Faith leaders in Leeds shocked, shocked by police raids

"our muslim colleagues are very disappointed and sad...."

well cry me a friggin river.

how disappointed and sad do you think the kin of the dead and maimed victims of mohammed's butchers are

"in walks the village idiot, and his face is all aglow, he's been up all night listening to mohammed's radio" hat tip to the late Warren Zevon

There seem to be almost no churches in the UK that campaign against the persecution of Christians in Muslim countries. They don't seem to realize or appear to care that this spirit of tolerance and multiculty is not being reciprocated in Islamic nations.

Welcome to the BBQ! Would you like your Christian medium or well roasted? How about a slice of Babtist or Methodist?
Got a slice of boy-scout - loins ready to go, how about it?

Preachers, treachers....

Now this is why christianity sucks.

Christians (with rare exceptions) feel that they have to play nicey nice with everyone, even with those who would willingly kill them.

Love your enemies, turn the other cheek etc. By following this literally, this will end in their own extermination.

Maybe it's part of the "suffering is good for you" ethos, that is part of christianity. Well I don't want to suffer.

They just don't get it. Islam continues to hold tight to the principle of jihad which disdains non-Muslims and calls for them to be humiliated and subdued. Although some Muslims steadfastly hold to non-violence, they all believe in the inferiority of "the rest."

Why don't Christian leaders understand this? Why don't they exhort so-called "moderates" to repudiate jihad and dhimmitude? Their shock is an example of denial, ignorance and stupidity.

Deluded fools. No wonder church pews are near empty.

Mohammedanism didn't exist when Christ was around. Wonder what he would have said? Turn the other cheek? Even if the other guy hacks your head off, rapes your wife and enslaves your kids?

A few observations in no particular order.
My father in law rang me last night. He told me of an article in The Church Times which unfortunately I cannot give you a link to in the on line edition. However the article seems to be quite specific about the dangers in Islam; he quoted to me (as if it was news to me) the statistics of how many muslims support al quaida and OBL. And how even a "tiny minority of extremists" amounts to quite a lot of people capable of doing damage. He is a retired Anglican priest, he spent the war in Egypt and the Sudan and some of his earliest parishes were in this area. You will understand if I don't say where and I don't say when. He had some scathing things to say, more scathing than I had heard him say before. To wit "they think its a religion like any other, like they have got Anglicans without Hymns Ancient and Modern, they don't realise that they have taken a viper to their bosom"

****

I was at a service in a west London church 2 days before the first bombings. The preacher asked what we thought were the main dangers facing the world today? Islam was high on his list.

****

I first came upon the work of the Barnabas Fund for persecuted Christians from leaflets in my own church where we have some converts from Islam who I know have not had an easy time. http://www.barnabasfund.org/ Revd Dr Patrick and Mrs Sookhdeo are brave and resourceful people. The site is worth a look.

Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, indeed the Barnabas Fund website says such,
" We believe that even in the face of violence and persecution Christians should turn the other cheek and respond with love to those who persecute them. As an organization concerned with events in the Islamic world we hold that it is possible to be deeply critical of elements of the Islamic faith, which impinge on human rights and religious liberty, without hating Muslims or wishing to see violence done against them. We reject utterly any implication that our literature stirs up hatred against Muslims or any attempt by any individual or organization to use it for that purpose.
That does not mean that we have to be doormats, must not defend ourselves and must not fight for our own beliefs and what is right.

****

As a child my husband shot the then Bishop of Wakefield with a cap gun. He wishes he had the current idiot (above) in his sights now.

Unfortunately many Anglicans in the UK are unofficial members of Hamas. It would be silly to expect a non-Dhimmi response to the global jihad from (what's left) of the church in the UK. Not even a bomb in Westminster Abbey would stop them from worrying about Muslim sensitivities.

Granny Weatherwax-

You brought on a fit of giggles with that last comment, it sounded just like a bit out of an Evelyn Waugh story.

Thanks for a nice start to Sunday morning.

Now this is why christianity sucks.

Christians (with rare exceptions) feel that they have to play nicey nice with everyone, even with those who would willingly kill them.

Love your enemies, turn the other cheek etc. By following this literally, this will end in their own extermination.

Maybe it's part of the "suffering is good for you" ethos, that is part of christianity. Well I don't want to suffer.

Posted by: Voltaire at July 24, 2005 09:08 AM

I am a Christian and I have to agree with this statement. I think we should be fighting this enemy not hugging him. I have a problem finding a church to go to because it seems most are lacking in common sense.

If someone comes into my house and kills my family or rapes my wife, I dont think God would want me turing the other cheek. Christians dont seem to understand that in war there are different rules. Why do they think self defense is such a bad thing??? Like I said....complete lack of common sense.

Turn the other cheek, certainly. But plug them full of lead first.

Most mainline Protestant and Catholic Churches do not preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the U.K. All they preach about is unity with their muslim neighbours and good works. It's no wonder they don't preach the gospel. They don't want to offend the muslims, and yet Jesus said "they will hate you because of me".Christianity and islam are not compatible and never will be. They must accept the true face of islam that it is evil.

I know I am probably a bad Christian, but I will not lay down and let anyone kill my family. It's just not going to happen." King Tolerance" can call me a hypocrite all he pleases, I will leave it to G-d to judge me for what I have to do.
I think of how Peter drew his sword in the Garden of Gethsemane and fought for Jesus. Jesus did condemn what Peter did, but Peter was still used by G-d to spread the Gospel. Peter also denied Christ three times, and Jesus forgave him and used him. There are lessons for the Church here, we shouldn't bow our knee to Satan and turn our cheek to Satan. The book of Revelation speaks of the coming battles. There are plenty of Christians who recognize who we are fighting.

Some words and phrases start out innocently enough, and then something happens to them -- they are taken away by strangers and lured into doing the bidding of some crazed cult -- and though outwardly they may seem to have retained their inner essential innocence, they have not. One cannot look at them, hear them, in the same way ever again. One cannot, if one has retained one's own sanity throughout, bear even to be near them.

