D.C. Watson to CAIR: Bring it

DCWatsonShades37DC37.jpg
A friend of us all, Mr. D.C. Watson

D.C. Watson responds to CAIR’s challenge:

Muslims aim to challenge critics in America

Convention seminar focuses on best ways for followers to respond when their faith is attacked.

From the story:

As the Plainfield-based Islamic Society of North America hosts nearly 40,000 Muslims this weekend near Chicago at its 42nd annual convention, there is plenty of talk here about how Muslims must answer their critics and, if need be, get tough with them.

At a Saturday morning seminar attended by more than 200 people, the discussion included how to apply pressure on politicians who smear the faith, the benefits of corporate boycotts and what constitutes legal grounds for defamation suits.

“The key,” Corey P. Saylor, government affairs director for the Council on American-Islamic Relations told the audience, “is to not just sit back and take it.”

Arsalan T. Iftikhar, the national legal director for CAIR, said Saturday it was time for everyday Muslims to “defend the image and reputation of the community and Islam in general.”

“I am here to teach you how the American Muslim community can legally empower itself to protect itself in the American courts,” he said, as he went into the nuances of the limits of the First Amendment.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050904/NEWS01/509040496/1006/NEWS01

If need be, get tough with critics of Islam?

OK. Please allow me to explain to the pillars of the community over at CAIR that the American people have the right to criticize anyone and anything of their choosing. Critics of Islam, and there are multitudes of them, have the absolute right to speak the truth — which is apparently what some people seem incapable of facing or seeing exposed.

Mr. Iftikhar, once this column reaches you, perhaps you can explain to the American people at what point telling the truth about something became actionable in a court of law. For example, if I were to write publicly that three former officers from your organization, Royer, Elashi, and Khafagi, are either in prison, on their way to prison, or have been deported from the United States for having been convicted of terror and fraud related crimes, would that be libelous?

If someone were to say that the Qur’an teaches Muslims not to befriend Jews and Christians — as it states clearly in Sura 5:51 — is that slander?

If an American or any other Westerner were to say that Muslims have committed more than 2500 terror attacks around the world since their cowardly attack of 9/11/2001, should he or she be sued?

Or what if an American were to state that Muhammad, while in his early 50s, married a 6-year-old girl named Aisha, and consummated the marriage when Aisha was 9? Should he be sued, even though Muslim sources say just that?

How about this? What if, in front of a room full of people, say, during a conference, an American says that Islam promotes violence against non-Muslims, and then produces a few verses from the Qur’an — let’s say Surah 9:5, or Surah 9:29, or maybe even Surah 48:29, to take just a few examples — along with newspaper articles detailing Islamic terrorists claiming responsibility for carrying out attacks around the world and citing those same verses to justify their actions. Would CAIR consider that a “smearing” of Islam?

Uh oh! What if someone says that the Qur’an promotes wife-beating, and also teaches that men are superior to women, as is clearly stated in Qur’an 4:34: “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them.” Would you waste the taxpayers’ money and the court’s time with a frivoulous lawsuit?

What if an American, or many Americans, tell their fellow countrymen that members of the Council on American Islamic Relations are working toward the conversion of the United States and the rest of the West to Islam? Should they be sued for that? Or fired from their job? Or smeared as a bigot? Or, should they simply produce the following statements made by the people at CAIR that would support their claims?

Like this: “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran”¦.should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.” ~ Omar Ahmad, former chairman, Council on American Islamic Relations
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6473

Or this: “I wouldn’t want to create the impression that I wouldn’t like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future.” ~ Ibrahim Hooper, Council on American Islamic Relations.
http://www.blessedcause.org/other%20news%20sources/therealcair.htm

On the other side of the coin, would Americans and Westerners be able to sue CAIR and other prominent Muslims who label them “Islamophobes”?

After all, a phobia, according to Webster’s Dictionary is “an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation.” So could CAIR be sued or countersued for defamation of character or slander for claiming that someone is an “Islamophobe,” which as far as we can tell means to have an exaggerated, illogical fear of Islam? With the thousands of Muslim terror attacks on record, and the ever-growing list of the “tiny minority” of Muslims in America who are either behind bars, on the run from American law enforcement, or have been deported, is CAIR able to prove that someone’s fear is illogical? Or if “Islamophobia” actually exists at all? I suppose we”d have to leave that for a jury to decide.

We have not forgotten who carried out 9/11. We have not forgotten who carried out 3/11 in Madrid, or 7/7 in London. Mr. Iftikhar, Mr. Hooper, Mr. Awad, and the rest of you at the Council on American Islamic Relations: a few fellow Americans and I again invite you to step on stage in a televised national debate, so that you can explain what you would consider slander, libel, or defamation of Islam, and how you would propose to convince an American court of this. Please accept this invitation by contacting the directors at Jihad Watch and Faith Freedom. C”mon, it”ll be fun.

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Comments

  1. says

    That d c watson looks a right rough looking git if you ask me – a bit like one of those mean, bad wrestlers that everybody boos in the ring

    lets hope he is also tough enough to hit islamists where it hurts – only the truth will do

  2. says

    The truth is what this bloke tells, and he doesn’t seem to mind not pulling his punches. I’ve read his stuff, and he doesn’t play any games.

    This gives new reason to tell the council on islamic relations where not to dock their boat.

  3. says

    I propose a tag-team match with “Texas Tornado Rules”. DC Watson & Spencer vs. Ibrahim Hooper and Ifthikar. I know who I’m betting on…

  4. says

    Re Doc’s picture;

    Hell, I’m not even a muslim and I’m intimidated. Sure seems like the kind of guy you’d want watching your back in a brawl.

  5. says

    I would be wary about stating that islam “promotes” wife beating.

    You obviously need more “quite time” with the Koran.

    Here, pick your translation.
    004.034
    YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
    PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
    SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

    Also you only need to observe how Islam is practiced in Islamic countries to see they do indeed put these verses into practice.

    f.g.

  6. says

    It appears to me that CAIR, and other Muslim advocacy groups aren’t all that interested in punishing those individual citizens who write letters to newspaper editors, or those who display certain bumper stickers.

    I suspect the primary goal is to target our press and our politicians, and to harass large publicly owned companies.

    So, it’s our job, as private citizens, to make sure that our press and our politicians, and our nation’s large publicly owned companies know and understand OUR concerns, too.

    But, note, every such letter or email or phone conversation should be thought out aforehand, and should be factual and accompanied by appropriate references (be they Qur’anic verses, or news articles, or exerpts from various reputable books and periodicals).

    If private citizens don’t keep our press, our politicians, and publicly owned corporate managers fully informed, who will?

