Sudanese government: genocide? What genocide?

From the above article:

"The UN Security Council passed a resolution in July 2004, asking Sudan to rein in Janjawid militias in 30 days or face international action."

What a joke!

per Reuters:

"Twenty-nine people were reported killed in an unprecedented attack on a refugee camp in the northwest of the Sudan region of Darfur, the United Nations said on Thursday.

According to initial reports, the Aro Sharow camp was attacked by 250-300 "armed Arab men on horses and camels" late on Wednesday, the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) said in a statement."

But we not sure if we can call this genocide just yet. What a joke indeed - and a sick one at that!

"The resolution has been dismissed by the Khartoum government."

Of course: the dhimmized can be easily dismissed by the members of the umma, simply because they know those subjects won't dare to raise a hand to defend themselves.

Differently, the resolutions of a harbi kafir (belligerent infidel) never will be dismissed.

Much better kafir harbi.

The only "genocide" Muslims seem willing to discuss is the one the Jews have been perpetrating against the Palestinians.

scaramouoche:

Sneer quotes around genocide when using it in this context are far too subtle a signal. New bloggers may not understand where you are coming from and I doubt you'd want to be seen as acknowledging that there is any basis to the Palestinian claim as victims of genocide.

And heaven knows we've had annoyance on this site with a certain moral equivalencer in regards to the Holocaust.

waterdragon52--They weren't sneer quotes, since I was alluding to a specific incident--the advice Tony Blair recently received from his Muslim advisors to scrap Holocaust Memorial Day in favour of a more all-encompassing (and Holocaust denying) Genocide Day. This new celebration would acknowledge the "genocide" (not sneering, merely pointing out that the designation is both appalling and inaccurate) of the Palestinians at the hands of the Jews. Talking up this "genocide" (again, not meant to be sneery) also helps further the trope that the Jews are the new Nazis--a reprehensible distortion of history which insults the memory of those who perished in the Holocaust.

"...30 days or face international action."

Do those idiots at the UN realise how much damage I can do by myself in 30 minutes? In 30 days I could sack Rome all by myself. Obviously no one within the UN really cares about individual people. And worse, it seems they don't care about people as community entities either. They seem only to care about the right poses they can strike for each other. What's fashionable? Palestinians, the most important people in the world. What I could do in 30 seconds would scare them for years. But the fact is I'm not going to do any such thing. In the meantime, in the next 30 days, the Sudanese government is going to kill a lot of people. And then? Well, boo, the UN will cluck and sulk and slip some cash to the Muslims to make nice and calm their ruffled feathers and bones. Or maybe it's not innate evil on the part of the clerks of death. Maybe it's simple inertia. Maybe it's too much trouble to actually do something right in this or any other situation. Maybe it's just laziness.

scaramouoche:

If that was your point, and I don't dispute it, again, how many of us would have known?

Obviously, I sure didn't, and I am quite aware of the Muslim-led campaign in Britain to have a Genocide Day rather than a Holocaust Day, and further, if I recall correctly, the listed "genocides" mentioned by the proponents were limited to those supposed "genocides" perpetrated against Muslims (Kosovo/Bosnia, Iraq, Palestine). Perhaps Rwanda was also mentioned, but not Darfur and most certainly not the genocide of Armenians at the hands of Turkey.

And, so far, Blair has rejected this travesty, hasn't he?

Waterdrag: " heaven knows we've had annoyance on this site with a certain moral equivalencer in regards to the Holocaust."

King: Moral equivalence to you = intellecutal honesty to me. I am glad you find it annoying since it means you still think about it. Good!