And those who not only hear those words and phrases, pass them on, make use of them, seriously, can no longer be taken seriously themselves. Seriously.

Such a word is "diversity."

Such a phrase is "international community."

And, in the Dictionary of Words and Phrases That Are Deeply To Be Distrusted that I am compiling, there is a new addition, saccharine and big-eyed, like those disgustingly gemutlich Hummel figurines, the cute little girl and the cute little boy (both in lederhosen, and looking as if they are fresh from trampinig Hitler-youth-like through the heather), and he is shown giving her, his little madchen, a bouquet of wildflowers.

That new addition, the verbal equivalent of a Hummel figurine, as sappy and sentimental and silly and in the end even more dangerous (artistically, kitsch is to Fascism near allied, ), to appear in the up-dated edition of the Dictionary of Words and Phrases That Are Deeply To Be Mistrusted, is:

"interfaith"

in all of its many uses:

"Interfaith dialogue," "interfaith ralies," "interfaith discussion groups," "interfaith candle-light vigils."

There is room in that dictioniary for many new entries. There is no end to this.

Voltaire,

It wasn't always that way: remember the Crusades. The same criticism against Christians that Leftists are fond to raise (that they used to be so violent with the Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch-burnings, etc.) might become our saving grace, if it could only be resurrected.

The main reason why so many Christians are not taking Islam seriously: PC LEFTISM HAS BECOME SOCIOPOLITICALLY DOMINANT IN THE WEST. It has infected ever area of life, every institution -- academe, politics, news media, entertainment industry, and Christian churches & Christian society.

I had a light bulb moment on the subject of turning the other cheek and managed to find the passage I was thinking off. I have had to copy type it (excuse typos). It is from a book called Son of God, which accompanied the BBC (yes them)programme of the same name some years ago. It is written by Rev. Angela Tilby an Anglican priest ( I make no apologies, it's what I am familiar with)and tutor. Hugh will like it as his favourite Dennis Potter features.

*****
Jesus’ teaching on non-violence is so well known that it has become part of everyday language. “Turning the other cheek “or “going the extra mile” (Matthew 5:39-42) have often been seen as examples of extraordinary Christian forbearance in response to others assertive behaviour. This interpretation has been useful to bullies and control freaks. ..... Such meek compliance would earn them a place in heaven, they were told, even if they had to put up with hell on earth to get there.
Playwright Dennis Potter, in his play about Jesus “Son of Man” had a scene in which Jesus was struck across the face. Jesus “turned the other cheek” by thrusting the other side of his face towards his assailant, defiance in his eyes, but without the slightest attempt to retaliate. The gesture startled the aggressor, displaying back to him the consequence of violence and making him look rather foolish.

Is this what Jesus meant? One of the scholars who has researched this aspect of the teaching of Jesus is Tom Wright formerly of Oxford University and now a Canon of Westminster Abbey in London. Putting the words of Jesus into context, he shows how Jesus introduces these teachings on retaliation by comparing what he is saying with what had been taught in the past. The law of Moses said an injustice should be avenged, but in proportion “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” (Deuteronomy 19:21) In it’s time this was sensible and humane teaching…… But Jesus is facing a situation where violence is not between equals. Ultimately the Romans were in charge and expected compliance. This meant that a different strategy was called for. Tom Wright explains that in the first-century world of Jesus a blow given to the right side of the face was given with the back of the hand. It was meant to humiliate as well as hurt. Turning the face was a kind of defiance, since the aggressor would either have to use the left hand to repeat the blow or strike with an open hand. Either way, turning the other cheek was an assertion of equality, a refusal to accept the intended humiliation. The instincts of the dramatist come together with scholarship to suggest a very different understanding of “turning the other cheek” from the traditional meek and mild one. It is not about those who are dominated accepting their punishment, but the exact opposite. It requires them to assert their dignity.
********

So in a way, Londoners going about their business is 'turning the other cheek'.

I didn't realise that, unwittingly, I had been following the example of Jesus. God moves in mysterious ways in and around Tufnell Park.

The man who made a whip of cords and drove the moneylenders out of the temple would not expect us to meekly submit to an ideology that calls his divinity, blasphemy.

How are things over your way?
We had an amusing(?) incident on Friday evening. Suddenly the carriage heard a loud noise like a balloon popping. Then we all noticed the small boy in the push chair whose Macdonalds balloon really had popped.

God moves in mysterious ways in and around Tufnell Park.

Apparently he lives in Dartmouth Park and can be seen leaving the Boston Arms on a Friday night much the worse for wear.

Granny

You have inspired me to start watching Songs of Praise again.

Zico - the Boston Arms is a real dive. But then Jesus did mix with Publicans and Sinners...

Not only is Christianity spiritually and morally superior to Islam, it has far better tunes.

Granny W - fine - I'm all 'undaunted' and 'defiant', strutting around North London, hands on hips except to make an occasional 'V' sign at passing strangers.

Now I'm going to try and imitate Jesus in another way - turn water into wine...

"Most mainline Protestant and Catholic Churches do not preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the U.K. All they preach about is unity with their muslim neighbours and good works. It's no wonder they don't preach the gospel. They don't want to offend the muslims, and yet Jesus said "they will hate you because of me".Christianity and islam are not compatible and never will be. They must accept the true face of islam that it is evil."

Just browsing through the comments, this baby caught me eye, it cracked my up.

Okay let me see, to begin with you know nothing about Islam, you nothing about churches.

_________________________________________________

Jesus said "they will hate you because of me".

I will tell you something, you can close your browser or ignore what I will write as it may jeopardise the deep hatred you have of Islam and Muslims. I really wouldn't want to ruin that for you.

Well Muslims love Jesus just like Christians, the only difference is that we don't believe he was the son of God. It is a grave sin in Islam to attack or insult the Prophets, Moses, David, Joseph, Jesus or anyone of them. We believe in the miracles of Christ, we believe in his miraculous birth, we believe that his mother was Blessed. We also believe that Jesus will return during the End Times ( The period we are currently in) he will return and descend at Damascus, at the Ommayad Mosque, this is where John the Baptist (Hazrat Yahya) is buried, he is considered to be a Prophet as well.

