More tolerance in Pakistan, as 22 religious organizations have called for the execution of Younis Masih, a 40 year old Christian who was jailed after allegedly making derogatory remarks about the Prophet Muhammad, per Pakistan's Daily Times:
Difa-e-Islam Mahaz (Front for Islam’s defence), an alliance of 22 Sunni religious organisations, demanded that alleged blasphemer Younis Masih be given the death sentence.Dozens of Mahaz activists and Kainchi Amer Sidhu residents staged a peaceful demonstration outside the Lahore Press Club on Monday and displayed placards with slogans ‘Hang the blasphemer’, ‘Blasphemer of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) must be hanged immediately’ and ‘We are ready to sacrifice everything for the defence and protection of the Holy Prophet’s (PBUH) dignity’.
Mahaz speakers opposed the recent amendment made in the Criminal Procedural Code of the Pakistan Penal Code (PPC) that a superintendent of police must investigate the blasphemy case before lodging the first information report. They declared the amendment “anti-Islamic” and demanded the restoration of the original procedure for registering blasphemy cases.
They said that they would continue their struggle till Masih was sentenced to death.
However, so as not to let anyone think that were being anti-Christian, the coalition had the following to say:
“The Mahaz is not against the Christian community but want to punish the culprit. We are also ready to lodge a blasphemy case against any Muslim who commits blasphemy against Christ or his mother Mariam (AS),” said Mahaz speaker Irfan Shah.
Now that's a relief.
"We are also ready to lodge a blasphemy case against any Muslim who commits blasphemy against Christ or his mother Mariam (AS),”
Er...blaspheming against the Christian interpretation of Christ (saying that he wasn't God) - wouldn't that be the point of the shahada? That Christ wasn't God?
Ahhhhh, wait - they're 'ready to lodge a blasphemy case' against those who contradict the MUSLIM interpretation of Christ, which, of course, is blasphemy for Christians. So Christians would be protected so long as they accepted the Muslim version of Christ - which, incidentally, is the whole raison d'etre of islam anyway.
/sarc
Good to know that tolerance is founded on such a strong legal and logical footing in islam. And who says that Christianity can't coexist in a Muslim-majority country?
/sarc off
Prophet Geoff
BBUH
I have not followed this case very closely but I hope someone who has can answer a couple of questions for me. Are groups such as the World Council of Churches, the Anglican Church, or others who are so relentlessly critical of Israel doing anything to try and save this man's life? Are they challenging Pakistan's blasphemy law as a violation of human rights? Has Amnesty International tried to intervene on his behalf? Has Condoleeza Rice or Karen Hughes brought this up during their conversations with Pakistani officials? I'd appreciate any information.
And Jesus would just love that, don't you think? "Say a bad word about me and die!" I can see him now slapping these Pakistani religo-cops on the back, "Thanks for sticking up for me boys. I owe you one."
And what is behind this madness? The absolute difference between Mohammad and Christ as moral examples and Muslim ignorance regarding Christ's teachings. Of course, Mohammad himself, the perfect man, is the primary cause of both these states of affairs.
Or maybe Jesus really said, "If someone stikes you, or, I mean, me, with insults or any other kind of disrespect whatsoever, offer the other cheek, I mean, smile and make him feel comfortable, and then stab the blasphemer in the gut with a Roman gladius, and twist it for good measure."
Yep, sounds like Jesus.
Pakistan needs sanctions.
Quote:Pakistan needs sanctions.
Ditto, they need sanctions not $3 billion handouts.
Quote:Has Amnesty International tried to intervene on his behalf?
haha... Amnesty is busy protesting the "brutal" repression of "armed political groups" (read Jehadi Terrorists) in J&K. Tell me sbrst u don know Amnesia Intl do you?
OT, but a small derivative of the phrase "Peace be upon you" as under common usage in islam:
A DERIVATION OF THE ISLAMIC PHRASE "PEACE BE UPON YOU"
"Peace be upon you. Unless you're a Christian, or a filthy Jew, in which case, temporary peace be upon you until I can justifiably accuse you of 'breaking a treaty' (if you're a foreigner) or of insulting the bearded psychopath I call a prophet (if you're a local), in which case, death be unto you unless you convert or pay a punitive tax. In the former case, you will burn in hell, unless you're a Christian or Jew in name only and actually believe in my psycho "prophet", in which case you may burn in hell anyway since my god's flaky and likes to do that for kicks.
