A tragic update to this story from AP, with thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist:
LONDON - Police identified the man who was chased down in a subway and shot to death by plainclothes officers as a Brazilian and said Saturday they no longer believed he was tied to the recent terror bombings.Friday's shooting before horrified commuters prompted criticism of police for overreacting and expressions of fear that Asians and Muslims would be targeted by a "trigger-happy culture" after two well-coordinated attacks in two weeks.
It still appears that this man understood English and did not stop when police ordered him to do so. His death is a tragedy, but in a time when bombers are targeting London, not "trigger-happy" or inexplicable.
Police expressed regret for the death of the man at the Stockwell subway station, identified Saturday as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him about five times in the head and torso.Hours after the shooting, Police Commissioner Ian Blair said the victim was "directly linked" to the investigations into attacks Thursday and July 7. In the latter, suicide bombings on trains and a bus killed 56 people, including four attackers.
Now I would like to know why he said that, although perhaps it was only because of this:
Police initially said the victim attracted police attention because he left a house that was under surveillance after Thursday's bungled bombings, in which devices planted on three subway trains and a double-decker bus failed to detonate properly. Stockwell is near Oval station, one of those targeted."He was then followed by surveillance officers to the station. His clothing and his behavior at the station added to their suspicions," police said Friday.
But Saturday, a police official said on condition of anonymity that Menezes was "not believed to be connected in any way to any of the London bombings."
"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets," a spokesman said on condition of anonymity, which is police policy.
However, police did not explain what went wrong or say whether Menezes had done anything illegal.
In Brazil, the Foreign Ministry said it was "shocked and perplexed" by the death of Menezes, whom it did not name but described as "apparently the victim of a lamentable mistake."
The ministry said it expected British authorities to explain the circumstances of the shooting, and Foreign Minister Celso Amorim would try to arrange a meeting with British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw during a visit to London.
Brazilian media reported that Menezes was an electrician who had been legally living and working in England for the past three years. He originally came from the small city of Gonzaga, some 500 miles northeast of Sao Paulo in the state of Minas Gerais.
"He spoke English very well, and had permission to study and work there," Menezes' cousin Maria Alves told the O Globo Online Web site from her home in Sao Paulo.
Menezes' family was Roman Catholic. When asked if he had become Muslim in Britain, Agostino Ferreira Rosa, a policeman in Gonzaga said: "According to his family, he had nothing to do with Muslims or Islamism. He was Catholic."
How sad. And how indicative of the corruption of our country that our (understanably) trigger happy police react so tragically quickly to a poor soul who panicked and paid a terrible price.
But the blame for his death can be at least partly laid at the door of the followers of Old Mo who put us all into out jittery state in the first place.
Even so, it is a black mark against the Met Police.
If any good is to come out of this awful loss of a decent human life, let us hope that the powers that be look long and hard at this and don't make another such mistake. Ever.
Why was he wearing a heavy coat in summer?
Why didn't he stop for the police when they asked him to?
Such tragedies would not occur if Muslims weren't waging jihad on the west. If the police change this policy, the enemy will go into paroxysms of laughter (if that were permitted in Islam). "Silly dhimmis, you don't have the political will to fight us."
"Stop or I'll shoot" somehow carries more weight than "Stop or I'll be really annoyed with you". We in the west must be a countries of *our* laws and our laws must be obeyed by all, that includes some guy who "panicked" (why is that?) and jumped the turnstile (unlawful in itself) in order to jump on a train (undoubtedly against the law as well).
Mistakes will unfortunately occur because we are at war and as we've been told, no one is a civilian.
david,
your maudlin, pathetically saccharin regrets serve no productive purpose and aren't even relevant to the incident, or even address the reality of the situation for that matter. additionally your ridiculous leap to conclude a department charged with protecting a city without the full support of public officials or the sizable community that hides the very agents of the city's destruction, is corrupt, is well, quite frankly ludicrous.