Your spreading vicious hatred will not help, Muslims have no hate for Jesus, only Love. In order to be a Muslim one has to believe in all the Prophets of God, if a Muslim was to say anything bad about Jesus his faith would not be complete.

_________________________________________________

"Christianity and islam are not compatible and never will be"

They will be when Jesus returns.

Actually, IA, if Mary had gotten pregnant out of wedlock in a Muslim country, she would have been stoned to death.

End of story.

When you used to order your Jewish dhimmis to clean your public latrines on their sabbath day, I'm sure it was out of respect for Moses. Your make we want to puke.

Interested and Zico
I don't know the Boston Arms but I used to go to the Wellington in Shepherds Bush in the 80s to see a mates band; is it still there?

This is the hymn I play best on the accordion. It's especially for our friend in the corner, ia this is for you.

Colours of day dawn into the mind,
The sun has come up, the night is behind
Go down in the city, into the street
And let's give the message to the people we meet.

So light up the fire and let the flame burn,
Open the door, let Jesus return.
Take seeds of His Spirit, let the fruit grow,
Tell the people of Jesus, let his love show.

Go through the park, on into the town;
The sun still shines on, it never goes down.
The light of the world is risen again;
The people of darkness are needing our friend

Chorus etc...

By the way, it is said that Christ will return from the Mount of Olives through the Golden or Eastern gate of Jerusalem. Which was blocked by the Ottoman Turks in the 16th century, presumably to direct Him towards this mosque in Damascus.

Do you really think that the Son of God, with power over the grave, is going to be stopped by a dozen breeze blocks and a tub of readymix??

Actually, IA, if Mary had gotten pregnant out of wedlock in a Muslim country, she would have been stoned to death.

End of story.

_________________________________________________

Wrong. We believe that she was a virgin and that her becoming pregnant was a miracle, a sign from God.

Granny

I do not know Shepherds Bush very well. Boston Arms is an old school Irish pub with pictures of Teddy Kennedy and JFK on the walls - although the last time I went they had added a Thai Food menu on it to catch the trendy fashionable types in the area like Interested ;)

Yes I love the inspirational lyrics of Christian Spirituals. This is one of my favourites, such poetry, such ache in the words:

By the rivers of Babylon
As we sat and wept for Zion
By the moping willows in her midst
We sadly hung there our harps
Our captor said come sing a song of joy
How can we sing when joy is gone
If I forget Jerusalem
My my right hand its cunning lose
How our hearts pine away for Jerusalem
Golden city of our God
Bitter are the tears we cry for thee O Lord
So far, far away from You
Behold, arise and shine
Yeshua comes, the nations shall rejoice
Then will we all return
With Him to Zion's land
Jersusalem, behold your slavation comes
And now we look for yet a better day
When the Holy One returns
To restore Eternal Jerusalem
And to bring our people home

++++

Also has the potential to annoy and irk ia786's of the world with the references to Jerusalem and Zion :-)

Give me a Jamaican Pentecostal Church full of foot-stomping hand-clapping Gospel any day - it even makes this stony atheist heart exult.

Hi Granny Weatherwax,

"By the way, it is said that Christ will return from the Mount of Olives through the Golden or Eastern gate of Jerusalem. Which was blocked by the Ottoman Turks in the 16th century, presumably to direct Him towards this mosque in Damascus.

Do you really think that the Son of God, with power over the grave, is going to be stopped by a dozen breeze blocks and a tub of readymix??"

According to our traditions he will descend holding the wings of two angels, in Damascus. At the white Minaret at the Ommayad Mosque, this is where his cousin (Not sure) is buried. Before this we believe that The Mahdi will rise, the Mahdi is alive now and when the order is given he will be unveiled. The World is heading for disaster, its not just Islamic terrorism, WW3 is around the corner and Jesus will be sent to stop this war. The Anti Christ will take power during this war.

Yes Zico that is a beautiful psalm which even Boney M could not ruin.

Granny W - I work in Shepherd's Bush, near the Green but I don't know the Wellington - whereabouts is it?

Shepherd's Bush is trying, and failing, to be trendy.

This it turning into a Brits' chatroom - no bad thing, of course.

Zico - I've sampled the Thai menue at the Boston Arms - could be worse.

Do you know the Junction Tavern? Used to be a drug pushers' paradise - now a gastropub.

(Ooops, I'm giving away my whereabouts to any potential jihadi Mullahs out there who may be offended by my comments here and at another 'Place'.)

ia786 - is the Ommayad Mosque the really big one in Damascus? If so, I've been there. The women in our tour group had to put on a kind of white, pointy hijab that made us look like the Klu Klux Klan! We had a bit of a giggle about it.

(Not making any serious or relevant point here.)

Interested,

Not sure, here is a pic:

http://www.mideasttravelling.net/syria/damascus/gallery/omayyad_mosque.jpg

You can see the white minaret there.

My Grandsheikh’s tomb is actually in Damascus, his tomb overlooks the whole city. It is pretty high up.

ia786

You always enter the forums and post your opinions but never back anything up with proper facts. You spew ignorance like a typical brainwashed Muslim. I try to stay away from even replying to your posts because I feel like I am talking to a 5 yr old....you know what I mean..instead of providing facts and trying to understand where other people come from you turn to name calling...calling people "stupid" and such other things.

In your eyes Islam has nothing wrong with it but everytime I ask you to prove the terrorists statments wrong, you cant. Why?, because they are not wrong..they are "better" Muslims than you because they follow the prophets(may he burn in hell) example exactly. If you do not embrace violent jihad against the unbelievers you are not a "true" muslim....its a violent and pathetic religion build upon the blood of innocent people.

ia, according to my Oxford Dictionary of Saints the burial place of St john the Baptist is Sebaste in Samaria. Which is abut half way between Nazareth and Jerusalem and nowhere near Damascus. He was a cousin of Christ, his mother Elizabeth and Mary were kinswomen (translated in the KJV as cousin) of the line of Aaron, ie a priestly family. Not to be confused with Miriam the sister of Moses and Aaron, centuries earlier. His father Zachariah was also a priest and Israeli archaeologists believe that they have recently (2003)discovered his tomb in the Kidron valley just outside Jerusalem.

