But, will the Europeans make this the case that will stick? From the TimesOnline:
ON A tiny island in the middle of Lake Van, on the far eastern edge of Turkey, a team of architects is working feverishly to restore one of the most beautiful religious buildings in the world.Holy Cross Church, on Akdamar island, was built by the Armenian King Gagik in AD921 and was once the spiritual focus for more than a million Armenian Christians.
Today there is no one left to worship in it. The entire Armenian population here was killed or driven away by Turks and Kurdish militias during the First World War, in what Armenians claim was the first genocide of the 20th century — a charge vigorously denied by the Turkish State.
The Turkish spin may deny this jihad genocide, but there is evidence to the contrary.
For 90 years the church was left to rot. Its frescoes disintegrated as the rainwater seeped in, and its delightful carvings were used for target practice by local gun-toting shepherds.In the run-up to planned EU accession talks next week, however, Turkey has come under intense pressure to acknowledge its bloody past and improve its treatment of minorities.
Four months ago the restoration work finally began, and today Muslim stonemasons are busily rebuilding this church without a congregation. The scaffolding-clad church is proof that attitudes are changing, but it is also a poignant symbol of how much work — economic, political, cultural and historical — still needs to be completed.
The membership negotiations are expected to take ten years or more, and there is no guarantee that Turkey will ever enter this hitherto white, Christian club, for the idea faces widespread public hostility within Europe. For many, this poor, populous and overwhelmingly Muslim country is simply a different culture, separated from, if not actually inimical to, Europe.
Please read it all.
Fascinating perspective of civilizational decline from Marilyn Barnewall
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46519
Thanks, Eric, for the post. Justa reminder of a post from a few weeks ago. You can sign an online petition at http://www.hagiasophiablog.com/mainpage.html to make one of the conditions of Turkey's entry into the EU that they restore Hagia Sophia to its original use as a Christian Church.
You can also check out what the Turk's are trying to hide at:
http://www.twentyvoices.com/home.html
thanks jovan66101 I did not know about this petition but as it is a topic very dear to me I have filled it out.
1) recognition of the Armenian genocide, and moves to make some kind of amends -- including a return of Armenian-owned property to both individuals and Armenian organizations
2) Hagia Sophia to be turned into a working church, with the huge green flag of Islam hung across it taken permanently down. Other still-existing churches to be opened as well, and refurbished by the state.
3) Open discussion of the 1955 attacks on Greeks in Istanbul.
4) The free exercise of religion, so that Muslims may choose to jettison Islam without any repercussions, and Christian groups may offer their services, and not be prevented at every step from proselytizing.
5) If, in the next five or ten years, the non-Muslim population of Turkey swells significantly, one will have proof that the Turkish government is in fact enforcing #4, and this will be taken into account.
6) Women must be given complete equality -- not only in Istanbul, but in the benighted countryside.
These are a half-dozen initial suggestions; others can come up with others. The jig should be up for Turkey. It is not entitled to entry into the E.U., and will not get it. But the mere raising of the issues it should be discussing with the E.U., and within Turkey, will be useful within Turkey, and should in some cases embarrass the reactionary forces of unapologetic, and unconstrained Islam.
I love this site. I am amazed at how well read most people are of their history here. yet if I were to show this site to the average university educated canadian they would use the usual one word they are armed with like "oh these people are so ignorant". I have had several discussions with so called liberal minded people and they no nothing about history and I have heard responses like"everyone committed atrocities" or "who knows what happened everyone changes history" and somehow this makes their unresearched opinion as valued as someone who actually takes the time to read their history.
I agree with all of hugh's points for turksih entry. I would also add the assyrian genocide to this and some form of autonomy for the Kurds similar to what will hopefully happen in Iraq. I will think of others, i know there is more.
"I would also add the assyrian genocide..."
If you haven't read it already, this letter will certainly be of interest.
jovan66102,
Thank you for the reminder and the links.
I can see Hugh's bet and raise him: Europe should invade Turkey and kick out its 552-year-old Occupiers.
Did the letter to Carla Fiorina get any substantive answer, or even acknowledgement of receipt? It was very well written, based on verifiable sources, and quite appropriate.
I was under the impression that the Arabs appropriated the concept of zero from the Hindus; can anyone point me toward evidence otherwise?
Eschwapp awsome link actually I read that letter soon after it was posted I have past it around to friends for the last couple of years. I think it is one of the best letters I have ever read. I even posted in on a site that deals with the cyprus turkish issue just a month ago. I dont think to many people got it.
Eschwapp awsome link actually I read that letter soon after it was posted I have past it around to friends for the last couple of years. I think it is one of the best letters I have ever read. I even posted in on a site that deals with the cyprus turkish issue just a month ago. I dont think to many people got it.
Eschwapp awsome link actually I read that letter soon after it was posted I have past it around to friends for the last couple of years. I think it is one of the best letters I have ever read. I even posted in on a site that deals with the cyprus turkish issue just a month ago. I dont think to many people got it.
I can't recommend Louis deBernieres new historical novel 'Birds Without Wings' highly enough. He writes of the turmoil in Turkey before, during, and after WW1. Best book I've read in a long time.
I for one, cannot understand why the EU needs Turkey at all to join them. If Tureky joins the EU, the poor Muslim population will all gravitate to the other EU countries where there are sizeable Muslim populations already receiving all sorts of benefits at the expense of its citizens. Why does Europe want to commit "HARA-KIRI"? I find it so hard to understand. Turkey should never be allowed to join the EU as it does not belong in Europe.
Its not a European country, period.
The British 200-year jihad atrocity demonstrates how critical it is for all of us to know our history.
At this time, Turkey is attempting to join the EU, while discrediting accounts of their malicious & aggressive Islamic history.
The US is certifying Saudi Arabia's cooperation, while Saudis are spreading radical Wahabbisim in US & world Mosques.
Also have religious extremism gaining more credibility all across the board, whether it is Islamic, Christian, or Judaism.
Are we now finding the real reasons why Milosevic / Serbia was after the Islamic KLA / Kosovo, why is NATO still protecting Al Qaeda in Kosovo ?
The Dhimmi International Criminal Court & Islamic appeased UN will not address the imminent worldwide dangers in the next stage of 1300 years of Islamic jihad… Is the ICC putting terrorists on trial?
Fully opening Gaza, for all of the worlds aggressive Islamic armies & bombs to slip in, will not guarantee safety for Israel, but it certainty does guarantee a looming danger to the only known civilized society in the Middle East.
The British 200-year jihad atrocity demonstrates how critical it is for all of us to know our history.
At this time, Turkey is attempting to join the EU, while discrediting accounts of their malicious & aggressive Islamic history.
The US is certifying Saudi Arabia's cooperation, while Saudis are spreading radical Wahabbisim in US & world Mosques.
Also have religious extremism gaining more credibility all across the board, whether it is Islamic, Christian, or Judaism.
Are we now finding the real reasons why Milosevic / Serbia was after the Islamic KLA / Kosovo, why is NATO still protecting Al Qaeda in Kosovo ?
The Dhimmi International Criminal Court & Islamic appeased UN will not address the imminent worldwide dangers in the next stage of 1300 years of Islamic jihad… Is the ICC putting Terrorists on trial?
Fully opening Gaza, for all of the worlds aggressive Islamic armies & bombs to slip in, will not guarantee safety for Israel, but it certainty does guarantee a looming danger to the only civilized society in the Middle East.
