CAIR, Muslims To Call For Celestica Prayer Accommodation

"Minneapolis, Minnisoda"

Celestica Company will soon have a Muslim prayer room and lots of workers in that room when they should be working.....I have always wondered about non-Muslim workers when these rules go into effect. How do they feel? Are they so intimidated that they stay silent? I know I would be very angry and resentful and look for another job if possible. Of course, there are bothroom issues too; they must have special places to wash their feet and that should not be in a place that dirty non-Muslims are also using...and then, of course, there is the matter of the call to prayer...and a special place to store all of those sacred Korans...It never stops. When will corporate America wake up or are they in the mindset as the FBI and the DOJ and all the other government agencies that encourage the establishment of Islam as the law of the land.

Employers should no more accommodate religious practice in the workplace than they should sexual activity.

If someone wants to go pray on their break, well more power to them, but I don't believe the employer should be required to "provide" anything in the way of time or space for religious rites. Do you have any idea how crazy that could get?

f.g.

Let them pray silently at their workstations like everyone else. Other employees should refuse to cover for them so that productivity suffers which will give the company incentive not to hire muslims.This is what happens when you have a large number of muslims in your employ, once that happens its not long before demands are made for special treatment.

A clear indication of how Christianity has matured in the modern West: If a Christian worker feels the need to pray during his work day, all he has to do is find a quiet spot on his break once a day and pray quietly, most often just improvising the words according to his feelings & thoughts at the time, perhaps holding a Bible in hand (but not necessarily), and during lunch just briefly close his eyes and silently give blessings for his food. That's it.

With Muslims enslaved to ritual and literalism, prayers must be mandated with claptrap like

1) spatial direction
2) prostrating on the floor
3) prayer mats
4) Koran absolutely necessary
5) ablutions
6) other concerns for purity
7) a strictly enforced amount of time allotted
8) a strictly enforced schedule of when to pray.

What's next? All non-muslims must leave the building? Onsite mosques? A pen out back where you can slaughter your own lunch?

f.g.

I believe Celestica is controlled by Onex Corp. also based in Toronto. The Chairman of the Board, President and Chief Executive Officer of Onex Corporation is Gerald Schwartz. Let's see how this one plays out.

#1 - the law is the law and it applies to those of all religious persuations. I consider this a strength of the US.

#2 - hatred or misunderstanding of the religion is irrelevant in the eyes of the law.

#3 - if you are going to hire folks who come from a strong religious background, you should be prepared to accomodate their reasonable needs. the key word here is reasonable.

#4 - I see CAIR's role as briding the gap between two cultures that can be fairly ignorant of each other and they are doing their job in this case.

Moral equivalence:

People leave their posts all of the time to smoke a cigarette outside (sometimes religiously, pun intended) yet nobody whines about that.

Metaxy:

If you were describiing any other faith outside of Islam, the followers would be dismissed as loonie cult members.

I find myself musing over the need to pray five times a day. In Judaism, it's reciting the She'ma three times daily. Perhaps this is Islamic two-upsmanship.

One day maybe these mates should come to understand that the liability of hiring Muslims far outweighs the benefits.

They're a real pain in the lower paddock.

If Muslim workers are going to have to leave the site at which they are working, go somewhere else, take off their shoes, perform their ritual ablutions or wudu, then prostrate themselves meccatropically and repeatedly move their torsos up and down again (presumably not all floors are completely clean, even with those prayer rugs which, themselves, may be harborers of, or breeders of, bacterial infection), if they are to do this five times a day, or let us assume at least 3 times a day in an ordinary 8-hour workday, and in leaving machinery possibly hold up an entire line so that the Infidel workers who do not leave their jobs nonetheless will hav to stop work as well -- if all of this is to be done, the economic consequences, not to mention the cost of finding a prayer room, a place to keep rolled-up prayer mats, and of course the non-economic cost that comes from a self-identified group removing itself from a production line and causing far greater disruption of the remaining Infidel workforce, including damage to overall employee morale -- if all of this is to be allowed, then the company will suffer. Any company with Muslm employes will suffer, beyond what it already suffers in general attitudes, in proselytizing in the workplace, in the Ramdan problem (what happens if half the workers have not eaten, and this effects their proper functioning, their ability to work).

No, there is only one solution. Muslim workers need to be hired by fellow Muslims. These fellow Muslims will be willing, no doubt, to endure the economic consequences of the five canonical prayers, and of Ramadan. And having an all-Muslim workforce also helps eliminate the stress of constant, sly Da'wa being offered to the non-Muslim employees, not all of whom may relish it.

But, you say, there are so few Muslim-owned businesses in Canada. I mean, if you really want to find Muslim-owned businesses in sufficient quantity, you'd have to go to Muslim countires to find them.

Exactly.

I see King Flatulance is back blowing stale air into the mix. CAIR couldn't bridge a gap between Alfred E. Newman's teeth, you ass clown.

People leave their posts all of the time to smoke a cigarette outside (sometimes religiously, pun intended) yet nobody whines about that.

Bad comparison. Smoking is increasingly being banned on hospital grounds for both employees and patients. Employees who smoke are being encouraged to stop. If an employee must smoke he is to clock out and leave the hospital grounds. The employee can only clock out and leave with his supervisor's permission as the the hospital does not have to accomadate the practice of smoking. Employees caught smoking on hospital grounds can be terminated.

Employers do not have to accomodate unreasonable religious practices.If an employee wants to pray let him do it silently or at home on his own dime. Watch how quickly muslims are dropped as employees if their presence starts effecting productivity.

Hugh: "No, there is only one solution..."

King: Well, I agree with this statement but completely reject the hysterical platform on which you build it. Indeed, the only solution here is to tolerate those who practice a religion different from your own and afford them reasonable measure in which to practice their religion. Its not about economics nor is it about Muslims taking over the world in a diabolically planned scheme as you seem to subscribe to. Its about freedom to be whatever religion you wish. if a Satanist wanted to have 10 minutes to go somewhere and bark at the moon or whatever they do I say fine.

I know this concept is really, really challenging to most of you as you try, in vein, to trip me up with your moronic insults and colloquial barking. Nevertheless, I stand firm and proud that tolerance and understanding is the key. As I've said, there are 1.2 billion people who seem to disagree with you...

