The "moderate" and much-lionized Sistani may be behind this -- yet another indication that his support for the elections was just a gambit to gain more power for the Shi'ites: a gambit that seems to have utterly fooled the self-deluded proponents of a Nobel Prize for this man who considers unbeliever as unclean as excrement. From Reuters, with thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist:
NAJAF, Iraq (Reuters) - With four days left until Iraq's leaders have promised a draft constitution, powerful Islamist leaders made a dramatic bid on Thursday to have a big, autonomous Shi'ite region across the oil-rich south.The head of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) spelled out his demands to tens of thousands of chanting supporters in the Shi'ite holy city of Najaf.
But minority Sunni and secular opponents, as well as rival Shi'ite Islamists in the coalition national government, swiftly poured cold water on an idea that fueled fears about sectarian battles over oil and Iranian-style religious rule in the south.
Some saw it as a negotiating tactic ahead of a self-imposed deadline on Monday to present the draft to parliament; a top Shi'ite negotiator, who dismissed the demand made by SCIRI chief Abdel Aziz al-Hakim, said 16 points were still in dispute.
It was unclear whether the row -- and continued arguments over the extent of Islamic law -- would delay delivery of a text that Washington hopes can help quell the Sunni Arab insurgency.
The crucial issue is the nature of federalism and the quest for wording to satisfy Kurdish demands for continued autonomy in the north, Shi'ite hopes for some new autonomy in the south, and also address concerns among Sunni Arabs and others in the center that they not be left with a rump Iraqi state deprived of oil.
"If we can deal with that ... we should finish in the next few days so the draft will be ready on time," Bahaa al-Araji, a senior Shi'ite on the constitution drafting panel, told Reuters.
"If there were Shi'ite and Sunni regions it would simply entrench sectarianism and destroy the unity of Iraq."
U.S. diplomats, active on the sidelines of talks on what is a vital project for American interests, have clear reservations about SCIRI's traditional ties to Washington's regional foe Iran and make plain they will not stand for clerical rule in Iraq.
SHI'ITE DEMANDS
Hakim, a striking figure in clerical robes whose long exile in Tehran make him a figure of suspicion for many Sunni Arabs, was backed up in his demands at the Najaf rally by the leader of the Badr movement, formed in Iran as the armed wing of SCIRI.
"They are trying to prevent the Shi'ites from enjoying their own federalism," Badr leader Hadi al-Amery told the crowd, which had gathered to commemorate the assassination two years ago by a car bomb in Najaf of Hakim's brother, the former SCIRI leader.
"What have we got from the central government but death?" he said, recalling decades of oppression under Sunni-dominated rule from Baghdad, most recently by Saddam Hussein.
"We think it necessary to form one whole region in the south," said Hakim, a major force in the coalition that came to power in January's election, secured by U.S. military force.
But Laith Kubba, spokesman for Prime Minister Ibrahim Jaafari, an Islamist from rival Shi'ite party Dawa, said: "The idea of a Shi'ite region ... is unacceptable to us."
"It's a bad idea," Kubba told Reuters.
CLERICAL BACKING?
Yet despite the initial cold shoulder, it may be significant that Hakim made his announcement hours after meeting Iraq's top cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, in Najaf on Wednesday.
Though Sistani, who rarely appears in public, has typically made no comment, his backing could be vital and some political sources close to Islamist thinking say there is broader support, well beyond SCIRI, for the autonomy project in years to come.
This shows that there is actually a lot of Iraqi resistance to an Islamic-ruled national constitution. Thus the idea of trying to legislate Islam locally instead of nationally as an end run around the secular resistance.
The Iraq mess is just that. Bush, Rumsfield and Cheney have made a real mess, and I am saddened for the loss of our fine men and women and I am angry at the $ wasted in Iraq. They just don't get it. Islam is the problem, and is a lost cause. Nation building, no thanks.
pedestrian infidel, I hate to admit it, but I think you're right. Thanks to this web site, I've been paying a lot more attention to what the Muslims have been saying...and not saying.
At first I thought Mr. Spencer might be a little biased against Islam, but Muslims seem to be standing in line to prove him right. Islam is the problem. Its adherents talk peace, but promote violence. They lie, lie again, and then lie some more.