"Sudan is denying the jihad genocide it perpetrated against black Muslims in Darfur that the Arabs of Khartoum didn't deem Muslim enough.."
-- from Robert's comments on the article above

Robert, would you consider rephrasing that comment? The Arab supremacist ideology that is within Islam surely does not require any proof that other non-Arab Muslims are not "Muslim enough" does it? Would you agree that perhaps, being non-Arabs, they cannot possibly be "Muslim enough" because in the end, it is only Arabs who, within this supposedly universalist religion (with a universalist meesage), can conceivably really follow the ways of Muhammad and His Companions, only Arabs who can truly understand Islam for it was given "to them" and in their langugae, and consequently, they are, quite rightly, the best of people. You others, you non-Arabs, well do as you wish, with your salat and zakat and Ramadan and hajj, but you are still not us, not Arabs. The Kurds and Berbers and Iranians surely know this, from their own treatment at the hands of Arabs -- treatment which is not based on measuring the depths of their commitment to Islam. And surely the Afghanis, who recall the contumely with which they were treated by "the Arabs" (who thought nothing of using Afghanistan, and the Afghanis, for their own purposes), the complete indifference to them, to their own culture within Islam. And now the black Africans in Darfur are being killed and driven off the land. In Islam, it is possession of the land that matters, not what happens to the people. Muslim Arabs want that land, want to control it, want it for their nomads as opposed to the settled ways of the black farmers, want whatever oil or other wealth may be underneath the soil, want, want, want. And they are Arabs, so they deserve it. And within Islam, for Arabs, it is right and proper tnat non-Arabs should forget their own histories and adopt the ways, or emulate the ways, or worship the ways, of 7th-century Arabs, should take Arab names (Soliman al-Kosovi, for example), with the kind of glee that a third-grader gives himself a special cowboy or super-hero name, and then of course there is all that Arab mumbo-jumbo which non-Arab converts just love to drop into their talk, with the same kind of enthusiasm that a first-year law student may drop "promissory estoppel" quite unnecessarily into a conversation, and let's not even begin to mention what first-year medical students can do.
Secret language, special names -- god, it's a wonder that Huey, Dewey, and Louie didn't convert to Islam. Fun for all the kids.

Anyway, back to those sheep that are, along with any cattle, being slaughtered, along with their black African owners, by those who call themselves Arabs, and think of themselves as Arabs, in the Sudan. My point was this: it is their non-Arabness that guarantees that their Islam will always be judged to be less authentic, whatever the fervency of their faith, simply because they are -- non-Arabs.

Would you agree, or do you think my take on the hierarchy within Islam is wrong?

Can anyone find out how many people have really been killed in the Sudan jihad, at least since 1945? It seems to me that I have read in several places over 2 million since 1990. And I have a book (I'll check it at home with I get there) "The Third Chimpanzee" by Jared Diamond where he notes quite a higher number (like over 100,000 or was it over 1,000,000? since 1945....but that book came out in the early nineties, so the correct number is probably somewhere between 2 and 4 million.

And no one seems to give a damn.

If anyone can direct me to a site showing the statistics, I'd appreciate it. I always leave my email address because I never know when I may not be able to check the comments page again for a few days.

kj

fanorollins@yahoo.com

PS... If you like limericks check out my comment at the "Armed Horsemen Attack Refugee Camp" article.

to KJ
There's a problem with exact statistics about the mass murder in the Sudan. The published sources do not agree.
But I would like to correct you on one point. It seems that there was little massacre before Sudanese independence in 1956. Then a few million were killed from 1956 up to the cease fire of 1972 [approx.]. This cease fire lasted [with several violations, as one expects of Arab cease fires] until 1983, as I recall, when the new Sudanese govt declared its intention to impose Shari`ah on the whole country. The civil war and massacres started up again.
The following article gives at least two contradictory numbers of victims of genocide without deciding on a verified total. One problem in regard to numbers killed is that there has been so little attention devoted to the whole issue over the years. If there had been more attention, maybe there would be more reliable, verified info.

Here's the link:
http://www.think-israel.org/green.sudan.html

King: Moral equivalence to you = intellecutal honesty to me.

Water, don't tell me that this idiot KT is assuming his usual Shi'ite stance on moral equivalence regarding, of all things, the Holocaust.

Holy constipated anti-semites, Batman.

King, wipe with the left hand! The left! Ahh, forget it.

Prophet Geoff
BBUH

I read some time ago a book by Ronald Segal, Islam's Black Slaves. Amazon has some interesting reviews for those who care for the ANC version. Even so, it's a good place to get information if one reads between the lines.

