Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald discusses a recent lecture about Christianity and Islam at Stanford, sponsored by the Islamic Society of Stanford University and the Muslim Students Awareness Network:
"Both Muslims and Christians 'believe in Jesus as the Messiah and accept that he was born of a virgin, that he never sinned,' he said. 'There is more in common than there are differences between us.'" — from this article about a lecture last Saturday by Hisham Mahmoud, a doctoral candidate of Islamic Studies at UCLA, on “Jesus in Islam: The Gospel of Jesus According to Prophet Muhammad”Perhaps Hisham Mahmoud’s assertion that Christians and Muslims have “more in common” than they have differences is not quite enough to allay our fears, our suspicions, and above all, our knowledge. Certainly, as a kind of gloss on Mahmoud’s homily, one would like to hear from all those Christians who have been on the receiving end of Muslim sharing-and-caring: Copts from Egypt, Maronites from Lebanon, and Indonesian and Pakistani Christians, in addition to ex-Muslims in the West who have become Christians, or if they have not, at least can testify as to what attitudes toward Christians (and other Infidels) are encouraged by the texts of Qur’an, hadith, and sira. It would be fascinating to engage Mr. Mahmoud in live debate which would contain both the testimony of such Christians and that of Christians tortured and imprisoned for their belief in Saudi Arabia, a country whose inhabitants apparently do not share Mr. Mahmoud’s belief that Islam and Christianity “more in common than there are differences between us.” But what do those imams all over Arabia know about Islam, when Mr. Mahmoud knows so much more, and is quick to tell us all about it?
While the naïve remain, their numbers are diminishing. Some simply cannot reconcile the evidence of their senses with the taqiyya and tu-quoque offered up by Muslim spokesmen (CAIR may be the most egregious, given the charges made, and proven, against many of its officers, but it is just the tip of the taqiyya iceberg). Of course, it is possible to find, here and there, bits and pieces of Jewish and Christian lore in the Qur’an. That, after all, is what the Qur’an is: an overlay or mixture of passages, usually misunderstood or distorted from their original sources, taken from the Jewish and Christian holy books and mixed with pagan Arab lore from the time of the Jahiliyya – that is, the Ignorance that prevailed before Islam arrived to clear everything up. Of course we all know that Jesus and Moses and a few thousand others were prophets; Islam took over, lock stock and barrel, all sorts of things from the prior monotheisms, appropriated them, and distorted them into an Islamic version. For example, as Mahmoud emphasizes, Jesus was a prophet but not the Son of God, and did not die on the Cross; the perfidious Jews, however, even though they did not kill Jesus, thought they did and boasted about it (see Qur’an 4:157), and besides, they had a different candidate for the Son of God, one “Uzair” or “Ezra” (Qur’an 9:30), although no real Jews have ever made such a claim about Ezra or anyone else.
These orthodox Muslim and Qur’anic versions of Judaism and Christianity are hardly recognizable to either Jews or Christians. Islam is irreconcilably hostile to both, and never more so than in Sura 9, the very last of the Suras to be written. Yet Mahmoud does not seem to have mentioned the curse of Allah on Jews and Christians (9:30 again) or other inconvenient matters. Not to worry. Just remember his theme: Christians and Muslims have “more in common than there are differences between us.”Yet those differences are real. Traditional Islam denounces Christianity as “shirk,” (polytheistic, because of the Trinity and divinity attributed to Christ). It is a belief-system that for 1350 years has been persecuting Christians and other non-Muslims (see The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam by Bat Ye’or). It mandates for them the status of dhimmitude: humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity, in which all the non-Muslim’s rights derived from whatever the Muslims wished to offer, and from nothing else. Dhimmitude was imposed on Christians as it was on Jews, and then, in a different way, first to Zoroastrians and then to Buddhists and Hindus (the latter only because there were too many to kill, and besides, allowing them to live and to finance the Muslim state through their “Jizya” made economic sense).
The numbers of unwary Infidels diminish every day. But there are still many who want to believe that there is nothing wrong with Islam, a religion of “tolerance” and “peace.” Such people come away from talks like Mahmoud’s reassured and hopeful. But less credulous individuals should consult not only the likes of Mahmoud. Let them seek a comment from a Copt or a Maronite, or some other Christian who has been on the receiving end of Islam’s “respect” for Christianity. Someone who knew Bishop John Joseph in Pakistan, or who has seen his church attacked or burned down (in the Balkans, in Pakistan, in Egypt, in Indonesia, in the Sudan, in Nigeria).
Why are talks such as Mahmoud’s so readily given, and eagerly received, in our nation’s universities? One principal reason is that over the past 30 years many posts in universities have been systematically created and funded by Arab interests. Arab money funds individual chairs: the King Abdul Aziz II Chair, the “Guardian of the Two Noble Sanctuaries” Chair, the Edward Said Chair, as well as whole “centers” such as Esposito’s “Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding” and the Georgetown Center for Contemporary Arab Studies. This is all about vast financial resources deployed, carefully and with malice aforethought, by the Saudis, the Kuwaits, the U.A.E. And as any study of MESA (Mesa Nostra) would show, there has been over the past three decades an inexorable takeover or infiltration of many university departments. One thinks of Columbia’s Middle Eastern and Asian Languages and Cultures -- a situation beyond parody, and beyond belief -- made even more horrific by the crude and transparent attempt to limit scrutiny of the MEALAC department only to the anti-Israel antics of some of its faculty, and not to the fact that the main subject, Islam, including the early history of the Qur’an, a history of Jihad-conquest, and a history of dhimmitude or dhimmitude studies, is simply not even mentioned, much less taught, as part of the standard curriculum. The main function of such departments seems to be to misstate or omit the role of Islam, the belief-system that animates and explains so much of the present behavior and past history of those who live in what are now, but were not always, the countries of dar al-Islam.