  7. says

    DC Watson/ Hugh – Would it be alright to use some of your quotes from postings here and DW in letters to the editors etc… I often find myself wanting to respond to articles or opeds where usefull idiots rant on about the wonders of islam but find myself at loss for the correct words.

    Also , Is there any forum on the internet where like minded persons could get together to proof letters etc… to try to make sure that we are putting out factual ,correct information to our local media etc…

    Any thoughts, ideas would be apriciated.

    Thanks

  8. says

    I would hardly say that those verses “promote” beating as a fundamental part of the relationship between men and women. I am not making apologies and I was aware of those verses but I haven’t seen these verses being “promoted” in general. By all means highlight they are there but to state that muslim men (in the main) are encouraged to beat their wives is a bit off the mark is all I am saying.

  9. says

    DC watson is spot on with his definition of islamophobia – a phobia is an irrational fear – and there is nothing irrational about non-muslims’ fear of islam, those who know the facts anyway

    heres another – if i say that mohammed was a “blaspheming liar” (which all true christian people believe because of what he said about christ) will i be put in the dock for that?

    id be walking the plank if these people had their way

  10. says

    In response to TooBad,

    There are a lot of elements of the Koran that are not promoted “in general” in Western Society, because, if they were, the myth that Islam is a “Religion Of Peace” would crumble.

  11. says

    PRCS,

    you posted:

    “I suspect the primary goal is to target our press and our politicians, and to harass large publicly owned companies.”

    Couldn’t agree more.

    Perhaps we can thank the Rev. Jesse Jackson for these time honoured tactics.

    Also, whilst I am not a U.S. citizen, from the little I do know about your Constitution, I find the idea of a muslim who is an expert on the First Amendment hilariously ironic.

  12. says

    I’m sure they’ve done an intensive course in the UK and are now very well equipped to use the courts to pursue their agenda. A school round my way was taken to court and forced to put halal meat on the menu – none of the other non-Muslim parents consulted BTW. The costs were paid through legal aid too courtesy of the tax payer. You couldn’t make it up could you?

  13. says

    I am a little disappointed DC didn’t make mention of FGM, killing apostates, killing of gays etc which islamic scholars such as al-Qaradawi happily promotes and endorses. Crikey, the list is endless !!

    Posted by: TooBad at September 8, 2005 12:50 PM

    TooBad, he didn’t have to mention it, because you just did, friend. This is how its supposed to work, mate. All of us need to just keep outting these dongers.

    The truth is the truth, and they cannot prove otherwise.

  14. says

    At last someone has the gumption to challenge the litigious CAIR. Well done Sir, we all need to congratulate you and join with you in exposing the Evil that is Islam that has been foisted in the Western world and have been allowed by their terror and other tactics to expand and get converts mostly from the crimial elements in the Prison systems. No educated well informed individual living in the West will become a Muslim unless his mind set is in the 7th century demonology. The usual adage that it is the fastest growing religion is a big misnommer. It seems to grow as they breed like rats and under free social welfare/medical systems in the western countries. I dont know in the US, here in the Europe their growth rate per family is about 4.8 children where as the gorwth rate of European citizen is about 1.2 children per family. Also over 90% of Asylum seekers are Muslims from Kosovo, Iraq, Iran,Pakistan, Bangladesh,Somalia,Algeria, Libiya and so forth.
    That is how it is growing, not by people converting except for the uneducated, ill informed criminal element in Prisons. It is NOT the fasted growing religion via conversion in Europe per se.

  15. says

    All DC needs at this point is a few well thought out plans about other issues for the citizens of the United States, a running mate equally fervent about the disease running rampant throughout the world, and I think we’ve got a damn good presidential nomination.

    What do you say, people? Is it time to get somebody in the oval office who isn’t willing to bend over backwards to appease the encroaching evil, but rather willing to put it in a headlock and squeeze it until it pops?

    I know that if DC ran, myself and others out there would be voting for him!

  16. says

    And we can ask CAIR if they think Paul Johnson’s family feels Islamophobic.

    For those of you who either do not know or have forgotten, Paul Johnson was the U.S. citizen who was snatched and beheaded in Al Khobar, Saudi Arabia last year. They still have not found all of his body. And probably will not. Saudi authorities are pretty sure they have caught and killed those responsible.

    jay

  17. says

    The truth is an absolute defense against libel that’s what lead to CAIR dropping some portions of their suit against Anti-CAIR.Americans can legally say anything they want about Islam as long as they are telling the truth.Americans can also express opinions about Islam good, bad or ugly whether Muslims like it or not. That is what freedom of speech is all about. I doubt we will see many lawsuits from Muslims as they have a lot to lose if the true nature of Islam becomes common knowledge.This is more about attempts to intimidate average citizens, corporations,politicians and journalists into silence.CAIRs problem is that there are some people who are not going to be silent and the truth about Islam will get out.

  18. says

    D.C., did you photoshop that bicep?..Yikes!!

    o/t..sept 8 2005
    BANGKOK (Reuters) – Overwhelmingly Buddhist Thailand, struggling to end an increasingly bloody insurgency in its largely Muslim south, appointed its first Muslim army chief on Thursday.

    “His understanding of Islam can help the Army to customise their operations to win hearts and minds of Muslims in the south.”

    http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-09-08T123537Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_India-215432-1.xml

  19. says

    When Michael Graham was fired from WMAL radio,the station probably got one hundred times more e-mails and phone calls in support of Graham,than they did from CAIR-related “offended” muslims….and yet it didn`t matter,they didn`t care,they went ahead and fired the guy.
    Which shows that the left wing politicians and the media are already in a dhimmi state of mind,for them the opinion of a muslim is worth 10 times more than one coming from an “infidel”.
    Writing articles,making phone calls is not the way to go.
    If we want anything done about this,before it`s too late,we`ll have to take it to the streets,by the hundreds of thousands.

  20. says

    otterfisher posted: Overwhelmingly Buddhist Thailand, struggling to end an increasingly bloody insurgency in its largely Muslim south, appointed its first Muslim army chief on Thursday.

    If that is the solution they have chosen, they will continue to “struggle”, until they realise that there is only one way.

  21. says

    D.C. Watson,

    I’ve been reading your posts for quite some time, both here and at LGF. I can only say that you have found your voice magnificently. Keep up the good work.

  22. says

    DC, you have a problem with Islam? Discuss it with scholars. You have a problem with Islam go ahead, disagree with Islam, stamp your feet and make a loud noise. I really couldn’t care. Islam is still here, 1400+ years on, more than a billion Muslims practice Islam peacefully and are good human beings.