In the latter case, peace be unto you, if you wear distinctive clothing, and keep paying the punitive tax, and don't drink wine or eat bacon ANYWHERE we can see (including your own home, in some cases), and don't build your churches higher than our mosques or repair them - tell you what, don't build any new ones either - and make your women cover their heads and don't complain if we abduct and rape them anyway or take them as wives - but don't even THINK about making eye contact with "our" women, and never argue against a muslim, or walk anywhere but in the gutter if one is walking down the street with you. Sorry if that seems complex; there's a whole bunch more stuff which we'll mention later as we make it up just to humiliate you. That'll do for now. You know, it really is your fault for your obstinacy! It would be simpler if you weren't "of the Book", whatever we interpret that to be this week, because then we could just kill you and send you to the hell Allah decrees for you, because he is so loving!
But, of course, because we're so peaceful, it would be so much easier if you were muslim, because then we could treat you like a human being.
Unless you were a woman, of course."
And allah knows not.
Prophet Geoff
Prophet geoff - excellent point
"Tell me sbrst u don know Amnesia Intl do you?"
I'm learning, Vikrant. Amnesty for some, Amnesia for others. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Sbrst - "Are groups such as the World Council of Churches, the Anglican Church, or others who are so relentlessly critical of Israel doing anything to try and save this man's life? "
http://www.barnabasfund.org/
I can't see any specific mention of Younis Masih on the site yet but he may feature in next months bulletin. What is certain is that the Barnabas Fund have been doing a lot of work on the quiet in Pakistan. They don't publicise the details much for obvious reasons. Pakistan is not a happy place to be.
to all amnesty international bashers - rest assured amnesty is fully aware of the current evil in pakistan re blasphemy, has intervened in the past and will no doubt do so again, as will the church of england and many other church groups
Off with their hands!
Feets
Heads
etc
I wonder if OJ is looking for work.
Poor christian, like forever, there aren´t news, poor christians.
Freedie where was your Amnesty when there were wholesale Hindu genocides in Pakistan (1947-48) and Bangladesh (1971)?? Amnesty hasnt publicised the plight of Kashmiri Pandits as much as it does for Palestinians... Face it, Amnesty is an org hijacked by PC Leftie brigade. It is headed by Irene Khan a Bangladeshi herself.
another example of the religion of peace at work!
The Pakis are upset about somebody saying that muhammad was a pedophile, terrorist, illiterate, savage and demon-possessed liar?
Good! Let them be upset, and afraid of the truth.
‘Blasphemer of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) must be hanged immediately’ and ‘We are ready to sacrifice everything for the defence and protection of the Holy Prophet’s (PBUH) dignity’.
Muslims worship and revere a man, Mohammad, as though he were a god. He is in fact set up as such a holy object worship that slighting him is punishable by death. Muslims also exhibit fetishism in their reverence and worship of the Koran. These practices, the worship of men and fetishism, are clearly primitive superstitious beliefs that contradict their dogmatic insistence in the sole worship of Allah. Clearly the psyche of Islam is a schizophrenic dog's breakfast of superstition and less than pure monotheistic dogma. Muslims worship three gods. Allah, Mohammad, and the Koran. They hold these three up so high that no part of this Islamic trinity can be insulted or slighted without drawing the death penalty. What further proof does anyone need of Islam's spiritual hypocrisy and bankruptcy?
f.g.
According to Dictionary.com on blaphemy:
1:A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.
If the accused offender was a Christian, his interpretation may be different about who or what that God is. A Christian worshipping Jesus and or YHVH,would not be Blaspheming Allah as God, because the Christian does not believe Allah is God. The same for a 'sacred entity'. Your sacred entity and my sacred entity,are not the same sacred entity,and yours deserves to be insulted because it aint sacred.
2 act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.
May not apply in this case.
3. irreverent or impious act, attitude, or utterance in regard to something considered inviolable or sacrosanct.
Again, as a Chrisian you cant blaspheme something you do not feel is inviolable or sacrosanct. If this Christian spoke the truth about Mohammad or insulted him in some way, that was not blasphemy,bcause the Christian is not beholden to Mohammad except as a dhimmi.
To give him the death sentence for this or any harsh punishment 'is' blasphemy,against human dignity. But since these same people dont acknowledge human dignity, I guess they aren't blaspheming afterall. Niether was the Christian...let him go...
