UK: Change foreign policy, say top Muslims

US readers won't get the humour of this headline. UK and Commonwealth readers will. In Britain "top" is a euphemisim for kill. Some one who "tops himself" is a suicide. It is not a kind use of the word which I think came from either the block or the gallows as a means of execution.

So a quick look at - "UK: Change foreign policy - top Muslims " sounded like a command, and one which I know a few people would relish. (But not the Barnabas Fund, see thread below)

These men are making threats to the British people. Their fascist ideology (especially that of the Qutbist Tammimi and Shdajareh) should be exposed relentlessly and their weasel words exposed for what they are - apologia for terrorism and suicide bombing.

It should be made clear to the British people that these men are making threats to us, that they are engaging in a rhetoric of violence and threat to the British people (sugar coated in the rhetoric of reason and debate - the patter of the snake oil salesman) - that they are apologists for suicide-slaughter, and that they are fascists, with fascist political ideologies.

Fascists must be exposed relentlessly and the British people must be made to take heed of the threats being made to them by Tammimi and other fascists and apologists for suicide-slaughter.

Bring the ideological battle on.

They shall not pass.

"............so long as we are in Iraq and so long as we are contributing to injustices around the world, we will continue to be in real danger."

Translation: Oppose Islam in any way, shape or form, and we will kill you.

"I believe if Tony Blair and George Bush left Iraq and stopped propping up dictatorial regimes in the Muslim world, the threat rate to Britain would come down to nearly zero."

What breathtaking hypocrisy. What does this moron think that Blair, Bush and co. did in Iraq? They kicked a "dictatorial regime in the Muslim world" out on its arse!

What thanks do they get for that? The same that the U.S. and U.K. and other western countries get whenever they save the bacon - er, lives - of Muslims everywhere (Bosnia, Kosovo, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, etc etc ); NONE!

'Top Muslims' - ha ha, nice one Granny W.

"I believe if Tony Blair and George Bush left Iraq and stopped propping up dictatorial regimes in the Muslim world, the threat rate to Britain would come down to nearly zero"

Yeah? And how long would that last? What about all the attacks before Iraq? What about Lockerbie, (1988) WTC 1 (1993) 9/11 (2001) Yvonne Fletcher (1984)to name but a few all before the UK entry into Iraq.

Iraq is not a reason, it's an excuse. Then what would the next excuse be? Criticism of hijab? Jamie Oliver's refusal to only serve halal school dinners? That planning permission to erect a minaret on some mosque was refused? That the spire of the parish church rises above the dome of that mosque?

Zico is right. When Mosley's blackshirts tried to march through the East End in 1936 the banner across Whitechapel read "They shall not Pass "
or Non Pasaran in the original Spanish.

I love how these people make excuses for heaartless murderers. Its like saying well sure this guy is guilty of rape but she shouldnt have been wearing those sexy clothes..you cant blame the rapist...so sick.

What a nasty world we live in

GrannyW;

i always enjoy your contributions. You made me remember a British TV show that ran briefly here in the US, a kids show called "SuperGran" about a very quick granny who fought the forces of evil
in, i believe, a town called Chiselton.
My kids absolutely adored it, even taping episodes, and we were able to use the threat of withholding it as a way of making them "mind".

keep up the good work and i'm going to put you in for a promotion.

as for the entry above, this is a textbook example of following violence with demands shadowed by threats of more violence.

we should turn the tables and tell the fascists, "excuse me, but you are not in a position to dictate demands. on the contrary, if you don't give up your murderous basta*ds and unequivocally denounce the islamic roots of this terror(as if), immediately, we will escalate aggression against
all those who, in our paranoid infidal opinions,
are source and supporters of islamic terror,
ANYWHERE WE SEE FIT, GLOBALLY, WITH WHATEVER MEANS WE CHOOSE, WITHOUT WARNING.

The truth is the heat is on British Muslims and they don't like it which is why they keep coming up with excuses about why they are the least integrated immigrant community of anyone in the UK.

Zico + GW,

Is this the same Tamimi who says it's O.K. to blow up Israeli buses, as off duty soldiers are riding on them?

If so, I saw him interviewed by Tucker Carlson, in London, on 7/9. At that time he tried to apologize for, and ratitionalize:

Muslims dancing in the streets on 9/11.
Killing Jewish soldiers in nightclubs as revenge for Jenin.

He also stated that he was not yet honored to be a member of Hamas.

And he rolled out the time-tested "the Israeli's have F16's and Apaches, what do you expect the Palenstinians to do?" rag.

Carlson was quite good that evening, and put him on the spot numerous times.

Every one of this guy's statements and foolish arguments should be documented, and used against him at every opportunity.

"Dr." (of "Islamic Sciences" no doubt) Azzam Tamimi was exposed as a Hamas supporter, and possibly member, by Martin Kramer some time ago. Yet, even after being exposed, he was given a full-page in Time Magazine to deliver himself of his thoughts to an American audience, and has frequently been called on by the BBC World Service, to deliver his thoughts as a perfectly respectable representative of the "British Muslim community." Will the Lord Haw-Haws and Tokyo Roses of the BBC, so conveniently located right smack in the middle of London, continue to call on Tamimi?

Probably.

Granny

Keep calling them what they are - out and out fascists - and reclaim the righteousness of the past and all the great anti-fascist heritage of our country - dont stop identifying them as fascists and calling them fascists until Tammimi and his ilk cannot be seen by a single person in our country without the stamp of FASCIST across his forehead - because that is what they are - make them pariahs as Nick Griffin is and John Tyndall was - they are fascists pure and simple and they will not be allowed to make threats to the British people couched in their weasel-sweet-rhetoric of appeasement. They are not 'extremists' or 'militants' - they are pure and simple fascists and they lap up and love the violence that the suicide-psychopaths have commited.

And if Iraq had not been invaded, they would have suicide-bombed us anyway, saying: 'You let Saddam Hussein stay in power and you kill millions of Iraqi children in genocidal economic sanctions' - and those oily, oleaginous, slimeball fascists Tammimi and his intellectual brutish and loutish associates would still be crying what they cry now.

The British people can see them for what they are - let them keep cutting their own throats - they are coarse, barbarian and stupid - they reveal their fascist face every time they open their fascist mouths and make threats of 'more to come' in their sweet, conciliatory tones.

They Shall Not Pass.

PRCS

Yes, it is the one and same Tammimi - currently showing his nasty face on TV news advising on what Britain should do to save itself from further fascist attack. He is the Mother of all Creeps - an oleaginous and weasely apologist for terrorism.

It never ceases to amaze me how the "Muslim Community" is offended by some Western policy or action, and therefore justifies the actions of Islamic terrorists.
Using the same logic, the very same Muslic Community should understand that the inhumane, misogynist, zenophobic, anti-anything-not-Islamic Sharia law and barbaric attitudes of Muslim nations (think Darfur, think Saudi near-slavery of non-Muslim household servants, think Taliban), therefore justify any military action by the West, regardless of 'collateral damage'.
Muslims everywhere, moderate or not, better realize that if the West starts to play by the same rules as Islam, the supposed outrages they protest now will become their 'fond memories' of the future. Islamic arrogance, and not Western policies, are creating fertile ground for a war that everyone on the planet wants to avoid.

I'm relatively new to Dhimmi Watch and Jihad Watch, but I am very glad to have found them. The whimpering and whinning of Western politcians was beginning to make me wonder just how we were going to win a war against an enemy no-one wanted to admit existed.

Zephyr - spot on. You'll fit in round here very well.

Zephyr

"The whimpering and whinning of Western politcians was beginning to make me wonder just how we were going to win a war against an enemy no-one wanted to admit existed."

Not just Western politicians -- the PC Leftist disease is rampant and dominates our sociopolitical existence. Millions of ordinary citizens in the West are so brainwashed they can't criticize Islam, but must instead blame the West and most especially America and Israel.

We need more creeps like Tamimi and Omar Masri who are telling us "which way the wind blows"- they are -even when they lie through their teeth- more honest than most of the sinister Imams and Muftis who seeth with hatred and wouldn't even give an infidel reporter the light of day.

Guys like Tamimi and Masri are not only the clowns of the scourge, but they actually give us a clear picture what the majority (if not all) Mohammedans stand for.

Thank you t-ham. She was Scottish, while I am English but our taste in hats was not dis-similar. I am flattered.

They shall not pass

"UK: Change foreign policy - top Muslims

British Muslims attempt to dictate the UK's foreign policy"

Twisting and perverting material to fulfil your own evil agenda, nice. Rebecca, I'm surprised Robert Spencer gave you the authority to make such silly posts.

“British Muslims attempt to dictate the UK's foreign policy”

Pathetic.

It is not just Muslims that oppose American Imperialism. You right wing redneck fundamentalist White supremacists should realise that the words you wish to hear from Blair and Bush will not be said. This war is not against Islam no matter how much you want it to be. This is a war about American Imperialism, its about Money, its about power and greed. Open you eyes, Britain’s policy is to follow the US in her quests simply because it benefits the UK, that is all. When it is no longer profitable this special friendship will finish. Every country is in this loot-fest simply for their own benefit. You need to open your eyes.

How many Muslims in Britain practise Islam peacefully??? You don’t know anything. You speak for no one.

Islam this, Muslim that, blah blah
Arm Europeans, Blah blah, deport them blah blah

You death worshippers need to open your eyes. Britain will do what is best for Britain, not what is best for the US. Britain owes the US nothing and vice versa, as Bush told the British in Scotland during the G8 talks.

Britain does many things that I don't agree with, that is the selling of weapons to dictatorial regimes and to regimes that completely ignore UN resolutions. Notably Saudi Arabia, Israel and Syria

Rebecca, you wish to harm me and my family. What do you expect me to do???

Tell me, this is to all the people here, I know some here are reasonable people, what do you want from me???

After 7/7 everyone’s focus was drawn to the extremists in the UK, well we should fight it together, No, that was not good enough for the people here. What do you want???

Australia's John Howard mentioned how ridiculous this argument is in his joint news conference with Tony Blair. He noted that 9/11 happened long before there was an Iraq war and that Australians were murdered in Bali prior to Iraq and supposedly because the Aussies supported East Timor. I'll also add that children and there parents were murdered at Beslan even though Russia is not involved in Iraq.

Howard made the point that no self respecting country can allow it's foreign policy to be dictated by terrorist. Yet this is the strategy that "top Muslims" would suggest?Can you say fifth column. The problem, which more and more people are beginning to mention publically is having large numbers of Muslims in the West. Every other group becomes assimilated except Muslims.These were second and third generation Muslims born and raised in Britian who chose to kill their fellow citizens.You do not have these problems with any other group the problem is not with Iraq it's with Islam.

ia786, we don't wish to harm you and your family.

Are you saying that because you wish to harm us?

If muslims can get Blair to revise his foreign policy, then they will try to get Blair to bring in shariah law.

Saladin, Queen of the Sahara, 1a:

"You death worshippers need to open your eyes."

The pot calling the kettle black. Its Muzzies (OBL/Zarqawi) constantly claiming "we love death, you love life" etc.

1a: What are you actually doing to fight the "radicals" in your midst?" Are you reading from the Koran to them to pacify them?

Enlighten me 1a:

Point out some passages in the Koran that clearly state that Islam wants to coexist peacefully with infidels and Jews!

Thank you for your effort, looking forward to hearing from you...

IA786-

"You right wing redneck fundamentalist White supremacists should realise that the words you wish to hear from Blair and Bush will not be said. This war is not against Islam no matter how much you want it to be. This is a war about American Imperialism, its about Money, its about power and greed. Open you eyes, Britain’s policy is to follow the US in her quests simply because it benefits the UK, that is all. When it is no longer profitable this special friendship will finish. Every country is in this loot-fest simply for their own benefit. You need to open your eyes".

Yep, this has been SUCH a financially successful investment for the US.

It's been to our advantage to send off our best and bravest to some strange foreign country to be put in harm's way, and to spend billions of our hard earned money to rebuild said country.

I believe my own check for the lootfest is currently in the mail.......or so the all powerful Karl Rove, King of the Rednecks, has told me.

