E.U. Opens Historic Talks On Membership for Turkey

Well if Turkey joins, then the civil war will start earlier than expected, that's all.

i was watching a video clip of a demonstration in turkey yesterday, some of them were shouting "if you dont love turkey, then leave it"

it reminded me of pakistan 20 yrs ago, when you saw plenty of bumper stickers saying "love pakistan or leave it"

anybody know anything about the production of bumper stickers?

With no mandate from the people to actually pursue this folly, it is doomed to failure.

This is great news for the English - traditionally long standing opponents of the EUrabian project.

Jack Straw has unwittingly (surprise surprise) handed the English ample ammunition in its cause to remove ourselves from the undemocratic, naive socialist EU Project.

Not content with reducing England to 9 economic regions in collusion with the EU, Jack wants to flood them with illiterate Turkish New Labour voters.

I am sure that his argument that "radical Islam will sit up & take note of our inclusiveness with regards to the EU & Turkey" has been very well received in a certain cave in Pakistan & the white flag of Al Qaedas surrender is merely weeks away...

That's it. Europes screwed. We should just drop it and focus on defending America.

I also saw photos yesterday of what appeared to be large demonstrations in Turkey against EU membership. The media seems to have missed or ignored this. I was listenening to a discussion this morning on the radio about Turkey's entry into the EU. The guest (I didn't catch her name) was an economist with a think tank in Europe. She stated the negotiations and entry (if successful) would take many years - in part due to the task of Turkey's having to incorporate the EU's rules and policies. The various rules and regulations number something like 80,000 pages according to this person. No wonder their economy is increasingly moribund.

I am disgusted by what has happened here. First of all, it has to be said that the very attractive Ursula Plassnik put on a very brave display of courage yesterday. But in the end, she failed to hold out.

But do you know why she failed to hold out? Erdogan, when he could see that things were going badly for Turkey, because Austria wouldn't relent, phoned the White House to ask for Dubya's support. And, as if by magic, in a matter of an hour or so, Austria backed down. Condy had apparently stepped in. But more disgusting yet: Austria was threateed with "consequences" if it didn't back down! If this is not an example of blackmail, then what is?

I really wish George would keep his nose out of other countries' affairs. He has screwed up Iraq; and now he wants to screw up the EU, too! No wonder he and Chirac haven't been able to get on! I used to be on Bush's side. Now I am not so sure.

I wonder how Bush would take to the EU meddling in the US's internal affairs, demanding. for example, that Mexico be allowed to become a state of the US? I think we all know the answer to that, don't we?

Now, the people of Europe will have to suffer the Turks in their midst long after George W. Bush will be kicking up daisies!

Voltaire, I agree with that statement.

Once again the Euro-elite ignore the wishes of a large group of people who do not agree with Turkey being a member of the EU. They did this in their normal arrogant we know best manner, however I and many others see this as a step too far, it is basically unacceptable to us.

The EU has ignored the people for too long, but they did not learn from the French and Dutch no, they are not listening to the concern of reasonable people over Muslim immigration.

At this point I can only conclude that those people who made this decision are enemies of Western civilisation, they are misguided and wrong and they are leading us to ruin, perhaps this is one of those "let them eat cake" moments, but they do not have the wit to see that, perhaps this very decision is the begining of the end for the EU, I never thought I would hear myself say this, but I hope so.

freddie:

How ironic those bumperstickers are, considering the number of "refugee claimants" Canada and the UK are getting from Muslim regimes that aren't Muslim enough for the Muslim Brotherhood types (who get expelled) and the ordinary immigrants who love the motherland so much they want to re-make their new home to be just the same!

Voltaire,

I am with you. These are very good news.

Being myself very much against converting Europe into the EU I am glad.
With Turkey inside the EU this a-historical and anti-christian monstrosity will implode even sooner than I dared to hope.

United Europe was intended by its Catholic founders - three old men called Adenauer, De Gasperi and Schuman, who had clear memories not only of World War Two but of World War One as well - to be exactly that: a united federal state, with a federal centre only a little looser than that of the American Constitution. The last great man in Europe, Charles de Gaulle, had a slightly different view of it, but he was utterly clear on one thing: the English had, at all costs, to be kept out. The English were not a European nation. Alas, almost as soon as he lost power, a mediocre English Prime Minister, Edward Heath, managed to slip his country in by lying to both European statesmen (of course we are all in favour of the European project) and to his own electorate (Europe is nothing but a free-trade area, we are not asked to surrender our independence). Since then, Britain, soon backed by Denmark and later by Sweden - two other countries that should have been kept strictly out - has been plotting against European unity and doing everything in its power to sabotage the still dimly-remembered European project. They failed, continuously, because their nasty little nationalistic prejudices could not stand up to the force of facts; and it was the most odious and anti-European of English PMs, Meg Thug, who was forced to sign the treaty of Maastricht and then completely and comprehensively defeated at the Rome summit of 1990 (a defeat which ended her political career), when, against her stated veto, the last brilliant politician in Europe, Giulio Andreotti, managed to bring all other countries in line to accept the Euro. (Andreotti was and is a scoundrel, but he is old enough to remember De Gasperi and the ideal of Europe.)

At that point, the English, not bearing to have been defeated, hatched a new strategy: enlargement, enlargement on all sides and at all costs, in order to make Europe ungovernable and therefore impossible. Since then, they have been the chief sponsors - along with Sweden, another country that should never have been allowed in - of Turkey; not only because of pro-Muslim prejudice (and the prehistoric, buried, but still active anti-Catholic prejudice one encounters in the likes of Albion), but also because Turkey would be the ultimate impossible partner. Any Europe with Turkey in it would clearly not be able to be a political entity or have a common culture: it would be reduced to what the English always wanted it to be, a free trade area.

Now the English have won. Albion does not do Jack Straw enough honour; he and Straw are on the same side - the side of destroying Europe so as to let Britain, or rather the uncontrolled and corrupt power of Whitehall, manage its own affairs without interference. Albion, you should be glad. The rest of us ought to be thinking of what kind of knot to use to hang the treacherous Mr.Straw.

Muslims are the major social problem in England. Enormous amounts are paid, as in America, to appease the Muslims. But Straw and Blair want a lot more Muslims. Bush also wants a lot more Muslims. This is all part of this foolish strategy that we can 'tame' Islam. Has there been any civilization that merged with Islam, by conquest or by agreement? Nope.

Paolo, not all Brits were against the EU as a nation state, though I come from the point of view that it should be either many nation states and a free trade area or a single united European state based on the US model. The complete abortion that we have now benefits no-one.

But before you go any further, note that the Napoleonic war largely came about because of the economic blockade of Britain. I think that the EU would have built tarifs around them to keep out those nasty-Anglo-Saxons who are destroying the social model with their nasty free trade. So those 3 learned gentleman and De Gaulle would not have got their wish would they...

Finally De Gaulle is one of the architects of the European Arab Dialogue and in no way can I refer to him as a great man, though I do respect some of the things he did, he allowed his hatred of one man get the better of him.

"........The last great man in Europe, Charles de Gaulle" LOVFLI. That is the best, really it is. I have not laughed so hard for ages - I think I have bust a rib.

De Gaulle was a non entity, a nobody. He was invented by Whitehall to give the French a figurehead on the off chance they may grow a spine after being over run in 5 days by the Third Reich. Fact.

I remind you, Paolo, that you would have no socialist dream state if it weren't for the sacrifice's of the English.

I remind you, Paolo, that if it weren't for the American & English Taxes Europe would have had no coherent defence during the Cold War.

It never ceases to amaze me how pro EU types re-interpret history to suit their end game - a socialist superpower. Well, you ain't gonna get it.

Thanks for not reverting to your usual type when responding to me - it was getting awfully dull responding to your "fascist" rants only to await a response with baited breath. (& wait & wait & wait). Parking your breakfast, calling people names & doing a runner is simply not cricket, old man.