REALITY: a suspected individual, when ordered to halt by the police, chose escape and evasion, jumping a turnstile and ran into a STOPPED subway car, wearing the aforementioned suspicious clothing yadda, yadda, yadda. for his efforts he got 5 pumped into his cruller.
F**K crying about his rights, everyone has rights, this is the west for God's sake, and i'm sick to death of hearing about some dirtbags trampled rights. it happens a f**k of a lot less often than you bleeding-hearts bleat about(yes, that's right, BLEAT, like the sheep you are)
what i want to know is when are you going to grow a pair of cajones and start talking about a citizens RE-F**KING-SPONSIBILITIES to his society.
he was not a poor soul, he ran from the cops and he had his reasons.
on a personal note, when i panic, I FREEZE!
and when are you going to start lamenting the awful losses of the decent lives of the 4 murderers?
you make me sick, but never fear, we will beat this threat, not because of you, but in spite of you. remember the old line, "lead follow, or get out of the way"? just get out of the way.
oh, by the way, nothing in this comment should be construed as denying you your opinion or trampling on YOUR rights, after all, we're not muslims here.
a great American once said, "i may not agree with your opinion, but i will defend to the death your right to say it"
have a wonderful day
We want the police to protect us and malefactors will have expect that in today's world "shoot to kill" must be the order of the day. Sorry, if some can't accept that.
...a great American once said, "i may not agree with your opinion, but i will defend to the death your right to say it"
Acually it was Voltaire who said that, and he was French. He also said 'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities' - a remark very fitting for muslims.
This fellow shot on the tube may have been 'innocent', but he certainly wasn't behaving in a sensible manner when being challenged by the police. In light of recent events, he should have been extra compliant, not defiant. He has only himself to blame as the police were doing their job correctly.
Police found an address in the pack of one of the would be bombers. This man came out of the address, which police had under surveillance.
They followed him for quite a while, and only alerted him to their presence when he headed for the tube. Warm coat, refusal to follow instructions to halt...something is not right on this one.
david:
I've been stopped by police in my own country several times in my life for whatever reasons (speeding, because I looked like a criminal suspect, etc.) and not once have I ever run from them and decided to play games with my life and theirs.
The man that got shot did so because he was a fool and because of the current state of terror in this world.
Want to blame anyone for that man's death? Then blame Al Qaeda. Blame his father and mother. Blame him. Blame Islamists.
But don't blame the police. Not in this particular case.
Weakness in the face of our enemy -- division amongst ourselves -- this is EXACTLY what the Islamists are praying for (literally). If they weren't such faceless cowards we could fight this war with some modicum of honor on both sides and get it over with, but they are such a deceitful lot, they will never allow that to happen. It's far too clever a strategy to just let us eat ourselves away from within, slowly and painfully.
Trouble for Islam is, I'm not going to let that happen.
jawa:
"They followed him for quite a while, and only alerted him to their presence when he headed for the tube. Warm coat, refusal to follow instructions to halt...something is not right on this one."
I agree. This man may have been setup by the terrorists as a fallguy.
david
just to tell you that we are not all heartless thugs on this site and i agree with you that the tragic death of an innocent young Brazilian , who may as many do in London have had visa problems or a myriad of other reasons to run, is very regretable , especially since his pursuers were NOT in uniform and five bullets were pumped into him as he lay motionless on his back on the ground.
This smells more of a vigilante type action that the work of "highly trained" anti terrorist police.
British tube travellers now face the choice of beimg blown up by Jihadists or shot by their own police forces.
Foehammer with all due respect you are quite wrong on this one.
The police DID MURDER this young man in cold blood and in front of witnesses.
They are responsible otherwise we might as well be living in Nazi Germany or Stalinist russia!
Fools die.
-Mario puzo.
Clearly this man was a fool and he died.
Don't mean to ridicule his death but London is at war, folks. And in war, people die. SOmetimes for no fault of their own.
Menezes's reaction [to run] was not that irrational. The police officers were not in uniform. Perhaps Menezes had committed a crime and, thinking he was about to be arrested and thrown out of the country, decided it was worth running. British police officers do not routinely carry firearms, nor do they usually shoot fleeing suspects. People over here do not anticipate the same worst case scenario that Americans consider when defying police orders.