Roxane: "Watch how quickly muslims are dropped as employees if their presence starts effecting productivity."

King: Read the law above. If they are fired based on exercising a reasonable religious requirement, they have themselves a juicy lawsuit. I have no problem at all if the company required the folks to pucnh out when they leave to pray so they are off company time - this is a reasonable counter offer.

My comparison to smoking was to demonstrate that people have and do leave their posts all of the time to take a 5-10 minute break to feed their habit. This was tolerated for decades with almost zero objection. Hospitals have banned this practice as to promote health for their patients who may have to walk through clouds of smoke to get to their appointments.

Roxane: "Employers do not have to accomodate unreasonable religious practices."

King: You are right, so if an employer can offer up reasons as to why accomodating such a request is unreasonable then they have the right to do so. For example, if these 60 people requested that all cafeteria food be prepared Hallal that would be compltely unreasonable and understandably denied. If there were 250 Muslim employees out of say, 400 people, making the Hallal request may in fact be reasonable. Its all relative and subject to court challenge if needed.

Once again, your hatred or ignorance of a religion matters not in the eyes of the US law. You wann burn a flag? Go ahead, its your right to do so. You want to pracitce Satanism? Great, you can here. You wanna be a Muslim? Welcome.

I suspect that if you checked with the companies that hired the Muslims, you'd find that they had no idea about Muslim religious practices.

Not Dhimmitude, just ignorance of the facts.

So, they were hired, and THEN the demands began.

It's like a company dress code. If one is established, new hires make their own choice of applying for work at that company. But, if a company implements a dress code after folks have been hired...

In this case, it's a matter of 'reasonable accommodation'.

I'm not a lawyer, and don't know what a 'reasonable accommodation' consists of.

I should think the goal here, is to promote the Dell situation and this one to the general population, so that other employers are well informed before this happens to them.

So, what's the best way to get this out to the masses?

PRCS: "So, what's the best way to get this out to the masses"

King: Get what out to the masses?

Sorry King, an employer does not have to accomodate any unreasonable religious practice and leaving your work station five times a day to pray is unreasonable. Officially smoking is being banned at hospitals because it's considered a bad health practice. The other reason is because it effects productivity, people who are constantly on break smoking are not at their stations working.Other workers also have to cover for them which also effects productivity. Employers simply will not hire muslims if their presence effects productivity and the company's bottom line. CAIRs press conference and demands will lead to more unemployment for muslims.What employers will learn from this episode is not to hire muslims.

American and Japanese workers have high productivity which fuels the American and Japanese economies. Islamic countries lag far behind because of their poor work habits and low productivity.

KingOfTalkingCr@p is at it again. There should be no need for a law to force a business to pander to third world superstitions and yes, people do whine about smokers taking off throughout the day for smoke breaks.

King Tolerance is a great tolerator of irrationality. The USA tolerates practices & beliefs, but not absolutely. Satanists are tolerated, until they start stealing animals and slaughtering them, or until they start kidnapping humans and mutilating or sacrificing them.

Cults are tolerated in the USA, but a business is not obligated to allow them to practice every aspect of their cult on the job, if some aspects of their cult interfere with the work.

Dell is a bigoted company. Dell fired their white guy spokesperson because he got caught with a little weed. What if their spokesperson was a brown girl, she would be applauded by the lib’rals as being a strong independent feminist and Dell would be scorned in the press for being intolerant if they dared fire her for such a minor offense, but since it was a white boy, case closed, no aclu rushing to his defense as they would for the browney (muslim), the hypocrisy and double standard and the agenda of the liberals is as transparent as air.

I wonder where King Tolerance draws the line: how old does a cult have to be to be a "respectable" cult? 1000 years old? 100 years old? 50 years old? Where does one draw the line, and why?

I could create a cult today, and one year later, have 500 converts, and my respectable one-year-old cult could mandate that during every work day, all members of my cult must take 12 breaks each lasting 15 minutes (= 3 hours out of every day) during which they must, according to our respectable ritual, turn on loud rock music within the confines of the work-space (which has become "sacralized" by our theology) and dance and throw 57 large glass objects at each cardinal point on the compass.

I'm glad there are people like King Tolerance who will fight for the right of my cult to practice their respectable traditions (even if only one year old) in the work place.

How long does it take to do the prayers? Remember it's not just praying that eats up time. It's the ritual ablutions beforehand.

It probably takes 15 to 20 minutes. So 15 to 20 minutes out of each work day, say three times a day (the early morning and late evening prayers probably do not fall within a normal workday) -- that is 45 minutes to an hour the employer is losing every single day. Not to mention the costs of the functional loss of an office or room set aside for prayer -- which would be a big strain for a smaller company to pay rent for office or factory space it can't use for business purposes.

Muslim employees should be required to forego their lunch hour to make up for the lost time, and they should provide their own prayer space and religious accoutrements, not expect it to be provided by the employer. (That means praying alone in your own office or work cubicle, not en masse in a specially provided room, and bringing your ablution water in a Thermos, not using the bathroom sink to soak your feet in and disgusting the other employees.) If you don't have your own office or cubicle to pray in, get another job. Also, prayers should not be made out loud, they should be made internally, so as not to disturb other workers. That seems fair.

I wonder how many of them would insist on all this "special treatment" if they had to pay for it themselves?

King,

Don't be so stupid.

I should think the goal here, is to promote the Dell situation and this one to the general population, so that other employers are well informed before this happens to them.

THIS IS F*&KING RIDICULOUS!!!

NO ONE. I MEAN NO ONE is infringing on there relegious rights. No one is saying they can't pray to the moon god, there saying I'm not going to pay you to pray to the moon god and where not going to stop production in order for you to pray to the moon god or his profit(MHRH){May he rot in hell}. Due it on your lunch break or leave, or better yet move back to Somalia and express your civil rights. It pisses me off they probably got religious assylum from the US or refugee displacement through that BS UN resolution that started over 50 years ago and is slowley destroying the rest of the civilized world with the influx of rag heads.

