Another wakeup call for those who think that the Gaza pullout will usher in Peace In Our Time. From the Jerusalem Post (thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist), a report on Sami Al-Arian's old buddy Ramadan Shallah:
Islamic Jihad leader Ramadan Shalah announced that his organization would continue launching terrorist attacks against Israel even after the upcoming withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.When asked whether Gaza operatives would continue firing Kassam rockets and mortar shells at Israeli communities, Shalah replied that this depends on a number of factors, including Palestinian efforts to maintain national unity.
another open and honest statement of intent. there is no shortage, coming from every corner of the planet, of individuals clearly stating their intent to wage war against non-muslims, with a primary objective being the murder of all jews on the way to world domination. over and over again they willingly and proudly admit to what they wish to do, are doing, will do.
now if we could just find some CONCRETE evidence to show to Western leaders, maybe then.....
This pullout is a disaster. The Israelis had years ago left the areas (which Israel had a better claim to than Italy did to the Alto Adige in 1919, when it took it from Austria, and at least as good a claim as all those European countries that refashioned their borders at the expense of the losers after World War II). That claim was based on the League of Nations' Mandate for Palestine, on the rules that have always and everywhere governed territorial settlements after wars of defense, and on Resoluton 242 itself, which requires the establishment of "secure and defensible borders."
Sharon, stubborn and stupid and keeping his own counsel, refusing a referendum, could think only of how to stave off what he perceived as "inevitable" diplomatic pressure from the "Four Parties" concerned with pushihng that absurd "Two-State Solution." So he would stave off the pressure by proleptic surrender. He had no idea that just possibly things might happen to weaken the E.U. (such as the votes in France and Holland), or even possibly dampen th eenthusiasm of the E.U. and Russia for promoting the Muslim agenda (such as the terrorism in Madrid, London, Amsterdam, Beslan). His mind was made up, and he paid no attention to these developments. They were too quick, too close to the end, for him to take them in. He is not smart enough, not cunning enough (in this respect he reminds one of certain "leaders" closer to home). One doubts that Ariel Sharon has ever understood Islam, that he has ever heard the word "dhimmi," or that he has ever bothered to read the canonical texts. For him, it is "Arabs" who hate "Jews." He is from an older generation, one so fixated on simply settling the millions of refugees, fighting off the Arabs, trying desperately to keep the tiny country from being smothered in its cradle, that he never had the time, he lacked the leisure, to study and think. And like so many Israelis of the kind who now applaud him, there is no understanding of how to accept the grim news that the war against Israel has no end, but that this is not an intolerable realization. Indeed, to understand it clears the mind. It is salutary. It means one knows what kinds of things one can afford to do, and what one cannot. It means one knows how one's case should be presented, instead of doing so in such a slapdash and amateurish fashion as the Israelis, good apparently at high technology, good at agriculture and making deserts bloom, good at Gottex swimsuits and symphony orchestras, have shown us, whenever they try to present their case, that they doi not know where to put their feet and hands.
Why should the rest of us care? Because the Western world cannot, for moral and other reasons, permit yet again what happened with the Nazis. It cannot "wake up" to Islam on the dead bodies of the Jews of Israel, but should wake up long before that, and comprehend -- even if the Israelis themselves are not very good at making their case -- the connection between the Jihad against Israel, and the Jihad everywhere else.
For the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira do not say that one should conduct Jihad in order to "take back that sliver of territory the Infidel Jews now possess." No, the Jihad extends across the globe. Were Israel to succumb, or to be put in a situation where it had to live on Arab (Muslim) sufferance as a dhimmi state, this would hearten Muslims everywhere -- in Kashmir, in Russia, in black Africa, in the cities of Europe and North Americda. Tout se tient -- it all hangs together.
And given what Muslims today, thoroughly awakened by technology -- audiocassettes, videocassettes, satellite television -- to the full teachings of Islam, expressed often violently, and given the hatred for the "Crusaders," does anyone think if the Arab Muslims were to grap Jerusalem that the Christian sites would still be open, and protected, and accessible, in the same way as they have been, so marvellously and scrupulously, under Israli control? And the sense of power over the Christian world that control of Jerusalem would bring to Muslims would be palpable, and have all sorts of intolerable effects on the morale of the world's Christians, and intolerable effects on the morale of the world's most unpleasant Muslims.
There is much more one could say about this. The refusal of many Israelis to come to grips with what they face, and why any surrender of control of territory will inevitably whet, not sate, Arab Muslim appetites, and that the so-called business of maintining a state that is both "Jewish" and "democratic" cannot be achieved by withdrawal after withdrawal, which demoralizes the country, but needs to be established by an icy refusal to deal, a williingness to see all "agreements" with the enemy as Al-Hudaibiyya agreements, to be ripped up by the other side (and in the case of Gaza, the brilliant Sharon did not even have an agreement, but decided that unilateral surrender amde sense).
