginning with himself. Until you have got that right, you do not understand him. He is mendacious above and beyond the par for politicians. If he says that only a minority of Muslims have perverted Islam, it is a sure sign that he does not believe it.

Heavens to Betsy! Let's not hurt any muslim's feelings! A lot of British citizens have been blown apart, but what's more important?
/I hope you know that is sarcasm

One more odd thought. The proposal that Britain should "talk to other nations on how to mobilize the 'moderate and true voice of Islam'" is hilarious. Imagine the reception of this proposal in Muslim nations.

So, a British diplomat, educated at Oxford, a religious sceptic, with a smattering of education in 'middle east cultures' walks into the office of the Ayatollah Sistani to talk about this 'mobilization'. And, hung on the door, is the Ayatollah's list of 'things najis' (unclean). Unfortunately, the diplomat, a Kafir, happens to be on it. And a good bath won't solve the problem, unfortunately. No hand shaking, no touching, and very little talking.

Such a cooperative, powerful, unstoppable mobilization of forces against 'bad', 'false' Islam the world has never known.

Paolo:

I've always maintained that our politicians are great practioners of taqiya themselves. I agree that Blair is consciously lying about thinking there are only being a small number of extremists in the UK. I'm sure one of the things that impelled him to move forward on Iraq when he did was the Ricin manufacturing operation and the murder of a Brit police constable.

The disconnect is the moral and financial support he gives to the "Palestinians". He may or may not agree with his wife's well-known sympathies and sentiments, but even many of those who supported invading Iraq still turn a blind eye and deaf ear to the PA's continued support of terrorism/failure to act and reward them for these failures instead of tying aid to ending violence.

"Moderate Muslims haven't managed to combat "the perverted and poisonous misinterpretation of Islam" or mobilize the "moderate and true voice of Islam" since 9/11. Why not, Mr. Blair? And why will they start now?"

King: Perhaps in the frenzy to blame all of Islam for the actions of a few, you ignore the answer to your question of "where are the moderates and why aren't they cleaning up their house?"

Ever think that moderate Muslims are as scared of these criminal thugs as everyone else? These criminals already know nothing of Islam so they would certainly bomb a mosque that speak against them. They would certainly shoot people who speak against them. What we have here is an organized crime group that uses the basic tactics of fear and clandestine to do their drity work. Their "religious" basis is indeed perverted and radicalized.

Blair should sit in on conversations with UK university students who put up daily with anti-government/pro-terrorist garbage that comes out of the mouths of students, particularly the Pakistani. It ain't nice what is happening to the rank and file.

Oh there you go Imam Blair. Henceforth, Imam Blair will screen and approve all Muslim sermons like Turkay does.

KingTolerance-

Organized crime rings work for monetary and political profit. The only thing these worms are after is their 72 virgins.

Yes, indeed. Moderate Muslims are afraid of these thugs, these criminals who pervert Islam, like this poor boy, Shehzad Tanweer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4678837.stm

"He was a very kind and calm person. He was respected by everyone."

He just terrorized every moderate Muslim he saw. Yes, indeed.

And that is why no one would say a word to try to stop him.

BJ:

What about what comes out of the mouths of academics like Sue Blackwell?

Kafira:

Don't kid yourself about the money component and jihadists. The recruiters, bomb manufacturers and handlers are most certainly on someone's payroll. As for the suicide bombers, I don't know about the Brit-borns in last week's bombing of London or the twosome that entered Israel about a year ago and blew up Mike's Place, but we all know about the money paid to the families of Palestinian "shahids". I read an item somewhere recently that stated that there were actual "claims kits" emblazoned with Arab Bank branding available for the purpose.

Muslim apologists should try another line of rationalization.

How about the tried and true, "It has nothing to do with Islam. Its Bush's fault. Its Blair's fault. Its Israel's fault. Muslims actually had nothing to do with this. The Jews did it."

Keep talking, until the nonsense becomes intolerable, even for a King.

The constant fear based denials that 'terrorism has nothing to do with Islam' is a sad and telling indication of how much success the Islamists have had in their jihad -- Our leaders' craven comments illustrate how far behind the eight ball we really are... The implied threat that ALL MUSLIMS are party to is this:

'If you dare to associate Islam with this 'fringe' behavior of the 'terrorists' -- make no mistake -- I too will become a terrorist...'

Since when do we sit by like wilting violets allowing overt and covert threats to be made against our safety? If our leaders wish to continue protecting this sector of society, then I demand that they begin to explain exactly how the Muslims are helping in countering extremism and terrorism. To date I have heard very little which convinces me they are in any way supportive of our efforts to stop terrorism and extremist promulgation... Show me the evidence Muslims are 'law abiding' citizens...

Hello

My comments don't appear on JW???

Kafira: "The only thing these worms are after is their 72 virgins."

King: Right - by blowing people up and wreaking havoc to get them sounds like radical shit to me. I

Kafira: "Organized crime rings work for monetary and political profit."

King: And how is al-Qaida any different? They are organized, funded and have a political agenda that they are willing to kill for. I see them as a clear political entity as I see the IRA. Religion is distant down their agenda.

I find the incessant pinning of blame on the whole of Islam as bigoted, ignorant, sad, and just as dangerous as those whom you really hate...

KT

Religion is distant down their agenda? Then what do they want apart from installing an Islamic theocracy, you fool.

Yes, al Qaeda's goals have absolutely nothing to do with religion.

Consider the goal of establishing the new Caliphate. The new Caliphate is actually a club organized by this perverted-nothing-to-do-with-Islam guy named Caliph from Karachi. Osama just loved him, and decided to name his new "perverted-ideal-of-government-that-has nothing-to-really-do-with-Islam" after him.

Caliph was happier than he could ever imagined. But,what else could he do to match this experience, this experience of having this new nothing-to-do-with-Islam club named after him? Well, he went down to the local Kentucky fried chicken and blew himself up, because he figured, that according to the this text called the Sahih Bukhari which is a "nothing-to-do-with-Islam" hadith, he could get into heaven if he struck a blow against Infidels, who were against his new "nothing-to-do-with-Islam" club; and heaven was the only place he could be after having received such a high "nothing-to-do-with-Islam" honor.

And that's why we call it, the new Caliphate.

Voltaire: "Then what do they want apart from installing an Islamic theocracy, you fool."

King: Perhaps if you read further into this than dismissing 100% of it as Islamic you'd be able to connect a few of the dots. As with any other radical group, Islamic terrorism has a political motive attached to their madness. Religion is not the first thing on their sick minds - if it were they would not be murdering and wreaking havoc to begin with. This is agreed upon by 100% of Muslims who are not polluted by the perverted interpretations that these bufoons are.

Required topics for you are:

1. Why is the Arab world pissed off about Israel?

2. How has the West served to add fuel to this fire?

3. How has the West propped up thugs as the leaders of many Islamic states?

4. How can some Western behaviors be construed as aggressive in parts of the world who do not share our same cultural beliefs?

Oh - I almost forgot. You are a fool, too. QUid pro quo my friend...

I will post comments here as I think it is necessary for me, a British Muslim to make a stand against the evil of Extremism and Terrorism.

What happened on 7/7 was a tragic event for all. It was a heartbreaking incident, I couldn't believe that it actually happened. I was overtaken with rage when I saw the pictures on the News. I sympathise with the people that were killed and hurt. What happened was a crime against humanity, hopefully now measures will be taken in order to ensure that nothing like this will happen again. My thoughts go out to all those that were Killed and hurt in the tragic events. Soon I will hopefully be signing the book of condolences.