    You however wish to cause as much pain and hardship to Muslims living in the West as possible, pathetic. I feel sorry for you. And then you wonder why no one takes you seriously. Your arguments are weak, you seem to think the whole world is deluded, when it is you that is intoxicated on Islamophobia and racism.

    A message to the people here, try this. Smile, by happy. Try that. You’re acting like a bunch of Scrooges.

  23. says

    As the Plainfield-based Islamic Society of North America hosts nearly 40,000 Muslims this weekend near Chicago at its 42nd annual convention, there is plenty of talk here about how Muslims must answer their critics and, if need be, get tough with them
    I suppose that means doing more than beheading people, which is the response in islamic countries.

  24. says

    IA, nice to see you’ve come back after your brief absence. Sad to see you haven’t gotten any smarter, mate.

    Islam is what Islam is, and it is not good.

    You posted this: You however wish to cause as much pain and hardship to Muslims living in the West as possible, pathetic. I feel sorry for you. And then you wonder why no one takes you seriously. Your arguments are weak, you seem to think the whole world is deluded, when it is you that is intoxicated on Islamophobia and racism.

    How do you figure that anyone wants to cause hardship and pain? Are you that sick? This is a free speech issue, mate. What arguments in this article are are weak, you shonk?

    It’s all true. You’re the one no one takes seriously, mate. Because you’re another apologist. What a pathetic being you are. If you know the koran, you know that everything that has been said it true. Is that what bothers you so?

    you should go and get your head checked, or go and dunk it in the loo.

  25. says

    IA, one more item, show some stats on the 1 billion number if you can. it is another inflation tactic until it is proven.

    just like there are maybe half of the muslims in the US that muslims say there are. the same is holding true for the world number too isn’t it mate?

  26. says

    “How do you figure that anyone wants to cause hardship and pain?”

    By reading the material posted on JW/DW.

    “Are you that sick?”

    It is your ilk that are sick.

    “This is a free speech issue, mate. What arguments in this article are are weak, you shonk?”

    Free speech, are you sure about that. Okay, you are free to say you hate Muslims, even those that practise Islam peacefully, you are free to say you want them thrown out of the west you bigot.

    “It’s all true. You’re the one no one takes seriously, mate.”

    There is alot of discrimination out there against Asians and especially Muslims. Everyone has gone through this. As a Muslim I will do my utmost to ensure I have equal opportunities, if you oppose that and want me to have a lower status in my country then you need you head checked, mate.

    “Because you’re another apologist. What a pathetic being you are. If you know the koran, you know that everything that has been said it true. Is that what bothers you so?”

    I don’t need to apologise for anything. Its simply foolish for you to blame more than a billion people for what a few do. I am responsible for my own actions, not some fanatic in some desert.

    “If you know the koran, you know that everything that has been said it true. Is that what bothers you so?”

    I fear nothing. Islam is there for everyone, the Quran is there, as are the hadith, Islam is open, you cannot suppress that.

  27. says

    Hi ia,
    You said, A message to the people here, try this. Smile, by happy. Try that. You’re acting like a bunch of Scrooges.

    Posted by: ia786
    I was going to link to some quotes by Khomeini, but every last one of the sites with Khomeini quotes were infested with infections which my Spyware Dr. wouldn’t let me access. I wonder why that is, ia? Who would plant viruses and spyware on sites that quote him? Oh well, one I remember well is “There is no fun in islam”.

  28. says

    “Posted by: ia786
    I was going to link to some quotes by Khomeini, but every last one of the sites with Khomeini quotes were infested with infections which my Spyware Dr. wouldn’t let me access. I wonder why that is, ia? Who would plant viruses and spyware on sites that quote him? Oh well, one I remember well is “There is no fun in islam”.”

    And……..I am not Shia, though I do respect all Muslims.

    I am a British Muslim, I enjoy me life, I’m happy, I’m free from blind hatred like the people here, I don’t have that burden on me.

    I am free. I am happy. I really do feel sorry for some of the people here.

    You should smile for often.

  29. says

    I don’t hate all Muslims. I just wish one of them had the balls to discuss the words in the koran without race baiting. Islam isnt a race, mate. Grow up. You are making dumb statements and reading this wrong, as usual, bigot

  30. says

    ia786:

    Islam is there for everyone, the Quran is there, as are the hadith, Islam is open, you cannot suppress that.

    What an odd thing to say. Surely everyone on this site wants to see the contents of the Qur’an and Hadith become as widely known as possible.

    There is alot of discrimination out there against Asians and especially Muslims. Everyone has gone through this. As a Muslim I will do my utmost to ensure I have equal opportunities, if you oppose that and want me to have a lower status in my country then you need you head checked, mate.

    I support equal rights for all. Can you make the same statement? Do you reject the idea of dhimmi status for non-Muslims?

  31. says

    To ia786, I dont think DC has a problem with Islam, It appears that Islam has a problem with all the people who live in the Western world. What is there to discuss with scholars when they lie and interpret the Quran and Hadiths to hide exactly what it says.
    Islam is there because people like you who never question anything, you have been brain washed from birth. You can never have individual thought; your narrative shows that you have learnt nothing living in the affluent, secular western world. But it does not change the fact that quran teaches hatred and violence aginst non muslims and Mohammed practised it.
    It is true that quran is without chronology and context and is a collection of of one liners and cannot be understood without hadiths and Mohammed’s biography, but reading chronology and context does not leave any doubts whatsoever that Mohammed looted and killed innocent non muslims and raped their women, had his critcs asassinated and terrorized whole of Arabia.
    He changed the rules of piety and declared every evil act as pious in Allah’s eyes if practised on non muslims. Quran indicates it and all hadiths and early biographies confirm it.
    Yes, I agree there are over a billion muslims in the world living in wretched, poverty stricken, God forsaken countries, with no human rights or the basic amenities of life such as,in Bangladesh, Indonesia, Niger, Sudan,Somalia and so forth,where the modern civilised world is only a dream. No wonder more than 90% of asylum seekers to the West come from the Muslin world. If islam is so gratifying & great why are people literally dying to leave these Islamic paradises?
    I have found that if anyone questions or comments on Islam, immedidately he is termed a Islamaphobe or a racist or in muslim countries he or she is beheaded.Thats the answer that islam has to any one questioning it or disagreeing.

  32. says

    You have a problem with Islam go ahead, disagree with Islam, stamp your feet and make a loud noise.

    Posted by: ia786 at September 8, 2005 06:04 PM

    IA look, mate. the council on islamic relations is the one stamping feet and making too much loud noise. why don;t you address them? because they are muslims, and therefore can do no wrong, mate?