Sorry, IA, this war has cost the US a heck of a lot more then we'll ever get back. And of course, no thanks for getting rid of the Taliban or Saddam. Would you prefer to have lived under either of those regimes, IA? Or under the gentle care of the Saudis, or in the peaceful gardens of Pakistan? I note that you are in no hurry to leave the shores of great Britian for a place where Muslims are more appreciated.

I can hardly wait for the day the last American boots leave the soil of Iraq and Afghanistan, and our brave boys are home.

BTW, please stop trying to play the race card. Islam is NOT A RACE, it is both a religion and a political ideology. I note that in the Christian Science Monitor article, one of the Muslims who wants to overthrow the UK is of Irish origin. That makes him just as dangerous as any militant immigrant of Pakistani origin.

"ia786, we don't wish to harm you and your family.

Are you saying that because you wish to harm us?"

You may not, there are some here that definitely want to. Some of the death worshippers here seem adamant on hurting peaceful Muslims in the UK, well in real life do you think I would stand for that??? The things being said here are horrid, if they were to happen they would affect me, and yes my family will be harmed. You many not really want to think about the reality of the horrid things you mention but let me tell you in real life I wouldn’t stand for it.

Saladin, Ia (-sole)

Put a bomb in your shoe and blow away:

http://www.terrorists-suck.org/shoebomber

http://islamcomicbook.com/lyrics.htm

ia786

It is Muslims doing the killing, suicide bombing, mass slaughter, murder, terrorism in Britain today - do not forget it.

"Yep, this has been SUCH a financially successful investment for the US.

It's been to our advantage to send off our best and bravest to some strange foreign country to be put in harm's way, and to spend billions of our hard earned money to rebuild said country."

That was the plan. The US is in Iraq however the rebels refuse to let the Rednecks loot their country.

That is the reality of war, sending off young men to die for oil, McDonalds and Israel.

"Sorry, IA, this war has cost the US a heck of a lot more then we'll ever get back. And of course, no thanks for getting rid of the Taliban or Saddam. Would you prefer to have lived under either of those regimes, IA? Or under the gentle care of the Saudis, or in the peaceful gardens of Pakistan? I note that you are in no hurry to leave the shores of great Britian for a place where Muslims are more appreciated.

I can hardly wait for the day the last American boots leave the soil of Iraq and Afghanistan, and our brave boys are home."

So America went in to Iraq to help the poor Iraqi people???

Lets see what some US fat cats had to say in the past.

_________________________________________________

Madelaine Albright has said 'we do not agree that if Iraq complies with its obligations concerning weapons of mass destruction, sanctions should be lifted.' In 1997 The New York Times quoted Clinton as saying 'Sanctions will be there until the end of time or as long as he [Hussein] lasts.

But Saddam Hussein, his friends and cronies have not been hurt by sanctions. They have managed to safeguard their privileged lifestyle with the profits of smuggling. And with the mood of the country infected by anti-US feeling, Saddam Hussein's position in power has only been strengthened. While the West has criticised Saddam Hussein for restricting the political and civil rights of the Iraqi people, the embargo has removed their economic and social rights.

Meanwhile US and UK politicians insist that the sanctions regime is necessary to contain the threat of Saddam Hussein. When asked on US television whether the death of 500,000 Iraqi children as a result of sanctions was justified Madelaine Albright replied 'I think this is a very hard choice, but the price - we think the price is worth it.'

They have starved and killed the Iraqi people. They have poisoned the country with DU. Saddam was the US' best friend, I'm sure that &astard Rumsfeld will tell you that. I'm sure the Taliban have fond memories of their visit to America.

Open your eyes, read books, watch documentaries, here’s a good site for you.

http://www.johnpilger.com/

Zephyr,

Muslims everywhere, moderate or not, better realize that if the West starts to play by the same rules as Islam, the supposed outrages they protest now will become their 'fond memories' of the future.

We don’t really need to stoop to their level and “play by the same rules “

Suffice that we play by the most natural, supremely moral and common to all civilizations rule that one must not sustain one’s enemy.
The West is the iron lung and feeding pipe of that sordid eyesore known as the World of Islam. Without West’s pity this 1400 years old atrocity would implode and become one gigantic Somalia. Brutish, filthy, hungry and hopeless - doomed to swim forever in the latrine of history.

I hope that soon we will have governments honest and wise enough to make it clear to these shamelessly ungrateful parasites that if they continue bite the hand that feeds them that very hand will shut the pipes of mercy that keeps Islam alive. Which means kicking out Moslems from our lands, shutting our borders to Moslem immigration and stopping all aid to Moslem countries.
And what will they do about it? Complain to their Allah?
Now that's really scary!

ia786

You are an apologist for the terrorists.

"You are an apologist for the terrorists."

Tell me, what is a terrorist? Someone that opposes American Imperialism?!?!?

Nope, we went in for US interests, one of which was WMDs (among the other items listed in the original documents). Rather then invading, deposing Saddam, searching for WMDS, then getting the heck out, we have stayed to rebuild and set up a hopefully decent functioning government.

I suppose we could have invaded and just let all hell break lose after we left. After all, why should it bother us if the Muslims kill each other (sarcasm). Or, we should have let him continue with his weapons programs, invade and conquer Kuwait, and on to Saudi Arabia, Iran. More wars, more dead Muslims. But after all, if they are killed by fellow muslims, it doesn't count, does it?

It would have spared the lives of many US soldiers if we hadn't made the effort.

I am becoming more and more convinced that we need to separate from the Muslim world, and discontinue Muslim immigration to the west.
Our worldviews are too different to comfortably coexist, at least at present.....

Treehugger,

Wrong. There were no WMD in Iraq, Condoleeza and Powell said this in 2001-2, I think, I will search for the quotes if you want them.

Iraq was invaded because it wasn't a threat, It was a weak country that had been bombed for the last 12 years. If it was a threat the US would have done something different.

"we have stayed to rebuild and set up a hopefully decent functioning government."

Yes, the US also has plans for 14 permanent bases in Iraq.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/040323-enduring-bases.htm

Don't tell me how the US wants the best for the Iraqi people. The US admin are racist *astards. Lets not forget that the US is the only nation to have used the nukes, on civilians. People like you and me. Well you shouldn't worry, the US will never nuke white people, its only people that are not white.

The US has destroyed Iraq, offered contracts to some two faced American companies, stolen artefacts, the US tortures Iraqi prisoners, the US has let the same torturers they complained about back in.

West turns blind eye as police put Saddam's torturers back to work

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1683578,00.html

This is a war about American imperialism.

Israel seeks pipeline for Iraqi oil

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,940250,00.html

Who are the people resisting White Supremacy in Iraq, lets see what a U.S. Military Chief has to say, are they all cold blooded killers????

http://207.44.245.159/article9103.htm

U.S. Military Chief Admits, 'Good and honest' Iraqis Are fighting US forces

THE TRUTH - Why did the Bush Government wage war on Iraq?

a) To protect Israel NOT America.
b) To control and direct the entire world, through ownership of major global oil resources.
c) To prevent further OPEC momentum towards the euro as an global oil transaction currency standard.
Political FACT: 'He who owns the most oil, controls the world.'
- Iraq has 112 billion barrels of proven reserves worth about US $3,242,400,000,000 at current market prices.
- The Caspian Sea Oil Reserves (above Iraq) are valued at 33 Billion Dollars.
- Saddam switched in late 2000 from dollars to euros for oil currency. Iran is considering switching also.

http://www.worldmessenger.20m.com/war.html

IA786-
We can go on and on about this.....

We didn't start the fight with Japan. The peaceful nowhite people attacked us.
Have you read of the rape of Nanking? The peaceful nonwhite people mercilessly killed other nonwhite people.

Of course, the peaceful Arabs never invaded other countries or killed millions in India, or were prime movers in the slave trade. Of course they don't kill other nonwhites even as we speak in Kashmir, or India, or Darfur. The Aztecs NEVER ripped out the beating hearts of living victims.....

No nonwhite person has ever had a cruel or vicious thought!

Those nonwhite fighters resisting evil white supremency in Iraq seem to be killing an awful lot of innocent nonwhite people.

If you object to the way Iraq is being run now, talk to the IRAQI GOVERMENT. Other then security issues, the rule of Iraq is now in the HANDS OF IRAQIS. Do you object to the way the nonwhite people are running their own government? Why are you complaining to us white overlords? IA, How racist of you!!!!

And did you expect US companies to do the work for free? Should we have just let the schools and the water system, etc. rot like Saddam did?
Who is paying for this anyway? The US, so why are you worried?

Personally, I think this was a huge waste of our time and energy. Let's move to alternative energy, and no more immigration to western lands, muslims (of all colors and races) can solve their own problems without our assistance, financial or technical.

Quite frankly, I'm sick of being the world's policeman. Figure it out for yourselves.

Recently a poster here contributed a long article about numerology, and the special event nature of some numbers, and combination of numbers. 7/7...7/21...777...three 7's =21, which reduces to 3, the number of manifestation and on and on. According to Alex Jones...Infowars.com, these event numbers are signitures of the globalist Illuminati who are the culprits behind all this terrorism, in order to lock the world down into a police planet.
What I want to know is, how do a bunch of Texas white boys, representing the Illuminati, get muslims to blow themselves up in the name of infidel power. Who really talked Atta into 911...was it Rove, or Bush, or Blair. They must be fast talkers...and how does the Illuminati get all these different clerics to go along with the plan...? The numbers add up, but the plot is screwy.
IA would love this stuff...no muslim is guilty of anything, Islams hands are clean...it's that pesky Illuminati thats stirring the pot. The numbers prove it...dont they???

Saladin:

Muzzie BS & Commie-Propaganda!

Hopeless,,,

Why don't you post that homoerotical depiction of 'Prophet Mo' once again so we can have a good laugh at Arabian fairy-tales?

is786,

Your assertions are ridiculous and a desperate attempt to divert attention from Muslims onto the governments of the US and the UK.Your problem is that people are no longer buying it.People know Muslims will kill for any reason hijab bans, Iraq, Isreal,"honor",East Timor, Muslim failures. You name it any reason will suffice.The problem is Islam not the US and not Western civilization.

I saw a military expert on MSNBC this morning who made the point that the four men wanted in the most recent attempted bombings are no doubt hiding in the Muslim community. He said that if they were suicide bombers they were ment to have died in the recent attacks and with no back up plan they returned to Muslim communities they came from. He said it's up to the Muslim community to give these four men up.If the men are not turned over the focus and the blame will remain with Muslims and Muslims will increasing feel the heat.People will wonder why Muslim chose to hide men who are enemies of the British people.That has much greater significance then what's may or may not be happening in Iraq.

Two articles in the DT worth a read

First one is getting close to the mark

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/07/24/do2402.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/07/24/ixopinion.html

The next is one step back

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/07/24/dl2401.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/07/24/ixopinion.html

ia786,

You and I have both been reading and posting here for some months, now.

And I'm still confused about what Muslims believe, and why. I'm not interested in tribal customs or beliefs, but rather what each and every Muslim will believe, regardless of sect or geographic location, based upon the Qur'an and applicable Islamic teachings.

The goal, for me, will be to develop a list of undeniable, and irrefutable Muslim beliefs.

And what better person to ask, than a Muslim.

So, why don't we begin a dialogue, right here, and try to clear up some of that confusion. Let's stick with straight forward questions and honest answers.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am an agnostic, and have no interest in defending any religion.

Here's my first question to you.

Other than personal notes and such, is there anything in your copy of the Qur'an that isn't in Usama bin Laden's copy?

ia786:

Have you come up with the links to islamic sites where you have debaterd against extremists.

ia786-

"You right wing redneck fundamentalist White supremacists should realise that the words you wish to hear from Blair and Bush will not be said. This war is not against Islam no matter how much you want it to be. This is a war about American Imperialism, its about Money, its about power and greed. Open you eyes, Britain’s policy is to follow the US in her quests simply because it benefits the UK, that is all. When it is no longer profitable this special friendship will finish. Every country is in this loot-fest simply for their own benefit. You need to open your eyes".

Yup, it would be so much better if Islamic Imperialism ruled the day, and all that oil money stayed in the Islamic countries so well known for their efforts to bring freedom and diversity to the world. And the names of those Islamic countries are....

