British mull discarding flag to avoid offending Muslims

Didn't this all happen bout 700 years ago (Crusades)? Get over it already.

OUTRAGEOUS!!

Maybe the muslims need to apologize for capturing white slaves from the British Isles.

Blacks (and their liberal plantation friends) in the US raise the issue of the Confederate flag from time to time. This "Rebel Banner" was the flag of the southern states, the Confederate State of America, during the Civil War (more accurately known as The War of Northern Aggression!)

Anyway, several states still have vestiges (some more, some less) of the banner in their state flags, and this is guaranteed to be exploited by the left in about every second or third election campaign.

A social group of rich restorers of vintage WWII aircraft used to be called "The Confederate Air Force" but had to change their name (or thought they had to) due to the negative connotation. They still put on quite an air show every year. They blow up a lot of dynamite and gasoline, bombing and strafing replicas of NAZI and Jap airfields, and make me proud to be an American and to have been related to some of the people who participated in the real thing.

I wonder if the planes will wear out before the show has to stop because it offends someone.

It doesn't seem right that prisoners' sensitivities should be accommodated so much. Just how many muslims are in British prisons anyway? Is it a sizable lot?

Re: "Doyle added that it was now time for England to find a new flag and a patron saint who is "not associated with our bloody past and one we can all identify with."

Sure - like Mohammed for example. Hey Doyle - why don't fly over to Toronto where you can kiss my ass.

After a day of mulling this over in quiet annoyance, I think it may actually be beneficial to the cause if they did ban my nations flag,the flag of my Forefathers, the Cross of St George.

I can think of no better way of instantly igniting the English than to take our flag, & to tell us our parents, our grandparents, our great grandparents etc etc, were nasty racist people who were entirely wrong in their allegiance to the flag, the emblem of our & their nation state.

Within the week hundreds of thousands - nay, dare I say millions of the Cross of St George would appear all over England.

What better way to demonstrate that we are at the mercy of an insipid forward column of Muslim soldiers, amply supported on their flanks by the Liberal PC Brigade & the Left Wing Respect Alliance, whose very aim is to change our flag, our nation state?

What better way of waking the little people from their slumber to see their immediate plight?

After decades of Empire apologists & those who see no value in England & Great Britains contribution to the modern world, this is the result.

Shame by proxy, transferring the "guilt" of yesteryear into a modern setting as an excuse & a mantra to surrender to a 7th century suicide death cult masquerading as religion.

Do it. Ban it. Make our day. The flag won't disappear, in fact it will be resurgent in the extreme.

The cross should remain on the Union Jack (and on on every other flag in the world where it already occurs). There are reasons for this.

- Historically, it is the flag of the country
- It represents the culture of the country
- Symbolically, it represents the effort required to serve a higher cause

St. George made that effort when he became a martyr. Not a "martyr" in the sense where one blows oneself and a busload of children up in order to lodge a complaint about some injustice. Rather, a martyr in the sense of living his faith and peacefully refusing to repudiate it, even when threatened at the point of a sword.

Those who demand change to the Union Jack should understand this before going any further. Such demands are a two-way street, and could easily be directed against other symbols. Those of states requesting entry into the EU, for instance.

http://dutchreport.blogspot.com/2005/02/dutch-flag-prohibited.html

Cals College in IJsselstein has prohibited two of it's students to have Dutch flags on their bags. The 16 year old boy and his friend where told by the director of their school that they "urgently should consider" to remove the Dutch flags from their bags, it could provoke other students, mainly Moroccan students. The two considered the urgent request of the school as a prohibition.

About a year ago, two girls in Sweden were sent home from school by the headmaster for wearing clothing displaying the Swedish flag, because it too contains a cross and it was deemed offensive to "other" students. Here is the link in Swedish:

http://expressen.se/index.jsp?a=139558

I'd never heard of the 'Council for the Advancement of Arab-British Understanding' until just now. Apparently its quite 'old' and 'large'. From its website:

CAABU is the oldest and largest organisation of its type in Europe having been set up in 1967. We strive to build on the historical, political & cultural links between the Arab world & Britain which are being eroded by misunderstanding & negative stereotyping

It appears that the misunderstanding is all on the British side, as is the negative stereotyping. Here's what Chris Doyle had to say just after September 11:

There are increasing signs of abuse and attacks directed against Arabs and Muslims not just in the United States, but also now in the United Kingdom. There is a responsibility on the part of the authorities to provide all protection necessary but, also public figures must make all efforts to emphasise the need not to denigrate Arabs and Muslims as a whole

I'm going to get myself a teeshirt made with a St. George's Cross on the front and a picture of a pig on the back, wander past the Finsbury Park Mosque and see what happens.

Britain is going the Indian way. In Kashmir for instance Indian flag was never flown atop govt. buildings for fears that the Ashoka chakra might provoke jehadis. I'm non-Christian Briton, but i'm fine with St.George.

Doyle added that it was now time for England to find a new flag and a patron saint who is "not associated with our bloody past and one we can all identify with."

Gee... how about Omar Bakri for our new patron saint?

wander past the Finsbury Park Mosque and see what happens.

Intrested... dont.

That sounds like a great idea, "interested".

However, a note of caution; avoid the Finsbury Park Mosque....the authorities will arrest you and force you into endless hours of obligatory "sensitivity training".

Or worse, they'll forbid you to eat bacon for the rest of your life.

As for the next "jesture" of dhimmitude likely comming down the pipeline? Calls to silence church bells. They're distracting, you see, because constructing home-made bombs requires total concentration!

Just ask Capt Hook!

It wasn't a work accident, it was the Angelus!!

"Chris Doyle, director of the Council for the Advancement of Arab-British Understanding.."
-- from the article above

Who pays Chris Doyle? How much?

Doyle added that it was now time for England to find a new flag and a patron saint who is "not associated with our bloody past and one we can all identify with."

Perhaps Muslims need to find a new Prophet, not associated with their bloody past. Jesus? Buddha? The late and great Ronnie Barker, who has sadly blown his last phantom raspberry and naffed orrff?

Albion is really on to something...Yes, ban the flag, in the most obsequious, yet public manor that you can. Loudly proclaim how ashamed you are of England and it's history, and how wrong it would be for you to display the St George's Cross (or the Union Jack, for that matter) knowing how the cross natually offends your most honored citizens.

From the article above: “Chris Doyle, director of the Council for the Advancement of Arab-British Understanding, said Tuesday the red cross was an insensitive reminder of the Crusades.”

No, this shouldn’t be considered an ‘insensitive reminder’ but considered more of a reminder to those Brits whose long-gone relatives fought and shed their blood and died in order to save their lands from the threat of an advancing Muslim army of the time. While Muslims of today may take offense, the British who sport this should do so proudly and remind the Muslims who find it offensive that they may someday find themselves up against another crusade if they and their fellow Muslims continue to follow the jihadist mentality that is so prevalent in the world today, yet not in line with the modern, civilized world.

The British are well within their rights to show it off proudly because it’s part of their history, their culture, and they are where they are now due to those who came before them. In fact, I would imagine that the symbol was adopted in the first place as a constant reminder to Britain’s future populace that they had to stand up to the aggressive ‘religion of peace’ those many years ago and may have to face the aggression once again, someday.

Perhaps we here in the states should begin yelling at the top of our lungs about the dreaded Flight 93 memorial in Pennsylvania where the plane went down on 9/11 and how offensive the crescent shape is to us. How many flags exist now which has some form of the Islamic crescent on it? Too many! I personally find their flags insensitive!

Will they hide their flags? Will they cover them up? Will they change them due to my sensitivities? The answer is obviously no on all accounts.

In this war of Islam versus the rest of the world, I simply have to sit back and wonder: “what next …?”

"it was now time for England to find a new flag and a patron saint who is "not associated with our bloody past and one we can all identify with."

I would object strongly were we to lose St George as our saint, and more importantly the cross as our national emblem.
But there are English saints who would merit a more prominent position in our national consciousness than they currently enjoy. The information we have about St George is scanty and he is not believed to have ever set foot on British soil. We also share him with several other nations, including Georgia. And if the good inspectors of HM Prisons find our version of his flag offensive in its cruciformism, then a look at the new state flag of Georgia would give them apoplexy. The thing most people know about St George is that he slew a dragon which is frequently symbolic of evil.
There is St Dunstan, the 10th century Archbishop of Canterbury. He was an accomplished blacksmith and is said to have pinched the devils nose with red hot tongs. Who do we know who is evil enough to merit such a pincing?

St Boniface took the gospel into pagan Germany, and working with Charles Martel (very appropriate) reformed the church in France. He is said to be the Englishman who has had the greatest effect on European history.

Aidan and Cuthbert worked in the North east, as did my favourite St Hilda a formidable lady who ruled a mixed double house of monks and nuns, encouraged the first English language poetry, presided over the synod of Whitby and turned snakes into fossils. Or so the guidebooks explain the ammonite fossils all along the cliffs.