  33. says

    “I just wish one of them had the balls to discuss the words in the koran without race baiting.”

    What the hell has that got to do with terrorism? You don’t like Islam, you don’t have to.

    So what are your intentions, tell me. Be blunt with me. You don’t like the fact that Islam is a rapidly growing faith, you don’t like Westerners accepting Islam, what is it? Are you jealous? What is it?

    (please don’t give me the usual, Islam murdered x amount on x, blah blah)

    More than a Billion people find peace and tranquillity in Islam, these people have developed a personal relationship with God and this has benefited them as a human being and all those around them.

    What the hell has that got to do with you?

    You’ve got a problem with terrorism, everyone has, I admit extremism is a problem, the problem is that a lot of the people here use this to try and justify the oppression of all (Muslim) peaceful moderate law-abiding citizens in the West.

    By the way terrorism by fanatics has probably killed more Muslims than Non-Muslims.

  34. says

    ia 786. You state there is a lot of racism in the west, then why dont you leave and go to one of those Islamic paradises?
    I bet you enjoy life in the securlar/Christian world; because you cannot enjoy the basic freedoms in your Islamic paradises, Yes, you are free, as you live in the west and enjoy all what the west has to offer.
    Muslims have never been able to invent anything really useful to humanity. This is because the schools concentrate on learning the Koran word by word rather than true inquiries into nature, politics, science, philosophy or anything. They are taught not to question but to submit, to be a slave to allah. They simply parrot the Koran over and over and over again, rather than cultivate any spirit of enquiry. It is brainwashing.
    Thats exactly your problem.
    This is why Islamic societies always decline rather than improve. All of the great ideas as the steam engine, the wheel, the compass, the car, the plane, the phone, electric light, the valve, the transistor, the television, the internet, nuclear power, spacecraft, satalites and all the other great inventions are from the Christian world. Welcome, ‘ia786’from a backward Islamic nation to the west and enjoy the benefits of the civilized Christian world.

  35. says

    “What an odd thing to say. Surely everyone on this site wants to see the contents of the Qur’an and Hadith become as widely known as possible.”

    Believe me, its not an odd thing to say. Islam will enter every place on Earth, that is a Prophecy. True Islam will never be suppressed. Extremists and those that use them will never succeed. That is the Lords promise.

    “I support equal rights for all. Can you make the same statement? Do you reject the idea of dhimmi status for non-Muslims?”

    I’m glad you say that.

    This is about Muslims in the West, you should know that I have been born and raised in the West, the last time I was in an Islamic country was……about 15 years….

    Of course I support equal rights for Non-Muslims in Muslim countries.

  36. says

    ia, when do you think there will be a First Baptist Church of Riyad?
    When will a Christian or Jew be allowed in Mecca? (Not that I would ever even want to go there.)

  37. says

    ia786

    Enjoy Islam while you can, because one day Islam won’t exist anymore. Even if it means getting rid of the 1.2 billion people who follow it.

  38. says

    I, for one, do not want to oppress muslims, they are already oppressed enough. I want to suppress islam, the 1,400 year blight on humanity.

    “Believe me, its not an odd thing to say. Islam will enter every place on Earth, that is a Prophecy.” ~ ia786

    And my free will dictates that I debunk and defeat that ‘prophecy’.

    “Of course support equal rights for Non-Muslims in Muslim countries.” ~ ia 786

    Of course you do. But you say that now. . . .

    “And……..I am not Shia, though I do respect all Muslims.” ~ ia786

    Of course you do. But do all muslims respect us?

    “Okay, you are free to say you hate Muslims, even those that practise Islam peacefully, you are free to say you want them thrown out of the west you bigot.” ~ ia786

    Call me a bigot if that’s what it takes to ensure my survival.

    “You however wish to cause as much pain and hardship to Muslims living in the West as possible, pathetic.” ~ ia786

    I guess the phrase ‘quid pro quo’ has never entered into your vocabulary?

    “Your arguments are weak, you seem to think the whole world is deluded, when it is you that is intoxicated on Islamophobia and racism.” ~ ia786

    A made up word [islamophobia] coupled with a fake charge [racism]. Gee, your islamic roots are showing.

    “Okay, you are free to say you hate Muslims, even those that practise Islam peacefully, you are free to say you want them thrown out of the west you bigot.” ~ ia786

    Thank you for your permission, not that I bloody well need it.

    “What the hell has that got to do with terrorism? You don’t like Islam, you don’t have to.” ~ ia786

    You are right, we don’t have to like islam. But we are FORCED to deal with it, since so many in that ‘religion’ cannot clean up their own house.

    “There is alot of discrimination out there against Asians and especially Muslims. Everyone has gone through this. As a Muslim I will do my utmost to ensure I have equal opportunities, if you oppose that and want me to have a lower status in my country then you need you head checked, mate.” ~ ia786

    There’s that ‘quid pro quo’ thingy again.

    BTW, ia786, have you ever told the truth in your life? Not an islamic truth, but a real one? Just curious.

  39. says

    Voltaire,
    I think you’re on to something. This article captured many of my thoughts:

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19388

    “It is completely unimportant that Jihadists or their Moslem sympathizers and apologists “understand” us. What is important is that they be afraid of us. That they have a conviction that if they attack us we will hunt them down and kill them dead. That they know we are the folks that obliterated Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Dresden with no regrets and we will do the same to Mecca and Medina if necessary. That we have nothing but contempt for them and they have no hope of defeating us.”

    Even if it takes 100 million or 2 billion, so be it.

    AMEN
    AMERICA AKBAR, TEXAS AKBAR, TEQUILA AKBAR

  40. says

    ia786. Here is what is taught in every mosque in Europe. You may deny it, but its fact. that is why western people who are brought up with freedom and honest debate hate Islam; they despise it, not the individuals like you; who are unfortunate enough to be born into Muslim families and are brain washed from brith.The man “prophet” Muhammed? I think he is a maniac with an uncontrollable lust for women and young girls. What can one say about a 50+ man who already has numerous wives, then takes fancy to a 6-year old child, marries her, and have sex with her at age nine? In modern times, he’d be guilty of rape. He’d be a convicted pedophile. Yet, over the centuries, millions upon millions of unsuspecting people allow themselves to be conned by this man! Are you idiots or what?
    If the west is is so rotten why may I ask are you all here in the west? Only idiots would stay in a place they think is rotten, unless of course this “rotten west” offers you a better standard of living than your own ancestoral homeland. After all it was the Westerners that Islam seems to hate so much that invented the comforts you enjoy today
    All mosques teach quran to muslim youth and new converts. What may I ask have you to say about these hate filled quotes from you “unholy” book of death.
    Some examples of what they learn from quran:

