Dimwitted dhimmitude and moral equivalence from Red Ken. From the TimesOnline, with thanks to Jeremy:
KEN LIVINGSTONE provoked outrage yesterday when he compared an outspoken Muslim scholar who backs suicide bombings to the reforming Pope John XXIII.The Mayor of London said that the position of Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi was similar to that of the late Pope because he was the most senior Islamic scholar saying that Islam must engage with the world.
“Sheik Qaradawi is I think very similar to the position of Pope John XXIII. An absolutely sane Islamist,” Mr Livingstone said.
He said that Sheik Qaradawi was a leading Islamic scholar calling for Islam to engage with the world, supporting democracy in the Middle East and calling for Islam to accept the changing role of women. “Of all the Muslim thinkers in the world today he is the most positive force for change,” he said.
Al-Qaradawi condemned the terrorist attacks in London but he has described suicide bombings in Israel as martyrdom operations. He has also been criticised by Jewish and gay rights groups who accused him of anti-Semitism and homophobia.
Will someone please put this Livingstone mook in the dumpster already? What he needs is a Whirly in the loo.....
Absolutely incredible.
How can "Red Ken" be soooo duped by this 7th Century fascist?
How can "Red Ken", he of the GLC Socialist Republic Fame, actually side with THE leading fascist homophobe in the Islamic world?
Is the pink pound sooo irrelevant in Londonistan now that our esteemed Mayor can afford to turn his back (errr, shall I re-phrase?) on his former Cause Celeb of Gay Rights?
I have no time & sympathy really for any organised religion - sorry, I know lots of decent DW / JW subscribers do & I dig quite a few of you for sure(FF totally excluded - Troll, I am sure), but comparing this evil, vicious, murderous, women hating, queer bating, fascist fantasist to any Catholic Pope is an outrage of the highest order.
All British citizens here at DW / JW - write to Clown Prince Clarke. This merchant of death is not getting a Visa to MY country without a fight.
Aaaaah, Red Ken (or aybe we should call hime Green Ken nowadays). Its been almsot fun watching him, over the last months, trying to square immpossible circles, spinning like a top to try and reconcile his 'multiculturalist' love of Qaradawi with his position as mayor of a city bombed and terrorised by those that Qaradawi considers martyrs.
Red Ken, the first in line for the Gay Pride march, and his good friend, who thinks they should be stoned to death. Ken seems unable to see beyond the cloying fog of multiculturalism which he and his like have spread over the land, can't admit that, in spite of the abundant evidence, his good friend is also a good friend of terrorists everywhere. Because of course, in our cosy little multicultural universe, we mustnt judge these primitives by the standards we expect of others.
Because, Ken, you cannot ethically make distinctions between people who blow themselves up in cafe's in tel aviv and those who do it on tube trains in your city. Or perhaps, like some on the left, you secretly, in a quiet place in your soul that you dont let anyone else see, secretly you let out a little cheer when those bombs go off in tel aviv and jerusalem.
>...All British citizens here at DW / JW - write to Clown Prince Clark
Spot on, albion, although I think possibly dierect action and some very big demonstrations against him would make more impact - didnt I read the other week, that the Home Office has decided to give him a visa anyway?
I can't make up my mind about Red Ken. Gruesome Georgie Galloway is a secret convert, I am sure of it and for reasons I have posted here several times.
But Ken? I don't think he is a convert....But what have they got on him?
Are they holding his favourite pet newt hostage?
Or does he owe some Saudi prince more backsheesh than he can ever repay?
Or have they photos of him in a compromising position? In these days what could possibly compromise him?
I didn't vote for him but I still pay his wages.
I want to know.
Well, Karl Lueger was the mayor of Vienna.
One doubts that this Lord Mayor of Old Londinium can be bottled up again, now that it is flowing thixotropically. The Lord High Shampoo must be quickly rinsed off, lest the unnatural ingredients seep below the epidermal surface and permanently affect the workings of the brain beneath. Obviously, a product that should not be tested on animals -- or men.
> I want to know.