I work at IBM where at our Rochester, Minnisota plant we are good little dhimminis and let the Islamic employees have their prayer rooms and their foot washing facilities. This was trumpeted at our latest Diversity Meetings as a wonderful example of promoting understanding. Considering Celestica and parts of Selectron are IBM spinoffs it does not surprise me in the least.

Roxane: "Sorry King, an employer does not have to accomodate any unreasonable religious practice"

King: I already said they have the right o prove what is unreasonable in their eyes and have their say in court.

Roxane: "leaving your work station five times a day to pray is unreasonable"

King: You are showing your ignorance of Islam here and basing your opinion on this ignorance. For the devout Muslim, prayer is mandated 5 times a day. The standard work shift is 8 hours, not 24 hours. First prayer is upon rising, there is another before bed. This would leave a maximum of 3 prayer times during the day, possibly two of them being at work.

Roxane: "Sorry King, an employer does not have to accomodate any unreasonable religious practice"

King: I already said they have the right o prove what is unreasonable in their eyes and have their say in court.

Roxane: "leaving your work station five times a day to pray is unreasonable"

King: You are showing your ignorance of Islam here and basing your opinion on this ignorance. For the devout Muslim, prayer is mandated 5 times a day. The standard work shift is 8 hours, not 24 hours. First prayer is upon rising, there is another before bed. This would leave a maximum of 3 prayer times during the day, possibly two of them being at work.

KingOfTalkingCr@p, it does not matter if it is once a day or ten times a day. A business should be under no legal obligation to pander to people's petty superstitions.

"You wanna burn a flag? Go ahead, its your right to do so. You want to pracitce Satanism? Great, you can here. You wanna be a Muslim? Welcome."
-- from a posting above

No, not everything is a "right" in this country. The guarantees of the First and Fourteenth Amendments (the 14th applies to what states do, the 1st to the Federal government) are limits on governmental action. Many private employers have, it is true, had their activities regulated by laws which are said to derive from Congress's power under the Commerce Clause. Even a tenuous connection (such as deeming paper cups at a local barbecue restaurant part of the flow of interstate commerce) can be enough.

But private employers are not in every way the same thing as governments, state and federal. Furthermore, even if the government cannot punish you (for, say, setting fire to a flag) private parties can take careful note, and make judgments, and then act, accordingly.

What is to prevent me from refusing to buy goods made by Muslims, rugs sold by Muslims, taxicabs driven by Muslims? What if I, and millions of others, made clear that we would be sure not to buy from those who make the large-scale presence of Muslims in this country easier? What if the economic loss to those making that presence easier were far greater than whatever gain they hoped to achieve?

And why would an employer, if he were now to be put on notice that Muslim employees are an added expense -- the cost of letting them have a place to pray, letting them go away several times every day, right in the middle of work, to remove their shoes, perform their wudu, find and enroll their prayer rugs, and then perform those prostrations -- continue to employ Muslims when a purely economic decision, the same one which would apply to anyone else who had to: 1) leave the place of work 2) remove shoes 3) perform ablutions which require water 4) find and unroll and aim meccawards a prayer rug and 5) repeatedly prostrate oneself while, with one's fellows, uttering various phrases that would tend to disrupt the other workers not so participating, or so believing.

Again, the only real solution is for Muslims to drop the demand, or to be hired only by fellow Muslims (who will then swallow the economic loss in a spirit of religious devotion). Or drop the country. Possibly the last is the best solution, for all concerned.

If they are fired based on exercising a reasonable religious requirement, they have themselves a juicy lawsuit. I have no problem at all if the company required the folks to pucnh out when they leave to pray so they are off company time - this is a reasonable counter offer.
Posted by KT

What is "reasonable religious requirement?" The Islamic world is an antediluvean, stagnated, third-world cesspit precisely because of Islam's ritualistic rigors and because muslims spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about Judgement Day. If grovelling to allah won them any
merits in the eyes of their merciless deity, it would be somewhat understandable. But it is nothing more than a form of mind control, a continuous reinforcement of medieval mandates that are antithetical to progress and fecundity.

Why should Western industry and business cater to the practices that have kept the Islamic world in a perpetual state of stultification? If the followers of every religious belief demanded time out for religious practice, the West would find itself in the same miserable quagmire as dar-al-Islam. Do you know of any similar demands made by people of other religions? Probably not, because religion does not belong in the workplace any more than it belongs in the government. Sure, let these ignorant Somalis practice the religion that was forcibly imposed upon their ancestors by the sword, but let them do it on their own time.

If American employers are smart, they will avoid hiring muslims and spare themselves the inevitable grief that follows. Behold the consequences of trying to help the poor, oppressed, persecuted souls of the third world. Their gratitude is heartwarming. They don't want much, just a complete overhaul of the way business is conducted in America to accomodate the demands of their cult.

Sorry for the double clutch above.....

Metaxy: "Satanists are tolerated, until they start stealing animals and slaughtering them, or until they start kidnapping humans and mutilating or sacrificing them."

King: Oh, you mean when they start breaking the law. Right, if anyone steals animals and slaughters them or kidnaps humans they are criminals. Your point?

Metaxy: "Cults are tolerated in the USA, but a business is not obligated to allow them to practice every aspect of their cult on the job, if some aspects of their cult interfere with the work."

King: As I've said, he law says employess have the right to ask for reasonable accomodations and employers have the right to challenge this. Your thoughts about the religion are irrelevant. Is being irrelevant what's troubling you here?

PRCS: "I should think the goal here, is to promote the Dell situation and this one to the general population, so that other employers are well informed before this happens to them."

King: I'll let your stupid remark slide for now and continue with civil discussion.

So your issue here is letting the "masses" know that a group of Somali Muslims using their right to practice their religion is too much for you to bear? Is this accurate?

Once again, its the reasonability thats at stake here, not your opinion on Islam or its follower's requirmements.

KingofTalkingCr@p tries to make this is asingle issue. It is not a single issue. The subject may be islam but the issue is much broader as has been repeatedly pointed out to you. A business should be under no legal obligation to pander to superstitious rituals of every third world cult that washes up on these shores.

Susanp: "Do you know of any similar demands made by people of other religions? Probably not, because religion does not belong in the workplace any more than it belongs in the government."