Vikrant - your last post directed at me sounded very angry i dont know why. after all, was amnesty around in 1947, or even in 1971? i dont know prhaps you can tell me
btw in 2000, yoram schweitzer, of the institute of counter-terrorism in israel said - "they are unequivocally the most effective and brutal terrorist organisation ever to utilize suicide terrorism" who was he speaking of?
the tamil tigers - your lot, i believe.
(sorry that was perhaps below the belt see i can get angry too i know i shouldnt but god help me i do) - i have read that until 2003, no other group did more suicide bomb missions than the tamil tigers
thank god it seems to have stopped since the cease fire over there
if youre interested in the christian perspective in the sub-continent - look up the "pakistan christian post" click on "headline news" to get christian reaction to yousufs defection to islam and if you like, go further down to "BJP hindu leader" to get the perspective on the increasingly bad situation for christians in india
Freddie, what Vikrant was pointing is that AI has become bias, even obsessed with Palestinian Islamists, and less vocal, even silent about Muslim terrorism. KAHN! (I always think Ricardo Montelbahn when I say or write that) is driving it with her American hating rants and influence on what is important to AI. Just another corrupt organization fighting against the Infidels. Do we finance them too? Government or private dhimmi or wealthy Islamists?
John Sobieski, PI
The Pedestrian Infidel Blog
Demented men worship a rock in the desert called allah and demented men follow in the footsteps and commit all of the sins of the profit named mohammed.
Free the women of islam, and we'd be rid of this cancer once and for all.
How ironic it would be, to have women be the liberators of this demonic cult of death!
`the tamil tigers - your lot, i believe.`
Celonese Tamils. I doubt Vikrant is one - going by his name.
`Demented men worship a rock in the desert`
5 times a day idolators.
Virkrant is right, of course, re AI.
And as for The Church of England, freddie, much of it busy concocting a fools paradise of reality, a dangerous one, a foolish one.
I am angry that some western, Christain predominant governments do not publicly 'complain', in the U.N., to the media, loudly. We offer equal participation, equal rights, to moslems; how dare moslem governments allow this crap to go on.
And i don't hear a murmur.
What fools we are
what fools we look like,
aren't we inviting worse.
Christian.
Leavingtheleft... i'm not Tamil. Vikrant is a pukka North-Indian name.I'm part Sindhi and part Maratha. Camberleykar (kar is pronounced as ker) may sound a Tamil concoction but infact its a Marathi "word" meaning "from Camberley". I live in a town called Camberley. Hence my screen name translates as "Vikrant from Camberley" .
Freddie things happening in Sri Lanka are btwn Sinhalese and Tamils, its an ethnic conflict not religious. LTTE is s'posed to fight for Tamils not Hindus... since there are a few Sinhlaese Hindus as well. LTTE has never had support in India outside Tamil Nadu, it is banned by Indian Union since it has been implicated in assasination of an Indian Primeminister. LTTE just like IRA doesnt use religious justifications for terror. LTTE are not my lot, they are Sri Lankan Tamils. I'm a British Hindu Nastika. Hindus unlike Muslims dont support atrocities commited by their co-religionists. Needless to point out you wont find Hindu organisations inciting hatred against "Buddhists" for "persecuting" their brothers...
BTW LTTE has quite a lot of Christian Tamils as well.
Stephen from Pakistan wants to be heard:
This message is for Mr. Mohammad Yousuf. “I am Pakistani Christian and I am proud to be Christian” S
One action of Mohammad Yousuf former “Yousuf Youhana” has left ten million Pakistani Christians answerable at their works, at their colonies and at their gatherings therefore I feel, as a Christian, I do possess a right to ask few questions to Mr. Mohammad Yousuf as well:
(a) If you have embraced Islam for last three year, why did you make the sign of cross while making 50 and 100 during past 3 years? Answer us, because you do,t have right to disgrace our sacred sign.
(b) Do you know, when you come to play in the ground the spectators raise their voice as, "O BHANGI AA GAYA MAIDAN MAIN HAIJ MALO". This sentence really hurt us at that time but from now own we will not be hurt any more because you have stopped them to say so.
(c) I know everyone has right to make their personal decision but when someone from the minority gets the high position, his responsibilities also increases with its position, he actually becomes the ambassador (representative) of a certain community. As you were also the ambassador of Christian community but as an ambassador, you deceived us and played with our sentiments. You are a disloyal. Just consider how you could be loyal with Islam, once you were disloyal to Christianity.