He's an old school lefty at heart is whats wrong with him - there's a knee-jerk reaction amongst this type of person that goes, 'anything supported by the US is necessarily bad, Israel is supported by the US, therefore Israel is bad, therefore, I must support the 'Palestinians'. Therefore, the likes of Qaradawi are to be 'understood' when he supports bombings in Israel (just so long as we get him to make some generalized remarks against doing it here, thankyouverymuch).
All of this goes against any logic or reason, but it is absolutley ingrained in the leftist from very ealry in yout leftist career.
Alternatively, you could look at this way - he's a prize arse
Abraham Lincoln once stated that you could not raise one man up by pulling another man down.
Mr. Livingstone has tried to do this by his totally outrageous comparison between Qaradawi and Pope John XXIII, thus proving himself to be no Abraham Lincoln.
...Just in case there were any doubts.
Ken Livingstone - stupid, stupid man.
My first reaction to reading this comparison was this: The guy's a fool. However, when I thought about him and his utterances a little more, I began to realise that his foolishness is born out of his childishness! For truly only a person with an infantile outlook on life could come out with the things he comes out with. This one comparing this Pope - any pope - with Qaradawi has got to be lacking in maturity. He has also got to be lacking in:
*Judgment
*Perspective
*Knowledge of Islam
*Knowledge of the dangers Islam poses the West (and much else besides!)
This stupid, idiotic man needs to get a grip on himself and on world affairs!
Ken and his ilk are fascists. When you get that far left, you have left the realm of democratic socialism and strayed into the realm of tyranny and despotism. A decent human being would have nothing to do with Qaradawi who is an obvious islamofascist. Ken is the same as Galloway, a grade "A" arsehole. Come on London, vote the arsehole out. Don't let us down.
Alternatively, you could look at this way - he's a prize arse
Well said!
I don't think Ken's yet in the same category as Galloway, but it's the usual thing of selling women's rights and gay rights down the river in the name of multiculturalism. Not to mention Israeli rights.
He said on the radio that Qaradawi was doing a lot to advance the role of women. Well I heard that he said it was OK for female suicide bombers to remove their hijab so as to blend in. Talk about shattering the glass ceiling. Or any other kind of ceiling, when you think about it.
Today's new word - new to me anyway - 'thixotropically' - thanks Hugh - had to look it up. Apparently it's a liquid that gets less viscous when you shake it up. Like tomato ketchup. Given Ken's faux Pearly King Persona, this calls for a reminder of the old (or not so old) Cockney rhyme on the subject of ketchup and glottal stops:
Shake the bo'll, shake the bo'll
None 'll come and then a lo 'll.
Absolutely sane Islamist=jumbo shrimp
>
Swap the words "engage with" for "rule", and you've got what al-Qaradawi really means.
Granny:
When are the next mayoral elections in London? What are the chances of someone successfully opposing Kenny?
As for Galloway, tonight Grizzly George is set to debate Christopher Hitchins in New York City. If you go to Hitchins's web site, you may possibly be access live audio of the event.
http://www.hitchensweb.com/
I sure hope Chris is in good form and gives the sleazeball the thorough drubbing he deserves. I understand he really mopped the floor with Michael Moore at the Teluride film festival.
Next election 2008. Every 4 years.
The candidates for the election last year were bizaare. As well as Red Ken (who had the advantage of being a genuine Londoner, albeit, as Interested so accurately phrased it a faux Pearly King ) there was a tory notorious even by tory standards as a womaniser, a groupie of Gruesome Georgie for his respect party and some independents, some sincere and some complete moonbats. I managed to find an independent who I believed to be sincere but whose name I have now forgotten.
I have looked at the site and know where to click to hear the debate. All I have to do is work out what time 7pm in New York is here. And hope I can stay up that long. I see that Christopher Hitchins copies my epithet for Georgie and also describes him as gruesome. Great minds. Thanks for that link.
Pope John 23rd wanted aggiornamento [updating or modernization] for the Church. This included reconciliation or rapprochement with the Jews and trying to work for world peace in his way. Qaradawi is most certainly unlike John in these ways. He wants to kill Jews and indeed incites war, jihad.