At no other time have the citizens of an entire civilization been called upon to educate themselves, since those whose duty it is to instruct them are afraid of telling the truth about Islam and indeed are falling all over themselves misinforming us about its nature. This is done out of fear, out of denial, out of stupidity, out of all sorts of motives except that of recognizing, confronting, and articulating an unpalatable truth -- one that implies a struggle without an end-point, that will require measures to be undertaken that, in the West, many had not thought appropriate even to contemplate.
And because the apologists for Islam have been honing their skills in taqiyya and kitman, and have such well-financed operations, and are not inhibited by any scruples in their campaign to spread Islam and to remove all barriers to its spread within the Bilad al-kufr, a further requirement of Infidels is not only that they learn about Islam, but that they also familiarize themselves with the repertory of rhetorical and other tricks used by Islamic apologists: what are the passages that keep being quoted, what are the appeals that keep being made to win over or disarm Christian (or Jewish) critics, what are the lines of attack, the lines of defense? For there are a small number of these, endlessly repeated.
Mahmoud retails some of the most common. The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades), The Legacy of Jihad, Islam and Dhimmitude, and a host of others will help immunize one against the hordes of Hisham Mahmouds. On the Internet, at www.usc.edu, one can find several different translations side-by-side of the Qur'an. The hadith of Bukhari, Muslim, and others are available at the same site. Non-hagiographical works on Muhammad are also easily obtained, including the recently-reprinted one-volume biography by Sir William Muir ($50 at Kessinger Reprints), or the short biographies by Tor Andrae and Arthur Jeffery. Books by Margoliouth on early Islam, and Schacht on Muslim law, have recently been reprinted. Peroncel-Hugoz, a French journalist, wrote The Raft of Muhammad, which deserves to be read. Though out-of-print it can be obtained online.
Armed with information, you can in turn better inform others. You may influence one, or five, or ten people. Every new addition to the ranks of the informed is important. The civilization they help save may be their own.
Churchill called Islam Christianity's opposite creed. It is exactly that.
Hisham Mahmoud is talking through his hat! There is a colossal difference between Christianity and Islam. Islam turns on its head almost everything important to a Christian!
Christianity is summed up succinctly in the following Biblical quotation:
Does this sound like a description of Islam to you?Excellent Hugh...thank you for posting this.
"While the naïve remain, their numbers are diminishing."
How true.
Mark:
If you replace G-d with "Allah" and neighbor with "ummah" you'll find something in the Koran just like it.
You have to dig deeper than that if you intend to hold your own against a Mohammedan!
Hisham Mahmoud is talking through his hat! There is a colossal difference between Christianity and Islam. Islam turns on its head almost everything important to a Christian!
Posted by Mark
Many of Islam's apologists say that "Biblical violence" is just as prevalent as Qur'anic violence, despite the rejection of violence in the New Testament. They ignore the fact that the concept of jihad is found only in Islam, which makes it uniquely, immutably, and infinitely violent. They also ignore Islam's penalty for apostasy, clearly explicated in the Qur'an. No other faith calls for the death of apostates, but Islam does.
Similarities between Islam and Christianity?! There are none! But there are many liars like Mahmoud who prey on the ignorance of well-meaning, tolerant people whose minds cannot conceive that a religion with over a billion followers is an evil death cult.
The fight against Islam cannot be won without rejecting claims of moral equivalence between Christianity and Islam. It's not a matter of "my religion is better than yours." The only way to fully expose the evil of Islam is by proving that it is the antithesis of Christianity. Even those who detest Christianity are eager to seize upon the putative similarities between the two religions, which they use to defend Islam and condemn Christianity! Some even argue that since Christianity has a history of violence and injustice, Islam is merely evolving as Christianity did. They don't take into account that Islam's entire 1400 year history has been one of unprecedented barbarity and that its doctrine is immutable, unreformable.
Sheik Yer'mami:
I am sorry but I have to disagree with you on this one. I don't have to "dig deeper" at all! That statement IS the encapsulation of Christianity. And that's a fact!
One cannot replace the word God with Allah simply because God and Allah are not the same! Were God and Allah to be the same, then God Himself would have to be schizophrenic! Read the New Testament and read then read the Qur'an, compare them, and then see just how schizophrenic God would have to be! The New testament is the Good News. One could hardly say that the Qur'an is a book of 'good news', with all its doom and gloom and warnings of hell-fire, death to infidels, and so on and so forth.
Moreover, one cannot replace the word neighbour with the word ummah because neighbour is universal and inclusive, whereas ummah is specific (relating to fellow Muslims only) and exclusive.
"I have held my own" with Muslims for more than twenty years. Fear not!
Susanp: Excellent post!
Maybe we could, in some places replace the word "Yaweh" with "Allah" but theres no way that Mohammed could ever be compared with Jesus. Jesus never killed anyone, much less thousands; and Jesus never had a wife, much less dozens; and Jesus never kept a sex slave or concubine, much less dozens; and Jesus never said to kill the unbelievers.