One hopes for what, under the circumstances, would be the best possible outcome. That is -- chaos, infighting, destruction, a real spectacle, as the "Palestinians" deal with one another in Gaza. The Israeli government decided to dismantle the houses left behind because it wanted to spare the world, and its own citizens, the sight of those "Palestinians" screaming triumphantly as they crawled all over the houses built by those Jewish villagers. And Abbas, too, did not want the world to see that spectacle.
Perhaps those houses should be left intact, so that the kind of fighting over the loot, the mad display of those who have been self-primitivized (look at any picture of a rally in Gaza, look carefully at those faces -- what would you make of such "neighbors"?), could be there for all to see. A chance missed.
t-ham:
there is 'no evidence' that it was 'muslims that caused the travesty of 9/11' and now we have the 'fantastic 4' of London, but again there is 'no evidence' and of course 'it was the Mossad-' and in case of the London subway bombing it was 'Blair, needing an excuse to blame muslims'- how could anyone doubt such sick and demented statements?
There is a concerted effort for the last 15 to 20 years of the sons of Allah to infiltrate the West. Australia, New Zealand, even some Pacific Island nations are being systematically infiltrated to spread Islam, the Arab poison...
We better get real soon. How ludicrous, how bizarre for our leaders to still pretend that there is a 'war on terror' when blind Freddie can smell the coffee?
Mass-deportations, internment, re-education for those who are considered 'eligible' to stay, yeah, that doesn't sound PC, but that's a start. Other than that, there is the options of mass-executions,- no, don't say this makes us 'haters'- we are unable to hate them like they hate us.
You can not compare the naive, unsuspecting 'live and let live' Westerner with the Muhammedan who sucks in the hatred with the mothers milk.Yeah, I know, that doesn't sound PC, but they want to kill us.
Self defense is not a sin.
I think the Gaza pullout was inevitable. I don't know the exact figures, but I imagine Jews make up less than 1% of the Gaza population. From a purely economic perspective, it seems untenable for Israel to maintain the security for such a small group. Sharon knows this.
Of course, the Jewish conservatives fear this is the first of a series of pullbacks until Israel stands on a postage stamp. I hope this is not the case.
Although impossible short of a war, it would have been better if ALL the arabs in Gaza had been "deported" to the West Bank. I don't know what genius separated the Palestians into two geographic regions, I'd like to bitch-slap those people.
Sharon has spent considerable polticial capital to get this done. Bibi is going to win the next election and control Likud. I hope he says something like "ok, you have Gaza - any more mayhem and we declare a state of war not against the terrorists, but against Palestine.
This is also why I am a huge fan of The Wall, which frightens Hamas so badly, because it seriously curtails their ability to kill Jews, and take Israeli welfare at the same time. (I understand Israel is one of the largest donors to the Palestinian territories).
If Hamas persists, I hope Israel has the guts to declare all out war. Gaza would then become Israeli territory, and the West Bank would be split half and half, with the P's that don't fit being accepted as refugees into Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt.
As long as the Palenstinian territories are not geographically contiguous, they can lay the claim that Israel is obstructing "commerce", not to mention the free flow of suicide vests to Gaza.
As to why Israel is pulling out of Gaza with no conditions, your guess is as good as mine.
I would like to follow with a question based on Voice of Skippy's comments. In the grand plan put forth by Western nations (not Muslims) what would "Palestine" look like georgraphically? I too have wondered who drew the Gaza/West Bank lines. How would they ever connect in the pie-in-the-sky state of Palestine...by a bridge, highway? Does anyone know how that would be solved by Western planners, putting aside how Muslims would like the turn out to be...all Palestine and no Israel.
The comment most telling of all by Ramadan Shalah is his "...including Palestinian efforts to maintain national unity" as an excuse to rocket Israelis. This kind of immoral illlogic will continue to plague Palestinians. If they were honest, they would admit that the lack of peace in Palestine exists because Palestinians can't deal with their own faults without blaiming Israel for them.
I've read Robert Spencer enough to know that the pullout will be parsed by the Palestinians as *their* doing. Sure enough, they had a poster contest for people to draw pictures of the "desperate" Israelis fleeing from the wrath of Hamas. Hamas and others are vying for who can hold the best celebrations.