We all may feel anger and disgust however I can’t understand people blaming Islam. That is something I cannot understand. Please a challenge for the people here, tell me where Islam allows Muslims to kill innocent people indiscriminately. Please tell. I am a practising Muslim, I have attended many different Mosques and lectures, I have never heard the stuff being said by the people here. Tell me, how is Terrorism justified in Islam. How can the 7/7 attacks be justified under Islam. Make like the Wahabis and try to convince me.

A few hadiths for you:

Anas (May God be Pleased with Him) related that the Prophet (saws) said:
Go in the name of God and fight the enemy. But do not kill the elderly,
Children, or women. Do not be transgressors, for God loves the muhsinin.
(Those who keep the highest standards of discipline)

_________________________________________________

During his Caliphate, Abu Bakr as-Siddiq (May God be Pleased with Him) advised Usama (May God be Pleased with Him) as he was preparing to lead his troops:

Do not be treacherous, do not backstab, do not transgress, do not mutilate,
And do not kill children, the elderly, or women. If people are in their shrines
Leave them alone.”

Wow! two trolls on the board at the same time.
King of Fools meet IA796. I'm sure you guys will have a lot in common. Enjoy your fool hardy conversations.

"Ever think that moderate Muslims are as scared of these criminal thugs as everyone else?" Posted by the Fool.

No one is scared of these punks KF, it appears only you and your "peaceful muslims" are. That makes you a whimpy fool. So take your friends by the hand to a nice safe place in the house, cause the house is about to get cleaned. Don't get to close to the vacum cleaner KF or you're liable to get swept away with the filth.

Islam teaches me to follow the law of the land. I fully agree that those Muslims that wish to oppose democracy in the UK should leave. Those that support and are part of extremist groups should be deported. They are nothing but a burden and nuisance of the people of Britain.

I hope the UK will take more steps in the future to fight people like Omar Bakri and his cronies. He is a crook and deserves to be in prison, he has said horrid things that make me, a Muslim cringe. I believe that people like him should be deported. Groups like Hizb Ut Tahrir, Al-Muhajiroun, The Saviour(Deviant)-Sect should all be banned.

I will do all I can to ensure that Britain is safe, I will do my utmost to help the police and other authorities. That is what Islam teaches. Our Sheikh has told us to leave the UK if we don’t like the laws here, I think those extremists that oppose the British way of life should leave, the UK has been a soft target for far too long. Its about time we made our stand.

"Ever think that moderate Muslims are as scared of these criminal thugs as everyone else?" Posted by the Fool.

No one is scared of these punks KF, it appears only you and your "peaceful muslims" are. That makes you a whimpy fool. So take your friends by the hand to a nice safe place in the house, cause the house is about to get cleaned. Don't get to close to the vacum cleaner KF or you're liable to get swept away with the filth.

_________________________________________________

No, We aren't scared of them. The only problem is that when we oppose them, they have the police on their side.

We can't do anything. They may organise meetings and stuff like that, they wait outside mosques so that they can spread their propaganda. We oppose them, we complain to the police, the police don't really do anything. They come back again and again. Now hopefully they will have no where to run.

We ain't scared of them, I’ll tell you that.

"I'm sure many Muslims in Britain are indeed decent and law-abiding. But I see no indication that Blair has considered the implications of the New York Times' January 2005 assertion that the now-disbanded jihadist group Al-Muhajiroun was Britain's largest Muslim group."

The largest group!!! your having a laugh. You haven't got a clue.

"I can’t understand people blaming Islam. That is something I cannot understand...Tell me, how is Terrorism justified in Islam. "

I'm no expert 1a786 but for recent starters:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/007125.php#comments

Then you state:
"...Go in the name of God and fight the enemy..."
"...as he was preparing to lead his troops..."

Doesn't sound like a religion of peaceto me. Your religion was founded in blood and it is still surviving today on the blood of infidels. It can be debated forever as to whether the Koran sanctions or doesn't saction the killling of innocents. I don't care either way but I do know something is very wrong with your religion ia786. Please fix it!

Then you state:
"...Go in the name of God and fight the enemy..."
"...as he was preparing to lead his troops..."

Crusader, why have you only selected parts of the hadith, you are taking these words out of context.

"Doesn't sound like a religion of peaceto me. Your religion was founded in blood and it is still surviving today on the blood of infidels. It can be debated forever as to whether the Koran sanctions or doesn't saction the killling of innocents. I don't care either way but I do know something is very wrong with your religion ia786. Please fix it!"

Islam is surviving on the blood of infidels, what is that supposed to mean???

"It can be debated forever as to whether the Koran sanctions or doesn't saction the killling of innocents."

Debated forever, what???

Crusader, Islam doesn't allow the killing of innocents. No proof whatsoever can be provided. None. Terrorism is not allowed in Islam.

The problem is not with Islam, the problem is about extremist elements within the Muslim community. Extremism has been refuted through the Quran and the hadiths of the Prophet. Extremism has no place in Islam, as The Prophet said once, (forgive me as I don’t have the exact wording), Islam is the middle path (avoids extremism) I follow Islam. I am a law-abiding citizen in the UK, there is no contradiction here. A good Muslim will be a good British citizen, that is the way it works.

Now we have many important things to address, such as extremist groups in the UK. I suggest we focus our energy on making the UK more safe. What would you suggest?

Crusader: "King of Fools meet IA796. I'm sure you guys will have a lot in common. Enjoy your fool hardy conversations."

King: I am pleased to meet ia796 and welcome his much needed perspective. Oh, I'm sorry. I used a word that you are unaware of "perspective."
Anyhow, having two "trolls" here ought to give you ample opportunity to design and deliver a civil, robust and intellecutally stimulating debate. Unfortunately, you are off to a very poor start.

"Only a fool tests the depth of the water with both feet."

Keep testing the water with both of your feet, fool.

1. Why is the Arab world pissed off about Israel?
Who give a S$*t? Israel belongs to the Jews and islam can't have Jews anywhere near them. The qur'an says that Israel belongs to the Jews.

"Who give a S$*t? Israel belongs to the Jews and islam can't have Jews anywhere near them. "

King: And there you have it. Another stubborn, infuriating, sheltered unilateralist brought to you by the West! Now, multiply this by millions, throw in poverty, oppression and religious extremism and perhaps you can see how the swamp begins to fill up. Then again, you still think I am Muslim so I've little hope for your ability to grasp at an abstract idea such as this, but I am an optimist.

Shehzad Tanweer, hmmmm, I am trying to work out how a fish and chip shop owner is able to buy two mercedes and a detached house in Leeds, it just does not add up.

Kintolerance, your a smart arse, with a big mouth, your also an Amertican. Why can't the Jews have their homeland, even if we paid all the Palestinians to move to somewhere else and set them up, they would still be back trying to slaughter the Jews.

ia786, look your whole religion is a manual for war, I studided Byzantium history and it is truely interesting, you are obviously intelligent, but you just hear what you want to hear, that you come on this site and try to make a point. That you was disgusted is to your credit, I get the feeling that you mean this.

But Islam is evil, the perfect man was evil, robbing, assassination, killing those who opposed him with words, slavery etc. I just find Muslims so sad in believing such things, personally I am fed up with Muslims and their backward stupid culture. I still want to see you as people, but I am losing even that.

And where is the West, well look at this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4676751.stm

While you lot are still in the stone age. Use your intelligence, please...

ia786 can correct me if I'm wrong, but I everyone agrees that Islam teaches the following things:

1. Jihad is mandatory
2. Opposing hypocrites and misrepresentation of Islam is a form of jihad
3. Martyrdom is a high honour and should take precedence over a love of Earthly life

Ordinary Muslims are called to embrace martyrdom and jihad in the same way. Most won't, just like most Christians didn't oppose Hitler. But I don't think it's necessary for every Muslim to go on the offensive.