    Qaran Suras(chapters):
    2:10 Disbelievers (non muslims) are are diseased.
    2:99 Disbelievers are evil people .
    2:171 Disbelievers are deaf, dumb, and blind.
    2:191 Slay disbelievers wherever you find them.
    2:216 Fighting infidels (jihad) is ordained for all muslims whether
    they like it or not.
    9:39 Who ever refuses to fight infidels , there is painful doom for
    him in hereafter.
    3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in
    preference of believers.
    3:73 Don’t believe anyone who is not a Muslim.
    3:48 Don’t be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and
    want to ruin you.
    4:89 Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever
    you find them.
    4:101The non muslims are an open enemy to you.
    4:144 Do not choose disbelievers as friends.
    5:51 Don’t take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then
    Allah will consider you to be one of them.
    5:60 Allah turned unbelievers into apes and swine.
    5:59 Jews and Christians are evil people.
    6:106 Stay away from disbelievers.
    8:55 The worst beasts in Allah’s sight are the disbelievers.
    8:65 Exhort the believers to fight non believers
    9:5 Slay the disbelievers wherever you find them.
    9:14 Fight the disbelievers
    9:28 Disbelievers are unclean.
    9:30 Christians and Jews are perverts. Allah himself fights against
    them.
    9:34 Christians and jews devour the wealth of mankind.
    9:37 They are born losers because Allah does not guides them.
    9:41 Fight for Allah with your wealth and life (donate to jihadis
    and participate in Jihad)
    9:111 Paradise is guarnteed for those who slay and are slain for
    Allah (suicide/9-11 bombers are guaranteed paradise)

  41. says

    ia 786 you said “More than a Billion people find peace and tranquillity in Islam, these people have developed a personal relationship with God and this has benefited them as a human being and all those around them.”

    Tranquility my A–e! Where this billion muslims live are the worst places on earth. There is so much murder and mayham, killing, rape, pedophilia, incent, sodomy, abuse of women like circumcising them against their will, kept at home and not allowed an education, marrying young women to very old men, women are the property of men and they are abused daily, and they have to be covered up from head to toe,no freedom of movement without a male, no voice what so ever, not even the right go to the mosque,
    and you have the gall to use a word like tranquility. Go to karachi or jakarta, you will see just the opposite of tranquility.
    The only Muslims who enjoy freedom are the ones who crept into the western countries. I say “crept” as they all came uninvited.
    If the relationship with God created the conditions in the Muslim countires, then I would say its better for them not to have a relationship with God as thier lives would be very much better away from Islam.
    You are just another apologist for the evil creed Islam.

  42. says

    ia786, this whole debate boils down to a couple basic questions:

    1) Would you like to see “the black flag of Islam flying over Downing street?”

    2) Would you like to see “the government of America be Islamic at some point in the future” and thereby scrap the US Constitution?

    3) Should “the Koran be the highest authority in America and Islam the only accepted religion on earth?”

    Really, these are the issues, in my opinion, and the sooner media types start asking these questions of so-called Islamic leaders, the better. Of course, war is deceit, but this ‘elephant in the room’ seems to be glossed over all the time.

  43. says

    “More than a Billion people find peace and tranquillity in Islam, these people have developed a personal relationship with God and this has benefited them as a human being and all those around them.”

    Doesn`t change the fact that they are satan worshippers. Ali Sina has very succintly put it in writing about `Useful Idiots` (like Jack Straw):

    `It is nothing but insanity to recognize a doctrine that calls you impure, idolater and even pig and orders its follower to slay you as a legitimate religion. Recognizing Islam is accepting your own death warrant. Muhammad said kill the unbelievers. You are an unbeliever. If you recognize Islam, you are agreeing to be killed. Isn’t that stupid?`

    Like DC. Watson I say `go for it`. Let the matters be made public. Let their bloody love all pour out. It is obvious they are on a death wish, and it is up to the non-muslims to help these muslims get to their brothel in the sky at the soonest.
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina50823.htm

  44. says

    IA – Muslims living in the West have a fine old time of it with all the free handouts they get. Isn’t all the free housing, free school meals with halal meat provided on the state, provision of mosques, welfare cheques and the authorities silencing any criticism of your religion through new laws enough for you? The Government’s own figures published this week show that Muslims are three times more likely to be unemployed than any other ethnic minority. Hindu Indians, Sikhs and East Asians are very successful, more successful than white people in many cases, so it’s obviously nothing to do with skin colour or even religion. Muslims have played the victim for too long and people have seen through it.

  45. says

    # times likely to be unemplyed and many times more likely they`ll end up in prison. The welfare system breeds terrorism. Make the parasites work for a living instead of feeding them to come cutthroats.

  46. says

    t most likely will eventually require devastating force and destruction of the islamic centers of power and culture to bring islamic arabs to their senses.
    When finally faced with the possibility that their societies and cultures will be physically annihilated, then they will become rational and peaceful, just as the German and Japanese peoples became peaceful after all out war on them and massive destruction of their countries. The psychopathic islamic terrorists, the lunatic islamic clerics, their supporters, financiers, and sympathyzers must be forced into unconditional surrender or face total devastation.
    That is the only way to deal with the psychopathic islamic/arab scourge facing the world.

    Do count on Musllims behavior as being similar to the Japanese or Germans. Theirs is rage-envy mentality. Rage-envy mentality is self-destructive — they prefer to destroy you, your peace and themselves before allowing you to exist and prosper while they don’t. It’s an either or proposition — Muslims are on top or they destroy.

  47. says

    DC Watson.

    A fine piece Sir, upfront & in their face.

    Lets see if the those brainwashed 7th century retards dare take you to task.

    IA. Do you really think you are helping Muslims in Great Britain by your tone? You must sense the rising anger in the Anglo Saxons around you?
    You must know something of British history & peoples to know exactly what the people around you are capable of, if you push them? Please, do not let the Dhimmi’s in Downing Street or the leader of the Camel Corps Jack Straw fool you or give you false hope – the appeasement will not be tolerated by the real British people for much longer. (By British I mean those that actually align themselves & their loyalty to their nation before that of any 7th century suicide death cult)

    Just like your little rants against the special relationship that the UK & USA share – you show how little you know about the country you live in. Our two countries & peoples will be allies when Islam is tamed & neutered – & those two things will come to pass. It has to for us, because it will soon be seen as a matter of survival for us, our great history & proud heritage. You see, the evidence to support Princess Tony’s assertion that “Islam is a religion of peace” just isn’t there – & sites like this (which I discovered after your fellow “British” Muslims butchered 52 people in London) are spreading the truth like wildfire.

