Bush again referred to Qur'an 5:32, "which states that killing an innocent human being is like killing all of humanity, and saving the life of one person is like saving all of humanity," indicating that he still hasn’t considered the implications of the fact that jihadists contend that no Americans or Israelis are innocent, and thus the verse doesn’t apply to their actions. Nor did the President apparently read on to Qur’an 5:33, which stipulates that "the punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter" – a mandate for mayhem that jihadists have skillfully deployed the world over, and an indication that Bush’s reading of 5:32 may be a trifle superficial. Bush has not confronted the deep roots that the jihad ideology has within both Islamic tradition and the contemporary Islamic world. This could lead and has led to policy misjudgments.
From the Muslim American Society website, with thanks to Scaramouche:
WASHINGTON, Oct 18 (MASNET & News Agencies) - President George W. Bush told Muslim leaders and diplomats at an Iftar dinner that "all responsible Islamic leaders" must denounce terrorists who claim to act according to Islam."I believe the time has come for all responsible Islamic leaders to denounce an ideology that exploits Islam for political ends and defiles your noble faith," he said at the White House, reports Agence France-Presse (AFP).
The remarks came as he hosted diplomats from Islamic nations and leaders of the U.S. Muslim community to dinner to mark Iftaar, the first day of the holy Muslim holiday Ramadan.
"Many Muslim scholars have already publicly condemned terrorism, often citing chapter 5, verse 32 of the Quran, which states that killing an innocent human being is like killing all of humanity, and saving the life of one person is like saving all of humanity," Bush said.
"I appreciate those of you here who have joined these scholars in rejecting violent extremists,” he said....
"We must be very clear about the enemies we face: The killers who take the lives of innocent men, women and children, are followers of a violent ideology, very different from the religion of Islam," said Bush.
"The killers who take the lives of innocent men, women and children are followers of a violent ideology very different from the religion of Islam," he said. “These extremists distort the idea of jihad into the call for terrorist murder against anyone who does not share their radical vision, including Muslims from other traditions who they regard as heretics."
"Their strategy will fail."...
The group interrupted Bush's brief remarks once, when he said a Quran has been added to the White House library for the first time in history, the news agency reports.
Good. I hope he reads the whole thing, and consults the mainstream tafasir (commentaries) to discover how traditional Islam has understood passages such as 9:5 and 9:29, and 8:39, which reads: "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah." Tafasir-i-Husaini, to take just one example, explains: "Fight them till all strife be at an end," that is, until "no polytheists remain of the pagans or Jews or Christians." (vol. i, p. 239). That is, until the "polytheistic" features of Judaism and Christianity are eradicated, which means, until the Jews and Christians have become Muslims.
Bush has not confronted the deep roots that the jihad ideology has within both Islamic tradition and the contemporary Islamic world. This could lead and has led to policy misjudgments.
As in, our nation's death warrant?
GWB needs to read The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam!
Same problem, same dilemma, same post
So let us consider the hypothetical situation that ALL muslims at present living in the West, accepted the call to clean up their communities of extremism. They even went further and made the changes in their teachings of the koran and the jihad. Such an outcome would no doubt come as a relief to many on this site and elsewhere. But I counter, that all such changes were being done merely to protect the ummah while it grows at ever increasing pace in the West. Once a near majority is achieved, that future generation of muslims will simply revoke any changes and return to the traditions of the unchanging and unchangeable koran ie the "canonical texts" as Hugh puts it. They will even praise this generation of muslims for having done what was necessary to protect islam.
Islamic ideologues take the long view - in several decades or more. It is only right that we as well consider options keeping in mind islam's long-term goals.
"I believe the time has come for all responsible Islamic leaders to denounce an ideology that exploits Islam for political ends and defiles your noble faith," he said at the White House, reports Agence France-Presse (AFP).
"Responsible" is an interesting and ambiguous term. If Islamic leaders are "responsible" in one context, Bush wouldn't have to ask them to denounce "an ideology that exploits Islam," they would do it on their own. If the Islamic leaders are "responsible" in another context, asking them to denounce the "ideology" is a waste of time.
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/07/quotes-on-islam-by-president-bush.html
# America treasures the relationship we have with our many Muslim friends, and we respect the vibrant faith of Islam which inspires countless individuals to lead lives of honesty, integrity, and morality. This year, may Eid also be a time in which we recognize the values of progress, pluralism, and acceptance that bind us together as a Nation and a global community. By working together to advance mutual understanding, we point the way to a brighter future for all."