The British 200-year jihad atrocity demonstrates how critical it is for all of us to know our history.
At this time, Turkey is attempting to join the EU, while discrediting accounts of their malicious & aggressive Islamic history.
The US is certifying Saudi Arabia's cooperation, while Saudis are spreading radical Wahabbisim in US & world Mosques.
Also have religious extremism gaining more credibility all across the board, whether it is Islamic, Christian, or Judaism.
Are we now finding the real reasons why Milosevic / Serbia was after the Islamic KLA / Kosovo, why is NATO still protecting Al Qaeda in Kosovo ?
The Dhimmi International Criminal Court & Islamic appeased UN will not address the imminent worldwide dangers in the next stage of 1300 years of Islamic jihad… Is the ICC putting Terrorists on trial?
Fully opening Gaza, for all of the worlds aggressive Islamic armies & bombs to slip in, will not guarantee safety for Israel, but it certainty does guarantee a looming danger to the only civilized society in the Middle East.
The British 200-year jihad atrocity demonstrates how critical it is for all of us to know our history.
At this time, Turkey is attempting to join the EU, while discrediting accounts of their malicious & aggressive Islamic history.
The US is certifying Saudi Arabia's cooperation, while Saudis are spreading radical Wahabbisim in US & world Mosques.
Also have religious extremism gaining more credibility all across the board, whether it is Islamic, Christian, or Judaism.
Are we now finding the real reasons why Milosevic / Serbia was after the Islamic KLA / Kosovo, why is NATO still protecting Al Qaeda in Kosovo ?
The Dhimmi International Criminal Court & Islamic appeased UN will not address the imminent worldwide dangers in the next stage of 1300 years of Islamic jihad… Is the ICC putting Terrorists on trial?
Fully opening Gaza, to allow all the aggressive Islamic armies & bombs to slip in, will not guarantee safety for Israel, but it certainty does guarantee a looming danger to the only known civilized society in the Middle East.
This genocide is not just denied by the Turkish State but by the Turkish people as well. Try getting into a conversation with a Turk about the Armenians, and it's very unlikely that he or she will own up to what happened.
Faqi:
I agree with you wholeheartedly: it is ludicrous even to sit down and discuss the possibility! Period!
If the US government has its way, Turkey will be allowed to join. If the British government has its way, it will be allowed to join. Fortunately, there are examples of countries in Europe with a tad more spunk. Austria comes to mind. That country is in the process of putting a sprag in the wheel. It is to be hoped that they hold out.
Before I go any further, I find Bush and Blair brazen in their dogged insistence on getting Turkey admitted to the 'European Club'. Brazen, because these two men are the very men who have the nerve to talk about bringing democracy to the backward Middle East, while at home, they both ignore - totally ignore - public opinion by insisting on Turkey's accession. How democratic is that? Their dedication to democracy is but skin deep!
Public opinion in Europe, especially in countries such as Austria, Germany, France, and the Netherlands is very much against Turkey coming into Europe; yet the arrogant Bush and Blair, both of whom know diddly-sh¡te about Islam, are adamant that Turkey should be allowed in. How can anyone have any respect for people like that, people who speak from both sides of their mouths?
We can all see the bloody mess these two men have made out of Iraq; now they want to do the same for Europe. God! These men have got to be stupid! Tony Blair is full of bullsh¡te; George Bush, full of dangerous concepts!
Even to think of allowing Turkey into Europe is ludicrous. One doesn't have to complicate the issue with the steadfast refusal by Ankara to recognise the genocide of the poor Armeniens. That was certainly a tragedy, but there are far more pressing reasons why Turkey should not be allowed to join.
A more immediate one is Ankara's insistence on not recognising the legitimacy of the Cyprus government. If they are this arrogant before they're allowed in, think of how arrogant they'll become after they've been let in!
One can think of a whole host of reasons why there should be no place for Turkey in Europe. The most obvious ones are:
1. Geographically, Turkey doesn't belong in Europe. Only 5% of Turkey lies on the continent of Europe; therefore, if Turkey is allowed in, where will it all end? With Iraq? With Iran? With Morocco? With Libya? The possibilities are endless!
2. Europe can do without borders with the politically-fragile Middle East. To have borders with the Middle East is in itself fraught with danger, and will certainly be very dangerous for the future of Europe. One can imagine all kinds of cross-border disputes and conflagrations, to start with.
3. The history and culture of Turkey in no way fits in with the history and culture of other European countries. They are poles apart.
4. The religion of the West, or these days, perhaps, one should speak of the lack of it, was/is/should remain Christian, or at least be based on it. It is Judeo-Christianity which is, after all is said and done, the basis of our culture. Islam (except, perhaps, for the dangers it posed) has had nothing to do with it. The ramifications of this alone are enormous.
5. History shows that Christian/Western values and Islamic ones do not mix. These are two immiscible religions, cultures, ways of life. Why, then, should we ignore the lessons of history? Can the politicians give us one good reason why we should, other than the vague notion, now flying around, that to accept Turkey into the Club will avoid a 'Clash of Civilizations' à la Huntingdon? And that's nonsense! Instead of avoiding a clash, we will be precipitating one - one right here in the heart of Europe. The clash, then, will not be international; rather, it will be intranational. Bürgerkrieg, civil war to you and me, will ensue in the fullness of time. This is madness! Sheer madness! Unadulterated madness! It will bring about the slow death of Europe. No less; and maybe, just maybe, it won't be so slow, either!
6. Economically, Turkey is a poor country. It will be a huge expense and drag on the taxpayers of Europe. It is simply not worth it.
7. The population of Turkey is 95% Muslim, and it is already around the 80 million mark, and counting. It is expected to exceed 100 million in a relatively short period of time; it will then overtake Germany as the largest country in Europe. With all the political ramifications that this will have on voting rights within the European Parliament. We all know what will happen then: Islam-friendly laws will be demanded, and the Turks will ride roughshod over the rest of the declining 'Christian' population!
8. Apart from all this. We have already seen this year the European electorates in France and the Netherlands reject the constitution for Europe. This was because they don't like the pace of enlargement and change within Europe, and are certainly against Turkey's accession. After previous enlargements, there has been no period of consolidation. It is essential that there be such a period; otherwise, the European project is destined to fail.
9. Regardless of what the liberal media tell us, Turkey has so, so far to go to give women equal rights, to say nothing of writers freedom of expression, or rights to gays.
I could go on and on. I shan't. I'll stop there, for I feel that the list is long enough. You get my drift.
Just to say this, though: I don't believe in the 'secular' state of Turkey. Kemalism brought one about, yes; but it has only been held together by military and police force. What's going to happen when they will be set free because of European laws. My guess is that there is a strong fundamentalist element within that country; and this group will come to the fore after it's allowed in. At the moment, they are largely gagged. We'll see what they'll do when they are given the freedom of Europe!
No matter what Turkey 'fesses up to, no matter how many EUrabia hurdles they clear, no matter how many Churches they restore, no matter how many Christians, minorities & unbelievers they stop oppressing they should never be allowed into the EU.
Jack Straw is an asshole.
He actually believes that Al Qaeda will be impressed by bringing Turkey into the EU.
Not even the most educated Jihadi could mistake Allah's command for all mankind to be bought under Sharia Law within the Caliphate with membership of the "corrupt & diseased" monstrosity of the EU.
How naive is the Foreign Secretary, really?
Does he actually think that the Jihad will cease & they will all adopt civilised, pluralistic views? That they will become bastions of multiculturalism?