I am surprised that leading members of the Labor and Conservative and Liberals parties seem to have nothing to say in criticism of him. Where's Blair? Isn't it important for him to encourage civil relations between the various ethnic and religious groups in his country?
Livingstone is truly incredible. Anyone who thinks that befriending Qaradawi doesn't mean encouraging terrorism in Britain itself is a fool.
Granny - is that 11 oclock here? - incidentally were you saying that george galloway was a secret convert to islam earlier? i recall someone saying this before, but he has a 5page interview in third way this month in whichhes still proclaiming himself a cultural catholic. he also opposed abortion all his life, something i didnt know about him
should be a cracking debate, plenty of fireworks
I am aware of Gruesome Georgie's Roman Catholic roots. My theory about his conversion to Islam is based on his marriage to a Palestinian woman (I forget her name, others here will supply it) who is a niece of Yasser Arafat and thus a kinswoman of Al Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem and henchman of the Nazis. We know that Moslem women may only marry Moslem men. I believe that there is no way, not even in the cause of jihad and winning Bethnal Green, that a daughter of such a prominent Moslem family would have been allowed to marry an infidel.
freddie:
While I expect Galloway to be very theatrical, I don't know if it actually will be a "debate" in the usual meaning of the word.
If past performance is any indicator, Galloway is likely to evade direct questions by simply resorting to insults, as he did a few months ago when Hitchens confronted him at the Senate hearings into Oil-for-Food on some of Galloway's claims over Galloway's claim to have written several letters demanding a hearing.
If you have the time, check out Hitchens's website and read some of his articles as well as the stuff about Galloway. Agree with Hitchens or not, he's a great thinker and writer.
wow i think youre right
This time Livingstone makes a point, though he probably didn't meant it that way. A small likening is both Pope John II and sheik Qaradawi didn’t do a thing to stop Islamic extremism. But of course the last pope did it because he was a dhimmi and Qaradawi did it because he is a fundamentalist.
Comparing John XXIII and this islamist is insultating, IMO, like forever, left so relativistic and foolish,aggg
More desperation from Champagne socialist cliques. Livingstone clearly has no understanding of our own culture and the intellectual strides (and retaking previously trodden paths) taken over the past fifteen centuries. This is the clear divide between true intellectuals or scholars and the demented left. Those of us who wish "not to guess and divine, but to discover and know, who propose not to devise mimic and fabulous worlds of their own..."
It's over for them. The dream of replacing our world built largely on logic and critical analysis with their demented left wing utopia is falling apart and they are taking our world with them, but they just can't let go. No intellectual anchor, nothing just guess and mimic. They just can't admit that everything that they have held to be true, everything thing that they have stood for and held so dear has been shown to be the product of self loathing and the associated convoluted thinking. It's just too horrible for them, to recognise that our civlisation is better in every respect, factually, intellectually and morally than the one which they devise, not just the barbarism we face.
Livingstone will not go to the "facts themsleves for everything" - this 'Dick' will not turn.
JV
the debate can also be seen on CSPAN2
sept 17 at 9pm
sun the 18th 12pm
and mon 19th at 5;30 a.m. not sure if those are
est or not
checked..those are EST
Northiad:
I think you are confusing the recently deceased John Paul II with John XXIII who was pope for a few years in the early 1960s. John XXIII was the sponsor of Vatican II. During the second world war, he actively tried to save Jews and, of course, Vatican II radically changed the relationship between the Catholic Church and the Jews in a positive way. That is what makes it particularly insulting that Livingstone would dare liken Qaradawi to John XXIII. Qaradawi has been criticized by Muslim progressives as a very rich, vile hypocrite who urged other peoples' children to go off to jihad in Iraq while he sends his own six children to universities in the US and the UK (no doubt to make dawa as well as safely secure post secondary educations).
PS: did anyone take in the Hitchens-Galloway debate? I was in transit at the time. I will monitor the Hitchens site for a transcript and post the link when it becomes available.