Presidential Message Eid al-Fitr
December 5, 2002
# "Islam brings hope and comfort to millions of people in my country, and to more than a billion people worldwide. Ramadan is also an occasion to remember that Islam gave birth to a rich civilization of learning that has benefited mankind."
President's Eid al-Fitr Greeting to Muslims around the World
December 4, 2002
Busch:
"We must be very clear about the enemies we face: The killers who take the lives of innocent men, women and children, are followers of a violent ideology, very different from the religion of Islam," said Bush.
"Very different from the religion of Islam...!"
Really? Sure sounds as if he knew what Islam is about.
I'm sure the invited Islamo-fascists (that got a free meal and undeserved complimentary beverages) had a good laugh at this fool.
Ahhh, but I forgot:
There is no fun in Islam, so they can't even have a good laugh at George W. Bush.
Some 'religion' that is....!
It never seems to matter who is in the White House, they keep getting wrong:
http://www.amaana.org/ramadan/clintoneid00.htm
Clinton, 2000: "United in faith, America's Muslims are also united in their commitment to building a society rich in diversity and grounded in mutual respect. I believe America is made stronger by the core values of Islam -- commitment to family, compassion for the dis-advantaged, and respect for difference. "
O.T., but on today's FPM, Lee Kaplan of Stop_the_ISM (International Solidarity Movement) outs a number of ISM affiliates, including the MAS as tax code violators and invites concerned citizens to follow up with the IRS.
URL to the article: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19908
Now that this whole business of the American President attending the Iftar dinner has gotten started, it will be hard to stop the "tradition." Well, it can be made as sober and truth-telling (and therefore unpleasant for those smilingly expecting the usual treacle) as possible.
Why not bring a few of the most unpleasant Qur'anic verses, or Hadith stories, or events in the Sira, and read them aloud, or at least allude to them, and then say, with a disingenous look, of course "we all know this does not reperesent the real, the peaceful Islam -- but you can well understand why non-Muslims would be concerned and why it is up to Muslims to explain these verses, these stories, and these details from the life of Muhammad."
In other words, let these Iftar dinners be occasions upon which to signal that the mixture as before will not do, and more importantly, for it is they who count -- as ways to educate the non-Muslim population which, always and everywhere, could stand another lesson.
Bush and others continue to be "one-note Johnnies." They keep hitting the "terrorism note." Everyone knows that terrorism is only a tactic. Polticians to the end, they can't bring themselves make correct statements...It's sickening.
Maybe next year Ariel Sharon should get an invite? That would make for some nice after dinner talk.
I beieve Mr. Bush had the stuffed pork chops for his entree.
If Geo thinks that Islam is a 'Noble Faith', why is he still a Christian? Why not just convert and get it over with. Kissing muslims, holding hands with muslims, eating with muslims. Whats next, sleeping with them? Or maybe 'next' is already here. When it comes to Islam, Geo is like a drunk in a dark room full of empty cardboard boxes, trying to find the lightswitch.
We know fully well that he did not read the Quran. Someone who has (at least browsed it), is advising him, but not good enough. The muslims at the dinner are smart enough to know that Geo is BSing them, and they are smart enough to know that he has not the slightest idea what he is talking about. They are also smart enough to take advantage of Geo's ignorance. I think it was Hamlet who said 'Me thinketh Geo talketh too much'...
Is George W a moron; are his advisors in matters Islam morons?
Or, is the White House practicing taqiyya via elision?
The regrettable President persists in leaving out the immediately previous line
"... unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land..."
Wish mischief in the land well established throughout Islamic literature as being constituted by resistance to conversion or Dhimmitude.
What is it with these Ivy Leaguers? Do they lobotomize these finishing school students as they graduate into American society. I mean, the Ivy League (plus Standford, Georgetown, Duke and a few other prestige mills) dominate the White House of all administrations, the MSM, and all the rest.
Yeah, I know they're all geniuses, cuz Ann Coulter (Dartmouth) tells me so. But how can they be so inveterately stupid?
Heyyy Fjordman posted. Nice to see your post, I've often enjoyed your site. Or, given the topic we're all discussing here, not.