The only time I would ever consider Turkish entry into the EU as an option was if Great Britain left the EU & reinstated our border security & integrity.
Yet again (& again & again) the Emporers of Europe are not listening to the people of Europe.
When will their intellectual arrogance stop?
Just to mention one idea that some french people did throw, that may lead to a "wild" referendum about Turkey:
On each Euro banknote, you'll find a map of Europe. On the lower right corner of it, you can see Turkey.
The proposition is that, if you're against Turkey joining the EU, just make a cross with a red pen on that bit of every banknote that passes through your wallet.
Of course, it is slightly illegal to "degrade" a banknote - but here the degradation is so minor that its value is safe, and it will still be accepted by shops. But since politicians seems to have trouble listening to our voices, maybe they wont be blind to what's written on money. Maybe. If enough notes are "crossed"...
(For a page in French regarding this idea, check http://www.france-echos.com/actualite.php?cle=6929 )
Holy Cross Church on Akdamar island - been there! I'm pleased it is being restored. I've also been to Ani - a ghost town right on the Armenian border (watching them watching us!), which has some beautiful churches.
Despite having some very happy memories of my trips to Turkey - not least the Van cats - I've changed my mind about wanting them in the EU. I used to think it was better to have them in the tent pissing out rather than outside the tent pissing in. But the arguments against, already listed in comments on this thread are overwhelming. There really isn't anything in it for us, and too much to lose.
Much as I love Turkish restaurants, much as I like a chat with the Turkish florist in the next street, I'm not keen on having loads of Turks come to live here. The experience of Germany, for example the recent spate of honour killings, seems to indicate that, away from the enforced secularism of the homeland, and in a more liberal and democratic country, Turks revert to their illiberal Islamic ways. Democracy is not good for Islam.
Holy Cross Church on Akdamar island - been there! I'm pleased it is being restored. I've also been to Ani - a ghost town right on the Armenian border (watching them watching us!), which has some beautiful churches.
Despite having some very happy memories of my trips to Turkey - not least the Van cats - I've changed my mind about wanting them in the EU. I used to think it was better to have them in the tent pissing out rather than outside the tent pissing in. But the arguments against, already listed in comments on this thread are overwhelming. There really isn't anything in it for us, and too much to lose.
Much as I love Turkish restaurants, much as I like a chat with the Turkish florist in the next street, I'm not keen on having loads of Turks come to live here. The experience of Germany, for example the recent spate of honour killings, seems to indicate that, away from the enforced secularism of the homeland, and in a more liberal and democratic country, Turks revert to their illiberal Islamic ways. Democracy is not good for Islam.
Hugh wrote:
"2) Hagia Sophia to be turned into a working church, with the huge green flag of Islam hung across it taken permanently down. Other still-existing churches to be opened as well, and refurbished by the state. "
By doing so, you would be giving those that want the mosques of Cordoba and Granada returned to Islam. Religious freedom is one thing, but I tell Hugh what the late pope John Paul II told the Spanish Muslims that had demanded to pray to Allah in Catholic cathedrals: accept history.
I am usually against referenda (I generally have low expectations when it comes to the judgement and enlightenment of the ordinary citizen), but this is a subject that is serious enough to be voted by all European citizens, particularly because it will affect them from a social, religious and demographic point of view in a matter of a few decades. Shame on any politician that wants to impose something that the European vote would clearly reject.
Cordoba:
First, the Romans built a pagan temple here, on the right bank of the Guadalquivir River, on which Cordoba was the highest navigable point. After the fall of the Roman Empire, the new Germanic masters of Spain (the Visigoths) replaced it with the Christian church of Saint Vincent. When the Arabs conquered the peninsula in the early 8th century, they tore down the church and began building their great mosque
http://www.andalucia.com/accounts/cordoba.htm
Faqi asks:
I for one, cannot understand why the EU needs Turkey at all to join them. …. Why does Europe want to commit "HARA-KIRI"? I find it so hard to understand.”
Please do not confuse Europe with the EU.
The former is 1500 years old reality with civilizational, religious, ethnic, historical and national dimensions while the former is a project conceived by elites animated by an ideology deeply hostile to these dimensions. For the past four decades the elites have been busy removing Europe from the self-perception of European peoples and replacing it with the new “progressive” and “historically inevitable” reality of the EU. The elites had considerable success, but their work is not yet complete. Bringing Turkey into EU, (or smuggling it into Europe) would be the greatest triumph for these treacherous elites.
No Faqi, Europe doesn’t want to commit Hara-Kiri as you say. It is EU who hopes to strangle Europe with Turkey.
Hagia Sophia was the main church in the city, Constantinople, that for a thousand years was the largest, richest, and most important city in Christendom. From 1453 until the 1930s, it was used as a mosque. It then became, not a church, but a museum. It has unique importance.
The mosque or mezquita in Cordoba is a different matter. It has architectural significance, but it was not the main mosque, in the main Muslim city, for a thousand years. It was built on the site of a Christian church that the Muslims destroyed. It was a mosque not for a thousand years, but was just begun to be built inthe late 8th century, and it took 200 years to complete, and the site was retaken, and the mosque ceased to be a mosque, in 1236. In other words, this mosque was not the First Mosque in all dar al-Islam, but for a few hundred years merely the most important mosque, built over the ruins of a Christian church, in Islamic Spain. After Cordoba was re-taken by the Christians, they built a church within the mosque, and it has been operating as a church ever since. Until recent decades there were no Muslims, or hardly any, in Cordoba.
But the history of Hagia Sophia is quite different. Until this century there were many Christians -- Constantinople was 50% non-Muslim in 1914 -- who might have attended what was, until the 1930s (when Ataturk felt sufficiently strong to transform the structure from a mosque to a museum), a mosque.
And now Turkey is trying to become a member of what is, after all, a non-Muslim community. Spain already allows mosque after mosque to open -- can anyone forget the ominous words of the various Muslim spokesmen who opened the new mosque in Grenada just 2-3 years ago, calling for the destruction of the economies of the Infidels within Europe? Why should Spain need to demonstrate further its good will? Turkey, however, has not exactly encouraged the opening of new churches, has done nothing to make non-Muslims feel safer or apostates from Islam feel that they can, without harm, proclaim their embrace of Christianity or another belief or disbelief?
And besides, Turkey is being asked to demonstrate its goodwill, if it wishes to join the E.U., the heir to Western Christendom. Spain is not trying to join the Arab League, and has no obligation to demonstrate anything -- beyond what it already has, which is altogether too much goodwill, amounting to appeasement, in both its foreign and domestic policy.
The situations, and the buildings involved, are quite different.
Eschwapp:
I have seen this letter and I suggest people copy the text into a file on their computer (e.g. a Word file) in case the site goes down. I have referred to this letter several times in discussion groups.
Interested:
I agree with you completely. I too have made a 180 degree turnaround on Turkey’s entry into the EU.
well i have listed a couple of times what i think turkey will have to do in order to enter the eu. but i must say the hagia sophia thing is new to me. i would not say it making it back to a church was a requirement to eu entry
But as to the cyprus issue - turkey does still not recognise the non muslim part of cyprus - and the rest of the world still does not recognise the muslim part
This is surely one issue that must be resolved before any thought of eu entry for turkey can be considered
Turkey is the Sick Man of Europe. Now they want to cough on everyone. This just won't work.