And don't worry; we, Christians are not sorry at all about you but on the contrary we are very happy that our community has got rid of a Deceitful and a Disloyal person.
Stephen.
http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/ledetails.php?id=297
Leavingtheleft... i'm not Tamil. Vikrant is a pukka North-Indian name.I'm part Sindhi and part Maratha. Camberleykar (kar is pronounced as ker) may sound a Tamil concoction but infact its a Marathi "word" meaning "from Camberley". I live in a town called Camberley. Hence my screen name translates as "Vikrant from Camberley" .
Freddie things happening in Sri Lanka are btwn Sinhalese and Tamils, its an ethnic conflict not religious. LTTE is s'posed to fight for Tamils not Hindus... since there are a few Sinhlaese Hindus as well. LTTE has never had support in India outside Tamil Nadu, it is banned by Indian Union since it has been implicated in assasination of an Indian Primeminister. LTTE just like IRA doesnt use religious justifications for terror. LTTE are not my lot, they are Sri Lankan Tamils. I'm a British Hindu Nastika. Hindus unlike Muslims dont support atrocities commited by their co-religionists. Needless to point out you wont find Hindu organisations inciting hatred against "Buddhists" for "persecuting" their brothers...
BTW LTTE has quite a lot of Christian Tamils as well.
oops.. btw Freddie i oughta b angry for the gencodies.. My maternal grandfathers almost entire family was killed or converted in the madness of '47. Sindh was hastily handed over to Pakistan. It had 35% Hindu minority. Now they constitute just 4% in Sindh i believe. There were no memorials, no tribunals no holocaust days for the estd 1.2 million Hindus and Sikhs killed in post-partition "riots". Sindhi Hindus were just kicked out of their ancestral homeland on which they'd dwelt for 3000 years in a month. For 11 million Sindhi Hindus its an eternal exile. Their culture language,food habits,music and culture is dying.
"BJP hindu leader" to get the perspective on the increasingly bad situation for christians in india
Haha i'm not buying that. Most of u guys dont quite understand Hindutva... Its not a supremacist philosophy. As for the "increasingly bad" situation part, freddie me boy... BJP is on;y trying to prevent conversions to Christianity... but they've never had an anti-Christian bias. If u dont know, BJP has 5 Muslim MP's in parliament. The defense Minister in previous BJP govt, was a Catholic.
Freddie, dont discount my allegations as mere propoganda. But conversions to Christianity in India are often superficial and coercive like in Goa where Portuguese destroyed local Marathi-Konkani culture.. google for "Rice Christians". Most Dalits who convert to Christianity retain their Dalit stautus to avail of economic,educational and political proveleges it affords. BJP is not some Hindu version of Ayatollah. Indian Christians have their own personal laws. Only one missionary was killed by a bigotted criminal in 1998, he on death row.
Lastly Hinduism is pretty flexible, we can pary to Christ while remaining a Hindu. There are millions of neo-Buddhists in India, then why arent they cryin hoarse over Hindu "fundamentalism" (Hinduism has no fundamentals)...
Benny Hinn has cheek to say in India that Hinduism was a flase religion. Every coin has two side m8...
I look forward to the day when Pakistan is no longer considered an ally of my country.
Amnesia International & the west's Christian organisations are silent on many matters concerning Muslims & Islam.
If this poor man was a Muslim in a Christian land being treated so abysmally they would be standing shoulder to shoulder with international Muslim Human Rights groups (oxymoron number 5 today), displaying their utter indignation on Al BBCeera 24/7.
They are in fact enforcing their own silence so as not to offend anyone.
This is, of course taken as fear induced weakness - & we all know how that emboldens Muslims, boils their blood, actually gives them line of sight of their final victory.
Until Amnesia International & the western Christian organisations re-assess their public positions on the matter of all things Muslim they will continue to gain the contempt they so richly deserve.
Geoff, I have a friend from Syria who is a Christian. I am told that the phrase "Salaam al'akuum" is a shortened version of the full phrase "Salam Allah a-kuum", or "The peace of Allah be with you". Naturally a Muslim would not let an Infidel use the name of Allah, hence the prohibition on non-Muslims being allowed to speak the greeting. Just another example of Islamic prejudice, paranoia and dhimmitude. Just thought you'd like to know.