Go ahead ia786, let us know when you find them.

As for me, I'll support and defend the United States of America, because even with its faults and mistakes, it has done more to preserve peace, support humanity, and respect the God given rights of human beings everywhere, than the entirety of Islam's "peaceful religion".

"Personally, I think this was a huge waste of our time and energy. Let's move to alternative energy, and no more immigration to western lands, muslims (of all colors and races) can solve their own problems without our assistance, financial or technical."

That will never happen. The white supremacists sitting in Washington need and want the World to be dependant on oil. If they control this resource, they control the World, they can hold everyone back. Read about what the Neo-Cons want.

As for me, I'll support and defend the United States of America, because even with its faults and mistakes, it has done more to preserve peace, support humanity, and respect the God given rights of human beings everywhere, than the entirety of Islam's "peaceful religion".

"preserve peace"

Dropping bombs on Vietnam, more bombs were dropped on Vietnam than all those in WW2!!! Raping French women and girls during WW2.

"support humanity"

Poisoning Iraq with DU, arming dictatorial regimes, (Egypt, Saudi), supporting countries that oppose many UN resolutions (Israel), looting countries resources, refusing to take part in the kyoto agreement. Abandoning the Shias after they were encouraged to rise against Saddam. Ignoring global warming and other problems affecting all humanity. Globalisation.

"respect the God given rights of human beings everywhere"

The civilians in Japan had the God given right to be nuked as they weren’t white. Intentionally letting Iraqi children die. Arresting innocent people across the World and having them tortured. Bombing weddings and demonstrators.

You may not, there are some here that definitely want to. Some of the death worshippers here seem adamant on hurting peaceful Muslims in the UK, well in real life do you think I would stand for that??? The things being said here are horrid, if they were to happen they would affect me, and yes my family will be harmed. You many not really want to think about the reality of the horrid things you mention but let me tell you in real life I wouldn’t stand for it.

Posted by: ia786 at July 24, 2005 03

ia786, you sound like you're getting ready to go off to jihad or something, over some perceived yet non-existant 'muslim backlash'. And your 'white supremicist' conspiracy theories are becoming quite nauseating. Why don't you calm down?

Are you getting fearful of the fact that so many of the infidels and kafirs are now REALLY becoming informed about islam? Where are the thousands of muslims in Britain out protesting the horrid actions of your beloved brethren in islam? The lack of action against muslim terrorism by muslims is what will be your ultimate downfall.

Reform yourselves.

Ia, Queen of Bethshambas:

You must be reading too much of Osma's crap !

And you call yourself a 'moderate?'

"Reform yourselves."

What the hell do you think I have been telling you lot???

IA is not only a apologistic for Islam, and a blame everyone else first conspirasy theorist, but a liberal as well. I suppose the democratic side of the US gov, the Neo-Dems dont want oil.
Liberals would rather walk than see cheap oil flowing from The Mid East oil monopoly.
IA forgets that the west could just 'take' all the oilfields in the entire world, if it wanted. Like Venezuela's as an example. Why not go there and take over. Few muslims, few terrorists and an easy to knock over military.
Then there is China's increasing thirst for oil...are they part of the conspiracy as well?
Maybe...Nostradamas predicted that China will invade the area and ww3 will end in Iran...
Well, oil is important, and is one of the spokes in the wheel, but it is not the only one.
IA is blind in one eye and cant see out of the other...Allah has seen to it, and Allah knows best...

The civilians in Japan had the God given right to be nuked as they weren’t white.

Have you ever read "The Rape of Nanking"? The Japanese were imperialists with a master race mentality. They use to hunt Chinese like animals for sport.Literally any Chinese female from age 8 to 80 was fair game for rape by Japanese soldiers. There are pictures of dazed Chinese women tied nude to chairs for "easy access" by Japanese soldiers.Japenese considered the Chinese less then human and Koreans even less than that.The Japanese also killed more Chinese then were killed when the A-Bombs were dropped on Japan. Chinese, Koreans and other Asian victims of Japanese imperialism resent the sympathy people like you give the hated Japanese.The attacks on the Japanese embassy in China a few months ago were because the Chinese accused Japan of trying to whitewash their WW2 atrocities.The Japanese are still hated by the Chinese today. Why not try reading before repeating nonsense.

"IA is not only a apologistic for Islam, and a blame everyone else first conspirasy theorist, but a liberal as well. I suppose the democratic side of the US gov, the Neo-Dems dont want oil."

I call things down the middle. The World is in danger, mainly due to the selfishness of the US.

"IA forgets that the west could just 'take' all the oilfields in the entire world, if it wanted."

They could but the people of the West would never agree, everyone hates war, the thought of the 'civilised West' openly invading a country simply for their resources is something people here could never imagine. That is why lies are used, that is why we are lied to, that is why the US admin are two faced 8astards.

"Then there is China's increasing thirst for oil...are they part of the conspiracy as well?
Maybe...Nostradamas predicted that China will invade the area and ww3 will end in Iran..."

The US' push for Global dominance will cause WW3, the seeds have been sown, the US barred France, Germany, China and Russia from bidding for the Iraqi contracts. The US now has Iran in its sights, China knew this and signed a (?) 70 Billion dollar Gas and Oil agreement with Iran, Russia has promised to carry on with the Nuclear reactor. What we are seeing happen in the Mid-east is very significant, very important. Russia has promised to help the Palestinians. War will come out of nowhere. No one will expect it. Only Jesus will be able to stop it.

"Have you ever read "The Rape of Nanking"? The Japanese were imperialists with a master race mentality. They use to hunt Chinese like animals for sport.Literally any Chinese female from age 8 to 80 was fair game for rape by Japanese soldiers. There are pictures of dazed Chinese women tied nude to chairs for "easy access" by Japanese soldiers.Japenese considered the Chinese less then human and Koreans even less than that.The Japanese also killed more Chinese then were killed when the A-Bombs were dropped on Japan. Chinese, Koreans and other Asian victims of Japanese imperialism resent the sympathy people like you give the hated Japanese.The attacks on the Japanese embassy in China a few months ago were because the Chinese accused Japan of trying to whitewash their WW2 atrocities.The Japanese are still hated by the Chinese today. Why not try reading before repeating nonsense."

That’s got nothing to do with my statement. I am not denying what the Japanese did.

ia is barking up the wrong tree. Nobody here wants to harm him, but he might not want to take his sufi family for a visit to the sunni parts of Iraq.

In the crazed, topsy-turvy world of the Muslims, it is the West that wishes the world to be dependent on oil, not the Arabs and Muslims who have no other real source of income once the jizyah of Infidel foreign aid is eliminated, and once the jizyah of welfare benefits and "integration" efforts for Muslms within Infidel lands are ended. This, of course, is the opposite of the truth. It is the Arab and Muslim members of OPEC who are attempting to make sure that they will somehow -- so they think -- be able to claim some kind of "compensation" if the world manages to get off oil, thus rendering the reserves that happen to be located under their various land surfaces far less valuable.

Fat chance.

ia786

You are a typical British Pakistani consumed with a hatred for America and the West and Israel that manifests itself as a religious ideology of hatred that is half-witted in its ahistoricism and stupidity, idiotic persecution complex, and its feeding into the tropes and philosophy of bigotry and fascism that infects British Muslims and lead to the terrorist slaughter in London.

Instead of introspecting and looking inside and questioning why fascism, intolerance, terrorism and Nazi like hatreds fester in your community, you rant and bark and squeal about 'American Imperialism'

You just dont get it, do you? Your house is on fire and you are pointing at others. This idiotic and rabid hatred and hysteria is what let those fascists mix in a world full of Pakistanis with chips on their shoulders the size of Mount Everest and nursing grudges against the entire non Muslim world.

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE YOU IDIOT!

YOUR PEOPLE ARE SLAUGHTERING US IN THE NAME OF ISLAM!

Why the hell are you ranting about America for you half-wit, you stick-your-head-in-the-sand moron?

Sort your fascist suicide bombing co-religionists out you imbecile and buffoon! How many more fascist Pakistani boys from England are going to blow themselves up before you get the message you sap?

Ia786 how does it feel to get suspicious looks wherever you go? People of all hues are checking you out, looking at you up and down. Everyone’s against you. They’re all out to get you. They’re all talking and whispering about you. You should leave the country now before it’s too late. Or are you afraid you will get nuked if you move to where you belong? What a choice, if you stay you’ll either be shanked by vigilantes, shot by the police or blown up by another muzzie. If you leave you’ll eventually be nuked by a Western country. What’s the advantage of being Islamic again?

"You just dont get it, do you? Your house is on fire and you are pointing at others. This idiotic and rabid hatred and hysteria is what let those fascists mix in a world full of Pakistanis with chips on their shoulders the size of Mount Everest and nursing grudges against the entire non Muslim world."

You are the one that just doesn't get it. I know that our house isn't in order, I have discussed ways to combat that, completely ignored by the death worshippers here as my solutions didn't involve Muslims being killed.

I am discussing something DIFFERENT here. I am discussing a different subject.

"YOUR PEOPLE ARE SLAUGHTERING US IN THE NAME OF ISLAM!"

My people?!?!

Get over yourself, 'My people' have happened to kill many more Muslims in the process, 'My people' have killed many more Muslims in their 'Holy War' that has been rejected by the majority of peaceful Muslims and has also been rejected by the Scholars and Awliyah.

"Why the hell are you ranting about America for you half-wit, you stick-your-head-in-the-sand moron?"

As I stated I am discussing something different here. You get over yourself, you get your head out of the sand.

I'm a simple guy, I call things as I see them. I see America doing many bad things in the World. I have nothing against the people of America, the politicians are two faced 8astards. Read my earlier posts again.

If you want to blame anyone for my views, blame my uni, it was them that fully opened my eyes. They gave us books and told us things that broke our hearts, they were not fairy tales, they were about American Imperialism. We live in a very bad World.

Why would a person such IA786 choose to continue to live in infidel territory?

No muslim person has ever been able give me straight answer to this question.

"Ia786 how does it feel to get suspicious looks wherever you go?"

I'm not Brazilian.

"People of all hues are checking you out, looking at you up and down."

Really, how did you find out? Please, you may find me irresistible but let me tell you now, I am not interested.

"Why would a person such IA786 choose to continue to live in infidel territory?

No muslim person has ever been able give me straight answer to this question."

________________________________________________

I love Britain.

ia786,

What I and several others here are trying to get through to you, is that when we look at Islamic society, the view is far darker, and destructive in the past, and in intent right now, than anyone else except for maybe, just maybe, the communists. We can go on and on like this. (By the way, your comments on Vietnam, and WW2 show a terrible ignorance of those events. You aren't helping your cause with them.)

What you are going to have to do, in spite of the facts mind you, is prove that Islam is somehow better than what the West has to offer.

When I stop seeing the hypocritical support for terrorists by Muslims, I might start thinking that Muslims can be reasoned with. Until then, I can not believe Islam is a peaceful religion, accepting (and not the false tolerance of dhimmitude) of other people, religion, and real human rights.

The usual horse fertilizer from i am a number (as opposed to a rational thinking person).

But his/her post do raise some wider issues. The almost relentless toll exacted by the propaganda from the demented left is having a bearing on western policy.

The Pilgers of this world have had their own platform practically unchallenged for the past thirty years. We all know how susceptable muslims and the left are to hyperbole and this does undoubtedly put fuel on the fire.

I remember reading as a young person(lets keep to the spirit of things) the New Internaionalist, which was the only international current affairs magazine available in the school library. Even at my young age I could see through the total garbage spouted by these so called experts, the post Iranian revolution editions were especially poor, embarassingly poor. This should be thrown back at them.

The guardian article that ia786 mentions is another example, a discussion of a pipeline project, between two non-entities becomes a part of some US imperalist design.

If anything ia786 this shows just how ill prepared and badly thought out the 'light unto muslim nations' project actually was.