The issues of accountability for past atrocities have been very adequately mentioned in other postings. The Turkish denials do not bode well for the type of open society that the EU espouses. The acid test of Turkish membership in the EU would be for any citizen from another EU country to be able to settle, live and work in Turkey and to feel completely safe and at home in doing so, no matter what their religion, marital status, sexual preference and so forth ... Not just in Istanbul or Ankara or any large city but anywhere in the country. That's years away from happening, if ever.
By doing so, you would be giving those that want the mosques of Cordoba and Granada returned to Islam.
Um... wasn't at least one of those already a church when the Moors invaded Spain?
Not that it matters to the Mobots... once any territory was been under Muslim control, it must always be under Muslim control. That's why Bin Laden said that the Jihad would not end in "palestine" but continue until southern Spain, northern India, etc. were back in the Ummah.
Mark:
Good points for the case against Turkey in the EU. They are concisely and well put. I recommend everyone from Europe use Mark's post as a basis, to frame a letter to your representative in parliament and your MEP, without delay.
The Jihad against Europe, that came to an end at the Gates of Vienna in 1683, was on two fronts. These two were the Austrian and the Spanish fronts. It is interesting to note that these same two fronts have been re-opened.
It's nice to be able to read the comments such as here or elsewhere on the internet, thanks for unearthing the real thoughts of some of the christian world behind the mask.
First, you guys can continue dreaming about converting Aya Sofya (Hagia Sophia) back to a Church but sorry it won't happen. The West put together it's forces to finish off the sick man of Europe once and for all (very civilized) but no it did not happen. Hagia Sophia is still very Turkish and yes it still has the banners of Islam. You guys have been scered of muslims since the days of pope urban II, he scared westerners with his lies and too long has passed since then and now it's engraved in your culture. It's a pity you don't have the tolerant culture to live with other cultures as muslims did for centuries, no wonder you don't want Turkey to join the EU. Don't start with tolerance in Holland, we know they tolerate other things such as drugs, sex, and gays but not other cultures.
Let me explain why Turkey wants to join EU, and why it is not hesitant as the minority while the whole continent is scared to live with another religion. The west has seen east as enemy for quite a long time and they their strategy is colonizing and asimilating others. Turkey wants to end this enmity and hate. You want to fight us and make the Hagia Sophia Christian again, we want to fight your hate and enmity and teach you some love and tolerance. Guess who will win in the end?
As for the Armenian allegations, nobody who knows some history, and especially Turks who also lived the massacres committed by Armenians (and Bulgarians as well) will accept that. Well I had a history teacher whose grandparents were killed by Armenians along with the other folks in their village. Have you heard of exchanges of children between Turkish and Armenian militia? What does this suggest? A one sided genocide or a conflict? Believe me we have as much sad stories as those unfortunate Armenian guys who lived with us in harmony until their bigger brothers decided to get rid of us and provoked them. You guys are predisposed to accept Armenian allegations because, uh, do I need to say, you are Christians as well?
Well, the way to find out the truth is not thruough politics, parliaments etc. That's the way Armenian diaspora is forcing it expecting some sympathy from their brethren. But the correct way to find out is science, is not it? Why has not there been enough scientific inquiries into the matter? If balanced historical, anthropological and archeological studies are conducted to find out the truth, they will discover that Turks and Kurds were killed by the thousands by Armenians, who by the way helped the advancing armies of Russia.
You can insist on your bigotry, but hey there are those who prefer dialogue and who know history is filled with bloodshed by many nations and it's about time we learn to live together. You may chooese to bomb all islamic countries for the sake of the civilization, and yes that should tell something about how civilized indeed it is.
Aegean:
I'm always impressed by tolerance, spoken or even better when practised. It is afterall the hallmark of civilised humans. So when are churches, synagogues and temples going to be built in Saudi Arabia?
You state- "First, you guys can continue dreaming about converting Aya Sofya (Hagia Sophia) back to a Church but sorry it won't happen."
Now why is that impossible? Aya Sofya was the centre of Eastern Christianity until it was forcibly destroyed as such by muslim invaders. As you so admirably point out, tolerance is what distinguishes Turkey from Europe. Surely you can show that tolerance by allowing Aya Sofya to become the church that it formely was.
Another thing that comes from your post is you consider Europe to be full of "hate and enmity". So why is Turkey so keen to join a club of "hate and enmity". What is in it for Turkey? If it is to teach Europeans about tolerance, you can do so by example at home, without joining the club of "enmity and hate".
Aegean's posting above is telling. It should be studied. This is what Turkey, so-called secular Turkey, Kemalist Turkey, can offer by way of a representative voice, after 80 years of constant pressure to constrain Islam. That.
If those opposed to Turkey's entry into the E.U. seek support, they can find it in that posting above. Incredible -- or rather, not. But important nonetheless.
Well Well. Talking about tolerance all right. So you think Turks destroyed Aya Sofya? That suits well to general conceptions, or the image I shold say about the "barbarian"(oooh) Turks many have in their minds. But if you were one of the lucky people to visit the Aya Sofya you would know that the Christian engravings were kept pristine although they were delicately covered with a new coating. We were sensitive enough not to hurt it let alone destroy. I see that you fail to see the issue from the other side's point of view. As the new rulers in this beautiful city Ottomans were right to turn the religious symbol of the city into a revered mosque so that it would be known Istanbul was a muslim city henceforth. So did the christians do in cities they conquered, eh? After all we have provided security for those who remained inside their homes and chruches, not massacred people as crusaders did in the holy city of Jerusalem. But I see people with PhD in front of their names who can't comprehend Saladin, but then I was not expecting anyways.
And practice tolerance indeed we did. There has been tolerance in my country for many centuries, or else you would not see chuch, mosque and synagogue side by side in many cities. When European countries decided to get rid of it's jewish minorities we provided them home. I'll also tell you about the Habib Neccar mosque in Antioch, originally a church and named after an early christian by muslims. Are there such places in Spain with a name like Omar church? I can only wonder. If you want to compete, let's compete in tolerance, it might be more fruitful than you think.
And what's in it for us? We're not ecxpecting financial benefits as much as Spain and Greece enjoyed, that's for sure. The thing is people are the enemy of what they don't know and if we intermingle a little bit you might start to learn how to live with others. You might even start to like them, but it comes with time, I don't expect any miracles there. I don't see why Europeans complain about immigrants many of whom they once ruled, they are just returning your visit guys. They are just returning your visit.
To Albion-- It's my personal opinion that the Rt Hon Mr Jack Straw has Submitted, but is afraid to admit it! Just kidding. He's just an obedient Dhimmi.
To Dr Pepper--I couldn't agree more. I look forward to the day when we don't have to discuss Hagia Sophia's restoration because it's in Constantinople, not Istanbul!
Make no mistake Hugh. Turkey is a secular country all right, in governance. Most of the people are Muslim, you know that right? What might come you as a surprise is that Islam does not prescribe a form of governance. Democracy suits very well for us, and first experiments did not start with Ataturk. They started earlier in 19th century. Oh yes, Ataturk was a great men who could see what Churchill failed to understand about Turks in Gallipoli. Bitter lesson for him I would say, and some guys still keep dreaming after all that time. Learning deficiency I guess. Hello EU capitals, this is Istanbul.
