US considering Pakistan’s proposals to end terrorism and poverty: Noorani

I don't disagree with you, Robert, but you're ranting again. Pakistan is a bastard state, held together by a military elite ruling over East Afganistan -- i.e., a warlordist society made up of Atilla-the-Hun-type barbarians.

Loxias:

Ranting?

Again?

Everything I said above is true, and bears repeating. I am going to keep "ranting" until the message has been delivered. It hasn't been yet.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Was reading an interesting post by Joe Katzman at the 'Winds of change' blog where he makes the point that

...Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy' till you find a large enough rock ...

To some extent I can understand why the saner folks at State keep saying nice doggy to Saudi (oil flows and $$trillions invested in US assets) and to Pakistan (unstable, nuclearized & proliferation-prone)....

But the question remains - what the "large enough rocks" we're waiting for. (Its like waiting for Godot, in some sense...)

Two of the things Loxias is missing is tact and diplomacy...ranting??? Robert dont "rant".

" The United States has started considering Pakistan’s proposals to alleviate poverty and curb terrorism in Pakistan?"

The US cant alleviate poverty inside it's own borders, but will attempt to end Pakistans?
And someone thinks enriching Pakistan will curb terrorism? What a joke...sounds like a very "liberal" plan. Uninformed, unrealistic and
unworkable...Are these US officials drunk, on drugs, or just stupid???

Wow... Spencer posted an article, and it took almost an entire hour for some LGF Overflow GOPmonkey to whine about liberalism.

Yes, Dub Swami "the liberals" that run this country sure are foolish to think that they can appease jihadi terror, aren't they? Senator Wellstone, Senator Schroeder, and Rep. Tip O'Neill are making a terrible mess out of everything! And President Gore (or if you prefer, "Kerry")--don't even get me started!

Yep, whenever anything bad happens in America, it's always the liberals fault. And whenever anything bad happens in a Muslim nation, their cult leaders tell their people that--well, it's all the liberal's fault too.

Same problem, different place. Always blame the liberals, even when they haven't controlled the government in years.

Duh, do you actually understand which party controls the Senate, the House, and the Whitehouse? Do you?

Well, maybe you do, but like Rush and O'Reilly have brainwashed you, every time Dub gives a little monica to Islam, he does it because, (ahem) "If he told it like it is the PCers and the libs would whine to high heaven!"

Yes, the LIBERALS make Bush say "Islam is great, Islam is good, let us thank them for our crude. By their hands we all are bled, and purty soon we'll all be dead."

The LIBERALS made Bush give the Taliban 43 Million (taxpayer) dollars in April, 2001 to destroy it's opium crop. Because you KNOW how the liberals despise drugs.

The liberals... the liberals... the liberals... oh, the inhumanity.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to working on my "Dean Scream" and my plans to "provide therapy to the terrorists and get them to talk about their feelings" like President Rove says I do.

The U.S. is making a big mistake in even considering the Pakistani proposal. This is a blackmail attempt, no less. North Korea has its nuke and wants money, Muslims have their jihad and their leaders want money, too. No difference between the two. Furthermore, as Spencer comments, the causes of jihad are not poverty or ignorance. Some of the deadliest jihadists were students, and supporters of jihad are professors, doctors and other professionals, here and abroad. So why bet on a sure loser?

I'm sick and tired of this president behaving like a king. The Congress is more important than the presidency, as evident in our constitution, and I hope (in vain...) that Bush will give deference to the Congress on this matter (because we know the House will never approve this), instead of shelling out billions of dollars we don't have to these liars and supporters of jihad.

Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson argued unsuccessfully to end the practice of paying protection racket extortion to the governments of Algiers, Tunis, Morocco and Tripoli. In exchange for these payments to "buy the peace", these governments would temporarily agree (it was always temporary) to cease their depredations on civilian American merchant vessels engaged in trade with Mediterranean nations. Congress was unwilling to raise the money to fund a standing navy and instead opted for the payment of what is in essence, jizyah (جزْية). All of that changed in 1801 when Jefferson was president. Instead of extortion payments, he dispatched the new United States Navy and Marine Corps. It took nearly 15 years but eventually the Barbary states got the message and after a nearly continuous 300-year run, the cycle of Barbary state sponsored jihad violence came to an end.