First - if the US invaded Iraq to provide Israel with oil, why wasn't this project discussed prior to invasion, with Jordanian gov. who would need to give the final go ahead. Of course nothing, if anything this project if it could ever get of the ground would be twenty or thirty years in the making. It can never happen, just dreams, just a not very news worthy discussion between several non entities, who have little understanding of the ME. Note "James Akins, a former US ambassador to the region and one of America's leading Arabists" says practically everything about this report.
"Sources at the State Department said that concluding a peace treaty with Israel is to be 'top of the agenda' for a new Iraqi government, and Chalabi is known to have discussed Iraq's recognition of the state of Israel." Chalabi a spy and a dupe for Iran, gave the US everything the US wanted to hear, it was almost too good to be true. Had the US researched Iraq, Arabs and islam properly, this wouldn't have happened.

This is not a proper piece of journalism, it's junk, designed from the outset to poison the minds of the ignorant and impressionalble masses. I'm quite sorry you do not have the awareness or the intellectual capacity to recognise it at such (but then again as Hugh points out the 'atmospherics of islam', what else can we expect).

The Blairs, Kepels, Lewis, Straws, Armstrongs (and many others) of this world have either failed us or lied to us. This is slowly dawning on the infidels.

Each passing day in the UK, more and more people are becoming aware of islam really teaches. Another example of this is Ms. Jasmin Alibhai Brown in a recent article in the national press on women changing things in islam. She stressed that parts, not all of the Qu'ran were favourable to women. She would have not done this five years ago, she now knows that to remain credible she cannot spout the usual apologist taquiya. It's not fooling anyone any more.

The times are a changing.

JV

Your not supposed to "Love" Britain. Britain is an inaminate object. Held together by documents.
You can 'like' it a lot, but it is impossible to 'love' it...you are only supposed to love Allah...Im not sure if Allah or the prophet told you to that or not. Probably not...Please provide the Quranic verses or even a Hadith that says you must love Allah and Britain. Britain is run by the white supremists that you hate. The same bunch that run the US, and Russia as well.
So that cant be what you 'love' about Britain. You are not suppose to fraternize with infidels, so white or black non-muslims Brits, cant be what you'love' about Britain. Britain is a decadent western country with its hated vices , like prostitution, drinking, violence ect...that cant be what you 'love' about Britain, can it?? Allah hates infidels and their countrys, so you go against Allah if you 'love' Britain...You wouldn't do "that" would you??? Considering the above, I think you are "fibbing" when you say you 'love' Britain...

Forgot to address that last post...
Adept readers probably figured out that I was addressing the post about 'loving Britain', to IA
786. Just got an Allahgasmic nervous twitch in my typing finger The hunt and peck method, failed again...

First they express shock that this bombing happened, and then like the mafia, they are promising more of the same, unless we accede to their demands.

I don't think that we should have been in Iraq, but now that muslims want Britain to leave, I say no, stay there.

But Saddam Hussein, his friends and cronies have not been hurt by sanctions. They have managed to safeguard their privileged lifestyle with the profits of smuggling. And with the mood of the country infected by anti-US feeling, Saddam Hussein's position in power has only been strengthened. While the West has criticised Saddam Hussein for restricting the political and civil rights of the Iraqi people, the embargo has removed their economic and social rights.

It seems to me like we had two choices. Sanctions, or war to remove Saddam. Leaving Saddam in power and free to pursue a renewed WMD program was not an option.

You are on an anti-American bandwagon, ia786, that has the momentum of a freight train. The US and Britain tried to improve the sanctions regime, and they were vetoed at the UN. The reason? They might hurt Russian commercial interests.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,513656,00.html

Many countries were feeding at the trough of Iraqi sanctions, not least the Muslim states, who got cheap bootlegged oil out of the deal.

It's legitimate to criticize the USA, ia786, but all this fomenting about "US imperialism" is based on a warped world view. If terrorists really cared about "justice", they would be bombing a very long list of countries, some of them Muslim. If they really cared about Iraqis, they would not be sabotaging their one shot at democracy and a decent life free from oppression. It's ironic that they lament the destructive effects of UN sanctions on the Iraqi people, and yet now they are doing everything in their power to stop the reconstruction, wreck the economy, undo the people's elected government, and cause a civil war. All in an effort to impose a reactionary theocracy on Iraq that would cripple the country indefinitely.

ia786;

Were you by any chance on the number 26 bus last Thursday wearing a white baseball cap and a grey/green t-shirt with palm trees on it??

Just checking.

Voltaire...It wont be long untill the muslims offer us protection from other muslims, at a price...A veriation of the old 'protection racket',where the protector and the protected 'from', are the same. Give us money and we will protect you from 'them'... Dhimmitude is upon you Sampson...better start knocking down a few Dagon temples...or loose your hair...

He loves Britain!

There was a case here of a rapist who claimed he loved the girl he assaulted. He was not interested to find out first if she shared his feelings.

Our Knight of Taqyiah should ask himself if his feeling for Britain is mutual. If he was honest and had self-respect he would pack and leave. But the guy is a moslem...

Viking5 says,

"If they really cared about Iraqis, they would not be sabotaging their one shot at democracy and a decent life free from oppression."

Their fellow Muslims must not be deceived by the errors of man made laws - democracy.

Indeed, death is the only humane recourse for those Muslims who wish to follow a democratic way of life, one free of Allah's imposed Shariah.

The ultimate objective, if the non-Muslim world really cares, is to enlighten a Muslim's soul to the fact that the Qur'an and its derivative, the Shariah, are also man made.

That I fear, is total blasphemy.

I'd just like to make a general point about debate and argument.

People tend to visit websites that are, to use a fashionable term, within their 'comfort zone'. I've been spending a lot of time lately at a leftist website, outside my comfort zone, debating, and, to some extent making some headway. It's been very difficult, because of the reflexive hostility that alternative viewpoints run up against.

If there is to be any meaningful debate at all, 'outsiders' need to be treated with courtesy and respect, unless they are themselves hostile and aggrssive.

IA 786 is outside his 'comfort zone', but he is well intentioned and by coming to this site, wishes to engage in meaningful debate. He is, of course, wrong about many, many things, but deserves a fair hearing, I'd say.

Don't kick a man when he's down. We are British after all. Except those of us who aren't :-)

"I don't think that we should have been in Iraq, but now that muslims want Britain to leave, I say no, stay there."
-- from a posting by Voltaire above

That attitude can be a trap. It would be terrible to support the continued American waste, by remaining in Iraq, of men's lives, money, materiel, and the continued drain on morale and pressure on the numbers of recruits, and on the equipment, so desert-damaged, and to condemn the United States, because of the failure of its poliymakers to understand the world-wide Jihad, and the best ways to deal with it by undrmining, demoralizing, dividing the Muslim world, rather than trying to bring it "democracy" and domestic tranquillity on the Western model. It would be terrible to keep the best hope of Infidels, the Americans, tied down fin a fruitless mission that if it accomplishes anything, it will only be a Shi'a-dominated state that will be more Islamic, not less, that will continue to pocket American aid and the sacrifice of American soldiers, and will in the end collapse anyway, for the Sunni Arabs, and the Kurds, will simply not give up what the Shi'a will demand of them.

Yes, I know it sounds wrong, crazy even, to withdraw from Iraq if that is what Karen Armstrong, George Galloway, MoveOn.org, and assorted Muslims want. But they want it to be done in a certain way, as a symbol of American defeat and Muslim triumph.

It need not be that way. Carefully done, and accompanied by a series of obviously harsher measures directed at Muslim states and Muslim interests (including war-footing energy policies, and the sacrifices they should entail on civilians who ought to share the burden with the armed forces far more than they are), the withdrawal from Iraq, which will allow the Sh'a militias, the Badr Brigade and the other one (the name escapes me), to deal with the Sunnis in their own special way -- no longer hunting down insurgents, but destroying whole families of those insurgents, and doing all sorts of other things that the Americans would never, could never, even imagine -- with the Sunnis retaliating, and others piling on, with volunteers and men, from outside. The Shi'a will win -- the longest and most important border is that with Iran, established not by the colonial powers but by the 1847 Treaty of Erzrum, between Persia and the Ottoman Empire (a treaty brokered by Russia, incidentally). And when they win, what will that mean?

Let's think ahead. What Muslim country is Islam in bad odor? In what Muslim country are many of the young disgusted with official Islam? That country is Iran. The Islamic Republic cannot last. It can exist, for a while, with its secret police and other means, but it cannot last. And it may be that the weakening of Iranian forces, thrown again into battle with Sunnis from Iraq, will contribute to the final collapse.

Then what? A new Iran, disenchanted with Islam as much as any Muslim country ever has been, will -- if it retains its influence over Shi'a in Iraq, and perhaps even were to integrate the former vilayet of Basra into Iran (possibly as compensation for Kurdish territories in the north lost to a newly independent Kurdistan?), there might be a salutary influence on the Arab-speaking Shi'a of Iraq.

It is not a crazy outcome. It is entirely possible. It makes far more sense than anythhng now being talked about when we prate of "democracy" and the "desire for freedom" and then grow silent on the matter of how that "desire for freedom" and "democracy" will lesson the menace, and appeal, of Islam in Iraq or anywhere else.

For that is what we wish to do. Everything should be directed to that end: to lessen the menace, and the appeal, of Islam. In dar al-Islam, and within dar al-Harb. Demoralizing, dividing, diminishing the revenues, diminishing the numbers behind enemy lines, diminishing the Da'wa aimed at potentially dangerous residents of the Infidel lands. That's it.

That's all we have to do. From now on.

Voltaire, happy to defend to the death your right, etc. But it's what you say above that I object to. Iraq is a mistake getting bigger by the minute. The chance to really disrupt and divide and demoralize, which leaving Iraq offers, will not come again. It would be awful to miss this chance.

Your famous namesake knew about Islam, as his play "Mahomet" reveals. Just visualize that famous exchange about tromperie between the actors Brisart and Lekain, c. 1770. Small wonder that play won't be staged anytime soon in Paris, or en province.

Thank you Interested.

I just want to make some quick points, I discusses this in more detail earlier but was ignored.

1. Extremist preachers in the UK should be banned and deported.

2. Omar Bakri and his ilk should be deported.

3. Imams brought in from outside should know English and should know about British society, they should know about the political system and all that.

4. Extremist organisations such as Hizb Ut tahrir should be banned, they should not be allowed to distribute propaganda outside Mosques, the police have not helped us with this in the past. Things have changed somewhat.

5. Wahabism must be examined more closely, Wahabis are those that cause mischief in our communities, they should face more scrutiny. It is Wahabism that is causing these problems.

6. Saudi Arabia must be held responsible for funding extremist centres in Pakistan and else where, they must also be held accountable for destroying Islamic Historic buildings.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/saudi_mecca_dc

7. Mosques could be monitored in sensitive areas, this could help in showing Non-Muslims the sermons that go on in British Mosques, it would also help discover if any extremist ideas are being taught.

8. Muslim leaders must all condemn Islamic extremism, as Hazrat Ali (ra) said: Extremism is ignorance.

9. Those British Muslims that refuse to integrate and practise Islam peacefully should be deported or arrested.

Many Muslim leaders have spoken against extremism for many, many years, they have been ignored. The time has come to take this threat down. Muslims must be involved.

Interested:

IA 786 is outside his 'comfort zone', but he is well intentioned and by coming to this site, wishes to engage in meaningful debate. He is, of course, wrong about many, many things, but deserves a fair hearing, I'd say.

Go ahead and give him the benefit of the doubt. But all he comes up with is chewing the cud, straight out of Bin Ladens Jihad declaration on the West: "Israel, imagined Injustices, nuking Japan, (as if the Japanese ever asked OBL to speak for them) 'stealing oil'- at $ 60.00 a barrel(!) and a lot of other absurd claims which make any Mohammedan a dangerous infiltraitor, if allowed to reside in an infidel country.

Now this guy calles himself 'a moderate', he is clueless about what 'moderation' is. And even if he was, Islam is not moderate: The call for Jihad, the incitement to kill infidels and Jews is a commandment by Allah and this is the threat we are facing.

I see no solution other than internment & mass-deportations...