Just wait until I get broadband, then I can keep up with the conversation. When we went into the Al Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the rock we were not required to cover our heads at all. Just remove our shoes, which the tour guide said were the only things locally that were never stolen. The Dome was being regilded, it had a big banner saying Murphy's across it.

When you say Grandsheik, is that a family member, or a religious leader?

The Wellington was turn right out of the station and about 5 minutes walk.

There are many different opinions as to where the Prophets are buried. I cannot really comment as I am not 100% sure. I'm not sure where Adam is buried, I think Hawa (Eve) is buried in Arabia. Joseph is in Israel/Palestine, I only know a few of them.

You've been to Jerusalem, you're very lucky.

"When you say Grandsheik, is that a family member, or a religious leader?"

That is a religious leader, he was my Sheikh's Sheikh. He was originally from Dagestan, it can be seen as family as well, when you take beyat with a Sheikh they become responsible for your spiritual state, they help and guide you. They give you advice, you rise with them on the day of resurrection and they take you to the Prophet.

Shaykh `Abdullah al-Fa'iz ad-Daghestani, that is his name.

http://www.uksufi.co.uk/Mureeds/Golden_chain/39.htm

My Sufi Order has a golden chain, that is the Sheikhs that led the order. They go back to the Prophet. They are all on there.

http://www.uksufi.co.uk/Newcomers/sheik_nazim_lineage.htm

Pocadon, I disagree on one small point. It is not a violent and pathetic "religion", but a violent satanic cult that seeks to destroy all of mankind's religions. Wherever it has gained a foothold, islam has sought to destroy Christian churches, Hindu temples, Jewish synagogues, holy scriptures, ancient tombs and other burial places, Bhuddas, art, all things held in esteem by others. This taqiyya-spewing ia clown talks about islamic reverence for Jesus and his Apostles. His "palestinian" buddies certainly showed their respects when they desecrated the Church of the Nativity a couple years ago, didn't they?

Yes, ia786, that's the one.

Actually, other than the fact that the hijab in question was a bit comical, I had no problem at all about covering my head when entering a mosque, or taking off my shoes, or anything else. I've travelled a lot in the Middle East and in Turkey, and have no problem observing protocol in mosques.

I make a distinction between the spiritual and the temporal. Even atheists from Christian countries make the very Christian distinction between God's and Caesar's.

My problem with Islam is that it doesn't make this distinction. It is one thing to have to cover your head in a mosque, and quite another to have to dress in a sack when you're just out and about in the street.

All religions are conservative and patriarchal. However, some can reform and adapt to modern living, without jettisoning traditions. Islam seems to be the most intractable of the main world religions in this respect.

Yes, I visited the Church of the Nativity on the same trip. My Father in law took part in a carol service there in August 1945 which was recorded (well in advance!) for broadcast on the radio that Christmas. The mess made was contemptible.

Now I will lie down in peace, and sleep; for thou alone, O Lord, makest me live unafraid.
Psalm 4

Good night all

Good night and God bless.

Christianity teaches us to turn the other cheek. Do not kill. Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not cheat. Honor your parents. Do not covet. Lots of important lessons for all humans.

But did you know that the Bible also teaches us:

Not to be fooled by the false prophet(s).

To test the Spirits to see if they are from God or from Satan.

Do not cast our pearls amongst the swine.

You shall know them by their fruits.

Christians aren't stupid... we're just being choked by a PC world just like everybody else is. I do not trust islam or its muslims, because I know that islam is a false cult intent on destruction of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Athiests, Gays, Catholics, and all things non-muslim.

Trust me when I tell you... we're not stupid. I also know that in the end, the evil of islam will be defeated. Probably through Armogeddon or at the hand of God Himself.

"the Ommayad Mosque the really big one in Damascus?"
--- from a posting above

What Muslims call the "Omayyad Mosque" in Damascus is, in fact, the former Basilica of St. John the Baptist, which in the 8th century was forcibly turned into a mosque by the Umayyad ruler. But the changes he made were done by Byzantine Christian craftsmen, and the church is a mosque only because the Muslims made it into that, and had those Christian workmen add those islamisant details. So much of what is called "Islamic" architecture is, in any case, simply Byzantine architecture (including the squinch, which may have been invented in Sassanian Persia, but was developed then in the churches of Byzantium and the East), which the Muslims appropriated, as they did so often. It is a Byzantine Christian structure, with the grammar of Islamic ornament here and there on display.

The same thing happened in Jerusalem, when the Omayyads decided to situate the "farthest mosque" (from which Muhamamd took his Night Journey on his winged steed Al-Buraq up to the Seventh Heaven and back) in Jerusalem, and right on top of the Temple Mount, to thereby lay Muslim claim to the holiest site in Judaism, in the city holy to both Christians and Jews. The rock which was on top of Temple Mount and which to the Jews was the place from which the world began, was simply taken over, appropriated, as Muslims appropriated and changed as they saw fit, all sorts of places, and people, from Judaism and Christianity (Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mary among them), and that rock then became the particular spot where Al-Buraq ascended into heaven.

The Dome of the Rock is in its outward aspect a Byzantine martyrium. The Arabic on the inside dome is not from the Qur'an, as so many visitors assume. In the opinion of at least one of the most celebrated scholars of early Islam, the writing may well not be Islamic at all (too many people assume that anything in Arabic, whether on buildings, or on coins, must necessarily be Islamic -- not true). That subject is both complicated and delicate, so I will stop here.