To be afraid of the terrorist organizations is human, but to be silent while the terrorists preach their propaganda freely is a gross breach of Islamic principles. I sympathise with ordinary Muslims who have had this duty thrust upon them, but in my view a Muslim who takes any position of religious authority has no excuses for cowardice.

If the leaders are brave enough to oppose terrorism, then others will follow. I don't think it's likely that the terrorists will kill moderates as King suggests, at least not in Britain (in some countries it is indeed dangerous to oppose terror). I don't think Al Qaeda will waste valuable bodies in a war against Muslim moderates. Prominent Muslims are regularly condemning terror and living to condemn terror again. But as an MP said recently: it's time to go beyond condemnation. It's time for confrontation. Muslims who believe in peace face a battle for the hearts and minds of their young people. Only an Islamic refutation of the terrorist agenda is going to prevent suicide attacks. England expects every man to do his duty.

Shehzad Tanweer, hmmmm, I am trying to work out how a fish and chip shop owner is able to buy two mercedes and a detached house in Leeds, it just does not add up.

That is possible.

"ia786, look your whole religion is a manual for war, I studided Byzantium history and it is truely interesting, you are obviously intelligent, but you just hear what you want to hear, that you come on this site and try to make a point. That you was disgusted is to your credit, I get the feeling that you mean this.

But Islam is evil, the perfect man was evil, robbing, assassination, killing those who opposed him with words, slavery etc. I just find Muslims so sad in believing such things, personally I am fed up with Muslims and their backward stupid culture. I still want to see you as people, but I am losing even that."

So what are you trying to say? Islam is evil, London was bombed by some fanatics and all you try to do is say that Islam is evil and you feel sad when see people practise Islam.

You have your opinions about Islam, you are free to believe what you want. Islam will not disappear. Muslims will not vanish, you are not even attempting to fix the situation.

I find it annoying that other people scrutinise my comments about the bombings in order to determine whether I am being honest. I have read other forums, whenever a Muslim condemned what happened, they were attacked and called liars. A terrorist attack that killed innocent people going to work is a horrid crime, what sort of a person would say that it was good. At least have a tiny bit of respect for Muslims.

I find the rest of your comments to be very offensive. Instead if trying to fix the situation at hand you are throwing more fuel into the fire.

Holy Quran Surah 8 Verse 12:

"God revealed to the angels, saying: 'I shall be with you. Give courage to the believers. I shall cast TERROR into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers!' "

I guess this means that Allah was one of the first purveyors of psychological terror....not to mention the advocacy of mutilation.

But "Islam is peace"

Ia786, the lying of islam returns. Good grief, I hope he not back to wipe the floor with us....AGAIN ?!!

In the Hadith of Bukari, the Prophet Muhammad is found plotting the murder of Ka'b simply because of criticism; he accepts the recommendation of a subordinate that all the adult males of the Banu Qurayzah tribe be put to death after their surrender during the 'Battle of the Trench'; he incites the murder of a pregnant poetess who ridiculed him in her verse and assures the perpetrator not to worry, that "not even two billy goats will bump there heads over it."

This and many other hadith and Quranic verses form the basis for Islamic violence and intolerance.

PS - Have you ever looked at the index of the Quran? Reference the word "war"....there are over a dozen entries....reference the word "peace"....not a single one.

Case closed.

ia786, you claim to know the "real" Islam, the tolerant kind.

It is estimated that there are AT LEAST 200,000 ex apostate muslims living in the UK. They endure threats and a great deal of intimidation. Yet NOT ONE uk m uslim leader has come out and denounced the shocking treatment of people who've freely chosen to leave the religion.

The day you join their ranks, ia786, will be the day you get to know the "real" Islam.

Read on ia786

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1470584_1,00.html

ia786,

Actually I think you were disgusted, all credit to you, your becoming a human being, that does not see the killing of infidels as a holy act.

Those fanatics were following what is in the Quran, simple as that.

Did you look at the link that I sent you, the future, not some sad bad religion gloryfying in war, killing and the taking of other peoples property and land.

Honesty, when imams, priests to us, tell us to our face that they are all for multi-culturism and then in private with their fellow believers call us pigs and apes and that we are disgusting etc. Where is the honesty in Muslims.

I look at the person first not their colour or where they come from, but what they think, what you lot think is disgusting.

Do you know that I despise your religion because your religion is destroying the liberal multi-culturism that I was hoping would make us one planet and at peace with one another. Yes I am annoyed, killing people going to work, for some twat living in his cave still upset over losing Spain, get real. Its pathetic.

All the other immigrants have settled in and added to the UK and what do your people do, try to destroy it.

Maybe you will get a good job, but if you don't I am sure it will be my fault.

And if you can not see that most of us are sick and tired of your sanctomonious holy, superior, perfect man rubbish, destroying our freedoms because you are incapable of living in peace with people who do not believe in your religion.

You lot are pouring oil on the fire across the globe not me.

Yes I am fed up, if I don't have to hear about Muslims moaning about the way they have been treated when they have treated others much worse than we have. I recently read up on the history of India and the Muslim invasions, how can your religion still refer to itself as a religion of peace, your all Nazi's with that sort of butchery, actually your worse.

I have no respect for Muslims, because they even lie to themselves.

KingTurkey:

500 million Arabs and 70 million Iranians are not living squalid lives because there are 5 million Jews living in Israel. The primary reason Arabs are p/o about Israel is because they hate Jews and it's so easy and useful for all of the corrupt and dictatorial regimes under which they live to divert the common populace's anger and dissatisfaction.

Things have been particularly nasty for the last 20 years because of Arafat's intifadas, funded so conveniently by foreign aid and alms from wealthy oil sheiks who could care less about Palestinians languishing in "camps" for 60 years and not because of the defensive measures Israel has been compelled to take.

In squalid camps is also where the likes of Arafat, Sadam, Assad and others want the Palestinians to live too, so,that as Anwar Sadat put it before he was assasinated by the Muslim Brotherhood for signing a peace agreement with Israel, "They cry crocodile tears over the blood of the sons of Egpyt and raise the price of oil."

When the Jews of eastern Europe came to join the Jews who had never left (Jerusalem, Safed and two other urban areas were always majority Jewish) the lands they came to develop were largely desertified and sold to them at outrageous prices by absentee Arab landowners.

Many of the Arabs who claimed refugee status after 1948 were only recent arrivals themselves, who came to take advantage of the improved economy that followed Jewish development of the land. Many others still, fled at the direction of the Arab leadership who promised a genocidal war against the Jews. And completely unlike any other situation in the world, UNRWA counted as refugees Arabs with as little as two years residency and even if they only returned to where they had come from originally or to be united with the bulk of their family.

DaffersD: "Kintolerance, your a smart arse, with a big mouth, your also an Amertican."

King: No, I am American. Smart arse and big mouth are nothing more than names called to me by a French bigot so I take them with a grain of salt.

DaffersD: "Why can't the Jews have their homeland, even if we paid all the Palestinians to move to somewhere else and set them up, they would still be back trying to slaughter the Jews."

King: I never said Jews should not have a homeland. I only pointed out that the Israel/Palestinian issue is one of the key issues in this whole morass. Maybe your academic viewpoint would be well recieved in the huge refugee camps (slums) where the Palestinians sit and stew in their anger, while innocent children are injured, killed or left homeless when their houses are bulldozed. There are two sides to this story, ingoring one of the sides is what fills the swamp.

IA786: "Instead if trying to fix the situation at hand you are throwing more fuel into the fire."

King: Indeed they do add fuel to the fire. The "minds" herein seem to think that their warbling and whining (sometimes incessant) about Islam and how evil it is will change the fact that 1.2 billion Muslims live on the Earth, most of whom do peacefully. They also seem to think that those who oppose their viewpoints are loud mouths, or equally intolerant as those they seem to hate.