IA used the words extreemist or extreemism six out of the nine suggestions made. Possibly IA could define what is meant by extreemism, as in Islamic extreemism or muslim extreemists. Is it extreem to quote or sermonize upon certain Quranic verses? Would you limit Mullas, Imams ect to non-inflamatory parts of the Quran only? And how would you prevent someone from reading verses like 8:12 or 9:5, and more? How would you get rid of extreemism by continually reinforcing the weak minded with it. Oh yea...Wahabism...it's all their fault...(I thought you said it was those White supremist Americans, Brits and Joo's), their source material (Wahabis) is the same as yours...they probably consider you an apostate.
Dont tell a Wahabi you love Britain...

Terminator - I'm not giving IA 786 the benefit of the doubt; I'm putting in a plea that space be made for alternative viewpoints to be put forward and challenged in a debate, rather than shouted down.

If no alternative viewpoints are heard, then a website can become a self-congatulatory echo chamber.

I'm talking, really, about my experience of debating at Harry's Place, a British site. This is one of the few websites I've come across where there reallly is a meaningful exchange of views. It helps if newcomers are made welcome and then politely but firmly challenged.

That's all - no compromise necessary. And just my humble-ish opinion.

Interested... FYI. IA786 is not a newcommer to this site. He has been around plenty long enough to be 'heard' on numerous occasions. His song and dance routines are always basically the same. I do detect a little more hostility than usual...How about that IA...feeling a little hostile today? Just think of how much you love Britain and you will be ok...

"IA used the words extreemist or extreemism six out of the nine suggestions made. Possibly IA could define what is meant by extreemism, as in Islamic extreemism or muslim extreemists. Is it extreem to quote or sermonize upon certain Quranic verses? Would you limit Mullas, Imams ect to non-inflamatory parts of the Quran only? And how would you prevent someone from reading verses like 8:12 or 9:5, and more? How would you get rid of extreemism by continually reinforcing the weak minded with it. Oh yea...Wahabism...it's all their fault...(I thought you said it was those White supremist Americans, Brits and Joo's), their source material (Wahabis) is the same as yours...they probably consider you an apostate.
Dont tell a Wahabi you love Britain..."

I'll make this quick as its very late.

May I add, this is what I call constructive debate, we are discussing solutions here.

There is no room for extremism in Islam. The Quran doesn’t tell Muslims to go and kill unbelievers, these verses are all taken out of context and used by extremists.

In Islam we were told that during the End Times people would use the Quran to justify their actions, we were told to combat them with the hadith.

Hazrat Umar ibn Khattab (radi Allahu anhu) said: "Soon there will come a time when you will be confronted by people who will entangle in controversies with the ambiguous verses of the Holy Quran. Overpower them through Hadith, because those who possess the knowledge of Hadith will be in the position to understand the Quran." (Darimi, Darqutni)

True Muslims follow the interpretation given by the classical scholars. None of these scholars have called for Muslims to act violently, above this, Muslims are commanded to obey the law of the land. If a Muslim doesn't want to do this he has no right to be in England.

"How would you get rid of extreemism by continually reinforcing the weak minded with it."

Confront the extremist philosophy, expose it. Expose how only the weak turn to extremism, how people use extremism as a 'everyone is out to get me' excuse, as an excuse to not think and feel sorry for yourself.

As a British Asian Muslim, I have faced discrimination in my life, this is when it comes to jobs and all that. It is only a few that do things like this, Britain is a great country and I love the people here. I have continued and am university at the moment. One must not allow these 'excuses' to bog them down and draw them to Islamic extremism.

"Oh yea...Wahabism...it's all their fault..."

A lot of it is. I had some Wahabi punks approach my younger brother and tell him that our beliefs are wrong, well my Brother did the right thing and ignored those idiots. They only aim for the young and isolated ones.

"(I thought you said it was those White supremist Americans, Brits and Joo's)"

You are taking my points completely the wrong way.

"their source material (Wahabis) is the same as yours...they probably consider you an apostate."

There source is the same as ours however their ideology is wrong. They have been refuted by the Ahlus-Sunnah, The Prophet Muhammad stated that Muslims must stick to the largest Jammah, that is the Sunnis.

Know the Prophet warned about The Sheikh of Najd, the founder of Wahabism.

http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/muslimarticles/dogs.html

"Dont tell a Wahabi you love Britain..."

I'll tell everyone I love Britain, I have nothing to be ashamed of.

Please read:

Hazrat Imam Sufyaan bin Ainiyyah (alaihir rahmah) said: "Hadith can lead anyone astray except those who are Jurists. The reason being that the Quran is abstract which has become clear and meaningful through the Hadith, while the abstractness of the Hadith is expounded by the Four Juristic Imaams. Thus, if anyone now attempts to extract meanings of the Quran and Hadith without the four Imaams, he will go astray, and he who tries to understand the Quran without Hadith will grope the abyss of ignorance."
Hujjatul Islam further said that there are materialistic atheists who are sowing mischief by refuting Hadith altogether and just verbally making the Holy Quran as the only decision-making authority. In reality, these people are the enemies of Quran and Quran is their enemy. He also identified another group called the Ahle Quran or the people of the Quran who seek all proofs from the Quran alone for their problems, as no narration to them is like the Quran. Both these groups know well that they have no significance in the court of the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam).
O Muslims! Pay no heed to these misguided people. Whenever they try to cast doubt in you through the Quran, dispel your doubts through the Hadith. If they try to undermine your faith in this, seek solutions on the matter provided by the juristic Imaams. The solutions provided by the Imaams will most certainly establish the distinction between truth and falsehood. This will help settle the dust of uncertainty and misguidance through these torrents of Truth. If they try to argue over Hadith, the crystal clear meanings of the Ahadith provided by the Imaams will silence them to such an extent that they either say that they do not know the Hadith or that they do not believe in the Imaams. At this juncture you will know that their Imaam is none other than Iblees, the Cursed, who is leading them astray and preventing them from accepting the Hadith and the decisions of the Imaams. Do keep this in mind at all times because, through the will of Allah, it will protect you at all times from these faithless, misguided sects. (Courtesy: Sunni Razvi Society Int., March '95)

Saladin:

"There is no room for extremism in Islam. The Quran doesn’t tell Muslims to go and kill unbelievers, these verses are all taken out of context and used by extremists."

Crap.

1A, your hatred of Israel and the rest of your 'arguments' all reflect standard Muzzie mindset and brainwash-patterns.

Try to loosen the coffee-filter somewhat, it might help.

But no, I have no hope for you....

Islamic immigration was a mistake. Let’s admit that the 60’s flower power hippie crowd’s experiment of muslim immigration didn’t work. No shame in admitting that. Not every tribe can co-exist with others. Even Ia786 knows it's not working. It’s only best for everyone that all the muslims go back to their homelands right now.

Since muslims arrived, there has been a noticeable loss of joy and happiness amongst the people. Muzzies aren’t happy and vice versa. Whenever you spot a muzzie they always have this black cloud looming about them. They make people feel uneasy and depressed. This will be replaced with resentment and anger. Save everyone the trouble and just leave voluntarily.

IA:There is no room for extremism in Islam. The Quran doesn’t tell Muslims to go and kill unbelievers, these verses are all taken out of context and used by extremists.

Hazrat Umar ibn Khattab (radi Allahu anhu) said: "Soon there will come a time when you will be confronted by people who will entangle in controversies with the ambiguous verses of the Holy Quran.

I'm not going to post the 164 war verses, or numerous others that are often quoted. I will leave that up to someone else. But out of context?...What a lame excuse that is...what context were they taken out of???

Ambiguous verses??? I'm astonished. I did'nt think there were any ambiguous verses in the Quran. Or at least thats what the defenders keep saying...oh I see, jihadists mistake 'real' Quranic verses with 'ambiguous', Quranic verses.
It's some more of that mis-understanding Islam we keep hearing about. Well that makes everything clear doesn't it...There are two Qurans...one the word of Allah for the understanders...and a different one made of ambiguous verses, that are mis-understood, for the jihadist minded. A mind boggler...just how does one mis-understand an abiguous statement???
Only muslims know for sure and they aint telling...

"The Prophet Muhammad stated that Muslims must stick to the largest Jammah, that is the Sunnis".

Didn't the prophet die before there was such a thing as a Sunni? If Abu Bakr had given Fatima an iheritance, there may be no such thing as a Sunni now...Those Hadith are great reading...

"Tony Blair has to come out of his state of denial and listen to what the experts have been saying, that our involvement in Iraq is stupid." His comments were echoed by the marketing manager for The Muslim Weekly newspaper.

The marketing manager said? You mean the jerk off ad salesman for this muslim rag paper. The guy you talk to when you want to place an ad to sell some old pos in the classifieds? What does the marketing manager know about war policy? Don’t listen to any muslim every single one of them is completely fos.

Unfortunately ia786 is right about the Euro and the US Dollar.I have read The Rape of Nanking and my question is how much reparations the Japs have given?None.The Germans have to give Israel millions for a few decades yet.There you go ia I have given you credit for a change(damn near killed me,but you are right about that).All this talk of Western Imperialism is tripe though,muslims invaded the Holy land and the result was the Crusades.Also the Japs got nuked because if the Allies invaded Japan the death toll would have been in the millions and Allied Command couldn't let that happen so in reality this talk of the US using nukes is tripe.As far as the UN embargo on Iraq goes Saddam starved his people while he lived in luxury and we all know about the 'Food for Oil' fiasco from high rollers in the UN.The parades of dead infants was a farce,the corpes were frozen until Saddam thought he had enough to show the world,he also had a few tonnes of depleted uranium so the WMD scenario is correct but the lefties won't tell you that will they?

`There is no room for extremism in Islam. The Quran doesn’t tell Muslims to go and kill unbelievers, these verses are all taken out of context and used by extremists.`

There is no bigger lie than that. The execrable book tells its followers to kill non-muslims. And that is exactly what the followers have been doing.
By that post alone ia786 demonstrates his total lack of knowledge of islam.

THE PROBLEM DEFINED
http://chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=15846

ia wrote: "The Quran doesn’t tell Muslims to go and kill unbelievers, these verses are all taken out of context..."

What ia meant to write was: "Yes, the Quran DOES tell Muslims to go and kill unbelievers, BUT these verses are all taken out of context."

Response:

1) Who is taking the verses "out of context"? Answer: First, the militant Jihadists. Secondly, we here at jihadwatch who are merely reporting and commenting on what the militant Jihadists are doing.

2) What is the "context" those verses should be put into? Answer:

a) Those verses fit into their original context, which is one in which Mohammed and his successors waged offensive battles of imperialistic conquest in order to spread the Earthly power of Islam over non-Muslims in the Ecumene.

b) In this context of an offensive expansion, any non-Muslims who resisted the Muslim Imperialism & Colonialism were re-defined as threats against which every Muslim should "defend" himself.

c) In the minds of the militant Jihadists (and more or less ambivalently in the minds of their millions of supporters), whenever Islam is perceived as being threatened, even when that "threat" is just the world pressuring Muslims to renounce their Sharia where it conflicts with modern Western human rights, or the world pressuring Muslims to stop waging battles against borders, or the world strongly influencing the Muslim world with modern values of sexual freedom -- then Muslims must "defend" Islam from this "threat" either with physical violence or with attempts at manipulating laws & public opinion in the favor of Sharia (or both in tandem with the connection between them denied through taqiyya).

d) Thus: the original context of those violent verses in the Koran are always present -- they are a historical constant, and the only reason why some foolish moderate Muslims think that context is no longer present today is because they have abandoned the original and eternal command to spread Islam and "defend" (with physical violence if need be) Islam from anyone who resists its expansion.

Spot on, metaxi.

I nearly overlooked this one:

"Massoud Shadjareh, chair of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, also called on the Government to take responsibility for creating the "political environment" in which these attacks have happened."

"The Islamic Human Rights Commission"- didn't they tell us a while ago that the concept of "human rights" is against Islam just like Democracy is a Western fallacy? I suppose another little Muzzie trick to use our own inventions against us.