Albion, your knowledge of history is on a par with your reasoning abilities. Further I refuse to say, since there is no point in arguing with your likes.

Now, they say, Turkey can be an important bridge between Islam and the West.

Yes, of course, a bridge. Why didn't I think of that. If we had such a bridge jihad would be unnecessary. Taqiyya and kitman and just plain prevaricating would cease and Islam really would become a religion of peace...if we only had a bridge...Of course it's one way traffic because no one here wants to go there, but everyone there wants to come here. Hamlet said it best, " If your over there, and I'm over here, how can I collect my welfare check without a bridge", or a taxi...Hamlet understood bridgeology, he sold a few bridges in his day. He also understood the importance of drawbridges, those with a raisable section in the middle. " Alas, alas, Horatio my boy, never build a bridge without a removeable section in the middle." Prophetic words...if they must have these bridges make them drawbridges and let the gap be too wide to jump or swing across from ropes. We just cant have all that peace and love flowing in here unrestricted, it's bad for the pork industry. Hamlet was right,"To be or not to be", was the question, drawbridges, and lots of them is the answer.
He who controls the drawbridges, controls the world...That was Hamlets conclusion, maybe he was on to something...

Paolo

LOVFLI

...& to think you put yourself up as this sites moderator.......

What does it matter? Seriously, what does it matter if all of Europe falls into Islamic dominance and even the U.S. afterwards?

Sure, the years and years of fighting for equal rights and for peace and goodwill amongst all of the country’s inhabitants will be over, but I just see everything moving into a new phase of existence at that point.

No more suicide attacks coming from the ‘oppressed’ Muslims, but perhaps the Christians and Jews will, at that point, reconsider the possibility of suicide bombers and begin attacking back. Maybe they’ll dress up in the appropriate head towels, wander into Mecca around Ramadan, and set off a few bombs which take out a bunch of ‘believers’ and the crusades of old will simply shift and take on a new face. The TVs will report of the evils of the religions of old (anything that isn’t Islam, of course) and the balance will shift back and forth just as it does now.

Here in the states we have a suicide prevention hotline for those who are thinking about killing themselves. Rather than stopping them from doing so, why don’t we take those callers and ship them off to places in the Middle East and supply them with bombs? “Oh, you’re thinking about killing yourself? Well, how would you feel about doing it in a way that would help your country and assure that you do it right? After all, if you’re going to do it, you want to be assured that you do it and don’t survive to be a paraplegic or a vegetable, right? Ka-POW! Lights out!”

Seriously, if the entire world were ruled by sharia, would it stop the violence any? No. They continuously fight amongst themselves over who’s more Islamic and there’s never going to be peace even amongst themselves. Islam and sharia is a self perpetuating death machine feeding on itself for an eternal struggle with others as well as itself.

Then once the world is dominated by Islam, we can tell our children that the rights that our fathers before us fought so hard to gain and to uphold, we just let slip through our fingers slowly without many of us even noticing. We can apologize while we wrap our daughters up from head to toe and send our boys off to school to learn how to hate and be good little warriors for the jihad and for Allah. We can spend our days and nights reading the Qur’an with our right hands only, bowing and praying towards Mecca 5 times a day, and remembering the ‘time before’ only as fond, long-gone memories. We can apologize to our children, but we can’t sound like we did wrong because doing so would paint us as apostates or infidels and our own children may rat us out. Tread carefully at that point.

Does it sound like a 'Big Brother' society? No, it sounds much, much worse to me.

Asalaam Alykum, my friends...

Too right, water, re the stickers. incidentally i got your post on another thread re the possibility of imminent, decent left wing government, and of course youre right

my point was this, we mostly all have right wing governments now in the west (i think) and look whats happening

freddie:

But aren't the Germans, at least, nominally governed by a left coalition?

There was an interesting item frontpagemag.com picked up from littlegreenfootballs regarding a poll taken by the BBC as to who should run the world that you may know more about. Nelson Mandela took top spot and Noam Chomsky was fourth, but Alan Greenspan (who was appointed to run the US treasury by Ronald Regan) was fifth, followed by Microsoft's Bill Gates, Apple's Steven Jobs, Richard Branson at 9th (behind Desmond Tutu), then George Soros, whose politics are supposedly liberal, but whose business practices are not.

My point is that despite the likelihood that the poll respondents were not likely to be "conservatives", the man who has guided the United States's economy for over 20 years and the CEOs of corporations are pretty damned popular with the general public. And there are two old truism in politics: governments are not voted in; they are voted out, and the key question voters have in mind when they cast ballots is: am I better off now than I was when this government came to power. It's that simple.

But yes, I share your reverence for principled left wing types. I just can't think of too many of them who are still alive and leading any significant political organizations.

I was just reading arab comments on Turkey joining EU, one arab commentator said on alsharqalawsat.com, "this is great news for muslims. Turkey in Europe is our Trojan horse".
I whole heartedly agree with him.

A small example illustrating the capacity of the EU to change the face of Europe:

I spoke with a friend in Scotland recently and he told me that in Inverness there are 3000 Polish workers, plus their families, recently arrived following the admission of Poland into the EU. These Poles came to Scotland looking for work –- we can’t blame them for that. But the effect is that because employers are allowed to pay the Poles less than the minimum wage, there will be less available employment for locals.

Without blaming the Poles in any way, we must also look at what the effect of this will have on the city known as “The Capital of the Highlands.” And remember it’s not just the Poles who came to Inverness, but migrants from many other EU countries. The population of Inverness is 62,000 people, surprisingly small for a city so well known around the world. Assuming that the 3000 Poles represent the total Polish population of Inverness, we see that 5% of the population of Inverness is made up of recently arrived Polish immigrants. With the empty Highland glens, mountains and coasts to the west and north of Inverness, it’s only a matter of time until the Poles disperse into these areas. Poles likely assimilate very well into Scottish life. This though is an example of how small cities could be changed virtually overnight by the influx of migrant workers.

If this scenario is repeated with Turkish migrant workers, the situation might not remain so amicable. I would expect there would be less assimilation and more voluntary segregation. Demands would likely be made upon the education system, the workplace laws, the dress codes, etc. and this does not take into account the escalating social tensions that result when a city must try to assimilate a group which is basically non-accepting of its traditional way of life.

The EU must carefully consider such scenarios pending the admission of Muslim Turkey into the EU.

water - germany doesnt seem to be getting governed by anyone in particular at the moment. merkel blew a 20 point lead in the polls, and a grosser koalition with the spd now looks likely, last i heard. why schroeder should still even be in contention with 5 million unemployed is a mystery to me, but perhaps it indicates that "am i better off since this shower got voted in?" is not always valid, or perhaps voters could see the reason for the problem, namely reunification, and wanted to give schroeder more time. incidentally, oskar lafontaine, erstwhile spd, now linke/pds, wants foreigners out of germany, unless they are working and paying taxes, and can speak german. sounds like a right good dose of left wing sense to me

i would certainly not have chomsky running the world. i mean some folk are just meant to oppose and point out faults ( rightly or wrongly) and others are meant to lead. as for branson, for goodness sake what were they thinking of? the guy cant even get his trains to run on time

This is a disaster for Europe.

What's so attractive about Turkey and what would its "numerous" contributions be?

Perhaps only this: the cheap labour, the "brown gold" now populating Anatolia.

I can't think of anything else. With the Soviet Union now gone even Turkey's overrated geo-political role as bullwark against communism is obsolete.

To boot, Turkey's much-vauted "historical/cultural ties" to The West amount to little more than spats of unprovoked aggression and beligerence aimed at conquest and forced conversion, and so its adhesion to the EU can't be anything else but a cynical business decision.

Luke's assessment of White House interference is probably spot on, as well. Austria's sudden and unexplained capitulation is more than likely due to some form of blackmail.

I'm not sure I support Bush anymore either. If the guy shills for the Saudis (and DOES he!), then he'd do likewise for the Turks. In fact, he appears to have done so.