...Copts from Egypt, Maronites from Lebanon, and Indonesian and Pakistani Christians, in addition to ex-Muslims in the West who have become Christians...
And how about those Christians being enslaved, ethnically cleansed, genocided, etc. in Sudan? And they're not exactly faring so well these days in Iraq (thank you Dick Cheney.)
AND! don't forget the idiot, dhimmi, Jew-hating "Christians" in the "palestinian" territories who thought that if the lied and whined about Israel enough they would be afforded special "protected" status... hah. That lasted in Bethlehem about as long as Pakistan's vow to honor the Treaty of Partition. Now the idiot biblethumpers are clamouring to get into Israel, the "Apartheid" nation they soooo depised.
*********************************************
And where is the Pope on the suffering of all these Christians? Laughing all the way to the bank, Saudi check in hand. Just like Precious Leader.
MUSLIM JESUS VS. BIBLICAL JESUS
Twenty Two Scriptural Reasons Why They Are Not the Same Jesus
http://www.bereanbeacon.org/Muslim_Jesus_vs_Biblical_Jesus.html
Pope Benedict has been clear about what he makes of Islam. He may not now express himself quite as forthrightly as he did when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, but no sane person would believe he has a "Saudi check in hand." Ne po tu adresu. The wrong address. Barking up the wrong beech or birch. Nothing will come of nothing. Try again.
allah vs. the God of the Bible
http://www.studytoanswer.net/islam_myths.html
Muslims reverence Jesus?
http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch4.html
This is just a bunch of taqiya spoken by a soldier of Islam who fights to deceive the minds of infidels in Dar-al-Harb.
Hugh: "He [Pope Benedict] may not now express himself quite as forthrightly as he did when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, but no sane person would believe he has a "Saudi check in hand.""
King: The Pope has other important monetary things to worry about, like paying the legal claims for the thousands of children molested by Catholic preists over decades. To "make things right" the Catholic church simply moved the guilty preists around while they diddled more children. Yep, the Catholic church is a global standard of ethics and religious standard!
SusanP: "It's not a matter of "my religion is better than yours. "The only way to fully expose the evil of Islam is by proving that it is the antithesis of Christianity"
King: Hmmm. Sure sounds like "my religion is better than yours!"
SusanP: "Some even argue that since Christianity has a history of violence and injustice, Islam is merely evolving as Christianity did."
King: Christianity did indeed spread violently and in some cases, entire groups were either slaughtered en masse or driven into hiding, as happened in South and Central America and Mexico. Much of the gold stolen from the Aztec and Incan nations was shipped back to Europe and smelted into Christian momuments, gold leaf and other icons. The spread of Christianity was driven, in part, my the search for riches and trade routes in the names of their country or King.
http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/slenchek/slaztec1.html
Africa was dissected by Christian European settlers, the effects of which are still obvious to this day.
http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/lm6/activityfive.htm
India had its time with violence and Christianity.
"In the early part of Portuguese rule, the Colonialists are also recorded to have forcibly converted temples into churches. As per local traditions in the villages around the Basilica of St. Francis Xavier near Panjim in Goa, There originally existed a Shiva temple on the site of the Basilica which was demolished by the colonial authorities to put up the Basilica"
http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/christianity.html
Ignoring any or all of this while arguing that Islam is the "antithesis of Christianity" is the pinnacle of hypocrisy as well as intellectual dishonesty. Simply because your religon's violent past happened in lands far away, to people vastly different from you does not make it any less signifcant.
Christianity have nothing in common with Islam. Islam is the antithesis of Christianity. Christianity was not started my a depraved, pedophelic moron who raped and savaged the countryside. I wonder what source Hisham Mahmoud got his facts. Islam is a cult created by a psychopath. The so called "prophet" Muhammed, was a maniac with an uncontrollable lust for women and young girls. 50+ man who already have numerous wives, then takes fancy to a 6-year old child, marries her, and have sex with her at age nine? In modern times, he'd be guilty of rape. He'd be a convicted pedophile. Yet, over the centuries, people like Hisham Mahmoud allow themselves to be conned by this man! Are you idiots or what? NO! there is definitely no common ground between Christianity and Islam
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus never killed anyone or conquered any territory. Christianity has no dhimmitude, jizya, or jihad.
Islam and Christianity are both considered religions. That's about it.
For the discussion of allah being the word for God in arabic, it may be the same word but it is not the same being.
I can call a weed a rose, but that doesn't make the weed a rose. (Apologies to William Shakespeare)
Islam has accepted the "god of this world", the one who would usurp the Throne of the True God. We were warned of this from the beginning. Compare the aims of the islamic "god", then look at what the God of the Bible asks of us.
Bukhari:V4B52N196 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.”’”
Qur’an 47:4 “So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”
Jesus said to:
"Love your neighbor as yourself"
There is a difference
Please don't dig into the Apocrypha (Infancy Gospel of Thomas) and dig out the story of the young Jesus and compare it to Mohammed's bloody wars of conquest. That would be stupid.
Beagle: "Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus never killed anyone or conquered any territory."
King: How much land and forceful conversion happened in him name, though?
Beagle: "Islam and Christianity are both considered religions. That's about it."