The French have St Louis IX the crusader king although they seem not to make much of him.

Perhaps we should just adopt a patron. I nominate King Arthur who defended us from pagan invaders once before and who is merely sleeping until his country needs him again.

Now, look carefully at who it is they're worried about offending. "Muslim or Arab prisoners." These people are in jail for violating laws, and the British are worried about hurting their feelings.

This Doyle guy is a traitor to the Crown! How can a person such as he wish for the destruction of the British flag? This is a disgrace! Doesn't this wimp realize that Muslims need no encouragement?

I would object in the strongest terms to such a move. I object, also, to the removal of pigs in our day-to-day lives. In fact, I object to the removal of anything in order to appease Muslims! Appeasement is a nauseating strategy. It has never worked in history; and it will not work now, either.

Where has the British resolve gone? Have the British become spineless and spunkless!

At this time, we need strong leadership, perhaps as never before!

I can understand the Muslims wanting us all to banish red crosses from sight. Whenever they see or hear reminders of their bloody history they feel inclined to relive it.

As an Australian the Cross of St. George (along with the Crosses of St. Andrew and St. Patrick) are part of my flag and I intend to keep them that way.

As I am sure our "texan" friend would agree, identifying with figures or elements of our past and drawing something useful and meaningful from that does not mean the wholesale acceptance of all the unpleasant aspects associated with that time (unless you're a Muslim, in which case many of those unpleasant aspects concern the behaviour of a prophet who must be imitated).

People who can critically evaluate and, ultimately, grow out of their history should be allowed to retain and appreciate it. Those who refuse to evaluate their past with anything but blind reverence (whether it's a Neo-Nazi romanticizing Hitler, the Chinese Communist Party deifying Mao or whatever) should be the ones required to take down their grim reminders.

. . . Remember St. George . . .

Just what would the Government do if the flag they discarded was adopted by the people?

It would become a true flag of resistance, of the "underground". Cool.

And I guess those that agree with removing the old flag will want to get a new one?

Well, the Dhimmi's & the treasonous would certainly be easier to spot.

All over the place, the way to show your opposition to the Government & the final surrender to PCism would be to fly the flag of our ancestors. Double cool.

I'm off to stock up.

Granny Weatherwax, with no disrespect to King Arthur, the last true leader of the free world was Sir Winston Churchill. That's who we all really need these days. I suppose we Yanks can lay partial claim to him, too.

Such a scenario is unlikely to go the way some of you see it...ban the flag and watch the brits doing nothing at all about it!
Just ban the flag and replace the cross with a crescent,to make the muslims happy,ban pork products,ban alcohol,nudity,christianity,ban everything that offends muslims,and then ban the national anthem,etc.
Force the british women to wear burqas,force the men to grow beards and learn arabic,convert them to islam by force...just push te whole thing to the limit so you can see what the breaking point is.....

adela and the muslims both understimate the Brits. By the way, if the guards would augment their St. George's Cross tie-pins with arm patches and large banners, perhaps it would lessen that chances that the symbolism would be "mis-construed".

I have an interesting counter-point: I wish to see the crescent banned on all islamic national flags, everywhere. Oh, and on personal items.

It's just that a lot of Westerners view jihad as a bloody episode in their history. They see those campaigns as islam launching a brutal holy war against Christianity.

I confidently await news of the certainly profound political response of the islamic world.

Or maybe they should be paying jizya?

Prophet Geoff
BBUH

"As for the next "jesture" of dhimmitude likely coming down the pipeline? Calls to silence church bells. They're distracting, you see, because constructing home-made bombs requires total concentration!"

That’s been tried already. Shoreditch Church (St Leonards) has a famous peal of bells. Everybody knows Oranges and Lemons
Say the bells of St Clements...

When I grow rich
Say the bells of Shoreditch.

I can't find an on line reference to this as it happened when my father (who worked nearby) was still alive and well which was long before the internet was invented. But “newcomers” to the area had complained about the disturbance of the bells on a Sunday morning and so they were muffled so that ringing practice did not cause offence. I believe that the Guild do ring again now, for occasions like the Spitalfield festival. I can hear ringing practice at my local church as I write.

I have several St George t-shirts and others from church events with different crosses on (which terrified a Mormon missionary once, but that’s another story) and I wear them in public.

I have a theory about Islam and the cross. The cross as a sacred symbol predates Christianity. We have had discussion here before about the sun wheel symbol and the hijacking of the swastika by the Nazis, albeit in a mutilated version. The earliest Christian symbol was the fish. The cross was not widely used until later. I was once shown an ancient 3rd century font in Rome which was thought to be the earliest representation of the cross. I have often wondered whether the adoption of the cross as a symbol was as much to do with it’s efficacy against the forces of evil as the means of Christ’s passion. And if so it would explain why Islam feels such revulsion towards it.

One sad thing here in the UK is that almost no homes fly the Union Jack - unlike the case in the US where it is much more usual. Of course, many, like me, don't even have a garden but we could always have a flagpole on the outside wall.

Perhaps those reading this should start displaying the flag. It's likely we would get told to take it down - I'm close to the Finsbury Park mosque - and I'm sure the Council would find it offensive. But that would only help the cause

Infidel33
Unfortunatly I remember the funeral of Sir Winston Churchill well (my grandmother thought the souvenir book was an ideal treat for her least favourite grandchild). So he is not not merely sleeping under Glastonbury Tor until we need him. Otherwise I would agree with you, especially as he was well aware of the danger of this current menace.

Maybe they can replace the St. George/Dragon thing with something more reflective of Modern Britain, say a man in a bowler hat (symbolizing England) bending over and getting screwed by an Arab. Both can be smiling, showing that all's well. In the background they should have teeny weeny Jews leaving on boats.

I hope this isn't taken in bad, uh, taste.

"Chris Doyle, director of the Council for the Advancement of Arab-British Understanding.."
-- from the article above

Who pays Chris Doyle? How much?

Posted by: Hugh at October 4, 2005 02:05 PM

Hugh is absolutely right. Find out who is behind this and then watch the fur start flying. CAABU may be sorry they ever raised this one.

The 1967 DOB of this organization smells too, of a lobby group that came into being in the wake of the rout of Arab armies by Israel, or perhaps shortly in advance. Anyone who has read Bat Ye'or's Eurabia have any insights on this one?

I also find it very interesting that the story credits the impetus for the ban to, presumably, prisoners taking offense at something worn by jail guards:

"British prison officers who wore a St. George's Cross tie-pin have been ticked off by the jails watchdog over concerns about the symbol's racist connotations. "

Who brought this up with Anne Owers in the first place? CAABU?

We have to face up to this..

The main stream media and the democrats /Leftisits dont care as long as it isnt THEIR rights that are being stepped on..

If its someone else.
Say jews, christians, people who dont care to be an islamic slave. well too bad..

This level of contempt for others rights is beginning to sound like the nazis pre wwII...

I dont try to tell someone else how to live in their own country but i will NOT stand for Islamic immigrants demaning that WE cave in and submitt to their FALSE and Blood thirst so called god...

I will NOT Nor will America...

but i know that they will try and soon...

Granny Weatherwax,

Yes, point well but sadly taken. If ever a mortal could be transformed, I wish it could be him.

Would ANY MUSLIM ANYWHERE on the ENTIRE PLANET be willing to discard any Islamic symbol on ANY of THEIR FLAGS, or ANY MUSLIM ENSIGN ANYWHERE to appease a non Muslim because of the incredibly BLOODY ISLAMIC PAST (not to mention their lurid and bloody present...) -- Would it ever happen??? EVER? ANYWHERE ?? ANYTIME???

NO! Absolutely NOT... NEVER. NOPE...

We in the West are too decent (and perhaps deluded/uninformed about Islam) to even presume to be so outrageously demanding and chauvenistic about our sensibilities -- But Muslims do this at the drop of a hat, on a regular basis, and without the slightest hint of shame, irony, or self-consciousness...

Sick -- almost sounds like a parady given the jaw-dropping irony of Muslims complaining about something that happened 1000 years ago while we largely remain silent about what kinds of mayhem they're causing GLOBALLY TODAY --

SICK SICK SICK....

parody...

Are they freaking INSANE?

Have all the men in England been put on estrogen as part of a super secret socialist plot?

Granny - I was once shown an ancient 3rd century font in Rome which was thought to be the earliest representation of the cross.

Where in Rome did you see this?

Imagine what Sir Winston would have had to say to this Chris Doyle quisling! God help us all, these are the darkest days for the West since 1939.

What a shame!, we don´t want more dhirmitude! Britain is a aconfesional state, and must be proud of his history.

HEY EVERYBODY!!!!!

Granny, Waterdragon, Mark, Texan, et al

There, I got your attention. Sorry for the delay but I had a hard time finding this photo.