King; Funny you should ask! Not sure if you are an American, but we've been under seige by radical Christians who seem to think that the Ten Commandments belong in court houses and state buildings. This has gone all the way to the SCOTUS. We currently have public school districts being forced to teach intellgient design to appease the Chrstian right's opposition to evolution. We have Christian organizations working non-stop to allow PUBLIC schools to have prayer in classrooms. We have had effective Christian sponsored bans on gay rights and reproductive rights are constantly in jeopardy. Last but not least, WE NOW HAVE CHRISTIAN PHARMICISTS REFUSING TO FILL PRESCRIPTIONS FOR BIRTH CONTROL PILLS BASED ON THEIR OWN RELIGIOUS BELIEFS AND STATES PASSING LAWS TO ALLOW THIS PRACTICE.

I think I'ver answered your question and exposed more hypocrisy.

King: I already said they have the right o prove what is unreasonable in their eyes and have their say in court.

Don't you get it. There won't be any lawsuits because employers will wise up and not even hire muslims.The bottom line is all that matters in business not some foolish religious practice. Employers can hire Hindus, Atheists, Jews, Christians, Buddists, Mormans ect all without the added costs, lost productivity and inconvenience associated with hiring muslims.Good luck trying to prove you been denied employment because you are muslim.

King,

Practice your religion in the privacy of your own home or mosque. Don't start dragging the prayer mat out in the workplace. Employers cannot was expected to tolerate whatever religious mumbo-jumbo you care to come up with. Sorry, I don't have the time or patience in my place of business for your spiritual development. Do that at home.

f.g.

If muslims want to pray on the job then why don’t they start their own company and pray all they want? Are they too stupid to do that? All they do is leech off some white man that built a successful company. Fu**** vultures.

That should have read "Employers cannot be expected..."

Roxane: "Don't you get it. There won't be any lawsuits because employers will wise up and not even hire muslims."

King: You just defined discrimination which is illegal in the US. Its clear who does not "get it."

f.g.: "Practice your religion in the privacy of your own home or mosque."

King; I agree with you 100%. Let us all read the law together once again:

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 requires an employer to accommodate an individual's religious practices unless the company can demonstrate that the accommodation causes an "undue hardship."

If a global company is going to hire a broad base of people it must be ready to accomodate a broad base of needs as long as the needs can be proven to be reasonable. In this case, it is perfectly reasonable to allow people a few minutes, off the clock, to go and pray. It is also eqyually reasonable to require that the time missed be made up, or production quotas be maintained. Our opinion of this matters not. If a Muslim feels that they are willing to lose some time on the clock or stay later int he day to make up lost time so they can pray, that's their business.

Then again, I can tolerate different ideas, ays of life and religious beliefs, so I am able to see it this way...

King,

This will be my second, and final response to you.

PRCS: "I should think the goal here, is to promote the Dell situation and this one to the general population, so that other employers are well informed before this happens to them."

So your issue here is letting the "masses" know that a group of Somali Muslims using their right to practice their religion is too much for you to bear? Is this accurate?

No. It is not accurate.

Were I an employer, previously uninformed about the impact that Muslim religious beliefs and practices could potentially have on my company's productivity, I could, being now enlightened, make an informed decision about whether or not to hire a Muslim into my company, and what shift I might offer.

Uninformed employers make uninformed decisions.

"You are showing your ignorance of Islam here..."
posted by the infamous KT

Well if that isn't the kettle calling the pot black! KT you are the most ignorant poster on this board concerning islam. Which is why you are so despised here...Along with your arrogance of course!

*sigh* KingOfTalkingCr@p is like the energizer bunny. He doen't know when to stop.

Hey says;In this case, it is perfectly reasonable to allow people a few minutes, off the clock, to go and pray. It is also eqyually reasonable to require that the time missed be made up, or production quotas be maintained.
As an atheist, non smoker and a business man, not to me it isn't.

He says; Our opinion of this matters not. If a Muslim feels that they are willing to lose some time on the clock or stay later int he day to make up lost time so they can pray, that's their business.

(Our opinion matters plenty.) But it doesn't stop there. A special room may be required, a seperate fridge/microwave/kitchen/toilet etc etc.

If religious people need to pray throughout the day. They can do so at the allotted breaktimes.

"King: I'll let your stupid remark slide for now and continue with civil discussion."

Posted by: KingTolerance at July 6, 2005 02:26 PM

Er... ...when did KT's civil discussion commence? Both the nickname and the royal pronounciations style of presenting opinions are grandiose and condescending.

If religious people need to pray throughout the day. They can do so at the allotted breaktimes.

Exactly. Nothing further needs to be done. If you can't do whatever you need to do during a scheduled break then you should wait until you get home. Special rooms, times, etc. shouldn't be required by any reasonable person.

Crusader: "KT you are the most ignorant poster on this board concerning islam."

King: Well, I don't fling pseudo expertise of Islam, I don't misuse Arabic words and I don't accept radicalsim for an entire relgion. If that makes me "ignorant" in your eyes that means I got it about right.

Crusdaer: "Which is why you are so despised here...Along with your arrogance of course!"

King: Of course! My arrogance is exactly what provokes passionate debate with people I find comically oblivious. Once again, I am quite happy to be despised among circles whom I hold such low esteem which comes through as arrogance on your end. Besides, coming from a guy who calls himself a "Crusader" I take your comment with a pinch of salt.

PRCS: "I could, being now enlightened, make an informed decision about whether or not to hire a Muslim into my company, and what shift I might offer."

King: OK, this is clearer now. So, while you are trying to discriminate, what criteria will you use in order to deny a suspected Muslim a job or shift in your company? Their name? Appearance? Skin color? Clothes? Will you come right out and illegally ask them what religion they practice? Can you see just what kind of can of worms you opened up?? You described a discriminatory practice and would deserve to be slapped with a law-suit with your "enlightening" knowledge.

TooBad: "As an atheist, non smoker and a business man, not to me it isn't [reasonable].

King: OK, you've done everything except parade in high heels to get my attention but now that you've formulated a basic opinion, I will respond.