    The false sense of security you have been given by the weakness & appeasement of New Labour is no reason for you to believe that you are winning this war. Its about the people, stupid.
    They are your real worry.

    All debts will be paid IA, & you must be aware of the coming conflict on Englands streets?

    You cannot be that naive.

    As it says in the song:

    “Rule Brittania – England never, never, never shall be slaves”……….Bring it.

  48. says

    Well this is ironic. Here we have ia786 endorsing equal rights for all, and the so-called anti-jihadists are preaching ethnic cleansing, world war and even genocide.

    ia, we both support equality. There are many Muslims who do not believe this, who think that the government must rule according to Islam and that non-Muslims should have inferior dhimmi status. How would you convince them to share your view that all people should have equal rights?

  49. says

    Another fine piece of direct talk by DC Watson.
    CAIR is self destructing by the process of increasing name recognition. That is, the more widespread that CAIRs name and activities are known, the less credibility it will have.
    DC has CAIR in a figure four leglock, struggle, whine and cry, shout and curse, there is no way out of it but to holler “UNCLE”. Of course, CAIR is as slippery as a greased pig. Its participants went to Vasoline College, they slid in and they slipped out. Grease or not, CAIR cant defeat DC because DC is armed with the truth and CAIR is armed with unadulterated BS. CAIR will most likely not win its lawsuit against ANTI-CAIR for the same reason, they have opened themselves up to inquiry and discovery.
    The truth is the best solvent known for Islamic BS, CAIR or otherwise. It wears away the outer fabric of respectability and exposes the beast for what it is.
    Squeeze those legs just a little harder, DC, CAIR is not grunting loud enough…

  50. says

    Well done DC your my kinda guy !!

    They have forgotten that the people of the US and
    UK where the ones that fought the great wars when most of Europe was in servitude to the Nazis

    Woe betide them if they awaken the sleeping dragons of the west…
    We are slow to rise and will never ever give our fealty and freedom to this Slavery called Islam.

    As for Cair ….I care not !!

  51. says

    Good job DC.

    Note to all…

    The newest argument in the taqqiyya tactics of islamists…

    When confronted with text of cited quran and sura, muslims are NOW saying that most muslims don’t follow the hadiths, etc.

    I’ve also been told by one particularly obnoxious islamist that the quran has been distorted and the troublesome passages in quran and hadith were written by “hate-filled” Christians.

    Just for your information.

  52. says

    ia786, this whole debate boils down to a couple basic questions:

    1) Would you like to see “the black flag of Islam flying over Downing street?”

    No, I wouldn’t. I don’t support Islam being imposed on anyone. If someone wishes to embrace Islam, so be it. That would make me happy. Islam is for all mankind, not just Asian or brown people.

    No how can you tell someone is Muslim, eh????

    If I was to pass you in the street how would you know I am Muslim. I don’t have a beard, how would you know. That is it, if someone white accepts Islam you wouldn’t necessary know, it wouldn’t effect you in anyway.

    “2) Would you like to see “the government of America be Islamic at some point in the future” and thereby scrap the US Constitution?”

    As I said I don’t support Islam being imposed on people. The Government has to represent the people, if the people want it (Islamic Government) then why would I complain. I would be happy but it the Americans people choice at the end of the day. What about a Jewish Government, again it would be the choice of the American people, if they want it, it has nothing to do with me. Since I happen to be Muslim, I would be happy to see an Islamic leadership if the American people wanted it. If they didn’t want it, then of course I would oppose implementing it.

    “3) Should “the Koran be the highest authority in America and Islam the only accepted religion on earth?”

    To begin with I am no scholar, I don’t about the authority thing, as I said before I would never support Islam being imposed on anyone. That is something I cannot do. If people don’t want it, then they don’t want it, its as simple as that.

    I do believe that Islam is the religion for me, through Islam I think I have become a better person and that I have been brought closer to God. I believe that people should be allowed to worship as they want. That means all Muslims (sufi, Shia) and all Non-Muslims. There are endless ways of worshipping and becoming closer to God as stated by Prophet Muhammad.

  53. says

    “Doesn`t change the fact that they are satan worshippers. Ali Sina has very succintly put it in writing about `Useful Idiots` (like Jack Straw):”

    That doesn’t mean a thing. You can call be a devil worshipper, moon good worshipper or whatever. So what!!!….Do you think I care?

    What does that change?

  54. says

    “The remaining 200 million are the sons of Allah, such as yourself.
    You don’t want to fight, right? At least that’s what you say…”

    Fight for what you idiot?

    I am living a peaceful life in the UK, its your type that are causing problems.

    Do something useful.

    Go watch some paint dry.

  55. says

    “Muslims living in the West have a fine old time of it with all the free handouts they get.”

    Stating you’re Muslim doesn’t automatically entitle you to benefit.

    “Isn’t all the free housing, free school meals with halal meat provided on the state”

    Its all fine when these things are given to Christians or whatever, when its Muslims you call it jizya or whatever it is.

    Free school meals are given to those with a low income, you complain alot, have you got any suggestions.

  56. says

    Do something useful.

    Go watch some paint dry.

    Posted by: ia786 at September 9, 2005 10:54 AM

    Oh, you mean they’ve started painting the interior walls of the Tube in London already after Muslims killed 52 innocent people? Is that the paint you want everyone to watch dry, wanker?

  57. says

    “Do you really think you are helping Muslims in Great Britain by your tone? You must sense the rising anger in the Anglo Saxons around you?”

    No I haven’t. Which planet are you living on mate?

    “You must know something of British history & peoples to know exactly what the people around you are capable of, if you push them?”

    Tell me, what the hell are you talking about? Do you ever leave your house? If I push them, what are you talking about, I seriously want to know.

    “All debts will be paid IA, & you must be aware of the coming conflict on Englands streets?”

    Tell me, you seem to be living on another planet.

  58. says

    “Enjoy Islam while you can, because one day Islam won’t exist anymore. Even if it means getting rid of the 1.2 billion people who follow it.”

    I am disappointed with your comments Voltaire. (You’re British right?)

    Fanatical death worshippers such as yourself need to calm down, you need to wipe out all that built up racism and prejudice. So you would support killing 1.2 Billion people just so Islam won’t exist. You would kill 1.2 Billion, just for that? Have you got a conscience?

    I am disappointed. I’m sure you are a good person and are just angry or something. What you mentioned is a great evil. Can you not see that?