I guess this is all too much for your average Joe to comprehend. But we will prevail, I believe that...

ia786,
the fact that you got many of your ideas from your 'uni'is the second problem.
Your university profs may or may not have been correct, they always think they are.
It is your job, not to accept uncritically ever 'fact' and view presented, but to question them, and continue to question all your life.
Some of the profs who taught me were certifiable, their only credit being that they had questioned the 'accepted' knowns. So, what they say is often bs, it is that they question that is valuable; as you must question what you were taught by them, what you are told by your religion, by your parents etc.
Your first problem is islam. mohommed was not worthy to lead, that is why he needed to use force, murder, wars, deceit and bloodshed, to 'persuade' his own people, the arab tribes, to give him leadership.
mohommed was not worthy; Buddha was, Christ was; take your pick.
I might add that, unlike mohommed, you may read of the ideas, the life, the leadership of Buddha and Christ without requiring the interpretation of four rerligious scholars, a la islam according to one of your quotes.

Metaxy,

"Yes, the Quran DOES tell Muslims to go and kill unbelievers..."

You know it. I know it. Other JW/DW readers/posters know it.

Even ia786, if he's honest, knows it. And it's so flabbergasting to see some of his responses.

The goal here, I think (and as others have also suggested), is to engage him in honest dialogue, and to ultimately clear up any remotely possible misunderstandings that we non-Muslims may have concerning the Qur'an and Islamic teachings. The intent being to make sure that WE'RE not confused about relevant issues.

I asked him a question today, but he either missed or ignored it.

Some of his responses may shed light on that brochure project. Or not.

I suggest that we keep asking him polite, focused, straight forward, fact based questions.

PRCS - "Even ia786, if he's honest, knows it. And it's so flabbergasting to see some of his responses".

We are doing the same thing with Australian Muslims (over on 'Its a matter of opinion' blog). We have two who continue to post the most amazing stuff - the more they say, the more they reveal their mental processes. Neither has ever made a rational response to questions asked about the koran etc, - they try to weasel out by calling us 'racist' etc. And of course, the old 'good Muslim, bad Muslim' claptrap. One (who is actually a lawyer!) keeps telling those who ask awkward questions to 'go back on medication'.

ia786:

If you should need more examples of muslim perfidy please feel free to ask:

Sirhindi (d. 1624) one of Stephen schwartz`s beloved sufis:

Kufr and Islam are opposed to each other. The progress of one is possible only at the expense of the other and co-existence between these two contradictory faiths is unthinkable.

The honor of Islam lies in insulting kufr and kafirs. One who respects kafirs, dishonors the Muslims. To respect them does not merely mean honoring them and assigning them a seat of honor in any assembly, but it also implies keeping company with them or showing considerations to them. They should be kept at an arm’s length like dogs….If some worldly business cannot be performed without them, in that case only a minimum of contact should be established with them but without taking them into confidence. The highest Islamic sentiment asserts that it is better to forego that worldly business and that no relationship should be established with the kafirs.

The real purpose in levying jizya on them (the non-Muslims) is to humiliate them to such an extent that, on account of fear of jizya , they may not be able to dress well and to live in grandeur. They should constantly remain terrified and trembling. It in intended to hold them under contempt and to uphold the honor and might of Islam.

Cow-sacrifice in India is the noblest of Islamic practices. The kafirs may probably agree to pay jizya but they shall never concede to cow-sacrifice.

The execution of the accursed kafir of Gobindwal [a Sikh who lead an uprising against the oppressive Muslim rule of his community] is an important achievement and is the cause of great defeat of the accursed Hindus…Whatever might have been the motive behind the execution, the dishonor of the kafirs is an act of highest grace for the Muslims. Before the execution of the kafirs I had seen in a vision that the Emperor had destroyed the crown of the head of Shirk. Verily he was the chief of the Mushriks and the leader of the kafirs.

Whenever a Jew is killed, it is for the benefit of Islam. [11]
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004940.php

Note: After the killing of Guru Gobind Singh, the Sikhs went on to destroy the muslim Mughal Empire in India, from Kashmir to Afghanistan.
The Koran just couldn`t save the muslims.

1a786
I challenged you day-before-yesterday to tell me what you believed. I assume your statements in this thread constitute your answer.

Frankly, I don't think you are a very good muslim. You do not seem to take the koran seriously enough to embrace all it says. But please understand: That's not meant to be a moral criticism. After all, there are plenty of Christians who don't believe and embrace the entire Bible. The same is true of most religions and their texts, I suppose.

What I find amazing about your faith, is that so many people can, as you claim, "misinterpret" it with the result that we have a GLOBAL phenomenon of violent jihad. And this is not a recent development. It cannot be argued that violent jihad is some new "problem of understanding" that has erupted on the scene. Where have all the WISE MEN been all these years? You know, the ones who understand islam to be non-violent? Why have not the "moderates" been able to restrain them? Are moslems incapable of maintaining discipline in their ranks? Or are you the one who is out of step?

Regardless of your understanding of islam, I can see that you have a very good handle on the concept of American Imperialism.

I always thought that the concept of American Imperialism was imposed through the clever ability of the Soviets (and many western liberals) to capture the nomenclature with a really nice phrase and use it over and over.

Of course, American Imperialism could not have existed when Texas became a state back in 1845. We Texans asked to join, and had to wait. Some other states did, too. When we kicked the colonial Spanish out of the hemisphere in 1898, we either walked away from Cuba or let it slip through our hands, along with the rest of hispanic America, and some islands in the Pacific where we let them form their own governments. We protected the Philippines until the Reagan years, and then left them our military bases. Now their biggest problem is a muslim insurgency.

We entered World War One, and rescued the French for the first time, and then . . . . we left. (The enemy, interestingly, was allied with the muslims in Turkey). I suppose Americans screwed a few women, and drank a lot of wine, and left a literary group over there like Hemingway and his friends. But that's hardly imperialism. Have you read Hemingway? After the Great Depression, we were somehow looking the other way when Germany rose to power AGAIN (you know, that country with with the armies that we helped kick out of France, and which lost her colonies in Africa).

Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia and Poland, then Holland, and Belgium, and France and Russia. Oh, and Greece and Jugoslavia, and Hungary, and Austria, and Libya, and most of the rest of North Africa. And Japan bombed Hawaii, and Midway, and captured Singapore and the Philippines, and most of southeast asia. When we and the Brits (and the commonwealth) beat them (and rescued France for the SECOND time) we somehow managed to establish democratic self-run governments in Germany and Japan, and Italy (which couldn't help but try every conceivable form of socialism for almost forty years). But imperialism? I don't think so.

Then comes what? Viet nam? Ten years, fifty thousand dead. We lost that war, not on the battlefield, but in the news media and on the campuses and streets of America. Yes! That is when we began to hear about American Imperialism. Amerika. Yes, I was there. I saw it happen. So we leave Viet Nam. What happens. Five hundred thousand people try to escape in boats. The boat people. Are you old enough to remember? Many were raped and murdered by Thai pirates? Were the pirates muslim? They are today. Where did the boat people want to go? Canada, some. Hong Kong, others. But mostly America. They had a rough start. Poor. Couldn't speak English. Strange customs. Now they are fully integrated. Very successful. If they have a religion, they don't make a big deal about it. They are good citizens. But we didn't force them here. Same with the Koreans, where we fought the communists to a standstill. We still have troops there. Every time we talk about leaving, most Koreans suggest maybe we should stay a little longer.

Grenada. Panama. Guatamala. Nicaragua. Where is the Imperial Army? The governments have been replaced with democratic ones. Where are the enforcers?

Look at Africa. Do you thing there are Christians in Africa because of American Imperialism? Or, are you now going to change your tune and sing about British Imperialism? The truth might amaze you. The Africans welcomed both the Americans and the British because we brought MEDICINE. We cured their diseases and infections. What did islam do?

You rant about American Imperialism. You have what my parents used to call "a small country attitude." You just can't accept that America is better than anything the moslems have EVER had. Name ONE INVENTION in the moslem world in the last ten years. Fifty years? Hundred Years?

Imperialism? My ass. The moslem world has not contributed anything for a long time because its culture (which is its religion, it's religious laws, its religious dress, its religious education, its religious everything) is backward and smothers creativity. Worse than communism.

Rich muslims drive American cars, British cars, Japanese Cars, German cars. They fly in American planes. Yeah, they can't build one, NOT ONE, but they can steal them and destroy them. Have you seen a muslim camera, microscope, stethoscope, respirator, food processor, tire factory, space capsule, artificial heart, iron lung, replacement hip, movie studio, x-ray machine, gas turbine, disk drive, submarine, helicopter, or television?

Tell me, what does your culture have to offer the world? Why don't you give up your jihad crap and join the REAL JIHAD. Help your people and the WORLD find a cure for cancer, make the blind see and the lame walk. Help us all to be less dependent on oil. Help the world generate economical power from the sun, the wind, the tides, gravity. Help us to recycle our wastes, preserve our forests, our air. Contribute to our art, literature, science, industry. If you do, you can become rich. The world enriches the ones who contribute.

Imperialism? The only imperialism alive in the world today is ISLAM.

ia786 - "Tell me, what is a terrorist? Someone that opposes American Imperialism?!?!?"

No, a terrorist is somebody who deliberately targets unarmed civilians and women and children. A terrorist is someone too gutless to pick up a gun and fight armed men - he/she prefers to murder the unaware and unarmed. Shooting toddlers pointblank in the head is their style.

You neglect to mention Islamic imperialism. What else would you call the constant threats by your co-religionists to make the world into one huge Islamic cesspit? What else would you call the fifth column already in place in the west, hoping to impose your misfit medieval mumbo-jumbo on civilised educated people?

Surely you dont think we believe that millions of people spontaneously converted to Islam, once they realised the marvellous benefits of veiled women, genital mutilation and murderous bigotry.

Answer your question?

This is to the point:

These losers can't dance. No bomba, no shake it, no heart, no soul. They blow themselves up to be cool.

Islam-bombing is a fad for losers who can't get a date.

Fascist Islam appeals to losers who want something more out of life than the mediocre rewards they get from their own personal efforts, which amount to very little due to the confines of Islam, the endless pity-party they attend; and to be somebody, even anybody other than just another Muslim loser, they take on personae as Big-Time Heroes! in their own minds, Martyrs of Allah, rather than small-time dope dealers, clerks at a convenience shop, carwash boys, or whatever. Suddenly, transformingly, the nobody is a big deal in the community. And let's stop pretending that the Muslim community doesn't aprove of the grand gesture of homocide bombing.

The whole rotten lot get to live vicariously as heroes, if only for just one day. The loser culture of Islam cannot compete against the real accomplishments of the Western world. So, to make a name, to make a pose, to make a dent in the world of the living who don't really care about the losers, the losers blow up some people and get celebrated in their Moslem loser communities. Can't get a life? Get a gun. Can't get a date? Then kill someone.
http://nodhimmitude.blogspot.com/

1. Stop all muslim immigration. Those who have migrated should be re-vetted through telling questions e.g. will you die for your country in the event that the enemy were muslims.
Suspicious answers wouls warrant a re-look into the citizensship status.

2. Hit their finances globally.

3. Set up a covert agency to `snuff` all those clerics and leaders who call for death etc. This is the enemy`s front line and has to be removed first. No compunctions, after all they are being done a favor through a speedy jihd.

Immediate names would be Qaradhawi, Omar Bakri, Sudayis. However their fellow moderate muslim brothers should be given the opportunity so rewards can be offered on a `WANTED DEAD` basis.

To DianaC:
Could you please give me the Australian blog that you mentioned above because as an Aussie I would love to get on it.Did you watch 60 Minutes on Sunday night?
To texan:
Brilliant absolutely brilliant.I loved the bit about inventions in the 20th century and to be honest I can't think of ONE thing Arabs have invented in the last century so trolls give examples.Also I wish you were my daughter's lawyer during the Four rape trials we went through because having the info about TRUE islam really would have made a difference and its great that you won't take on muslims as clients.

i dont know why u guys give such importance to IA's comments... remember hes the guy who said India has millions of slaves (lower caste) without ever going to India. Why is it that u bitch constantly about Palestinians and Iraqis. U muslims view the world through a prejudiced prism. U guys magify the suffering of Muslims whilst totally ignore sifferings of infidels. I never understood why in ur definition Kashimiri Pandits dont count as Kashmiris. ia.... there r millions of people in Africa sufferings due to the misdeeds of their Arab masters... i never see u speaking about Sudan,Mauritiana,Somalia etc. U never speak about the Afghan Hindus who (as of 2005) number just 120 down from 30000 just 2 decades ago.U ppl are so concerned with ur ummah, i doubt whether u'd have a brotherly feeling towards an infidel Briton.
==========================================
A joke: A santa claus,an intelligent Liverpool supporter, a patriotic British Moslem and a drunkard are walking down the street when they spot a 50 quid note.. who gets it?