I also find it interesting that they fail to see the parallel between their wholesale hatred and blame of a whole religon and what Hitler did in WWII with the Jews. History will always repeat itself when the ignorant and hateful run amok.

Let me begin with stating that I am no scholar. You should do some more background reading on this subject as my post may be wrong in parts, forgive me for any mistakes.

"1. Jihad is mandatory"

By this I think you are referring to physical jihad. As there is no central Muslim authority in place that can call for Jihad, Jihad is not mandatory. I am no expert, you should ask this question to a Sunni scholar. Again don’t forget that physical jihad is separate from terrorism. Even in warfare Islam doesn’t allow terrorism. Islam has stric rules when it comes to warfare.

Anas (May God be Pleased with Him) related that the Prophet (saws) said:
Go in the name of God and fight the enemy. But do not kill the elderly,
Children, or women. Do not be transgressors, for God loves the muhsinin.
(Those who keep the highest standards of discipline)

During his Caliphate, Abu Bakr as-Siddiq (May God be Pleased with Him) advised Usama (May God be Pleased with Him) as he was preparing to lead his troops:
Do not be treacherous, do not backstab, do not transgress, do not mutilate,
And do not kill children, the elderly, or women. If people are in their shrines
Leave them alone.”

"2. Opposing hypocrites and misrepresentation of Islam is a form of jihad"

Yes, waking up early in the morning for morning prayers is also a form of jihad. Jiahd means struggle, this can be anything. The Prophet Muhammad called the battle over the ego and evil desires a greater jihad.
When in a Non-Muslim country a Muslim has to abide by the rules of the land, so in the West Muslims will have to use the systems in place to oppose those that distort the message of Islam. Muslims are not allowed to transgress.

"3. Martyrdom is a high honour and should take precedence over a love of Earthly life"

Martyrdom is a high honour. There are many types of martyr, in Islam, if you die of a certain illness or if you die in an accident (car accident) you are considered a martyr. There are many different types of martyr. Out of them all I believe one that dies defending ones family, religion or property is ranked as the greatest martyr.
Terrorism on the other hand is something completely different. Those that planted bombs in London are cowards, that’s all they are. It was a cowardly attack. Acts of terrorism are not allowed in Islam.

_________________________________________________

"Ordinary Muslims are called to embrace martyrdom and jihad in the same way. Most won't, just like most Christians didn't oppose Hitler. But I don't think it's necessary for every Muslim to go on the offensive."

Who has made these calls??? Which respected Sunni scholar has called on Muslims in the UK to embrace martyrdom.

I seem to have missed something. Please don't give me the name of those crooks (Bakri, Abu Hamza, Bin Laden) They are a laughing stock.

_________________________________________________

"To be afraid of the terrorist organizations is human, but to be silent while the terrorists preach their propaganda freely is a gross breach of Islamic principles. I sympathise with ordinary Muslims who have had this duty thrust upon them, but in my view a Muslim who takes any position of religious authority has no excuses for cowardice."

What terrorist organisations in the UK?? those cowards wouldn’t dare show their faces because they know they would have us Muslims coming against them. Let me tell you something, I have never met a Muslim that is scared of these Muslim fanatics, it’s the other way around. That is why they stay hidden and only come out in the dark, they are spineless.

"Muslim who takes any position of religious authority has no excuses for cowardice."

I agree with you.

"If the leaders are brave enough to oppose terrorism, then others will follow. I don't think it's likely that the terrorists will kill moderates as King suggests, at least not in Britain "

You don't seem to know that much about the Muslim community. Muslim leaders have spoken against terrorism, Muslims have followed them. You seem to think that the extremists have a huge following, they don't. As Tony Blair said "This is a small group of extremists" I have lived here all my life. I have seen many different Muslims and I can tell you that their are only a few organisations with a small amount of followers. The majority of these followers are about my age, but confused and brainwashed. They go against the wishes of their families and elders. Our elders have warned us to stay away from such groups. They have no standing in Islam, none whatsoever. This is why their 'scholars' never dare to debate with the Sunnis. In my area I met one of these nuts, we told them to debate with a local Imam, they made like bananas and split. He was a member of Al-Muhajiroun, I even had of these nuts try to brainwash my brother, my younger brother fortunately knew about the deviancy of the Wahabis so he was alright. These extremist’s philosophy has been refuted, they have no standing.

In the Hadith of Bukari, the Prophet Muhammad is found plotting the murder of Ka'b simply because of criticism; he accepts the recommendation of a subordinate that all the adult males of the Banu Qurayzah tribe be put to death after their surrender during the 'Battle of the Trench'; he incites the murder of a pregnant poetess who ridiculed him in her verse and assures the perpetrator not to worry, that "not even two billy goats will bump there heads over it."

This and many other hadith and Quranic verses form the basis for Islamic violence and intolerance.

PS - Have you ever looked at the index of the Quran? Reference the word "war"....there are over a dozen entries....reference the word "peace"....not a single one.

Case closed.

_________________________________________________

Intolerant????....……

Case closed......If that is your argument, I wouldn't even bother turning up to court.

Actually I see the link, what you have posted clearly illustrates why some British Muslims would come down to London and blow up ordinary people going to work and university even though it is not allowed in Islam, oh lets not forget that they killed Muslims too. That makes a lot of sense.

KinTolerance, good, I thought you were an American, a Brit would have got the Kin bit. Bigot, if it makes you happy, you assume I am racist, that is a laugh, you should meet some of my friends. I have a problem with what people think and do, so that makes me a bigot.

Those Palestinians had my sympathy, they lost it, the offer hat Barak made was brave and fair and yet it was rejected, they want to stay in those huge refugee camps (slums) where the Palestinians sit and stew in their anger, while innocent children are injured, killed or left homeless when their houses are bulldozed to destroy weapons factories etc. for blowing up Jewish school children in buses. Just because the Jews dared to buy back their land and of course the infidels are not allowed to do that.

There you go again, back to calling us Nazi's, well there you go, your talking to some one who cried over a documentary over the Holocaust, something that those your protect with your fine words would glady do again if they had the chance and even say that it did not happen, or equate the crimes of Nazi Germany with the Palestinians, now where is that tree where the last Jew is hiding behind...

ia786, your a decent Muslim, whatever that may mean, perhaps you are a decent human being, now that really means something. Should I have put a "but" before the perhaps?

Fine words I hope its true?

IA786-

Two questions:

Do you believe that Israel has the right to exist as an independent Jewish-majority state?

Do you think Shariah law should replace constitutional law in Europe and America?

These two bits of information are all I really need......thanks.

ia786,

Do you think that I am glad to see Muslims killed in that attack, no, each death is a tradegy and a stupid senseless waste, they are people, each one had a life, hopes desires, they wanted children, or wanted to see their grandchildren, they were living.

Do you understand what the link says, what it means about the universe and god and our own understanding of god? Come on your intelligent and yes that is why those brainless dimwits chucked on a bomb filled vest to kill infidels, because we don't blindy accept god that tells us to kill and live by the rules of the most imperfect man.

Did you see that some of the suspected bombers were arrested in 2004. Nice one British police, glad I only go back to Blighty once a month...

"Those fanatics were following what is in the Quran, simple as that."

Please show your proof. I'm sure you fully understand the Quran, you know about the revelation of the verses, the order in which they appeared and the significance in this.

Please show me your proof, show some hadith too that allow the killing of innocents (including Muslims) going just going about their business.

If you want to prove anything, prove it through the system that Muslims have in place.