Even Americans stopped by police for trivial traffic offences try to flee and end up being jailed for major offences. The TV show "America's Wildest Police Chases" is a testimony to that kind of everyday stupidity.
Having said that, the police still have to do "what they have to do".
Chevalier-
Your complaint is valid ONLY IF you are willing to accept the consequences of the police hestitating when similar circumstances occur in the future. If innocents die because the police are slow to react, will you join the chorus blaming them for not acting quickly enough? You can't have it both ways.
Those officers only had a few seconds to make a life or death decision. They chose to protect the lives of the other commuters.
Their reactions were reasonable under the circumstances. The whole incident could have been avoided had the young man acted in a responsible, rather then extremely suspicious, manner.
RULE NUMBER ONE IN THE DARWIN AWARD HANDBOOK
Don't run from the police when they tell you to stop, particularly after a major terrorist incident and when you look like a potential suspect!!!
There are innocent casualties in war.
We *are* at war, ladies and gentlemen. Never forget that.
I dont understand why this is even an issue...the man ran and was ignoring the cops when told to stop.
If I break the law I would be taking the same risk and if I get shot...well then I deserve it. There is no such thing as overreacting when it comes to war and terrorism.
http://www.ifilm.com/player/?ifilmId=2458063&refsite=7103&realId=2458063&realId=2458063
Once again, a film on how to survive an encounter with the police in just about any country on earth....
Belisarius; i stand humbly corrected. maybe it was a great American plagarist?
Che; "heartless thugs"? gee, thats gonna leave a welt.
"choice of being blown up by jihadists or being shot by their own police.."
a load of sensationalist crap. what about choosing to be a RESPONSIBLE member of society.
save your pennyarcade drama, heartless thugs are those who insist the overwhelmed and unsupported police protect them and then obstruct, second-guess, and vilify them every step of their thankless way. instead of passing judgement on them from the safety of your own home, walk in their shoes for even just one day, i bet you'll fold like a cheap stroller. i know i would.
It's shocking to hear about something like this happening where grew up
Thursday the Oval,Friday Stockwell,
Well Just for the record I grew up between these two stations,South Island Place.This area is know as London SW9 (Brixton, Stockwell, Oval)
Let us have a little look at recent history of the area,so as to understand
a bit better
[url]Brixton riot (1981) - April 11, 1981[/url]
The actual riot was unplanned, almost spontaneous. On the evening of the 10th, at around 17.15, a black youth with a knife wound was stopped by a police patrol, he was being escorted by two police officers along Railton Road towards a waiting vehicle when a large crowd intervened. The police were attacked and the struggle only ended when more police officers arrived, the youth was taken to hospital.
[url]Brixton riot (1985) - September 28, 1985 [/url]
It was sparked off by the accidental shooting by police of Mrs Cherry Groce while they were seeking her son Michael in relation to armed robbery and suspected that he was hiding in his mother's home. He was not there at the time of the shooting. Mrs Groce was paralysed below the waist by the shot.
As word of the shooting spread among the local community, groups gathered, leading to attacks on the local police station, running street battles, looting and burning.
[url]Brixton riot (1995) - December 13, 1995 [/url]
The Brixton riots of 1995 began on December 13 after the death of a 26 year old black man, Wayne Douglas in police custody. Trouble broke out after what had been a peaceful protest outside the police station where the death occurred. The riots resulted in widespread destruction to properties and vehicles in the area, with several hundred people involved. Police sealed off a two mile area around Brixton in south London.
The police statement said that Mr Douglas died after collapsing while being questioned at a local police station about a burglary. A later post-mortem revealed he had died of a heart condition.
So it is not an understatement that this is a very sensitive area,and the police are very aware that an incident like friday could lead to some big trouble.
So the police cannot afford to take chances.However so far it seems very likely that in these particular circumstances and because of the man's behaviour the police genuinely believed he posed a potential threat to themselves and other members of the public.