Worthless two-bit schmuck!

One other thing; why are Europeans NEVER allowed to vote on such important questions? Fewer than 35% of the EU's citizens, according to polls I've seen, support Turkey's full membership.

Paolo:

While I often agree with you and look forward to your posts, have you been drinking too much Chianti? De Gaulle the last great man of Europe - The last great ego perhaps. This is the imbecile who, while on a state visit, stood on a balcony of Montreal's city hall and proclaimed "Vive le Quebec libre". He was shortly thereafter politely (unfortunately) asked to leave the country. If Pearson had any balls, he would have thrown DeGaulle into the St. Lawrence and told him to start swimming.

As this issue is pushed ever more forcefully on unwilling populations under escalating attack by millions of Muslim immigrants already living in the heart of Europe, one wonders whether or not there will be an EU to join in ten years.

Jen - weve had poles here in scotland since the war. i know a few and theyre great. weve had italians since the 30s, likewise. the point youre making about turkish immigrants is most valid. we cannot expect theyll get into the spirit of our country in the same way. i mean look at kreuzberg/kottbusser tor district in berlin, where half of them cannot speak german after 25 yrs +

the only turks i know here are the ones running the local kebab shop. the woman is a lovely girl, open and friendly and keen to learn english. but her husband, though outwardly respectable to the point of pomposity, is a heroin addict and is dealing from the shop, and everyone knows it cept the police, apparently

Freddie - I'm a Scots-Canadian and so I know about the Poles (many are descendants of Polish soldiers from WWII I believe) and the Italians (many are descendants of Italian POWs who didn't want to leave)in Scotland. Yes, I agree - they're well liked and respected, and no one blinks an eye when a Liebnitz or a Rizza, for example, opens an ice cream shop - or wins a school prize, in with all the McLeods, Thomsons, and Stewarts. Other than adding a bit of welcome flavour (will that be chocolate or strawberry?) to the Scottish scene, these newcomers have fitted in seamlessly.

I think the tolerant Scots would welcome Turks just as warmly -- except that I predict that the expected Muslim demands would run into the brick wall of Scottish standards in freedom, education, and personal integrity. That, now, will be an interesting day - - and I know there have been hints of future cultural/religious battles in Glasgow for example, but I'm betting on the Scots.

Condoleeza Rice and the rest of the American government pulled out all the stops on Turkey's behalf. Phone calls to Austria, Cyprus, god knows where else. Why? For the same reason that they keep pursuing the will-o'-the-wisp in Iraq of a Light Unto the Muslim Nations. They just don't know what else to do. They cannot conceive of rethinking their whole view, of sitting down calmly and learning about Islam, and ignoring what Espositos and Armstrongs and even at the limit, Bernard Lewis may tell them, and coming to understand how those texts are or at least naturally can be received, how deeply expressive of those texts has been the history of Jihad-conquest and subjugation, through time and space, of non-Muslims, how deeply flawed have been recent -- but not older -- Western accounts of Islam (see, for a start, and examples, "The Legacy of Jihad"), how meretriciously defensive Muslims, even the most outwardly sophisticated and westernized and skeptically humorous, can suddenly become, when they sense, as they often do, that Islam is under attack (they can say somethinga bad about it -- but just you wait if a non-Muslim tries the same thing in their presence), nearly hysterical. It is an astonishing thing, which one becomes accustomed to through experience -- but if Condoleeza Rice and George Bush and others do not study Islam, do not see what sets it apart from all other belief-systems now called "religions," and fail to realize that there is no reformation possible because one cannot change the immutable Word of God, which is what the Qur'an is, and as for beginning to emend the Life of Muhammad -- well, forget about it. It won't work. It's a pie-in-the-sky forlorn hope.

And then one would have to think of oter things to do. And they can't. They won't. They lack imagination. They lack historical sense, which is just as important as knowing facts. They lack a feel for geopolitics (who even uses the word anymore, who refers to Alfred Thayer Mahan and Halford Mackinder and all those chess-masters adjusting, or at times merely adoubing, their pieces on the globe), and talk instead of how Everyone Wants the Same Thing -- Freedom, Democracy -- without the slightest evidence for this, and will little indication that they themselves understand either what modern Western democracy means (beyond mere head-counting) or how difficult and complicated and lengthy the process by which it was achieved. Knowing so little, they fail to understand how it came about, and how difficult that coming-about was, and how impossible it is to even think of transplanting such a thing to the stony soil of primitive and Muslim and tribal and fear-ridden and riven-by-ethnic-and-sectarian-hatreds-that-long-predate-the-American-presence Iraq.

In the annals of idiocy, this phase of the Iraq War is sure to take some kind of cake. Not, one hopes, the kind that Marie Antoinette would let them eat, just before the tumbrils started to roll, and les tricoteuses stuck to their knitting.

albion posted: Jack Straw has unwittingly (surprise surprise) handed the English ample ammunition in its cause to remove ourselves from the undemocratic, naive socialist EU Project.

The motive may be to destroy the EU and not just to withdraw Britain from it.

Britain's foreign policy towards Europe for hundreds of years, has been dictated by one principle - not to allow continental Europe, or any one country within it, to become a power to threaten these isles. This has been a constant in British policy - much like Russia constantly seeking warm water ports.

Many maintain that Britain tried to break the EEC when it was a fledgeling organisation by not joining it, then joined with a view (as DeGaulle consistently maintained) to destroying it from within. This has been the suspicion in Europe all along. From a European perspective, Britain has always been at odds with the concenusus in Europe. There are far too many instances of this to be dismissed as mere coincidence.

Jack Straw is merely following the position papers handed to him from the FO, and the fish could be much bigger then just Turkey or Britain.

What do you think?

DP111: Yes, I think much of the reason for both the American and the British backing for Turkey is the desire to at least water down, if possible destroy the EU. But it's a very dangerous game with high stakes, possibly the very survival of Western civilization in Europe. I don't feel comfortable with this.

i only hope and pray that my fellow fundamentalists in usa have been reading these columns in the last few days, where, re turkey, the black heart of the bush/rice/rumsfeld crew has been laid bare, and that they will change their voting patterns accordingly

and what have they been rewarded with, for their support? zilch

i mean, is it actually true that muslim kids can pray in schools, but christian kids cant?

is it actually true that federal employees cannot even wish each other "happy christmas", but that they have to say "happy holidays" instead?

this is what im hearing on this side of the atlantic, but surely it cant be true

In light of the rejection of the EU constitution by voters in France and the Netherlands, one would think that this sort of thing will doom the EU. Won't voters all over Europe back anti-EU candidates? How many Islamic bombings does it take?

Every day I feel more and more fortunate to be an American. By an accident of geography, the immigrants who come here to do the work Americans do not want to do are Latino. They will never try to blow themselves up, or force their women to walk around in portable prisons, or restrict everyone else's freedoms because something offends them. This makes me want to go find the sweatiest, dirtiest, most exhausted Latino immigrant laborer and give him a big hug and peck on the cheek for being such a reasonable fellow!

Quijybo

Albion,

"...I have not laughed so hard for ages - I think I have bust a rib

De Gaulle - Europe’s last great man! Hilarious, indeed.

If he was “great” then what name should one reserve for W. Churchill, or K. Adenauer?
The last great man of Europe was Maggie Thatcher- not that pompous, mean, cantankerous Anglophobe distrusted by the allies during the war and grudgingly tolerated after it. Well, I guess, if one makes a place for France in the Great Power Club one needs to carry on with the charade and pretend to take him seriously. The farce must go on!

And “Vive Québec libre” was soon followed by nasty, foul-smelling expletive “that arrogant people” hurled at Jews. Some greatness…

BTW. Albion, what does "LOVFLI" stand for?