King. True. "How sad it is that we have enough religions to fight over, but not enough 'religion' to live in peace."
"Why are talks such as Mahmoud’s so readily given, and eagerly received, in our nation’s universities? One principal reason is that over the past 30 years many posts in universities have been systematically created and funded by Arab interests. Arab money funds individual chairs..."
That may be one principal reason, but it's not the most important reason. There has had to be a receptivity to this "malice aforethought" of Muslims seeking influence over Western Academe.
Imagine if, not Muslims had been seeking ideological influence in Academe with money, but rather right-wing Christian Evangelicals: there would not be any receptivity among Academic faculty and administrators.
No, the Muslim influence-peddlers are selling something our Leftists are already pre-disposed to find pleasing: anti-Western, pro-Third World, pro-"oppressed" former victims of Western Imperialism & present victims of evil Amerika & evil Zionism, pro-exotic Noble Savage exemplifying interesting ethnic religious diversity, etc. etc. ad nauseam.
Dr. Pepper: "No, the Muslim influence-peddlers are selling something our Leftists are already pre-disposed to find pleasing: anti-Western, pro-Third World, pro-"oppressed" former victims of Western Imperialism....
King: While you try to use this as an imputation against those who actually see their nose despite their face, I think many "Leftists" feel quite proud of their balanced, often controverisal views. Sorry you find human rights issues in the third world as well as the rights of those whom the West has shit upon as a less noble cause than whining about Islam.
Yep, the neo-con rot has seeped into YOUR soul already....
"There is more in common than there are differences between us" - aye right - more crap from the shite factory
btw who was it who lifted Jesus up from the cross, replaced him with someone else and made it seem like he'd been crucified?
none other than the big conman in the sky, allah - deceiving all us poor christians in that way i mean, whats he like?
nope we cant blame him cos he dont exist
blame epileptic fit boy mahomet instead (apologies to all epileptics, unless youre issuing forth more enlightenment from allah)
btw carolyn, thanks for the links - looks like theyll be most useful
Beagle: "Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus never killed anyone or conquered any territory."
King: How much land and forceful conversion happened in him name, though?
When discussing with a Christian, one can argue that the land grabbing and killing are antithetical to the ethics espoused by Jesus, even if done "in his name". "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is representative of his preaching.
When discussing with a Mohammadan, the behavior of
Mohammad as described in their canonical texts makes John Gotti look like a piker. Assasinations blessed,
looting, piracy, rape, pedophilia, mass murder, etc.
Quite a rap sheet! And his followers just keep it coming to this day.
From Hugh's article: For example, as Mahmoud emphasizes, Jesus was a prophet but not the Son of God, and did not die on the Cross.
The big lie:"There is no Illah but Allah, and Mohammad is his messenger".
The reason that muslims try so hard to discredit Jesus as the 'Son of God', or 'God incarnate', is because if Jesus is God, Allah is not.
Allah says he has no sons, yet YHVH said he had one and was proud of him. This is either two different Gods or the one God is confused.
I think it's clear that Mohammad obtained lots of scriptural information from Jews and Christians, and he and his cohorts twisted it, and incorporated and meshed it into much of the Quran. The lie consists of putting the 'name' Allah in a superior position to the "word" God. "In the beginning there was the WORD..."
There is no 'Illah but Allah' should be, there is no 'Allah but Illah'. The WORDS Illah and God are titles, not names. God has no name. Only 'things' have names, God is not a 'thing', but Allah (A name) is. 'Things' cannot go before God. "Things' are material. They live in the world of matter where all evil happens. This is the abode of Allah, the Lord of Matter.
Mohammad reversed the image of God as spiritual into the image of gross materialism. This is reflected in Mohammads gathering people and things as possessions and Allahs pronouncement that 'loot is good'. Loot is still good, and the Sons of the Lord of Matter, are still after it...
The quintessential difference between Islam and other religions is the Sunnah.
It's not so important that Mohammed was one of the most awful humans ever to have lived. What's important is that for several minutes five times daily, and for hours every Friday, Moslems command themselves to emulate the behavior of one of the most awful humans ever!
And what does obeying such a command say about those who do?
Sometimes I secretly wonder whether Mohammed wasn't just a manipulative bullshit artist who was making up this Koran thing as he went along, for sex, glory, and profit.
Beagle: "Islam and Christianity are both considered religions. That's about it."
King. True. "How sad it is that we have enough religions to fight over, but not enough 'religion' to live in peace."
Posted by: KingTolerance
Hey, talk to your friends KT, they are the ones waging jihad.
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You are welcome freddie.
'As per local traditions in the villages around the Basilica of St. Francis Xavier near Panjim in Goa, There originally existed a Shiva temple on the site of the Basilica which was demolished by the colonial authorities to put up the Basilica" ~ kt
How does an event centuries old have anything to do with what muslims are doing around the world, Today, Every Day? You can't seem to answer that.
Temple of Shiva destroyed by muslims:
http://www.hinduunity.org/articles/ramjanam/somnathnayodhya.html
http://www.dalhousie.net/hinduism.htm
http://www.hindunet.org/alt_hindu/1995_Mar_2/msg00038.html
Carolyn2: "Hey, talk to your friends KT, they are the ones waging jihad."