With innocent lives at risk, the police cannot afford to take chances with suspicious people who run away when challenged. It's easy with hindsight to accuse them of being too hasty, but haste is unavoidable when you might have a suicide bomber among dozens of people on a tube train. There's no time to interview the suspect - there's just action. If people want someone to blame for this, blame the terrorists who have made such actions necessary.
A situation like this demands firm and decisive action. It sends a message to all who are on the fringe to keep clear and for those real terrorists that there is no mercy. Inevitably, there will be mistakes but in a war this is the result of a fanatic minority trying to impose their will on all others.
The dumb fooker he had a choice - he could have stopped. Jumping over barriers to get away is not normal behaviour - sorry. I thank the police for protecting the general public from what could have been a very serious incident.
If we don't let the police do their job we may all live to regret it.
jawa:
"They followed him for quite a while, and only alerted him to their presence when he headed for the tube. Warm coat, refusal to follow instructions to halt...something is not right on this one."
Foehammer:
I agree. This man may have been setup by the terrorists as a fallguy.
One of the aims of the terrorists is to cause havoc,and when one looks at my earlier comment it is easy to understand the incident that on friday could very easily start have some very serious riots.
This area of London is the last place in the UK for the police to play gung-ho mavericks,
In Britain the Sus law is a stop-and-search law, widely believed to have been abused by the Metropolitan Police to harass young black men.
Also known as "Sus", it is based upon Sections 4 and 6 of the Vagrancy Act 1824 which made it "illegal for a suspected person or reputed thief to frequent or loiter in a public place with intent to commit an arrestable offence" and effectively permits the police to stop and search anyone they chose, purely on the basis of suspicion.
The law was abolished following the Brixton riots of 1981.
Linton Kwesi Johnson Sonny's Lettah (Anti-Sus Poem) lyrics
From Brixton Prison, Jebb Avenue London S.W. 2 Inglan
Dear mama
good day
I hope that when these few lines reach you they may
find you in the best of health
I doun know how to tell ya dis
for I did mek a solemn promise
to tek care a lickle Jim
an try mi bes fi look out fi him
mama, I really did try mi bes
but none a di less
sorry fi tell ya seh, poor lickle Jim get arres
it was de miggle a di rush hour
hevrybody jus a hustle and a bustle
to go home fi dem evenin shower
mi an Jim stan up waitin pon a bus
not causin no fuss
when all of a sudden a police van pull up
out jump tree policemen
de whole a dem carryin baton
dem walk straight up to me and Jim
one a dem hold on to Jim
seh dem tekin him in
Jim tell him fi leggo a him
for him nah do nutt'n
and 'im nah t'ief, not even a but'n
Jim start to wriggle
de police start to giggle
mama, mek I tell you wa dem do to Jim?
mek I tell you wa dem do to 'im?
Dem thump him him in him belly and it turn to jelly
Dem lick 'im pon 'im back and 'im rib get pop
Dem thump him pon him head but it tough like lead
Dem kick 'im in 'im seed and it started to bleed
Mama, I jus couldn't stan up deh, nah do nuttin'
So mi jook one in him eye and him started fi cry
me thump him pon him mout and him started fi shout
me kick him pon him shin so him started fi spin
me hit him pon him chin an him drop pon a bin
- an crash, an dead
More policman come dung
dem beat me to the grung
dem charge Jim fi sus
I hope the Brits don't react like we would in the US with endless investigations, congressional sub-committees, years of special reports and then a meaningless "shoot to kill" law ( Menezes law) passed unanimously by guilt ridden whimmpy senators.
If we had a shoot to kill out on Sadam we might not be fighting remaining baathists who think they can make a come-back. Everyone of these guys is just as much a danger behind bars as opposed to being dead.
When you're dead, you're out of the game forever. No muss, no fuss.
Fortunately the Brits have made it clear that the "shoot to kill" policy will remain in effect.You simply cannot take chances with suicide bomber on the loose.