According to the law, you being atheist, non-smoking and a business man is 100% irrelevant. If you can prove that the request being made is clearly unreasonable, you've got the right to make your case and offer your reasonable counter requests, like praying off the clock, for example.

TooBad: "But it doesn't stop there. A special room may be required, a seperate fridge/microwave/kitchen/toilet etc etc."

King: What you suggest here is far beyond the realm of reason and would most likely be struck down. If such extra accomodations are needed, they can be provided by the employess themselves or simply denied based on unreasonability.

I've worked with many Muslims who simply went off and found a quiet spot, did their prayers descretly, and came back in 10 minutes. What's the big F-ing deal?

I am 100% secular and a very strong church/state separatist. I am also a very strong civil rights supporter and a supporter of tolerance and religious freedom.

It is not a "few minutes" for prayers, as KT says. It is at least 45 minutes to an hour per day cumulative, five days per week. This is a loss of about 5 hours per week in productivity that an employer must pay for, over and above the other inconveniences and expenses that devout Muslims would cause their employers and co-workers (halal food preparation, saperate refrigerators and eating utensils, dedicated prayer rooms and ablution facilities, and all the other "special treatments" that would be demanded).

A most unfair burden to place on employers and co-workers. Meetings would have to be coordinated around the prayer times. Co-workers would be discommoded, possibly forced to come in early or stay late to accommodate the need for meetings to be scheduled around prayer times. Parents might have to pay for extra daycare to accommodate the unusual meeting periods. All because of the demands of Muslim co-workers.

I'd be pissed off if I had to pay for extra daycare every now and then because of Muslim co-workers, certainly. As I would be if I had to schedule my own breaks and lunch periods at inconvenient times in order to "cover" for a Muslim co-worker's prayer times.

Doesn't sound like a very harmonious or productive workplace to me. What kind of extra "benefits" would Muslim employees offer employers and co-workers to offset the many disadvantages they would bring to the workplace?

I can't think of any.

KingOfTalkingCr@p glibly goes on about the law and what is reasonable and what is relevant. Who the f*k put you in charge of what is reasonable, relevant and who's opinion matters ?

As an atheist, there is nothing reasonable to me about taking time out from work to perform a superstitious ritual. Why the government is able to make laws that force a business to pander to these superstitions is a mystery and the fact that a law does exist does not make it right. Your claim of secularism flies in the face of your position which is to keep harping about laws to protect religion on the work place. It is a nonsense brought into play by radicals and fundamentalists hence CAIRs involvement.

Perhaps Christians should start opening their mouths and demanding equal time. I'm no longer in the workplace but if I was, as a catholic, I would demand equality, there would not be a catholic holy day of obligation that I would miss.There are also 40 Hours and Blessing of the Throats and also Ash Wednesday. I would really play it up. If i had to work a Sunday morning I sure as hell wouldn't come in until after Mass.If everyone stuck together on this it wouldn't be long till muslims wouldn't have their prayer times, etc.

The bottom line is that by granting preferential treatment to one group of employees, religious fanatics in this case, the other non-preferential group will feel left out.
Creating a class system if you will of two employee groups which should be equal in all workplace respects. The negative outcome will manifest itself in the non-preferential group who will begin to harbor resentment and hurt feelings and even internalize these feelings, causing pain and discomfort. The company will need to pay to bring in counselors and psychologists to help the affected group cope with this new status of being a member of the non-preferential group. This stressful situation may bring on future short and long term psychological and emotional problems. The affected employees may take their negative feelings home and abuse their family members. Surely, even someone like King Tolerance can see the danger of that and how in the spirit of equality and harmony in the workplace and at home, this must preferential accommodation to religious fanatics must be prevented at all costs.

I can see the King just doesn't get it.

Employers have the right to ask applicants about personal situations applicable to potential employment.

Some questions which come to mind are:

How will you get to work?
Do you have any physical limitations that would prevent you from performing this job?
Are there any days of the week that you would prefer not to work?
Etc.

Gentle, legal questioning, in accordance with the guidance of legal counsel.

And of course, I could keep a Qur'an right UNDER a copy of the Bible on my desk to check for reactions. An hysterical outburst would certainly influence my impression of the potential employee.

And a hijab would catch my silent attention.

Some applicants will make the cut. Some won't.

Thank you, Omar. I've really enjoyed this interview with you. I have several other applications to review for this position. I'll make my decision by the end of this week, and my secretary will be notified. You may call him next Tuesday for that decision. Thanks, and have a great day.

Will the Sunnis and Shities need seperate prayer facilities? I'd hate for a "holy Jihad" to break out on the third floor because we were insensitive to their sectarian prejudges and violence!

I've worked with many Muslims who simply went off and found a quiet spot, did their prayers descretly, and came back in 10 minutes. What's the big F-ing deal?

There wasn't a big F-ing deal until Muslims made one out of it. Can't you see that? If they would keep their mouths shut and just do their bit instead of whining and bitching it wouldn't have become an issue. Did that little fact escape you or what?

f.g.

"Construction of the sacrificial pyramid will begin in the east parking lot tomorrow. Those of you of the Aztec religion may kick your sacrifices down the steps in the east parking lot only please. The west parking lot is reserved for Mormons to baptise their dead during lunch. Muslim prayer and foot washing is to be done in the south parking garage level 3 and 4. Please note Sunnis only on level 4. The corporatee witch-doctor will be performing exorcisims the front lobby between 9 and 10 on alternate Thursdays. Bring your boss down for an old-fashioned pea-soup spitting exorcism today!"

TooBad whined: "Who the f*k put you in charge of what is reasonable, relevant and who's opinion matters ?"

King: The law.

TooBad: "As an atheist, there is nothing reasonable to me about taking time out from work to perform a superstitious ritual."

King: Then don't do it. Sit at your desk and pound out angry posts to me instead.

TooBad: "Why the government is able to make laws that force a business to pander to these superstitions is a mystery and the fact that a law does exist does not make it right."

King: And whining about it, as you are, doesn' chane it, either. Once again, the law is there to protect those who may be of different persuation, ideology or culture than you. This is clearly too much for you to handle, isn't it?

TooBad: "Your claim of secularism flies in the face of your position which is to keep harping about laws to protect religion on the work place."