And then there is the Hagia Sophia of Constantinople, seized on May 28, 1453, by Mehmet Fatih, Mehmet the Conqueror, from the Byzantine Christians who remained in that by then much-depopulated and demoralized city. Under Islamic control, its crosses systematically chipped out or off, what must have been beautiufl paintings and frescoes destroyed or vandalized, with care taken to remove all Christian imagery. Because the Hagia Sophia was the main Christian church, the symbol of the Christian presence in Constantinople, it suffered the most damage. Another church, now referred to as Kariye Djami ("djami" means "mosque" in Turkish), retained far more of its art, for the Muslim vandals were not quite so insistent on dealing with a lesser church so ruthlessly -- possibly it was left as a consolation to the city's Christians, or perhaps the art-work simply dazzled some locals. You can visit, if you care at this point to brave Istanbul, or you can see the illustrations in Underwood's 3-volume "The Kariye Djami" published, no doubt at great cost, by that samaritan organization the Bollingen Foundation).

When in 1934 Ataturk managed to get the Hagia Sophia turned into a museum from its former status as mosque, no repairs were done. And of course, just try to suggest today, as I once did to some very secular and I thought completely Westernized and sensible Turks, that they should complete the process and make the Hagia Sophia again a Christian church. "If we did that, we would have a revolution on our hands," they replied, amazed at my innocence.

"Yes, I visited the Church of the Nativity on the same trip. My Father in law took part in a carol service there in August 1945 which was recorded (well in advance!) for broadcast on the radio that Christmas. The mess made was contemptible."

That’s brilliant!

Good Night Granny Weatherwax.

Thanks for your response Interested.

"Actually, other than the fact that the hijab in question was a bit comical, I had no problem at all about covering my head when entering a mosque, or taking off my shoes, or anything else. I've travelled a lot in the Middle East and in Turkey, and have no problem observing protocol in mosques."

You are a reasonable and well-mannered woman.

"My problem with Islam is that it doesn't make this distinction. It is one thing to have to cover your head in a mosque, and quite another to have to dress in a sack when you're just out and about in the street."

You have to realise that the Scholars have very different opinions when it comes to this. Not all Muslim women were 'sacks'. To begin with Muslim women have to dress modestly, they don't have to wear a sack. I know Muslim girls that dress casual clothes that are just modest, theirs nothing wrong with that. I think according to Shariah a women’s hair has to be covered, the face doesn’t have to be covered, It is the Wahabi school of thought that makes this mandatory. This is what you see in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf. In other countries it is a lot more relaxed.

ia786

Read Hugh's last post and learn something you silly boy.

ia786 - you haven't addressed my point about the distinction between the spiritual and temporal. That's a rather Christian turn of phrase, so I'll re-phrase it - religion and politics, public versus private lives, crime versus sin.

I've been in many a Buddhist temple in Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia, and know the stuff about not pointing your feet at the Buddha.

I'm not a Buddhist, and, while I think the feet pointing stuff is a bit potty, I'll observe it when I'm in a temple.

But I'd resent it if this intruded into the secular realm. Once outside a temple, I want to do as I please within the law of the land. Same with all religions.

This is an aspect of Islam that needs looking at, wouldn't you say, Ia786?

"Well Muslims love Jesus just like Christians.."

No you don't ia. You love the 'ayeesa' of the Qur'an, who is a completely different person to the 'Jesus' of the Bible.

Infact the Ayeesa of the Qur'an is a fictional figure not a historical one. He didn't exist. (Except in Muhammeds rather colourful imagination.)

P.S; Just to let you know incase you reply to this comment with a load of apologetic dribble, I am about to go to bed as its 12:30am and some of us Brits have work to go to in the morning.

Good night.

>When they fail, groups like the BNP can capitalize
>upon the resentment among the public. If they want
>to neutralize the BNP, let them deal with the jihad
>threat.

Exactly. Ayaan Hirsi Ali warned the Dutch press of her biggest fear: That the Netherlands, and Europe, would be forced into a situations where the only choice was the extreme right: Either islamofascism or European fascism.

The longer political leaders refuse to face up to the real problem, the longer they insist multiculturalism is a viable model, the more they will drive residents into the arms o fthe extreme right.

They say they don't want a war, but by refusing to acknowledge the implications, it is exactly what they'll be getting.

ia786, it is possible to reject Islam without hating it. Muslims always confuse criticism with persecution.

Personally, I do not believe the God who said "You shall not murder" would then instruct a true prophet to "Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them". I do not believe the God who said "You shall not steal" would then give divine sanction to armed robbery. I do not believe the God who said "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife" would then tell a man to divorce the woman he loved because a certain prophet wanted yet another wife.

Some of Mohammed’s activities could be accurately summarized as “wicked”. If a spiritual entity was telling him to do these things (such as rob and kill people), that entity was quite likely to be Satan.

I have no doubt Muslims believe in the same God as the rest of us. Unfortunately they are constantly deceived by the teachings of a false prophet.

IA...a miracle is not a 'sign' from God. A miracle is a direct interaction of God.

Muslims spend a lot of time and energy trying to prove/convince, that Jesus was/is not the son of God. If Jesus was/is the son of God, Islam collapses because Jesus would then have a higher status than Mohammad. Jesus would be divine, while Mohammad would remain mortal. I suppose the muslims object to the resurrection as well because Mohammad didn't resurrect. Again putting Mo in an inferior position to Jesus. This just wont do now, and it didn't work well for Mohammad either. Islam is supposed to be the 'perfect' religion rising from the ashes of Christianity and jooism. Mohammad is supposed to be the last 'and most perfect', prophet. It's not permissible to eclipse him with Jesus. Jesus status has been downgraded to fit the agenda. Mohammad, the black magician, cant hold a religious or spiritual candle to Jesus, in spite of muslims objections...

Muslims exploit the Liberty and freedoms they claim to hate so much in the demcratic Nation
Llike Israel and the West, Last December
Canadian Muslims chose to hold a Islamic conference on the 24th-25-and 26th which featured
a lecture on how Jesus isn't the Messiah that the Christians believe in, they even posted on their website the audio segments from the Mayor of Toronto(David Miller),RCMP Chief and Torontos Police Chief agreeing that Muslims are victims of Racism and Islamophobia.