"Salaam al'akuum" I have always seen as a bastardized version of `Shalom Aleichem` (Welcoming the angels before the start of the Friday night meal).
Interesting comment, Bohemund. And here I thought that Christians, Jews and Muslims all worshipped the SAME god. Guess islam figures it knows something the rest don't.
Also interesting that non-muslims would not be allowed to say it. More proof of what, on perusal of the site, seems already clear.
Prophet Geoff
BBUH
Vikrant - "where was your amnesty...." - the answer is it did not exist in 1947-48 so theres no point in blaming them for doing nothing about atrocities which took place
i know you feel your cause, particularly with reference to kashmir, may not be getting a fair shout in amnesty, but probably a lot of people could say the same thing about their concerns. the fact is muslim governments have been heavily criticised recently, including bangladesh, as has the palestinian authority since irene khan took over
you referred to the "pc leftie brigade". i dont know when people are going to get this, but pc and left-wing do not go together any more than pc and right-wing go together. i am left wing, but certainly not pc. for instance i think abortion is murder. i think homosexuality is perversion. i think islam is satanically inspired. i think veganism is a lot of bloody nonsense. i am certainly not alone in this, but it all goes down like a lead balloon with some people
"bjp is only trying to prevent conversions to christianity" - the bjp has no business whatever in trying to prevent conversions to any religion.
if they are meddling in peoples choices, however they do it, trying to steer or influence how they should choose in this matter, then what level does that put them on? trying to prevent people converting from hinduism should be the job of hindu priests (by means of persuasion only), not political parties. coerced prevention of conversion however it is achieved, is surely no better than coerced conversion (which did take place in the past, i know).
yes i know what youre saying about rice christians and accept that conversions are often in name only, but the issue is about real conversion
as for sri lanka - im not even going there. i was angry when i said what i did, and shouldn't have
Ahh.. did i say BJP?.. sorry i was refering to RSS with regards to preventing conversions.. it is a cultural organisation.They prevent conversions of Hindus by persuation... probably thats why they face Vaticans ire. Amnesia Intl may not have been present in 1948 but sure UN, Red Cross and British Govt was there. British Govt. i must say did absolutely nothing to prevent those Hindus deaths (who were British subjects at that time) in Pakistan. Pakistan was never questioned with regards to complicity of its police and army in extermination of its Hindu people.
P.S As for Amnesty criticising Bangla govt. its all superficial. I refuse to recognise credibility of a group that labels butchers of 20000 Kashmiri Pandits as "armed political groups".
" British Govt. i must say did absolutely nothing to prevent those Hindus deaths (who were British subjects at that time) in Pakistan. Pakistan was never questioned with regards to complicity of its police and army in extermination of its Hindu people."
Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar [TypeKey Profile Page] at September 22, 2005 12:47 PM
I totally disagree with Vikrant; there were atrocities committed on both sides during the partition. Why blame the British they were being kicked out of India, Nehru apppealed to the then Viceroy - Lord Mountbatten and asked for help from them to quell the kililngs that were going on both sides; so do not put the blame only on Pakistan the Hidnus were doing the same thing to Muslims.
Also, Vikrant seems to white wash the Hindus as not aggressive. They have been committing various atrocities against the Christians and Dhalits in India. Why should some Indians be treated as untouchables- they are humnan being too.
Geoff, don't ever tell a Muslim (or a believing Jew) that "Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the SAME god," unless you're a Unitarian. Christians believe "in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made", which to a Muslim or a Jew is the rankest blasphemy. They are rigid monotheists who reject the Trintarian concept of "One God in three Persons" and consider Christianity to be, strictly, a polytheistic religion.
`there were atrocities committed on both sides during the partition`
That is true, cos their forces in India were mainly indians. Thye few British officers around would have been slaughtered.
The muslim segment wanted their own homeland to be free to practise the evil ideology, and in true jihadi fashion launched the terror to drive the non-muslims out of the contested areas (i.e. where the muslims were in majority).
This could have been prevented if the Sikhs, when they had been in power earlier, had forcibly converted the muslims.
Yes, the British had their faults, but they cannot be simply blamed. But they can be blamed for interfering and trying to stop India durin the `73 war - which could be cos of US influence.
Im all this there is a lesson:
A fatwa has been announced for a holy war of the Sunnis against the Shiites. This has been given on a silver plate and has to be fully exploited.