And the part "after 80 years of constant pressure to constrain Islam" does not mean anything to me. How would you feel if someone said the same thing about Christianity? Can you see what I mean? The idea in democratic form of government is not about pressuring any religion or ethnic groups, isn't that so? You seem to be confused about secularism, it's not about constraining anyone, it's just keeping things separate. Oh well, I can't educate you guys all alone, that is enough reason for us to join the EU. By the way, I don't believe the EU accession will happen in the future although a positive outcome may result on October 3rd. I am not sure the union bicycle will continue it's path 10 years down the road. Ooops, I said that did not I. May be with some help from Armstrong guys EU can pedal longer, they helped starting the tour anyways (to constrain German steel industry after the 2nd WW, if you did not know)and they are leading the way. We’ll see.
And I see that some you guys can't see all the strategic reasons that lead Bush and Blair to fervently support Turkey's EU accession. What a pity. I don't expect Bush himself to understand, his original self is suited better for comedy than imitations on TV. But his advisors certainly are aware of where things are headed and what we promise for the EU.
- But mama, they are different from us.
- It's OK my kid, you won't be scared if you trust yourself.
Aegean--I suggest you (re)read this post from two days ago.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/008329.php
On the issue of Islam and democracy, one should remember that the former is a divine and heavenly religion, while the latter is a form of government developed by humans. The main purposes of religion are faith (iman), servanthood to God (“ubudiyyah), knowledge of God (ma“rifah), and beautiful actions (ihsan). The Qur’an, in its hundreds of verses, invites people to the faith and worship of the True (al-Haqq). It also asks people to deepen their servanthood to God in a way that they may gain the consciousness of ihsan. “To believe and do good deeds,” is among the subjects that Qur’an emphatically stresses. It also frequently reminds people that they must develop a conscious relationship with God and act as if they see God, or as if they are seen by God.
Democracy itself is not a unified system of government; it is rarely presented without an affiliation. In many cases, another term, such as social, liberal, Christian, or radical, is added as a prefix. In some cases, even one of these forms of democracy may not consider the other as democracy.
However, in our days, democracy is frequently mentioned in its unaffiliated form, ignoring the plural nature of democracies. In contrast to this, many speak of religion as tantamount to politics, which is, in fact, only one of the many faculties of religion. Such a perception has resulted in a range of positions on the subject of the reconciliation of Islam and democracy. Even if these terms are not seen as being opposites, it is evident that they are different in important ways.
According to one of these conceptualizations, Islam is both a religion and a political system. It has expressed itself in all fields of life, including the individual, family, social, economical and political spheres. From this angle, to confine Islam to only faith and prayer is to narrow the field of its interaction and its interpenetration. Many ideas have been developed from this perspective and more recently these have often caused Islam to be perceived as an ideology. According to some critics, such an approach made Islam merely one of many political ideologies. This vision of Islam as a totalizing ideology is totally against the spirit of Islam, which promotes the rule of law and openly rejects oppression against any segment of society. This spirit also promotes actions for the betterment of society in accordance with the view of the majority.
Those who follow a more moderate pattern also believe that it would be much better to introduce Islam as a complement to democracy instead of presenting it as an ideology. Such an introduction of Islam may play an important role in the Muslim world through enriching local forms of democracy and extending it in such a way that helps humans develop an understanding of the relationship between the spiritual and material worlds. I believe that Islam also would enrich democracy in answering the deep needs of humans, such as spiritual satisfaction, which cannot be fulfilled except through the remembrance of the Eternal One.
Yes, in the Islamic world and particularly in my country, Turkey, it is painful to see how those who speak on Islam and democracy and claim to pronounce in the name of religion have come to the understanding that Islam and democracy cannot be reconciled. This perception of mutual incompatibility extends to some pro-democracy people as well. The argument that is presented is based on the idea that the religion of Islam is based on the rule of God, while democracy is based on the view of humans, which opposes it. In my understanding, however, there is another idea that has become a victim of such a superficial comparison between Islam and democracy. The phrase, “Sovereignty belongs to the nation unconditionally,” does not mean that sovereignty has been taken from God and given to humans. On the contrary, it means that sovereignty is entrusted to humans by God, that is to say it has been taken from individual oppressors and dictators and given to the community members. To a certain extent, the era of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs of Islam illustrates the application of this norm of democracy. Cosmologically speaking, there is no doubt that God is the sovereign of everything in the universe. Our thoughts and plans are always under the control of the power of such an Omnipotent. However, this does not mean that we have no will, inclination or choice. Humans are free to make choices in their personal lives. They are also free to make choices with regard to their social and political actions. Some may hold different types of elections to choose lawmakers and executives. There is not only one way to hold an election; as we can see, this was true even for the Era of Bliss, the time of the Prophet of Islam, and during the time of the Four Caliphs, may God be pleased with them all. The election of the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, was different than that of the second Caliph, Umar. Uthman’s election was different from that of ’Ali, the fourth Caliph. God only knows the right method of election.
Moreover, democracy is not an immutable form of governing. Looking at the history of its development, one can see mistakes which are followed by changes and corrections. Some have even spoken of thirty types of democracy. Due to these changes in the evolution of democracy, some have looked at this system with hesitancy. Maybe this is a reason why the Muslim world did not view democracy with great enthusiasm. Besides this lack of enthusiasm, the violence of despotic rulers in the Islamic world, who see democracy as a threat to their despotism, presents another obstacle for democracy in Muslim nations.
Aegean even though you are full of shit you are still entitled to speak freely in the west, if only otheres were able to speak freely in your country. Even though you have every right to go by whatever name you wish I do wish you would not misrepresent yourself with the name aegean. The aegean sea is where European civilization first sprang and there is no connection between it and Turkey. The entire aegean belongs to Greece. Sure Turkey borders the aegean and has a coast that was ethnically cleansed of greeks early in the 20the century but it is not a part of the aegean. Please I would prefer you picked a more fitting name that describes what you are about like"follower of the pedophile" or "member of the cult of mass murder"
The Mohammedan posters above:
"Islam is both a religion and a political system."
You keep your religion and we keep our political system.
"lack of enthusiasm, the violence of despotic rulers in the Islamic world, who see democracy as a threat to their despotism..."
Show me one country on planet Islam that beats a western democracy and I'll show you a flying pig.
Take your caliphate and rub it. It belongs on the scrap-heap of history!
Turkey is- not- a total cesspool because of huge loans from the EU, which it never can, and never will repay.
We can see Islamic tolerance every day, with every bomb, with every atrocity, with every head that is chopped off, with every suicide bombing and with every attack on infidels.
We have enough Turks in Europe, and too many Mohammedans. We want less.
Less Islam for means more security, more freedom, a much better life for infidels. Keep Turkey out of Europe!
Aegean posted: So you think Turks destroyed Aya Sofya?
Read my post again and see what I wrote. Aya Sofya is no longer the centre of Eastern Christianity as it once was. But you knew that, and yet could not resist misrepresentation, for you yourself wrote, "First, you guys can continue dreaming about converting Aya Sofya (Hagia Sophia) back to a Church but sorry it won't happen". If you think that maintaining Aya Sofya for tourism to earn extra cash, constitutes tolerance, then you have a lot to learn about tolerance. In fact I dont think muslims know what tolerance is unless it is on islamic terms. So when can we expect churches and synagogues in Saudi Arabia? Why is Turkey not asking the Saudus to allow this to happen? How about preaching tolerance to the 50 odd muslim nations where Christians are persecuted, and churches are not allowed to be maintained as places of Christian worship, rather then just tourist attractions?
It is also easy to tolerate Christians and Jews, or non-muslims for that matter, once they have been virtually eliminated from muslim majority nations. I'm fairly certain that Pakistan and Bangladesh will also become tolerant of Christians and Hindus, when there are virtually none in their respective countries. Muslims are the biggest bigots of all as they practice it, as enjoined by their religion, rather then just talk of it.