King: Being a myopic individual, I can see why you think this way. My secular position is for me and my own life. Its my choice. I support other's rights to not be secular as long as they keep their religion out of laws that apply to me. It seems that US Christians are far more dangerous in church and state issues but thats for another discussion. It happens that the US has protections for people who practice religion and allow them to do so as freely as reasonably possible as long as church and state are not mixed. These laws also protect these people from people like you, who would discriminate against them based on their religion or ideology.

TooBad: "It is a nonsense brought into play by radicals and fundamentalists hence CAIRs involvement."

King: Nonesense to you, protection of rights to others.

PRCS, ah yes the ol thank you for your interest in our company bla bla we will keep your application on file for a year, feel free to check back then bla bla haha

PRCS: "a hijab would catch my silent attention.
Thank you, Omar. I've really enjoyed this interview with you. I have several other applications to review for this position."

King: Coat it any way you wish, but you are describing discriminatory hiring practice and you would be sued if caught in a pattern of it. Period.

PRCS: "And of course, I could keep a Qur'an right UNDER a copy of the Bible on my desk to check for reactions. An hysterical outburst would certainly influence my impression of the potential employee."

King: And this comment seals the bigoted, discriminatory deal. And you say I don't get it? Ha, ha ha. I won't be sued some day for discrimination my friend.

f.g. "If they would keep their mouths shut and just do their bit instead of whining and bitching it wouldn't have become an issue. Did that little fact escape you or what?"

King: "They" whine and bitch? Excuse me for pointing this out, but this entire website is nothing but whining and bitching about Muslims! I guess you are too busy partaking to notice just how you sound - like a whiny little bitch who cannot get along with the children who dress differently and eat different food.

Well,

I see the King still doesn't get it.

Gentle, legal questioning, in accordance with the guidance of legal counsel.

"Coat it any way you wish, but you are describing discriminatory hiring practice and you would be sued if caught in a pattern of it. Period."

If caught. And found guilty.

"And of course, I could keep a Qur'an right UNDER a copy of the Bible on my desk to check for reactions. An hysterical outburst would certainly influence my impression of the potential employee."

I keep good inteview notes, and I don't hire hysterical job applicants.

If the laws force these companies to set up preferential pray areas then maybe these companies should ship their factories to China like so many other companies have done. I’m sure the muslims would get preferential prayer rooms there. What’s that, no you don’t say, really? The Chinese wouldn’t let them have special prayer rooms? Well at least the Western employees wouldn’t have to tolerate their co-workers special status anymore. They wouldn’t have to put up with stepping aside while the rop’ers arrogantly march past with their swarthy heads held defiantly high with that fuc* you glint in there eyes as they make their way to their Special designated islam only areas.

Ah, tolerance has graced us again, and behooves us to be tolerant of our fellow man and his IDEOLOGIES. He is secular, but offers no roots to the morality he espouses. He can't possibly be Christian or have Christian roots because he berates Christians for having beliefs, evil beliefs that will enslave the minds of others. He, of course, grew his morality from the pure ether of existence. He defends Muslims against the malfeasance of corporate America, yet has obviously never had to defend corporate America from malfeasance. He comes here to grace us with the Ted Kennedy view of democracy and tolerance.
Let us tremble before his tolerance -- he hasn't been mugged yet.

PRCS, buy you a Brew on Broadway at 5. Signed Roses

KingOfTalkingCr@p: The law.(put him in charge)

You would have been better to ignore my comment than this poor response.

KingOfTalkingCr@p: Then don't do it. Sit at your desk and pound out angry posts to me instead.

Eh? Not only are you being glib, you are evading the actual issue. Oh, and I am not angry.

KingOfTalkingCr@p:Once again, the law is there to protect those who may be of different persuation, ideology or culture than you.

Protect them from what ? Doing their job ? Is it really being unreasonable for an employer to ask its employees to perform there superstitious rituals on their own time and around the businesses schedule ? I don't think so.

KingOfTalkingCr@p:This is clearly too much for you to handle, isn't it?
No. Where do you get the idea that it would be ?

KingOfTalkingCr@p:My secular position is for me and my own life. Its my choice. I support other's rights to not be secular as long as they keep their religion out of laws that apply to me.
And yet you are in full agreement with the right of a superstitious minority to dictate corporate policy regarding the working schedule through force of law!!! This utterly flies in the face of what you say you stand for !!! Which means you are purely here for aggrivation and provocation.

KingOfTalkingCr@p:It seems that US Christians are far more dangerous in church and state issues but thats for another discussion.

I agree.

KingOfTalkingCr@p:It happens that the US has protections for people who practice religion and allow them to do so as freely as reasonably possible as long as church and state are not mixed. These laws also protect these people from people like you, who would discriminate against them based on their religion or ideology.

Protect them from people like me ?!!!! Who is going to protect ME from the religious nuts ?!! The key point here is reasonable. I'm a reasonable guy despite what you may think. If someone wants to pray, do it at a time that fits in with the working schedule. That's all. If it can be accomodated, that is up to the business and not the government. If it can't be accomodated, feel free to look for employment at a company that may be more in tune with you superstitious practices.

KingOfTalkingCr@p: Nonesense to you, protection of rights to others.

What rights are being protected? I am not advocating taking rights away either. All I am saying is, if you feel the need to pray or perform some other superstitious mumbo jumbo ritual, understand it will be on your own time and you won't be getting paid. Am I being clear enough ?

QHTF,

O.K.

A cold, microbrewed lager, please.

Make mine a Beck's.

Good reason not to hire muslims.

And a good reason for us not to buy from firms that do hire muslims.

King Tolerance

"employess have the right to ask for reasonable accomodations and employers have the right to challenge this."

So what are you bickering & quibblings about? You agree with us. Or do you?

"Your thoughts about the religion are irrelevant."

I didn't express my thoughts about the religion. All my posts have been about whether employers have the right to limit the practices of cults in the work-place, and in relevant relation to this, the fact that Islamic ritual has more claptrap pertaining to prayer that can be unremarkably judged to interfere with and encumber the work-place, than does modern Christian prayer behavior.