This is the perfect antidote for slopeydopes like Mr. Doyle and fellow dhimmis and assorted Muslims.

http://www.fmft.net/archives/cat_just_for_fun.html#000049

Scroll down to almost the bottom - November 19 and 21, 2003.

If you want to send a few kind words to Mr. Doyle:
doylec@caabu.org

The website URL of this "organisation" is http://www.caabu.org/

Franze,

Well, Britain is not a confessional state. But, of course, you are right saying that it should be proud of its history. Britain is, in my modest opinion, the greatest contributor to freedom of man.

cheers,

thomas h.

The crescent moon offends me, for it negates the sacrifice Jesus made for my salvation! Mosques offend me, for they remind me of the barbarian presence! The Koran offends me, for it goes against the true word of God! The word 'Allah' as a substitute for God offends me, for they are not the same! Zam Zam water offends me, for it comes from an unholy land! People eating off the floor offend me, for they are so primitive! The sound of the muezzin calling 'the faithful' to prayer offends me, for they are actually calling the true infidel to the mosque, an unholy venue! People who bonk their heads on the ground five times a day offend me, for they are praying to a false god! People who don't appreciate art offend me, for it shows how primitive they are! People who don't appreciate wine offend me, for they don't appreciate the fine things of life! People who insist on invoking the name of God (Allah) in vain all the time offend me, for they call the name of my God in vain! People who wear long beards offend me, for they look so ugly! Women who wear burkahs and veils and abbayahs offend me, for they are the negation of all that is stylish, chic, and fashionable!

Will somebody PLEASE BAN them ALL!

Hi DP111
I can't remember for certain; I was only 14, it was 1967 and there was a lot crammed into a short visit. But I think it may have been Santa Maria Maggiore. I distinctly remember the guide saying that the fish was prefered by the early church, and this was born out by what I remember of the catacombes. There were three crosses; the biggest with Christ on, the medium size with the converted thief, and the smallest with the cynical thief. Then the guide said that this was the earliest, or one of the earliest reprsentations of the cross and that it was 200 or 300 AD. How accurate she was I don't know, and how accurate my memory I definitly don't know. But it made an impression, as you will notice.
Do you know Rome well? I have never been back yet, to my sorrow, and despite scrounging coins for the fountain.

johnb:

I'm not much of a soccer fan and I'm not sure why you wanted my attention (but I'm flattered all the same).

Nonetheless, I do recall the images that were being circulated when I think it was Brazil that whomped Turkey in a major competition a few years back, comparing the moral-boosting powers of some Brazillian babes to the hijabbed Turkish fans.

waterdragon:

I believe the linked photo was taken during the recent rugby world cup. I thought any photo (referring to the link) that featured lovely English ladies, the cross of St. George and a gratuitous insult to the French is worthy of this topic. ;-)

Cheers.

Waterdragon: The pictures are from last year's Rugby World Cup. With the Football (soccer) World Cup just round the corner (hopefully England will qualify) one can rest assured that a few more Crosses of St. George will be flying all over England come the summer of 2006! May these flags offend as many muslims as possible. I doubt that Mr. Doyle will try to alienate football supporters.

Mr Doyle is an insignificant lickspittle not fit to clean the boots of the man who saved us from Fascism - Winston Churchill. The likes of Doyle and the weak kneed yellow Liberals he represents would have capitulated immediately to Hitler as they are now capitulating to the imminent new fascist threat that faces the UK. Try and take the George Cross away at your peril, Mr Doyle.

Just to add another comment, when these Muslims who find our flag so offensive came to the UK, they knew they were entering Christian soil. If they were that principled, they wouldn't have come in the first place, the same as I wouldn't set one foot in their countries. But, of course, we know their "principles" are easily put aside when there's a chance of a welfare cheque in the offing and there are useful idiots like Doyle to try and eliminate all British customs to suit them.

Having read most of the posts above, I have to say that one thing really truly riles me. If I were afraid to show my flag near some mosque, I would be a chicken and a pussy of the first degree. Something is dearly and deadly wrong over there in the UK. My ancestors were Patriots who beat your butts in 1776. I fly a Confederate first national on my deck for my Rebel kin, have Old Glory and my state flag on my car bumper, and there is no one who can intimidate me to stop this! I thought things were bad in the US with these islamists, but you Brits are truly on the skids. Fly those BEAUTIFUL Jacks, for crying out loud, where are your guts!!?? A good number of people here fly your flag and feel good about it! We are in a war for our survival - do not let these perverts take your and my country. Yours truly, a 60 y.o. Scots-Irish cousin in South Carolina.

Hulegu Khan: Since we're both apparently people whose extended families were shaped by the Mongol conquests, why don't we ship DOyle to North Korea? They're friendly with Islamicist radicals, and don't have a cross on their flag.

Seymour Paine: Your suggestion that the new UK flag should show a stereotypical Englishman being b-f-'d by a stereotyped Arab also shows a commendable sensitivity to the latest fad in sexual liberation.

British friends: I hope you realize that during the period before we rebellious colonial Yanks stuck 13 stars on a blue field in the corner of the thirteen stripes, we used a Union Jack in the corner. It seems to me that if a successful rebellion couldn't get rid of the Union Jack, Old Albion is giving up too easily at home.

Would Mr Doyle also like Australia, New Zealand and Tivalu to remove the cross of St George from the Union Jacks in the top, left-hand corners of their national flags? I do feel shame about the Crusades; its a shame they failed to drive the jihadists out of Jerusalem, back to the Arabian desert from where they came.

The muslim symbols must go I fear them must I alway be afraid like the few Armenians left after the Muslims killed 3/4 of a million. There symbols bring fear and as they come more closer I fear that they may do to Europe what they did to the Armenians. They have never said sorry never have they been brought to trial and if you critizw them they go so far as kill you even in Europe,ex Van Gogh for making his women"s Liberation movie. Do you know that Muslims won"t shake hands with a women if she were a President or so.Tell me why do I have to fear all the time can"t they give up there symbols orepresenting Genocide to us? Is this a hard thing. THe Muslim Crescent is the symbol of genocide it is a symbol of fear,only a few rmenians remain.Please Europe do not forget the Genocide of 1915.the Muslims in Turkey go so far as refuse even to show the movie Ararrat about the masacre. Europe read what they have done to their own. Armenians were and are Turks, if they do that to their own what do you think they will do to you?

Actually, now that I think of it, I'm pretty sure Sir Winston would have relinquished his knighthood around the same time that same was granted to the likes of an iqbal sacrane. Henceforth, he is again Winston, without the Sir.

And do not worry about the British, unless you are a muslim interloper, they will defeat the evil in their midst.

There is a reason the flags of the nations of Christendom bear the Cross. The heritage and culture of free nations and of all western civilization springs from the precious blood of God made Man, crucified on that Cross. Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. You British fly that Union Jack, and fly it proud. Put a jihadwatch.org bumper sticker on your car while you're at it.

Men, we must rise up and defend our threatened civilization. Not to impose any one faith upon the world, but to defend against those who would. This is our cause, and it is just.

What IS the matter with the British???!

This is YOUR Country, Brits! Why are you dismantling your country to appease these muslim aliens? These muslims DON'T BELONG in your land - they are ALIEN to Britain mentally, culturally, religiously. They will never change, never become British. Their ideology prohibits that. They will ALWAYS be insidious, deceiving, barbaric, seditious muslims. What they want, as entombed in their ideology ISLAM, is to tear you down piece by piece and built their Islamic sharia-governed hellhole on your land.

These people should not be tolerated. They should be driven out.

Britain should remain British, anyone who doesn't like it should go back to wherever they came from.

It is truly a sad, sad day when the "sensitivites" of muslim convicts are more important than the heritage of the greatest nation in the history of the world.

It is very difficult to acknowledge this, even harder to say it, but Great Britain is great no more.

Not that my dhimmhi Australia is any better but....

Why the hell did my English Grandfather die a horrible death fighting the Nazi's??? A Grandfather whose death led to my father being adopted out, and never really discovering his true blood family until it was to all to late (at least his adopted folks moved to Australia, no offense you English/Irish/Welsh/Scottish - but mate, THANK GOD I live in Australia! At least it seems you have finally learnt how to play cricket!) .

We still suffer (albeit much less than my grandfolks) from the events of 1936-1945.

Yet today we throw that sacrifice away. Those brave men and women sacrifice's are today, in Britain at least, for nothing.

These are the same Muslims, whose beliefs aligned them with Hitler, not England. This whole episode really shows just how far down the road our liberal, revisionist, left leaning educational system has taken us. If only we also followed Patton’s & Churchill’s desire and went to war against the insidious left there an then – as Patton said, “while we still have the army”.

Granted the (now replaced) conservative educational systems were not tolerant, and at times were even racist. But at least they did preserve our culture, our society, and above all, a future for our kids. Now I fear my kid will, even in Australia, become “fresh meat” for the Muslims.