A: The drunkard ofcourse.. becoz other 3 are mythical creatures....

Vikram:

`remember hes the guy who said India has millions of slaves (lower caste) without ever going to India`

Dint know about that one. So now this is what my take is on the guy:

1. He knows nuts about i-slam

2. He is an idiot (i.e. a person from the land of id full of himself)

3. He`s badly brought up and poorly educated but like a good muslim has no wish nor desire to improve himself but live off others.

4. And following (3) he is a parasite.

I believe that ia supports Liverpool FC.

And my team will no doubt be fighting their usual exciting relegation battle again from next month.

DianaC,

Thanks for the link. Interesting site.

BTW. Are Dr. K and his boys the same as those who invaded DT's life?

Oppas: “I believe that you understand how the entire army of Spain cannot resist the force of the Muslims. How then can you resist on this mountain? Listen to my advice. Abandon your efforts and you will enjoy many benefits from the Muslims.”

Pelayo: “Have you not read in Sacred Scripture that the Church of the Lord is like the mustard seed, which, small as it is, grows more than any other through the mercy of God?”

Oppas: “Truly, so it is written.”

Pelayo: “Our hope is in Christ. This little mountain will be the salvation of Spain and of its people. The mercy of Christ will free us from the Muslims.”
- From the “Cronica de Alfonso”, written in the 9th century, the story of Pelayo, who began the war for the reconquest of Spain.

No PRCS they are not the same pigs,but yes the Skaf gangs were muslims.Also found that site DianaC and am going to enlighten a few people about how the courts work always in favour of the defendant.

"1) Who is taking the verses "out of context"? Answer: First, the militant Jihadists. Secondly, we here at jihadwatch who are merely reporting and commenting on what the militant Jihadists are doing"

A few here are also taking every available opportunity to attack peaceful law-abiding moderate Muslims living in the West. A few take use JW to promote hatred, BNP material is distributed, calls for peaceful Muslims to be deported etc.

"2) What is the "context" those verses should be put into? Answer:"

For the __th time, The Scholars are those that give these orders. You have no understanding of the Quran and its context. Read that post I made earlier regarding interpreting the Quran and hadith.

________________________________________________

Even now there are more than a Billion peaceful moderate Muslims that don't follow your version of Islam. You death worshippers probably wish they did as it would make your hatred more justifiable.

"ia786,
the fact that you got many of your ideas from your 'uni'is the second problem.
Your university profs may or may not have been correct, they always think they are."

No, the 'profs' at uni have different views. We are not force fed leftist mumbo jumbo.

"Yes, the Quran DOES tell Muslims to go and kill unbelievers..."

You know it. I know it. Other JW/DW readers/posters know it.

Even ia786, if he's honest, knows it. And it's so flabbergasting to see some of his responses.

_________________________________________________

What if you're right (Which you are not), so what??? Look at the Muslim World, how many 'Muslims' actually go about killing unbelievers????

(You should know that these 'Holy Warriors' kill more Muslims than Non-Muslims)

How many practice Islam peacefully???

The fanaticism in Islam is rejected by more than 1 billion Muslims yet you are blinded by your hatred and lust for blood you death worshipper.

"1a786
I challenged you day-before-yesterday to tell me what you believed. I assume your statements in this thread constitute your answer."

_________________________________________________

Sorry about not being able to reply to your post.

The stuff I have posted here are my opinions on American Imperialism, I have my views. These views are based on fact, F A C T.

I know there are many Problems with the Muslim World, I have not mentioned them in this thread, please this doesn’t mean I am ignoring these problems. Some people here have taken my comments about the 2 faced American politicians the wrong way.

This thread was not about American culture versus the Muslim World. Its not as simple as that.

I have no argument with the people of America, I have nothing against what America stands for. I have nothing against America, I have stated many times that I love many things that come out of America. I just can't stand the politicians and other fat cat white supremacists.

"No, a terrorist is somebody who deliberately targets unarmed civilians and women and children. A terrorist is someone too gutless to pick up a gun and fight armed men - he/she prefers to murder the unaware and unarmed. Shooting toddlers pointblank in the head is their style."

Exactly!!! Spot on.

"remember hes the guy who said India has millions of slaves (lower caste) without ever going to India."

Okay, I've never been to India. I have done some research though.

Lets see how the largest democracy in the World treats the Dalits. (lower caste)

http://www.dalits.org/default.htm

Lets see what the Christians have to say about this, the Christian Dalits.

http://www.dalitchristians.com/

"Why is it that u bitch constantly about Palestinians and Iraqis."

When have I done this.

_________________________________________________

"U ppl are so concerned with ur ummah, i doubt whether u'd have a brotherly feeling towards an infidel Briton."

Why do you make such stupid accusations??? You don't even know me. Just to let you know I have many 'close' Sikh and Hindu friends.

May I add, I have White and Black Christian friends too. Don’t make silly accusations.

"A joke: A santa claus,an intelligent Liverpool supporter, a patriotic British Moslem and a drunkard are walking down the street when they spot a 50 quid note.. who gets it?

A: The drunkard ofcourse.. becoz other 3 are mythical creatures...."

Even though I'm not from up North, I do support Liverpool, you should stop making stupid comments, death worshipper.

"I believe that ia supports Liverpool FC.

And my team will no doubt be fighting their usual exciting relegation battle again from next month."

Hi Ms. Weatherwax,

Let me guess......West Brom, Pompey????

You really had a close shave last season, my heart was pounding like mad and I didn't even support any of those teams that were fighting relegation. Oh I really felt for Iain Dowie (Crystal palace manager) That was really painful.

Even though I'm not from up North, I do support Liverpool

Most Scousers support Everton. And most Mancunians support City.

ia786

1. Extremist preachers in the UK should be banned and deported.

Agree

2. Omar Bakri and his ilk should be deported.

Agree

3. Imams brought in from outside should know English and should know about British society, they should know about the political system and all that.

Know does not mean agree and accept, but then again its a a start

4. Extremist organisations such as Hizb Ut tahrir should be banned, they should not be allowed to distribute propaganda outside Mosques, the police have not helped us with this in the past. Things have changed somewhat.

Agree

5. Wahabism must be examined more closely, Wahabis are those that cause mischief in our communities, they should face more scrutiny. It is Wahabism that is causing these problems.

Agree that it is largely them, but Islam as a whole is under judgement whether you like it or not

6. Saudi Arabia must be held responsible for funding extremist centres in Pakistan and else where, they must also be held accountable for destroying Islamic Historic buildings.

Agree

7. Mosques could be monitored in sensitive areas, this could help in showing Non-Muslims the sermons that go on in British Mosques, it would also help discover if any extremist ideas are being taught.

Agree, however it will drive it underground

8. Muslim leaders must all condemn Islamic extremism, as Hazrat Ali (ra) said: Extremism is ignorance.

What is Muslim extremism, is it following the Quran to the letter.

9. Those British Muslims that refuse to integrate and practise Islam peacefully should be deported or arrested.

Agree

But there are some issues, Islam is fundementally incompatible with Western concepts of Freedom, democracy, individual laws, and laws defined for the people by the people. Which makes my comment on 3. especially important.

I would agree to all that you said, but I am not sure its enough, I am (was) a multi-culturist as I wanted to see the world as one big family of humans, my issue is simple now, the religion of Islam is standing directly in the way of ending war, and the unbalanced levels of wealth etc. and moving to the next stage of human development.

Individual freedoms

"I wanted to see the world as one big family of humans, my issue is simple now, the religion of Islam is standing directly in the way of ending war, and the unbalanced levels of wealth etc. and moving to the next stage of human development."

What a good way of putting it. I think that sums up how a lot of us feel. BTW Giaour over on JW has discovered the BNP and believes it could be our salvation!!!!?????*****!

ia786: What if you're right (Which you are not), so what???
________________________________________

There he goes lying aqain.
Or if he`s telling the truth then, the Koran is a LIE.
Claims to be a mod, has hindu/sikh friends blah blah. I know muslims who probably would use the word `friends` for me too.
But i would trust them most sparingly these days.

ia786:

Here`s what the Head Of The Organization Of Islamic Countries says:

`Dato' Seri Najib kicked the ball first to insist to insist none should openly debate if Muslims could slander the followers of other religions`
AND
`Non-Malays living in the vicinity of mosques in Kuala Lumpur hear this call to arms against the non-Muslims through high-pitches megaphones`
http://mggpillai.com/print.php3?sid=2049

"Most Scousers support Everton. And most Mancunians support City."

Mancunians?? Is that what you call someone from Manchester??

Liverpudlian was new to me, guess you learn something new everyday.

Yeh, you’re right, most of us are just Glory supporters!!!! (sarcasm)

I. Al-Ghazali

The eminent Islamic scholar W.M. Watt stresses Al-Ghazali’s Muslim orthodoxy. He says that Al-Ghazali was “acclaimed in both the East and West as the greatest Muslim after Muhammad, and he is by no means unworthy of that dignity…He brought orthodoxy and mysticism into closer contact…the theologians became more ready to accept the mystics as respectable, while the mystics were more careful to remain within the bounds of orthodoxy.”[1]

Here is Al-Ghazali, evidently with no intention of departing either from Sufism or Muslim orthodoxy, writing about jihad war and the treatment of the vanquished non-Muslim dhimmi peoples:

[O]ne must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year...one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them...If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked…One may cut down their trees...One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide...they may steal as much food as they need...

Read it all
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004940.php

"3. Imams brought in from outside should know English and should know about British society, they should know about the political system and all that.

Know does not mean agree and accept, but then again its a a start"

If they don't agree or accept, they shouldn't be here. In our Mosques Urdu and other foreign languages are spoken, there are very few sermons in English. I consider English to be my first language. Now many young Muslims are attracted to extremist groups simply because they preach in English, its seen as being more relevant.

In our Mosques wider issues and events are never really discussed. It is all based on Islam and spirituality, I do like this as it helps me concentrate on God, however the sad case is that wider issues need to be addressed. The Prophet wanted Mosques to play large roles, not just for worshipping. Now with events taking place across the World, the war on terror, many Muslims feel isolated, our Imams don't discuss this. It is the extremists that take advantage of this, they discuss these things, in English with a radical ignorant twist. That is why some youth turn to them.

This is something you won't understand but most youth reject them because of their blasphemous beliefs. They reject Awliyah, they reject spirituality, they attack the status of the Prophet Muhammad. They say the Prophets of God are like ordinary men, which they are not. There beliefs go against our core teachings. Above this they are idiots that wish to cause problems for all Muslims in the UK.

"5. Wahabism must be examined more closely, Wahabis are those that cause mischief in our communities, they should face more scrutiny. It is Wahabism that is causing these problems.

Agree that it is largely them, but Islam as a whole is under judgement whether you like it or not"

Agreed.

Oh and here`s swomething ia786 might want to tell is a lie to his sikh friends:

`It is said that in order to bring the children to submission to Islam, they were made to enter, next day, through a very small door while the Quran was displayed on the other side. The idea was that as the children would enter the door with their heads down, they would then be told that they had bowed to the holy Quran and thereby to Islam. When the children saw that trap, the seven years old Sahibzada Fateh Singh threw his feet first instead of his head while entering through the small door. Throwing the feet towards the Quran meant an insult to Islam. Wazir Khan, therefore, could not conquer the nine and seven years old children of Guru Gobind Singh. When every effort failed to convert the children to Islam, it was finally ordered that they should be bricked alive in the wall.
A wall was, therefore, built step by step on their tender limbs until it came up to the shoulders of Sahibzada Fateh Singh. The executioner advanced with his sword, and asked whose head he should chop off first? Upon this Sahibzada Fateh Singh said," Listen O executioner, since the wall has reached my shoulders first, therefore cut off my head first." Sahibzada Zorawar Singh exhorted,"No, you cannot cut off his head till you do mine, because I am the eldest and therefore, I have the right to go first. Cut off my head first." Hearing such a strange debate, the wholeassembly of Wazir Khan's court was stunned. The small children were ridiculing the angel of death. The chronicler states that Sahibzada Fateh Singh's head was cut off first.`
http://allaboutsikhs.com/gurus/gurugobind7.htm#1

I`m sure ia786`s Sikh friends will be able to laugh over the joke (after all it is a lie).