The West in its' fervent desire for 'diversity' and polical correctness somehow assumes equality among all beliefs and religions.
But the reality is that some religions are better than others.
A religion that was born in violence, grows only through deception and violence, and whose adherents are only united when killing non-adherents, is a cancer on humanity.
We can't hope for a healthy democracy in Iraq until this cancer is removed. And we know that isn't going to happen - ever.
CATHERINE:
I think your jumping all over Pedestrian Infidel's post is exactly the kind of thing that's going to convince Robert to eliminate the reader comments from this site. It's JIHAD watch, not Bush-bashing watch. Yes, Bush has made huge mistakes regarding islam, and so has Clinton...but that's not the point here. The point of Jihad Watch is outlined on the front page of this website.
Your rants are going to get the comments shut down for all of us. I may agree with some of your views, but Robert has asked that we keep the political commentary relevant to the spirit of the website. There's a place for you partisan chest-beating, but it isn't here.
And for God's sake, please learn to post links!!!
Catherine, I have no idea what you are talking about. None of what you pasted beneath 'posted by pedestrian infidel' is anything I wrote.
What the hell??? My brain is sizzling in my skull trying to figure out what Cathrine is talking about....but good reviews up until that point.
President Caves In
This just in on the wires:
Bush to Give Islamofacist Visa For U.N. Propaganda Visit
Catherine, It's Bush's mess. Surrounded by sycophants who refuse to study Islam. If they would study Islam, a false religion for murderers, they would know the way to beat Islam is to create chaos in Islam which we can do from our own shores without loss of American allies. Trying to lay a democracy over Islam is pointless. After we had killed Saddam and his 2 sons, we should have left immediately. Nationbuilding is stupid.
One can argue that this isn't about Shi'ites trying to demand autonomy, but religious fanatics, who want to impose their views on the general populace. Then this is hardly different than some current trends in the US. However:
"There were around 33 comments by different commentors from Basra, 18 of the comments were against what the parties and their militias were doing in Basra, 9 were supportive of one or both of the two parties, 3 denied the problem, 2 moderately discussed the subject and think that an agreement with the militias can be reached and 1 comment was irrelevant to the subject."
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/2005/08/southwhere-to.html
That's hardly a 'majority' support for radicals who want theocracy, enforced by murder, over real representation. However, one bets that the moment the press gets hold of it, the 18 decractors will mysteriously disappear, in favor of the 9 that claimed they loved what was going on. Its a small number, compared to many polls, but... Same situation their. If you look at polls taken by external journalists, usually in areas of insurgent activity, you get a heavy bias in favor of radicals, if you look at polls taken 'by' Iraqi journalists over the entire country, you find the numbers scewed 180 degrees the other way around. As much as I think Catherine needs to go back on her medication (why do some people persist in thinking that ALL CAPS somehow gets their point across better, instead of just making them look like a complete fool??), the reality is that Bush might have made the initial stupid move, but only a complete idiot (or Bush) presumes that pot wasn't already full of cockroaches, snakes and scorpians, even before someone stirred it up. Nor is it sane to try to argue that we should have never removed the lid and that just waiting around would somehow have caused all the bugs to die on their own. Heck, am I the only one that saw a post about documents on the Anti-War in Iraq German cities, which implied a desire to kill people in there too?
Blame Bush all you want. While I think the best place for him would be sharing a cell along side Saddam. Someone else in the same situation wouldn't have 'stopped' any of it happening, even if they had planned for it better, nor would leaving Saddam in power made Iran more or less insistent on a nuclear program, Saudia Arabia any less a terrorist hot bed, encouraged Lebanon to at least try to reform or stopped the recent uprising of the Taliban in Afghanistan all over again, any more than agreeing to let them give me a bible would keep Seven Day Adventists from coming to my front door and bugging the hell out of me. These people are not interesting in our freedom, the freedom of people to make their own choices in their countries or peace between all religions. They want war with anything not Islam, women to have no freedom at all and everyone else to conform to a version of Islam that gives them permission to murder anyone that annoys them, including other Muslims, which they can conveniently claim, "are not true muslims, because they didn't kill me first and claim that I wasn't one either."