Every major Sunni or Shiite is now a target of the other side. Recent statements in mecca, the `rush` to make overtures to jews are attempts to gain favor of the `decadent` west.
However, an elimination, extreme sanction, here and there of a religous leader, a politician, and then a `revenge`, followed by escalation.
This is totally in line with Mo who said there would be 73 sects of which only the true one would survive.
That is the root problem and the solution so simple.
Indeed so, Jovan: do you not think the Prophet of T'Allahwalla is aware of this?! A pox on you: may your beard fall out!
Seriously, though, I didn't know that (presumably Orthodox) Jews also believed that in addition to muslims.
The main difference being, I doubt even the most Orthodox Jew would have you put to death for such a statement.
Prophet Geoff
Beer Be Upon Him
Actually, since I AM Prophet Geoff,
Beer Be Upon ME
`This could have been prevented if the Sikhs, when they had been in power earlier, had forcibly converted the muslims.`
That post by me above is in no way meant to disparage the Sikhs. If anything it is to be taken as a compliment. After all many muslims did and do of their free will.
Damn: `durin the `73 war`. was`71 war.
`Also, Vikrant seems to white wash the Hindus as not aggressive. They have been committing various atrocities against the Christians and Dhalits in India. Why should some Indians be treated as untouchables- they are humnan being too.`
There have been abominable incidents. Yes. But not on the impled exaggerated scale.
On the Dalits, this is a phenomena that is rapidly losing ground and im the towns and cities with an increasingly mobile popn. it is fast losing the `stigma`.
One could venture that the Govt`s attempts to eradicate with special seats here and there have resulted in `reverse` conversions to Dalitism. e.g. seats in Medical Colleges, Govt. service.
As for the Christian aspect, i understand the main contention has been that money has been used to convert for instance to pay someone staying on a 5 x 5 area or in remote villages.
And if that is not enuf there is the condemnation of the Hindu beliefs etc. That stirs up the other blokes.
However, I would be interested in Vikrant`s observation. He has put it better in a previous post.
Case Study:
Genocide in Bangladesh, 1971
In her ground-breaking book, Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape, Susan Brownmiller likened the 1971 events in Bangladesh to the Japanese rapes in Nanjing and German rapes in Russia during World War II. "... 200,000, 300,000 or possibly 400,000 women (three sets of statistics have been variously quoted) were raped. Eighty percent of the raped women were Moslems, reflecting the population of Bangladesh, but Hindu and Christian women were not exempt. ... Hit-and-run rape of large numbers of Bengali women was brutally simple in terms of logistics as the Pakistani regulars swept through and occupied the tiny, populous land ..." (p. 81).
http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html
Prez Musharaff was a senior army officer in BanglaDesh at that time. His soldiers were part of the perpetrators (even if he did not). He was later to be respinsible for Kargil.
As a senior army officer he surely knew about the Taliban, AQ Khan and most important:
`Jihad and terrorism by one of the founding fathers of modern terrorism, the late General Zia-ul-Haq, former president of Pakistan. He sponsored one Brigadier Malik to produce an authoritative military manual on Jihad called The Quranic Concept of War`
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/007320.php
faqi dont write on things abt which u dont know a shit...
Untouchablity?? Thats history m8.... Dalits are accorded reservations in educations,jobs,legislatures . They are given more scholarships. Caste system does tend to b practised in rural India but its in less stringent form, i.e ppl only marry within their caste. But untouchability... no way.
BTW Dalits are Hindus too.
Abt those "agressions" against Christians, there has been only 1 untoward incident towards Christians and bigots behind it are on death row. Anyways those supposed agressors are not Hindus but Hindutvavadis. Most Hindus play good ole dhimmis. Half-knowledge is a dangerous thing. Hinduism never encourages violence nor intolerence. Its more tolerant than ur semitic faiths. I can pray to God in any form while remaining a Hindu. I can pray to Allah or Christ... Hinduism never actively seeks converts. You can believe in Vedas while being a Christian. You can practise Yoga while remaining a Christian .Ofcourse there was caste system but most of it has been done away with. Anyways i'm tired of explaining the nature of caste system in modern times.. Theres more to Hinduism than caste and cows....
Too much shit has been sprayed on Hinduism. I can also dig up dirt on Christianity based on historical facts. All religious has their bad side historically but all except Islam have reformed.