King: Nobody I know is waging or supporting jihad, yet, I know many Muslims. Isn't that odd? Now, your little "Love your neighbor as thyself" seems to be reduced to mere words as you pow-wow here with people who call for far worse than simply seeing some Muslims modernize.
Moreover, as you post your lillte Koran quote you also turn a complete blind eye to such things as:
“Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21"
“He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7"
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9
Luke 12:47 Jesus okays beating slaves
"Read it all"
Gary: "How does an event centuries old have anything to do with what muslims are doing around the world, Today, Every Day? You can't seem to answer that."
King: And you cannot seem to assimilate that Christianity has the same blood on its history and some non-Christians are still struck by it, yet, you sit here and whine about what SOME Muslims are doing today. History matters, both the distant and not so distant. Things have happened, deals made, people oppressed, governments corrupted, clerics emboldened. You also cannot/will not assimilate the reasons why SOME of these Muslims are behaving in such Draconian ways, preferring to simply blame religion.
I do not suspect you are a very good chess player.
Hisham Mahmoud is, of course, conducting da'wa and apparently getting credit for it toward a Ph.D. at UCLA. In the article he not only makes the moronic statements above about the 'closeness' of Islam and Christiantity, he goes on to point out the 'differences'; these are, of course, strategically selected contrasts that make Christianity look foolish and Islam rational and sane: Christ could not die for other people's sins (how could he?), each person is accountable individually (makes sense); the Trinity is impossible, Allah is one (Unitarianism. Invented by Mohammad, you know...); Jesus is a 'Messaih', whatever that means, but not 'the son of God (of course, not, and that's an original insight as well. Or did Hisham let everyone know about Gnosticism?).
It appears that Islam and Christianity are morally on the same ground and just stand in need of a few abstract theological adjustments; indeed, Islam is just fine-tuned Gnosticim, you know. One step away from complete consistency, a little line in the sand.
Lies. Blatant lies, that are probably listed in some Da'wa documentation somewhere for how to present Islam to Christians.
Setting aside some of the more obvious issues, like Mohammad's beheading of 700 Jewish prisoners, bodies dropping in ditches reminiscent of SS machine gun crews in the Ukraine (before the Death Camps were put to full use), the enslavement of women and children, the butchering of supposed convicts, and the glorification of dying on the battlefield. For instance,
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 53:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
"The Prophet said, "Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause)."
And let's not talk about what Jihad and glorification of martyrdom, that is Islamic martyrdom, dying on the battlefield, not letting down your guard to sacrifice yourself for others (you know, what Jesus presumably did), might have to do with New York, Washington, Iraq, Moscow, Beslan, Bali, Morocco, Madrid, and a hundred other places.
No, let's set all this small talk aside and talk about Mary, shall we, the Virgin. According the Qur'an she conceived miraculously, a virgin, and then gave birth by herself in the desert. Just the sort of thing a pregnant virgin would do. Don't you think? No najis (unclean) blood to worry about. Nobody to see anything improper. The desert, not with people, not with her husband, that's where a virgin and her baby belong.
The emphasis of the Qur'an is on her purity, her viginity, her obedience. These traits of Mary have been stressed in Catholic and Christian traditions as well, but these are not the traits that animate Marian traditions in the Catholic Church. Mary as mother of humanity, as a caregiver, as an intercessor for her children; these ideas, that appeal to very primitive instincts in people generally and are expressed in certain pagan traditions as well that worship 'mothers' of different sorts, are completely denied in the Qur'an; the male voice of the Qur'an, the stern, but apparently compassionate Allah, who will only beat you if you are a bad girl, or boy, but especially if you are a girl, denies Mary the space to be a mother; she is instead the bleseed virgin in the desert, the obedient woman, out of sight, out of hair, doing her job. Just what a woman should be.
And for that reason, we are led to believe, Mary never deserved a beating, a la Sura 4, although there is no indication that she should have been allowed to talk back to her husband, or receive an equal share in of her family's inheritance.
Tough luck, even if you are a virgin mother who had to go to the trouble of having a kid alone in the desert.
Well, I could go on, but I couldn't help setting the record straight.
Islam like Christianity. Jeez...I mean 'not'.
Matthew 10 has a little more to it than you quoted, KT.
11"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. 12As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
17"Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Nice, Carolyn! You think you've exculpated the verse.
"Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues."
King: Now who, pray tell, goes to synagogues? Jews perhaps? OK, so we should be on our guard against Jews for they will flog us in their synagogues.
See? Such rubbish is up for all sorts of interpretation, exculpation and admiration. Same thing with the Koran, same thing with Islam.
Folks...Don't feed the trolls!
KT, you read but do not comprehend. The point Jesus is making is that by believing and following him, you will be persecuted. Even your own family members will turn you in (sounds like Islam there).
Matthew 15:4-7: Let's see, Jesus is chastising them for altering the law handed down by God. Now, you then have to ignore the rest of biblical teaching that Christians are no longer under the law, but saved by grace.
Luke 12:47: Wow, culturally at that time slaves were beaten. The story is a parabel about being a faithful and unfaithful servant. It isn't about beating slaves, but about how a faithful servant is rewarded and an unfaithful one punished.
You need to try again KT. You read the context of the Koran and you will find things only get worse. The two religions are night and day. Saying that you can read anything into any religion is a lazy person's way of arguing.
epg, the problem is that KT is using the same pathetic arguments used by many Muslims. Rebutting them is important for lurkers.