Did you look at the link that I sent you

Yes

"Honesty, when imams, priests to us, tell us to our face that they are all for multi-culturism and then in private with their fellow believers call us pigs and apes and that we are disgusting"

So which Mosque in the UK does this, please tell me. When was the last time you went for your prayers. You are speaking about things you know nothing about. I have never heard language like that in the Mosque. Islam is more than that. I expect a silly comment from you regarding my last sentence.

"I look at the person first not their colour or where they come from, but what they think, what you lot think is disgusting."

How do you know what all the Muslims of the UK think? You are a very intolerant person.

"Do you know that I despise your religion because your religion is destroying the liberal multi-culturism that I was hoping would make us one planet and at peace with one another."

Destroying the liberal multi-cultural system??? What are you talking about. Tell me one case when Islam was imposed on you, tell me one. Your comments are really offensive to me, it is people like you that are trying to destroy the liberal multi-cultural system. You are very intolerant and very aggressive.

"All the other immigrants have settled in and added to the UK and what do your people do, try to destroy it."

I'm not going to bother.

"Maybe you will get a good job, but if you don't I am sure it will be my fault."

Speaking of jobs did you know that Muslims face increased discrimination when it comes to job hunting. That must make you really happy, you know even I have experienced that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3885213.stm

Does giving Muslims an equal chance of getting a job make the UK a ‘Dhimmi State’???

"Yes I am fed up, if I don't have to hear about Muslims moaning about the way they have been treated when they have treated others much worse than we have. I recently read up on the history of India and the Muslim invasions, how can your religion still refer to itself as a religion of peace, your all Nazi's with that sort of butchery, actually your worse."

I'm not going to bother.

KT wrote:

"I also find it interesting that they fail to see the parallel between their wholesale hatred and blame of a whole religon and what Hitler did in WWII with the Jews"

The sheer idiocy of this statement takes my breath away. The incapacity to make a distinction between hatred of an ideology versus hatred of people who live under its shadow demonstrates a profound failure of the imagination. It would surprise you to know how many participants on the JW forum regard Muslims as Islam's biggest victims.

ia786:

"Intolerant????...Case closed......If that is your argument, I wouldn't even bother turning up to court."

I have never doubted your sense of decency, but how can you follow a religion that teaches hatred for Jews and death to apostates and be a "good" Muslim?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html

Don't deny it; The Hadiths of Bukhari are among the most respected. You suggest we do not "know Islam." There's a whole range of people on this forum with varying levels of education and common sense.

I'm afraid that the people who seem to understand Islam the least are the decent people like yourself who had the misfortune of being born into Islam: The fear of Hellfire (for the sin of shirk) prevents you from asking the hard questions you need to ask.

ia786:

By this I think you are referring to physical jihad.

Actually I meant jihad in its most basic sense, ie to struggle. Sorry for not making myself clear. I was responding to King's suggestion that moderate Muslims were not speaking out against terrorists because they were afraid of reprisals.

When I said that jihad is mandatory I didn't mean fighting, but struggle by any means necessary. I don't agree that violence is necessary in this context and I'm not advocating vigilante action against terrorists or those perceived to be terrorists.

When I spoke of martyrdom, I was thinking in the context of reprisal attacks by terrorists against Islamic moderates. This is closer to the Christian idea of a martyr, ie someone who is killed because they spoke out against evil. If King is correct and a moderate Muslim was murdered because of his beliefs, wouldn't he be a martyr?

What I was saying is that if the imams truly believe the Qur'an preaches peace, then they should wage jihad (by speaking out), and they shouldn't be intimidated by terrorist threats, if there were any. The Bible has a saying: fear not evil men, who can destroy only the body, but fear God who can destroy the body and soul in Hell. And the Qur'an says: "Think not of those, who are slain in the way of Allah, as dead. Nay, they are living. With their Lord they have provision. Jubilant (are they) because of that which Allah hath bestowed upon them of His bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not joined them but are left behind: that there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. They rejoice because of favor from Allah and kindness, and that Allah wasteth not the wage of the believers."

I even had of these nuts try to brainwash my brother, my younger brother fortunately knew about the deviancy of the Wahabis so he was alright. These extremist’s philosophy has been refuted, they have no standing.

Is any of this refutation on the Internet in English? I would be interested to look at it.

"Do you believe that Israel has the right to exist as an independent Jewish-majority state?"

Yes, they do have a right to an independent state just like the Palestinians.

"Do you think Shariah law should replace constitutional law in Europe and America?"

No. The people of the West have their laws, if they wish to change them they can. Nothing should be imposed on the people of the West. They have a democracy, they can live as they want, if they want Shariah they can have it, if they don't want it, that is upto them.

the Palestinians sit and stew in their anger, while innocent children are injured, killed or left homeless when their houses are bulldozed. There are two sides to this story, ingoring one of the sides is what fills the swamp.
Why? Why do the "paleostinians" sit and stew? I'll tell you why, because the islamic world doesn't produce anything but turmoil. How can a society become a vibrant , working society if you have to stop every so often to pray? ( and we all know it is not just a prayer, but washing feet, etc.) islam cares about nothing else but religion then blames everyone else for their failures. While at the mosque (armory) they hear a sermon about how they are not doing their duty as muslims if they are not engaged in jihad. The so-called "palestinian" people are in reality Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians whom we call "Jordyptians". They are an invented people, never heard of until 1967.

"If King is correct and a moderate Muslim was murdered because of his beliefs, wouldn't he be a martyr?"

Yes.

"Is any of this refutation on the Internet in English? I would be interested to look at it."

Well most of these fundamentalists come from Wahabis organisations. That is Hizb Ut Tahrir, Al-Muhajiroun etc. The Taliban, Osama, they are all Wahabis. That is the major problem here, we hear politicians saying that it is only a few Muslims, well it is the Wahabis that are the main cause of this problem.

I have seen this with my own eyes. I will try to post some links for you soon.

King,

Since you insist on exploiting the Nazi imagery, two can play at this game. You see, Hitler was a very evil man, but he understood Islam in ways you can never imagine:

"Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers -already, you see, the world had already fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing Christianity! -then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity
alone prevented them from doing so."

(August 28, 1942, midday)

p. 667 "Hitler's Table Talk; 1941-1944" translated by N. Cameron and R.H. Stevens, Enigma Books (1953)

Andrei,

Very interesting quotation. If you look at Hitler's speeches, which were published in the U.S. during the war (the editor had a French name that I cannot remember), you will find that along with various volksdeutsche -- Sudeten Germans above all -- there is only one other group in the whole wide world that Hitler repeatedly mentions as deserving of support -- the "Arabs of Palestine." [N.B. the "Palestinian people" were not around for him to support -- they were invented after 1967]. Yes, even in his last sppeches before Munich, he always mentioned his sympathy for "the Arabs of Palestine."

Not surprising. In the same way, those suffering from milder forms of that widespread pathological condition, antisemitism, are often completely unable to recognize the real nature of Islam and the menace it presents. thus does the thoroughly repulsive (in every sense) Pat Buchanan write a column explainnig that the terrorism in London is a result of "occupation" and that all the Arabs and Muslims care about are getting the outsiders out of their "occupied lands" -- the British and Americans in Iraq, the American airmen in Saudi Arabia, and the Israelis in....the "occupied territories." Buchanan is prevented by his own pathological condition from recognizing the nature of Islam, of reading the texts and what the authoritative commentators on these texts claim they must mean, and which over more than a millennium they have been taken to mean.

Antisemitism is, in this particular war, not only an obvious marker for a security threat (someone who cannot be trusted on the subject of Islam), but it also gets in the way of real understanding. Not that Buchanan ever had much to offer -- he is a kind of mirror image of Tom Friedman. They deserve each other. They are on the same level.