As for atrocities commited on both sides...
1.2 million Hindus and Sikhs dead
20000 Muslims dead...
Indian authorities didnt participate in the slaughter as opposed to Pakistan.
Muslims now in Pakistan(2001):140 million
Muslims in India (1951): 25 million
Muslims now in India(2001):150 million
Hindus in Pakistan Before partition: 14 million
Hindus now in Pakistan: 2 million
Statistics spek for themselves
"Hindus were doin the same to Muslims"
I believe it was Sikhs who kicked Muslim butts while Hindus under Gandhi were chanting Hindu-Muslim bahi bhai. Hence today Pujab is porbably the only North Indian state where they dont have Muslims in sizable proportions.
Vikrant - "i can pray to allah" (incidentally does that mean you do?) - youll be ok when you hit karachi then, m8 (you know, to see what a bad job the pakistanis have made of it, like you said)- just go down to the local mosque and im sure youll be made to feel most welcome - (no christian would pray to allah or any of your 33 million gods) - sounds like serious dhimmitude to me
but untouchability is not history, as you have said vikrant. gandhi took on the british empire and won - he also took on the caste system and failed. the brahmins were dancing in the streets when he got shot, because he was the one who took the harijans into hindu temples, where they can no longer go, unless they are young girls forced into temple prostitution
"dalits are accorded reservations" - yes they are, they even found one for KRN, didnt they
why should they even need these "reservations"?
have you read u r ananthamurthy on the subject - he is a brahmin poet, and hates the caste system
martin macwan, gujarati dalit, said "a diplomat from the indian mission in geneva accused the indian national campaign on dalit human rights of shaming india, washing our dirty linen in public. the problem is, its difficult to shame anyone in india. we cant use shame, because at home, in most of rural india, untouchability and atrocities are the norm rather than the exception. so the linen does not seem so dirty. or dirty is normal for us."
incidentally, if all religions are valid, as seems to be the proud boast of hinduism, according to you, then why are rss trying to prevent conversions to christianity, and why are you complaining about the rise of the muslim population in india?
this thread is now a bit dated, but id like to hear your views on this - incidentally how did we get on to this, when were supposed to be talking about the dire situation of a christian in pakistan? probably my fault as usual
Just the type of Islam that Mohammad Yousuf aka Yousuf Youhana loves so much.
Whenever there is degradation of Dharma (virtue/righteousness)
O Bharata, and growth of adharma (wickedness/unrighteousness)
Then I embody Myself
For the protection of the good (virtuous)
For the destruction of the wicked (evil)
To establish Dharma
I take forth a body in Age after Age
Bhagavad Gita IV: 7-8
HOW DOES THE SUPREME LORD WORK THROUGH HIS PROPHETS to establish or restore balance and harmony, without which the creation would not function? Does He leave His abode and come, or does He send His emissary or Son? How does He take the shape of Spirit embodied as a Prophet? What is this phenomenon? Who is the Son of God? Who is Vishnu and Who is Krishna? Who is the Father in heaven and Who is Jesus? Who is the Buddha and Who the Bodhisattva? How does this marriage of the Spirit and mind take place? The answer is not new except in context: God is omnipotent. He can assume any form. Wherever He takes form, He does not have to leave “there.” He can take an infinite number of forms, simultaneously.
Link to the above is: http://cgsun.psych.arizona.edu/jforster/KalkiAvatar.htm
I notice Mo is left out.
The author has given numerous other arguments in favour of his claim that Kalki Avatar is in fact Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wasallam and those who still await the arrival of Kalki Avatar should think again.
http://www.riyaduljannah.com/ArtView.asp?sp=5&ArtId=519
`Cept that the other incarnation of Vishnu is that of a boar:
At the end of the last deluge in the last Kalpa or age, Bhoomi Devi (Mother Earth) sank to the bottom of the ocean. Vishnu, taking the form of a large boar, Varaha, dived into the ocean and carried the goddess out of the ocean supported by his two tusks and his massive snout.
http://www.lotussculpture.com/vishnu1.htm
So Mo was a big pig?