Sorry, but I cannot feel too much sympathy for this "victim".At a time of high alert with suicide bombers on the prowl this guy resists authority and runs onto a subway train. That was just plain stupid. In the US you learn at an early age the folly of resisting arrest. Check out the link to the Chris Rock routine for more details.
Q: Why was he wearing a heavy coat?
Possible Answer: Summer temperatures in Brazil are in the 90-95 degree range with high humidity. Summers in Britain often only reach a high of 65 degrees with clouds and a breeze. Morning and night temperatures are often only in the 50s. Coming from a tropical country, this weather may have felt cold to him.
Q: Why was he running?
Possible Answers: The officers were not uniformed and he may have been scared that he was being mugged or they were not real police. He may also have committed a minor crime or some type of immigration violation and not want to be sent home.
I think the police were trigger-happy in this instance. They had him on the ground in the Tube and shot without first trying to feel his jacket and ascertain whether he actually was carrying a bomb or not. If they had him on the ground, they could have also handcuffed him so that he no longer posed a threat. It's very sad when it's not safe to live in western society when you have olive skin. I'm of Italian background and that could have easily been me. This is a victory for terrorism. When we have lost our freedom and our morality, Osama is winning.
This tragic incident truly proves beyond a
shadow of doubt, that the years of Dhimmitute
displayed by the Police throughout Britain
has left them completely impotent and incompetent
when it comes to dealing with Islam. The LIES
told by Sir Ian Blair truly turn my stomach, How
could anyone look into a camera and tell us with
the certainty he displayed that this poor man was
absolutely connected to the bombings, when he is
openly clueless about the where abouts of the real bombers and apparently their motives, as his tired mantra of Islam being a great and peaceful religion is still in full flow. Up until 7/7 all that concerned this disgusting individual was rooting Islamaphobia out of the Metroplitan police, maybe he should have kept his eyes on the angry muslims instead of the
honest hard working men and women of the
Metropolitan Police. My thoughts and prayers are
With this poor mans family, I do not believe as some have said that he is yet another victim of jihad, but rather a victim to Dhimmitute. If the Police and Government had of prosecuted these 7th Century Preachers years ago, instead of inviting yet more, Britain would not be in this sorry state today and this man would still be alive. The media are playing games with the truth, Sky News are now on the same
wave length as the BBC. The danger posed by an
unbalanced media will lead to greater gains for Islam throughout Europe. The religion of peace claims it’s victims daily, yet remains ever so peaceful.
Ryan,
They shot him while he was on the ground because suicide bombers will detonate their explosive and commit mass murder.They shot him in the head to take out the nervous system to keep him from detonating in the event he was a suicide bomber. He was a suspicious individual who resisted arrest, his death is unfortunate but no more then that. The victory for Osama comes when people like you who blame the authorities rather then blaming the Muslim terrorists who are despicable cowards who target civilians. Would it have been better if he was a suicide bomber to allow him to kill or maim another 50 people? I'd rather one fool was dead then another 50 commuters.
this has been mentioned before in relation to the dead guy being an electrician vis a vis bombs, however the bbc has reported that he is from an area of south london called Tulse Hill where it just so happens that a third person has been arrested. It might be a coincidence but seeings that he came out of a flat / block in stockwell which was under surveilance prior to being shot, coincidence may be..........I'll leave it to you to make your own conclusions.
And as for this "The Brazilian government and the public are shocked and perplexed that a peaceful and innocent person should have been killed," And this is from a nation that gave the world police death squads to clean up orphans in Rio
The terrorists definitely deserve most of the blame for this but we have to avoid going into such a panic that good judgement does not prevail. If we are so scared that we lose our freedom and rationality, then Osama wins because he has changed Western society. I don't believe Israel even has a "shoot-to-kill" policy. I havn't heard of any innocent people being killed in Israel just for wearing a winter coat in the summer.