Freddie - it's all true, I'm afraid. But Christians in the US have the same problem as Christians in Europe: who the fuck do you vote for, if not that particular crew of freaks? Consider that last time the choice was between G.W.Bush and a man who ostentatiously and sacrilegiously took the Eucharist while promoting unrestrained abortion, gay marriage, and - who knows - probably euthanasia as well. As for Europe, with the single exception of Italy the situation is even worse. Sure, there are parties that call themselves - out of habit and a still-perceived need to appeal to the Christian vote - Christian Democrats. They merrily join coalition governments in places like the Netherlands where gay marriage and euthanasia are the law of the land and actively promoted on "moral" grounds. When the elite has elaborately and consistently been excluding genuine Christians from the process of government for forty years at least, either Christians do not vote (as I have been doing for years, save for the chance to kick Ken Livingstone out) or, as Italian writer Indro Montanelli urged long ago, "stop their noses" and pick the least intolerable scoundrel. That is all G.W.Bush ever was: the least bad choice.

Orhan Pamuk, a brilliant Turkish writer . . .

from Time Magazine On-line, 9/15/99
"Orhan Pamuk, Turkey's best-selling novelist, has more than his fair share of critics. The country's Islamic intellectuals accuse him of exploiting religious and historical themes all in the name of Western post-modernism.

At the same time Turkey's secular establishment--composed of ardent westernizers--is perturbed that Pamuk's irreverence for state ideology should find so appreciative an audience in the West itself. Some condemn his books as difficult and self-absorbed. Yet Pamuk's novels are nothing short of a publishing phenomenon in Turkey, and the government recently tried--and failed--to present him with its highest cultural accolade.

"For years I have been criticizing the state for putting authors in jail, for only trying to solve the Kurdish problem by force, and for its narrow-minded nationalism," says Pamuk of his refusal last December to accept the prestigious title of state artist. "I don't know why they tried to give me the prize.

What is happening to Orhan today?

Washington Post, Sept. 1, 2005
ISTANBUL, Aug. 31 -- "An acclaimed Turkish novelist, Orhan Pamuk, has been charged with the "public denigrating of Turkish identity" and faces a possible prison sentence of three years, his publisher said Wednesday.

The charge stems from an interview that Pamuk gave to a Swiss newspaper in February in which he said certain topics were regarded as off-limits in Turkey. As examples, he listed the massacre of Armenians in 1915 and the ongoing war between Turkish security forces and Kurdish guerrillas."

This is the fate that awaits writers and intellectuals in eurabia.

And should I mention the name, Theo VanGogh?

Thomas H. - I lived under Meg Thug. She had all the greatness of a canting, rootless egotist and the most grating personality I ever met. Her government was a catastrophe; it was estimated that by the time her own exasperated party threw her out, Britain no longer had the resources to wage a Falklands War again (and that utter Thugherite, the Tory Blur, has continued to cut Britain's military strength while committing the units spared from the axe to more and more foreign adventures). And as for privatization - I have seen both Italian and American local politics close up, but I tell that until you have seen privatization at work, you have not seen what corruption in public life really is. Either you are one of her fanatical and untreatable worshippers, in which case I do not want to waste my words, or you have been sold a bill of goods.

Fjordman:

Hi there. Were you on a holiday? I was, and had a lovely time in Italy. Rome ofcourse is a city that I visit often.
----------------------------------
I also recall, that both Britain and the US were and are, vehemently opposed to the EU setting up a defence force. If Britain and the USA are so keen in seeing the EU as a force of in world affairs, and believe that Turkey will help in achieving that, I find this position in contradiction with their position on EU defence policy.

Now I'm not demanding consistency in political affairs. However, consistency towards achieving strategic goals is a must. Both Britain and the US are playing a very dangerous game. The unintended consequences, due to a failure to understand the reality of political islam, and the assumption that islam can be managed, may lead to a global civil war. European civil wars are no laughing matter. WWI and WWII are examples.

Turkey was smart to stay out of the last European civil war. By joining the EU it may not be so lucky this time round.

johnb:

Like you, I also read Paolo's comments with great interest and note that not only am I old enough to remember DeGaulle's pronunciation at the opening of the World's Fair in Montreal, but more importantly, I can also remember DeGaulle as the leading European light when it came to demonizing Israel and championing the Palestinians (possibly even in advance of the Soviets' change of position)in order to ingratiate himself with the Arab oil producers.

I haven't read Bat Ye'or's Eurabia, but I believe I've read excerpts on this site wherein she describes this as the critical turning point in Europe's alignment on Israel/Palestine.

Quijybo: portable prisons

Talking of portable prisons, have a look at the cartoon here

http://uppompeii.blogspot.com/

Poetess - mention theo by all means - the oftener the better sfar as im concerned

paolo i dont think voting means much any more to be honest with you - look at uk, the tories and new labour are virtually indistinguishable, and as for the lib dems...

i havent voted in years myself, as we now say "if voting changed anything, they would ban it". like a lot of folk, im beginning to think the only way to achieve change is direct action by grass roots movement. Bleuh has established a kind of government which i dont think will go away in a while. the whole notion of parliament seems to be gradually fading away

the trouble is where is the grass roots movement against the heap of shite that is islam?

Paolo,

My posting was about the preposterousness of electing de Gaulle for the place of the Last Great Man of Europe – not about M. Thatcher. It would have carried the same message without my mentioning her at all. You are creating a straw man. You often do.

As for your impression and judgment of M. Thatcher gained during the years you “lived under” her; you are of course entitled to voice them as much as you want. However I would like to remind you that you were not the only one. In fact there are many people, quite a few WAY more knowledgeable, balanced and informed than you can ever hope to be, who present opinion quite opposed to and infinitely more convincing than yours. And, incidentally, they accomplish so without attempts of browbeating that characterizes so many of your postings.

Please have a look at that:

“Either you are one of her fanatical and untreatable worshippers, in which case I do not want to waste my words,..

How silly..
In other words either one agrees with Paolo, or one is “fanatical and untreatable worshipper” of M. Thatcher. Somehow you don’t consider the possibility that one may find, beside one’s personal experience, the opinions of other experts more convincing than your angry, inadequate and uncivil argumentation.

As for your promise that you shall not waste your words on me; I’m confessing I am not exactly traumatized by it.

I used to be pro European Union just for the fact that it created peace amongst warring or potentially warring nations. But no more. The EU is now a monster out of control with a cabal of mainly unelected people like Peter Mandelson who arrogantly ignore the wishes of ordinary people and steamroller through unpopular decisions behind people's backs. The rejection of the Constitution by the French and Dutch should have been a wake up call to these people that we are not going to tolerate Turkey being let in through the back door. There will be bloodshed over this, mark my words. These fools think Islamists will be appeased by Turkey's acceptance but just the reverse will occur - they will be enraged at being absorbed by Infidel Europe and will launch a sustained and even more severe attack on our democracies than they are already doing.

Bush, Martin, and Fox want to create the same EU nightmare here in the US.

An integrated North American zone, with OF COURSE, the "free flow" of goods and services between countries. Including little presents from Al Qaeda, I suppose.

Of course, they haven't been discussing it with the peons. That bill of impeachment is looking better every day.

Fortunately there is still 10 years to go, and the behavior of Muslims without Europe, and without, is guaranteed to be such that it will queer forever Turkey's application.

It is fascinating to see Erdogan and other Turkish propagandists prate about Europe as a "Christian club." This will come as news to most Europeans, and certainly to the vicars and priests staring wanly at those empty pews, and wondering what to do. Europe is not a "Christian club" and hasn't been for a long time. It has a Christian heritage. Much of its past art and literature cannot be understood without reference to, and understanding of, such things as the King James Bible, the Book of Common Prayer, the Douai Bible, and Christian iconography. But this does not make it a "Christian club" anymore than knowledge of the Old Testament makes one part of a "Jewish club." Come to think of it, if Erdogan regards or pretends to regard Europe as a "Christian club" that must prove itself not to be such by admitting Turkey, probably believes in a Jewish club, which is to say, for someone like Erdogan, a Zionist Conspiracy and so on and so forth.