"Destroying the liberal multi-cultural system??? What are you talking about. Tell me one case when Islam was imposed on you, tell me one. Your comments are really offensive to me"...ia786.
Well ia I can give you what you want.
In August of 2000 my daughter was gang raped by 14 MUSLIM pigs(three gangs) in three different locations over a 6hr period,she was sodomised and had a gun put her head.I find your death cult offensive .
I've got more cases if you want......

IA786-
Thanks for your reply. I have another question,

Would you personally prefer to live under Sharia or constitutional law?

iwa said...Again don’t forget that physical jihad is separate from terrorism. Even in warfare Islam doesn’t allow terrorism. Islam has stric rules when it comes to warfare....

Why do you come here and make these ridiculous statements. No one here believes you. If you are going to expend effort on taquiyya, do it on some website populated by stupid liberals, dhimmis and apologists. They love that stuff.

If you put a crocodile's egg in a robin's nest, if doesn't hatch into a redbreast.

These homicidal lunatics are no more "British" than a soup spoon is made of soup. They are Muslims, and every place they go, or are born, becomes Islam (or Islam-to-be) to them.

Blair needs to read a a few serious histories of the Muslim conquests from the 7th century to the 18th, as well as their classical religio-political theorists, and start learning the HARD basics about this Imperialistic Intolerant Impulse.

He's a well-meaning fellow, but his light bulb isn't quite screwed in tight.

DaffersD: "I have a problem with what people think and do, so that makes me a bigot."

King: No, from reading your posts you seem to have a problem with Islam and all Muslims. You base this on the acts of a minority and refuse to accept that Islam can, has, and will be practiced peacefully by over a billion people. This makes you a clear-cut bigot. Sorry, but I'm just the smart-arsed messenger. Moreover, you've failed to articulate a solution. YOUR SOLUTION. You've blathered hate and other sorts of insults but I have yet to read one solution from you.

So, what say you? What shall we do with 1.2 billion practicing Muslims in dozens of nations? You are scared shitless of them, so how do you propose to fix this then?

BigSnore: "They are Muslims, and every place they go, or are born, becomes Islam (or Islam-to-be) to them."

King: Speaking of a bulb not being screwed in tight enough - what the hell are you talking about now with your parables of soup spoons and crocodile eggs?

Before you come back at me with another high powered parable, I challenge you to the same thing as I challenged DaffersD. What is your bright idea of a solution then? I cannot wait to read...

"He's a well-meaning fellow"
--- from a posting above, commenting on Blair

He is guilty of criminally negligent behavior. All he has to do is sit down and read, with understanding, the Qur'an (with appropriate commentary), the Hadith (al-Bukhari and Muslim would do; he need not go through all six collections deemed the most authoritative, for they are the two set off from the rest), and the Sira (the life of Muhammad).

He studied for the English equivalent of our Bar Examination, did he not? His silly wife managed to take silk, but she still doesn't know the first thing about Islam, or the motivation of the relentless Arab Jihad against Israel.

He needs to study. He has got to stop making pronouncements about things that he wishes were true, but which are false -- and at this point, he can not offer any evidence to support his idiotic and dangerous assertions about that "vast and overwhelming majority" of Muslims whom, he claims are "decent and law-abiding." He lacks the imagination to realize that hundreds of thousands, or millions of people, could pay their taxes, not litter or jaywalk, not become drunks or gamblers, and still, in their hearts, harbor hatred -- hatred so long inculcated, so wrapped up in the very nature of Islam, which divides the world between Believer and Infidel --for every last Infidel in England, or the world. It is beyond his ken, beyond his imagining. He is an ordinary man, more verbal than many, and by comparison with Bush, who verges on dyslexia, seems in his ready fluency to be practically Pericles in his oratorical ability. Nonsense. He is spouting stupidities right and left, and I am afraid this is the real Tony Blair. It is not part of a cunning act to keep the Muslims quiet even as we begin to sneak up, rhetorically (an "ideology of hatred") and otherwise.

Would that it were. But it isn't. They really are, all of them, all of them, Bush and Blair and the "experts" you can hear on NPR -- Peter Bergen and Profesor Pape with his "research" both offering their own varying brands of miscomprehension of Islam and the full scope and menace of Jihad, the My Weekly Reader boys, the odious Pat Buchanan, the young men on the staff of The New Republic, Franklin Foer, Charles Krauthammer, and all of them, except those who at long last are beginning to figrue out that they should actually study the theory and practice of Islam, and analyze matters from there, rather than rallying around some "stay-the-course" Bush, or for that matter, giving the even more awful people who think that Bush is far too "tough" (he's nothing of the sort) on Muslims and we need to be nice to them (which courts disaster, given Muslim psychology).

This is a case, a fascinating one, where almost everyone, no matter how each may differ from the other, has it wrong -- simply can't get it right, because they will not study Islam.

And they all have the same excuse: The Dog Ate My Homework.

Meanwhile, the quality of Infidel life inexorably goes down, becomes more unpleasant, expensive, and dangerous, and our leaders flail and flail about, trying to keep up with O. J. Simpson as we crawl through the underbrush, attempting to find, yet again, the real killer.

No one is listening.

An excerpt from the Van Gogh murderer:

---------------------------------------

Mohammed Bouyeri also turned to Van Gogh's mother, Anneke, in court and told her: "I don't feel your pain."

"I can't feel for you because I think you're a nonbeliever," he said.

Bouyeri, 27, who faces life imprisonment in the Nov. 2 killing of Van Gogh, who was found shot and stabbed. He has not mounted a defense.

"I did it out of conviction," Bouyeri said. "If I ever get free, I would do it again."

---------------------------------------

This man is announcing to the world the true intentions and dictates given to him by his beloved prophet.

The world refuses to listen because they (out of the decency of their hearts) can't believe that a "religion" would sanctions such acts.

Yes, they do have a right to an independent state just like the Palestinians. ~ Ia

They do, its called Jordan, it was created along with Israel. Maybe you should pick up a book other then the Qur’an sometime.

King Tut Tut-

Play dumb if you like.

These 'parables' (actually analogies, or painfully simple metaphors) are no more occult than Aesop. Or is he still forbidden in Islam? (Since he mocked kings by clothing them in feathers and quills?)

It's plain as the lengthening nose on your face:

those who come to a free country not to adapt but to undermine, and those who are born there, but who nevertheless delight in attempting to turn their 'home' land into a Bronze Age theocratic tyranny, are hardly worth of being called true citizens.

They are human cuckoo's eggs.

A creature that makes one question the Creator's so-called 'benevolent' plan, it is such a devious, vicious, heartless and bizarre little bugger. Infanticide in the genes.

Let those who love liberty defend it.

Let those who prefer to have their brains used as platters for serving up ossified dogma find a country better fit for their retrograde gullibility and contempt for growing consciousness and progressive understanding of the Universe.

Mecca comes to mind.

Frozen like a meteor in mud.

My answer?

I would encourage people to go live where they love.

Not move to places they despise and then try to destroy these nests of others.

Whether out of anal-sadistic resentment about their own cultural, historical, intellectual and creative failings. Or for the intolerant dictates of a patriarchal megalomaniac.

Stay home and fix you own land.

Don't spread the misery.

It's being a lousy guest, at best.

The next step in Britain? Apparently one of the guys who has been identified, but not killed, was at a university in Leeds studying, of all things, biochemistry. Looks like he has flown the coop.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050713/wl_uk_afp/britainattacks_050713233940;_ylt=AoR9c3ZlydUj0vVBDIN4pXS9Q5gv;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

British police identify London bombings mastermind: report

......
Police additionally want to interview an Egyptian-born university lecturer who was teaching in Leeds until a few weeks ago.

