Madany: Allah: May This Arabic Name of God be used by Christians?

Mr. Spencer;

You seem to be quite keen to promote the fact that 'Allah' is simply the Arabic name for God.

I'm intrigued as to why, if you don't mind me asking?

Regards,
KC

Dear KC England:

"Quite keen"?

Really?

I haven't said much of anything about it, aside from an occasional comment. Then last week Dr. Pipes wrote an article. I commented on it. After that, the Rev. Madany sent me this article, unsolicited, and, since there is a lot of confusion about this issue, I posted it. I know what he is saying to be true, since I know personally a large number of Christians from the Levant who pray to "Allah," the God of the Bible and Christianity, in their native language of Arabic.

There is no ulterior motive here, and I can't fathom what you might imagine such a motive to be. In this case as in all others, I have no agenda other than the truth.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Thanks Robert,
I really wasn't implying a motive.
I was genuinly interested as to why you were posting these articles, because for me, the discovery that Allah genuinly does mean God is a fairly new one upon the completion of my first year in Arabic language studies.
Thats all honest!

I certainly, didn't think you'd converted and were subliminally preaching the Islamic message. (Just in case thats what you thought I was implying!!)

Regards;
Kc

One would think that Arabic-speaking Christians would want to throw off the linguistic shackles historically imposed upon them by their Imperialistic Arab conquerors and dhimmitizers.

Of course, practically speaking, it would be a gargantuan effort for a people to change languages in mid-stream. At the very least, though, they could start an educational campaign amongst themselves to expurgate the word "Allah" from conversation, liturgy and religious texts, and substitute Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, or English for "God".

This is quite insightful for me as well. I have been reading the Furqan al Haqq, which has been using Allah interchangeably with Al aab wa ibn wa ruh, etc....in fact, the fateha of the furqan al haqq is the equivalent to the bismallah, with the opening phrase bisma-l-aab. (In the name of the father). I had wondered for a long time, whether or not to simply refer in Arabic to God as ar-rab (Lord) which is what I think the Copts do or something other than Allah. Is this why conversion to Christianity has been so difficult in the middle east? Does the image of the Muslim Allah continually cloud the mind of a new convert, or how does he resolve such a conflict. It would be enlightening to hear the perspective of a muslim convert to Christianity.

I have yet to hear my God tell me to murder my brothers and sisters for his cause and to show the world his love and mercy, Jesus warned people to test the fruits since it will tell you the type of tree producing them.
Each time I hear a Muslim cite the Quran to prove Allah is the real Gog of Gods I look for
the love and compassion,Islam means submission,submission means to give up free will
and follow a pre-set system of laws and rules.

CAIR has yet to actually denounce terrorism or the Muslims doing the killing,CAIR has only claimed that the action are un-Islamic and that they denounce the killing of the innocent.
But the Quran lists all non-Muslims as the enemies of Allah and ergo they're guilty of crimes against Islam and a threat to world peace.

Arabic-speaking Christians using the word "Allah" for "God" is analogous to German-speaking Jews living under Hitler's Third Reich using the word "Fuhrer" for "Adonai" (Lord).

I would choke if I used "allah" for G-d. (I never capitalize allah or islam, in case you haven't noticed) allah is not my G-d.

Yes Bill, but I'd rather call a rose a rose (or any number of other appropriately aesthetic words one could come up with) than a "turd".

"Madany: Allah: May This Arabic Name of God be used by Christians?"

The word allah = god

There is a GOD Who created the heavens and the earth.

God is a title - NOT a name. There is a name though - and it changes from time to time [watch the 'Yaweh' people freak]

God is 'Omni' No?

Exd 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I NOT known to them.

Isa 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. {shall - key word]

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

It is not lawful to even utter it. I wish it were - but it is not. I'm not the revealer.

If I were aloud - it would blow MANY - 'out of the water' {so to speak...and it would finish ALL arguments

I have yet to hear my God tell me to murder my brothers and sisters for his cause and to show the world his love and mercy, Jesus warned people to test the fruits since it will tell you the type of tree producing them.

Posted by: ala-sux

The True God - is HOLY! Murder is not in His Character!

Beth, have you received the white stone?

Beth, have you received the white stone?

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

No - it was given to the WHOLE world.

It's right there - for the taking.

You have to take it - Mohideen - and it is in the New Testament.

Isa 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail

God is NOT a liar

All of the people who are looking for God - I TRULY LOVE! That will never change.

They come in MANY forms

allah is NOT another name for God! why desecrate God's name by calling him allah? even if you're an atheist

Because - The God - says there are MANY gods.

Is that so hard to understand?

It ALL has to do with the heart - which God [the True God] searches the hearts of ALL.

Tell all - what exactly do you think - of a person [especially a young one] who is willing to make the 'altimate sacrifice' -- for God?

Is is FAR MORE WORTHY than than those who claim to believe in God - but when push comes to shove - are exposed for the cowards they Truly are.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

It is the responsibility of the "Christian" leaders to spread this beautiful message. But - I ask you - Where are they???

Ojala! Is it getting hot in this thread. Does anyone remember Paul trying to reach the pagan Greeks who had erected a monument "To an Unknown God". Remember what Paul said...That whom they worshipped in ignorance he now proclaimed. Of course, they werent any more reasonable than OTHER practitioners of false religions, but that didn't keep Paul from using their own idols against them. In Persian there are two words for God. Khoda and Allah. The real question isn't whether God is Allah of the Koran, but is he Allah the father, son and Holy spirit? Allah of the Koran is a false diety. Like so many pretenders before him, he will certainly fall, Molech and Baal will testify to that.

Ojala! Is it getting hot in this thread. Does anyone remember Paul trying to reach the pagan Greeks who had erected a monument "To an Unknown God". Remember what Paul said...That whom they worshipped in ignorance he now proclaimed.

Yes - They know not - what they worship - BUT - blessed are they who try

They are my friends.....forever

No one has commented that 'god' is a Germanic word, that makes-do in the singular for the Monotheistic God and in lower case for pagan myths, many of which are Germanic.

The tetragrammaton (the four-letter word-thing) is (transliterated into Roman letters) YHWH. The ancient rabbis added vowels that make pronouncing it a phonological absurdity. The practice in Protestant bibles is to render it as 'the Lord, Der Herr, el Señor', etc.

Christians don't have a problem pronouncing the name 'Yahwah' (a reasonable reconstruction based on good historical linguistics and historical phonology}). Jews do. The question Robert Spencer asks is how do the Muslims vs. the Arabic-speaking Christians do it. Robert's comments are correct.

Dear KC England:

"Quite keen"?

Really?

I haven't said much of anything about it, aside from an occasional comment. Then last week Dr. Pipes wrote an article. I commented on it. After that, the Rev. Madany sent me this article, unsolicited, and, since there is a lot of confusion about this issue, I posted it. I know what he is saying to be true, since I know personally a large number of Christians from the Levant who pray to "Allah," the God of the Bible and Christianity, in their native language of Arabic.

There is no ulterior motive here, and I can't fathom what you might imagine such a motive to be. In this case as in all others, I have no agenda other than the truth.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Go back up and read --- NO ONE is my "Rev" but God - which is the Word.

Psa 40:4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

Robert - you are going to have to staighten this one one out - with many.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding [which I love being corrected - if it is right] But you have me going on this one.

Christians don't have a problem pronouncing the name 'Yahwah' (a reasonable reconstruction based on good historical linguistics and historical phonology}). Jews do. The question Robert Spencer asks is how do the Muslims vs. the Arabic-speaking Christians do it. Robert's comments are correct.

Loxias ? What difference does it make? If the Name changes? [and it does]

What matters is what is in the heart - Always did.

Do you care if some one comes to you and they are at their wits end - because there is an army after them - would you not help them?

That is God. Because of Love. God is Love.

I never want to be any other way

No other way is worth living for

I note my post was also removed.Ummagumma complains about same.

Robert Spencer, in political terms, is write-wing. He agrees with me that he is left-wing in certain terms, but in write-wing right-wing things he prefers to stand next to the Dhimmi drunken daughers of GWB.

Oof. I've suggested that Robert is pro-write-Winging-whore. Well, yes, so am I but vis-a-vis Robert I don't think so.

"I would choke if I used "allah" for God. (I never capitalize allah or islam, in case you haven't noticed) allah is not my God."
Posted by: Carolyn2 at July 2, 2005 06:09 PM

Carolyn I really know where you're coming from, But Allah genuinly does translate 'The God'.
Believe me, during my Arabic classes I've searched high and low to try and prove that wrong, but to no avail, because it's true.

I just have to conclude then, like I stated on an earlier thread, that the 'Allah' of the Bible is not the same as the 'Allah' of the Qur'an.

Its just the same as 'Jibreel' being the Arabic name for 'Gabriel'. Study both their charecteristics and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that the 'Jibreel' of the qur'an is not the same as the 'Jibreel' of the Bible.
Same thing.

Regards,
Kc

There is one thing not mentioned here - THAT THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN BY JEWS - BOTH OT AND NT.

So rather than arguing over this culture's name for god or that one,

IF YOU FOLLOW THE BIBLE, then use the same name/s that they used for god, THE HEBREW NAMES, or at the least for Christians, the Greek equivlant..

It is after all, the language that Yeshua chose, he chose the Jews and their language to spread HIS word.

So lets use HIS chosen language. It would save a lot of debate - especially in Muslim countries (and our own for that matter) where Muslims fequently use "Allah" to muddy the waters.

A Christian teacher friend of mine just back from Indonesia, said the Christians there were begging her to teach them the Hebrew name of God, as the Muslims were saying to them,

'See you use OUR name for god, so come back to Mosque' (naturally consequences would follow if they didn't)

USE THE HEBREW!!!!!!

Beth,

I'm not quite sure what you want me to straighten out, but here is a guess:

Arabic does not belong to Islam, and is not essentially Muslim. It existed before Islam and is spoken by non-Muslims as well as Muslims.

Non-Muslims -- Jews and Christians -- are most emphatically not referring to the God of Islam when they pray to "Allah." They are simply praying in Arabic.

I believe some commenters here, influenced by some half-baked material published by some ill-informed writers, are assuming that to refer to "Allah" is to refer to the God of Islam and the Qur'an. That is in fact not true.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

This thread as well as the original Pipes article thread continues to confuse me.

What is the point?

It is clear that the 3 major religions are in contradiction to one another. So saying that Allah's Quran is not in my books is not news.

I see a lot of problems knowing where the name Allah comes from here. Only of the Torah's original Hebrew names for G-d is "Elohim". It is the third word in the Torah - "Bereshit Barah Elohim" - "In the beginning, G-d created", etc.

Later on, in numerous places, we see a much shorter term used, "El" and "Eloha", to refer to G-d, in the sense of unlimited power and abilities. Anyone who speaks fluent Hebrew has no problem understanding that the Arabic term Allah sounds an awful like like the original "El", "Eloha" and "Elohim".

To Loxias, the "ancient Rabbis" are not the ones who established the alternate pronunciation of G-d's Tetragrammaton name in Hebrew. This is oral tradition that goes back to the time of Abraham, if not to Adam. It is G-d's will, not any rabbi's modification.

An article slightly discussing Judaism's approach to pronouncing a variety of G-d's names can be found here: Respecting G-d in Speech. This article may be confusing for readers not familar with Judaism.

And there is a partial connection between Judaism's definition of G-d and Islam's. Once again, I quote Maimonides 13 Principles of Faith:

1. God exists
2. God is one and unique
3. God is incorporeal
4. God is eternal
5. Prayer is to be directed to God alone and to no other
6. The words of the prophets are true
7. Moses' prophecy is better than any other prophet's
8. The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings all recorded in the Talmud and other ancient writings, all summarized in Maimonides' Mishneh Torah) were given to Moses
9. There will be no other Torah
10. God knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11. God will reward the good and punish the wicked
12. The Mashiach will come
13. The dead will be resurrected

Source: What Do Jews Believe? (basic information)

From the list above, I understand that Judaism and Islam mutually share points 1 through 6, 10, 11 and possibly 12. The two religions completely conflict on points 7 through 9. I have no idea what Islam's opinion is on point 13 but it does not refer to a description of G-d but to events that will take place in the future.

So the bottom line as I see it is that Judaism's and Islam's definitions of the attributes of G-d are highly similar. They are both montheistic religions and both are in total contrast to Christianity's defintion of god. In fact, from what I understand, Islam explictly dismisses to concepts of resurrection and Jesus being anything more than a purely human messenger, prophet, messiah, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong.

But all this is irrelevant as what counts is what each religion believes it is commanded to obey and how to act. In this sense, there is much more in common between Judaism and Christianity. This should be plain for all to see.

Is there something in Pipe's article or the follow-ups that have contradictory proof to any of this?

Thanks, shy guy. You beat me to the punch .. or posting as it may be. Excellent information for those unaware.