How can he utter the phrase "Christian club" with a straight face? Does he not know that Europe is thoroughly and now almost hysterically secular? And does he know of any group or club of presumably "Christian" countries? Of course he does not; none exists.

But there does exist the O.I.C., the Organizatio of Islamic Countries. Why, its new Secretary-General is a Turkish historian of science (full of exaggerated claims for Muslim science, and crazy justifications for the failure of Muslims to develop this or that device -- such as the clock -- which then was developed solely in that "Christian club" (as it then was) of Europe). That particular historian dared, in a speech given in the United States, to discuss all the wonderful things that happened to non-Muslims as "Protected People." (This was mentioned in a post, some time ago, at JW).

Erdogan belongs to an "Islamic club" whose members, including Erdogan himself, wildly applauded the hysterical rant of the outgoing President of Malaysia, Mahathir Mohamed, in which he urged the Muslims of the world to unite, in order to overcome their backwardness relative to non-Muslims, and to achieve great things, and above all other things, to develop powerful weapons of war.

Among the requests that the E.U. should demand of Turkey is that it resign as a member of the O.I.C. For an organization that is most definitely in every fiber of its being an "Islamic Club," and that furthermore entertains the most hideously aggressive of speakers (such as the Malaysian President), squirting his venom at all non-Muslims, the Europeans, Christian clubbers or not, have a right to demand that this would-be new member quit memberships in any organization that would discriminate against them -- as non-Muslims.

It is no different from the demand made on Americans who are up for major political appointments. If they are discovered to belong to clubs that bar blacks or Jews or others, they either must resign at once, or their candidacy is dead.

So should it be with the viciously discriminatory and hostile O.I.C. Turkey resigns from it, or its candidacy for the E.U. is dead.

That is one of the three requests, not to be denied, that must be demanded of Turkey.

The other two are:

1) Formal recognition by Turkey of the Armenian genocides (the two -- the one in 1894-96, and the one that began in 1915), as well as other murders of non-Muslims (Assyrians, Maronites)committed by Turks and Kurds, in the name of Islam, committed against not Armenians qua Armenians, but Armenians as Christians

2) Allowing Hagia Sophia to be a working church again -- not only for Turks who might wish to "revert" to Christianity (how many Muslim Turks are in fact the descendants of forcibly converted or kidnapped Armenian and Greek Christians, or Jews?), but also for those future brothers in the E.U., who would like, should the spirit move them, to attend church in what was for a thousand years the most important church, in the most important city in Christendom. Since there are mosques all over Europe, since there is a mosque in Rome built on land donated by the Italian government not a mile from the Vatican, surely the Turks should now show themselves ready to reciprocate in kind.

These are three of the demands that must be made -- not later, but now.

And there may be others. I think I can come up with a few more. Can't you?

Call me religious, but it looks like the final part of the Statue in Daniel 9 (I think) is coming true. Iron mixed with clay. A superstate that has many groups, yet will not stick together. The last great superpower that will influence the course of Israel. The revived Roman Empire, and there will be nothing “holy” about it.

As a person who works with the youth, I frequently tell my young male youths NOT to get involved in the coming Eurabian Civil War. Let them stew in it.

Aussie's died for Europe twice. And for what? For the ungrateful French to drop nuclear bombs in the Pacific, the fall out of which reaches our shores. And as for the English? They re-wrote much of the history to show that many of the great Aussie victories were actually 'English' ones – like Lawrence of Arabia being the one to liberate Israel (and Jerusalem) from 1500years of Muslim rule, when it was actually the ANZAC's who led the way and did just about all of the Muslim headkicking (Lawrence after all had a Muslim army. The ANZAC’s were a predominantly infidel Christian army. Which one do you think would be more effective at fighting the Muslim Turks?).

As an Australian I am VERY proud of this, and I know of fellow Aussie’s who have visited Israel and had tour guides state, “If it weren’t for you Australians, Israel would not be here”. It’s a sad fact that today’s Australian society, from the baby boomers down, have no knowledge of this, yet the Israeli Jews do!. Or the fact that the Europeans have shown their ungratefulness by constantly critiquing our immigration policies, and our good friend the USA, while they happily give their Europe (sadly including England) over to Islam.

No, when the Third European War erupts, I don't want any young Aussie (or USA) men bleeding for this corrupt, evil, anti Christian, socialist, yet seductively beautiful place, Europa. They wanted the Muslims, they can live with, (or is that under?) the Muslims. As the saying goes, “you made your bed, now sleep in it”.

londongirl, when it all erupts, hop on a plane to Australia. Goodness knows we need more Westerners in our immigration make up! They wouldn't even give my native indigenous English father citizenship - he had to fight for it for around 5 years. As he put it, he was the "wrong colour", yet the “Australian” Mufti under the Lefty Labour government gets in ASAP! Londongirl, come over now! Howard is pushing for skilled labor, and he has started the push in Europe first (I only hope he is targeting real Europeans, and not Muslims). So if you are qualified, come over! My sister married a Pommy bloke, and before we knew it his brother had married an Aussie girl as well! They both love it here (but they miss family in London). I hope that my “blind” relatives in London wake up and smell the Islam is Peace BS. One almost got blown up on 7/7, he slept in and missed his (blown up) bus!

The EU doesn't actually bring peace. The only thing that has brought 50 years of peace to Europe is that the A-Bomb deterrent, combined with Western values of love for family, all the way from England across to Russia has ensured peace.

Pity the same cannot be said about Muslim mothers and fathers who delight in the fact that their children are suicide bombers. A nuclear suicide bomber (using a theatre nuke) is just around the corner. Especially for Europe.

That is all G.W.Bush ever was: the least bad choice.

Posted by: Paolo at October 4, 2005 05:24 PM

That pretty much sums it up, although I must confess that I would never vote for a Democrat for president.

GWB is a miserable disappointment and I am now convinced that he is not a Conservative; in fact, I'm not sure what he is! He spends money like it grows on trees, and on programs nobody wants. He harps on the "war on terror" continuously but refuses to protect our borders. Anybody can stroll into the U.S. and disappear; God only knows how many muslim terrorists have done just that.

I have almost beat my brains out trying to understand why he is so insistent that Turkey be admitted to the E.U., and it remains a complete enigma to me. I could be losing my mind, but every day I see more evidence pointing to the "New World Order" theory, and Bush seems to be pushing this country straight in that direction. He defends the corrupt, useless, obscene U.N.; he advocates open borders with Mexico; he got his education bill passed, No Child Left Behind, and its federal curriculum and mandates to reshape perceptions and loyalties, indoctrination disguised as 'knowledge'; the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, especially the Second Amendment, disguised as obsolete antiques, headed for the trash heap. The FedED bill gives the federal government 90% control of our schools for an investment of 6.5% of the funding. It orchestrates the final movement in the dissolution of our national sovereignty, and is a plan to reshape human resources for a global worldview and future.

He put immense pressure on Congress to pass CAFTA, and has openly supported the U.N. LOST treaty of the seas, which surrenders U.S. sovereignty on the seas and compromises our national defense. With every signed U.N. treaty, we throw away more of our sovereignty and the most galling aspect of this is that we're surrendering it to a cabal of treacherous, corrupt, thugs and career bureaucrats.

He still talks like a capitalist, but acts like a Texas billionaire with money to burn. His primary focus is on the economy,(after the war on terror), the free market, small business, and since hurricane Katrina, he has become a hand-wringing, bleeding heart liberal sympathizer for the "poor", ever downtrodden despite the trillions spent since Johnson declared his "War on Poverty." Now he's talking about federalizing all future disaster response, which amounts to declaring martial law in a national emergency. The man is really beginning to scare the hell out of me!