My heart breaks every time we remember WW2. For we have turned our backs, as a society, against that entire generation, especially those who died willingly fighting Hitler and his Muslim friends. We have re-written and ignored our own history, to our own peril.

Simpering ninnies. They should just give up all vestiges of patriotic British identity -- No wait, they should first ask permission from their new masters if now is a good time. Maybe they can turn their flags into doormats and give them to mosques so the Muslims can wipe their feet on them...

Kepha: Thanks for the appreciation of my sensitivity to dictates of modernism. I might work on my flag for a while in Photoshop or Illustrator and send it off to England as an entry.

I become more convinced daily that our real enemy isn't Islam but Left dhimmi fascists. Really, what threat are a billion or so cavemen? As an Israeli said once of the Egyptian army: "If they'd stood on the border and thrown their boots at us they could have buried the nation, but they took their boots off to run away faster." No, it's not cowardly Muslims, and they are mostly cowards face to face, as one will find face to face, who are the real threat, it's office workers and media clerks and the banal little school teachers who run our nations like kindergaartens.

If the non-Muslim nations of the world continue to accept this infantalization of their populations, and not only accept but perpetuate it rather than enlisting neighbours to resist it in the flesh, then all that is lost is lost to people who didn't deerve to have it. It's a bully world.

There must be Englishmen who are adults. If not there will be yobs who will take to the streets, the rise of the BNP.

But what does history show us?

Chamberlain drew around himself an inner circle of subservient mediocrities, most of them knights remote from the practice of chivalry. Sir John Simon, a serpentine lawyer described as a snake in snake's clothing. Sir Samuel Hoare...: he was said to have 'passed from experience to experience, like Boccaccio's virgin, without discernible effect upon his condition.' Sir Thomas Inskip, Minister for Coordination of Defence, had little ability, less power and no perceptiveness: 'He could look with frank and fearless gaze at any prospect, however appalling--and fail to see it....' And Sir Kingsley Wood, who on the outbreak of war opposed the bombing of munition works in Germany because they were private property....

Piers Brendon, The Dark Valley. Vintage: New York, 2002. p. 611.

It gets worse. By page 692 one would rightly be sick of the English governors and wish to see them all frying in Hell. But then comes the war the ministers were so very afraid of.

So what are you going to do? You really can't think about it on the tube because you should be spending your time looking around for bombers entering your train.

The English government is replaying history this time as farce. The Left dhimmi fascists have taken over and turned the nation into a sensitive new age romper room. Muslims are only incidently the enemy. The real threat is the government and the people who make it happen this way. We're looking at the rise of the BNP, the lunatic fascist cretins who will love to wreck and ruin for its own sake. And the dhimmis will stamp their feet and scold while the maniacs destroy the nation.

Muslims are some small threat; the real menace is the English themselves and the dhimmi fascists everywhere. School's out for adults. Take charge.

But everyone is waiting for permission. Waiting for Churchill. Waiting for Godot.

Another example of a immigrant minority dictating to the majority. I will reiterate: immigrants must assimilate to the majority not the other way round. If you can't, please pack up and return to your home country. If you prefer another culture to the one in which you now find yourself, move on.

How can I get a St George Cross pin? I'd love to add it to the Jerusalem style crusader's cross I wear on my beret!

I just sent this to Mr. Doyle, will it help, probably not, but it makes me so mad. Wake up people!
Dear Mr. Doyle,
Concerning your remarks in a CNN report that ..."Muslims and Arabs view the Crusades as a bloody episode in our history...". Do you not know that the Crusades were an attempt to regain lands, the Holy Lands of Christians that were taken by Muslims by the sword 400 hundred years earlier? Shouldn't Muslims be ashamed for their ravages? Remove all symbols of their religion in our land, not OUR symbols. Until they honor our symbols and religion in their lands, and face up to the historical record of their bloody conquests, and the current daily murder of peoples everywhere by their religion, they have no right to be offended. Arab-British Understanding must go both ways, not just to the Muslims. I am an American, but we came here from Britain. Our history is connected. Do some research.
We're talking about Muslim convicts here. It's not like they are law-abiding.
I will never be ashamed of the Crusades, only that we didn't come out the winners. Will Britain?

Western Culture and the western world itself are coming to an end. This article was my epiphany. I know now that there is no way we can win. The few of us that are here are not enough to stop the tide. If this can even be contemplated than its over. I always thought that some how the people would rise up eventually and scream that they had had enough.
Little did we know in the 80s that political correctness was the first phase of our cultural suicide. This along with multiculturalism (which essentially means anything but Western culturalism), Islam, and extreme liberalism are the main architects of the death of Western Civilization.

Some interesting comments here. Again some people going over the top.

I think its all rather silly. I don't find the Cross offensive, I don't find the Star of David offensive.

I have never found the English flag offensive. I have an England football kit and I'm sure this has this on it. I support England when it comes to Football and Cricket, I really can't see why all this fuss is being made. No one (family, friends, Imam) complains about this. We are British Muslims, I want whatever is best for the whole of Britain, I want what most people want. I am proud to be part of Britain, I owe this country a lot. Everything.

To the people here, grow some backbone. Wear your England shirts, wave the English flag. Why do you feel ashamed? I can wear my England kit to Mosque, I can wave the Union Jack or the English flag outside Mosques, so what?

What are you so scared of? This is your country.

SnowDawg, I have come to the same conclusion.

I realised that we had lost after reading Eurabia the Euro-Arab Axis, the Turkey agreement just proved it and this thread is more of the same.

So I have decided to ignore any pension, I am in spending and enjoyment mode, all aimed to run out in 20 years, which is when I estimate the Islamics will start their war in France.

I am of course drumming it into my kids to leave Europe and go to the USA, I think the USA will do what is necessary and all that will be left of Europe is a smoking ruin run by barbarians.

In a debate with a couple of muslims, they recommended that I read a site which describes the essential peaceful nature of islam and a modern interpretation of the koran. Now in the normal course of events, I would ignore such advice, as it is just a method to not answer questions posed to muslims, as well as a technique to divert attention.

Anyway, I did link to the site and found that it was probably a Sufi site, written by a "professor" of islamic studies in the US. Surprise was that on the home page itself, was this

The Muslims are those from whose tongues and hands other Muslims are safe and sound.

http://en.fgulen.com/

Says it all.

ia786: "I think its all rather silly. I don't find the Cross offensive, I don't find the Star of David offensive."

King: Of course this is silly! That's what makes coming to this website so fun. The demagogue-style of this website stirs up the same responses over, and over, and over again. The irony here is that it took a Muslim like you, IA, to be the only breath of fresh air in here. Cheers.

Daffersd: "I have decided to ignore any pension, I am in spending and enjoyment mode, all aimed to run out in 20 years, which is when I estimate the Islamics will start their war in France."

King: Probably the second or third time I've seen you write this weak, weak stuff. Talk about "submission." Typical.

Daffersd: "I am of course drumming it into my kids to leave Europe and go to the USA, I think the USA will do what is necessary and all that will be left of Europe is a smoking ruin run by barbarians."

King: The USA certainly will do what is necessary if I have any say. People like me will bridge the serious gaps that people like you leave and make peace with others so that we can all live in a safe, just society. No justice, no peace. I want the radical extremists gone as much as you.

ia786, Interested said this on a JihadWatch post:

"There is no moderate Islam, only wishy washy Islam-lite, diluted with more humane doctrines. The distinction that can legitimately be made is not between extreme Islam and moderate Islam, but between Islam, the pernicious, totalitarian and repressive doctrine, and Muslims the people, who may or may not implement this doctrine."

I happen to agree with this statement.

The fear is that our system of individual rights will be destroyed by Islam , the most important, the ability to question in safety.

From that point on we the people are more at risk from the elites who wish to control the population and Islam will be another tool used to keep the masses in line. And even more frightening is that the criminal element also have a tool to prey on the weak.

If you have not worked out that the ability to question in saftey is the most fundemental freedom then you do not understand the West, and that Islam allows no questioning of its doctrine, hence the incompatability.

Of course I know that there are decent Muslims, but with Islam the killers, the criminal and the plain greedy and corrupt have a much greater opportunity to take advantage of us.

This is my thought process that makes me feel that Islam is a threat to the West, if we lose the protection to question to challenge, then our system will collapse.

The EU does not allow us the people to challenge the elite, this is why the EU is doomed.

KingTolerance, I stopped responding to you before, however I will this time.

Third time, yes correct, shows how depressed I am over the whole thing. But my post afterwards explains what I mean, as Islam allows no questions, then those that rule in the name of Islam can do so with impunity.

Then someone can say that the cross or star of David is offensive and any that disagree are an apostle and off we go.

When I see things like Islamophobia used to stifle free thought on what is a political and legal system then I think, hey freedom is gone huh! Then the whole system just goes. At least in the USA you have the first amendment, I wish we had it here...