Shy

Why do you not see that God and LORD are ONE God.

And the Word of the Lord appeared to.....

This text distingues God (the Father) from God (the Holy Spirit), yet they are one and the same, except The Spirit of Truth stands before Man and God the Father, we cannot know the Father except through the Son, he has revealed him . If we deny the son we deny the Father, and come into judgement through the Spirit of Truth (The Holy Spirit, the Judge, the Advocate, the Paraclete is one ONE Lord his identity in the flesh is Jesus of Nazareth)

42David himself declares in the Book of Psalms:
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand

breadwinner: Shy

Why do you not see that God and LORD are ONE God.

There used to be a time where you'd dunk us in boiling oil for responding like that. Sorry the party's over.

If you insist on getting down and dirty, OK. Please give me precise sources for the 2 verses you quoted.

Robert, I did not start this. I'll be happy to stop. But please either declare your boards as open for Christian missionaries to duckhunt us non-christian infidels :) or talk nicely with folks like breadwinner and beth and tell them that their arrogance and intollerance of other people's personal beliefs here is persona-non-grata.

in christianity, we have the trinity, or triune god, that being the father, son and holy spirit. the holy spirit is also called the "comforter". the holy spirit produces the fruit of the spirit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc. christians are not "better" than anyone, just better off, in our humble opinion, and only because of what jesus christ has done for us and nothing of ourselves. jesus took away the world's sins at the cross 2005 years ago. that includes the world's sins from the dawn of creation into eternity, except for the sin of unbelief in jesus christ. this is the "good news" of the gospel.

for islam to focus constantly on how much sinning everyone is doing and micromanaging everyone's personal habits is absurd. sins were taken away 2005 years ago and all that remains in order to please god is to accept jesus' life living in you by faith. that's it. we don't need islamic guilt trips about not growing beards a certain length or not reporting around to mosque five times per day. that's all an unnecessary guilt trip designed to keep you in the islamic cult and arrogant about how much your are doing for god.

jesus sent the comforter (holy spirit) to believers after jesus was raised from the dead. the holy spirit leads believers into all truth.
jesus said that he who has the son (jesus christ), also has the father. he who does not have the son, cannot see the father and does not know the father. that is why jesus said that the jewish pharisees and saducees who were trying to kill jesus "were of their father the devil". the jewish leaders wanted jesus dead because of job security and because jesus usurped their religious authority, kind of like muslim leaders today who demonstrate such legalistic meanness. legalism (relying on your own performance to please god) makes people mean as hornets and that is what we see in stringent islam today.
a person treats others in the manner that he believes god is treating him, so if there is a particularly mean god like satan who rules over a particular religion like islam, then we get mean people like terrorists out of islam.

so, whether it is "allah" that is used or any other name for god, jesus christ is really the only name that gets you access to the one true god.
therefore it could be or is even probable that muslims and jews are deceived into worshipping the same god, since they both essentially deny jesus christ as the son of god. even though islam seems to be doing most or all of the hating currently and is persecuting the jews, both groups have the wrong god because they exclude jesus christ.

jesus said that he came to earth to bring a sword of truth, so if any of the above offends you or strikes you as narrowminded, jesus himself said that the way to him is narrow and few there are that find it.

regarding our current conflict with terrorism:
to islam, freedom is the "aggressor". islam can't stand freedom, which causes me to say repeatedly to islam, "excuse me for living".

Shy

Dont take it so personally,its not meant as an insult.

The text

And the Word of the Lord appeared to.....
is used throughout the OT.

Now this has happened to the Gentiles too, me for one, it will happen to all humanity who reject Christ, by that I do not mean the Jews as his love for the Jews is without any precedent or argument.

The text
The Lord said to my Lord

The LORD Gives Dominion to the King.

A Psalm of David.

1(A)The LORD says to my Lord:
"(B)Sit at My right hand
Until I make (C)Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Cross references:

Psalm 110:1 : Matt 22:44; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42, 43; Acts 2:34, 35; Heb 1:13
Psalm 110:1 : Matt 26:64; Eph 1:20; Col 3:1; Heb 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2
Psalm 110:1 : 1 Cor 15:25; Eph 1:22

Possibly transending nit picking disagreements over God's name is just to hard for people. We insist on naming the un-nameable in order to talk about it. In reality all anyone needs to know is that "God is Love", and "God is".
The reason that God is "love", is because love is singular...it stands alone...it has no opposite..."Hate", is not the opposite of love...hate is the opposite of "like"...you either hate something or you like it, you might like it a lot, but this is not love. It is improper use of the word love, to apply it to innanimate objects. You can like strawberry ice cream a lot, but it is delusional to think you can love it...Love is for what is "living". But our God is the "living God", says the master of love...and he was correct...living and loving are done in the present...not the past, not the future, but NOW...Most people are in the past, worrying about the future, and jump right over the present...this gap causes lots of problems for individuals and societies in general.
Everything there is, exists in the present, "now"...except our mentalities which bounce all over the place. There are few things in life that cause us to focus on the present...sex and violence are two of these, thats one of the reasons they are so popular.
Love builds up and is the power, says Paul...
And he was right...the real secret is "love without an object". You dont need a name to understand these principals...once you know that "God is"...love, there is little more to say, but lots to do...

Shy Guy et al:

I have said this before, and doubtless I will say it again:

Comments are unmoderated. You can largely write what you want, because I won't be looking. However, calls to genocide and references to "towel heads" and the like are not welcome.

Nor is inter-dhimmi squabbling. I have long called for an alliance between Jews and Christians to face the common threat that would conquer and subjugate us both. This kind of arguing between Jews and Christians should not be going on here -- it is not the time or the place. It is time to work together, or we will not have the luxury to continue such arguments later.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

breadwinner: Dont take it so personally, its not meant as an insult.

The text

And the Word of the Lord appeared to.....
is used throughout the OT.

U'dvar Hashem neer'ah el.....

This usually refers to a prophetic revelation. So?

Next:

The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Otherwise, once again, very unimpressed by another forced interpretation by chroniclers desperate to find legitmacy in their beliefs through Judaism's, which they rejected and extensively plagiarized at the same time.

And again, from the time that David composed that Psalm until the time the Christians twisted the literal interpretations, no learned Jew would have understood what you were yapping about nor did they have problems understanding the simple Hebrew used in that verse.

Argh! I just hit the POST key.

Uni-moratorium on my side.

"Inter-dhimmi squabling"! Who would've thought!

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
It is not lawful to even utter it. I wish it were - but it is not. I'm not the revealer.
If I were aloud - it would blow MANY - 'out of the water' {so to speak...and it would finish ALL arguments
Beth

Is the name ‘Allah’ found in the Old Testament or the New Testament? The following searches establish that the name ‘Allah’ is not found in them. The URLs are:

http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=Allah§ion=0&translation=str&oq=&sr=1

http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=Allah§ion=0&translation=nsn&oq=&sr=1

Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, addresses God Almighty by the name ‘Allah.’ The Muslims kiss the Black Stone built into a corner of the Kabah in Makkah. The following Tradition numbered 808 in Al-Tirmidhi collection establishes that the Black Stone is indeed the White Stone. Quoting the Tradition, we have:
===
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "The black stone descended from Paradise whiter than milk, but the sins of the descendants of Adam made it black."
Ahmad and Tirmidhi transmitted it, the latter saying that his is a hasan sahih tradition.
===

As a Muslim, I am tempted to say that Rev 2:17 and the above Tradition establish that the religion of Islam is the final religion. I hope God Almighty tunes the hearts of the lucky ones to accept the final religion.

Thanks Beth.

Mohideen Ibramsha: Is the name ‘Allah’ found in the Old Testament or the New Testament? The following searches establish that the name ‘Allah’ is not found in them. The URLs are: http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=Allah§ion=0&translation=str&oq=&sr=1

http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=Allah§ion=0&translation=nsn&oq=&sr=1

Your search logic also means that the name Yishmael is not to be found anywhere in the KJ Bible. Yishmael is the original Hebrew pronunciation of Ishmael, as it is spelled in English.

Similarly, the name Ibrahim is nowhere to be found in the KJ Bible. Of course, Ibrahim is Arabic for the original Avraham in Hebrew, known as Abraham in English, or Abe for short.

So, what is your point on this issue?

ok...Robert...point well taken...I will stop preaching and get back to Islam and jihad...

Mohideen posted:Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "The black stone descended from Paradise whiter than milk, but the sins of the descendants of Adam made it black."

Tabari I:298 “The Black Stone which was originally whiter than snow was brought down with Adam as well as the staff of Moses..."
Muhammad said, “The stone turned black because it was fingered by menstruating women.”

The power of menstruating women should not be underestimated...

duh_swami: The power of menstruating women should not be underestimated...

The Muslims kiss the Black Stone built into a corner of the Kabah in Makkah
posted by : Mohideen

Idol worshipers!

Webster’s Dictionary
Main Entry: wor-ship
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem *worship of the dollar*

Main Entry: idol
1 : a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly : a false god
2 a : a likeness of something b obsolete : PRETENDER, IMPOSTOR
3 : a form or appearance visible but without substance *an enchanted phantom, a lifeless idol - P. B. Shelley*
4 : an object of extreme devotion *a movie idol*; also : IDEAL 2
5 : a false conception : FALLACY

Bar The Muslims kiss the Black Stone built into a corner of the Kabah in Makkah posted by : Mohideen

Idol worshipers!

I would guess the same is true of the Kabah stone.

Shy Guy wrote: "To Loxias, the "ancient Rabbis" are not the ones who established the alternate pronunciation of G-d's Tetragrammaton name in Hebrew. This is oral tradition that goes back to the time of Abraham, if not to Adam. It is G-d's will, not any rabbi's modification."

That last sentence resembles the Islamic way of thinking. It is the type of thinking the modern West has matured beyond. The modern West has matured enough to accept that God's will works through human imperfection in history, it does not reach down and circumvent human imperfection with some perfection known only by an elect group of People Who Know the Truth. (Sure we continue to have some Christians and Jews who think this way, but they are a tiny minority, whereas in Islam, that type of thinking represents the vast majority.)

Wow! Is everybody riled up here or what? Look, if Arabic-speaking Christians really want to use the word 'Allah' to describe God, then let them. The most important thing is the believer's mind and heart are changed (the second birth). That God is both merciful and just, loves us very much, is sovereign, and sent His Son Jesus, whom He allowed to be crucified. This is the crux of the argument, I believe. The idea of salvation through grace and not works is a biblical doctrine that is not to be found in the Koran or other religious text should also be obvious. No, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is NOT the 'Allah' of the Koran, Hadith, and Sunna should be blazingly obvious. However, it only becomes obvious when we read the Bible and Koran FOR OURSELVES! So if the speakers of Arabic wishes to call God 'Allah', then let them. I cannot, and that is my personal choice. Thank you.

Frankly, Metaxy, I don't give a damn!

If you don't like the fact, so be it. If you wish to disprove it, then please do so.

The "West has matured"? In many ways no. IMO, it's taken many a moral step backward. I don't qualify that as maturity at all.

"Elect group of People Who Know the Truth"? I'm not stopping you. And we can't all be right. So at the end, someone here knows and someone else doesn't.

Robert Spencer wrote: "to refer to "Allah" is to refer to the God of Islam and the Qur'an. That is in fact not true."

While beth's views seem a bit stubbornly resistant to unremarkable facts of culture & language -- it is silly to deny that an Arabic word for "God" is in fact a word for "God" -- still, Spencer here is being disingenuous and abstract. The fact is that language does not exist in a vacuum apart from culture and history, and in culture and history (through massive military expansion and imperialism) the Muslims have for centuries appropriated the word "Allah" (and indeed the entire Arabic language) and used it to beat people over the head and cudgel them around the arms and kneecaps. Only on a purely abstract, rarified level may we lean back with sherry in hand and agree that the Arabic language and the Arabic word "Allah" are not overwhelmingly tainted with Islamic Jihad & Dhimmitude.

Regarding and studying language apart from culture & history is like regarding and studying a butterfly dead and pinned to a page in a dusty library.

Wow! Even Johnny Cash has been resurrected!

Shy Guy, actually I mistakenly attributed the wrong idea to you. It was Loxias who (in the words of his you quoted)apparently believes in an Absolute Truth that operates apart from the mysteriously imperfect medium of imperfect humans. It's odd that you didn't simply tell me, "Hey, it was Loxias, not me, who said that".

We Jews have the custom of kissing the Western Wall when we visit. We do not worship the wall nor attribute to it any divine or supernatural powers.
I would guess the same is true of the Kabah stone.
Shy Guy

There is no divinity attached to the Black Stone. Tradition numbered 667, Volume 2 of Sahih Al-Bukhari is one among the many evidences.
===
Narrated Abis bin Rabia
'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you
are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's
Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."
===

Thanks Shy Guy

Metaxy,

Hey, it was Loxias, not me, who said that!