Freddie the extent to which casteism is rampant in India is grossly exgagerrated. The problem here is that, people tend to see India and Indian culture as some homogenous identity. According to my birth i would have been a "high caste". But i'm not apologist for caste system. It was bad and it has to go. But i've been to loads of rural areas in India... Untouchability is non-exixstant. Indian govt ensures that. There are these Panchayats or "Village Councils" which have to elect a Dalit or a Women as its leaders. There has been only few instances of untouchability in rural India and that too in Andhra Pradesh. Oh yes casteism is rampant in rural India i wont deny that. Rural ppl wont marry outside their caste but its limited to that.
As for Brahmins dancing on the streets when Gandhi died.. they may have, Brahmins remain a bit casteist i can say, but what they didnt tell u is how Brahmins were ruthlessly murdered and kicked out of cities and towns in Western India. BTW The old man had to die, they didnt kill him becoz he campaigned for Dalit rights, he was killed becoz he wanted India to retain its Muslim character.. He sealed India's fate by insisting that Muslims stay.
where they can no longer go, unless they are young girls forced into temple prostitution
Dalits no longer going into temples is pure bs... where did u get that? ur local church bulletin?
There might have been an odd instance or two but by large casteism in its stringent forms is over. As for youg girls thing, i think ur refering to "Devdasi", its a cultural phenomenon not a Hindu thing. Yes there have been one or two instances of Devdasis in modern Inda.
But again India is as i said a Union of States which are loosely connected together by common cultural origins. Many peculiar things are a localised phenomenon... Many Hindus will tell u that they dont worship rats like in Rajasthan. Most Hindus arent even aware that Devdasi system even exists. Even in its heydays it was prevalent only in small part of Southern India.
As for Dalit Campaingers, i've nothing against them. But they dont realise its time to forgive and forget. Whatever has happened has happened.
They must stop looking towards other Hindus as "Aryan" colonisers (genetically speaking i'm a Scythian). As for reservations it has worked. It has helped educate dalits, empower them. Now they're asking to reservations in Private sector. Ofcourse i cant bitch about how i need 95% marks to get into a good college but a SC/ST student regardless of his economic ability needs a paltry 60%, i'll b labelled a casteist. Dalits are have got so used to reservations that they retain their Dalit status even after they convert. Well if they convert to other religion to get rid of the stigma (which will b perfectly natural), then they're not "downtrodden" anymore.
Even if u say all religions are valid that doesnt mean Hinduism asks that u can convert to them. What i meant to say that you can follow their philosophy or even introduce it to Hinduism whilst remaining a Hindu. As for Muslim population... i can say that it was becoz of inherent tolerence of Hinduism that India had such a large no. of Muslims in the first place. Muslims were treated with tolerence when Hindus regained power in 18th century.
As for me praying to Allah, i'm a Nastika (Sanskrit == Atheist,Apostate). I dont believe in Vedas. I see Hinduism is more of a culture rather than a religion.My ancestors were Buddhists initially since Buddha himself was a Scythian. I'm a Hindu in cultural sense. Hinduism actually is an umbrella term for non-organised Dharmic religions.
I guess i cant really force anybody to believe in anything. But i've written what I believe is truth.
Learning from Mahatma Gandhi’s mistakes - Dr. Koenraad Elst
(6) Refusing to acknowledge that Pakistan had become an enemy state after its invasion of Kashmir, by undertaking a fast unto death in order to force the Indian government to pay
Pakistan 55 crore rupees from the British-Indian treasury. Pakistan was entitled to this money, but given its aggression, it would have been normal to set the termination of its aggression, including the withdrawal of its invading troops, as a condition for the payment. Indeed, that would have been a sterling contribution to the cause of enduring peace, saving the lives of the many thousands who fell in subsequent decades because of the festering wound which Kashmir has remained under partial Pakistani occupation. Coming on top of Gandhi’s abandonment of the Hindus trapped in Pakistan in August 1947, it was this pro-Pakistani demand, as well as his use of his choice moral weapon (left unused to save India’s unity or the persecuted Hindus in Pakistan) in the service of an enemy state’s treasury, that angered a few Hindu activists to the point of plotting his murder
http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/articles/fascism/gandhimistake.html
yes that was interesting Vikrant. no i didnt get it out any church bulletin, but out of "new internationalist" - july 2005 edition (not yet up on the ni website). im talking about the jogini/devdasi thing, and dalits not getting into temples, that is
the whole edition of the mag is given over to the problem of dalits, which is not confined to india, but is widespread. you get it in pakistan (where only very few people will admit it), nepal, japan, nigeria and in many other countries