KT,
You are mistaken.
Matthew:
17"Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
***Jesus obviously was teaching about how non-believers will respond to those who believe in Him. This is happening right now, as Jesus said it would, in Muslim countries; Muslims become Christian and their Muslim family members try to kill and and have them put to death....Note the next sentence: All men will hate you because of Me. It has happened throughout history after Jesus resurrection to this day: people would convert to Christianity and non-Christian family members would betray them and have them killed. Not ALL non-believers but many many cases.
Matthew 15:
1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[a] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[b] 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[c]' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[d]"
****Jesus is pointing out how the Pharisees had created traditions separate from the laws of God as given by Moses that were contrary to the actual law. The point is...if God's law goes as far as even requiring mere words to be honoring to parents...how is it that the Pharisees made up a code of traditions that gave people a "loophole" to not provide support for their parents which is also considered part of the honor law (Isaiah 58:7--talking about what God requires: Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe him,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? )
Mark 7 is the same story told by a different observer with the same point...how people have made up their own traditions which they made to supercede the law for their own personal advantage:
5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"
6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[b] 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,'[d] and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[e] 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
***Obviously in neither passage was Jesus criticizing them for not killing their children but rather the subject was the traditions of man vs. the laws of God.
In Luke 12 Jesus did not okay beating slaves. This passage is a parable: the master is Jesus who has returned to the Father giving his servants (Christians in leadership positions) instructions to use His resources to care for His other servants (Christians). The unwise servant (Christian leader) in this story does not take care of the Christians under his care but rather abuses them for his own gain and uses his Master's resources for his own gain. Jesus implies that it will be a long period until He returns to call His servants (Christian leaders) to account and that it will be at a time when the wise and unwise servants don't know (as in no one knows when they will die and God will call them to account...and know one knows when Jesus will return to judge the world). The Master, being Jesus, will punish His servants who do not take care of the resources and people put in the charge of the servants (who could be church pastors, fathers over their families, mothers over their children, teachers over their students).
Luke 12:
35"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. 38It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night. 39But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."
41Peter asked, "Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?"
42The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
That is what these passages mean, KT, not what you said.
Shaughn,
The quintessential difference between Islam and other religions is the Sunnah.
Not really.
The quintessential difference between Islam and other religions is like the difference between different puddings; not in their respective recipes, but in their taste. A dedicated idiot, a paid liar, or a cynic is free to make endless and most bizarre comparative studies of the ingredients listed in two recipes to eventually produce a proof that there is no difference between the vanilla and chocolate pudding.
But the ultimate proof is, of course, in the pudding itself.
And the pudding of Islam tastes like sh*t, smells like sh*t, sounds like sh*t and looks like sh*t to ANYONE but a Mohammedan. And if it does all that then, I think, it is safe to assume it must be sh*t. With, or without Sunnah.
kt, you are Always wrong.
'You also cannot/will not assimilate the reasons why SOME of these Muslims are behaving in such Draconian ways, preferring to simply blame religion.'
I don't blame the religion- I blame its creator, mohammed. He did it Wrong and it has been wrong ever since.
'History matters, both the distant and not so distant.'
Yes- And we all remember the 1000 years and more of Arab (most of which read: muslim) slavery, which also had one Hell of an effect on the entire planet.
You may have noticed, Christians put an end to it.
...except where muslims are Still Practicing It:
An African asks some disturbing questions of islam:
http://debate.org.uk/topics/trtracts/t12.htm
http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/1529/Slavery_today_yes_it_is_still_happening
We learned from our mistakes And Put Them Behind Us, kt. Is it too much to ask you and yours to do the same? Is it too much for You to ask them to do the same? Instead of defening it as you are doing here.(yes, I know of your objection to being counted with them).
I'm fair at chess. I prefer the old hexagon-board games. Assessing the risks and then taking them was always amusing, especially being able to consistently beat my older brother, who I readily admit is much smarter than me. (waits for the insult)
"And if it does all that then, I think, it is safe to assume it must be sh*t. With, or without Sunnah."
-- posted by thomas h.
Ouch, that's harsh.
I have a fundraising idea for the cause of anti-Dhimmitude. Cut a deal with a paper mill in Idaho or Montana to manufacture a high-end toilet paper brand called Educate Your Own Ass About Islam, with a particularly offensive Ayat or Hadith printed on each panel.
The source of the paper mill would have to be kept strictly secret, and all orders would be fulfilled from the Internet, shipments made in unmarked packages.
Fervid Islamists like KingTolerance could then launch their own counter-brand that uses biblical passages. Then we can sit back and see who's tolerant. And who's King. And what crapulous nonsense the equivalence argument is.
duh swami,
just wanted to say I dug your post about the "Lord of Matter".
"My kingdom is not of this world"
exactly.
Shaughn,
Educate Your Own Ass About Islam
There are a few of us here and we still haven't stopped laughing after reading your wonderful idea!
Really, it is an excellent one. Perhaps it is not very realistic as I can't think of a paper mill willing to run the risk of provoking the religion of peace, but it certainly is extremely entertaining to consider.
And what crapulous nonsense the equivalence argument is
Amen!
From above:
The trollish "King", predictably, like a cow in field, chews his cud unhindered:
..."Islam is merely evolving as Christianity did."