What is the root of the Arabic word "Allah"? What attribute(s) of G-d does the word refer/allude to?
Shy Guy

From http://www.muslim.org/islam/allah.htm we find:
===
In Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon the words ilah (god) and Allah occur under the root A-L-H
===

A search produced no entries. The URLs are:

http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=A-L-H§ion=0&translation=str&oq=&sr=1

http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=A-L-H§ion=0&translation=nsn&oq=&sr=1

I might not be searching with the correct representation of the root. So, if some one could perform the search with the root information given, there might be a resolution.

However, we find from http://www.muslim.org/islam/allah.htm the following also:
===
Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon (which is based on classical Arabic dictionaries), says under the word Allah, while citing many linguistical authorities:
"Allah ... is a proper name applied to the Being Who exists necessarily, by Himself, comprising all the attributes of perfection, a proper name denoting the true god ... the al being inseparable from it, not derived..."
Allah is thus a proper name, not derived from anything, and the Al is inseparable from it. The word al-ilah (the god) is a different word.
===

It looks like the word ‘Allah’ was used by Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, first time to refer to God Almighty. Thus, the Rev 2:17 is indeed satisfied by Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. The URL http://www.muslim.org/islam/allah.htm refers to other prophesies as well.

Shy

And again, from the time that David composed that Psalm until the time the Christians twisted the literal interpretations, no learned Jew would have understood what you were yapping about nor did they have problems understanding the simple Hebrew used in that verse.

It was no Christian who twisted this text it was interpreted by a Jew named Jesus of Nazareth.

Which overrules all previous and present interpretations :)

The Word of God emanates from the lips of Jesus Revelations 1:14-16.

This Word can come from any part of Scripture and it did for the prophets it occurs like this :

" I was was reading the book of Wisdom and my gaze fastened on the word "Truth" and as I watched this word peeeled itself off of the page and presented itself before me as a great Two Edged Sword it was made of pure power and a nuclear light emanated from it, the Bible had also transformed itself and I could see all the stories come to life, and men hurrying on horseback off to war, the pages flickered past and each page was like a video story of the events therein, then the Sword spoke, and I grew very afraid of the sound of his voice, He said to me "Who are you to stand before me and darken my counsel" and I asked Him "Why me" and he answered me "I can do as I like with my own property, everything belongs to me, all things are mine". Then the Sword began to spin first to the left then to the right and I felt terror as my life was laid open before him, day after day, and the faster he span the more terror I knew then he stopped and looked up and gazed as a great dark cloud gathered, this cloud was black and grew ever blacker, just then He leapt into the cloud and pierced it and he pierced it again and again, then he really quickly tore into the cloud so that I could hardly count how many times it had pierced it, until the cloud started to become less dark then it began to lighten until it began to brighten, then shine, and then the cloud was no more and I could see the Sword still piercing away, then He leapt back to me and continued my Judgement, "So " he said "they beleive you" then he proceeded show me his zeal for judgement I was at the edge of the Sword and his judgements became unbearable and I asked Him in an agony of desperation "Can anyone survive this judgement" (he could find fault even with what might be good intentions as they were the product of ego) he answered me "Even though the whole world stand before me, it would fall because of me" this calls for understanding as he judges by his standard not man's.
His zeal was overwhelming and I felt that I would die unless I closed the Bible in my hands, and I managed to do so, instantly the light went out leaving me a quivering wreck, when suddenly he erupted back out of the Bible and finished my judgement, and it was absolutely terrifying, he took me to the end of my life, judging me for matters not then known to me (at this moment I know this statement has been scrutinised by him)at the end of my Life he tells me "Another , another one saved in the end" yet his zeal and his anger are unabated his judgement is "at the edge of the sword" but at that time I can tell you I do not resist neither am i afraid and I have the appearance of a 10 year old child.

The Cloud is the Internet

Mohideen Ibramsha: It looks like the word ‘Allah’ was used by Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, first time to refer to God Almighty. Thus, the Rev 2:17 is indeed satisfied by Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. The URL http://www.muslim.org/islam/allah.htm refers to other prophesies as well.

Shy

No I am not a network admin ! :)

John 16 :7-15

John 3:31-36

John 8 :45

breadwinner

Paul 13:62

George 3:7

Ringo 6:4

(must be some secret code)

Shy

You have no way of explaining the Holy Spirit so you will allow Muslims to get away with their plagiarism of the Jewish and Christian texts.

Another thing we christians, never abandonded the Apochrypha because we understand it as God's Word, and through it he can reach the people of today, all it needs is for the word TRUTH to be on the page and he can verify or deny anything contrary to his teaching.

John 3 :31 -..

I am from above my teaching is not mine but him who sent me.

Below is a simple thesis built around the memories which I have always had, I welcome any discussion which is faith based and I will ignore any denominational stance which might be a blinkered approach, this is my experience and as such it is my talents or spiritual currency

=========
A Simple Catechism states, that the powers of the soul are Memory, Will and Understanding.

My intention is to dwell on memory in conjunction with the Gospel of Jesus Christ; but we will address more subjects as we go on, in particular every verse alluding to life after death or life before birth!

In doing so I do no wrong, as someone who knows, it would be wrong for me not to disclose what I know, every other person can safely adhere to doctrine, this knowledge to me, is so many talents, to hide what is spirit in the earth is unacceptable, Matthew 25-14-30.

To you my readers many things may seem particularly childish this is a good sign as any technicalities would limit the readership, and God works so that everyone may understand.

The issue of life is Salvation, so in actual fact this is the main subject I am addressing and this is by no means a casual exercise, as the case is clear "In God there is no Iniquity".

The model I wish to use is that of Ezekiel Ch.18-v32 and Ch.33-v8-20.from this we can see we have a merciful Father.

My perception of God is that he knows my actions from my thoughts; my actions are born in my mind so they are open to God. In telling you this I am saying clearly that God can predispose himself to whether our actions are pleasing or displeasing.

Now bear with me here I want to make a point I may seem to be childish! I once heard a story of a railroad worker who had lost his foot due to having seen a carriage roll away and putting his foot on the track to stop it, but for the life of him he didn’t know why he did it. Now looking on the lighter side it was a ‘one off ‘ but I want you to examine this as a human trait. For whatever reason this man thought that stopping the carriage was for the common good. This subject, the common good, will crop up again and it is very important especially in relation to God’s mercy, as it is really a mirror of His Mercy, being the measure you give responding to what you receive.

Now let me tell you a story from my oldest memories. I have no names for anyone because only when you live have you got a name, it’s only when you come into the world that you are given a name, but soldier, king, prince and statesman are identifiable by their dress. However you should keep in mind that I am sharing more than this experience with you and that all I tell you will help you to understand the complete picture!

-======00000000000ooooooooooooooo000000000ooooooooooooooo00000000000000ooo-======

The Journeys of Christopher Cross

The young soldier stood amongst the pine trees, the early morning calm was mirrored by the humdrum quiet of the camp, men going about their everyday business, preparing or repairing their equipment, writing letters, reading and resting.

The young soldier laid his carbine against a tree and listened to the quietness. There in the background a small sound attracted his attention, gradually the sound claimed more and more of his attention, ever closer and louder it became interspersed with shouts and gunfire. Then men poured by, running like deer, in total confusion, like in a dream. The young soldier watched helplessly, giving no heed to his comrade’s urgent advice to run.

He found himself frozen. Then, coming towards him, he heard the stealthy advance only the hunter makes.
His instinct took over and he found himself cover in the undergrowth.

The young soldier sensed that were other enemy troopers nearby and it was desperately necessary to leave, he would be discovered he knew, so, with his bayonet in his hand he launched himself at the enemy soldier. Who turned just in time to fend off the assault, but because they were so close, he had to discard his carbine and fight hand to hand.

In total silence both men struggled, each knowing that the next person on the scene may not be friendly. The young soldier felt that he could defeat his enemy, but at the critical moment would find that his adversary could get out of trouble, the struggle increased in intensity and with a will both men set out to kill each other. The young soldier held his bayonet with both hands and was driving it downward into his enemy’s chest, who was fending off the blow and holding the young soldier’s wrists. His bayonet connected with the enemy soldier’s tunic, exposing a photograph of a woman and a young girl. On seeing this he immediately stopped fighting as he felt that this man had more reason to live than he and in that split seconds hesitation the enemy soldier turned the bayonet backwards and upwards into the young soldier’s chest.

Ascension

The spirit of the young soldier looked on the scene, and saw the young soldier’s body and sitting astride him the enemy soldier with the photograph in his hand. The enemy soldier was in a state of shock - he couldn’t understand how such a dangerous situation could end so inexplicably. There were other soldiers present, companions of the enemy soldier, who were comforting him. They were rough men and the young soldier’s spirit found them distasteful.

The spirit of the young soldier tried to speak but could not, if he could have he would have comforted the enemy soldier, there was a barrier between them like a six-inch plate glass window, he could not hear what was being said. He also found he could not pray and he couldn’t determine whether it was night or day; even so he consciously wished well to the enemy soldier. Then he started to ascend.

As he arose the soldier drifted into a feeling of forgetfulness for he had many recriminating thoughts against him (if only he had done this and not that and many feelings like this assailed him). When the ascent stopped and the mist cleared he found himself in the entrance to a hallway, he seemed to know this hallway,

At the end of the hallway there was a larger more open area although he could see nothing more than inside the portal he felt a sense of dread about the thought of entering it, he froze not daring to take even another step, he knew that this place was important in that he had to make a choice of where to go and there was the possibility he might walk further than he should, which could be disastrous, or that he would be denied access to the safe place he sought.

Just then two men passed him by. One was a tall bearded man in a check jacket, the other was a plump man with thick black hair in a corduroy jacket, this man too was in a certain amount of trepidation too but his friend was almost casual saying "Ah, here it is" and holding the narrow door open for his companion before he too entered followed smartly by the young soldier.

The Room Where History Meets Fact

Once inside the two men were nowhere to be seen, the young soldier was still in his uniform, he was in a very large room where many people were gathered, every style of dress imaginable from bygone eras were represented,

After a while he came upon a group of people very much in discussion, the young soldier joined them and listened in, the main speaker, a notable looking man was sharing reminiscences of his life in the body, he had been a famous figure and the young soldier recognised him from his own personal academic studies, the notable looking man's audience were rapt in their attention of this reminiscence, the young soldier too was engrossed up until he heard the notable looking man say something out of line with what he had learned from his academic studies.

Politely he interjected and brought it to everyone’s attention, whereupon the distinguished looking mans face became very angry and just like " that " everyone disappeared, with a sense of shock the young soldier realised that emotions like anger really were explosive here,

With that understood he willed himself elsewhere and closed his eyes,

Embryonica

When he reopened them he saw a face that was so wizened, and old that age as he had ever known it was shockingly challenged, the face was that of a sleeper, there was no body with it, to his right and left were other faces each much the same as the first, in between each head there was a blackness, only his eyes were open,

He could see that the position he occupied was part of an orbit of concentric circles, the cycle he was in gave a good view of each of the circles, he could see into the centre, but could not see what was the epicentre, the circles were smaller towards the centre, even though each head was enveloped in thick blackness, they were clearly visible, as though the light emanated from each head,

He understood that as everyone here was so similar, so he too must be! There was no light here and thick blackness enveloped each head,

Directly opposite him in between the space occupied by two heads, a mans arm appeared, this arm vigorously rubbed away the darkness in front of him, there was more darkness behind it but golden letters and unknown characters appeared scrolling past the space which had been vigorously rubbed,

These letters and characters were not openly understood to the witnessing head, or so it appeared yet when they had scrolled past the witnessing head (which it appeared was the only head to have its eyes open) exclaimed just one word.

" PERFECT "

As soon as this word had left his mouth the head was snatched out of the orbit it had been occupying and was borne downwards a great rushing sound accompanied this activity,

Many planets sped by, then the Earth came into view, at this sight the spirit within the head (which had been conceived when it had opened its eyes) halted the descent,

The Great Tribulation? But I have been here before! He said,

Then one of the angels who had snatched him from the orbit he had been occupying, above spoke saying " So long as you live you shall not see War, the second one then said "You shall not live long",

They, the angels were distinguishable by their light, as one was transparently dark and one was transparently light,

These statements seemed reasonable to the newly conceived spirit so without further ado their descent continued, the Earth growing ever larger accepted the three messengers!