Make peace, is that make peace at any price, or justice as they see it, where injustice can be created from almost anything.

Israel is a good example its only a small parcel of land, why is it so difficult to leave Israel in peace, but its that will to dominate others that is built into the religion.

I quite understand that you want to see that back of the extremists, I do to, the difference between me and you is that I see Islam as extreme and that some Muslims are moderate in spite of, while you think it is down to a few extremists who mis-understand Islam. I really hope you are right, but everything I have read (including history) and seen tells me otherwise.

Yes I have given up, and no you don't have any say, neither do I.

Kink crows:

`People like me will bridge the serious gaps that people like you leave” crows Kink

People like Kink Quisling will be tossed from bridges with a millstone around their necks into the gaps people like us expose.

Let’s win the war! – if only for the fun of seeing that scum drowning.

Sporting national fashion items asides, I feel the same about Muslims who wear the England shirt as I do about Westerners dressed in 7th century Arabic garb, or for that matter young white males dressed up like African American LA gangsters.

Niether party really "gets it" - & how could they?

With all the Western liberals screaming for the flag to be burnt in the name of tolerance & cultural understanding, I am surprised that more British Muslims have not come forward & said quite clearly:

Not In Our Name.

Maybe they are organising a march, the same sort of massive public march they organised in Londonistan against Al Qaeda violence & mayhem committed in their name - oh, sorry, that was a march against their Government's violence, not Islams....

"I want whatever is best for the whole of Britain"

- Ia, above

And this, really is the crux of the matter: how to separate the 'moderates' (if moderates there be, in the raging, apoplectic, humiliated sea) from the madmen. Now Ia, on other occasions, has displayed a far baser set of colours - not red and white for the Cross of St. George, but green and red, for the colour of islam and what islam likes to see spilt in its name. How to decide what is and is not a "moderate"?

And, moreover, how long will such moderation last? Until Mohammed is insulted? A Quran flushed (or not, as the case actually is)? Until a majority population of muslims is obtained? Until some new preacher comes along, full of hatred for the kufr? Who can say? Along the way, too, one meets the usual round of pretenders to the middle, or to logic: KT being one such. Instead of trying to actually argue points, they engage in ad hominem attacks (a phrase KT had never come across in all his weeks of internet, er, "projects", until I mentionned it out to him) (BTW, that was ad hominem, but damned funny) and mindless obfuscation and word-games. When that fails (as it invariably does), then the fallback position is the predictable, weak cry of racism and intolerance, usually by those who are themselves intolerant and racist. Irony is lost on such people.

But what can be said? Allah is the only thing Ia cares about, and, well, if he has to lie, then I suppose he thinks this 'Allah' would forgive him that, if it helped islam. Is there any debate possible with samesuch? No.

To wit:

"People like me will bridge the serious gaps that people like you leave and make peace with others so that we can all live in a safe, just society. No justice, no peace."

Recyling of the dear old slogan. No (islamic) justice, no (islamic) peace, is what it really comes down to. And no worrying about other societies, and no learning from their example, either! It's not nice to point out what happens to non-muslims in muslim countries, oh no. Just keep talking about peace and what you'll destroy of your own civilization to get it (or, in KT's case, someone else's civilization), and I'm sure the radicals (and the 30% of muslims that overtly support them, and the 40% of muslims that tacitly support them, and the remaining 20% that just hate Israel anyway because Mo-mo-say-so) will leave you in a peace governed by islamic justice. Don't worry about radicals! Heck, no. Just pay your tax like good dhimmis.

Which, of course, as Shirki would have been able to point out if he could have located a logical point with a map and a moral compass, is not "peace", but "occupation".

Or, if you like, "submission".

And allah knows not.

The Almighty Prophet
Geoff
BBUH

"There is no moderate Islam, only wishy washy Islam-lite, diluted with more humane doctrines. The distinction that can legitimately be made is not between extreme Islam and moderate Islam, but between Islam, the pernicious, totalitarian and repressive doctrine, and Muslims the people, who may or may not implement this doctrine."

I happen to agree with this statement.

===================================================

Okay, fair enough. You can oppose something you believe is wrong, so be it.

However what you fail to realise is that Islam can be practices peacefully. Do you agree?

I follow Islam peacefully, more than a Billion Muslims do. I personally don't have a beard, I wear western clothes, English is my first language. I do everything you do, I watch the same TV shows as you, I watch football and cricket. Now I fast during Ramadhan, I pray. So what? I have never, and will never impose Islam on anyone.

You can oppose Islamic extremism and terrorism, I do too as do more than a Billion Muslims. Now you seem obsessed with targeting people like me, people that are so ordinary it’s really silly. Why can’t a just live an ordinary life.

Why are you trying to make my life hard, there is discrimination out their against Muslims, I have been the victim of quite a lot in my time, are you saying I have no right to oppose this?

==================================================

"The fear is that our system of individual rights will be destroyed by Islam , the most important, the ability to question in safety."

Questions, what questions. Ask away!!!

--------------------------------------------------

"From that point on we the people are more at risk from the elites who wish to control the population and Islam will be another tool used to keep the masses in line. And even more frightening is that the criminal element also have a tool to prey on the weak."

How can Islam be used by the elite to keep people in line. I really cannot understand the way you think. How can you come to these conclusions?

-------------------------------------------------

"If you have not worked out that the ability to question in saftey is the most fundemental freedom then you do not understand the West, and that Islam allows no questioning of its doctrine, hence the incompatability."

Okay. This is the bit you need to understand.

Not everything is textbook, you have a rigid interpretation of Islam. How many people fit into the typical Muslim brand of yours, not many. Now you are trying to brand all Muslims in the UK into that group, it won't work.

I am British and happen to be Muslim. Now people may try to use racism against people like me however what about White British Muslims. They choose Islam because they find peace and tranquillity through Islam’s spirituality and prayer. Now that is something personal, that’s no ones business. How many Muslims 'kill, loot and rape' tell me. Islam is something personal and how I pray to God is no ones business. You have questions fire away. Go ahead.

==================================================

"Of course I know that there are decent Muslims, but with Islam the killers, the criminal and the plain greedy and corrupt have a much greater opportunity to take advantage of us."

Again, I simply cannot understand the way you think.

==================================================

"This is my thought process that makes me feel that Islam is a threat to the West, if we lose the protection to question to challenge, then our system will collapse."

Again, I simply cannot understand the way you think.

Daffersd, I have read your post and have to say I am sorry about the way you are feeling.

"So I have decided to ignore any pension, I am in spending and enjoyment mode, all aimed to run out in 20 years, which is when I estimate the Islamics will start their war in France.

I am of course drumming it into my kids to leave Europe and go to the USA, I think the USA will do what is necessary and all that will be left of Europe is a smoking ruin run by barbarians."

I don't think there is any need for that mate. This is your country, why run away. You have your rights, you do what you want to do when you want to. You don't need to change your way of living, I would never want that on you or anyone. Come on mate, cheer up. Be happy. You won’t ever have to change for anyone, don’t forget that. This is your home you don’t need to leave. Great Britain is a great country filled with great people, no one can change that.

"Sporting national fashion items asides, I feel the same about Muslims who wear the England shirt as I do about Westerners dressed in 7th century Arabic garb, or for that matter young white males dressed up like African American LA gangsters.

Niether party really "gets it" - & how could they?"

===================================================

Why are you always so narrow-minded?

Nothings ever enough for you is it, I suppose we will never get it. *sigh* (sarcasm)One doesn’t have to be an atheist or Christian to be British.

Questions, what questions. Ask away!!!"

Of course. Unless you question the Prophet or his, er, "Religion". But even then, Ia would never kill you. Heck no!

Of course, lots of his coreligionists would. But can't you understand that a billion muslims practice islam peacefully, even when their legal systems are deliberately and maliciously designed to oppress non-muslims, women, and homosexuals? They're so peaceful! ESPECIALLY in islamic countries - you know, the ummah. Where islamic peace is. Unless you're one of the above. What a great example islam is to the world. LOL

"I have never, and will never impose Islam on anyone."

Contrast this with an earlier statement by Ia:

"I would never impose Islam on anyone, BUT..."

The BUT is, of course, the keyword there. You know, I was able to cut-and-paste his statement for both quotes and I only had to retype a few words to match his old statement! Wow.

Ia: "Great Britain is a great country filled with great people, no one can change that."

No, but it seems Mohammed wants to try. Don't be ridiculous, if you can help it.

"How many Muslims 'kill, loot and rape' tell me. Islam is something personal"

And forcible. Just ask the Sufis in India. Or the Shi'ites in Iraq. Or the Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia. Or the Sunnis in Turkey. Or any muslim in Egypt (or better yet, the Copts). Or...well, I think you see the picture. Mo-mo designed the religion in precisely that way. So, a lot of muslims have indeed looted, killed, and raped in accordance with Q 9:5-30 and all the rest about "taking things by the right hand". Clearly islam isn't as personal as it is societal. If it were personal, it wouldn't need forced conversion any more, yet it does.