According to The Sun newspaper, the man, who it named as 33-year-old Magdi El-Nashar, was studying for a biochemistry doctorate at Leeds University and disappeared just before the attacks, it is thought to Egypt.

At least two of the bombers had links to his rented flat, which is one of six addresses in and around Leeds raided by police on Tuesday morning, the report added

"Islam teaches me to follow the law of the land" - IA

Comming from someone who thinks its OK to have sex with nine year olds, simply because his deranged "profit" did.

IA - you cannot respect nine year olds, how can you respect another adult???

Oh Hugh, you do crack me up! reset

"poisonous and perverted misinterpretation of the religion of Islam".
-- Tony Blair explaining what the "imams" must help expose and combat

Well, I don't know how to break this to Tony Blair. But if he thinks those who wish to conduct Jihad, by all means available, are the ones offering a "perverted misinterpretation" of Islam he is flatly wrong. Osama Bin Laden tells the truth about Islam; he is a better Muslim, more of a truth-teller, than any "Muslim spokesman" who assures us that these events "have nothing to do with IsLam" or, in the same vein, "Islam is about peace" or "no real Muslim could do this." This is nonsense.

And perhaps Blair knows, deep down (and deep down he's shallow) that what he is saying is nonsense, and he shows it in his over-emphatic attempts to exculpate Islam. For he calls this not merely a "misinterpretation" but also a "perverted misinterpretation" as if that adds anything other than attempting to convince, by bullying verbal piling-it-on, that Islam indeed has been perverted, has been misinterpreted, has been subject to "perverted misinterpretation."

It is easy to prove him wrong. One need only consider the life of Muhammad. Is Blair prepared to enter a debate on what the Life of Muhammad contains by way of example of the supreme, always-to-be-emulated Model Man, uswa hasana? What does he know about Muhammad? Send that man a reprint of Sir William Muir's "Mahomet" (nice yellow cover, large format, costs about $50 and well worth it). Send him a few books by Joseph Schacht and David Margoliouth. Send him a collection of 20-30 articles, perhaps those to be published in Andrew Bostom's forthcoming "The Legacy of Jihad." Send him Robert Spencer's "Isalm Unveiled" and "Onward Muslim Soldiers" and "The Myth of Islamic Tolerance." Send his veddy Catholic wife, on a page, the damning comments on Islam by Pope Benedict XVI. Send Blair not only Ibn Warraq's "Why I Am Not a Muslim" and "Leaving Islam" -- but bring Ibn Warraq over to meet Tony, for their paths may have crossed in swinging London so long ago, in those quaint quant days of yore.

Educating Rita was all about the working-class girl who goes to school, and she (played by Julie Walters, in her first appearance) has as her tutor Michael Caine. I think the scenes were shot at Trinity College, Dublin, but there was a not completely-successful attempt to efface telling signs of Gaelic, and certainly no one had a view of The Swastika and Bells, which should be put out of its misery, don't you all agree?

Well, more than 20 years have passed, and now it is an Oxford graduate, Mr. Tony Blair ("Bill" Clinton, "Tony" Blair -- what happened to a little aloofness, a little political pudeur?), who even though he graduated from Oxford, and apparently has always been considered bright and rose through the ranks to snatch the glittering prize of Prime Minister) apparently never learned how to figure out what he might not now, and how to go about mugging up a subject. His statements about Islam have been consistently ill-informed, wrong-headed, unforgivable. We would like to be able to forgive him, but he is making it very difficult indeed. So why doesn't he study -- just take a few weeks, forget about Sardinia with Bush and Berlusconi (god what a fortune of taxpayers's money would have to be spent on security -- just go to the Isle of Wight, for god's sake, and stay close to the people you have so misinformed and misled, and shut up about the pasta and oil and cioccolatini, and study, read, study. You can do it. Pretend you've gone back to school. Pretend its A-levels time, all over again.

But until you have studied or at least read a few times Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira, and unless you have acquainted yourself with Bat Ye'or, Ibn Warraq, Robert Spencer, and a few others (oh, please google 800 or so postings here at Jihadwatch which will tell you everything you need to know), just shut up.

Shut up, we explained.

D.T.-

Amid all the ugliness and harshness in this world, let me nevertheless express my extreme sympathies. What an awful thing to happen to one's daughter. One thing this board is too often short on, is the barbaric treatment suffered by women under Islam. This is truly not a religion of a benign deity.

Again, my sympathies and prayers to you and your daughter.

But until you have studied or at least read a few times Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira, and unless you have acquainted yourself with Bat Ye'or, Ibn Warraq, Robert Spencer, and a few others (oh, please google 800 or so postings here at Jihadwatch which will tell you everything you need to know), just shut up.

Shut up, we explained.

Posted by: Hugh at July 13, 2005 10:26 PM

Oh King!

Today another 30 Iraqis, mostly children, were killed by a suicide bomber. I think the death tally alone is over 1500, who knows what the wounded but still living count is. Just a few of those misinterpreting and misunderstood Muslims. Blair and Bush need to wake up, we are at war with Islam. I hate to say it, but the war is being forced on us. Of course, on the islamist sites, they say the war is being forced on them. It is not too late to stop the Muslim immigation to America.

Why is the Arab world pissed off about Israel?

2. How has the West served to add fuel to this fire?

3. How has the West propped up thugs as the leaders of many Islamic states?

4. How can some Western behaviors be construed as aggressive in parts of the world who do not share our same cultural beliefs?

Posted by KT

So the evil West is responsible for their chronic rage; who would have guessed? Rage is endemic to Islam and is evoked on cue by Islam's pious clerics, the inciters of jihad. The Arabs are pissed off about Israel because they despise the Jews with a malevolent passion, and because Israel built a thriving, free, prosperous nation. A modern, progressive country that has surpassed every Arab nation because the Jews are smarter, stronger, and most importantly, they're not crippled by the disease of ISLAM. Israel's phenomenal success and progress over the last fifty years, while constantly defending itself from savage muslims, is nothing short of miraculous, and it serves as a constant reminder to the barbarians next door and to the world just how corrupt, savage, inadequate, inferior, and evil Arab muslims are.

Who enraged muslims prior to the existence of the U.S., and why they have been waging war against the rest of humanity for over 1300 years? Tyrants have ruled over muslims since the advent of Islam. Some of those tyrants have been easier for the West to deal with than others but none were forcibly put into power by the "West." The U.S. has never colonized the Middle East. Imagine what the depth of their backwardness and stagnation would be today without European colonization. Maybe they would still be so primitive, illiterate and destitute that they would be innocuous instead of culturally primitive, bellicose, and wealthy from oil revenues.

Islam is like a pernicious disease. It creates madmen, hate, intolerance, misery, suffering, sorrow, and perpetual war. I hate it with a passion and before this conflict ends, you will too, if you're not a muslim and if you're still alive. If you truly believe we should tolerate muslims, their religion of hate, their goals of world domination, and put ourselves and our loved ones in constant danger from the "few extremists" who are daily blowing up innocents, you are insane. What will you say in their defense when the suicide bombers begin their grisly atrocities here? Or when the nukes explode in NYC, LA, and elsewhere? Will it matter that every muslim in America didn't participate in the carnage, just a few of the intrepid shahids they all love and support? No, all muslims are not terrorists but they're all cut from the same cloth.

How could you hate your own civilization and culture so much that this death cult is more appealing to your liberal sensitivities? Of all the people in this world who have truly been persecuted and maligned, why would you defend a cult of murderous barbarians who are guilty of more intolerance, cruelty, persecution, genocide and inhumanity than even Hitler and the Nazis?