Christopher Cross � 12 April, 1997

The word 'Allah' is not a name. It is just the Arabic translation of the English word 'God'. Every religious group has got a god or gods and each god has got his/her own name. This group has got a god/elah and its name is Buddha, and that group has got a god/elah whose name is Dagon .... a god/elah ... Ashtaroth, Moloc, Allat, Uzzah, Manat, Hubal ... all are gods. Our God, as Eglish or Arabic speaking Christians is God/Allah, but His Name is not God/Allah. His Name is Jehovah/Yahweh. In addetion, the first deity who got the title 'Allah' was, historically and archeologically, the moon god in Elka'bah. When you ask Muslims about the name of their god, they would say 'God/Allah'. It does not make sense. The big issue is not the name, but the attributes. The attributes of the Islamic god are essencially different from the attributes of the true God of the Bible.
Abbas
An Arabic speaking Christian

My dear Metaxy:

You say: "Spencer here is being disingenuous and abstract. The fact is that language does not exist in a vacuum apart from culture and history...Only on a purely abstract, rarified level may we lean back with sherry in hand and agree that the Arabic language and the Arabic word 'Allah' are not overwhelmingly tainted with Islamic Jihad & Dhimmitude."

While you are enjoying your sherry, I hope you reflect on the fact that you obviously have never made the acquaintance of any Arabic-speaking Christians, have never prayed in Arabic, and clearly don't have the slightest idea of what you are talking about.

There is nothing rarified or abstract about Arabic-speaking Christians, and your apparent demand that they cease praying to God in their own language because of the use to which Muslims put it makes about as much sense as demanding that English-speaking Christians stop praying to "God" because non-Christians refer to their gods also as "God."

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Anyone who speaks fluent Hebrew has no problem understanding that the Arabic term Allah sounds an awful like like the original "El", "Eloha" and "Elohim".
Shy Guy

I do not know Hebrew. Unless there is further explanation, we have to go with the following:
===
Later on, in numerous places, we see a much shorter term used, "El" and "Eloha", to refer to G-d, in the sense of unlimited power and abilities. – Shy Guy
===

Indeed, Allah has unlimited power and abilities. The very first verse of the Holy Quran is:
===
In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
===

Allah is Gracious to the believers in the Hereafter and Merciful to all the creations in this life. Chapter 112 of the Holy Quran gives the most important attributes of Allah. Quoting, we have:
===
In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. and there is none like unto Him.
===

Does the G-d of the Jews have the same attributes as given in Chapter 112 above? The word Allah might sound similar to El, Eloha and Elohim. If the attributes are different, Allah is unique and is not used in the earlier scriptures.

I believe the topic is "May the Arabic word Allah be used by Christians." It isn't does the word Allah translate into what people of other faiths consider as G-d.

This is ultimately a question that Christians will have to answer for themselves. Will, or do, Christians feel comfortable using a word that is tainted by so much history of war, murder and bloodshed, a word that has theological connotations that do not exist within Christianity, or Christian theology? To this, I would have to say, it is a sticky question.

Many proselytizing religions use words that the two faiths have in common, but they use the word in a different context/with a different underlying meaning. They will say to the new convert, "Look, you believe in G-d, so do we. You believe in living a life of peace, so do we. You believe in ..., etc." What they don't tell the potential convert, however, is that they have a radically different meaning in the faith of the person who is trying to proselytize the other person. Instead, they let the potential convert labor under the delusion that the words mean the same thing. Then, after the person is hooked into their system, they slowly redefine these words a little at a time. It is just enough to get the person to change the former definition for the new one. It is basically, bait and switch, on a grander philosophical and ideological level.

For those Christians who are aware of this ploy, I can understand why they might have difficulties with using a word fraught with such loaded history. Then again, there are others who don't seem to mind (or are not aware of) the issue. I suppose this is why the Copts decided to adopt another word - in order to make a distinction between their G-d and the G-d of the Muslim religion.

Can't really blame them.

On the other hand, I suppose the ongoing existence of a minority of Arabic-speaking Christians who profess belief and worship in an "Allah" who has a Son who is also God along with the Third Person the Holy Spirit is a deliciously subversive element in the Muslim world (one that continues to be inhumanely oppressed, sad to say, though...)

K.C., sorry it took me so long to reply. I will take your word for it, although it is hard to accept. I know that Christians and muslims do not share faith in the same diety, just ask a muslim. But the word Allah means G-d in arabic...OK. I can believe that...but the nature of our G-d and their allah are opposites. I still believe that islam calls an imposter G-d.

the word Allah means G-d in arabic...OK. I can believe that...but the nature of our G-d and their allah are opposites
I should have made it clear that I mean islam's god, not the arabic G-d.

Many proselytizing religions use words that the two faiths have in common, but they use the word in a different context/with a different underlying meaning. They will say to the new convert, "Look, you believe in G-d, so do we. You believe in living a life of peace, so do we. You believe in ..., etc." What they don't tell the potential convert, however, is that they have a radically different meaning in the faith of the person who is trying to proselytize the other person. Instead, they let the potential convert labor under the delusion that the words mean the same thing. Then, after the person is hooked into their system, they slowly redefine these words a little at a time. It is just enough to get the person to change the former definition for the new one. It is basically, bait and switch, on a grander philosophical and ideological level.
Paula

There is no bait and switch in Islam. We do not confuse a person of another religion by using words – same words with different meanings. That is why, it is crucial to this discussion to understand the meaning of the word ‘Allah’ as used by Muslims to help the Arabic Christians whether they could use the word ‘Allah.’

The Muslims have just to convey the Message. Quoting 3:20 of the Holy Quran, we have:
===
So if they dispute with thee say: “I have submitted my whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me.” And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: “Do ye (also) submit yourselves?” If they do, they are in right guidance. But if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah’s sight are (all) His servants.
===

When a non-Muslim embraces Islam, it is to his / her benefit only, as given in 49:17 of the Holy Quran, quoted below:
===
They impress upon thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, “Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the Faith, if ye be true and sincere.”
===

Hence, let us really understand the meaning of the word ‘Allah.’

the moon god in Elka'bah. When you ask Muslims about the name of their god, they would say 'God/Allah'. It does not make sense. The big issue is not the name, but the attributes. The attributes of the Islamic god are essencially different from the attributes of the true God of the Bible.
Abbas
An Arabic speaking Christian
Posted by: Abbas

Abbas – THANKYOU for that post above. Pity no one has bothered to really read it (judging by the comments coming after it)

The Creator of the Universe HAS A NAME. That name is as Abbas says – the Hebrew Yeshua or YHWH.

I would not meet Abbas in the street and call him,

“Hey Man, how are you!”

It would be rude and obnoxious, especially if I was his friend/professed to love him (Abbas I am assuming you’re a bloke – please forgive me if you’re not!)

Rather I would say,

“Hey Abbas, how are you?”

I would use his name. Yeshua HAS A name. It’s not Allah, or God. These are but generic names, and as Abbas points out Allah has dubious origins, relating back to the moon god of Arabia.

Yeshua is his name (Shy guy I know you will disapprove, but we are talking names, not theology, and I’m speaking from the Christian point of view). The apostles used Yeshua, YHWH, not Allah, which as some have stated, including a Muslim, IS NOT IN THE BIBLE (that in itself should raise alam bells that a pedophile prophet would use Allah, and not the terms the apostles used).

What’s in a name? Identity that’s what! I for don’t believe for a minute that Yeshua would associate himself with the “God/Allah” who committed 9/11, with the “God” who murders and kills millions of infidels a year; let alone with a “profit” who slept with 9 year old girls (are you to looking for a “child” wife Mohideen Ibramsha?? Just so you can be like that pedophile Mohammed??). How do I know this? Would the Muslims use Yeshua to pray to? Or YHWH? The question is NO!!! They know to well that they are worshiping Allah, which is why they call him just that.

Would the Creator of the Universe really give Himself such a generic name? All through the old testament, and the new testament HE was clear on his name.

Allah was never mentioned. Yeshua IS NOT Allah. I pray to Yeshua/YHWH, the Father in Heaven, not Allah of Mecca. I have mentally tried to defy my upbringing by praying to "God", but rather now say "Yeshua" or as Christ did, "Our Father in Heaven".

Like I said, Indonesian Christians are lured away from their Christianity thanks to generic name calling of “Allah/God”, by Muslims saying Allah is god - so "come back to Mosque".

Yeshua used the Hebrew, and as much as that hurts our pride to admit it, through all those years of anti-semetism, which is why I believe the Bible translators first started using LORD and GOD – they didn’t want to be seen to be doing anything “Jewish”. YHWH says he is a jealous god –why wouldn’t he also be jealous over his name? Don't insult Him, use the names the Apostle's did, and that HE also used in his book (as in the Original Hebrew and Greek - get the "Complete Hebrew Bible" translated into English by an ex full on Jew (in terms of his religion). The original names used are left in, in both the old and new testaments - no "God" or "LORD", but real names are used. By doing this it adds a whole new dimension to the Bible - and understanding of YHWH is deeper.

I do not much care if some call the Eternal allah.
Should they be using a pagan title for the One-True-God then He, God, will correct them.
The title allah used by the pagan moslems is another name for hubal the moon god of mecca.The stupid rock these dimwit pagans kiss and dance around pre-dates pagan islam and is also pagan in origin.
The Eternal of the Bible is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Father of Jesus Christ.
As for the misguided moslem clown who claims that the pagan koran is the final word from God - what utter drivel, blasphemous drivel at that. That Book which we call the Old Testament has over 300 prophecies regarding the Messiah. They have all been completely fulfilled. Then along comes this tribal, illiterate twit of an arab who claims to have written the final bible - and this pagan book disowns Jesus as the Son of the Eternal, and thus is total lying garbage.
The Old and New Testaments complete each other and complete the writings of the Eternal. These insane,lying, bloodthirsty, bomb throwing,mysoginist, suicide fanatics who are absolute pagans, according to the Word of God, need to take a long shower. numbat

Mohideen Ibramsha: Chapter 112 of the Holy Quran gives the most important attributes of Allah. Quoting, we have: === In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful 1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; 2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; 3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; 4. and there is none like unto Him. ===

Does the G-d of the Jews have the same attributes as given in Chapter 112 above? The word Allah might sound similar to El, Eloha and Elohim. If the attributes are different, Allah is unique and is not used in the earlier scriptures.

This was not news to me.

breadwinner: Shy, You have no way of explaining the Holy Spirit

so you will allow Muslims to get away with their plagiarism of the Jewish and Christian texts.

Shy Guy

That is interesting, but I believe much different then the way Moslems view the Kabah. The Kabah predates Mohammadanism. I believe that Islamic legend believes the Kabah was white and has become black by absorbing Moslems sins and even makes the preposterous claim the Kabah is mentioned in the Bible, Psa 118:22, Dan, Mat, ect. Mohammad called it “the right hand of god on earth”. Which of course goes back to the fact that Mohammad was way to dim-witted to understand metaphors and also says volumes about current and past Islamic intellectual levels. I am under the impression the Kabah was a pagan rock god that Moahmmad claimed as Islamic to make Islam appear more palatable to those certain pagan Arabs.

Bar, you may be right in the origins of the Kabah. I've heard both sides of the story.

But the fact of the matter is that the Quran and Muslims of today reject paganism. They are monotheistic. While it might be true that there are Muslims today in certain parts of the world that retain paganistic customs from prior beliefs, that is also true of Christian converts in many countries where paganism was and still is popular. Fact of the matter is that paganism is a sin under Islamic law.

Shall we discuss the origins of Christmas trees?

Adding to Shy's comment here:

"There is no Christian concept of "holy spirit" in the Torah."

The translation of what you might refer to as "Holy Spirit" in the Hebrew is "ruach Hakodesh." Ruach = wind, or breath, HaKodesh = the Holy one, also a name denoting G-d. It is like separating G-d's breath from his Being; they are one and the same. If we were to talk about it using you as an example, it would be ruach habreadwinner. Your breath/spirit is the same as you. They are one and the same.

Breadwinner, you conflate G-d and Jesus. While your theology says the two are the same, other people do not share this belief. Therefore, using it as a proof text to explain your point as a way of coming to an agreement will not work with those who do not accept you proof texts - aka the New Testament. Sorry.

I do, however, appreciate your comment: "Like I said, Indonesian Christians are lured away from their Christianity thanks to generic name calling of “Allah/God”, by Muslims saying Allah is god - so "come back to Mosque"."

Which is what I was trying to say above. Because the concept of Allah is tainted with the attributes of the Muslim faith as brought forth in the Qur'an, it would probably behoove the Christians who speak Arabic in the Middle East and elsewhere, to move away from the word altogether. This would reduce confusion and make it clear that the two concepts are not one and the same.

Adding to Shy's comment here:

"There is no Christian concept of "holy spirit" in the Torah."

The translation of what you might refer to as "Holy Spirit" in the Hebrew is "ruach Hakodesh." Ruach = wind, or breath, HaKodesh = the Holy one, also a name denoting G-d. It is like separating G-d's breath from his Being; they are one and the same. If we were to talk about it using you as an example, it would be ruach habreadwinner. Your breath/spirit is the same as you. They are one and the same.