To be entirely candid, I believed he understood the threat of Islam but I see now that he doesn't have a clue. But John Kerry would have surrendered to the terrorists by now, had he been elected. If all of the learned scholars and politicians really want to "get to the root" of the problem, they should start by exploring the glorious Qur'an instead of endlessly throwing pity and money at the incorrigible Islamic world. Damn, it seems like SOMEBODY in the Bush administration would have figured out that we're in a struggle for our survival against an enemy worse than communisim, worse than fascism, worse than anything we have ever faced and it's not "terrorism", it's ISLAM.
I find it rather interesting that about the same time the U.S. passed the 1965 Immigration Reform Act, which allowed the third world to invade America, muslims began immigrating en masse to Europe. Guess I'm having another NWO paranoia attack.

Susanp - I am not a conservative like you; in fact I have the honour of having been called a Socialist by the twerp Albion, one of those people who think that to call a thing Socialist is the same as to condemn it. And if the left was now what the left was once - the party of the poor and of organized labour, rather than of organized homosexuality - I might consider it. But a man like Kerry is not less but more obscenely capitalistic and elitist than GWB. It is the Democratic-type left, in America, that now has all the massed ranks of billionaires - Gates, Turner, Buffett, Soros, Theresa Heinz. The interest of such people in poverty relief programs has to do not with helping the poor, but with gaining control over them; as you can see from their rabid reaction to any program they cannot control - e.g. faith-based ones. In this, but in little else, they are like the rabid Communists of long ago, who hated every trades union or popular movement - Catholic, Socialist, Anarchist - that they could not control.

All the same, we suffer from the same problem: the coalescing of political elites into one gloppy mass that negates real political struggle and treats the people as a reservoir of votes to be periodically tapped to confirm their legitimacy. The election of GW Bush to his second term was nothing short of an insurrection, in which tens of millions of Americans first registered and voted to tell the elite that they were neither legitimated nor supported; and the result was that Bush has done nothing but show the most pathetic hankering to become acceptable to the elite - which will, however, never accept him, because it cannot swallow the insult of having been trashed at the polls. The procedure is the same, though with less physical brutality, as with the popular vote for the last Iranian president: the Iranian elite perceived it, as indeed it was, as "cheek" and defiance on the part of those whose part was to shut up and obey, and they proceeded to snuff out their hopes in rivers of blood and then obscenely manipulate the next election to insure the victory of the most radical elite supporter. In the US, they are already waiting for their own Ahmedinajad, in the knowledge that such a burst of anger and defiance as November '04 cannot be mobilized twice.

Oh, now I am being patronized by Thomas H. He has such knowledge, the poor darling. Such knowledge, that he did not even bother to answer my point about the loss of military and political power under Meg Thug, her abject collapse at Maastricht, and her final rout at Rome. Perhaps in your propaganda readings you have not come across those facts. Perhaps you are not aware of the depths of shameless corruption in which Britain is now sunk. Perhaps you do not care about the structural three million unemployed which remained (in spite of 27 separate changes in counting methods) as long as she was Crime Sinister, and which I have to admit Brown and Bliar have been efficiently mopping up. Perhaps the views of people who experienced her glorious reign - 58% of whom consistently voted against her - should be overwhelmed by the ramblings of the same kind of mercenary scribblers who now can be found to defend Bush or Kerry. And perhaps you ought to treat those of us who know what Thugcherism is really like - a heresy of Marxism with the same obsession with the class struggle and the same greed for power at all costs - with less pathetic contempt.

To be entirely candid, I believed he understood the threat of Islam but I see now that he doesn't have a clue. ... Damn, it seems like SOMEBODY in the Bush administration would have figured out that we're in a struggle for our survival against an enemy worse than communism, worse than fascism, worse than anything we have ever faced and it's not "terrorism", it's ISLAM.(Susanp)

To be entirely candid, Susanp, I, too, believed he understood the threat of Islam in the beginning; but I, too, have long since come to the conclusion that "he doesn't have a clue"!

He doesn't have a clue because he refuses to admit to what is staring him in the face, smacking him in the gob, grabbing him - if you will forgive me - by the short and curlies! Moreover, he refuses to learn.

He keeps on insisting that Islam is a 'religion of love and peace', when all common sense says that it isn't and cannot be, and all reading and knowledge of it proves, intellectually, that it never has been, and never can be.

In his insistence on his 'wierd and wonderful' theory, he is actually doing the free world a great disservice, since he is blurring the task ahead: To defeat Islam. He is also making the situation unintelligible to the ordinary man in the street, who has little or no understanding of Islam, and still less desire to learn.

It is not possible to be a good, strong leader in time of war if one steadfastly refuses to identify the enemy. Moreover, it is certainly not possible to defeat that enemy without first identifying it.

Bush hasn't even taken the first baby step in its identification: He cannot see that his 'war on terror' is nothing of the sort - it's the jihad in action. For, in truth, this is what we are actually fighting; and no Pakistani 'ally', or Saudi 'ally' can fight this force with us, because they are part of the problem, not the solution - they are on the other side.

Bush made a huge blunder in going in to Iraq, since he went in there believing he could bring democracy to that country, and believing still further that this form of government would spread throughout the Middle East, as if by osmosis. The man was a fool! And an ignorant fool at that! For in trying to achieve this unachievable goal, he showed he had absolutely no understanding either of the Islamic faith or the history of its cancerous growth!

As a result, we now see that Shariah is being installed as the form of government of choice in Iraq. Conclusion: Islam has moved westward because of his folly. But, not satisfied with this, he is now insistent, too, that Turkey be integrated into the European family. This policy will ensure that Islam moves even further West, so far West in fact that it will envelop the whole of Europe in a short time.

I feel sorry to say it, since I do not like making disparaging remarks about a US president. I have always considered the Americans to be our greatest allies, our greatest friends, our beacon of liberty. I have always had the greatest respect for the institution of the presidency.

However, I have to admit that this president, although he started off appearing to me that he was in control, is actually nothing of the sort. He is making a dog's dinner out of the war against Islam.

He is clueless! Furthermore, in his cluelessness, he is making the world a very unstable place. Far more unstable than it needs to be.

But to add insult to injury, under his watch, the Islamic world is making steady advances westward. Although he is supposed to be a Christian, he doesn't understand the first thing about how his co-religionists have been persecuted over the centuries by this cancer that is metastasizing apace!

As you rightly point out: This enemy is worse than communism, worse than fascism, and worse than National Socialism. It is indeed worse than anything we have faced.

The crusaders knew of its dangers. People today are woefully ignorant of them.

I can only see two possible hopes for Europe:

1) turkey does something incredibly typical of islam (genocide, invasion of neighbour, etc.) and the world sees the truth.

2) The Germans stop lying to themselves. Germany is (nuclear missiles aside) the most powerful nation in Europe, and every German has the fire of nationalism burning inside them, I know this personally. Since the war, they've put their nationalism into the EU. If they learn that the EU is a sham, they might redirect their pride back into Germany, and fight back.

Of course, if turkey gets into the EU, we're screwed. They'll be the second most powerful nation there, besides the Germans.

I can only see two possible hopes for Europe:

1) turkey does something incredibly typical of islam (genocide, invasion of neighbour, etc.) and the world sees the truth.

2) The Germans stop lying to themselves. Germany is (nuclear missiles aside) the most powerful nation in Europe, and every German has the fire of nationalism burning inside them, I know this personally. Since the war, they've put their nationalism into the EU. If they learn that the EU is a sham, they might redirect their pride back into Germany, and fight back.

Of course, if turkey gets into the EU, we're screwed. They'll be the second most powerful nation there, besides the Germans.

Poor Paolo,

Laughs Out Very Fuckin Loud Indeed

Paolo, there are sooo many of your toys outside of your pram now that I am getting concerned that you will have nothing left to amuse yourself with - except for dreams of a perfect EU socialist super duper state, with De Gaulle as its spiritual figurehead.

By the way, there are several replies waiting for you on other threads where you have parked your breakfast, called people names & then ran off.