Jack Straw, the entire UN leadership (& I use the word leadership in its loosest form)& Amnesia International should be taken out & shot for dereliction of duty & absolute, undeniable moral & ethical cowardice & appeasement in the face of Islamic fascism.

Those 7th century illiterate scum deserve death -they are beyond any redemption.

How could they think that their God, Allah, could want them to commit such barbarity?

Oh yes,I was forgeting, the Quran gives them all the authority they need.

Because of the lack of direct action against these Islamic Arab Fascists they have got worse.

Violence & suffering is all they know & understand. Let them have it, & then some more.

Those dogs must be bought to heel by force.

Prophet Geoff:

Isn't that precisely what he is doing with his frequent accusation that the bloggers here, in writing what we do about Islam and jihaddism, are the moral equivalent of the European communities who invented all sorts of slander about the resident Jewish populations prior to the Holocaust?

And it hasn't mattered a whit to him how many times it has been pointed out to him that those Jewish communities were absolutely peaceable and blameless victims -- persecuted out of jealousy and the age-old blood libel -- whereas there is a significant portion of Muslim community around the world engaging in all sorts of acts of violence and aggression against people of other faiths and, as often, Muslims of differing sects.

That's an interesting perspective, Water. I have to admit, it often seems that way, though I sometimes suspect that his deliberate ignorance is sheer bloody-mindedness. Obstifucation or obstinacy? The latter being a crime punishable by death in islam, while the former is a crime punishable by death in islam. Hard to say.

But I agree completely that his core comparison is sheer bollocks, and it comes straight out of the islamic handbook (from he who says that he knows islam "far better than I ever will", me being a "barking dog", and other phrases that also come out of the basic islamic handbook for tu tuoque as I've seen many, many times in the past). The Jews did nothing (unless you ask Ia or Brownfinger, always wiping with her left, or "A Proud Muslim" in some of the comments back on Sept 29th - shocking and revealing). Many, many muslims do not appear to be doing nothing, being either involved in actual terrorism or supporting it actively or silently (a minimum of 30-40% for the latter category, apparently). The other half of KT's argument is invariably: "What can you do? You can't do anything." which also mirrors the opinion of various muslims I've debated on-line, and which is used both to demonize the opponent and to proclaim islamic triumphalism, again and again.

Or, in short: Don't do anything until a trained medical professional arrives! DDAUATMPA. (I don't think that one will catch on. Ah well. Viva the Kids.)

Prophet Geoff
BBUH

Two very good books on the Arab slave trade involving Black Africans are a two-volume work by the English scholar John Ralph Willis, "Slaves and Slavery in Muslim Africa" (Frank Cass). The first volume is entitled "Islam and the Ideology of Enslavement At pp. 16-26 you can find the essay "Jihad and the Ideology of Enslavement" (reprinted in Bostom's "The Legacy of Jihad," pp. 343-353).

A second scholarly source, this by a Black African from Ghana, and a former Muslim, is "The Legacy of Arab-Islam in Africa" by John Alembillah Abuza.

Still a third is the essay by Jan Hoogedorn, "The Hideous Trade," about the African slave trade in black Africna boys who were then castrated on the spot, and the few who survived -- about 10% of those originally castrated -- taken to the slave markets of Islam.

Islam was a culture of slavery. Western Europeans were seized during the centuries of raiding parties up and down the coasts, some as far north as Ireland and, in one famous case, Iceland. A million Western Europeans were seized and taken back, as slaves, to the Lands of Islam. Later, corsairs from North Africa would prey on European (i.e. Christian) shipping. These Barbary Pirates, as they were known, were officially sanctioned (they would even register their voyages, with the intended victims often listed, with the Dey of Algiers). Their reign was finally ended, in two stages. The first stage was the refusal of a new victim, the United States of America, to play along and pay jizyah-ransom, with Jeffrson sending Stephen Decatur to the shores of Tripoli, about which some of you may have heard. The second was the French, who kept having their ships attacked and seamen seized, and finally, to put paid to the whole thing, invaded Algiers in 1830. And that did it -- it also brought, for a brief 132 years, agricultural development, schools, a semblance of justice, printing presses and bookstores, even universities, bref -- civilization -- to what had been before, and what became after, once the French left, barbarism.