Pakistan knows that the violence they experience is inspired by the Islamic canonical doctrine of jihad conquest and has no relation to any form of poverty except that of the mind and culture. Any aid to Pakistan will be nothing more than the equivalent of the extortion paid to the Barbary states prior to the arrival of the United States Marines. Instead of financial aid, I propose the proven and time-tested Jefferson solution: inform the Pakistanis that the United States will instead use the funds to deploy more firepower in the local theater of operations. I also recommend that an engagement policy for the American forces in Afghanistan be officially expanded to include a "hot pursuit" component into the boder region of Pakistan.

Carrots never work with these guys. President Jefferson knew that. President Adams eventually learned that. President Bush is now learning that. It is time for more and bigger sticks. Let the jihad enemy know that the United States is capable of scaling this thing way, way up. Put the burden on the enemy to decide when he has suffered enough. The cost to the American taxpayer is no less abhorent but at least the stick has proven to be more effective in the long run.

Even in Adam's time when the United States was paying the extortions to the Barbary despots, the public dialogue was never about morality, but merely a question of economic efficiency. It is far past time to return to our roots and take the hard earned lessons of our ancestors to heart. Too many of our fellow citizens have paid the ultimate price for our freedom since our first encounter with the jihad inspired bandits over two hundred years ago, for us to willfully ignore our own history with these people. Pakistan doesn't need more madrassas, they need more US Special Ops.

Islam is not interested in ending poverty. Impoverished and ignorant Muslims are more easily manipulated and controlled. Islam is interest in triumphalism and acquiring the goods and human capital that will set them up as overlords. Terrorism and poverty are tools, means to that end.

Jizya by any other name. The foolish State dept with their foolish dhimmi leader Rice. Still clueless in Wash, DC.

If the G8 summit brings about the cancellation of African debt, campaigners' focus and pressure will probably be turned to doing likewise for Asian countries.

The main drop-the-debt group, Jubilee Debt Campaign, back in 1996 as Jubilee 2000 only classified Pakistan and Bangladesh as moderately indebted, though they did consider Afghanistan to be severly indebted.

Jubilee's own figures put Bangladesh's UK debt at £1.3 million in 1997, with what looks like a massive jump in total external debt to $16.5 billion in 1998.

Since then Jubilee they have teamed up with Islamic Relief and are now including Pakistan and Bangladesh amongst their campaigns.

A South African girl I spoke with said that since drop-the-debt campaigns started, Mbeki borrowed massively, believing that his extra debts would be wiped out. It could be that Bangladesh and other countries have been the same.

Jubilee are being backed up by Noreena Hertz, the authoress of 'Silent Takeover' who is arguing that debts in Pakistan are fueling extremist organisations.

It could well be that Pakistan and Bangladesh have deliberated got themselves into massive debt, Pakistan largely through its nuclear programme, anticipating that the West will pay these off debts, hence in effect exacting a form of jizya.

Kj...I'm not a liberal or a conservative...I just calls em as I see's em...if that grates on your sensibilities, you need to thicken your skin a little...Maybe we should put Sen Boxer in charge of the war on terror and see how that goes...

Pakistan has plenty of money for nukes.

That's enough.

Let then eat plutonium. (To paraphrase M. Antoinette.)

It gives you that glowing feeling.

Bigsleep..."I've got that glowing feeling, ooh ahh, that glowing feeling, I've got that glowing feeling, now I'm gone, gone, gone"...

Someone sang a song like that, but I cant remember who it was. Maybe we can make that the Pakistani national Anthem...Iran also....