As for European fear of the East - no one on this blog is in "fear" of Easterners in general. Typical misrepresentation on your part - trying to turn an ideological and cultural issue to a racial one. Hindus and Buddhists pose no threat to security, and readily assimilate; it is the large presence of muslims already present in Europe, that are a matter concern for the wellbeing democracy as well as security. It is for this reason that Turkey's presence in the EU at this stage of its development, is not conducive to peace and security. So what is in it for Turkey to join the European club of "hate and enmity"?
What I find interesting, that despite evidence, you are unable to accept that Turkey was directly responsible for the genocide of Armenians. It is a real shame for Turkey and Turks, and your continued denial makes it worse.
Aegean's comments, along with Willbebetter's show precisely why it will be a bad thing for Europe and the Europeans to allow Turkey to accede to the EU, for these comments encapsulate attitudes and a worldview which are diametrically opposed to our own.
Muslims, I firmly believe, will never come to understand what democracy truly means, since they cannot comprehend one simple concept: the separation of religion and politics, the separation of church, or mosque, and state. Of course, the reason why they cannot comprehend this separation is because their religion teaches them that politics and religion may not be, and cannot be, separated. So, all power, to a Muslim, rests with Allah; all power, to a democrat, rests with the people. In Islam, Allah dictates their politics; in a democracy, it's the people who dictate them.
To perceive each other's differences, and to understand them, is not in and of itself to dislike or hate one another. It should just be a question of using one's intelligence and foresight to see the dangers that lie ahead of us in this union of opposites.
Moreover, this union, if it does come about - and God forbid that it should! - is certainly not going to be a marriage made in heaven! It will be nothing other than an 'arranged marriage', a 'marriage of convenience' for the plenipotentiaries.
But these plenipotentiaries will certainly not be speaking for the people of Europe. Public opinion in Europe is firmly against. From my readings, and from my understanding of the situation, there are many in Turkey, too, who do not relish this 'marriage'. I read only yesterday in the German press - the German press are generally more forthright than the British press on matters of dissent - that many academics, economists, and 'men of religion' in Turkey are four-square agin Turkey's accession; and many fear that it will be Turkey's downfall. This is the quote I read in Die Welt by these dissenters in Turkey: Im Westen liegt der Untergang der Türkei!
I would add to this. I would say: Im Westen liegt der Untergang der Türkei; in der Türkei liegt der Untergang Europas!
By the way, marriages that are not based on love and mutual respect usually end up in the divorce courts, for they are like dwellings build on the shifting sands. Expect, too, that this marriage of convenience will eventually follow a well-trodden path - to the divorce courts!
By the way, you are all cordially invited to join in my blog. Please come over and help me get it going. You'll all like the subject matter. It can be found here: http://librabunda.blogspot.com
Turks have traditionally been associated with Islamic Jihad and its butchery in Europe and North India.
When it comes to Islam what the West has been seeing as secularism for 50 years has been masking the Islamic takeover.
This was finally demonstrated when the Iraq military plans went awy as a result of a last-minute refusal to allow through a division of troops. as a result, the troops were stretched too thin in Iraq resulting in higher human life losses.
The much touted Israeli-Turkey military ties are also on a downturn.
The best would be to support the formation of a Kurdish state.
Please read writers other than Spencer and like-minded people if you want to see the reality.
Don't accept everything that your governments, media and other institutions prepare and present to you as the truth. Keep in your mind that Islam is being propagandized as the new 'threat' for western democracies after the collapse of iron veil to keep their public in line.
Real world is different than you think. Leave your prejudice and try to understand it.
I was not expecting a welcome party at a hate web site, but insults and denigrations only show the character of people who write them, and they belong to them; I am away from such insults and denigrations.
The problem with western hatred against our religion is that although the Muslims respect Christianity as a religion and Jesus as a prophet and never denigrate them, many Christians love denigrating our religion and prophet. There will be some reconciliation when you can at the very least acknowledge the fact that our prophet is one who came after Abraham, Moses and Jesus and I whish you learn to respect him, you don’t need to convert or anything. Your religion is yours, ours is ours. We respect the pope and other leaders of yours, and despite the scandals in Catholic Church no Muslim in his right mind tries to establish a link between pedophilia and Christianity or teachings of Jesus. That shows our character, your comments and efforts to present Islam as if it were related to terrorism show yours.
Despite the economically and militarily inferior situation of the present day Islamic countries, and despite the efforts to show Islam as incompatible with democracy and the efforts to equate it with terrorism, the number of conversions to our religion shows, I believe, the true appeal of it and it is indeed alarming to guys like you. So the West wants to bring democracy to Middle East. I believe we heard that story when the Brits and others brought civilization to other parts of the world. Remember the white man’s burden? Ironically, civilization and democracy almost always comes with bombs and slaughter of innocent lives.
This brings us to the question of allowing the US troops to attack Iraq from our country. I was jubilant the day our parliament rejected the US offer. Democracy is a great regime, and today ours is working better than the one in the US, we selected our president with the popular vote, counted the votes the way it should be and ousted the old politicians we did not like. So now you don’t like a democratic decision because it is not favoring your opinion. Well, in my opinion there were other ways to oust Saddam and his regime, it was not necessary to bomb the whole country and kill upwards of 100 thousand people. Of course we would not help the killing of thousands of people, we should not have allowed it if they were attacking a Christian country either, it does not matter.
Secondly, had we allowed the US to attack from north, then they would have allowed us to attack the 5000 or so Kurdish terrorists based on Kandil Mountains. That would risk inciting hatred in our Kurdish brethren, which would be a disaster so I am again happy we did not allow it. Don’t tell me a Kurdish is a lot different then a Turkish in a westerner’s eye, it’s just part of a strategic plan to divide our country. In fact we are a more integrated country then the US. Our presidents, ministers of interior etc. are ethnic Kurds, Kurds do not constitute half of the prison population in Turkey, you don’t see distinctions in films (movies if you prefer) as in black and white movies in the US, and what is more important you don’t see different mosques for Turks and Kurds. We are not racists guys, that is the reason Turks as a minority were able to rule a harmonious state (not an empire) composed of many ethnicities and religons.
We are fighting just a bunch of brainwashed terrorists, and America is not helping us fight them while they claim they are fighting terrorists in Iraq. Interesting, is not it? Another interesting fact about PKK terrorism is that there are Armenian people among them whose corpses are captured by our military.
As to Armenian genocide legations; I asked: “But the correct way to find out is science (not politics), is not it?” I don’t see any hands, who’s gonna answer? Anyone?
If you understand what you read, I said I was not sure if EU would continue for a long time, so joining such a club is not of paramount importance. What I care more about is the ever slight possibility of teaching some people in the EU and at this site some better understanding of “others”, so that you might start to get along with thy neighbor, as your teachings suggest.
By the way, use some dictionary:
Destroy: do away with, cause the destruction or undoing of, destroy completely; damage irreparably.
willbebetter,
“...read writers other than Spencer and like-minded people if you want to see the reality.
Don't accept everything that your governments, media and other institutions prepare and present to you as the truth. Keep in your mind that Islam is being propagandized as the new 'threat' for western democracies ...
Real world is different than you think.“
You seem to get things the wrong way around.