Can you believe it,the head of the RCMP attending an event that some foreign Clerics
were barred from when they tried to hold it in the USA, plus Tariq Ramadan was there to spew his anti-West Political views.
Just wait until our transit systems and Airports are bombed and the Imams and Mosques
connected to the Jihadists have autographed photos of these protaganists shaking hands with
the same Leaders that will get on their soapbox and proclaim the we must "Fight together to stop the terrorists" and not prejudge Islam as being at the root.

Yes , the right thing would be to not prejudge
that Muslim getting on the Subway with a backpack while sweating extensively and seeming to be nervous.
But as we see in the London case, the travellers ended up being "Dead-Right" when they
didn't prejudge a male that fit the profile
for a potential suicide bomber.

News Flash:

Police have just finished an extensive
investigation into the killing on the Underground System, evidence show that the 52 passengers murdered had nothing to do with the Iraq War or oppression in Palestine.
Oh ya ,and the 1 Brazilian that fled from Police
and jumped a turnstile to get in the Underground
and run onto a carriage(car)after being ordered to stop, it has been determined that he had nothing to do with the 7/7 attack or the 7/21
bombing.

Gee, 52:1 ratio for innocent civilians being harmed and Muslims only care about the "Backlash" from the 52 murdered by other Muslims.

"That subject is both complicated and delicate, so I will stop here."

No Hugh, please don't stop just yet. I'm not religious but historically this is way too important (as it shows how the muslims usurped our cultures, here and many other places, i.e. India).

In regard to the Dome of the Rock, built on the site of the former Church of the Holy Wisdom (614AD), you may be familiar with this argument, but I would be interested in hearing your views on this particular take:

"However, Abd al-Malik designed the Dome of the Rock to be entered from the southern octant. But even if a Christian entered from the south (as designed by Abd al-Malik), though his circuit around the "Rock" would be all negative to Christianity because his or her back would always be away from the "Rock" (while reading the inner inscription), the Christian upon completing the circuit could simply refuse to face Mecca when his circuit ended in the south. He could then turn directly northward and pray through the "Rock" (which symbolized the rule of Christ in his or her life) and direct his ultimate attention to the north quarter of the sky where all people knew God the Father had His residence. If Abd al-Malik saw a Christian do this after the circuit deposited the person in the south, then Abd al-Malik knew that the person would never be a Muslim and the Christian would be accepted as a "Person of the Book" (the Holy Scriptures) but inferior to Muslims. Thus, the person would then pay the poll tax to the Muslims and carry on with his own beliefs."

See the article from the web page below:

http://askelm.com/temple/t991001.htm

(This appears to be some sort of conversion machine!)

Many previous muslim commentators have always stated that there was no prior Christian buildings on the rock (citing the Hebrew prophecy) and the majority of inhabitants were Jews not Christian. The lies these people will tell, and the BBC will broadcast them without challenge!

It's nothing short of a disgrace.

JV

For those of you who believe that most Christians are too blind to see Islam and muslims for what they really are, you are quite mistaken.
The "turn the other cheek" routine goes only so far. When both sides have been slapped, Christians go into self-defense mode. Christianity does not forbid defending oneself and it teaches Christians to fight against evil. I am not an exemplary Christian by any means but I recognize evil when I see it, and Islam is evil.

When I first began my flyer distribution last year, my first target was churches. I decided that churches would be ideal venues since they are not affiliated with the government and its politically correct rules. There are many, many churches in my neck of the woods and I visited every one of them, 230 within a 30 mile radius of my house. It took me ten months to do it, but my little flyers listing a few good websites with information about Islam reached thousands of people.

I talked to many priests and ministers. Out of the 230 churches, only 27 of them refused to let me leave my leaflets. So I went back later and when nobody was looking, I left them anyway. Here's what I learned about the Christian take on Islam from the perspective of the ministers: The Baptists are by far the most informed and knowledgable about Islam. As far as they are concerned, Islam is a Satanically inspired cult. Many of the Baptist ministers I talked to knew more about Islam than I do, not that I'm an expert. Their primary concern was saving muslims from damnation, but they were not optimistic.

The Presbyterians were a mixed lot. I happen to be a Presbyterian and I strongly condemn the church for its idiotic stance on Israel. I have made my feelings known and until their position is reversed, I have disowned my church. Out of the 25 Presbyterian churches in this area, 17 let me leave flyers. Those ministers were also well informed about Islam and they all consider it to be a destructive, evil ideology.
Jehovah's Witnesses don't have ministers, so I left leaflets on their porches. I don't know if they reached the congregations or not. I figured it was my turn to leave them something to read after years of their Saturday morning visits with colorful little pamphlets.

The Methodists were generally receptive but less informed about Islam. They seemed genuinely interested and eager to learn. Only two ministers were opposed to my flyers.

The Catholics seem to understand Islam better than anyone but the Baptists, but paradoxically, they were the least receptive to accepting my flyers! Two older priests sat me down for a long lecture about the historical conflicts between Catholicism and Islam. They weren't as candid as the Baptists in offering their opinions of Islam, but they did not defend it. They were the most politically correct of all the churches. One young priest told me that Islam is an abomination, but he said he was bound by the offical policy of the diocese. He did not explain its official policy to me.

The Lutheran, Anglican, and Episcopal churches were very receptive except one Anglican. All of these ministers were familiar with the doctrine of Islam and they all agreed that it was a dangerous, violent religion. One of them admitted that while he could say that to me, he could never say it publically because it might be misconstrued as inflammatory.

I asked very minister I met if he discussed Islam with his congregation. About half of them have discussed Islam to some extent but not in depth. I asked them if they didn't consider it very important for everyone to understand Islam's goal of world domination. Many of them said that if they exposed the doctrine of Islam and its bloody history to their congregations, they were afraid it might stigmatize muslims or even incite people to violence against them. I was well armed with copies of Islamic sermons, quotes from Islamic clerics, and other related material in case anyone argued with me. Nobody argued or disputed that Islam is a cult from hell, but they all implied that the good Lord will take care of this problem in His own way, and that it wasn't really their job to expound on the iniquities of Islam but rather on the Gospels and Christian doctrine. I sensed that many of these priests and ministers took it for granted that everyone knew Islam was a satanic cult.