In either event, what up in the NorseHouse?
Sorry I haven't posted in a while. Expanding career horizons.
Prophet Geoff
Beer Be Upon Me
"Yeah, I know they're all geniuses, cuz Ann Coulter (Dartmouth) tells me so. But how can they be so inveterately stupid?"
As my father use to say, "EDUCATED IDIOTS!" My dad was retired military (Navy 20 years, reserves 10 years - WWII, Korean, and Vietnam). He valued education, but.......not those without any practical experience yet. They always wanted to come into his Boiler Room and tell him what to do.....never worked......my dad was the CHIEF........and no wet behind the ear......little big man.....was going to practice his ignorance at the expense of blowing the entire company and it's employees to kingdom come!
I think some common sense men and women are needed in the Oval Office!
"We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust."
-- Koran 3.151
Now, given that God HIMSELF explictly calls these Moslem leaders to terror, how in the heck can they denounce it?!
Oh, sorry. I forgot about that taqiyya thing.
Anyway, surely the swarthy Moslem leaders, as they gazed up at our half-wit leader, were thinking, "He has no authority for this bullcrap he's spewing, his abode is a house of fire, and that is evil and unjust to us Moslems, and he needs a fat dose of taqiyya stuffed down his infidel throat. Note to self: call Tim Russert after Iftar..."
Atr this point Bush is a bigger threat than islam,
Renouncing terrorism means nothing. Its the Jihad stupid.
rumoret...As my father use to say, "EDUCATED IDIOTS!"
Another way of saying that is 'educated beyond their intelligence'. We see a lot of that in the world today. There is nothing wrong with a good education, in fact it is preferable, but it is no guarantee of a decent human being, nor will it relieve a person of their psychosis. Many well educated people are psychotic. Many of them have poor judgement, poor impulse control and are ego ridden. When someone in this condition is a politician we are in trouble. Many of them 'are' politicians, and we 'are' in trouble.
Combine that with "The Peter Principal". Raising a persons level of power and resposibility beyond their competance. "Kicked upstairs" so to speak. Far to many of our politicians have been elevated beyond their competance, 'kicked upstairs'. It's about time to throw them back down the stairs, and not be to gentle about it either.
Your father was right...
George Bush II (a.k.a. James Baker III) is a dhimmi
OT:
Round of applause for Fjordman, who is planning on a long, possibly permanent leave of absence from his excellent blog. Thanks for all your work for liberty.
Doesn't Bush's Iftaar message just make you want to throw up? Puke? Spew? Vomit?
the aya below is the one cited, and NOT COMPLETELY QUOTED EVER
[Yusufali 5:32]
[quote]On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.[/quote]
read this carefully, and see what it really means
"Round of applause for Fjordman, who is planning on a long, possibly permanent leave of absence from his excellent blog. Thanks for all your work for liberty."
-- Posted by: Mad_Jack
This is a major loss, cuz Scandinavia is the very heartbeat of emerging Dhimmitude, a snow-dusted Dar al Harb with little or no resistance on the war front.
Wonder if he's being shut down by the authorities up there? Scandinavia stands on the foundation of Marxism, and therefore has little regard for free speech.
If Fjordman's cashiered, does this mean that the Moslem gang rape of white women thing will spike back up again?
"I believe the time has come for all responsible Islamic leaders to denounce an ideology that exploits Islam for political ends and defiles your noble faith," he said at the White House, reports Agence France-Presse (AFP).
Noble faith? Jeezus, did he learn this in a quickie reverse psychology lesson with Karen (I'm your Dhimmi) Hughes. Ugghhh...
ploome:
what might be similarly interesting is to refer to the pre-Quoranic source of "...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people...".
I'd bet it wouldn't be justification for slaughtering the Jews of the Hejaz on a lame pretext.
This is review for most readers, but I thought it would be useful to post a detailed analysis of 5:32 for newer readers. I would like this verse to be so well known that every time people hear it, they understand what it actually says.
This snippet from verse 5:32 has been quoted out of context many times, typically after a terrorist attack. One Islamic apologist named Khouj, in National Geographic (Sept. 25, 2001), says that one needs to read 5 or 6 verses to get the whole picture. Okay. But then he proceded to crop part of verse 5:32 without mentioning the full verse and the immediately subsequent verses. Here is a typical apologist-type of cropping of the verse such that only part of it is presented:
5:32 “…whoseoever killeth a human being… it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind…”
Here is my analysis (anyone feel free to correct me).