For decades Pakistan has been the spoiled child of American diplomacy. Infuriated by Krishna Menon, and what was seen as Bandung-conferencing Indian diplomats (who often did deserve our scorn), the Americans made the mistake of thinking that "Islam is a bulwark against Communism" and that was all they knew, and all they needed to know, about Islam. And besides, those mustachioed Pakistani generals, ramrod-straight backs, seemingly straightforward in speech, were such splendid fellows -- you know, the same impression that Musharraf, the meretricious Musharraf, gives. We just can't quite comprehend how deeply dyed by a culture of nonsense and lies, taqiyya that comes with mother's milk, so that even those who seem, to
Westerners, most full of rectitute are offering up some version (from mild to hot and spicy) of their refusal to come clean with the Infidels about Islam, and what it inculcates, and how it shapes the attitudes, pervades the atmosphere, is instinct in everything, that we find in Muslim societies such as Pakistan.

Pakistan is a particularly grim place because it has Islam and nothing but Islam. It is a country whose people define themselves solely by Islam. If, in Malaysia, or in Indonesia, one can find communites of non-Muslims, and some awareness of a pre-Islamic or non-Islamic world, that helps to introduce a slight syncretistic note. Pakistan is full of people who have Arab names, and many of them seem to think they are descendants of the Prophet or his tribe or of other 7th century Arabs -- all those Sayeeds -- and the results are there for all to see.

For decades Pakistan received great amounts of American military aid. There was money, training, equipment including top-of-the-line planes. During the war in Afghanistan, Pakistan was both the conduit, and recipient, for a great deal more aid, and helped to establish the view that the Soviet Union was the sole problem, and nice Mr. Bin Laden and his friends and family was part of the "solution." And meanwhile, the Pakistani ISI (a wholly-owned subsidiary of those same rectitudinous generals) was doing all kinds of things. It was funding, and encouraging, and rewarding, Dr. A. Q. Khan, who worked busily aday, stealing nuclear secrets here, getting equipment there, and who has endangered the United States more than anyone else, including Bin Laden. And it was allowing those madrassa students who metastasized quite naturally into the murderous Taliban, to grow and grow and grow.

And what has happened since 9/11? It's the mixture as before. Pakistan is "our friend" and "our ally." Pakistani debts have been cancelled. Pakistani goods are now flowing into the United States, while Americna military equipment flows -- free of charge -- into the hands of the splendid, trustworthy, mustachioed General Musharraf and his splendid fellows, each more trustworthy, more mustachioed, and more "moderately" Muslm than the last.

That is our policy. It is based on not being suspicious of Islam, wary of Islam, understanding of Islam, able to recognize that every Muslim who does not come clean about Islam is himself part of that unending problem. Musharraf is not our friend, and can never be. Pakistan is not our friend, and can never be.

The disgusting way in which Arabs and Muslims have been allowed, by the Western world, not to rely on the fabulous riches being acquired by other Arabs and Muslims, but on Western aid, aid for which we get nothing, aid which becomes a matter of entitlement and which we become afraid to cut, aid which goes to such countries as Egypt which has violated every solemn commitment of the Camp David Accords (the aid was originally given to shore up Anwar "Prince of Peace" Sadat, who pocked the Sinai but did not live to fully break the treaty with Israel -- that was dutifully carried out by his thuggish, thick-necked successor, the stratokleptocrat Mubarak), and which, furthermore, has the most viciously anti-American press, and population, possibly in the world (always excepting, of course, the unsurpassabble "Palestinian" Arabs -- the shock troops of one of the local Jihads).

Sixty billion dollars later, Egypt is even more ill-disposed towards us than it was, as a natural outcome of its Muslim faith, before.

And Pakistan? After CENTO, after the billiions in aid and diplomatic support over the years, after the exchanges of our officers, after the opening up of our markets, after the cancellation of debts, after the bribe after bribe to get the Pakistanis to collaborate -- oh, as they do, carefully calibrating the exact amount of highly-visible "collaboration" they will offer, never to really damage their friends, but just enough to keep the Americans happy.

And now, we are told, we -- why we? why not Saudi Arabia, or the U.A.E., or Kuwait, with their tiny populations and their vast unearned revenues from oil, which have been spectacularly rising? -- must give them more aid, and end "poverty" and if "poverty" is ended, the Jihad -- no, I mean the "terror" will end. Just the way it has in rich Saudi Arabia, rich Iran, rich U.A.E., rich... well, all those places where there is so much oil wealth, and therefore no poverty, and therefore -- no "terror" or support of "terror" anywhere in the world.