TooBad wrote to KT: "This utterly flies in the face of what you say you stand for !!! Which means you are purely here for aggrivation and provocation."

No, he's not here merely for aggravation and provocation. He is a sincerely diseased Leftist. Unfortunately, we have millions in the West like him, and their irrationality may well ensure that our eventual victory against Jihadism will entail more, rather than less, mayhem & misery.

metaxy,

I'd like to agree with him on some issues, but...

I asked early in the thread, what would be the best way to make sure the Dell and Ceslestica situations are made known, so that other employers don't have to go through this down the road.

My thought is to send this threads initial article, and others, to organizations like the Small Business Administration, SCORE, and others.

Any other organizations that come to mind?

It's not that they may not already be aware of such, but that they may not.

PRCS,

I don't mean to be a pessimist, but I'd bet that if you sent copies of this thread to Western business associations, they would get passed off on special "minority rights" ombudspeople who've been trained by Karen Armstrong "sensitivity" toward Muslims -- if those individuals charged with such issues haven't themselves already been infected with the Leftist disease already long before, through the general cultural osmosis process.

Hmm.

A pretty grim assesment. But pessimism is necessary in the real world. It makes people like me work a little harder.

metaxy,

Wooh Hooh!

Earlier today, I sent a list of questions, based upon what I've learned here at JW/DW (including your posts), for the New Zealand TV3 60Minutes show to ask their MP Choudhary next time around.

And got the following response:

Dear Bob,

Thank you for your e.mail regarding Monday night's 60 Minutes story "Godzone". I have forwarded your letter to the production team as I know they will be interested in your comments.

We appreciate your taking the time to write.

Yours sincerely,

Christine Laery

Perhaps they're not quite fully immersed in the PC tank, yet.

Now I dont by any means agree with alot of Kings ideas, but in certain companies people are only allowed to smoke during their break..and the smoking thing is a good point ( I AM a smoker ). At my job I am able to go and smoke as I please and anyone else can leave their desk and take a quick break...in this scenerio you cannot say a Muslim cant pray when he needs to. Yes I am a government worker...if you can call it work. If a company allows smokers to smoke as they please it must allow others to take special breaks..including Muslim prayer. Also if they provide smokers with a special place to smoke...then they must provide others with needs a place also. I do not side with Muslims, but the law is the law.

It is a very debatable issue and points can be taken from both sides...thats what makes America so great.

People have been debating the smoking issue at the workplace for years..even where I work..and I'm sure this prayer issue will be debated just as dilligently. Some places ban smoking on company grounds and some companies allow you to smoke only on breaks. I think this prayer issue will work out the same, but then again smoking isnt protected as a religion...unless I decide to make it one :)...I would have alot of followers.

Anyone who has read any of my posts knows I do not by any means support what Islam stands for...I believe it is a racist ideology, but that is my opinion and not the law. So unless the law changes every religion will be protected as my own is, unless it causes harm to others.

Mr. King Tolerance, are you willing to tolerate a cult that practices as this one called Islam practices?

Courtesy: Sword of the Prophet and World Net Daily

The Koran sanctions pillage, looting, ransom, and the rape of captive women as an incentive to join in jihad or "holy war"

Mohammed kept one-fifth of all spoils of war for himself

The Koran allows a man to have up to four wives -- at any one time. He can divorce a wife by simply saying so 3 times

Mohammad had as many as 25 wives. One was six when they married; he was 54. He consummated the marriage when she was 9

At least 27 people were murdered on Mohammed's orders

Mohammed allowed temporary marriage "for three nights" or more, so that soldiers in the field could "marry" prostitutes

The Koran assures the Muslim the right to own slaves by purchasing them or as a bounty of war. Mohammad had dozens

Almsgiving and mercy is commended in Islam -- but the beneficiaries have to be Muslims only

In Islam, the definition of what is "right" or "just" is not fixed, but changeable by divine decree -- enabling the most henous sins and crimes to be declared "the will of Allah"

The joys and glories of the Islamic "paradise" are tangible and sensual and include sex with virgins -- and young boys

As Mohammad progressed from visionary and teacher to warlord and ruler, his style and message became more depraved, violent and intolerant. It is these later "revelations" that are considered definitive by Islamic authorities when they conflict with earlier ones often cited for Western consumption

The Crusades were a belated military response to three centuries of Muslim aggression against Christian lands and peoples

Islam divides the world into the House of Islam (where Islam rules) and the House of War (where it doesn't). The two are permanently at war; there may be temporary truces, but peace will come only upon the completion of global conquest

When Muslims are a minority community, the Koran permits them to adopt a peaceful attitude to deceive their neighbors, until they feel strong enough to dispense with the pretense

The massacres perpetrated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger in sheer numbers than the Holocaust

Muslim persecution of Christians has caused suffering and death for millions over 13 centuries -- and continues today

The myth of Islam's "tolerance" of religious minorities contradicts its teaching, history, and present reality

Islam's "golden age" was parasitic on the Christian cultures and peoples it conquered, and ended when it "killed the host"

In 1993, Saudi Arabia's supreme religious authority declared that the world is flat, and that anyone who disagrees is an infidel to be punished

Like Communism, Islam cannot foster prosperity, and is always reliant on plunder or unearned wealth (e.g., from oil)

Islam recognizes no distinction between temporal and divine authority; the only "legitimate" government is a theocracy

America's "ally" Saudi Arabia remains the most intolerant Islamic regime in the world, where the practice of any religion besides Islam is as strictly prohibited as in Mohammed's day

The first imam to deliver a Muslim prayer for the U.S. House of Representatives in 1991, declared in 1997 that Muslims will eventually elect the president and replace the constitutional government with an Islamic caliphate

Prickzilla, he knows all that. He is a muslim.

PRCS, Good luck, and I like your take on pessimism.

Pocadon, the point here is not whether businesses should not be allowed to accomodate Muslim rituals if they think those rituals don't hamper the productivity & morale of the work environment -- the point is whether particular businesses that DO feel Muslim rituals hamper the productivity & morale of their work environment should be allowed to restrict those Muslim rituals.

Our litmus test of whether businesses should be allowed to determine what hampers their own work environment should not be (as I'm sure you'll agree) some vague overall "respect" for Islamic culture no matter what: it should be up to each business to decide.