Breadwinner, you conflate G-d and Jesus. While your theology says the two are the same, other people do not share this belief. Therefore, using it as a proof text to explain your point as a way of coming to an agreement will not work with those who do not accept you proof texts - aka the New Testament. Sorry.

I do, however, appreciate your comment: "Like I said, Indonesian Christians are lured away from their Christianity thanks to generic name calling of “Allah/God”, by Muslims saying Allah is god - so "come back to Mosque"."

Which is what I was trying to say above. Because the concept of Allah is tainted with the attributes of the Muslim faith as brought forth in the Qur'an, it would probably behoove the Christians who speak Arabic in the Middle East and elsewhere, to move away from the word altogether. This would reduce confusion and make it clear that the two concepts are not one and the same.

Sorry again for the double post... dratted boards!

"There is no bait and switch in Islam. We do not confuse a person of another religion by using words – same words with different meanings. That is why, it is crucial to this discussion to understand the meaning of the word ‘Allah’ as used by Muslims to help the Arabic Christians whether they could use the word ‘Allah.’"

Mohideen,

Does this mean that when you are discussing religion with a Christian, who has no concept of Islam, you point out immediately, from the get go, the differences between your faith and how it views Allah from how Christianity views G-d? Do you give them the shock treatment? Or do you wait until you can explain all of the details at a time that the person can take the news?

.

paula: Does this mean that when you are discussing religion with a Christian, who has no concept of Islam, you point out immediately, from the get go, the differences between your faith and how it views Allah from how Christianity views G-d? Do you give them the shock treatment? Or do you wait until you can explain all of the details at a time that the person can take the news?

I have no idea whether Muslim proseltyzers speak differently when going on a 1-on-1 basis in attempting to convince a Christian to convert.

This is much unlike many a Christian missionary group, who will lie through their teeth and even cover up the fact that they are Christian in order to infiltrate Jewish communities and convert unsuspecting Jews.

so you will allow Muslims to get away with their plagiarism of the Jewish and Christian texts. [breadwinner]

What would you like me to do? Sue the Muslim world for copyright infringement? Besides, there's much more plagiarized Torah text in the New Testament than there is in the Quran. [Shy Guy]

Plagarism? By the same author? Quoting 3:3 of the Holy Quran, we have:
===
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus).
===

The above is emphasized in many places in the Holy Quran. One more example: 46:12 of the Holy Quran, quoted below:
===
And before this, was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy: and this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust, and as Glad Tidings to those who do right.
===

So, the author of the Book of Moses, peace be upon him, the Book of Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, and the Book of Muhammad, peace be upon him is the same. They were given in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic respectively. So they are three editions of the same Book in different languages. How can there be plagiarism, when the author – God Almighty – is the same?

Mohideen Ibramsha: So, the author of the Book of Moses, peace be upon him, the Book of Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, and the Book of Muhammad, peace be upon him is the same. They were given in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic respectively. So they are three editions of the same Book in different languages. How can there be plagiarism, when the author – God Almighty – is the same?

Furthermore, Islam makes gross changes to essential Christian beliefs in their own diety and accuses Jews of perpetual lying and corrupting the text of the Torah.

And finally, there is very little connection between the Quran and the Torah in commandments. So to say that the Torah, NT and the Quran are "three editions of the same Book in different languages" is false both from their different, contents, historical narratives, persons highlighted and overall perspective on this world.

Furthermore, Islam makes gross changes to essential Christian beliefs in their own diety and accuses Jews of perpetual lying and corrupting the text of the Torah.
Shy Guy

From the Islamic point of view, the original Holy Torah, the original Holy Bible, and the current uncorrupted Holy Quran are the same. As regards the claim by Judaism that both Christianity and Islam are false, the claim by Christianity that Islam is false, these would naturally be resolved on the Day of Judgment. Unfortunately, then it would be too late. All that we are attempting now is to convince each other in the hope that such discussions would benefit us.

Yes, if the only option is to await the Day of Judgment, we are waiting along with you.

Mohideen Ibramsha: From the Islamic point of view, the original Holy Torah, the original Holy Bible, and the current uncorrupted Holy Quran are the same.

When was the last time you wore Tzizit or Tefilin? Don't know what I'm talking about? Precisely my point!

All that we are attempting now is to convince each other in the hope that such discussions would benefit us.

Yes, if the only option is to await the Day of Judgment, we are waiting along with you.

But Jihadists aren't waiting. They're already making their moves.

"I have no idea whether Muslim proseltyzers speak differently when going on a 1-on-1 basis in attempting to convince a Christian to convert.

Yes, Shy, the 1-on-1 basis was my point. Is it explicitly stated or not?

Mohideen, I believe this question was addressed to you. Please let us know what happens in the 1-on-1 basis.

Hmm.. this might make an interesting field trip.

Mohideen

Can you name the modern fruits of islam?

" by their fruits you shall know them."

May I take a stab at it (no pun intended).

Intolerance
Strife
Murder
Slavery
Rape
Officially sanctioned lying
Moral relativism

Shy Guy

-Shall we discuss the origins of Christmas trees?-

Point well taken and I would also add that I own a large home theater system which some of my Christians friends would consider idol worship.

A point I was trying to make, albeit I did a poor job at it was, we can say we believe such and such, but its our actions that truly count. Mohammad is held in such high regard that anyone speaking ill about him is declared unfit for paradise. I could be wrong, but I don’t believe that Jews or Christians ever treated their prophets in the same manner.
I assume Moslems are equally overzealous with everything Islamic, Kabah, Qur’an, Mecca, etc. So in my opinion that makes it difficult to view Moslems as monotheists, unless monotheism means one god at a time. Your point is well taken, perhaps I should be a little or a lot less dogmatic.

Bar: I own a large home theater system which some of my Christians friends would consider idol worship.

Mohammad is held in such high regard that anyone speaking ill about him is declared unfit for paradise.

Nevertheless, according to Torah law, while speaking against someone publicly regarded as righteous and scholarly has the added sin of desecrating G-d's name, the Torah forbids speaking negatively about the simplest of Jews, even if it's factual talk. So in the greater sense, Moses the Prophet and Shlomo next door are to be accorded similar base levels of respect.

I assume Moslems are equally overzealous with everything Islamic, Kabah, Qur’an, Mecca, etc. So in my opinion that makes it difficult to view Moslems as monotheists, unless monotheism means one god at a time.

However, other religions revere their holy books and sites, too, though they usually don't slaughter and go bananas should these be desecrated. But Muslims do not worship Mecca. They revere it as a holy city.

I revere Jerusalem as a holy city and Israel as the holy land. I do not worship them.

Shy Guy

idle worship, LOL. And with the recent addition of HDTV, idle worship reaches new heights in stunning clarity and sound.

Moslems may worship a god, but by definition it is not the Judeo-Christian G_d.

I agree, there is a difference between holding something in high esteem and worshiping it.

Adding to Shy's comment here:

>>This was not news to me.

breadwinner: Shy, You have no way of explaining the Holy Spirit

There is no Christian concept of "holy spirit" in the Torah. Why should I explain your newfangled beliefs? You don't catch on, do you?!

so you will allow Muslims to get away with their plagiarism of the Jewish and Christian texts.All powerful WORD leaped from heaven , from the Royal Throne, and into the land that was doomed a stern warrior carrying the sharp SWORD of thy authentic command, and stood and filled all things with death, and touched heaven while standing on the earth.

. Ezekiel 21 (read it all ) The Word of the Lord came to me "Son of Man, set your face toward JERUSALEM and preach against the sanctuaries ; prophesy against the land of Israel and say to the land of Israel; Thus say's the Lord; Behold I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of it's sheath, and will cut off from you both righteous and wicked , therefore my sword shall go out of its sheath to all flesh from North to South, and ALL FLESH shall know that I the Lord have drawn my sword out of its sheath; it will not be sheathed again . Sigh therefore, son of man; sigh with breaking heart and bitter grief before their eyes. And when they say to you, "Why do you sigh" you shal say to them "because of the tidings, when it comes, every heart will melt and all hands will be feeble, every spirit will faint and all knees will be weak as water , Behold it comes and it will be fulfilled" says the Lord God .
And the Word of the Lord came to me :
"Son of man, prophesy and say,
Thus says the LOrd God, Say:
A Sword , a sword is sharpened and also polished
sharpened for slaughter
polished to flash like lightning

.Matthew 10:31 34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—

Therefore a distinct perception of God assigning duties to his WORD is to be understood: this makes sense as God Our Father cannot allow himself to be put in a position where a man may see HIM as the man could not live. Below a simplistic approach by Paula does not take into account that a the Word of God has an intelligence all his own with which he serves God , and IS God, This same service to God was in the forefront of Jesus mind when he obeyed the will of God, what really cuts the mustard about the deity of Jesus is that
a, Man cannot appear before God Our Father on his own merit .

b, Man cannot appear before the Spirit of God because he must endure Judgement. and lets assume I know what I am talking about, this Judgement takes into account that Gods Mercy was rejected, God's Word was rejected, and Christs sacrifice was belittled. Abraham was tested by God to the point that he was willing to sacrifice Isaac, The lesson is clear Jesus was Gods Son and the Lamb "The Lord will provide".

c, God and the Spirit of Truth (the Word) are looking for those in Christ.

Once it is understood that Jesus rose from the dead every word that he has ever uttered is "THE WORD OF GOD" and he admits who he will.

Paula; The translation of what you might refer to as "Holy Spirit" in the Hebrew is "ruach Hakodesh." Ruach = wind, or breath, HaKodesh = the Holy one, also a name denoting G-d. It is like separating G-d's breath from his Being; they are one and the same. If we were to talk about it using you as an example, it would be ruach habreadwinner. Your breath/spirit is the same as you. They are one and the same.;

My breath does not live, neither does it have an intelligence the Holy Spirit describes himself as having faculties far superior to humanity.

.Wisdom 7:21And all such things as are hid and not foreseen, I have learned: for wisdom, which is the worker of all things, taught me.

22For in her is the spirit of understanding: holy, one, manifold, subtile, eloquent, active, undefiled, sure, sweet, loving that which is good, quick, which nothing hindereth, beneficent,

23Gentle, kind, steadfast, assured, secure, having all power, overseeing all things, and containing all spirits, intelligible, pure, subtile.

24For wisdom is more active than all active things: and reacheth everywhere by reason of her purity.

25For she is a vapour of the power of God, and a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God: and therefore no defiled thing cometh into her.

26For she is the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God's majesty, and the image of his goodness.

27And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself the same, she reneweth all things, and through nations conveyeth herself into holy souls, she maketh the friends of God and prophets.

28For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with wisdom.

29For she is more beautiful than the sun, and above all the order of the stars: being compared with the light, she is found before it.

30For after this cometh night, but no evil can overcome wisdom.

Paula: Breadwinner, you conflate G-d and Jesus. While your theology says the two are the same, other people do not share this belief. Therefore, using it as a proof text to explain your point as a way of coming to an agreement will not work with those who do not accept you proof texts - aka the New Testament. Sorry.

God and Jesus are ONE, made in the same image, Jesus represents humanity in the witness of the Holy Spirit, those who follow Jesus will not face Judgement because they have made peace by becoming Justified thay can ascend to the house of God, those who believe in redemption in his sacred body and blood, will rise at the resurrection.

This is not possible for people who deny his death and resurrection, Jews are in Gods hands and it may be that God will have to "refine them like the finest Gold" but it says in the Book of Isaiah 65: 11-3
I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask of me ;
I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me.
I said" Here am I, Here am I" to a nation who did not Call on my name.
I spread out my hands all the day to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good ; following their own devices;
a people who provoke me continually.

Muslims deny Christ's death saying it was Simon of Cyrene who took his place they must make up their minds about this or face Judgement, yet they can get into Gods house if they can accomplish an act of unconscious grace (like the Soldier in my story above) this would mean that they can avoid judgement yet would not have the ability to take part in the resurrection, they would have no way of generating their bodies because the have not washed in the blood of the lamb neither do they know Jesus or his sacrifice. They would then have to 'come back into the world' again

That is the basis of Dominus Jesus

Zephaniah 14:9 speaking of the 'Day of the Lord' says "And the Lord will become King over the whole earth ; on that day the Lord will be ONE and his name ONE.

Therefore Monotheism is moot

Matthew 13:51 53

51"Have you understood all these things?" Jesus asked.
"Yes," they replied.
52He said to them, "Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old."

Deleted a few lines accidently fron previous post

Adding to Shy's comment here:

>>This was not news to me.

breadwinner: Shy, You have no way of explaining the Holy Spirit

There is no Christian concept of "holy spirit" in the Torah. Why should I explain your newfangled beliefs? You don't catch on, do you?!

so you will allow Muslims to get away with their plagiarism of the Jewish and Christian texts.All powerful WORD leaped from heaven , from the Royal Throne, and into the land that was doomed a stern warrior carrying the sharp SWORD of thy authentic command, and stood and filled all things with death, and touched heaven while standing on the earth.