==================================================
Daffersd: "Of course I know that there are decent Muslims, but with Islam the killers, the criminal and the plain greedy and corrupt have a much greater opportunity to take advantage of us."

Ia: "I simply cannot understand the way you think."

Daffersd: "if we lose the protection to question to challenge, then our system will collapse."

Ia: "I simply cannot understand the way you think."
==================================================

It's hard to know if this is more playing dumb, or if Ia really IS dumb. Let's assume that Ia is being honest here.

(Water, stop giggling.)

Of course Ia wouldn't lose any rights, since for him only Allah is important, and he's not likely to challenge his own religion. Similarly, he's not in any danger from those muslims who take advantage of sharia-based oppression of non-muslims in islamic countries, since he is also a muslim. (Unless the Wahhabis or Shi'ites took over, in which case he'd only be in a slightly better state than the kufr.) Islam is a fascist, absolutist religious and political entity. Ia is a fascist, absolutist personal entity (see his earlier comments on Mein Kampf, 9/11, the Freemasons, the forced imposition of religion, and so on), so for him, it really doesn't matter.

Solved.

So perhaps Ia's comment could be cut down to something more parsimonious. Something like:

"I simply cannot understand."

Exactly.

Prophet Geoff
BBUH

Johnb, Great Photo. If those gals are for hire, I'll help pay for a little parade around the mosque. (or the prison, LOL)

Good point, londongirl. The flag pre-dated the offendee. There is an ancient rule of law related to a nuisance, something noxious on a property which bothers another nearby landowner or tenant.

The prinicple is that the person "coming to the nuisance" cannot complain. The remedy was to avoid the nuisance while the complainer had the opportunity, not to seek removal of the nuisance after willingly subjecting himself to it.

This has eroded, however. I know of one beautiful old Catholic church which has had to silence it's bells at vespers (and maybe at other times), replacing them with some hideous and quieter electronic "chimes". How sad. And the controversy was caused by some newcomers to the area. I don't know the history of the case, or even if suit was filed. Hopefully, however, there is no precedent established by a legal decision being upheld on appeal.

Does English law have this principle? Anybody know?

As for the tie-pins, I would think ties in that environment are dangerous, as an inmate could grab it and choke the wearer. (Maybe the wearer is not exposed to the prisoners, but why would they notice to complain?) In any event, if the tie-wearers want to fiddle, they could wear little crescent tie-pins. That would REALLY tick off the muslim prisoners, wouldn't it?

Wow, Kemaste!! Brilliant. Does anyone know where I can buy a door mat with a crescent on it? I have this great urge.

Sonofwalker, you are so right. The teachers, especially, are leading the charge against Western Civilization.

They, along with all the other left-liberals try their best to do anything to destroy America, Great Britain, Western culture and history. None of that is any good, or, certainly not better than anything else. Everything, all cultures, all societies, all ideas, all people, are EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL.

Only, not said, but endorsed by every action, is the principle that SOME things, cultures, people, races, are BETTER, but only IF they were (or still are) VICTIMS.

IA

"Narrow minded don't come into it lad"..(fake John Cleese accent now off)

British? Who was talking about the British?

An England shirt, or flag for that matter does not & never has represented Great Britain.

Funny, I thought you'd know & understand that, being British yourself.

Anyone can be British. Look around. No qualifications or CV or loyalty to the nation required.

Just turn up at the door & carp on about your rights in any language you happen to command - you'll be British in no time.

But English?...ahhh, thats another matter entirely to me & a growing number of my countrymen & women.

Are you the same IA who posts at ummah.com (I think I asked you this before)

The other IA seems to caste a different shadow when he believes he is among friends...

Regards

Prophet Geoff:

Unfortunately, I missed whatever ia may have had to say about Mein Kampf so predicate the following opinion on that.

How much of what ia says can be attributed to youth vs stupidity? I look back at my own youth and blush at my naivity (about the Vietnam War in particular and just how murderous the Communists were). And now, well into my middle years, I find I still don't know what I don't know, so I tend to mark what ia says down to still having a great deal to learn.

Otherwise, I think his hanging around this site may have a more positive/enlightening/broadening affect on him than we might suspect, and maybe -- if he really is representative of the vast majority of young Muslim males born and living in the West -- that things aren't as bleak as they appear these days.

Maybe, Water, maybe. I've debated with him before on FFI (where I won) and frankly, I got a little tired with his constant appeals that he "just didn't know anything about the Protocols of Zion, oh poor little me!" and what they had to say about Jewish people (none of which is good) and world conspiracies. I explained to him straight-up what they were and he still refused to condemn them.

Then, later, he jumps in here with his lunatic (so to speak) conspiracy theory, which a sizeable proportion of the islamic population of Britain also believes. He just didn't say "Jew". Essentially Ia is here to sow hate, to name-call and pretend at "peaceability". It took him a while to learn the latter, though. Unfortunately for him, he's already slipped up too many times on subtle issues, and played the utter ignorant far too often, for him to be a real moderate, if any of those actually exist.

I'm not hopeful. If the rest of the muslim community is like him (and odds are most are worse, if he's as "moderate" as he pretends to be), then there is little to hope for them, other than speedy expulsion.

So sayeth
Prophet Geoff
BBUH

Heh - oops. Mein Kampf too.

Prophet Geoff
BBUH

ia786,

The question part can simply be answered by looking at the arrest of that women in Afghanistan, that is exactly what I am talking about.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/008443.php#comments

Surely you can understand that this is the issue fundementally with Islam and the West.

Yes Islam can be practised freely, but not the Islam that is written in the Qu'ran, you have to ignore many verses and ignore abrogation.

Geoff, I am not so sure, he is going through a growing up stage, I think I agree with Waterdragon52.

I just wish all Muslims were like he seems to be.

"Just turn up at the door & carp on about your rights in any language you happen to command - you'll be British in no time.

But English?...ahhh, thats another matter entirely to me & a growing number of my countrymen & women."

---------------------------------------------------

This is the bit I don't get. What makes someone British? You always pick on Muslims, even moderate ones. Let me ask you something. There’s a poster here, Vikrant. He's a British Hindu. We're more or less from the same part of the World. Ordinary guys going about our business. I have committed no crime, I haven't done anything to hurt this country and will do things to make this country stronger. He is probably the same.

Many people from Pakistan actually fought for the British and were therefore allowed here. Why do you just pick on ordinary Muslims? Even those that have committed no crime.

--------------------------------------------------

"Are you the same IA who posts at ummah.com (I think I asked you this before)"

No.

"Unfortunately, I missed whatever ia may have had to say about Mein Kampf so predicate the following opinion on that."

Geoff as usual. If I remember correctly you told asked me to state what was wrong with Mein Kampf. I told you I hadn't read it. You ran off to your own conclusions. Same with the Protocols of Zion. You say I blame the Jews for 9/11 when you know I don't. At that point Geoff, to be honest, I lost alot of respect for you. You don't know me. You may think that I have insulted many people here and I may have, I apologise for that.

“Maybe, Water, maybe. I've debated with him before on FFI (where I won) and frankly, I got a little tired with his constant appeals that he "just didn't know anything about the Protocols of Zion, oh poor little me!" and what they had to say about Jewish people (none of which is good) and world conspiracies. I explained to him straight-up what they were and he still refused to condemn them.”

That’s the thing Geoff. You always try to put words into other peoples mouths, I know what I am, I am free from hatred. I don’t waste my time with hatred. You asked me about the Protocols, I said I don’t know. You take this as me being anti-Semitic, believe what you want.

“I explained to him straight-up what they were and he still refused to condemn them”

……………

Shame on you.

“Then, later, he jumps in here with his lunatic (so to speak) conspiracy theory, which a sizeable proportion of the islamic population of Britain also believes. He just didn't say "Jew". Essentially Ia is here to sow hate, to name-call and pretend at "peaceability". It took him a while to learn the latter, though. Unfortunately for him, he's already slipped up too many times on subtle issues, and played the utter ignorant far too often, for him to be a real moderate, if any of those actually exist.”

…………….

Okay.

“Then, later, he jumps in here with his lunatic (so to speak) conspiracy theory, which a sizeable proportion of the islamic population of Britain also believes. He just didn't say "Jew".

What does that mean? What conspiracy theory? How do you know “a sizeable proportion of the islamic population of Britain” believe it?

You referring to Loose Change? “He just didn't say "Jew".”

You can’t get a much weaker response than that.

Hey Geoff, I have lost a lot of respect for you. I know how your mind works. I will probably ignore your posts from now on.

Have a nice life.

Later mate.