The quote above is cut and cropped in such a way to make it have universal appeal, when in fact the verse does not refer to all people. Indeed, the very next verses actually condemn to death anyone who does not follow Allah. Let’s go through the verses 5:32-5:37, complete:
5:32 “For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whoseoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah’s sovereignty), but afterwards lo! Many of them become prodigals of the earth.”
In context, the decree doesn’t apply universally to all peoples (also see below). The verse refers to the Israelites in Biblical history (i.e., prior to the time of Mohammed), and then is presumably extended to protect believing Muslims. (Note that Jews and Christians are condemned many times in the Koran). Killing someone for “corruption in the earth/land” is permitted. “Corruption in the land,” the phrase that apologists typically remove (or hope people just gloss over), refers to the very presence and un-Islamic life-ways of non-believers (8:73). The worst possible sin is disbelief in or denial of Allah 10:17, 11:18-19, 18:15, 32:22. Disbelief or turning away from Allah is a persecution worse than warfare (2:217) or slaughter (2:191). The worst thing a person can possibly do in this world is to disbelieve in Allah. Killing is only a crime (i.e., murder) when one of Muslim mankind is the victim. (More precisely, taking the rest of the Koran into account, the sanction only clearly protects strict, Koran-adhering Muslims, or “single-minded slaves of Allah”; many verses warn that weak, casual, or mere nominal Muslims are not protected). Nowhere does the Koran say that disbelievers should not be killed, except where there is a temporary strategic benefit to Islam to keep the disbelievers alive. Disbelief is the crime. Killing disbelievers is not a crime at all. This is confirmed in the Hadith, e.g., “Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us…” Tabari IX:69. In fact, many verses in the Koran order the killing of disbelievers (4:76, 4:89, 4:91, 9:41, 9:5, 61:11, etc.). Believers must honour their duty to Allah and fight the disbelievers in battle, or else be punished in hell (2:216, 8:15-16, 9:39).
Let’s continue….
5:33 “The only reward for those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;”
Certainly, 5:33 clarifies what is to be done about those who cause “corruption in the land.” Killing and dismembering those who wage war against Allah is clearly sanctioned. What is “war against Allah”? Disbelief, the presence of disbelievers, is the greatest threat to Islam. It is the worst crime. This is why Allah is going to make an awful doom for those enemies in the afterlife. Note that Mohammad’s Allah distinguishes disbeliever from believer, but he does not distinguish soldier from civilian.
5:34. “Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.”
Those who surrender and submit their allegiance to Allah will be saved. (Keep in mind that Mohammad was, and encouraged his followers to be, ever wary of hypocrites—those who are merely pretending to submit themselves to Allah. Also keep in mind that the Koran states that captives should not be taken until a slaughter has first been made (8:67). Allah cannot be very merciful if some people must be slaughtered before they have a chance to "repent").
5:35. “O ye who believe! Be mindful of your duty to Allah, and seek the way of the approach unto Him, and strive in His way in order that ye may succeed.”
5:36. “As for those who disbelieve, lo! If all that is in the earth were theirs, and as much again therewith, to ransom them from the doom on the Day of the Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful doom.”
5:37. “They will wish to come forth from the Fire, but they will not come forth from it. Theirs will be a lasting doom.”
Disbelievers, who are atheists, agnostics, deists, non-literalists, anyone who questions or criticizes Islam, and generally people of all other religions (including Christianity and Judaism), are doomed to hellfire, and there is nothing that can be done about it—except, of course, to convert to Islam exclusively, before it’s too late. Disbelievers have committed the worst possible offence, the offence of disbelieving in Allah.
Quoted properly with the understanding of the context, and, indeed, the overarching message of the Koran, 5:32 was never intended as a sanction against the killing of disbelievers. It may be interpreted as a general sanction against killing strict Koran-adhering Muslims. Islam is far from being a peaceful ideology—quite the opposite. Islam’s imperialist policy of ‘surrender, submit, or be killed,’ is atrocious, hate-inspired, and dictatorial.