I'm sorry this is so long but since I have been engaged in this project for almost a year now, I wanted to give you another view of the Christian perspective on Islam. Perhaps it is different in other areas; I live in a very conservative part of the country. But as you can see, all Christians are not idiots.

You are doing more to constrain the Jihad than the battalions now being so grievously squandered on Iraq. Can you put your leaflets on-line, where others can download, then copy,and then distribute them?

You are doing more to constrain the Jihad than the battalions now being so grievously squandered on Iraq. Can you put your leaflets on-line, where others can download, then copy,and then distribute them?

Susanp...bravo...You get Duh-Swami's award for perpetual excellence. It has no cash value, but comes equipped with warm fuzzies...thank you...

Susanp,

Thanks for your report, it was very interesting. I'm not surprised by the Catholic resistance you experienced. One rather prominent Catholic on-line, Stephen Hand, adopts an inexcusably passive posture of appeasement and misinformation.

By the way, Jehovah's Witnesses very strongly deny the divinity of Christ and are extremely anti-Catholic (basically considering the Catholic Church to be of Satan and the Anti-Christ, a view typical of fringe Protestant sects over the centuries). Secondly, they are eschatologically fatalistic, and if Muslim violence is escalating in the world, they will just passively regard it as a sign that God is soon going to end the world, so let's hunker down in our bargain-basements and re-read our Watchtower pamphlets, etc.

ia786, you said that you also love Jesus as well as Mohammad. Jesus said that you can't serve two masters. I also have a problem you stating that your kind love Jesus. Whey then do your kind persecute and murder Christians in muslim countries? If you believe that Jesus was a prophet- a prophet cannot lie. Why do you also serve a pediophile, a murderer, a rapist, an assassin, a thief and a terrorist- namely Mohammad!You may friend are serving a false prophet. Jesus BTW ain't no prophet. He is God manifested in the flesh and died for your sins on the cross for you IA.He rose from the dead and is alive. Mohammad is dead. Judas Iscariot did not die on the cross in his place. He was once his follower but he rejected him. There were also two thieves with him on the cross. The other received him and the other rejected him. Please answer my question IA786- Have you received Jesus Christ as your personal Savior? Please give me a Yes or No without any explainations or refutations. If your answer is no, would you like to receive Him?

Re: Issa (the Muslim Jesus): Muslims believe that on the Day of Judgment, Issa will return and break the cross and kill swine. This is interpreted by most Muslims to mean that Issa will destroy the hateful Christian religion and its pork-eating adherents, upholding Islam, the only true way. I forgot the source - the hadiths, perhaps? Yes, Muslims are deferent toward their version of Jesus but hate (or, at best, have unbridled contempt for) Christians, who persist in their blasphemous belief that Jesus was the Son of God. Also, Muslims hold that Jesus was never killed (i.e. crucified), but returned to Allah instead; the Jews and Christians who believe that the crucifixion actually occurred are considered to be liars and abominators. Taqiyya-practicing Muslims, such as those from CAIR, will never reveal any of this publicly, instead resorting to deceptive assertions about how Muslims esteem Jesus, having much in common with Christianity in this regard.

Christians face jail for giving treats to children of Muslims
By Nick Meo in Jakarta

The three women faced threats from a yelling mob of 150 fundamentalists during a court appearance in West Java last week. It is claimed that the women were teaching lessons in reading and writing to mixed classes of Christian and Muslim children, taking them on trips to parks and swimming pools, and rewarding them with treats such as pencils for memorising Christian prayers and Bible verses. Many of the alleged offences took place at a special Happy Week earlier this year, although the lessons began in 2003.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1707254,00.html

commonsense:

`Eventually the Yahudis will be selected and killed. The swine will be killed and the cross broken. People will revert to Islam.` http://www.islam.tc/prophecies/jesus.html

Oppas: “I believe that you understand how the entire army of Spain cannot resist the force of the Muslims. How then can you resist on this mountain? Listen to my advice. Abandon your efforts and you will enjoy many benefits from the Muslims.”

Pelayo: “Have you not read in Sacred Scripture that the Church of the Lord is like the mustard seed, which, small as it is, grows more than any other through the mercy of God?”

Oppas: “Truly, so it is written.”

Pelayo: “Our hope is in Christ. This little mountain will be the salvation of Spain and of its people. The mercy of Christ will free us from the Muslims.”
- From the “Cronica de Alfonso”, written in the 9th century, the story of Pelayo, who began the war for the reconquest of Spain.

hutchrun:
Thanks for the reference. I recall now that my original recollections derive from Chapter 53 of The Myth of Islamic Tolerance (Spencer): 'Isa, the Muslim Jesus, by Mark Durie. This chapter reflects all of this.

"Muslims spend a lot of time and energy trying to prove/convince, that Jesus was/is not the son of God. If Jesus was/is the son of God, Islam collapses because Jesus would then have a higher status than Mohammad. Jesus would be divine, while Mohammad would remain mortal."

We believe that the Prophets of God are not like ordinary people, they are not like you and I. They are the chosen ones, the were created before the rest of Mankind and have a great deal of responsibility, they are responsible to guide Mankind. The Prophets in the physical sense are mortal, they are much bigger and stronger spiritually, that is why we have to attach ourselves to them.

"I suppose the muslims object to the resurrection as well because Mohammad didn't resurrect. Again putting Mo in an inferior position to Jesus."

Resurrection, Muslims don't believe that he was killed. We believe that he was raised to heaven aged 33, he will descend when the order is given. All other Prophets have physically passed away. Muhammad, Moses, Noah, they have passed away physically, they will not return. Jesus however didn't die (according to Muslim tradition). God is all powerful and can bring the dead back to life, God will raise all Mankind on the day of resurrection, God can do as he pleases. Jesus was able to bring the dead back to life, their was a case where he brought a dead person back to life to prove he was a Prophet. Bringing someone back to life, splitting the moon in half, curing the blind, this is nothing special for the Prophets, they have authority from God. It is special for us as we need those that are spiritually powerful, they help us fulfil ourselves and fight off Satan.