It seems that Europe today with Turkey is similar to Europe in the 1930's with Nazi Germany, in that governments are not prepared to stand up to it.

I think the reason why Britain has been so active in promoting Turkish entry is that Blair hopes to be the president of Europe when the time comes when we vote for one. He is canvassing the Muslim vote already, hoping they'll vote for him because he did most to let Turkey in.

Britain has a long record of dragging its feet in Europe, but I don't think that this is because it has been trying to sabotage the EU, but because the British have not historically thought of themselves as European, and because they feel that they have been paying in more tha they have been getting out of it. Europe expanded to take in the many East European nations when Ireland had the presidency and had a referendum as to let these countries join or not. They probably voted 'yes' because Eire does not have a history of large immigration but emigration, seeking places to go to, and also maybe feeling that the bigger the EU became, the more grants and benefits Ireland would acrue.

I don't quite see what the East European and Baltic countries felt that they stood to gain by having Turkey as a member. Nations like Poland seem to have joined so that their people can go and find work in Western Europe, so can't quite see what they would gain by having competion for those jobs coming from Turks. Also these lands do not yet have sizeable Muslim populations so it is not as if they are trying to canvas the Islamic vote like in Western European countries. Maybe they just went along with the others because they were not confident enough to say 'no'.

Albion, you are everything I detest, from a ranting religion-hater to a Little Englander to a Thugcherite to a racist (in spite of your disingenuous disclaimers a long time ago). the only thing you have missed so far is Islam, but that is because you need something to hate. What makes you think that I have time to waste answering you?

Oh Paolo,
There you go again, calling names & running away.

How very European of you.

I am none of the things you state, except Little Englander which I take as a compliment. Thank you.

The problem with you as I see it, Paolo, is that you cannot stand any outside criticism of your faith or any challenges to your narrow thinking -you never let the light of modern day
thinking break through the dogma.

Sounds like another "franchise" we occasionally chat about around here.

You cannot even look into the dark recesses of your box, lest it offend thine scripture, let alone go "outside".

You never allow anything to challenge your belief structure.

Why?

Are you so timid, so fragile in your beliefs that you think that merely by being confronted with alternate views you will lose your faith? Your self righteousness? Your superiority complex? Your religious anger?

Or are you, deep down, quite an intolerant kind of guy?

I just know you are one of those who complained about Monty Pythons Life of Brian - without ever seeing it.

I picture you as the "born again" Sunday morning pavement plodder type, pushing leaflets through my door (not on recycled paper, I might add),
condemning the utter blasphemy of "South Park".

You are unchanging. As witnessed on countless occasions on a myriad of threads, you are quick to throw hissy fits & condemn, using false labels for those that offend your over calibrated take on the world.

And you had the audacity & temerity to put yourself forward as this sites Moderator? ho.ho.ho.

Paolo, if you are a Christian, don't get mad & reach for the keyboard, forgive me or whoever else you are mad at on this site, its what Jesus would want you to do - not call me names that are sooooo far from the mark it cheapens the name you called me, making it less
effective the next time someone actually does confront a "fascist".

By the way, if you read my offending texts again you will see that I do denounce, as ever fascism - & I do, in all its various & nefarious forms, including yours. This is not for show, or to "fit in" with you. My families history of fighting & dying for the struggle against European fascism are a source of great pride for me & my family - we honour them as heroes of humanity, not just England.

As for your anguished "I lived under Thatcher" nonsense - where did you live under Thatcher in England?

Was it, like me, born in a small traditional mining town in the North? I don't think so.

Whatever the rights & wrongs of the "Iron Lady" -she knew that without economic reform, Britain would be in the state that Europe finds itself in now. My community lost 75% of its employment under Thatcher - 75%!. Did we carp on about it, hell no. We retrained, took the pain & moved on - something you & your EU fantasy will never have the strength to go through which is why it seeks enlargement - something you blame Britain for with spurrrrrrious arguments, to say the least.

The Iron Lady gave my parents the opportunity to own property, to own shares, to take control of their pensions & taught everyone who was willing to try to be self sufficient & not rely on the State for anything.

Thats a pretty good legacy for any politician - ending the welfare depndency that has mysteriously re-appeared under New Labour.

Inspite of New Labours best efforts, we still have a world beating economy - for the moment.

This is only possible because of Thatchers reforms - funny how New Labour did not repeal all the Legislation she bought in to make the economy strong.

Back to you....

Funny how when ever anyone chinks your wafer thin armour, you throw a euro hissy fit & state you have no time for _________ (add Paolo's insult of the day).

Unlike me, you are very unsure of your beliefs & of course your re re re interpretation of history - even about England, a country I know lots about, you claim to know better.

I have no problem with you calling me names, I just wish you had the substance to back it up with other than hissy fits.

Please, put your toys on elastic string so you can throw them out of your pram again & again & again....

Again, I feel fully justified in calling you an asshole, so I will - asshole.

Albion: you want an answer? You shall have it. But then I want you to stop mentioning me, as you have my word of honour I shall no more mention you than if you were a hole in Osama's socks. You have not demonstrated taht you have the slightest idea of what religion even means, in spite of your patheti cliches about letting in light on the darkness of my dogma and the rest of it. You have not demonstrated that you are capable fo argument. What you have demonstrated is 1) that you have plenty of time (which I do not, since every grudged second I waste answering you is taken from working time) and, 2), that you are a prime case of Stockholm Syndrome. Meg Thug destroys your community, so you brag about it. We were so manly, you see, all getting on our bikes and finding so many new McJob opportunities. I did not believe that you could actually come up with anything that would deepen my contempt of you, but congratulations, you managed it. A victim who is proud of being victimized and thanks his victimizer. As for your presumed opposition to Fascism, please. If you really disliked Fascists, you would smash every mirror your face ever showed in.

Paolo,

And perhaps you ought to treat those of us who know what Thugcherism is really like ...with less pathetic contempt.

"Those of us who know"? Wow!!!

Please refer me to your published essays, dissertations and expositions, so I may find out what makes you think you "know". Until know I have only your word for it.

Do you really think that that miserable drivel you are pushing in that space will make anyone suspect you are one of those "who know"?
Well, Albion above demolished your hopes so completely that there is no need for me to do so.

Don't be ridiculous, Paolo.
Do something about your delusion of grandeur first and I promise to start taking you more seriously.

And no, I don't regard you with "pathetic contempt". But since you are bringing it up yourself one can not avoid thinking that your problem is that, deep inside, you suspect everyone of treating you with contempt. Well, you must have your reasons - and I respect it.

Anyway, back to the subject, was he (De Gaulle)the "last great man of europe" or not?
That was the subject of my original posting. Remember?

Paolo

Coherent as ever. No answers, just more name calling, as ever.

LOVFLI

Bragging victim? Nah, willing accomplice in the necessary market & labour reforms my country went through, & indeed Europe will have to face...& I am doing very, very, very nicely out of it indeed, thank you for asking....

It is the Democratic-type left, in America, that now has all the massed ranks of billionaires - Gates, Turner, Buffett, Soros, Theresa Heinz. The interest of such people in poverty relief programs has to do not with helping the poor, but with gaining control over them; as you can see from their rabid reaction to any program they cannot control - e.g. faith-based ones. In this, but in little else, they are like the rabid Communists of long ago, who hated every trades union or popular movement - Catholic, Socialist, Anarchist - that they could not control.

All the same, we suffer from the same problem: the coalescing of political elites into one gloppy mass that negates real political struggle and treats the people as a reservoir of votes to be periodically tapped to confirm their legitimacy. The election of GW Bush to his second term was nothing short of an insurrection, in which tens of millions of Americans first registered and voted to tell the elite that they were neither legitimated nor supported; and the result was that Bush has done nothing but show the most pathetic hankering to become acceptable to the elite - which will, however, never accept him, because it cannot swallow the insult of having been trashed at the polls.