    Let me tell you an important story. During the time of Noah, God had told him to build his ark and make sure his followers were with him when the rain started to fall. There was this old lady, she believed in Noah as a Prophet of God and accepted his message. She told Noah to call her when the time comes. When the rain began to fall, Noah gathered his followers and they went into the Ark. The flood destroyed everything. After some time when the flood had subsided, Noah remembered the old lady, he had forgotten to bring her on to the Ark. He went to the old woman’s house and found that it was intact, there was no damage!!!

    As he called the old woman, she came out and thought the time for the flood had arrived. Surprised, Noah told her that the flood had come and gone!!!

    God had in fact sent Angels to protect the woman and her house. That woman had put her trust in God and his Prophet, that was the end of it.

    You people can plot, I will continue doing by utmost to be a good human being, I will put my trust in God, that is enough for me.

  59. says

    IA, if the truth about Islam being told bothers you so greatly, why do you linger, mate?

    Your rhetoric is useless. Stop being such a fly in the soup and buzz away.

  60. says

    ia786,

    Thanks for the answers. I don’t wish to insult you but I think your level of commitment to Islam differs greatly from those who are “devout” for several reasons. Your statement that ” That is it, if someone white accepts Islam you wouldn’t necessary know, it wouldn’t effect you in anyway.” I would have to say that if you are converted to a religion and it produces no external changes, you didn’t really convert.

    It depends on a person’s level of commitment to Islam and the Koran. A fundamentalist Muslim is a very dangerous person you would have to agree. Your commitment to the literal interpretation of the Koran is the difference.

    The anger and frustration that people are expressing when they say foolish things like all Muslims should be killed, is due to the confusion and contradiction they find within the Islamic world.

    Are you verbal in your mosque about your opposition to jihadism?

    I believe that all people of all schools of thought, the religious and the non-religious alike can exist side by side and compliment one another to create a better society. However, the exclusive and elitist ideologies that permeate human thought are great obstacles to this cooperation amongst different peoples.

    My problem, and I imagine the problem of most here, with is Islam is what its holy book literally says and how those who practice its instructions consistently deny others basic human rights and exhibit elitist and misogamist behavior.

  61. says

    No matter how you cut it, to be a muslim means you must take the word of a child molesting criminal as gospel. You must accept his word that Allah spoke to him. You must believe in Islam who’s foundations are built on sand and its structure a house of cards. You must accept slavery (Abdallah) as a yoke around your neck, and sharia law and its enforcers to keep you in line. You must participate in jihad as an ‘obligation’.
    Why does anyone have to do all that to believe in God and have a slendid relationship with him/her/it? The idea that self abuse gets you closer to God, is demented. Willing participation in Islam is a form of self abuse that debases manhood, scrambles the marbles and otherwise impairs thinking abilities.
    It causes psychotic episodes in believers. This is not a good path, but trillions (by muslim count) of humans are on it…but Allah is kind, merciful and oft forgiving , so at least a few of those trillions will find their way to Allahs Paradise Hotel, Brothel and Barber Shop…

  62. says

    You must accept his word that Allah spoke to him

    This is why I could never be a Muslim. There is nothing about Muhammad or his revelation that would lead me to believe it is of a “divine nature.”

    The Koran and its accompanying writings are the products of human minds soley. They expose the ideology of a desert warlord who used the superstitious beliefs of his peers to manipulate them to his advantage, nothing more.

    The terrible fact is that by his conduct Muhammad was clearly a despicable human being, certainly not worthy of the attention that has been given to him.

    Cast off the chains of superstitious and supernatural belief systems and think for yourself.

    Remove the authority of a diety’s prophet from Muhammad and all you have is a hateful elitist ideology used to enslave followers.

  63. says

    if need be, get tough with them. At a Saturday morning seminar attended by more than 200 people, the discussion included how to apply pressure on politicians who smear the faith, the benefits of corporate boycotts and what constitutes legal grounds for defamation suits.

    To the radical Muslims only who want to steal our freedom.
    Get tough with them- hmmm
    I have read their literature and they in turn criticize other faiths so what gives them the right to be off limits. I suppose groups like CAIR would like to make it a hate crime to criticize them like it is in Austalia or Canada with the radical gays. We have very few Muslims in my area and frankly I don’t miss them here.
    Like our founding fathers any attempt to take away our right to criticize any religion or belief system should be fought. Will this happen in America and how soon? Like my ancestors who fought in the American revolution we should stand up to any attempt to remove this freedom. Why is Islam above other religions or philosophy in America?
    Remember the words of Patrick Henry
    “Give me liberty or give me death….”

  64. says

    “How do you figure that anyone wants to cause hardship and pain?”

    By reading the material posted on JW/DW.

    “Are you that sick?”

    It is your ilk that are sick.

    “This is a free speech issue, mate. What arguments in this article are are weak, you shonk?”

    You sound like you are in Australia! Nobody is talking about hate here but if telling the truth is hateful then too bad. You do not understand our consitution and the right to criticize any belief system of philosophy. I have the right to criticize Christians, Mormons and communist as well but telling the truth is not hate. What is 10% of a billion? That is more than just a few radicals so get real.
    If Muslims move here then in a free society they will face criticism. When in Rome do as the Romans do!!! If they do not like it then they should go home.
    I would agree that any violent act or thought towards any religion or belief system to wrong and I will support you there. I also believe in freedom of religion and if someone wants to be a Muslim that is their choice, as long as they do not threaten non- Muslims freedoms.
    I will never back down here and become a dhimmi!!!

  65. says

    ia786,

    I’m not sure where you got that story about Noah and an old woman, but I wanted to make the point that that story does NOT come from the Bible.According to the Bible only Noah and his wife, Noah’s three sons and their three wives survived the flood.The whole point of the story of Noah is that the way to salvation was only through the ark. Noah preached to the people of that era and ask them to join he and his family in the ark, since anyone who was not in the ark faced certain destruction.It required an act of faith for people to join Noah in the ark.Unfortunately, the people of that day had no faith in God or in Noah, failed to enter the ark and all were destroyed.There is nothing in the Bible about an old woman who’s home somehow survived the flood.

  66. says

    Its all fine when these things are given to Christians or whatever, when its Muslims you call it jizya or whatever it is.

    Not quite. It’s all fine when taxes are levied equally on all people regardless of their religion. No right thinking society will accept a special humiliation tax for non-Muslims.