Meanwhile, back in Europe, they're in full dhimmi mode. The Germans are going to establish a Muslim holiday:
Fee Fie Fo Fimmi. I Smell the Blood of a Dumb, Dumb, Dhimmi
You'd have thought that Sharon, that wily old strategist, might have absorbed the most crucial lesson of Oslo and Lebanon: i.e. wishful thinking, especially as it pertains to the behaviour of those who's primary goal is the destruction of Israel, is a game played by suicidal fools.
Hugh, another good posting. And after the pullout occurs, and terrorist attacks in Israel increase not decrease, what will the response be? Will it finally be "Enough!"? Or will the Peresites continue with "See? I told you it wasn't enough!"?
The "two-state solution" is a sick joke. Trans-Jordan (now simply Jordan) was created out of 70% of the original Mandate for Israel, and they immediately made Jordan/"Palestine" free of any Jews. Now, out of the remaining 30% of its land, Israel is supposed to create another "Palestine"? I'm no math professor, but that sounds like a "three-state solution", with the Muslims getting 80-90% of the land. And, as always, 80-90% is not enough for them.
They'll be needing more walls.
As the great philosopher has repeated over-and-over again, "Well,duh!" Jihad is eternal. Jihad will not even end if and when the whole world becomes Muslim for Jihad will be necessary to maintain that status because it is the human condition to resist tyranny.
Jihad will only end when Muslims decide that it is a futile and worthless philosophy. However, without Jihad, Islam can not be Islam... The only solution is draconian.
On the previous "phony fatwa" thread, our good friend Mohideen in challenging Hugh writes"
I am always amazed by the machinations used in Islam to explain away contradictions of their "perfect text." The koran states that God gave Judea to the Jews. So how do they overcome this little "minor inconsistency," but declare it part of the Arabian peninsula. It all ours now, no Jews allowed!
"This pullout is a disaster"
from Hugh's posting above
This pullout is a must. Once it occurs and after a year or three when the Hudna is over (for a permanent peace with the Unbelievers is simply not possible), yet another argument of the apologists falls.
There will be one less reason to justify the actions of the Jihadists, as the Palestininan-Israeli conflict could no longer be cited. There would be a state of Palestine, which would mean nothing to the Arabs, for Islam supercedes Nationality (always has and always will), but to Westerners, it would mean much. After the Jihad is begun anew, which simply must be waged until "all religion belongs to Allah", then the multiculturalists and the apologists would be at more of a loss to explain the actions of the "Palestinians" who then would already have their "homeland".
Already "poverty" cannot be cited, as the London suicide bombers were not living in any reasonable definition of poverty when they decided to wage Jihad on the British. When America withdraw from Iraq (sooner better than later) and Civil war ensues, then again, the believers will be shown to be far more interested in Jihad than peace. Step by step, the apologists arguments are pushed back. This is essential as this battle must be first won ideologically.
So let the Israeli's give up a sliver of land which in no significant way contributes towards the Israeli economy. Let the adherents of Islam show their true colours by continuing to wage Jihad. Let the world see what already the far sighted know will happen. Let the world see what Islam really is all about. Only then, will those who so far have been deceived about the true nature of Islam learn. Then, more unbelievers will begin to fight back than just a small minority of informed individuals.
Hugh: where is it written that Israel had to go on wasting men and money occupying and administering a tiny, expensive, resource-less hell-hole containing more than a million incurably disaffected people? Get rid of them, I say, the sooner the better. And as for South Tyrol, you can have no idea what pleasure it would give me to tie one big red ribbon around it and leave it on Austria's doorstep as a Christimas gift. Like the Gaza Arabs, the South Tyrolers are nothing but trouble, and Vienna would enjoy them no better than Rome does. A Viennese friend of mine once told me that Vienna regards North Tyrol as Austria's own redneck country, unreasonable and arrogant.
Amicus said "There will be one less reason to justify the actions of the Jihadists, as the Palestininan-Israeli conflict could no longer be cited."
Man oh man. Pardon my exasperation, but do you really, honestly think that they will have to pause more than 0.0001 milliseconds before coming up with the next reason? "The West Bank and Gaza are not contiguous!" "The Jews didn't give us any infrastructure to go with our new country!" "The Jews kept all the good land for themselves!" Okay, so there is one less reason, so that narrows it down from 9,999,999,999 to 9,999,999,998. Great.
And Paulo said "Get rid of them, I say, the sooner the better."
Huh? Is giving them their own country, with yet another Islamic seat in the U.N. to vote against Israel's existence, and with the ability to import massive shipments of weaponry with no oversight, is that "getting rid of them"? It's going to be the creation of a new terroracracy within a stones-throw of most of Israel, while Iran completes work on the Islamic nuclear weapon. If you really want to "get rid of them", check out the Benny Elon plan. It doesn't involve the creation of a second "Palestine".