.

Breadwinner, was there a point being made in your post. It's lost on me. I did find your bottom line most amusing:

Zephaniah 14:9 speaking of the 'Day of the Lord' says "And the Lord will become King over the whole earth ; on that day the Lord will be ONE and his name ONE.

Therefore Monotheism is moot.
Therefore Monotheism is. Period. Thank you for the proof.

I should have understood. More self deception by Christian abuse of the Torah's original Hebrew text and meaning. Backtracking:

breadwinner: Zephaniah 14:9 speaking of the 'Day of the Lord' says "And the Lord will become King over the whole earth ; on that day the Lord will be ONE and his name ONE.


Therefore Monotheism is moot.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD: (KJV)

In Judaism, we call this verse the "Shema," which is the word for "hear." It is our fundamental declaration of faith.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: HASHEM is our G-d, HASHEM is the One and Only. (Artscroll)

A slightly different wording, but the meaning is the same. When I was a child, the translation I was taught was "Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our G-d, the Lord is One!" Believe it or not, some Christians try to prove that the Trinity is in this verse from Deuteronomy! Let us observe the Hebrew rendering:

Deuteronomy 6:4 Shema, Yisrael, Hashem Elokeinu, Hashem Echad. (Hebrew Transliteration)

Literally, the verse reads "Hear Israel Hashem Our G-d Hashem One." The word "echad" in Hebrew means "one." There are instances, as some Christians are quick to point at, where the word "echad" denotes a compound unity. They point to passages in Genesis, for instance:

Genesis 1:5 G-d called to the light: "Day," and to the darkness He called: "Night." And there was evening and there was morning, one day. (Artscroll)

The word "one" used here is "echad." Christians point to other instances where "echad" is used to denote a compound unity, and as such, they declare that every time "echad" is used, that it denotes a compound unity, and therefore, The Lord must be a compound unity, proving that the Trinity is in the Torah! Correct?

No, this is totally incorrect. The word "echad" in Hebrew actually works in the same way the word "one" does in English. It can mean either a single unity or a compound unity. These Christians are very quick to point to Genesis 1:5, but you’ll never see them point at verses like these:

Exodus 9:7 And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go. (KJV)

2 Samuel 13:30 And it came to pass, while they were in the way, that tidings came to David, saying, Absalom hath slain all the king's sons, and there is not one of them left. (KJV)

2 Samuel 17:12 So shall we come upon him in some place where he shall be found, and we will light upon him as the dew falleth on the ground: and of him and of all the men that [are] with him there shall not be left so much as one. (KJV)

Ecclesiastes 4:8 There is one [alone], and [there is] not a second; yea, he hath neither child nor brother: yet [is there] no end of all his labour; neither is his eye satisfied with riches; neither [saith he], For whom do I labour, and bereave my soul of good? This [is] also vanity, yea, it [is] a sore travail. (KJV)

The word for "one" used here is "echad." "Not one of the cattle" - was each cow a compound unity? Were the king’s sons more than one person each? Of course, not. Just as "one" in English can work both ways, so can the word "echad."

In trying to prove a plurality, all that a Christian does is create the possibility of a 2-part, or even a 2-thousand part G-d. The fact remains:

Nowhere in the Torah will you find that G-d is comprised of a Trinity.

At the Council of Nicea (325 CE), the doctrine of the Bianity became canonized, equating Jesus to the substance of G-d in Christian theology. The Council of Constantinople in 381 CE added the Holy Spirit to the Bianity and the Trinity was canonized. These councils contradicted the Torah of Moses. See Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 (13:1) for instructions regarding changes to the Torah. Who are we to believe? Moses, or these councils?

Which is why, breadwinner, Zephaniah 14:9, the verse you yourself brought down, is the epitome of the Torah's insistance that anything other than monotheism is a perverted perception of G-d.

"Bah'yom hahu" - "on that day".

Mohideen, I believe this question was addressed to you. Please let us know what happens in the 1-on-1 basis.
Paula

Not only Mohideen Ibramsha, every teacher has the following advice, as given to Muadh by Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Quoting Tradition numbered 478 of Volume 2 of Sahih Al-Bukhari, we have:
===
Narrated Ibn Abbas
Thy Prophet sent Muadh to Yemen and said, "Invite the people to testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and I am Allah's Apostle, and if they obey you to do so, then teach them that Allah has enjoined on them five prayers in every day and night (in twenty-four hours), and if they obey you to do so, then teach them that Allah has made it obligatory for them to pay the Zakat from their property and it is to be taken from the wealthy among them and given to the poor."
===

It is expected that on a 1-on-1 basis also (as in a group too) we have to be truthful. We would say that “God Almighty is one; He is called ‘Allah’ in Arabic. Since there is only one God Almighty, we have to worship Him alone.”

If he (the non-Muslim) happens to be a Christian, we would say:
===
Holy Quran 4:171:
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
===

Islam's built-in intollerance towards non-Muslims will prevent such hopes from being fulfilled …
Shy Guy

The response to the above observation is found in the Holy Quran itself. Quoting 2:256 of the Holy Quran, we have:
===
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
===

Mohideen Ibramsha: Quoting 2:256 of the Holy Quran, we have: ===
Let there be no compulsion in religion

Calls to "fight and slay the idolaters wherever you find them" (9:5), "smite at their necks" (47:4), "make war on the unbeliever in Allah, until they pay tribute" (9:29), "Fight until the religion be all of it Allah's" (8:39) or "announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve" (9:3) all contradict "There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256). Note that sura 9 was the last or second last chapter to be revealed to Muhammad. It is also the most aggressive and intolerant sura in the Koran, replacing all the peaceful ones made at times of Muslim weakness. Offensive jihad, attacking, is now fully permissible in Sunni Islam.

All these responses are also based on the Holy Quran and Sura.

As I alluded to in my first post here and as can be easily read throughout JihadWatch.com, Islam's built-in intolerance towards non-Muslims will prevent such hopes from being fulfilled - unless - and this will not happen - Muslim's officially reject those parts of the Quran that advocate superiority over all non-Muslims, whether through Sharia, Jihad or dhimmitude. As I said, this will not happen.
Shy Guy

We quote 10:15 of the Holy Quran:
===
But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, say: “Bring us a Reading other than this, or change this,” Say: “It is not for me, of my own accord to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the Penalty of a Great Day (to come).”
===

None has the permission to change the Holy Quran; we have to accept the whole of the Holy Quran and obey. Even the Caliph, as and when the Caliphate is established, can not change the Holy Quran. He must obey all of the Holy Quran.

We hope, as Shy Guy has said, there would be no change in the Holy Quran and that the Shariah shall be implemented; that Jihad would be waged wherever ‘freedom of Faith’ is challenged; and dhimmis would be protected by the Muslims and allowed to practice their religion and live in peace.

There are two kinds of taxes levied by a Muslim ruler: zakat to be paid by the Muslims and jizya to be paid by the dhimmis.

The zakat rates are: 2.5% of the wealth that had remained over the past one year (if considering a bank account, the minimum balance in the account over the past year), 10% of the agricultural yield or any income for which the person has worked for, and 20% of any other income for which the person did no work (like getting a treasure from the land, when the person paid no compensation for the treasure).

In contrast, the jizya is normally a fixed amount. Quoting Tradition numbered 44 of Volume 17 of Al-Muwatta Hadith, we have:
===
Jizya on People of the Book and Magians
Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Aslam, the mawla of Umar ibn al-Khattab, that Umar ibn al-Khattab imposed a jizya tax of four dinars on those living where gold was the currency, and forty dirhams on those living where silver was the currency. In addition, they had to provide for the muslims and receive them as guests for three days.
===

The Dhimmis do not have to fight; any attack on the Dhimmis would be repulsed by the Muslims. Quoting Tradition numbered 46 of Volume 17 of Al-Muwatta Hadith, we get:
===
Jizya on People of the Book and Magians
Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz wrote to his governors telling them to relieve any people who payed the jizya from paying the jizya if they became muslims.

Malik said, "The sunna is that there is no jizya due from women or children of people of the Book, and that jizya is only taken from men who have reached puberty. The people of dhimma and the magians do not have to pay any zakat on their palms or their vines or their crops or their livestock. This is because zakat is imposed on the muslims to purify them and to be given back to their poor, whereas jizya is imposed on the people of the Book to humble them. As long as they are in the country they have agreed to live in, they do not have to pay anything on their property except the jizya. If, however, they trade in
muslim countries, coming and going in them, a tenth is taken from what they invest in such trade. This is because jizya is only imposed on them on conditions, which they have agreed on, namely that they will remain in their own countries, and that war will be waged for them on any enemy of theirs, and that if they then leave that land to go anywhere else to do business they will have to pay a tenth. Whoever among them does business with the people of Egypt, and then goes to Syria, and then does business with the people of Syria and then goes to Iraq and does business with them and then goes on to
Madina, or Yemen, or other similar places, has to pay a tenth.

People of the Book and magians do not have to pay any zakat on any of their property, livestock, produce or crops. The sunna still continues like that. They remain in the deen they were in, and they continue to do what they used to do. If in any one year they frequently come and go in muslim countries then they have to pay a tenth every time they do so, since that is outside what they have agreed upon, and not one of the conditions stipulated for them. This is what I have seen the people of knowledge of our city doing."
===

Thank you, Mohideen, for essentially confirming the threats that Islam poses to the entire non-Islamic world. As expected, essentially verses 9:5, 9:29, 8:39 and 9:3 are indicative of Islam's threat to the rest of us.

And with that, Daniel Pipes should be able to easily finalize the obvious conclusions to his original article. It is absolutely irrelevant if Allah is to Islam as G-d is to other religions.

What's relevant is Islam's doctrine of conquer and control through all means available.

Thank you, Mohideen, for essentially confirming the threats that Islam poses to the entire non-Islamic world. As expected, essentially verses 9:5, 9:29, 8:39 and 9:3 are indicative of Islam's threat to the rest of us.
Shy Guy

Islam poses no threat whatsoever to the non-Islamic world. The Holy Quran is a guide for all aspects of life. As war has not yet been banished from this world, conducting war is also taught by the Holy Quran. Both Chapters 8 and 9 of the Holy Quran refer to the Battle of Badr and the Battle of Tabuk respectively. In the Battle of Badr, the Quraish attempted to destroy the budding Islamic society, and thus the Muslims were taught to defend themselves. Likewise, the Battle of Tabuk was to resist the threat from the Roman Empire to destroy the successful Muslim nation founded in Medina.

It is indeed strange that the Muslims are expected to meekly surrender and not defend themselves against aggression.

As long as Muslims are left to live in peace, they do not even attempt to be a threat to any other society. However, when Muslims are threatened, they do have the right of self-defense.

Having said the above, I must confess that I or any other Muslim has no power to stop someone from arriving at wrong conclusions.

What's relevant is Islam's doctrine of conquer and control through all means available.
Shy Guy

It is hoped that even the following level of discipline expected of a Muslim would be considered relevant. Quoting Tradition numbered 354, Volume 5 of Sahih Al-Bukhari, we have:
===
Narrated Ubaidullah bin Adi bin Al Khiyar
That Al-Miqdad bin 'Amr Al-Kindi, who was an ally of Bani Zuhra and one of those who fought the battle of Badr together with Allah's Apostle told him that he said to Allah's
Apostle, "Suppose I met one of the infidels and we fought, and he struck one of my hands with his sword and cut it off and then took refuge in a tree and said, "I surrender to Allah
(i.e. I have become a Muslim),' could I kill him, O Allah's Apostle, after he had said this?" Allah's Apostle said, "You should not kill him." Al-Miqdad said, "O Allah's Apostle! But he had cut off one of my two hands, and then he had uttered those words?" Allah's Apostle replied, "You should not kill him, for if you kill him, he would be in your position where you had been before killing him, and you would be in his position where he had been before uttering those words."
===

Consider the situation discussed above. A Muslim has no permission to seek personal vengeance, whatever be the circumstances. Once a person has sought refuge in Allah, all his sins, however serious might have been, are forgiven and that person becomes innocent.

A Muslim ruler has absolutely no permission for waging war except to protect Islam.
No question of conquer and control of territories.

My dear Mohideen:

I am curious, and I think many Jihad Watch readers are also, as to what you would say to Mufti Ebrahim Desai to convince him that Muslims should not wage war on non-Muslim nations that are perceived to be trying to hinder the spread of Islam.

He wrote that "if a country doesn't allow the propagation of Islam to its inhabitants in a suitable manner or creates hindrances to this, then the Muslim ruler would be justifying in waging Jihad against this country, so that the message of Islam can reach its inhabitants, thus saving them from the Fire of Jahannum. If the Kuffaar allow us to spread Islam peacefully, then we would not wage Jihad against them."

This amounts to a declaration of war against any country that resists its own Islamization.