Blair and his stupid wife (how on earth did she pass the bar?) are responsible for the present state of affairs in the UK. The Blair govt. has been turning a blind eye to the danger of Islamic fanatics for years. His response to public unrest was to enact draconian 'hate crime' laws directed at ordinary British people, not at the fanatics spewing their filth in every mosque.

We had the dubious pleasure of a 'charity' visit from Cherie Blair last year. At one event, Cherie and her equally greedy children grabbed so many 'freebies' that public scorn forced them to return the things they had taken. This is the same dimwit whose closest friends were a notorious conman and his girlfriend. Cherie Blair was taking 'life advice' from this couple.

King T. asks:

1. Why is the Arab world pissed off about Israel?

2. How has the West served to add fuel to this fire?

3. How has the West propped up thugs as the leaders of many Islamic states?

4. How can some Western behaviors be construed as aggressive in parts of the world who do not share our same cultural beliefs.

The answer? Excuses excuses.

The principles of jihad have a long history:

Ibn Hudayl was a 14th century Granadan author who wrote an important treatise on jihad.

“It is permissible to set fire to the lands of the enemy, his stores of grain, his beasts of burden – if it is not possible for the Muslims to take possession of them – as well as to cut down his trees, to raze his cities, in a word, to do everything that might ruin and discourage him, provided that the imam (i.e. the religious “guide” of the community of believers) deems these measures appropriate, suited to hastening the Islamization of that enemy or to weakening him. Indeed, all this contributes to a military triumph over him or to forcing him to capitulate.”

Hmm, that sounds familiar.

The following quotes from the Koran are perfectly in tune with the beliefs of the terrorists, yet you say that Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islam - Have these quotes been ‘mistranslated’ or ‘misinterpreted’?

Koran 48:29: “Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another, but ruthless to unbelievers”

Koran 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’”

Koran 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I am with you. Give firmness to the Believers. I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Koran 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”

Koran 9:5 “When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, beleaguer them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qu’ran 4:89
They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them (disbelievers) till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them.

SusanP: "So the evil West is responsible for their chronic rage; who would have guessed?"

King: Obviously not you, which is why you continue to whine your unilateral, double-standard infused diatribe on why Islam sucks and why the west is innocent of all charges. Arabs do not see it this way so unless you are able to dispassionate yourself, be pragmatic on how to solve the problem, you will always live in bigoted fear.

SusanP: "the Jews are smarter, stronger, and most importantly, they're not crippled by the disease of ISLAM."

King: Eerily and ironically, this sounds an awful like Arianism to me. You are one sick broad.

SusanP: "Israel's phenomenal success and progress over the last fifty years, while constantly defending itself from savage muslims, is nothing short of miraculous"

King: It sort of helps to have the financial and military backing of the most powerful nation on Earth, my dear. Did you forget about that part or selectively ignore it due to your bigotry?

SusanP: "why they [Muslims] have been waging war against the rest of humanity for over 1300 years?"

King: One could ask the same about Christians, too. Being partly of Brazilian heritage, I know, first hand, what horrors the Spanish, French and Portuguese Christians brought with them to South America. Christians spread their religion and language under threat of death. Christians terrorised Blacks in the 1950's and 1960's by burning crosses at lynching parties. Christians spread their missions to places like India & Africa to convert and control. If you try to weasle out of it I'll know of your intellectual honesty.

Andrei:

KingTaquiya is a moral equivalencer who routinely attempts to draw the most repugnant parallels. One recent howler was to portray the animosity toward Muslim immigrants, enough of whom either morally or financially support jihaddism, as the equal of the animosity Poles displayed towards its large Jewish minority in the run-up to the Holocaust.

Like Poland's rabbis were exhorting the faithful to take up arms and impose Judaism on Poland and like there were young Jewish suicide bombers terrorizing the population.

Waterlilly: "KingTaquiya is a moral equivalencer who routinely attempts to draw the most repugnant parallels."

King: Moral equivalencer to you = moral consitency to me and the rest of the world. Repugnant parallels to you = moral consistency to me and the rest of the world. Being a Jew, as you proclaim, I would think you'd see the parallels I draw between what Hitler said about Jews, as a whole, and what you say about Muslims, as a whole. Alas, you are as blind as everyone else.

Waterlily: "One recent howler was to portray the animosity toward Muslim immigrants, enough of whom either morally or financially support jihaddism, as the equal of the animosity Poles displayed towards its large Jewish minority in the run-up to the Holocaust."

King: I never said this. Either you are making shit up or have me confused for someone else. Is this what your argument tactics have resorted to, Waterlilly?

Where oh, King "Tolerance", are the Christian suicide bombers? I don't want to hear about the 50's or the 60's...now. Either you are a muslim or you are thick between the ears. Actually I would respect you more if you were a muslim, I could understand you defending your religion. But to defend a death-cult because you hate our Christian based society is not rational.

I'm new to this site... Why is KingTolerance so intolerant...? I've never seen so much name calling, sarcasm, and arrogance in one person's postings? Is he a Muslim? This would explain the seething anger on display -- Just wondering!

By the way King "Tolerance", anyone who wants to can come into a Christian church and worship or observe. Try that in a mosque. (An armory)

Kintolerance,

Why should I bother to even answer someone like you, true I goaded you by calling you a smart arse, but it was amusing to see once more the Nazi comment come out once again, the stock in trade answer to any one who fails to understand that sometimes freedom has to be defended.

Anyway, I will answer you.

1 No more Muslim immigration into the West, I know this impacts those that are already there, bu splitting famillies etc. But I can see no other way.

2. Protection for all Muslims that declare themselves Apostle and severe punishments on any Muslims that lift a finger against them

3. Mosques are to be heavily controlled to prevent hate speach.

4. No religious schools paid for by public money, any private funded schools to be assessed to make sure that they are teaching certain core skills to fit within a modern world.

5. A block on all Saudi funding of Islam in the West.

6. The West put a huge effort into developing alternative energy sources to get away from oil.

7. There should be a special security tax payable by Muslims in the West to cover additional security costs. Only if the level of terrorism in the West requires it.

8. Use the French system to deal with terrorists across Europe.

Apart from the above carry on as we are, being careful to treat all human life with respect and under the rule of law.

This means that there would have to be certain restriction on Muslims, that would cause them to feel targetted and victims. I regret that but they brought it on themselves.

No, KingTolerance, I'm not making it up. You did try to liken the claimed persecution of Muslims in the UK today to the situation of Jews in Poland 60 years ago. It was your typical, shot-from-the-lip moral equivalencing, so astoundingly off the mark as to be absurd. Sorry if you can't remember it.

Blair's attempt to immediately and unconditionally absolve Britain's larger Muslim community of any responsibility for the terror emanating from within their ranks has the unfortunate effect of mitigating the need for the very soul-searching and introspection that might just result in an eventual community-wide repudiation of radical and violent interpretations of the Islamic faith.

I don't for a minute believe in collective guilt...and I feel strongly that statements warning against retaliatory violence are imperative in the aftermath of such atrocities as 7-7 and 9-11. But the larger issue of theological interpretation is one that - in my mind - is both inappropriate and counter-productive for a non-Muslim British leader to be addressing. More than anything else, it smacks of the desparation of wishful thinking.

Blair would do much better to ask the Muslim community to engage in a serious effort of self-examination in order to come to terms with the uncomfortable reality that a violent and virulent strain of Islam has taken root within the ummah...and to implore his Muslim countrymen to formulate a program of action that will isolate and then expurgate that strain from the body of Islam.

Whether or not such an approach would succeed is a matter of debate. But it is most certainly preferable to the existing automatic absolution that frees the Muslim ummah from the painful introspection that is in point of fact an indispensible pre-condition for its reformation.

7. There should be a special security tax payable by Muslims in the West to cover additional security costs. Only if the level of terrorism in the West requires it.

Jizyah?