We all would have hoped that that GWB would have told that distinguished gathering of muslim leaders, trying (unconvincingly) to do his best Columbo imitation perhaps, that he still has one little problem with this here "koor-ahn'" that it says in there that you folks want to kill all the Jews and Christians, and what it says about the Hindus is even worse. Or maybe you would have wanted GWB to outright tell them, and maybe he did given his own religious convictions, that islam is the enemy of world and we are going to have it out, the promised Armageddon in the Land of Israel.
Unfortunately, we live in a sound bite world, and that last sound bite would have caused eruption not only in the muslim world but with all muslims living among the kuffars. that eruption is yet to come, but first let us make sure that in the us against them, the us is not just the U.S. and Israel in the final Armageddon . We first need to get the rest of world from the them side to the us side.
There is one sound bite, deafening by its silence, from that dinner. Why no applause, no standing ovation, when GWB said the violent extremist are followers of an evil ideology very different from the religion of islam. That silence is the sound bite that these distinguished leaders of the muslim community know in their hearts and minds that GWB's statement is false.
Why then are we, the U.S., having such problems convincing the rest of the world of the falsity of that statement? It is because, even if they know it to be false,they need to find their own moral compass and it won't be easy. They are too entangled economically with the muslim world. Germany is struggling with high unemployment and its shrinking industrial base with its star automotive power, VW, facing the loss of billions of dollars from its investment in Iran. France is totally dependent on its oil imports from hostile regimes. Russia and the U.S. are still diplomatically fighting the last war and having trouble, despite some encouraging signs, that we are facing a common enemy. If we chide them for their handling of muslims in their territories, of course they will continue to make energy deals with Tehran against our interest. China needs all the oil it can get.
The solution is to give the muslims enough rope to hang themselves, turn the tide of world-wide public opinion against them so that moral compass is found. A quick review of pre-WWII history is in order. In hindsight we now know that we should have listened to Churchill and invaded Germany in 1938 with all our might. But in 1938, the U.S. was to Britain what France is to us today. Allies, yes, but with competing interests.
In 1938, the U.S. was ranked somewhere around 15-17th in military size. The U.S. was "content" to let Europe and Asia deal with their problems. American corporations, and some of its largest employers such as GM and Ford, where heavily invested in Germany. In 1938, there was no Honda and Toyota, but Ford was the largest selling nameplate in Japan. Japan was totally dependent on the U.S. for its energy imports. The U.S. was taking in tons of money from Germany and Japan.
Then the U.S. rediscovered its own moral compass. It embargoed all oil imports into Japan. Japan retaliated by bombing Pearl Harbor and the rest is history.
Whether the U.S. embargo invited that attack and knew it was coming and concealed that form the American public, or it really was a surprise attack thinking the Japanese would hit us elsewhere or just retaliate economically by nationalizing U.S. interests in Japan, is not of issue here but provides an insight into the rationalizations now occurring in the capitals of the world. If the U.S. and Israel were to do as Churchill would have done in 1938, and go into the muslim world today, full bore with both barrels firing, would the rest of the world be behind us? Probably not, for it is not yet their fight, it is perceived as only ours. It seems we must we wait until the muslims hang themselves, letting the Europeans set themselves up for attack (assuming they are finding their moral compass), much as we may have done vis-à-vis Japan, before the conflagration can begin in earnest.
P.S.: I too join in the round of applause for Fjordman.
thanks Archemedes
RObert, why do I have to sign in everytime I want to post.it is annoying
:-)
Iftar dinner, Deen, Jihad, Kitman & Taqiyya, asallam aleikum, Allah il Allah Mohammed rasul, bismillah, rahman rahim, alhamdullilah,
What the f#*k is happening to me?
Am I learning Arabic or am I being Islamized?
Sheik Yer'mami: What the f#*k is happening to all of us? I think it is ridiculous that we, intelligent beings all, should have to waste our time parsing the words of the Anti-Christ!
A cursory glance at Surah V of the Qur'an will reveal what this (these) misquoted verse (verses) really mean: Death to the infidel, but not to the believers! Basta!
That the President of the United States of America, the greatest and most powerful country in the Western world, should allow himself to get engaged in verbal acrobatics in order to appease Muslims is a disgrace! An utter disgrace at that!
The man is a buffoon! Moreover, he doesn't deserve to occupy the office of the presidency!