If this guy was a real terrorist, he would not have been wearing the coat unless he had a bomb under it because he wouldn't want to draw unneccessary attention. All the evidence says that he was just an innocent Brazilian who thought London's summer was cold. I have relatives in Brazil and if someone who is ununiformed claims to be a police officer in Brazil and is chasing you, running is the proper thing to do. Brazil is one of the most dangerous countries in the world and that is where this guy was brought up.
This isn't exactly pleasant weather.
http://weather.yahoo.com/forecast/UKXX0085.html
Ryan,
The "shoot to kill" policy comes from Isreal.Sadly,the Isreali's know more then you or I about how best to deal with suicide bombers. He was shot while on the ground and in the head because suicide bombers have a habit of denotating their explosives committing mass murder.
Glad you see that Muslim terrorists are to blame for this man's death, not the authorities who are trying to save lives. I'm not convinced that this man is "innocent". He's an electrician who was observed leaving a house that was under surveilence in a terrorism probe.He resisted authorities and then fled from police when challenged.That is not the way an innocent man behaves.This man was warned and given a chance to surrender. What chance do Muslim terrorists give their victims?
Sul3j
yes the British Government i believe has been CRIMINALLY negligent in dealing with the threat islamic terror for years.
?
English politicians have allowed themselves to be Ignorant of Islam for years preferring for reasons of survival and multiculturism to swallow the line fed to them from apologists and the taqiya of Muslims hailing their religion as one of peace.
A neat and deadly effective taqiya to confuse and pacify the lumbering infidel.
Even today as the odd Muslim publically condemns "terror" they rush to embrace him as a "moderate" . My Goodness what cowardly appeasement. Anything but face the truth!
Livingstone has welcomed the most perfidious western hating mullahs to his bosom at public expense.
And he has the gall to shed tears at a public remembrance of the murdered.
Does he not know that they should be tears of Guilt!
Even the french and their despicable Chirac have done infinitely more than the Brits in warding off the immense threat of islam.
But to imply that the inept murder of a young Brazilian is acceptable and justified is to be terribly morally wrong. The ends cannot be held to justify the means or we are heading straight for the end of democracy.
Tree Hugger
If the unprepared police have commited this tragic error, it is because of years of Government dilly dallying on the most important issue facing Britain since WW2. in fact i should say sweeping under the carpet.
You may have a copy of the Charles Darwin handbook but not all are so fortunate and unless people are warned that anyone who does not freeze will be shot on site, you cannot use that argument to villify the young Brazilian.
Foehammer states that he was probaly a plant.
what arrogance and defamation of the innocent!
Surely if this had been the case the police would have issued a statement to that effect.
No, to their immense credit, they stated plainly that there was no connection whatsoever. For how easy would it have been to insert that FOehammer slur into their statement.
DO not forget that in an earlier thread all and sundry who visit this site including the often incredibly lucid Catherine, praised the execution of this jihadist Scum like a pack of white pointer sharks.
I too would have joined the pack, had i been convinced we were dealing with a Jihadist.
Of course the young man should not have run away assuming he knew he was being chased by plain Clothes police.
But to infer that simply wearing a padded jacket is reason enough to be executed is morally corrupt!
This was a tragedy that was going to happen sooner or later.
Bombing, shootings, police counter-shooting - innocent civilials killed at every turn, this was all predictable the moment our political elites decided to let muslims in. Now we have more legislation coming that will further undermine the freedoms that have taken centuries to evolve, and have sacrificed millions in the last two world wars to preserve. The elites of course did not have to do much sacrifice, just as they are not subject to the the same degree of privation as the common man in this new war from an entrenched fifth column. The DT points out that throughout the war years in WWII, there were hardly a handful of fifth column Nazis that were apprehended in Britain. I wonder what the the tally will be now.
The backlash against muslims in the West since 9/11, has been huge. So far, one elderly Sikh in Arizona and one Brazilian Catholic in London have been shot dead.