==================================================

"Otherwise, I think his hanging around this site may have a more positive/enlightening/broadening affect on him than we might suspect, and maybe -- if he really is representative of the vast majority of young Muslim males born and living in the West -- that things aren't as bleak as they appear these days."

I have learnt alot during my time here. I know that many of the people here are just ordinary folk fed up with Islamic extremism and Western Governments being soft. I know how you feel, when I read the stuff about the flag and many other articles I do feel angry. When some of the members here feel unhappy I too understand how they feel.

The comments by Daffersd did have an impact on me. I don't like people to feel like that, not in his own country. That’s just wrong.

some British muslims are offended by something Winston Churchill wrote about islam and would like to his writings banned from the public library..

Nothing new here.

Last week the Red Cross met to discuss changing its logo since the 'red cross' was offensive to muslims.

this constant capitulation disgusts me.

when will it all end ?

ia786 is right on one point, we should grow a spine and fly the flag. He is wrong to say that the issue is silly. It should be silly, because it should be considered laughable that the national flag of England could be banned as "racist". But it's not silly. It's serious, because every time the government does something stupid, like ban Piglet or the English flag, many people will blame "the Muslsims" for it. Nobody asked Muslims if they wanted the flag banned, but if it happens, it's going to reflect badly on them. It's not fair but that's people for you. That's why this issue is serious, and it should concern the vast majority of moderate Muslims. They should be out in force wearing their England shirts and waving the flag.

ia then makes his usual broader statements about how all is well in Islam, with over 1 billion peaceful believers. But what percentage of the world's Muslims really oppose the terrorist jihad? It varies by country, but with 50% of Pakistanis expressing a "positive opinion" of Bin Laden, it's not obvious that terrorist sympathies are confined to "a tiny minority of extremists".

ia further says "Islam is something personal and how I pray to God is no ones business. " I respect his view, however there are many Muslims who think Islam is much more than personal. There are many who think it contains a complete set of rules to govern life, the spiritual life of individuals and the political life of nations. This opinion is not as common in the UK as it is in many Muslims nations. But is it wrong? Can Islam live with a wall of separation between church and state? I've not seen a fatwa that would convince me it can.

In a recent BBC survey, 18% of Muslims said that they thought Islam was not "compatible with British democracy".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4137990.stm

Note that the BBC didn't find this point fit to mention in their article, but if you get the raw survey data (the PDF link) you can see it. The sample size was not big (a couple of hundred, I think), so let's not take this 18% figure as gospel, but I think it's safe to say that there's more than a handful of Muslims who think that democracy and Islam cannot live together. My question is, how can we convince these Muslims, on Islamic grounds, that there is no fundamental conflict between Islam and democracy? This is a question I've asked before here and elsewhere and I have not had an answer yet. I've seen a lot of assertions, equivocation, and evasion. A common tactic is to veer off into a discussion of how wonderful Sharia is in comparison to European laws of the 7th century. True in some respects, but we're not in the 7th century any more. What I'd like to see is a fatwa addressing all the theological claims that Sharia rule is mandated by Islam. Does anyone know of such a document?

It is not possible in almost any country to criticise islam without puttiing your life is in danger. Freedom of expression is already compromised and daffersd is absolutely right. Without the free xepression of thought, without the fear of being murdered, is the quintessential value of the Western world. Without it, all we have is a collection of gadgets.

The price we are paying for allowing muslims to come to the West is the loss of Freedom. This is far too high a price to pay.

"Why are you always so narrow-minded?" - IA

Of course IA and King aren't "narrow minded". No not at all. They are so "broad minded" that they opening admit its OK to have sex with girls as young as nine - just so long as they have had a "period". So these two pedophile Muslims try to pass themselves off as respectable.

"Nothings ever enough for you is it, I suppose we will never get it. *sigh* (sarcasm)One doesn’t have to be an atheist or Christian to be British."

Nope you ARE NOT British. British people abhor sex with children. IA and King you approve of such acts.

daffersd and sonofwalker:

I predicted long ago that freedom of expression will sufffer if we allow muslims into the country. And so it transpired with the Rushdie affair.

This Jihad is going to get worse with each passing day. And with that, our freedoms will become increasingly threatened or stifled. I do not think our societies, geared as they are to free and open thought, can continue with an ever-increasing 5th column assault on it. If this assault is not brought to a halt soon, then free society will start to perish. It may not be evident immediately, but perish it will in the fullness of time.

It is becoming increasingly irrelevant if 60% or even 70% of Muslims in the West are "innocent"; the rest of the population i.e. all of us, are being victimised as a consequence of PC. Most muslims support the Jihad, knowingly or unwittingly, and in one way or other, either by donations to muslim charities that sustain the Jihad, or by remittances to back home, which then find their way to support the Jihad. In other words, the welfare benefit system in the UK is subsidising the Jihad.

But the real tragedy that saddens me is that our civilisation is dying right at this moment, as freedoms we have fought for and taken for granted, are slowly being strangled in the name of security or fear of being murdered by any muslim who has taken offence at criticism of islam or mohammed. In the end, our whole way of life will be changed, Western nations de-stabilised and disoriented, caught between the trident of liberalism, self-defence and Jihad. Finally, we will strangle our civilisation. It is far too high a price to pay.

Why does anyone respond to the dog and pony show put on by KT/IA ?? Those/that execrable an*s is just here flaming the site, and trying to get people off balance... The more you engage with the preposterous and bigoted OT posts of KT/IA, the more you encourage the deception and treachery, and the more you allow this site to be sullied by the filth that is spewed... I acknowledge these posts provide an interesting insight into the decayed logic of the Muslim mind, but beyond that there is little purpose served... All heat and absolutely no light. Just wondering...

DP111 - I agree with you 100%. But one thing that sticks in my head is that in Australia as least, during WW1 and WW2, the people lost rights and freedoms, in order to fight the enemy of the time.

For instance the states in WW1 lost the right to raise income tax, and the Federal Gov't has been doing it ever since. He who controls the money, controls the people. In effect power was concentrated in the hands of the few in Canberra. This is not what our founding fathers wanted, comming from Europe, they wanted to adviod centralised power.

In WW2 we saw consription introduced, control over foodstuffs, fuel etc. Again this had to be central in order to control the people, to fight the enemy.

So how does a government (aka the rich and big business), get more power in a nuclear age? You can't go and invade another country as easily anymore thanks to the media, world opinion, and above all, the threat of nuclear war.

So how? Through Multi-culturalism. Create a CIVIL war, where nukes won't be used (after all what's the point of being rich if you are BBQ'ed?). So we will continue to lose rights thanks to Muslim immigration. Its what the people behind the governments want.

Why does anyone respond to the dog and pony show put on by KT/IA ?? Those/that execrable an*s is just here flaming the site, and trying to get people off balance... The more you engage with the preposterous and bigoted OT posts of KT/IA, the more you encourage the deception and treachery, and the more you allow this site to be sullied by the filth that is spewed

I don't like to tell people who they should talk to, but since you asked, here's my two cents.

Everyone who thinks that KT or IA are trolls should just ignore them. They should not reply to them, talk to them, or refer to them. Trolls live on attention. They want to pollute the site with off topic rants and personal attacks. They can't do it alone, because they would get banned. So they goad people into doing it with them. Insults, death threats, and other stupidity are nectar to a troll, and anyone who feeds a troll (and the various messages exhorting "don't feed the trolls" count!) is making themselves and the site look silly.

I've been accused of being a troll (and even a Muslim, I think) once or twice myself, and I enjoy a challenge so I like to debate with people who hold different ideas. I don't think I'm encouraging "deception and treachery", because both can be exposed with the facts. Only those who feel themselves on shaky intellectual ground need to cry "troll" (or "Islamaphobe", depending on which side of the fence you sit on) at everyone who disagrees. I don't know if ia786 and KT are genuine, or trolls, or robots that write automated responses to our posts, but I'm sure there are people out there who do hold views similar to theirs (I've met a few), and it's good to have these views explored and discussed.

jsla - I only respond - sort of, not to what they are saying (although I will occasionaly - especially where they spew out revisionist history), but I just reiterate what they believe, that is - sex with little girls.

The reason I do this is because other people read their (at times) seductive bile, and if their true colours were not shown, these "sheep" may just follow them.

You will note that neither debate me on the issue of child sex. They ignore me, hoping I will go away.

Let them argue, let us show what sick people they really are. They can state as many "facts" as they like. But when you show other readers what they truely believe in (like child sex), then hopefully other readers new to the site will see that these two are no better than Mohammed, that "great" pig of a prophet who also enjoyed sex with little children.

Why do I harp on about pedophilla? Despite all the moral relativism, regardless of whether you are athiest, Jew, Christian, Buddhist, we infidels all abhor child sex. Only the filthy Muslim men love it - when it comes to belief systems.

It shows who and what IA and KT really are.