Of course, in the USA, we have evolved complex laws about this with a complex inter-relationship between the Federal government, State governments, and private businesses -- to ensure that private businesses are not capriciously or out of certain types of illegal discrimination stepping on the toes of certain classes of people. But part of this complexity involves the fact that the USA does not want to become a totalitarian gaurantor of justice from the top down, and so a certain significant degree of latitude is still accorded private businesses.

In the coming years, it will depend on legal activism and social education whether private businesses which have legitimate gripes against Muslim workers will not be penalized for the sake of multi-culturalist "sensitivity" as a factor that trumps all other concerns.

Prickzilla (and others),

Interesting bit of history:

"But it is objected that the people of America may perhaps choose representatives who have no religion at all, and that pagans and Mahometans [Muslims] may be admitted into offices.... But it is never to be supposed that the people of America will trust their dearest rights to persons who have no religion at all, or a religion materially different from their own..."

-- 1788, Supreme Court Justice James Iredell, appointed to the U.S. Supreme Court by President George Washington.

Another one:

"The real object of the [First] Amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance Mahometanism [Islam], or Judaism, or infidelity by prostrating [nullifying] Christianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects and to prevent any national ecclesiastical establishment which should give to a hierarchy [of one denomination] the exclusive patronage of the national government."

-- 1833, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, appointed to the Court by President James Madison in 1811.

Throw all of the Muslims on 3rd shift

PRCS, you can write at: http://nodhimmitude.blogspot.com/
re: DC Watson for [public office]!
Sorry I missed you earlier.

King Tut Tut-

Finally you say something sensible!

Your initial noting of the similarity between the practice of Islam and tobacco smoking is apt. Comparing the Muslim faith with a poisonous and vacuous addiction is the best analogy you've offered so far. Bravo!

Meanwhile, employers always find pre-legal ways to avoid hiring slackers, troublemakers, nuisances and nit-pickers at work. It is 'discrimination' of the sensible, human-nature sort: enlightened self-interest.

As you, or anyone with brains or tastebuds, would 'discriminate' when buying an apple to make sure it is without bruises or when purchasing a car to check to see if oil is leaking from the crankcase.

Such militant Muslim employees are apparently more trouble than they're worth. Especially when they start disrupting the flow of the job with their private beliefs. If companies begin to put up with this intrusive silliness -of separate prayer areas, cultic appurtenances, specific times-off, etc. -then the 'camel's BIG nose is slowly getting under the edge of the corporate tent'. And begin to waste so much energy that the business would suffer.

If you allow this irrelevancy in the economic realm, then next it will be kowtowing to the demands of the Wiccan cult, and the dancing Moonies, and the snake handlers, and anyone else applying for and gaining a job. ALL would have the right to petition for their 'faith' to be given equal status, privileges and 'respect'.

The result: chaos, -and less and less work getting done.

Maybe this is why the Islamic world is not known for producing anything of note. (No Sony; No IBM; No Airbus; No Philips; No Genentech; No Boeing; No Microsoft; No DuPont; No AT&T: No Bayer; No Pfizer; No Sanofi; No Apple, etc.)

Too busy looking backwards to move forward.

NOTICE TO ALL EMPLOYERS:

Zen Buddhists consider work a form of prayer.

(Put that in your resume and smoke it.)

Chip, chip, chip away at productivity and efficiency. Companies that hire Muslims and are required to provide them this paid loss time will soon go under.

Obviously this tiny minority expects that all of Western civilization should adopt the rhythm of Islam.

You know what? I'm just so through with this Muslim fanaticism. Just fire them on the spot for whatever reason you can come up with, inefficiency, general down sizing, or what have you.

You know what? I'm just so through with this Muslim fanaticism. Just fire them on the spot for whatever reason you can come up with, inefficiency, general down sizing, or what have you.

no production line would stop so people can smoke, there are designated breaks, determined with the efficiency of the production line in mind.

the reason the arab world is a mind-numbing wasteland is because they have ZERO work-ethic. as mentioned above ad-nauseum, you can't stay in business with people head-bangin' their prayer-rugs for that substantial a portion of their shift.

and if,(as if), the company sucked up to these ridiculous demands, are the muslims going to show their gratitude and loyalty to their infidel-owned and operated place of employment by being extra productive and cultivating a "team spirit", and announcing to the muslim world that infidels are good and caring people, deserving of respect and peaceful coexistence?

when flying monkeys come out of my kiester.

Given the broad corporate drive to improve productivity, you'd have to think that somewhere out there HR types are meeting with lawyers to draft better employment contracts to put a lid on this absurd abuse of western tolerance and accommodation.

Hello to all, this is my first post.

I know many of you here dislike King Tolerance, but I think he's right on this particular issue.
Asking for a few minutes off the clock hasn't been proved unreasonable, so I don't see any problem with making those accomodations.

I agree with those of you who are concerned that Muslims or members of other religions/cults would keep demanding more unreasonable changes as time goes by. But the civil rights act doesn't say we need to cater to every whim.

I agree that Islam teaches violence and that too many people deny the true underlying cause of terrorism.I want to do whatever I can to change that.
At the same time,we run the risk of being just as bigoted and ignorant as muslim extremists if we cannot wisely choose our battles.

Tolerance; No it is not unreasonable to ask for a few minutes off the clock for any reason, going to the dentist, pick up your dry cleaning, going for a smoke, a prayer a cup of tea whatever. Ask away. But at the employers discretion it can be granted or denied. However, an employer should not be obligated by law to provide special allowances no matter what the reason.

Tolerancewithinreason,

"Asking for a few minutes off the clock hasn't been proved unreasonable, so I don't see any problem with making those accomodations."

The crucial point here is not whether some businesses should have the right to allow Muslims to indulge their rituals in the work-environment: the point is whether we will permit SOME businesses to deny that right to Muslims if those particular businesses deem that such rituals interfere with the work environment & productivity -- or will we, out of some general multi-culturalist "sensitivity" favoring Muslims, create some blanket protection for Muslims and tie the hands of ALL businesses from exercizing their right to deem what interferes with work, and what doesn't?