Do you approve of the Mufti's words and believe them sanctioned by the Qur'an, or do you reject them? If so, do you reject them on Islamic grounds? Please specify with appropriate Qur'an verses.

Many thanks.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Does the word 'Allah' equate to God(aka Yahweh) and what does this mean for Christians and Muslims alike? Nothing.

How is this different from Mormons referring to a completely different Christ than Catholics do when they say "Jesus". One is the brother of Satan and one is not.

It isn't the sound the word makes, it is the concept that the word evokes in the mind.

f.g.

I took 2 days off [family called] and sheeze - I missed a lot.

Do you approve of the Mufti's words and believe them sanctioned by the Qur'an, or do you reject them? If so, do you reject them on Islamic grounds? Please specify with appropriate Qur'an verses.

Many thanks.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

I'd like to see that one answered....by the Quran - as requested.

The word 'God' is ONLY a title - not a name.

The real name - is hidden:

Isa 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Exd 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

He changes it - and keeps it hidden from the World.

But it's right there - for the taking - to anyone who trust the Lord to show it to them:

Isa 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail

I'll check back in later - 'mortal' duty calls

“…If the Kuffaar allow us to spread Islam peacefully, then we would not wage Jihad against them." – Mufti Ibrahim Desai
Robert Spencer

The above statement should read “If the Kuffaar allow us to preach Islam peacefully, then we would not wage Jihad against them.”

The duty assigned to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and by implication to all Muslims is to convey the Message. It is up to God Almighty to guide, not for us. Let us consider some statements of the Holy Quran.

3:20 So if they dispute with thee, say: “I have submitted my whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me.” And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: “Do ye (also) submit yourselves?” If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah’s sight are (all) His servants.

39:41 Verily We have revealed the Book to thee in Truth, for (instructing) mankind. He, then, that receives guidance benefits his own soul: but he that strays injures his own soul. Nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs.

4:115 If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of Faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell – what an evil refuge!

28:56 It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.

35:8 Is he, then, to whom the evil of his conduct is made alluring, so that he looks upon it as good, (equal to one who is rightly guided)? For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do!

39:23 Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat: then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah’s praises. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide.

42:13 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah – that which We have sent by inspiration to thee – and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: namely, that ye should remain steadfast in Religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which though callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
It should be clear from the above that whether a non-Muslim becomes a Muslim or not depends on the mercy of God Almighty. Even Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, could not make those whom he loved to embrace Islam. (Example: His own uncle who brought him up.)

“If the Kuffaar allow us to spread Islam,” implies the conversion of non-Muslims; spread means increase; no such assumption could be made. Whether Islam is accepted by a non-Muslim or not is up to God Almighty.

The above statement should read “If the Kuffaar allow us to preach Islam peacefully, then we would not wage Jihad against them.”

Mohideen

First - before I give the Koran writings - I want you to know Mohideen - Satan is an enemy to every man woman and child....he's the liar of ALL liars; he's the king of liars.

Your Muhammad claims:

004.101 When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.

[your allah says - "throughout the earth" - not just lands that Muhammad conquered]

And these are the things that are commanded of you Mohideen:

008.067 It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war [slay them] until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. {That's a bona-fide declaration of war Mohideen

004.095 Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home. But those who strive and fight hath He distinguished above those who sit at home by a special reward.

002.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing [war] which is good for you and that ye love a thing [peace] which is bad for you?

009.039 Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.

047.004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in fight [jihad], smite at their necks. [Behead them!] {That is vicious!

004.082 Do they not consider the Qur'an with care? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

019.083 Seest thou not that We have set the Evil Ones on against the unbelievers, to incite them with fury? [Seest thou not Mohideen? - that it is the Muslims who are the ones being incited with fury?]

No one - not one being - can produce ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE from the New Testament [because there aren't any] where humans are aloud to to be violent with each other - Quite the contrary.

See the difference Mohideen? Between what Muhammad wrote? and the Book that he attacked says?

Which way is the True Way to Peace for ALL of mankind?

Jam 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

How can it Mohideen?

Mohideen...you offered this one:

39:41 Verily We have revealed the Book to thee in Truth, for (instructing) mankind. He, then, that receives guidance benefits his own soul: but he that strays injures his own soul. Nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs.

Take a look at these:

035.040 Say: "Have ye seen these 'Partners' of yours whom ye call upon besides Allah? Show Me what it is they have created in the wide earth. Or have they a share in the heavens? Or have We given them a Book from which they can derive clear evidence?- Nay, the wrong-doers promise each other nothing but delusions.

Is Palestine a 'delusion' Mohideen?

021.024 Or have they taken for worship other gods besides him? Say, "Bring your convincing proof:

027.064 "Bring forth your argument, if ye are telling the truth!"

Here is our argument - it existed long before we were born:

Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: Before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Isa 14:31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times. {from the Book that offers Convincing Proof]

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD?

Isa 41:26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous?

We're ALL looking at Palestine...aren't we?

Is Palestine a delusion? for the whole world?

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed.

The True God proves Himself - because He doesn't create dummies.

Satan does that - because he is Finished! It is a fact - that misery LOVES company.

Eternal Life is at stake.

Here's another one Mohideen:

006.101 To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

003.047 She [Mary] said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

Then why does 'allah' preach that God needs ''a consort'' - to have a Son?

Was Jesus a bastard? concieved out of wedlock?

That is BLASPHEMY - BIG TIME!

It comes from Satan

allow us to preach Islam peacefully

Mohideen?...

009.029 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

004.104 And slacken not in following up the enemy: If ye are suffering hardships, they are suffering similar hardships.

047.004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in fight [jihad], smite at their necks. [Behead them!]

Where is the Peace in those teachings?

Would if every single human family commanded their own sons to go out and slay ALL who don't obey their own father?

What would the world come to?

If you take a life [and it IS commanded by your Koran to do so] - that you did not give - nor can replace - isn't that "Playing God" ? Passing judgment? Before Judgment Day?

>>Breadwinner, was there a point being made in your post. It's lost on me. I did find your bottom line most amusing:

Zephaniah 14:9 speaking of the 'Day of the Lord' says "And the Lord will become King over the whole earth ; on that day the Lord will be ONE and his name ONE.

Therefore Monotheism is moot.
Therefore Monotheism is. Period. Thank you for the proofthat they may be all one, even as thou Father, art in me and I in thee, that they may also be in us; so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 The glory which thou hast given me, I have given them that they may be ONE even as we are ONE,

23 I in them and thou in me that they may become PERFECTLY ONE.so that the world may know that thou has sent me and has loved them even as thou has loved me.

24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me befor the foundation of the world,

So we have Jewish thought here which Christ learnt from the TORAH not what he learnt from the Catholic Church?

Now He is OUR King but is he (or any Jewish King ) King over all the earth, then Monotheism is moot, because until everyone born of God is gathered in we have to see our "becoming monotheist" in the sense of Zechariah 14:9. Certainly we can say our religions are "Monotheist" because we are doing no more than explaining the character of God as he has declared himself to be, in relation to our religions.

Catholics would jump in here and say "Jesus has conquered death, its all but over but the shouting now " that would be partisan and that too would leave us in the same boat as the Jews and the TORAH unwilling to investigate how the Holy Spirit manifested God's Name to the gentiles

Jam 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
How can it Mohideen?
Beth

There are many ways of having a fountain giving sweet and bitter water at the same place. First let us look at a quote from the Holy Quran.

25:53 It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: one palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

We can easily create such flows. Two laminar flows flowing side by side do not mix at all. So, all we need is a channel fed by two channels. One of the feeder channels has bitter water, and the other has sweet water. The flow is adjusted to be fast enough to remain laminar in the feeder channels and also in the combined channel. The barrier between the adjacent laminar flows shall not be crossed.

If your question is related to emotions, asking how can one person have love and hate, the answer is we all love the good and hate the bad.

As regards whether the Holy Quran is true or not would be decided by Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him. The Muslims claim that Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, is a Muslim. The Christians claim otherwise. Well, he won’t be both. So, let us simply wait. We, the Muslims are confident.

As regards the Holy Quran having Verses informing war methods, the Holy Quran being a guide to total living, must also give rules for surviving mutual animosity that is built in. The Holy Quran is like a hologram. It has the Message distributed. Thus, it has Verses related to war in many Chapters.

From another technology perspective, we now have fountains that issue multiple streams at the same place: the color cartridge of an ink jet printer. This cartridge issues millions of colors at the same tip.

>>Breadwinner, was there a point being made in your post. It's lost on me. I did find your bottom line most amusing:

Zephaniah 14:9 speaking of the 'Day of the Lord' says "And the Lord will become King over the whole earth ; on that day the Lord will be ONE and his name ONE.

Therefore Monotheism is moot.
Therefore Monotheism is. Period. Thank you for the proof (SHY)
-----------------------
Hi Shy

You seem to be wriggling a bit :) Lets put the text in perspective, It should have been written as Zechariah 14:9

The time is far into the future and Jesus himself read this text and knew it personally, yet this prophesy states that Jerusalem shall dwell in security, look around, is that time yet?

Is The Lord King over all the earth? and is his Name ONE ?
Many people try explain a frigid perception of an impersonal GoD, maybe we will see people (like me) more often who are to religion what Marco Polo was to geography, DISCOVERERS ! :)

Jesus explain's God's relationship with him and his folowers in the most clearest terms free from false piety,it is a triune relationship and is explained by Jesus, knowing his life is to be taken as a ransom for men, yet Jesus explains to his followers and to God the terms of his sacrifice, this is the NEW COVENANT and it is TRINITARIAN, GOD OUR FATHER, JESUS, HOLY SPIRIT to whom MANKIND is subject under the Law.

He says in John 17: that he was with God in his pre-existence and he shared his glory then, and he says he has shown his followers Gods Name, then he recounts personal experiences of Gods love, and says;

"20 I do not pray for these only, but for those who believe in me through their word,

21 that they may be all one, even as thou Father, art in me and I in thee, that they may also be in us; so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 The glory which thou hast given me, I have given them that they may be ONE even as we are ONE,

23 I in them and thou in me that they may become PERFECTLY ONE.so that the world may know that thou has sent me and has loved them even as thou has loved me.

24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me befor the foundation of the world,

So we have Jewish thought here which Christ learnt from the TORAH not what he learnt from the Catholic Church?

Now He is OUR King but is he (or any Jewish King ) King over all the earth, then Monotheism is moot, because until everyone born of God is gathered in we have to see our "becoming monotheist" in the sense of Zechariah 14:9. Certainly we can say our religions are "Monotheist" because we are doing no more than explaining the character of God as he has declared himself to be, in relation to our religions.

Catholics would jump in here and say "Jesus has conquered death, its all but over now " that would be partisan and that too would leave us in the same boat as the Jews and the TORAH unwilling to investigate

sigh..

"And the Word of the Lord came to me :
"Son of man, prophesy and say,
Thus says the LOrd God, Say:
A Sword , a sword is sharpened and also polished
sharpened for slaughter
polished to flash like lightning"

I took some time away, apparently like Beth and so have just come back to the conversation. Breadwinner, I give you credit, you are very devout in your ways of seeing things and I can respect that. Unfortunately, I cannot agree with your way of approaching the Tenach - but hey, you're still a good person, right? ;-)

I understand you found my comments about the Spirit of G-d "simplistic" - that does not, however, necessarily mean it is unsophisticated. About this, we will just have to agree to disagree. I believe the difference between our two positions is that you are literalizing an anthropomorphic metaphor - based upon Johanine thought and theology. I have taken the original Hebrew and have, based upon Torah understanding and gave it the "pshat" reading (aka the simple reading/understanding).

Your comments above, again are reading into the text. You take the words, ""The Word of the Lord" came to me saying" and are, based upon Johanine understanding, making a connection between Jesus being the Word of G-d, and the prophecy that follows and connecting it later with Jesus' words about "bringing a sword to the world." First off, you are connecting two disperate passages on very shaky ground. Second, you are taking it out of context. In Bible School, I learned that a text, taken out of context creates a pre-text. This is what you are doing here.

"My breath does not live, neither does it have an intelligence the Holy Spirit describes himself as having faculties far superior to humanity."

No, your breath does not live, however, in a minor form, it can also be your servant, as the spirit of G-d is to G-d. For example, should you want to blow out a candle, by your will, you take your breath and blow at the fire. Your breath, which is at that moment your servant goes and blows out the candle. In a similar fashion, G-d's spirit is also a servant, nothing more, nothing less. (Again, we will have to agree to disagree here.)

"This is not possible for people who deny his death and resurrection, Jews are in Gods hands and it may be that God will have to "refine them like the finest Gold" but it says in the Book of Isaiah 65: 11-3
I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask of me ;
I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me.
I said" Here am I, Here am I" to a nation who did not Call on my name.
I spread out my hands all the day to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good ; following their own devices;
a people who provoke me continually."