Its religion driven sadism and self interested oppression.
Posted by: Kagehi at August 11, 2005 09:02 PM
it is not about the point it is just easier for me to read some times the light from the computer screan and I aint no typest??
Just a Redneck who loves her Short Skirts and Hair blowen in the wind!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Heros and ALL who Fight with her Amen
I must agree with Catherine that
"IT WAS NOT BUSH WHO FLEW PLANES INTO BUILDINGS"
and if I may add,
it was not Neville Chamberlain that invaded Poland.
I feel that there are many facts that defend Bush's actions before and directly after 9/11 but thay are, in this discussion, off topic. The idea of a democratic republic in Iraq is noble, nobler still are the fighting men and women that work to acheive it. But the pervasivness of Islam in Iraqi society causes many of us to doubt its probabilty. In truth I feel the brave men and women of our armed forces will leave behind a democracy. And that democracy will shock all our sensibilties.
from article above
"If there were Shi'ite and Sunni regions it would simply entrench sectarianism and destroy the unity of Iraq."
Such sectarianism seems already entrenched and to ignore it seems folly. Unity is a myth that the US and other western cultures most closely resemble and yet we have borders. Borders encourage peace, one way or the other. To expect unity between societies that are unready for it encourages conflict.
jeez im going to miss the comments section. ill have to find other ways to amuse myself. i truly enjoy all the posts, well, almost all. as you can see, i suffer from terminal laziness when it comes to capitalization and inserting apostrophies where needed and for that i am sorry. however, in my favor, i have read strunk and whites "the elements of style" and so keep my comments pithy. and so on to lgf, i guess.
Having read Stephan Vincents view of Basra and also reading various Iraqi blogs we can see the future for Iraqi, or perhaps the break up of Iraq.
You just have to see how Sadr has taken over in the south. The Kurds want their own nation and are well on the way to that, remember something here, the Kurds have the own national identity above and beyond Islam, being the victims of Arab and Turkish genocide and racism, that has made them more aware of their Kurdish identity and even though Islam is their religion their own race is a stronger pull.
The test, can any Islamic country become democratic? Well I think we are finding out the answer in Iraq, if the Islamic List win a majority of the seats in Iraq then the US should pull out of the majority of the country and defend the Kurdish areas.
Iraq is getting in the way now of the one major issue and that is dealing with nuclear weapons in Iran. It has got to the stage of them and us. If we stay in Iraq then the soldiers based in the Shi ite areas are almost hostages to any action against Iran, that is in my opinion very necessary. I think we have come to a them and us situation.
Finally about Muslim immigration, as far as I can work out every country in the world has a large and growing Muslim population. It is the Islamic attempt to take over the world. When that blows up in our faces as it has already started too, that will be as bad as having nuclear bombs, can you imagine large gangs of AK-47 totting Muslim youths running amok in the cities, towns and villages of Europe, I can. The bedrock of our system is our economic system, which is under threat by both oil shocks and insurgencies, that is our soft underbelly.
I read Roberts most recent book and I agree with the strategies proposed, once our people have the understanding that we are at war with Islam as laid down in the Quran, Islam should no longer be welcome / allowed within the West, give it up or leave. All mosques should be closed down. Of course they will re-act to this, but are we any worse off then our current situation, I have struggled internally with such a direction, but I think as the Muslim population is following a religion that is fundementally evil and does not fit with our vision of universal human rights then I think that is the crunch.
I can not understand why the majority of the Left have not seen that, though I am seeing signs that they are waking up to it, I think we are at a tipping point, I think the Left will see Islam as the enemy very soon and if they don't we lose.
On a final point, people come on to such blogs to read and make comments, you remove the comments then how can you get an inter-change of ideas or beliefs. There are people with extremist views, perhaps what I said above is extreme, but unlike an Islamofacist I still see a large part of the Muslim population as people even though I despise their belief system and their destruction of what I saw as the development of one world.
I think Ali Sina has got it spot on, but now we have to turn the screws, no more acting like a pussy.