Daffersd,

"I would agree to all that you said, but I am not sure its enough"

And it will never be enough.

To "agree with what he said" is irrelevant as long as that is not what you think he means. Therefore it can never be enough.

You use two different languages: you speak English and he speaks Taqyian.

He simply does his part of the jihad, which is lying to the infidel.

"7. Mosques could be monitored in sensitive areas, this could help in showing Non-Muslims the sermons that go on in British Mosques, it would also help discover if any extremist ideas are being taught.

Agree, however it will drive it underground"

Good point.

This is where the Muslim communities would be responsible for rooting out these criminals. It would be our responsibility to help authorities in dealing with these people that wish to brainwash younger kids and harm the UK.

You heard about the Saviour (Deviant) sect, this is some new hot of the press group. I can't find their website, well they had this article, it said that British Muslims are not really Muslims. You really don't know how angry these punks make us mainstream Muslims. They make our blood boil. There were cases of Al-Muhajiroun punks being beaten up by Muslims as they were causing problems. I will admit I have felt like getting some boys together and paying them a visit, no one else really wishes to do anything. (Police etc.)

That is the wrong way to go about it though. Violence is not the answer.

Over at jihadwatch there`s this:

`British Muslim leader denies that mosques have a duty to moderate the views of jihadists`

Right.Great stuff. We are more right than wrong.

"8. Muslim leaders must all condemn Islamic extremism, as Hazrat Ali (ra) said: Extremism is ignorance.

What is Muslim extremism, is it following the Quran to the letter."

Extremism is ignoring the classical interpretation of the Quran. Extremism is ignorance.

Please read.

Hazrat Umar ibn Khattab (radi Allahu anhu) said: "Soon there will come a time when you will be confronted by people who will entangle in controversies with the ambiguous verses of the Holy Quran. Overpower them through Hadith, because those who possess the knowledge of Hadith will be in the position to understand the Quran." (Darimi, Darqutni)

Hazrat Imam Sufyaan bin Ainiyyah (alaihir rahmah) said: "Hadith can lead anyone astray except those who are Jurists. The reason being that the Quran is abstract which has become clear and meaningful through the Hadith, while the abstractness of the Hadith is expounded by the Four Juristic Imaams. Thus, if anyone now attempts to extract meanings of the Quran and Hadith without the four Imaams, he will go astray, and he who tries to understand the Quran without Hadith will grope the abyss of ignorance."

Hujjatul Islam further said that there are materialistic atheists who are sowing mischief by refuting Hadith altogether and just verbally making the Holy Quran as the only decision-making authority. In reality, these people are the enemies of Quran and Quran is their enemy. He also identified another group called the Ahle Quran or the people of the Quran who seek all proofs from the Quran alone for their problems, as no narration to them is like the Quran. Both these groups know well that they have no significance in the court of the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam).

O Muslims! Pay no heed to these misguided people. Whenever they try to cast doubt in you through the Quran, dispel your doubts through the Hadith. If they try to undermine your faith in this, seek solutions on the matter provided by the juristic Imaams. The solutions provided by the Imaams will most certainly establish the distinction between truth and falsehood. This will help settle the dust of uncertainty and misguidance through these torrents of Truth. If they try to argue over Hadith, the crystal clear meanings of the Ahadith provided by the Imaams will silence them to such an extent that they either say that they do not know the Hadith or that they do not believe in the Imaams. At this juncture you will know that their Imaam is none other than Iblees, the Cursed, who is leading them astray and preventing them from accepting the Hadith and the decisions of the Imaams. Do keep this in mind at all times because, through the will of Allah, it will protect you at all times from these faithless, misguided sects. (Courtesy: Sunni Razvi Society Int., March '95)

"`British Muslim leader denies that mosques have a duty to moderate the views of jihadists`

Right.Great stuff. We are more right than wrong."

Why do you act so selfishly?? why don't you want to fix the situation at hand, all you are doing at the moment is twisting things in order to fulfil your twisted and evil agenda.

The Muslim Council are working to help Britain, what the hell are you doing??? Throwing more fuel onto the fire?!?!?

"But there are some issues, Islam is fundementally incompatible with Western concepts of Freedom, democracy, individual laws, and laws defined for the people by the people. Which makes my comment on 3. especially important."

Maybe in your opinion, however that is irrelevant to the issues at hand. The Muslims in the UK have to abide by the laws of the land, if they don't wish to they shouldn’t be here. Democracy, freedom and individual laws, of course Muslims have to respect those. My Sheikh stated that you are free to leave, if you don’t like the way of life here, leave, don’t cause trouble for other people here. Don’t make a fuss.

It is the fundamentalists that oppose all that. They even opposed voting in the elections, we should look to the Muslim leaders when it comes to these issues. These leaders have told us what our duties our, we have to be law-abiding, peaceful Muslims.

Why would a person such IA786 choose to continue to live in infidel territory?

No muslim person has ever been able give me straight answer to this question."

________________________________________________

I love Britain.

=================================================

Maybe... but you certainly seem to hate the British...

Dearest Vikrant_Camberleykar

I take great sadness in your earlier comments.

Liverpool fans are known through out the world as the most Knowledgeable and are respected around the globe.

Retract those remarks as you are insulting the great Ummah of Kopites worldwide :)

Good debate by the way...Long live America/Britain/Israel and the free world!

ps We've only won it 5 times

"A joke: A santa claus,an intelligent Liverpool supporter, a patriotic British Moslem and a drunkard are walking down the street when they spot a 50 quid note.. who gets it?

A: The drunkard ofcourse.. becoz other 3 are mythical creatures...."

Even though I'm not from up North, I do support Liverpool, you should stop making stupid comments, death worshipper.

=================================================

If we in the infidel West truly "worshipped death," then our response to 9/11 would have been much briefer and far more to the point. The fact of the matter is is that we in the West have restrained ourselves, perhaps too much.

I would point out that the United States' first introduction to Islam was the Barbary pirates, run by a collection of tin-pot dictators who made their living in kidnapping, extortion and slaving. Nearly two centuries of "progress" and where are we -- we have Muslim "leaders" threating the leaders of Canada and Great Britain, saying that "they cannot be held responsible should they (the western nations) not give way and yield to the Muslim's desires, saying they cannot control their "younger generation." Meanwhile, you spin conspiracy theories and flights of fancy to make up for you and your co-religionists inability to deal with a small Mediterranean nation whom you cannot defeat even with coward's odds.

ia786,

Maybe so, but what you have is a huge difference between interpretation, so you get to Robert Spencers view which is that the Islamic world needs to purge Jihad from its system. Not just say it, or pretend to say it, or pretend to do it, but do it.

Do you know what my test is for the Islamic world, the end of the enslaught on Israel and the Jewish people..., that is the litmus test is it not, and it does not mean temporary cessation of attacks, but total acceptance and recognition of the right of Israel to exit by all such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad etc.

Daffersd:

"purge Jihad from the system"- that doesn't work. Nothing but internment and mass-deportations work. We, the people of the West made a huge mistake in allowing Mohammedan infiltration. Now it is time to reverse it. Sooner the better.

Nothing else will do...

The Muslim poster above who makes clear, from the quotations he adduces, the importance of the Sunnah (Hadith and Sira) in the interpretation of the Qur'an (though those Hadith, and the details of that Sira, are very likely simply tales woven out of the Qur'an itself), unwittingly shows exactly what needs to be shown:

That so-called "reformers" of Islam, or those who pretend that Islam can be reformed, and who suggest that somehow one can dispense with the Hadith (they are entirely silent about the Sira), and even like to belittle Infidels who suggest that the Hadith are important, are wrong -- as the quotations above so amply demonstrate.

When someone such as the self-described Turkish "moderate" Mustafa Akyol, who keeps being pummeled whenever he comes up against Infidels who know something about Islam (though he remains convinced that it is he who scores one KO after another), alludes to the need to get rid of or ignore the Hadith, and to concentrate on the Qur'an, "sola scriptura" (and any hint by Akyol or others of the Protestant Reformation is entirely non-accidntal), and then others tell him he is crazy, that the Sunnah is essential for most Muslims, he pretends otherwise.

But what the Muslim poster has provided is more evidence for the signifance of the Sunnah.

In his confused desire to defend Islam, out of filial piety and an inability to admit various truths, he may not know what he is doing.

Perfectly understandable.

"In his confused desire to defend Islam, out of filial piety and an inability to admit various truths, he may not know what he is doing."

Perhaps -- but note the way he projects Islam's flaws and dastardly agenda onto its victims...

The "white racists" in Washington are bent on world domination, not Muslims...

The posters here are the "death cult" adherents, not the Muslims who are murdering and committing suicide and celebrating death....

The reform needs to happen in Western policies towards Muslims, not among Islamic supremacist bigoted views towards non-Muslims...

These and other projections are the most worrisome... While at times ia786 appears to admit deep Muslim flaws -- nevertheless flashes of his acidic anti-Americanism, his anti-white racism, his anti-Semitism, and his post facto justications for Islamic terrorism keep popping up again and again... Pretexts all, and obfuscations of the first order...

It would be nice to think these are unwitting, but the truth is, it doesn't matter -- Whether terrorism is caused by the dysfunctionality of Muslims or the fiendish aspirations of Muslims, BOTH attitudes result in the unlikelihood that Islam can reform, or that we will ever see the end to their abominable terrorist supremacist predations on the rest of us...

It looks grim for us and them, but we will prevail. Sadly this may require us to act in ways that are quite ruthless in response to their unwitting or devious furtherance of terrorism and intolerance.... Either way, the terrorism and fascism of Islam MUST BE STOPPED for the sake of humanity...

I think ia786 helps to demonstrate that rational dialogue is impossible with self-defined "moderate" Muslims. (I hope someday to be proven wrong.)

Having a dialogue with ia786 is as interminable and fruitless as having a dialogue with Noam Chomsky -- I continue to be fascinated in a nauseous sort of way with how Chomsky's snake-like & slippery argumentation resembles that of so many so-called "moderate" Muslims.

The only good that comes of debating ia786 and his type is that it sharpens our pens-that-are-mightier-than-swords.

I espouse the Charles Martel approach at the Battle of Tours in 732 a.d.

Crush Islamic Fundalmentalism!

Il Toscano

Change foreign policy. Oh, and while you're at it, change your domestic policy too, to accommodate what Muslims think is right and proper. Now let's see: foreign policy, domestic policy. Have we forgotten anything?

Change foreign policy. Oh, and while you're at it, change your domestic policy too, to accommodate what Muslims think is right and proper. Now let's see: foreign policy, domestic policy. Have we forgotten anything?

--------------------------------------------------

Not policy-wise, but no doubt they will want to change the maps to erase Israel, eliminate the Anglican Church, turn Westminster Abbey into a mosque and dump the Queen and Parliment for Hamza the Hook as Caliph, with Galloway as the court-jester.

The western world has started to really wake up.

America awakes
Britain is starting to get out of Bed.
Australia already has the coffee going.

Too bad Europe is still fast alseep thinking all is well.

We have a word for the muslims and terrorists.

In the words of that famous religious scholar
"Eat my Shorts"

ia786:

Why do you act so selfishly?? why don't you want to fix the situation at hand, all you are doing at the moment is twisting things in order to fulfil your twisted and evil agenda.

The Muslim Council are working to help Britain, what the hell are you doing??? Throwing more fuel onto the fire?!?!?

_____________________________________________

As one from a community that puts a lot of store by fire, you should be a pro at it. But then islam does teach you to be selfish and vicious.

Unfortunately, your ego does not permit you to see yourself for the lying, hypocrite you are with scant knowledge of your own religion. This i can account for on the brain-washing you go through. Also a luxury of the `beleivers`.

Go put out the fire in your ummah, then only would you be fit to speak of peace. If not you are not fit to polish my shoes.