Perhaps I am wrong here, so I am going to be very careful in my next comments about this quote that you added to your comments. I am also including the highlighted text to illustrate my point. Are you name calling here? Why the need to bring up this passage?

Is it that you thought it would be very easy to argue your points, bringing up all of your proof texts, with some of the religious Jews on this board and they would say, "Hmmm... You know, breadwinner, you have a point. Gee, I didn't see it that way. I must not really know all that much about the Bible after all. I think maybe Jesus is G-d after all." Do you really think us that unlearned? Is it not remotely possible that we have very good and cogent reasons why we believe the way we do. Is it not possible that we are intelligent and still do not believe in the New Testament as you do? And, now that we don't accept your way of seeing things, are you going to call us stubborn, rebellious and worthy of damnation? Don't you realize that this is what happened throughout Christian history? This is why the Jews were killed in Europe through Pogroms, Crusades, Inquisitions and in the very end through the Holocaust. Now, I don't blame you for any of that past. How could I, coming from the background in which I spring. But, I wish you to take care here. And, if I have mistaken your intent on adding that passage to your text, please correct me. I will heartily ask your forgiveness.

sigh..

"And the Word of the Lord came to me :
"Son of man, prophesy and say,
Thus says the LOrd God, Say:
A Sword , a sword is sharpened and also polished
sharpened for slaughter
polished to flash like lightning"

I took some time away, apparently like Beth and so have just come back to the conversation. Breadwinner, I give you credit, you are very devout in your ways of seeing things and I can respect that. Unfortunately, I cannot agree with your way of approaching the Tenach - but hey, you're still a good person, right? ;-)

I understand you found my comments about the Spirit of G-d "simplistic" - that does not, however, necessarily mean it is unsophisticated. About this, we will just have to agree to disagree. I believe the difference between our two positions is that you are literalizing an anthropomorphic metaphor - based upon Johanine thought and theology. I have taken the original Hebrew and have, based upon Torah understanding and gave it the "pshat" reading (aka the simple reading/understanding).

Your comments above, again are reading into the text. You take the words, ""The Word of the Lord" came to me saying" and are, based upon Johanine understanding, making a connection between Jesus being the Word of G-d, and the prophecy that follows and connecting it later with Jesus' words about "bringing a sword to the world." First off, you are connecting two disperate passages on very shaky ground. Second, you are taking it out of context. In Bible School, I learned that a text, taken out of context creates a pre-text. This is what you are doing here.

"My breath does not live, neither does it have an intelligence the Holy Spirit describes himself as having faculties far superior to humanity."

No, your breath does not live, however, in a minor form, it can also be your servant, as the spirit of G-d is to G-d. For example, should you want to blow out a candle, by your will, you take your breath and blow at the fire. Your breath, which is at that moment your servant goes and blows out the candle. In a similar fashion, G-d's spirit is also a servant, nothing more, nothing less. (Again, we will have to agree to disagree here.)

"This is not possible for people who deny his death and resurrection, Jews are in Gods hands and it may be that God will have to "refine them like the finest Gold" but it says in the Book of Isaiah 65: 11-3
I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask of me ;
I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me.
I said" Here am I, Here am I" to a nation who did not Call on my name.
I spread out my hands all the day to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good ; following their own devices;
a people who provoke me continually."

Perhaps I am wrong here, so I am going to be very careful in my next comments about this quote that you added to your comments. I am also including the highlighted text to illustrate my point. Are you name calling here? Why the need to bring up this passage?

Is it that you thought it would be very easy to argue your points, bringing up all of your proof texts, with some of the religious Jews on this board and they would say, "Hmmm... You know, breadwinner, you have a point. Gee, I didn't see it that way. I must not really know all that much about the Bible after all. I think maybe Jesus is G-d after all." Do you really think us that unlearned? Is it not remotely possible that we have very good and cogent reasons why we believe the way we do. Is it not possible that we are intelligent and still do not believe in the New Testament as you do? And, now that we don't accept your way of seeing things, are you going to call us stubborn, rebellious and worthy of damnation? Don't you realize that this is what happened throughout Christian history? This is why the Jews were killed in Europe through Pogroms, Crusades, Inquisitions and in the very end through the Holocaust. Now, I don't blame you for any of that past. How could I, coming from the background in which I spring. But, I wish you to take care here. And, if I have mistaken your intent on adding that passage to your text, please correct me. I will heartily ask your forgiveness.

Thank you, Paula. I wish Christians would become fluent in modern Hebrew. I couldn't care less if they're taught Hebrew by non-Jewish Bhuddists or Eskimos or even by rabidly anti-religious Jews - as long as not by fellow Christians with an alterior motive and preconceptions that suit their needs and have no historical foundation.

I don't care (we'll I do care, to a certain extent) if they believe in Jesus, Trinity, NT, Holy Ghosts and what not - just quit lying to yourselves that you'll find any of these things in the Torah. You have not once succeeded (or very much even tried) answering a single disputation presented to you here.

Bringing up mistranslated passages in public, where anyone with a minimal background in Hebrew can poke holes through each and every claim is not helping your faith. This was a great tactic when getting hold of anti-missionary material hardly existed (it did - in the form of various hard to find books) but today one can easily find the logical and grammatically correct responses to Christian missionary claims at a multitude of sites.

Go learn Hebrew. It most probably won't convince you one iota in making changes in your faith. Again, that's fine with me. But it will make you aware that what you base yourself on is in the NT, not in the Torah. I'm sure you claim honesty is one of Jesus' traits. Follow in his footsteps.

I was not clear that in my above post, I'm addressing Paula only in the 1st sentence of the 1st paragraph. Everything past that is addressed to Beth, breadwinner and others.

I was not clear that in my above post, I'm addressing Paula only in the 1st sentence of the 1st paragraph. Everything past that is addressed to Beth, breadwinner and others.

I was not clear that in my above post, I'm addressing Paula only in the 1st sentence of the 1st paragraph. Everything past that is addressed to Beth, breadwinner and others.

Trinity posting. Sorry.

:D

Paula

You asked me to comment on this

This is not possible for people who deny his death and resurrection, Jews are in Gods hands and it may be that God will have to "refine them like the finest Gold" but it says in the Book of Isaiah 65: 11-3
I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask of me;
I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me.
I said" Here am I, Here am I" to a nation who did not Call on my name.
I spread out my hands all the day to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good ; following their own devices;
a people who provoke me continually."

Paula
Perhaps I am wrong here, so I am going to be very careful in my next comments about this quote that you added to your comments. I am also including the highlighted text to illustrate my point. Are you name calling here? Why the need to bring up this passage?

Breadwinner
I wanted to see if you noticed the allusion to Moses and the Way God addressed himself as performing miracles with "outstretched arm". :)

Exodus 17:8-13
8 The Amalekites came and attacked the Israelites at Rephidim. 9 Moses said to Joshua, "Choose some of our men and go out to fight the Amalekites. Tomorrow I will stand on top of the hill with the staff of God in my hands."
10 So Joshua fought the Amalekites as Moses had ordered, and Moses, Aaron and Hur went to the top of the hill. 11 As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning. 12 When Moses' hands grew tired, they took a stone and put it under him and he sat on it. Aaron and Hur held his hands up—one on one side, one on the other—so that his hands remained steady till sunset. 13 So Joshua overcame the Amalekite army with the sword.

Your comments above, again are reading into the text. You take the words, "The Word of the Lord" came to me saying" and are, based upon Johanine understanding, making a connection between Jesus being the Word of G-d, and the prophecy that follows and connecting it later with Jesus' words about "bringing a sword to the world." First off, you are connecting two disperate passages on very shaky ground. Second, you are taking it out of context. In Bible School, I learned that a text, taken out of context creates a pre-text. This is what you are doing here.

Yes I do believe that Jesus is the Word of God, that a manifestation of the Word is as a Glittering Great Two Edged Sword HE is the judge ,I believe that he was the person who spoke to the prophets, and who is described in very many texts of the O/T, I also believe it was he who came into the World and through Mary inhabited the temple that was Jesus Christ, he spoke in Jesus, when your forefathers asked for a sign "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up".

The other thing is that you are suggesting that my experience is from an intellectual gift it is not, let me give you some more information about the theophany I received;

I was a young husband at the time the Spirit of Truth came to me I am now middle aged, before the event I had been on my way to church and a malicious person accused me of being "reprobate" this deeply wounded me but I went to Church and to communion, silently praying throughout I went home without a word to anyone and went to my room, with my Bible and remained praying fervently before the Word of God came to me, afterwards i tried to shut out the memory of the event because it was so painful and terrifying I was extremely unhappy because of it too, you must also realize that the human mind will try tp protect itself by denial and unbelief when presented with facts beyond its understanding.

On the following Sunday at Mass the priests held a concelebrated Mass and something I have never seen before happened, all the Church banners were processed around the altar, then the priest stood up at the lectern and said "Someone here has gone in search of knowledge and POWER has gone out" then he proceeded to read some of the advice the Word had left for me. Although this confirmed for me that my experience had happened I could not admit to it in fact it took me years to come to terms with it.

Another event occurred to me and I had a crisis of faith and whilst I prayed a man appeared in my kitchen he was the most beautiful person and he spoke to me, he wore the most beautiful clothes and i could almost touch the sleeve of his garment, he said to me
"I am wholehearted,
as is my Father wholehearted,
you are half-hearted"
then he stepped into a portal and was gone, the next Sunday at Mass the Priest at that time stood up at the lectern and said the same words:
"I am wholehearted,
as is my Father wholehearted,
you are half-hearted"
after Mass i said to him "At midnight last week a man appeared to me in my kitchen and said those same words to me!

In Catholicsicm we have this thing called "private revelation" this was not "private revelation" because it was a confirmation and in fact could say:

"Hear the Word of the Lord :
"I am wholehearted,
as is my Father wholehearted,
you are half-hearted".

Then I admitted the first theophany and I asked the people of my parish what it could mean, and no-one had ever heard anything like it, some people were very put out, some were resentful, so I did not reveal much. One thing which is important the Church cannot deny me, but one of the preists said about me slightly disparagingly "By Royal Appointment", these feeelings though are natural to people who really want to know EVERYTHING first.

The main reason I have been given these gifts is that I know "whither I have come and whence I go" and this experience has been growing in me throughout, I share this experience with all people of faith because it started with the Word of the Lord, making the Jewish people as welcome to it as the Catholics who received it, I want make sure that it is given to those who will recieve it for what it is because I found that telling one of my peers, who described himself as "Nathaniel a man without guile " he was anything but, and he tried very hard to manipulate me, and he intended to put a Marian spin on the message! This would have ruined the message God intended and it would have become an imperious Catholic message which would have no meaning for other Christians or Jews. The facts are very clear Jesus has said that when the Spirit of Truth comes he will lead you into all truth, Our Lady was not mentioned in this role.

Shy Guy

Stop waffling

Shy Guy

Stop waffling

Posted by: breadwinner at July 6, 2005 06:48 PM

waf·fle

v. waf·fled, waf·fling, waf·fles
v. intr.
To speak or write evasively.

v. tr.
To speak, write, or act evasively about.

n.
Evasive or vague speech or writing.

It should be very easy for you to back up your accusation by showing me where I'm trying to evade anything.

Either put up or shut up.

ShyGuy

6 entries found for waffling.
Main Entry: diffuse
Part of Speech: adjective 2
Definition: wordy
Synonyms: circumlocutory, copious, diffusive, digressive, discursive, dull, exuberant, lavish, lengthy, long, long-winded, loose, meandering, palaverous, profuse, prolix, rambling, redundant, vague, verbose, waffling, windy
Antonyms: abbreviated, abridged, brief, pithy, short, succinct, terse

First you want me to learn Hebrew then you want me to learn English, theres no pleasing you :)

Breadwinner,

Enjoy your semantics games.

Don't learn Hebrew. Don't believe people who read and speak the language.

No sweat!

ShyGuy

The Jews and the Catholics do not own the Eternal Word, they are caretakers servants and friends. We recognise that the Jewish people were the first to hear the WORD, but we now know that Jesus is that person in his pre-existant form, for us the Word without Jesus is Judgement, yet with him there is NO judgement, and we are free to go in and out of Gods house and find pasture (experience) for our souls.

You ask that I speak honestly and so I do but my reason is not to proselytise Jews but to share the Truth, and hear is the test, I cannot make you believe ANYTHING you do not feel secure in your conscience with, it's either the Truth that sits easily on your throne or nothing, therefore your arguments about Christian apologetics trying to change your Torah, is disingenuous, I simply share my experience with you like a man would coming from a far flung place, or an explorer who has travelled to the stars.

Matthew 13:51 53

51"Have you understood all these things?" Jesus asked. "Yes," they replied.
52He said to them, "Therefore every scribe who has been trained about the kingdom of heaven is householder who brings out of his treasures what is new as well as what is old."