Posted by: Paolo at October 5, 2005 02:14 AM

Paolo:

Boy, did you post a mouthful there. You just missed out the not-so-minor supporting role the US media elites tried to play vis a vis the last US elections. And while there is a nominal Democratic left, they are not democratically-minded. Some democratically-minded Democrats ended up voting for Bush.

As for the whole left/right debate, I find myself in freddie's ranks. I find it hard to get too excited about casting a ballot, because it seems to me that politicians, whatever their stripe, only say what they think we want to hear, however unlikely the promise, and when they fail to deliver, we end up being bitterly disappointed. Sometimes they end up doing the right thing, if for the wrong reason, and don't botch it up too badly; sometimes they do the wrong thing with the best of intentions. The saddest thing is that the former is the best we can realistically hope for.

Thomas H.: I refer you to what I said to your colleague in delusion, Albion. As it happens, under my real name I am a historian and publicist with several publications to my credit. I do not give it to you because I have no desire to have anything further to do with your likes (apart from a slight disinclination to have my name bandied about where our Muslim brothers could find and decide that my throat would look better with a knife in it), so, please, you too, stop wasting my time. And if you think that "publications and articles" are more authoritative than the experience of those who really enjoyed the odious rule of the Rust Lady, you deserve to enjoy something equally loathsome. Now please leave me alone, I have things to do that actually pay money.

Watrdragon - quite. The links of complicity and mutual backscratching between the media and the political elite cry, in the old Christian and Jewish expression, to Heaven for revenge. When one finds the New Jerk Dimes supporting the monstrous Supreme Court decision that allows any public whatever to confiscate any property they want, and then you find out that thanks to a similar decision the New Jerks acquired their nice new building from a city government scam, you wonder how long the patience of God and men will last. Corruption is no longer hidden these days; it walks in the open and brags of itself.

Paolo,

What Thatcher was and what Thatcher did is not only appreciated by Albion and millions of other Brits, but also people like Milton Friedman, for example, who lauded her reforms more than once.

Now, Milton Friedman happens to be a Nobel Prize winner while you are a quarrelsome, uncivil, pompous scribbler forever irrreconciled with your thunderous mediocrity.

So again, as long as you are unable to present credentials more convincing than your silly outbursts here, you will keep on being dismissed as a loud, conceited and angry dilettante.

Thomas.H

Exceptionally well put Sir.

This thread has got funnier & funnier, thanks to Paolo.

& now he is an historian & publicist? - you could not make it up. Thats the Earl Grey with the Kendal Mintcake, that is for sure. The rib of mine he broke yesterday when I was laughing sooo hard is really giving me jip now.

I think my chances of seeing Osama Bin Laden at my local Pork Butchers are more realistic than our dear, uptight, anally retentive friend Paolo being an historian - or a publicist.

History of what, exactly, I wonder?

Publicist of what, exactly, I wonder?

Like De Gaulle crossing the Channel to seek safety & sanctuary & soldiers & a career in England, casting his gaze back to France & calling the Germans rude names, Paolo, models his net scribblings here on his hero - De Gaulle, the last "Great Leader In Europe" & only has contempt for anyone who dare question his insults, attacks, moral indignation & of course his crap re re re interpretations of England's & Great Britains history.

He'll be moaning next about the Poll Tax.

Well, it looks like our worst fears are about to become reality. Check this out:
Enjoy freedom of speech while you still have it, folks. Congress wants to take it away from you:
On Sept. 14, the US House of Representatives passed, 223-199, the ominous federal 'anti-hate' bill, the Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2005. It was inserted as AMDT.2662 into the Children's Safety Act. If approved unaltered by the senate judiciary, this legislation is ready for the President to sign into law. Go to the link and read the whole thing. It will make you want to cry.

http://www.nationalreview.com/derbyshire/derbyshire200509300805.asp

It is rather sad to be the cause of stupidity in others. I already said that I refuse to answer further two individuals who bedevil this site, but they insist on finding insults to throw at me. Well, I would say it defines them.

Susanp: if hate speech becomes a crime, what will happen to Thomas H. and Albion?

Thomas H., Albion and Paolo...please stop the mutual attacks!

C'mon guys it doesn't accomplish anything.

And as for who's to blame the most for our present situation? It's the fault, in equal measure, of both The Left and The Right.

Both have taken the public for a ride and both are equally rancid.

And Paolo De Gaulle wasn't the last great European leader.

He came here (Canada) in 1967, made a speech obliquely urging Franch Canada to leave confederation, and then high-tailed it back to France when he discovered that many of French Canada's elite disagreed with his opinions.

On his best days he was merely flakey.

Albion,

I think my chances of seeing Osama Bin Laden at my local Pork Butchers are more realistic than our dear, uptight, anally retentive friend Paolo being an historian - or a publicist.

This time it was me who nearly broke a rib laughing.

This thread has got funnier & funnier, thanks to Paolo.

Paolo, - the (probably) last little European devotee of the last great European leader. Thank God for Paolo for offering us so many reasons for laughter and hilarity in that ill boding time.
Bless you Paolo.

Susanp: if hate speech becomes a crime, what will happen to Thomas H. and Albion?

It all depends who will define what constitutes hate crime. If Paulo had his way he would rule that having a bit of innocent fun with him represents hate crime. Hopefully it wil not be him to decide. Still, one never knows.

Seriously Paulo. Please believe me I really don't hate you - why should I?
You, again, are projecting your own feelings.

Please relax.
And do get laid now and then. Your postings here and, I am sure, your publications on history or any other subjects you claim mastery of will improve dramatically from day to day.

Best wishes,

T. H.

Outbreak of peace, warm feelings to everyone, that sort of thing.

In future I will only respond to you, Paolo, if you ever again call me, falsely, a racist or a fascist.

I am not. I am as ever, an English Democrat who's first & only real issue in politics before the events of 7/7 was with an English Parliament for the English People.

No race or religion agenda's in sight.

John Palubiski - thanks & respect for calling time.

Best regards to all

Albion

albion - don't get worked up over Palo - he has a lot of good points to make, but he is also a Catholic Zealot. He thinks that Martin Luther and other reformers were wrong. In other words its OK for the Pope to charge money for your sins, and not allow the masses to have access to their holy book.

Bit like Islam really....

Palo - should be Paolo, no disrespect intended.

Susanp: if hate speech becomes a crime, what will happen to Thomas H. and Albion?

Posted by: Paolo at October 5, 2005 02:24 PM

LOL, y'all aren't dragging me into this debate!
But to answer your question, I don't think the pompous members of Congress can impose their unconstitutional edicts on the internet. Unless the filthy bastards in the U.N. somehow manage to get their hands on OUR internet, which they have been trying to do for years, it will remain the last bastion of free (hate) speech.

I can barely keep up with American politics so I'm not qualified to expound on who did the most damage to Britain, but I would have to speculate that Tony Blair has done his fair share. He has been in power for quite a while and has some rather strange (to me) convictions. I recall listening to one of his eloquent speeches on C-Span in which he lambasted Conservatism with great emotion; he sounded like a typical utopian nihilist. He seems to despise tradition, established institutions, and everything that defined Britain prior to 1990 or thereabouts. Tony Blair is much like Bill Clinton; you can't help but like him. But he strikes me as a minatory iconoclast at times, far too hung up on "modernizing" every nook and cranny of the U.K. I have to wonder what his definition of "modernizing" is. Of course, I could be way off base; American and British politics are very different and liberalism is much more prevalent there than here.

I think that conspiracy theory fever must be contagious and I caught it from a muslim. Every time I turn around I see another expose of George Bush's complicity in the U.N. agenda, and none of these treacherous acts are mentioned in the mainstream media. I think GWB might well be the most duplicitous, deceitful, cunning poseur to ever occupy the White House. As if Islam and its rabid jihadists aren't enough to worry about, it looks like our president is selling us out across the board.