_________________________________________________

"Please answer my question IA786- Have you received Jesus Christ as your personal Savior? Please give me a Yes or No without any explainations or refutations.

Yes.

_________________________________________________

"commonsense:

`Eventually the Yahudis will be selected and killed. The swine will be killed and the cross broken. People will revert to Islam.` http://www.islam.tc/prophecies/jesus.html"

According to Muslim prophesies those that side with the Anti-Christ will be destroyed. We are told that their will even be Muslims that will join the ranks of the Anti-Christ (Khawirij, Wahabis). The Jewish people didn't accept Jesus as even a Prophet, they are therefore still waiting for a Prophet to rise from amongst themselves. They opposed Jesus and Muhammad as they didn't give them superiority over other nations and people. God had chosen the Children of Israel however this honour was taken away after they did bad things to Moses and even killed Prophets afterwards that were sent to them. Jesus was sent by God specifically for the children of Israel however they rejected him.

When Jesus arrives, all will be clear. Every person will have the choice, follow Jesus, or follow the Anti-Christ. Things will be Black and White then. Everyone has the choice, no one can be fooled into following either one. The Anti-Christ will promote deviancy and falsehood, this would seem to be the easy path as one doesn’t have to control ones desires. Jesus will promote uprightness and truth, this is harder to follow. We will all have that choice. The Anti-Christ will use materialism and all the other madness that has afflicted the World to his advantage.

Those with Jesus will succeed. The Anti Christ will be destroyed.

_________________________________________________

You will probably never agree with Islam and Muslims, however when it comes to the crunch, you have to realise that all religions lead to God, we are all responsible to God for out actions, we will all have to answer before God on the day of Judgement.

Internment and deportations. Mosques turned into playgrounds and supermarkets/or razed. The only solution. This s*#t has to end. Sooner the better!

"The Anti-Christ will use materialism and all the other madness that has afflicted the World to his advantage."

I don't subscribe to the religious underpinnings of this particular argument, but I do believe that evil exists... Ia786 is once again in wonderful form, revealing more than he's aware of the evils of Islam to us daily... Thanks!

Would the fact that Muslims consider a physical book to be God incarnate suffice for this kind of satanic materialism? Would the fact that Muslims are willing to pillage and murder over the so-called 'desecration' of A BOOK be an example of "madness" afflicting the world, and an indication of their willingness to put materialism above spirituality?

Would the Islamically sanctioned actions of the 19 terrorists who flew airplanes into buildings, killing 3000 innocent persons count as evil? Would that count as Satanic "madness?"

Would Muslims admit their unquestioning belief in the koran and the hatred enshrined against non-Muslims (to such an extent that they're willing to murder on its account) to be evil or Satanically inspired?

If there were an anti-Christ, wouldn't his pronouncements look EXACTLY like the koran, and wouldn't his 'messenger' look EXACTLY like Muhammad?

When Jesus encountered Satan, he instantly knew who he was confronting and resisted him with all his human might. When Muhammad met Satan, he believed him to be an angel most high and instantly accepted his counsel -- The suppressed Satanic Verses are Islamic religious evidence that Muhammad himself couldn't distinguish between God and Satan... So much for messenger of God...

Muhammad also spent long hours pondering his own suicide. What other founder of a 'world religion' spent time pondering his own self annihilation, or the extermination of others? What other religion is founded on the actions of a primitive, illiterate, child raping, delusional self serving terroristic thug and theif?

Islam is unique in these regards...

Carolyn2
Thanks for your post. I was looking for the passages you refer to in the gospels, and had finished just before I read your post.

The christian church has had the concept of a "just war" for a long time. And defense is not condemned, either. Actually, Jesus did not condemn Peter for cutting off the centurion's ear. He told Peter that if He had wanted He could have had a legion of angels in his defense, but the prophesy had to be fulfilled. The disciples had two swords at the garden. Luke 22:38

I have read an excellent theological analysis of killing in defense, or in war, that basically said that it is an act of loving sacrifice to stop the spread of murder, mayhem, and other sins and violence, by taking the life of the perpetrator and thereby taking unto one's soul the responsibility for that killing. One stops the would-be perpetrator from his sin by sacrificing himself (morally) in expectation of eventual forgiveness. The discussion was elegant, much better than I can do here, but that's the principle. I don't know where I put that analysis.

For a really inspiring drama, based on a true story, rent the video "Sargeant York" starring Gary Cooper, about the Tennessee farm boy pacifist who became a war hero in World War One.

Of course, this Texan says: The scripture required us to turn the other cheek. And now, the scripture having been fulfilled, it is time to kick some ass.

IA: You will probably never agree with Islam and Muslims, however when it comes to the crunch, you have to realise that all religions lead to God, we are all responsible to God for out actions, we will all have to answer before God on the day of Judgement.

Why believe any muslims or Islam??? The God you will answer to is not my God...my Gods name is not Allah. All religions dont lead to Allah no matter how much you insist...In order to be a muslim, you must believe as true, the words of an arch criminal...Mohammad. You must believe that his Allahic revelations were true, without solid evidence of any kind. You must believe that the Quran is divine and holy, which can be believed, but cant be proved. In order to be a muslim, you must believe the unbelievable and be willing to do the unspeakable in Allahs name. Jihad is an obligation of every muslim...
There is no solid reason to believe muslims one iota. About God, religion or the price of beans in Bangkok...All will result in lies...The path of lies leads directly to the nearest mosque...

"Yes I love the inspirational lyrics of Christian Spirituals. This is one of my favourites, such poetry, such ache in the words:

By the rivers of Babylon
As we sat and wept for Zion
By the moping willows in her midst
We sadly hung there our harps..."

Yes, Zico, except this is from the Hebrew Bible. Way before it was a Christian spriritual, it was a Jewish text: Psalms (Tehillim) 137.

But in the Caliphate, it won't matter whether it's a Jewish or Christian text, I suppose.

Does anyone here remember the song about Psalm 137? It has been 20 years or so, I can't remember what group recorded it.