Prophet Geoff:

I have a couple of theories about Ashkenazic Jews like KT (I say that as a another secular Ashkenazic Jew). The basic theory is that, where once Jews would make fun/denegrate other Jews based on how religious they were or weren't or what part of Eastern Europe they come from, or who was the most financially successful. Now it's about who is the most socially conscious whether they are observant or not.

Hence, KT seeks to portray himself as the best kind of humanistic Jew (he actually asked me what kind of Jew I am and keeps talking about how particularly disappointing he finds me) by showing himself to be the most tolerant.

But KT completely fails to understand that tolerance has its limits and that limit is reached when tolerance becomes inaction in the face of intolerance.

There's also a related tendency among Jews to hold Jews to a higher standard than anyone else. I think this arises from centuries of persecution -- in anticipation that one bad actor among us will bring shame and worse on our community.

Interesting perspective, Water. It's true that both Jews and the Christians seem to share that inward-looking, guilt-ridden angst in dealing with the external world. That "it's not you, it's me" complex that forces solutions to external problems only after a solid bout of personal and mutual navel-gazing. That failure to simply act: to respond, to do unto others as they would do unto you. So it's quite possible that KT is merely acting in extremis of that latter sense.

But, I reiterate, what proof do we have that he is what he says? What one doesn't say, but lets slip, on these forums is, I think, more revealing than admission. I could "admit" to being a lot of things that I'm really not, like how "Ia" "admits" to not hating Jewish people. KT's rants have contained, in their stumbling, subtle sparks that suggest strongly to me that he is not, in fact, Jewish at all, although I admit such a claim would probably be hard for a muslim to make given how Jews are described in the Quran. Perhaps he is, perhaps not.

Only his imam knows for sure!

(Oops!)

Prophet Geoff
BBUH

Prophet Geoff:

We have no proof, but my underwriter's sense of smell detects a very familiar one (redolent of Rabbi Michael Lerner of Tikkun fame). I run into Jews like KT quite a bit, living and working in downtown Toronto, where the more "left/lib" types are still to be found living in the Annex, Seaton Village, etc.

Now, of course I could be wrong about whether or not he's a convert. Did you happen across the outing of "Lee Bryant" on one of the JW threads of yesterday? I can't remember if it was "justamom.." or "libbys_mom" who caught "Lee Bryant" red-handed on an Islam friendly site, and while I didn't spend a long time reading all the correspondence, Bryant's posts seemed to be those of a convert defending the faith.

As for the underlying grandoise complex, I recall him writing not long ago that we would all be impressed all-to-hell if only we knew what an important person he is. I find truly important, intelligent people are on the unassuming side.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. I smell a naughty Wahhabit. "Barking dogs" and "I know more", indeed.

But we can agree that he must indeed be powerful, if he can post on a website.

All hail the absconding regent!

Could he be Satan? Santa Claus? Knecht Ruprecht? The Easter Bunny? Rasulallah? The mind boggles.

There's one thing he can't be, though. That's:

Prophet Geoff
BBUH

Friday, September 30, 2005 - Page updated at 12:00 AM

"Human Avalanche"

Five African immigrants killed at Spanish border

MELILLA, Spain — Climbing ladders fashioned from tree branches, hundreds of Africans from the continent's poorest countries threw themselves over razor-wire fences yesterday to gain a foothold in Europe — the latest human avalanche seeking entry into a pair of barren Spanish enclaves in Morocco.

Five people were killed trying to enter the city of Ceuta, two reportedly shot from the Moroccan side. Spain called out army troops with automatic weapons to patrol the frontier there and in Melilla, another centuries-old Spanish city on the northern coast of the only African country with land bordering a member of the European Union.

more...http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002530434_spain30.html

Does this scare anybody besides me?

Latino women finding a place in Islam
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9352969/

"Does this scare anybody besides me?

Latino women finding a place in Islam"
-- from a posting above

Yes indeed. Claro que si.