Andrew Bostom: The Legacy of Jihad
Well worth reading and storing for reference.
http://www.redstate.org/story/2005/10/18/91033/928
Mark posted: The man is a buffoon! Moreover, he doesn't deserve to occupy the office of the presidency!
The correct response of the Pres was to have declared the US in a state of war, no more then 24 hours after 9/11. All else would have followed from that. Instead, we have this constant litany of islam as the RoP, islam's great contribution to..... The jihad is a perversion of islam etc. What absolute nonsense. So according to Pres Bush, Mohammed the prophet, khomeini, all the imams down the ages, have completely misunderstood the koran and have perverted the message of the koran, hadiths, sirra and sunna?
I'm afraid that it is hard to put away the thought that Pres Bush, and the advisors he has surrounded himself, are trying to handle matters that are above the level of their competancy. It is unfortunate and unlucky for them, and more importantly for us, that they have been put in this situation. In a way it is not their fault. We are in a war that is an extraordinary war, with no real parallel or equivalent in the West's immediate history. WW 1 and 2 or the Cold war do not provide any parallels. And they have not bothered to read and understand the continuous Jihad against Europe till 1683. None of them have bothered to read the history of the jihad in Persia, India and the Balkans, or understood the nature of the war thatis going on right now in Africa, Phillipines, Thailand, Kashmir and Indonesia. So our leaders are thrashing around in a sea of confusion making the same pld gesture politics and verbal semantics and hoping that the problem will go away.
Cheers.
Sheik,
Iftar dinner, Deen, Jihad, Kitman & Taqiyya, asallam aleikum, Allah il Allah Mohammed rasul, bismillah, rahman rahim, alhamdullilah,
You may include ”Itbach al-Yahood” - or ”Slaughter the Jews” which one hears increasingly often in the fair city of Copenhagen.
Ah, lest I forget, the correct reply to that is: “Chara al shwarb el mohammed” - or “(there is) a sh*t on the moustache of mohammed”.
Pretty, no?
Denouncing terrorism is one thing.
What all of us are waiting for is for these people to STOP DOING IT.
I wouldn't hold my breath.
So this is now a tradition in the US. You lot are very lucky. They should do this in the UK.
Note: "Corruption in the land," that seemingly archaic phrase that Bush's handler's keep chopping off of verse 5:32, can refer to a wide variety of un-Islamic behaviours. (Making a public expression that is counter to or critical of an Islamic tradition could constitute corruption on earth). Today, in Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia, the penalty for corruption in the land is often death.
google "corruption on earth" and "penalty"
also check out http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/StephenGill51020.htm
Thanks Thomas.
How 'bout you, 1a Shirky, cheerleader? Any mo Arabic for me?
"They should do this in the UK..."
Yeah, but not in Downing street.
Perhaps in the Findsbury mosque?
Some nice cazzo di cane, some occiali di maiale, all cooked in sugo di porco miseria.....?
That may bring the 'Mahdi' out of the woodworks...!
Bush, on the mission of the Islamists: "...Their strategy will fail."
The Koran, on people who say the Islamists will fail in their mission:
"Whoso is wont to think that Allah will not give him (Mohammad) victory in the world and in the Hereafter (and is enraged at the thought of his victory), let him stretch a rope up to the roof (of his dwelling), and let him hang himself. Then let him see whether his strategy dispelleth that whereat he rageth!" (22:15).
Couldn't Bush's handlers brief him just a little more, before he goes and talks to an audience that probably knows (and maybe even agrees with) the sentiment expressed in 22:15?
The correct response of the Pres was to have declared the US in a state of war, no more then 24 hours after 9/11. All else would have followed from that. Instead, we have this constant litany of islam as the RoP, islam's great contribution to..... The jihad is a perversion of islam etc. What absolute nonsense. So according to Pres Bush, Mohammed the prophet, khomeini, all the imams down the ages, have completely misunderstood the koran and have perverted the message of the koran, hadiths, sirra and sunna?
Right on, DP111! I myself have been saying the same thing for a long time now. This was one of Bush's biggest blunders. It has put the West on the defensive ever since, whereas we should have put the Islamic world on the defensive instead. If we had done what you said, they would have been on the defensive - BIG time!
I hear that the Saudi King is reciprocating by hosting a Xmas dinner for a select group of Saudi christians. When pigs (ooops no pigs so not to offend anyone) camels fly.....