  67. says

    ia – your version of noah and the ark is counterfeit. the true story is to be found in genesis

    albion – the song says “britons never shall be slaves”, not “england never shall be slaves”

    incidentally there is an article on tariq ramadan in in this weeks edition of one of the rags i subscribe to, the new statesman

    in it, ramadan is quoted as saying

    “we can start, as muslims, by starting to “disislamise” social problems such as unemployment and education. also muslims are too obsessed with international issues – with muslims always being beaten or humiliated. we need to return to domestic issues, questions of citizenship and so on”

    it seems that if he is guilty of the “double discours” he is certainly being accused of in france, that it is getting very “double” indeed in the uk

    btw has anyone actually been kicked out of the uk yet? or are all of bliars threats just a load of blethers?

  68. says

    What a relief to find some people who seem to have educated themselves about islam, rather than blindly accepting the appeasing, P.C. party line that it is a “peaceful religion, hijacked by a few extremists.” Islam is a scourge on humanity and always has been. Its followers are stuck in the 7th century, following a child-molesting false prophet and his band of murderers, thugs, and rapists. And now they are filled with the rage and shame that the rest of the world has advanced so far, while they are stuck in the armpit of the world where nothing grows and life is cheap, all despite Allah’s promises that they were his favorite people. In their arrogance, they fully expect the entire world (which already has numerous viable peoples and religions that outnumber them 6 to 1 in population and many times that in economic, technological, and military power) to bend to their will. They are very self-important for a people that has yet to discover toilet paper, and whose only use in the modern world is to sell black stuff that comes out of the ground. Sorry to be a bit off topic, but it is my first post. By the way, I love the UK and Australian idioms, I can almost hear them out loud.

  69. says

    I’m not sure how to begin a thread, but I just got this from the BBC News Site:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4239358.stm

    George Bush and the “right-wing neo-con establishment” have promoted a “clash of civilisations” between Muslims and the West, Ken Livingstone has said.

    The London mayor made the remarks at a TUC fringe meeting in which he called for vigilance against a growing threat from the British National Party.

    He warned that if certain ideas were allowed to grow in a society, such as that a clash of civilisations was inevitable, then groups such as the BNP were able to exploit the situation.

    Ken Livingstone has been a critic of the Iraq war

    The BNP was in a similar position to France’s Jean-Marie Le Pen’s National Front 20 years ago, he said.

    Le Pen pushed the socialist hopeful into third in presidential polls.

    “Once they get to that point they remain a constant threat,” he told a Unite Against Fascism meeting in Brighton.

    Exploit

    But it is Mr Livingstone’s comments about US foreign policy which are likely to be seen as the most controversial.

    The US president is a close ally of UK premier Tony Blair, and the Labour mayor has been a vocal opponent of Britain’s involvement in the war in Iraq.

    The mayor also said that it was important to tackle any progress by the BNP who, he claimed, would exploit any opportunity to promote themselves.

    In the past the far-right in Britain had focused on Jewish people, then on black people, and now Muslims were their target, he said.

    ‘Mutual respect’

    Unions and government all had a role in tackling racism, he added.

    And he gave the example of the London Fire Brigade in the early 1980s when he was leader of the GLC.

    Then there were 7,000 firefighters, only seven of whom were black, he said, but the Fire Brigades’ Union and others worked to tackle that issue.

    Holding London up as a beacon of how racism could be taken on and how different races could live in harmony, he said: “You have to have mutual respect.”

    And here is my email to The Hon. Mr Livingstone:

    Mr Livingstone,

    While I have no sympathy for the BNP and very little for M. Le Pen’s Front National, I have to wonder at your intelligence in stating, according to the BBC News, ‘George Bush and the “right-wing neo-con establishment” have promoted a “clash of civilisations” between Muslims and the West’.

    It is very difficult to promote a “clash of civilisations” between the West and a religion/ideolgy/weltanschauung which has been dedicated to the destruction of our civilisation for 1383 (Gregorian) years.

    I was not at all surprised when the storm troopers of Islam, al Qaeda, struck on 11 September. They were simply exacting revenge for the frustration of their plans to conquer Europe by the lifting of the Siege of Vienna by HM the King of Poland, Jan Sobieski and HRH Francois de Lorraine on that date in 1683.

    Their imams, in sermons dedicating mosques in the heartland of the West have made it clear that their ultimate aim is the destruction of Western civilsation and its incorporation into world wide Islam.

    The British (and the Americans) have never suffered under the Islamic/Saracen/Moorish/and YES! Turkish yoke as have most, if not all of Southern and Eastern Europe or been attacked at their heart as have the Austrians and the French. This good fortune in no way excuses the abysmal ignorance of history that you and others, like your fellow Party member at the FO, the Hon. Mr Straw display.

    Come off it, Ken! Are you so spineless that you want to see Britain become part of “world wide Islam” or have you secretly converted and are afraid of what it might do to your political career?

    Jovan Weismiller

  70. says

    Sorry to clutter up the board, but I thought some people might be interested in my eMail to the Rt Ho. Jack Straw. here it is:

    Mr Straw,

    I am appalled at your insistence that Turkey be allowed to to join the EU. As a much younger man (I am of an age with you), I had friends whose parents and or grandparents had been killed by the Turks for the “crime” of Christianity. I had a dear friend whose grandparents had managed to escape the Armenian genocide unlike the 10 million
    Christians who “died of famine and disease” whilst the Turks were well fed and healthy.

    Within our lifetime (in 1956), Sir, over half the Christians in Istanbul were killed and three quarters of the Christian Churches burned, with the Army standing guard to prevent the Fire Brigades from reaching them. To this day I have friends whose mothers, wives, sisters and daughters were brutally raped and murdered on the Island of Cyprus by the Turks. And these last two incidents, I would point out were perpetrated by the “enlightened, secular” Turkey which you
    propose to bring into the European Union!

    The British (and the Americans) have never suffered under the Islamic/Saracen/Moorish/and YES! Turkish yoke as have most, if not all
    of Southern and Eastern Europe or been attacked at their heart as have the Austrians and the French. This good fortune in no way excuses the abysmal ignorance of history that you and others, like your fellow Party member Mr Livingstone, display.

    My Grandfather, Charles Albert Oxley, fought them in “Mesopotamia”, now Iraq, with Gen. Allenby in the Great War. It is in his name and the name of all those who fought, suffered and died defending the West from the early eighth century through that war, as well as in the name of the martyrs of New York, Madrid and London, that I appeal to you to show some backbone!

    My God!, man, the Turks are Muslim and Islam is a
    religion/ideolgy/weltanschauung which has been dedicated to the destruction of our civilisation for 1383 (Gregorian) years. Do you really want to see Europe become part of “world wide Islam” or have you secretly converted and become a Quisling?

    Yours,

    Jovan Weismiller