3rdtimelucky -- About ia786, you are correct: the logic of being a Muslim means that at the very least, he has to support child sex as a behavior performed by that paragon and model for all human beings, Mohammed, even if personally he may not go in for it. I don't think, however, that KT (if he really is not Muslim but is only a Western Leftist) likes child sex.

I would say that KT, as a Western Leftist, strongly opposes child sex when Catholic priests perform it, but adopts a bland neutrality about child sex when it comes time to criticizing Muslims -- since Muslims and the Islam that makes them Muslims, of course, can't be criticized.

DP111, I agree with you, and ia786 is squarely in the camp of those innocent Muslims, from what he has said.

I was trying to understand why the EU allowed the EAD other than political weakness against the threat of an oil ambargo, and I really begin to wonder if the European political classes worked out that this was the only way to stop Europe from becoming like America.

ia786, think about what I said, understand how valuable that right to question is, and ask yourself, does that right really exist in Islam, I am not trying to break your faith in God, what I want you to do is follow God on your own terms, I get the impression you are part way there.

I think ia786 is genuine.

IA

I cannot say what makes someone "British", as I do not consider myself to be "British".

I am English.

Did you actually read my post, or just pick up what you could on a scroll wheel fly by?

I don't mean to pick on anyone - I read Vikrant's posts & I read yours.

The difference between yourself & Vikrant is obvious - Vikrant does not hold a belief & belong to a religion that is a threat to my nations heritage, culture, language & safety, where as even moderate sounding Muslims such as yourself have an absolute duty to the Quran. There is so much hate & ill feeling towards the unbeliever in certain parts of the Quran that it must be obvious to anyone who can read that the "clash of civilisations" our untalented Foreign Secretary carps on about is actually happening now. Having read many passages I know you are a danger to all who do not believe.

Not all 1930's era Germans were Nazi's - but how many of them stepped into the breach to stop Nazism once the killing started?

Why do I harp on about pedophilla? Despite all the moral relativism, regardless of whether you are athiest, Jew, Christian, Buddhist, we infidels all abhor child sex. Only the filthy Muslim men love it - when it comes to belief systems.

Is this true? I understand that it was accepted and common in the 7th century, but surely nobody is saying today that sex with 9 year olds is OK? KT? IA?

Lateral thinking would allow us the possibility that KT and IA perform a service. Their logics/patterns are necessary for us to be able to determine and to effectively respond to, and in doing so we sometimes have to research.

An analogy would be those musketeers practising swordsmanship. The duels fortify us and enable us to respond to the real war.

Viking5:

Child sex is still an established part of islam. When Khomeini came to power in Iran he lowered the marriageable age of girls from 18 to 9 to follow the "prophet's" example. He advised father's to make sure that their daughters had "their first blood" (first period, or reached puberty) in their husbands houses. No "true" muslim will say that it is wrong, since their demented prophet was "the perfect man", to be emulated in all things, and to criticize any of his actions is blasphemy. Same with slavery - also OK in islam, because muhammad did it.

Viking,

Is this true? I understand that it was accepted and common in the 7th century

You are wrong. Sex with children, along with child sacrifice was viewed with revulsion and considered a deeply immoral act in civilizations predating and contemporary with mohammed e.g. Judaism, Rome, Greece, Persia and, I think, India. Neither was it practised among the Gaelic, Germanic and Slavic tribes of Europe.

As far as I know it was not accepted in Arabia before Mohammed. That is why moohammed had to claim a dispensation from allah – to obtain consent from aisha’s parents.

No Viking! that man was a filthy pig even according to the standards and customs of the 7th century.

folks:

Do not place ia in the same category as KT. They may, occasionally, agree on things. (I haven't kept score, so I don't know.) He's no troll. He's willing to concede points when he's been wrong/ill-informed/under-informed and sometimes makes good ones himself.

KT is an entirely different kettle of gefilte fish. I know Geoff is convinced KT is a closet convert to Islam and maybe that's true, but those times when I have put myself through the distasteful exercise of reading what he writes instead of wincing and scrolling by, I don't see that. I see a prototype of the "holier than thou" syndrome whose pet project is denoucing the anti-jihaddists here as racists of varying degree and resorts to bad moral equivalences to do so.

You are wrong. Sex with children, along with child sacrifice was viewed with revulsion and considered a deeply immoral act in civilizations predating and contemporary with mohammed e.g. Judaism, Rome, Greece, Persia and, I think, India. Neither was it practised among the Gaelic, Germanic and Slavic tribes of Europe.

Not India, I think. Ghandi got married at thirteen. He later campaigned against the practice.

Roman girls could marry at thirteen, see

http://womenshistory.about.com/cs/ancientrome/a/roman_wm_10102b_3.htm

Thirteen is a way from nine, but I don't know if there was any formal limit in Rome.

In Mississippi, I believe it's still legal to get married at any age with parental consent.

Nine is young even by ancient standards, but were these customs based in law or just guides? Once a girl had her period, was she considered a woman in other ancient cultures, or just Islam?

Viking5:

When Jewish males reach the age of thirteen they are Bar Mitzvah, and deemed adults. Given what life expectancy once was, that's perhaps understandable. I'm not well enough versed to be able to tell you when Jewish females were deemed old enough for marriage, (and ia, please don't chime in here with that one about the Talmud saying 3 year olds unless you can tell me which Talmud and which translation. I could be wrong, but you may have been duped. I know the Saudi/Wahhabi-types like to shriek about forged versions of the Quoran being circulated by the Jews, but it's far more likely that the folks who like to promote the Protocols of the Elders of Zion would attempt to pass off a forged Talmud to support their claims than the other way around.)

Females in warmer climates tend to start menstrating much earlier. I recall some reports of girls as young as 5 in South American countries giving birth.

Viking:

I think what I am trying to get at here, is why are you so focused on this? Yes, Islam certainly seems to have institutionalize the early use of females for sex, and it continues to be a problem. Paedophelia is an extremely ugly problem all over the place as I am sure you are aware of westerners travelling to southeast Asia for sex tourism purposes, usually involving children, and internet kiddie porn is a global disgrace.

This isn't the only ugly thing about Mohammed's legacy or necessarily the most prevalent ugly thing either so why so much energy on this item?

waterdragon52:

Read Viking5's post again. He was merely trying to ascertain whether or not child sex is sanctioned by islam TODAY, rather than being an anachronistic aspect of the cult/culture. Of course, as you point out, as with many other savageries, their practice is in place FOR ALL TIME since they are mandated bt the qur'an and the sunnah.

Waterdragon, I have to agree with you. We'll take ia over KT any day.

Ia: "If I remember correctly you told asked me to state what was wrong with Mein Kampf. I told you I hadn't read it. You ran off to your own conclusions. Same with the Protocols of Zion."

PROPHET GEOFF: I explained to you clearly what they were. If you, er, "respected" me as much as you seem to think people here would believe, then you ought to accept my explanation. But, you didn't, and while you could have easily said: "Well, if that's what they say I reject them", but you didn't do that either. Later, of course, you came out with your little conspiracy theory about 9/11 and the evil Freemasons (read: Jews) taking over the world, and so I'd be more a little skeptical of any such declaration now, not that it's likely to occur.

Ia: "You say I blame the Jews for 9/11 when you know I don't. At that point Geoff, to be honest, I lost alot of respect for you. You don't know me."

Partially correct. I don't know you, but I know what you are. Please. Weren't you the same one who mentioned laughing Israeli tourists in the same paragraph as your 9/11 conspiracy theory? And the point of such an association would be - what? =) Too easy, dork. But I'm all broken up about your loss of respect for me. Really.

Ia: "You asked me about the Protocols, I said I don’t know. You take this as me being anti-Semitic, believe what you want."

I believe what I have evidence for. As for the Protocols, you do know, but you refuse to admit it. Freak. If you think the shame is on me, you really are deluded.

Ia: "What does that mean? What conspiracy theory? How do you know “a sizeable proportion of the islamic population of Britain” believe it?"

Well, let's see, just for the fun of it. You claimed that 9/11 was an "inside job", as I recall. That's a euphemism for a conspiracy, thankyou for playing. Now, either you're one of the few nutjobs that really believe this crap, or you're just another average Joe "moderate". Of course, if you really are a "moderate" then that means your views are "moderate" as well - i.e. mainstream. Get it? Are you SURE you're going to university? Is is al-Ahzar?

Ia: "Hey Geoff, I have lost a lot of respect for you. I know how your mind works. I will probably ignore your posts from now on."

Weak as weak can be. You're running again, and you're calling my comments weak. Okay. Guess I win this one too. Don't be surprised to see my posts, though, or to have them pounding on any BS you post. And one more thing: don't call me mate. I'm not your friend, you nazi creep.

"Waterdragon, I have to agree with you. We'll take ia over KT any day."

- Gary

Did you mean for firing into the Thames with a catapult? Because I certainly agree. As long as he was tied to KT. Beyond that, I don't care which one hits the water first.

Prophet Geoff
BBUH