Sheik sez: Islam is revolting, but not 'evolving'...!
thomas h, Kudo's to you! I wish I was that eloquent:
"And the pudding of Islam tastes like sh*t, smells like sh*t, sounds like sh*t and looks like sh*t to ANYONE but a Mohammedan. And if it does all that then, I think, it is safe to assume it must be sh*t. With, or without Sunnah. .."
And the King Kong of utter falsehood and hypocrisy, quotes:
"How sad it is that we have enough religions to fight over, but not enough 'religion' to live in peace."
Got it, mate:
"Islamic peace" - that is, of curse!
The "peace" after we all 'revert' or better pervert to the headbangers cult!
Who is paying you for your Da'wa activities, "KIng?"
And don't forget to sheik yer- (howeveryouspellit)
It looks like Mohammed went to school on Byzantine Christianity which to him may well have appeared to be "the religion spread by the Empire of the Romans". He rearranged it to come up with Islam: the religion that spreads the Empire of the Arabs. Its wars of conquest rage to this day.
The history of wolves on earth is a history of warring packs. The history of humans is a history or warring tribes/nations. Religious boundaries tend to coincide with tribal boundaries. The conquerors impose their religion on the vanquished. Any religion that has ever been the dominant belief system of a large enough society has be caught up in this sad history. No one's hands are completely clean. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" as the Bible puts it.
All religions originate something like this: there is a prophet/mystic who is impelled to share an experience of divine reality; then there are interpreters who explain and codify the revelation; this builds up a society with the self confidence to go forth and conquer spreading the religion.
What makes Islam unique and uniquely dangerous is that all of these phases took place in the person of its founder Mohammed. For Islam Mohammed is Jesus/St. Paul/Athanasius/Constantine/Torquemada all rolled into one and congealed into the Koran/Hadith as the canonical, unchanging portrait of the perfect man.
Perhaps there were Christian warlords in the Dark Ages who were in many ways just as bad as Mohammed. Christians today can and do regard them as those compromised the Gospel for the expediency of their time. Muslims regard Mohammed as the example of the perfect man. When Christians turn to their scriptures for inspiration they encounter the God who sent his Son to die for sinners. Muslims encounter Mohammed who sent his sons out to kill infidels. Not exactly the same thing.
Hi all
I am so surprised with some of the Catholics I know, I had one tell me, (more than a year ago) Islam, at least it believes in one God, and then he adviced me to read Karen Armstrong, what a dope.
Since then I have been distributing the junk she peddles to him and to everyone I can find able to accept email in my locale, to show them all the glaring absurdities Islam and Armstrong peddle, at the minute I have sent several rebuttals to the contortions which I found in 'Muhammad'.
She seems to be able to justify even evil actions as worthy of praise.
For the time being, I will regard Hisham Mahmoud as a person of good will, even if he doesn't know that much about Christianity. In the absence of further evidence, I will let it stand there.
A fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam is that portions of the Old Testament (Ezra, Nehemiah, Daniel, Malachi, Zechariah) and all of the New Testament were forged by believers living in a state of political powerlessness. As for the violent portions of the Old Testament (and I, for the record, believe that there are legitimate uses of violence), few care to notice that Israel was warned that if they fell into the sins of the Canaanites, they would suffer the fate of the Canaanites; which is what the fall of Israel and Judah and subsequent Babylonian captivity were all about (actually, God was merciful and preserved a remnant).
Islam, however, has no way to deal with exile or powerlessness, since its founder was essentially a successful warlord.
Finally, the great gulf fixed between Islam and Christianity is that the latter is not merely a checklist of do's and don'ts whereby we buy our salvation. Christianity is the good news that God has visited and redeemed us in Jesus Christ, paying the penalty due us in his sacrificial death on the cross, and conquering death on our behalf in his resurrection from the dead. Muhammed, by contrast and by the admission of the Muslims themselves, remains dead and buried at Medina, awaiting the resurrection of all the dead at the last trumpet.
Sheik sez: Islam is revolting, but not 'evolving'...!
Exactly!
As one ex-moslem I befriended many years ago said to me “What started as death and lie can only evolve into more death and more lie. Only a madman would expect them to evolve into life and truth.”
American,
Thanks for saving me the typing. If someone in your neighborhood wants to emulate the life of Jesus there's no reason to stock up on ammunition.
There are many who want to believe that Christianity and Islam are closely similiar and can both save a person's soul. But these two faiths are clearly different. What many people in the world fail to realize is that Islam borrowed much of its philosophical tradition from the Judeo-Christian traditions and then twisted it around to form Islam.
When Muhammad was alive in the 7th century, there were communities of Christians and Jews living throughout the Middle East, including the Arabian Peninsula. The Christian community that once lived there DID Not hold sound Christian theological beliefs because they were Christian Arians and Nestorians, who were Christian heretics. Arians and Nestorians denied the divinity of Christ and often used apocraphya texts which were rejected by the the authoritative church in Rome. Sadly, all Christians who were not Arians or Nestorians were driven out of the Arabian Peninsula.
What does this mean for Islam? Well, Muhammad was around all of these heretical Arian and Nestorian Christians. These heretical Christians strongly impacted his religious views about the world. Muhammad integrated heretical Christianity into his own religious beliefs which in turn became Islam. There was no angel named Gabriel who came down from Heaven and gave him heretical views about Christianity. He got his misguided beliefs about Christ from the heretical Christians who lived around him.