Not everyone in the State Department is a fool. Not everyone in the government, or in the press, on right and left, is a fool. But a great many people are.

The Revolution started with the phrase "No taxation without representation." Perhaps not a stirring phrase, but it stirs me.

Now we are being taxed, against our wills, to pay jizya to various Muslim states. Not all of them ask it of us alone. Libya, for example, has told Italy that it will only collaborate on the problem of illegal immigration into Italy from boats leaving Libyan shores if the Italian government agrees to build, at its own expense, a coastal highway that runs along the whole length of LIbya's coast. So far Italy has rejected this absurd suggestion.

And the American government, if it has its wits about it, will reject this transparent and disgusting attempt to do two things: to extract even more aid out of us, and to continue to insist, against all the evidence, and to the great harm of Infidels who continue to be misled, that "poverty" is the problem.

Well, here's a motto for today:

"No To The Jizyah-Tax -- We May Be Infidels But We Are Not Dhimmis"

It is a bit of a mouthful for a bumpersticker, but perhaps our bumpers can make a little room, and tuck that sentiment on, or into, their Procrustean metallic bed.

Gemme a break!

There's a sucker born every minute, funny how so many people are willing to swallow that crap that only if we ended poverty in Muslim countries, which isn't our fault, all those poor people like Osama would be our pals.

Islamic countries are poor because Islam has made them poor. It's not our job to allieve them of their poverty. All this aid and oil money only enriched the corrupt ruling class of Islamic countries, they funnel away the discontent that might get them overthrown by pointing to America and Israel and screaming and like and obediant attack, dog Muslims bite the hand that feeds them, unfourtunately the owner of the hand is too stupid to pull away.

"allieve them of their poverty"
--- from a posting above

A backwards formation, that perhaps should be considered as a serendipitous example of accidental lexicogeny. "Allieve" someone of his poverty" includes "alleviate" and "relieve" and also the pharmaceutical "Aleve." Not bad.

From the top without reading much further down:

Two of the things Loxias is missing is tact
and diplomacy...ranting??? Robert dont "rant".

"The United States has started considering Pakistan’s proposals to alleviate poverty and curb terrorism in Pakistan?"

The US cant alleviate poverty inside it's own borders, but will attempt to end Pakistans?

Robert can rant like I can rant.

As for tact and diplomacy, I sometimes have the tact of a Jesuit and the hide a rhinoceros, and on other times, the tact of a rhinoceros and the hide of a Jesuit.

Again quoting from the top, RS says,

Easily! After almost four years of promises from Musharraf that he would soon eliminate the terrorists, or had already, now it all depends on US aid. And over at State the learned experts are taking this seriously.

This is a rant, i.e., a sarcasm-toned polemic. Robert rants like I rant. I also do irony (subtle humor that puts down the question in question) and sardonism (basically, bitterly humor-free irony). Sarcasm is mere flaming.

I largely agree with Hugh's rant
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/006890.php#c104703
.

As I said earlier, Pakistan is a bastard state put together by imperial-era British bureaucrats, as is Iraq and Syria-Lebanon and Palestine-trans-Jordan (now Israel, Jordan and the still stillborn state of Palestine).

Nuking Pakistan would make Pakistan East Afganistan, with lots and lots of maniacal bandits trying to test the borders. The eastern Paki border is what the Brits attempted in order to maintain the Raj; it's approximately defensible, but only after condidering how primitive the people living there are.

Waziristan is as backward as the hither-most New Guinea tribes are. And it was only not too long ago that the Nuristani/Waziristani languages were elevated to co-equal status with the Indo-Iranian subgroup of the Indo-European family of languages: yeah, proto-Iranian, proto-Indic and effin Proto-Nuristani, all descended from proto-
Indo-Iranian, somewhere up on the Ural River valley somewhat before 2000 BC, all being first-level divisions of the Indo-European family of languages.

Osama is dealing with us Indo-Europeans.