I would think that those familiar with the teachings of the Qur'an would know the results of trying to appease the Islamists.
/end rant
Special Guest, your rant is right on! Israeli pullout from the Gaza strip will only embolden the muslims to make further demands. As long as there are muslims left in the truncated land of Israel, there are seeds for yet another intifada. This is, unfortunately, the sad history of Islam. An example in point is the creation of an Islamic Pakistan to satisfy the muslims at the time of India's independence. The Hindus/Sikhs/Christians then made the same kind of arguments that are currently being made, i.e. the vivisection of India was well worth it since it should guarantee peace with the muslims. So, did the creation of Pakistan lead to peace on the subcontinent? Fat chance! Now the muslims demand Kashmir as well. Does anybody seriously think that even if Kashmir were given to the muslims on a platter the muslim demands would end? Dream on!
Perhaps those houses should be left intact, so that the kind of fighting over the loot, the mad display of those who have been self-primitivized (look at any picture of a rally in Gaza, look carefully at those faces -- what would you make of such "neighbors"?), could be there for all to see. A chance missed.
Posted by: Hugh at August 11, 2005 08:09 AM
2Gold Stars for you today!!
Part of the Amwrican Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM LET NOT THE WORLD BE DECEIVED BY THEM AMEN
terminator;
"self defense is not a sin"
from my cold, dead fingers, brother, from my cold, dead fingers
special guest:
"...0000.1 milliseconds"
exactly
Special Guest,
It is true that Muslim apologists will always have reasons to justify the actions of the Jihadists. However, none are so firmly believed in Europe as the "oppression" of the Palestinians by the Israelis. If this myth can be dispelled, then it would be a great step towards crushing the inroads that 30 years of Islamic propaganda initiated by the European Arab Dialogue has achieved (see Bat Y'eor's Eurabia). Palestinians attacking Israel after gaining their homeland would achieve just that. Then, many Europeans would be much less inclined to believe in the transparent arguments of the apologists and more likely to realise the dangers that Islam poses to Europe and America.
There is also nothing in my previous post which states that we should appease the Islamists. I believe that Israel pulling out of Gaza would ultmately work against the forces of Islam due to the reasons detailed above. You have clearly misunderstood my argument.
I'd love to believe, as Amicus seems to,
("So let the Israeli's give up a sliver of land which in no significant way contributes towards the Israeli economy.")
that disengagement policies represent an Israeli "hudna" that temporarily retreats from economically undeveloped and tactically unimportant lands. Unfortunately I can not, but perhaps I am just a victim of a propaganda video that can be seen here.
http://www.machonmeir.org.il/leumi/sakin_balev_english_300.wmv
From the San Francisco Chronicle
Aiken Bryce: that article has already been posted on this blog.
MaccusGermanis
What is an "Israeli Hudna"? A Hudna is a temporary truce in Islamic teachings, to enable Muslims to regroup and continue Jihad at a later date. A Hudna does not exist in Judeo teachings, so what do you mean by this term.
Merely posting links to show that the Jihad will continue against Israel does not disprove what I have previously said. My argument is based around the fact that Israel will continue to be subjected to Jihadist attacks after the Palestinians are granted their "homeland". Then, the West will be given a wake up call concerning the true motives of the Jihadists, which are mainly to ensure that the world is governed under Islamic Law. Many people in Europe believe that the Israeli Palestinian conflict is the main reason for Jihadist activity today. Continued attacks against Israel after Palestine is given autonomy will dispel that myth. If you do not believe me, then either go to Europe yourself and ask around what people think, or read Bat Ye'or's Eurabia, which confirms what I am saying.
I simply despair.
Amicus,
The link is also illustrative of what is being given up. You had seemed, in my view, to quick to downplay the contributions of the settlements to the state of Isreal. We seem in agreement, that jihad will continue against Isreal after the pullout, but I fear you give Europeans and Americans to much credit. After 30 years of sustained jihad, after Isreali pullouts in southern Lebanon and the Sinai, US/Europe continues to call for more appeasement. As I said before, I wish that I could, as you seem to, beleive that this is, at last, the wake up call that will force Western powers to lend their full support to Isreal. Instead I feel that jihadists will only be happy when Isreal ceases to exist, and only then will appeasement proponents of US/Europe admit their mistake.
As to my use of isreali hudna.As you said a "temporary truce," were as you suggest that US/Europe can be shown the error of their appeasement policies.
yikes before you say it I will,
The grammar and spelling in my last post is horrible.
I'd meant that you were "too quick to downplay" the settlements. And that you give "too much credit" to US/Europe
More concisely, If US/Europe was going to see this conflict for what it is, then they should have seen it by now. These settlements have an economic and tactical importance that outweighs any political gain.