Waterdragon
Its nearly half past 2 in the morning and I am still listening.
Hitchens has wiped the floor with him. Gruesome Georgie has practically asked to finish early. it will be on the BBC this morning programme but I doubt I will be awake that early. except I have to get my sprog off to school. I'm too old for late nights.
He's just called Hitchins a popinjay again! I do like that word.
waterdragon52: "PS: did anyone take in the
Hitchens-Galloway debate?"
Yes, I did. $14 well spent.
"Ken and his ilk are fascists. When you get that far left..."
The center Left has been getting that far left for several years now. It is now a common sentiment among garden-variety, pleasant, non-professional Leftists that the West is essentially evil and is the main agent causing suffering throughout the world now, and throughout history. And that, of course, Islam is a "religion of peace".
@ waterdragon52: ah, okay, it is another pope. In that case Livingstone indeed proves once again to be the sodding anti-Semite bastard he normally is.
>...He's just called Hitchins a popinjay again!
And Gallawi is a mountebank of the lowest order...
The Times report on last nights debate
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-1781608,00.html
Funny how the impression from what you hear on Radio don't always match the perception of another person who sees the protagonists.
I could only hear Hitchens clear voice, reasoned arguements and hint of humour. I could only hear Gruesome Georgies hectoring tones and bombast.
I was unable to see that Hitchens was scruffy and sweating while Gruesome was "inexplicably tanned and looking worthy of the nickname "Gorgeous George" in a well-pressed biege suit," I'm sure there are several explanations for the tan however. a session at Madam Fifis tanning parlour, a lounger at his villa in Portugal or his tour hotel, a shower of St Tropez from the current dizzy secretary would all have the required effect.
I thought Hitchens won the arguement, possibly because he actually had an arguement.
And what did upset me, a little, is that when Galloway launched into his bleeding heart rant on the young men and women killed in the armed services, including Casey Sheehan, he never once acknowledged that they included his own countrymen, including men from Scotland and London. http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/casualties.htmI appreciate that he was speaking to a US audience but the omission was boorish.
Islam needs to engage with the world? Oh, what insight, pass me the smelling salts someone. It's so true about the left in this country, anything American must be bad. Personally I'm glad I learned Russian by choice but pointing that out got me chucked from the Labour Party at university 20 years ago :-)
That link to MOD won't work. It should be
http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/casualties.htm
Granny:
If you go to the Hitchens site and read the article he wrote for Slate prior to the debate, Hitchens explains what "popinjay" means -- a target for attack.
Of course Hitchens didn't show up looking like a pimp, but rather the rumpled academic who teaches and writes for a living. As for George's style, he reminds me of a certain lawyer I came up against in an Ontario Municipal Board hearing on the approval of a gravel pit in a very scenic part of the province, representing the pit operator of course. The rules of procedure gave him last word, and he got up on his hind legs and let go, but as I listened, I heard only derision and no substantive argument against the opponents' case (which I helped to lay out). At one point he attempted to dismiss one of our points by saying that if such-and-such was so, well, he must be losing it. I was sitting only a bit behind him and to the side and said, just loud enough for him to hear, "Yeah, but that's beside the point." That shut the SOB up for the better part of a minute. The panel hearing the case was startled at the sudden silence. After, the lawyer representing our side told me I was doubtless the most effective heckler he'd ever run into. And that's the type of "debater" George is, a bag of wind that can actually be easily deflated. Only the diehard anti-regime change types that dominate the media could fail to appreciate that.
Anyway I'll have to check out the Times article later and, of course the Hitchens site for the transcript, which I am sure will be provided as soon as it is made available. I will also look for Melanie Phillips to comment, if she does, as she might be so inclined and, again, provide links on a DW thread.
How long will it be before England tires of this boorish lout with a tent flap for a mouth?
SFC MAC:
Which one... ...Livingstone, Gallawi or Qaradawi?
Dr. Pepper:
Geo Orwell wrote in 1943 that pacifism was objectively Fascism.