We don’t read writers like Spencer because we “want to see the reality”. The reality is screaming into our faces and only willfully blind and deaf can not grasp it. The dreadfulness, misery and sickness of Mohammedanism is impossible to overlook unless one is an absolute idiot, or in a state of a terminal denial. Or a Moslem. (Well, after first two qualifications the last one may be quite redundant.)
Writers like “Spencer and like-minded people” only express eloquently, correctly and truthfully what is evident to the rest of us. We read them not so much in order to learn about what Islam is (as if that is not clear after 1400 years of its sickening history and an elementary introduction to Koran or hadiths , but to see our own thoughts and feelings so well expressed.
And as for Islam “being propagandized as the new 'threat' for western democracies” – there is nothing new about that threat. That threat has been with Christians, Indians, Buddhists and Jews from the very beginning of that macabre cult.
“Real world is different than you think”.
Oh really? We think what we see - get used to it. And we don’t like being told, especially by Moslems, what to think, or what is good for us. And having Turkey in Europe is as bad for us today as it has always been in the past.
Incidentally, it is not our governments, media and other institutions that warn us about islam, as you absurdly suggest. On the contrary, they are doing everything to present islam as our great friend - even benefactor. It is the man on the street who still remembers the good old, free and safe days before the Moslem invasion of Europe and knows what precious things have been lost to the creeping dhimmitude in the past four decades. It is him who increasingly loudly protests.
With God’s help he may one day say “enough is enough” start the reconquista of the West and kick out the invader and hang a few traitors. It has been done before…
Aegean posted:I was not expecting a welcome party at a hate web site.
Aegean, this site is not a hate web site but a detestation of the hatred of infidels that is inherent in islam. Read the koran and it becomes abundantly apparant of the hatred that is in it for non-muslims. Please dont try Taqqiya on this site - it has no chance of success. I hate all totalitarian systems of ideology, and that includes Nazism, racism and islam.
You may well respect Christianity and that respect is deserved, as Jesus taught "love thy neighbour". To an athiest/agnostic such as myself, Jesus was a man full of love and compassion, even for those who crucified him - the ultimate expression of love. On the other hand, I can never respect islam as revealed in the koran, for it is an ideology that is based on hatred of non-mulims. It advocates killing non-muslims, particularly men, seizing their property, women and children. Mohammed himself practised such barbarity. It is therefore difficult for me to accept mohammed as a holy man. I would ofcourse accept that he was a brilliant military strategist and leader of men in war. But a prophet or holy man - no, that is inconceivable.
You say "we respect the pope". I'm sure you yourself do, but was it not a Turk who tried to murder Pope John Paul II?
As for sexual scandals - there are plenty of sexual scandals in the madrassas of this world. However that is the nature of man, and I for one, would never associate it with religion, unless there was an explicit link. I'm surprised that you stooped to the trite.
Anyway, let us carry on.
You wrote, "Your religion is yours, ours is ours".
Precisely, and I agree with that. Your religion is yours and your society reflects that. Our religion is quite different from yours and our society reflects that as well. It may have some marginal commonality with islam, in as much that you claim the same Jewish prophets. However the interpretations are quite different, and this is crucial. Moreover, they have developed along quite different lines. As such, your society will feel uncomfortable in ours, and we will feel will uncomfortable with you as guests in our society. This is not an atmosphere in which you can teach us of the wonderful principles of tolerance that you are so keen that we imbibe from Turkey.
I respect Turkey's decision not to allow US troops to use Turkey as a launch point to Iraq. That is Turkey's sovereign right and if the US decides to retaliate financially, it is Amereica's sovereign right as well. Now don't you think it is our sovereign right as Europeans, to invite or not invite Turkey to be part of the European group of nations? This is particularly so as Turkey is really not a part of the Judeao-Christian heritage. Why do you find this sovereign right unacceptable, but insist that we recognise Turkey's sovereign right to make decisions that are in her interests?
As an aside - why do you continually bring up Moses, Abraham etc. I really do not care much about them as they are long dead. What concerns me is that muslims are killing non-muslims, Christians and Hindus, and targetting civilians in particular. As I write, the atrocity in Bali is making the news. All this is being done in the name of islam. That is real hatred. Now you may claim that the terrorists are brainwashed, but I will say that they are merely following the teachings of the koran to the letter. So when you come and accuse this site of being hate filled, perhaps you need to address those who actually practice their hatred - such as the islamic terrorists. Have you tried to reach out to the jihadis and tell them it is wrong to kill civilians? Dont you think it would be better if you spent your time doing that.
Now to conversions from one faith to another. Why does the koran sanction the murder of those who give up islam? Don't yuou think it is the right of every human to decide which faith he/she follows. This is quite central to European civilisation. Now you may agree, but what about the koran? Is the koran right or wrong on this matter. This is important, as many ex-muslims live in mortal fear of being murdered by any passing muslim, even while they live in the West.
Tolerance is easy to talk about but where is the tolerance in practice? We in the West allow mosques to be built without any hindrance. When is Saudi Arabia going to allow churches and temples in Mecca or Medina, or is that just another pipe dream, such as wishing to see Hagia Sophia as a Christian place of worship. If Turkey wishes to be a part of the Judeao-Christian heritage that is the EU, it has as a first step, to recognise that it perpetrated a genocide of the Armenians, and to allow Hagia Sophia to be a church once again. Admitting one's mistakes is one of the hallmarks of European civilisation. As long as you deny the Armenian genocide, you shame yourself and do not deserve to be a part of any civilised group.
You seem to be sensible sort of person. Read the koran without prejudice and see what a hate-filled treatise it is, then turn away from this ideology of hate before it consumes you. My very best wishes.
What I care more about is the ever slight possibility of teaching some people in the EU and at this site some better understanding of “others”, so that you might start to get along with thy neighbor, as your teachings suggest
You really think very highly of yourself, don\t you?
I suggest that before you attempt "teaching some people.." you find out how these people feel about being taught by someone like you and what they think about the stuff you want to teach them.
And BTW, *our teachings suggests* that we get along with our neighbour not through letting him in our home but by making good fences. And that is doubly important when the neighbour happens to be an old enemy.
Thomas:
What a great rebuke! Well said!
sheik yer'mami,
Thank you. I hope to, one day, be able to write as well as you do!
Thomas
Please read writers other than Spencer and like-minded people if you want to see the reality.
Don't accept everything that your governments, media and other institutions prepare and present to you as the truth. Keep in your mind that Islam is being propagandized as the new 'threat' for western democracies after the collapse of iron veil to keep their public in line.
Real world is different than you think. Leave your prejudice and try to understand it.
Posted by: wiilbebetter at October 1, 2005 11:42 AM
Thanks ever so much for the advice but relax, we only have to watch the news; local, national, international, all of which is egregiously left biased, to see what Islam is all about. Not a day goes by that a least a dozen heinous atrocties are mentioned (briefly and in very muted tones) and guess who the bad guys are? Muslims!!! Your pious muslim brothers, Islamic holy warriors, butcher hundreds or thousands of innocent people in their maniacal jihad to conquer the world and establish a global caliphate.
And furthermore, just to put your worried mind at ease, most of us here are well educated on the subject of Islam, either formally (university) or autodidactic. We have carefully studied Islam's canonical texts and we fully understand Islam's message: conquer and kill, convert, or dhimmify all non-muslims, seize their lands and wealth and distribute it among the ummah; enslave their women and children; re-establish the caliphate. Muslims are the rightful rulers of the world; they are superior because it says so in the Qur'an. It also instructs muslims to hate the infidels, not to befriend them, and-----you know the rest of the story as well as I do. There's no need to repeat it for the thousandth time. There are various techniques for accomplishing this daunting task; da'wa, infiltration, proliferation and jihad. I hate to tell you, but we know all about your death cult and we knew all about it long before we discovered this invaluable website.