Blame the politicians. Any shoot-to-kill policy would have been authorised by the Home Office. The police would not make that decision themselves. The government should have made it very clear to the public what might happen if a person ran from a person shouting "Stop, Police" in a train station. Nobody is likely to make the same mistake now but the politicians were probably too shit-scared of the PC/Human Rights crowd to say "a shoot-to-kill policy has been agreed" last week.
Ryan is right about the coat. A Brazilian may feel cold in a British summer. I wear a lightweight raincoat or jacket all of the way through the winter when my Brazilian friend is still shivering under two sweaters and a fur coat.
Chevalier:
Actually the Jihadis and the moderates work in concert. After each terrorist outrage, muslim moderates come forward with their "Islam is RoP" mantra, and ask for special privelages for muslims in the country. This is followed up by demands that such and such activity or foreign policy be turned around to suit a muslim cause.
If we pulled out of Iraq, it wont make a difference. The demands will be anything that comes to their minds - severing economic ties with Israel, India, Thailand because of etc etc .
They work in concert, the jihadis and the muslim moderates, each in their own task to further the cause of islam. The jihadis provide the big booms of the orchestra, while the moderates, the siren song of the violins. They do not need any formal agreements to do this; it is understood.
There may be a few genuine muslim moderates but the majority are not. The moderates know that the jihadis have made the ultimate sacrifice for islam, and they are duty bound to extract as much as they can from that sacrifice.
Yes.....and we all know that if the bombers now see the chance to replicate this mans action and manage to get on a train in a Muslims area and slaughter hundereds (mainly Muslims) ,the same Muslims will protest and rant about how the Police didn't stop the man before he got in the Underground.
Wake-up people,Islam conditions Muslims to look for any chance to be offended, the built in paranoia and denial brought Britain to this stage and Brazil should sue the Saudis and the Muslim Council of Britain who are the real guilty parties in this Global conspiracy of silence
by Muslims as long as the major victims of JIHAD
are the "Filthy Jews and Christians" in Israel and the West.
I'll try to find the link to the Muslim TV show I watched last night that had a British female Muslim praising the Taliban and claiming that the real Global threat by terrorism is from the West and the "Zionists".
This is a show that gets Government grants to promote Multi-culturalism by educating the public on the Quran and Islam, similar to the youth centre in London where the Bombers met their mentors "Allah's Angels" .
BTW, all the time that Saddam was slaughtering female Muslims and the elderly
on a monthly basis it was these same "Defenders of Justice" in the west and Middle east that allowed it to go on while groups like CAIR whined
about Muslims in America not given prayer rooms at work or time off for those prayers.
I blame the U.N. and Saddam for creating the conditions that forced external powers that must exercise their Human rights values and stop the
killing of Muslims as the USA did and HAD done
in their 3 previous Wars where non-Muslims soldiers risked their lives on foreign soil ( Gulf war,Bosnia,Afghanistan) .
Muslims must realize that Christian Nation will take endless insults and attacks on thier values by Islam and Muslims,but in the end the people will still volunteer for Military service to die for the freedom of oppressed Muslims on the other side of the globe.
Contrast that to the Jihad (revenge killings) by Islamists and the rants by CAIR because of a perceived injustice done to a Muslim in North America.
Yes DP, i agree
and would add that the likely scenario when a Jihadist does get caught that he will not like the unfortunate Brazillian run away.
He will surrender immediately and let the muslims and their infidel cohorts of media supporters demonstators and accuse the Government of Unfair persecution.
everytime jihadists murder it is an act of divine justice. But the merest resistance or complaint by the infidel is portrayed as an act of persecution or racism. We have all learnt that lesson by now.
But in all thisawful threat to our civilisation, i do believe that we must strive to retain our humanity .
I am often inspired by Primo levi who did just that in the face of extreme brutality in Auschwitz.
The house where this man was living was under surveillance day and night. The police had already allowed him to get on the bus where he could have set a bomb off. There could, for example, have been a plain-clothes officer with a sniffer dog posing as a man taking his dog for a walk who could have pretended to ask this man directions whilst the dog was having a good nosey, or plain-clothes officers could have grabbed him in the street before he got on the bus.
We need to use a bit of brain rather than just brawn to deal with this situation. Such actions could cost the police some public support and co-operation.
Also why is no reward being offered for information leading to the arrest and prosecution of the men they have CCTV footage of?
Offering rewards encourages the public to be more vigilant plus it even gets the criminal fraternity on to the case at times.
Dirty Harry
(1971)
"Well I'm all broken up about that man's rights."
Harry: Ah Ah, I know what you're thinking. Did he fire six shots or only five? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?
WHERE'S DIRTY HARRY WHEN YOU NEED HIM?
Chevalier-
Common sense needs to be used by members of the public during these difficult times.
As I said, the police had only seconds to make their decision. If he had been wearing a bomb vest, he could have detonated it and taken killed them all.
I don't rejoice over his death, not at all.
It's a tragedy. However, I used to work in a police department as a dispatcher. You don't have time to mull things over when the s#$%t hits the fan. You make a split second decision based on your training and observations, and pray that it is the right one.
It could have very easily gone the other way, and five police officers and countless commuters could have been killed. Then everyone would have been calling for the heads of the officers (posthumously) for not acting fast enough.
Police officers are there to protect and serve, but that doesn't exempt the average citizen from using good judgement.
I shouldn't have made the Darwin award crack. It was uncalled for, and I apologize.
Well, if the Brazilian electrician was an innocent victim of police zeal, then I am sorry. I am sorry for him, for his family, and for all of us.
If he was innocent, then we have sacrificed one of our own. And we may pay dearly, in all the ways that have been pointed out and then some.
But we have to focus on the facts that led the police to engage in a stake-out (finding his address in the knapsack of one of the bombers) to follow him to see who he might meet or where he might go; to stop him when he entered the station and posed an escalated but unquantifiable risk; to chase him when he climbed the fence and fled; to hold him down; and when he screamed "I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it" to make the dicision to end it.
And so much went into that decision, believe me. Roxane knows the drill. That policeman (or soldier dressed as a policeman) was very well trained. He was not some regular street cop that happened to be carrying a handgun that day. He was trained to destroy the brain. And not just randomly. He knew that the body has reflexes, and some brain damage can cause muscles to tighten enough to press the detonator, if there is one. In a hostage situation, reflexes can cause the kidnapper to clench a trigger and kill the hostage accidentally. He knew that his object was to hit that part of the brain that would cause the subject to reflex "open" thereby dropping the knife, or gun, or detonator. The shooter must destroy the medulla oblongata and those parts of the brain that control the nerve pathways to the skeletal muscles.
And something else. The calibre of the bullet and the powder charge behind it must be selected (or created) to minimize the chance of through-and-through shots continuing some distance, or bouncing off the concrete in unpredictable directions and injuring a policeman or someone else. But you never know....So the officer was thinking about this, too. About the risks to his fellows.
This policeman was a trained killer, but it's better than an even chance that he had never taken a life before. Thanks to some dedicated people below the political radar, we have such men. We need them. We are going to need a lot more of them. And it is he that took the electrician's life, right or wrong. He'll be thinking about that. So am I. Right now, my sympathies are with the shooter.
Ryan
What mosque do you hail from???
Ryan
I think the police were trigger-happy in this instance.
This area of London is the last place in the UK for the police to play gung-ho mavericks,
I dont think the old bill(police) are that brain damaged to forget the riots of 1981,1985 and 1995
I believe that the police acted very cautiously and correctly in this situation.Anybody who disagrees with me should re-read my comments above
Well the rastas aint"burning an a looting"like they did when the old bill went to far before
What people seem to forget is that in this asymetrical terror war waged by jihadis, our police forces are now front line troops. They are just as front line as our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, but with much less firepower. This is another battle being waged by the jihadis for if they see that we in the West are weak, and begin caterwauling over such a death, they will win by being able to more easily go all 'splodeydope on and under our streets.
The shoot to kill policy is the correct one, and head shots are the only way by which to insure a suspect does not get his finger on any potential trigger, murdering dozens or more.