For heaven's sake, don't you listen to what our dhimmi governments tell us about Islam?! Accoring to them (I'm speaking on behalf of the Great Satan), Islam is a "great religion of peace." I guess they think we're all blind and retarded. I can assure you that the U.S. government has nothing but flattering lies to tell about Islam and unfortunately, there are still some Americans who believe them. But we're working on that problem. We have learned the truth about Islam, but not from our news media or our governments. They prefer to lie about your horrid religion for some mystical reason, but they lie about many things.
All one needs to do is study the bloody 1400 year history of Islam to understand that it is a totalitarian, misogynic, predatory, anachronistic, retrograde, megalomaniacal nightmare. From the standpoint of a Christian, it is also heretical and satanically inspired.
For one, you guys could not answer my questions.
Two, you think you know about Islam but you don’t.
Three, you don’t even know how to discuss an issue, like saying it was a Turk who tried to kill the pope. What a fallacious way of thinking.
As a Muslim I don’t hate you but pity and I can only wish you find the true path but I am not expected to change your hearts. I did my job by making enough and decent explanations for those who might read this site. If Koran ordered the killing of civilians and the innocents like you said, you would not be living to write these hateful comments, the Ottomans would have taken care of you. But no it does not, so Ottomans lived and let others live and the Orthodox priests preferred to live under Ottoman rule rather than under Catholics.
The terrorist beef with the west is political, just read the three Al Qaeda demands and see the political nature of it. They just believe they are speaking with the language of the colonists: force. And they provide ammunition for you guys, they are more harmful to Islam than they are harmful for the west and you know that and you grab the opportunity to assault Islam for the deeds of some mutants, not real muslims.
Anyways, all I suggested was that it was possible to live in peace and harmony, and it will be so despite some marginal people like you. We will live in peace and harmony but you are scared of that, you prefer to destruct others. In the end bigots like you help us to know the wrong from the right, and also help the like of Spencer get rich, which is that he actually cares about.
Lastly, you will all discover the truth one day and I hope it is not too late for you by then. If you want to learn about Islam from a modern day Muslim thinker, rather than misrepresentations in the west you might want to take look at this site: http://en.fgulen.com/
Aegean:
Your questions were answered and the most charitable explanation I have is that you either did not read them or failed to understand them.
Are you now denying that a Turkish national tried to assassinate Pope John Paul II?
All this just indicates that even a supposedly educated person from an islamic background is unable to confront the truth. It is no surprise that you are unable to admit the genocide of Armenians. You should be ashamed of yourself.
My best wishes
Aegean:
From the home page of the site you linked, is this
The Muslims are those from whose tongues and hands other Muslims are safe and sound.
That speaks volumes. In any case what this one individual, probably a Sufi, thinks is not in question. It is what is written in the koran, and the way its is acted on by muslims around the world, that is under scrutiny. It is sad that yet again innocent non-muslims have been massacred by the followers of islam.
My advice to you is to get out of islam before its hatred devours you. Go over to Ali Sena's site and get some help.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
Not educated, but armed against Islam.
Islam is clear from all your false assumptions, negative images and lies. If you really want to learn something, I can provide you some readings. If not you can still ask people in your community who are converted to Islam.
In fact, I think some of you already know that, but cannot accept for some reason and since you don’t have anything against Islam other than lies, you are spreading the hate. Please don’t criticize Islam, but tell me about beauties of your religion if you practice any and enlighten me. Maybe in this way we can find good thinks to share. Hate brings more hate, enmity produce fight…
You claim you are well-educated, but I think you still need some history lesson. Let’s do an online activity. Please open up your web browser and type http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades then hit enter. Read this peace of information on crusades and learn about underlying causes of your enmity.
Now type http://members.aol.com/TeacherNet/World.html#British in your address bar and hit the enter button again. This is a good source about imperialism. You can learn how you Europeans “civilized” rest of the world between 17th and21st centuries. Some links are dead but alive ones are pretty enough. While you were reading think about that the countries that are producing terror are lived under the European rule during the imperialism age. Ask yourselves about what you might do those people during that era that they became like this.
Again type http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/us.html and find out who invented Taliban and el-qaide- or whatever. You can find similar documents if you make a goggle search. Ask yourselves how a bunch of guys located at an unknown mountain somewhere in Afganistan can lead such horrible terror activities. Forget the tales that your governments telling you on that. Remember they are the one who told you that saddam had WMD so they –sometimes- may lie and deceive people.
On the Armenian issue, first you are not at such position to judge others while you still have blood of innocent people in your hands. If you are trying to punish crimes against humanity, begin from yours. No need to go too much back in the time. Type this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/675945.stm and hit enter. Those people were killed with the consent of “democratic” western states. You didn’t do anything because they were Muslims.
Second, Armenians lived under Ottoman rule for centuries. If Ottoman rulers wanted them to erase from the surface of the world, they could do it easily. They did have time and power for that. Think about American Indians and ask yourselves why we didn’t do that not only to Armenians, but to other nations lived under our rule. I’ll give you a clue; remember that Ottomans were muslim, so it is related to Islam. I don’t expect you understand everything at once but try to comprehend as much as you can.
wiilbebette posted: If not you can still ask people in your community who are converted to Islam.
Or better still why dont you learn something about the malevolence of islam by learning from those who left islam. Try Ali Sena and see if you can defeat him on the subject. Let me know when your debate is, as I will like to see you take him on.
But even the texts of islam, horrid beyond imaginatuion as they are, are the issue. It is the behaviour of muslims as they go about killing non-muslims, as required by their evil allah. There is no point in declaring that it is a tiny handful of extremists. They are the ones who have the koran on their side.
Whichever lands muslims conquered, they initially terrorised the conquered population by mass murder and discrimination of the worst sort. Once the conquered had been subjugated, there was no further need to mass murder as the non-muslim population became a source of revenue, slavery, forced conscription to a slave army (janissaries) etc. Does that answer your question? It really is beyond me why muslims lie through their teeth. They seem to think that everyone is ignorant about islam and its malevolence to all non-muslims. Look around you and see the bloodshed being perpetrated by your brother muslims. They are even beheading Buddhists now.
What the muslim invaders did in India is beyond the barbarity of what happened to Jews in Germany in WWII. Absolutely beyond imagination, and the perpetrators were muslims, who had no reason to be in India in the first place. Got it.
Now go over to Ali Sena's site and learn something. Take him on in debate if you are brave enough. I very much doubt if you have the guts or the knowledge.
Best wishes and I hope you will leave islam, as it will be a blessing not just for you but for the rest of humanity.
willbebetter and Aegean
I'm sorry that I suggested that you leave islam. Though I'm certain that it is good for you spiritually and ethically, I had not considered that you would have to go into hiding in fear for your lives. Your canonical texts are quite clear on the punishment that has to be dealt out to those who leave islam.
I'm sad to say that the many who have left islam, are in deadly fear of their lives and their families, even while living in the West. It would be far worse for you if you are living in a muslim country.
Regardless, my best wishes to you both.
I hope you have learned your lesson. And I hope one day you will understand that it is better to love than to hate people. You could try, at the very least, to get along.