What does this all mean for us today? Sadly, Muslims are still carrying around the Arian and Nestorian Christian doctrinal errors about Christ into our world and, even worse, have encapsulated these rejected Christian views into their own misguided religious faith.
For an increasing number of Islamic historians, the tradition of Mohammed being the source and explanation of the Arab Conquest, wherein Arab tribesmen on horseback emerged out of the Arabian deserts to conquer Syria, Mesopotamia, Persia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Libya and Spain in less than 80 years (636-712), stands history on its head.
They demonstrate that the story of Mohammed uniting various Arab tribes as Genghiz Khan did for the Mongols, and providing them with the religious fervor to conquer in the name of Islam, is "sacred history," rather than real history. Historian Gordon Newby explains:
The myth of an original orthodoxy from which later challengers fall away as heretics is almost always the retrospective assertion of a politically dominant group whose aim is to establish their supremacy by appeal to divine sanction.
This applies to the Arab Conquest, says al-Rawandi, because for some 200 years the Arab conquerors were a minority amongst a non-Moslem majority. For al-Rawandi, Islam is an invention for the purpose of providing a religious justification for Arab imperialism. The Conquest is the reason and explanation for Islam, not the other way around.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/24/152943.shtml
"Islam is an invention for the purpose of providing a religious justification for Arab imperialism. The Conquest is the reason and explanation for Islam, not the other way around."
The reformist dissident Egyptian Muslim, Sayyid al-Qimni has also been arguing the same thing (he's recently received death threats, and many years ago he was shot at by extremist Muslims) --
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP84705
http://people.africadatabase.org/en/profile/15999.html#profile151077
The Bottom line...There is nothing in the OT or NT that 'obligates' Christians to Jihad or anything like jihad. "All muslims are "obligated", to support and participate in jihad. If you are a muslim, you are a jihadist by definition. Unless of course you want to admit to hypocrisy and apostate yourself. Risky business in some neighborhoods...
Excellent post. Education truly is the (main) solution.
Hugh, thank very much for this article, very brave. I hope soon Saudi Arabia wouldn´t be Western´ ally, and Egypt and Pakistan either.
The Pope can´t do anything, He is only a religious leader, he say what is good and what is bad, and this is enough.
However Bush, Chirac, Blair and others, can do much more, like cutting the relationship with Saudi Arabia and change the things, destroying the radical islam and allow that Iran and Saudi Arabia collapse.
There is a problem with the claim of Islamic tolerance in the very approach of Mahmoud. If Islam is tolerant, then it cannot be only toward Christians. It has to be for everybody, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. But the Christians have the biggest and best-armed armies, so they have to be the target of this gooey we-have-so-much-in-common stuff. Just like I used to say to some of the girls years ago; or maybe some of the girls said it to me (Who remembers?).
Now, why isn't Mahmoud talking about what they have in common with Jews or what the Hebrew Bible has in common with the Quran?? If he wants to show Muslim peaceful intentions, then why doesn't he show them towards the Jews?? But I do want to help him. He could mention Sura 5:12, 20-22 of the Quran, where it says that Allah made a covenant with Israel and where Allah assigned the Holy Land to the Jews. And then there are the passages that the Jews' land is a blessed land [some translations vary] and that the Jews will return to their land as a crowd gathered out of many nations [echoing the book of Zechariah]. It's funny how shy and bashful this fellow is when it comes to the Quranic passages that agree with the Bible on Jews' rights to the Land.
Very good piece, Hugh, but the fraud of Islam is even better exposed by Ibn Warrag. Most assuredly you, and a few of the posters have read his "Why I'm not a Muslim", but I strongly suggest that you read his other books in particular "Who Really Wrote the Qur'an" and "The Quest for the Historical Muhammad" and if you have time "What the Koran Really Says".
The Qur'an is a complete fabrication, made up out of whole cloth to justify the Arab Conquest and by conquerors to put them on not just an even footing with Christianity and Judaism, but in a superior position. His books are really condensed and edited contributions from the likes of Wansborough, Cook and Crone.
One thing I will mention is that the ayats in the Surah about Mariam (Mary), as regards the impregnation of her by Gabriel, should be read in that light.. not as the Muslims obfuscate that she was a virgin.
Clear to me when reading Surah 4, that Gabriel appeared to her as a perfect man (which is what that Surah says) for one reason to copulate with her, and as the Koran says she "conceived", and that infers sexual intercourse. There is also an interesting dialogue between her and Gabriel, admittedly ambiguous, but which can easily be interpreted (as I do) as this perfect man, Gabriel, seducing her into sex, saying "it's OK,Allah said so", and of course we all know that the Koran says and the traditions reinforce that the crucifixion was faked or the death was faked, depending on which tradition one recourses to.
As regards Gabriel appearing to Mary, why would the Koran state that "he appeared to her as a perfect man", if not for the purposes of copulation. If Gabriel was going to wave his magic wand and impregnate Mary, he would not need human form and especially as a perfect man.
The disparities between Islam and Christianity are unbridgeable. We are comparing vacuum cleaners to tomatoes with this one.
First the Judeo-Christian deity is 'Yahweh' NOT al-lah. The Christian god and the Muslim deity are two vastly different entities NOT to be confused!
Second, in the Judeo-Christian Bible, something called the Ten Commandments was issued to the Jews by Yahweh (or so written in the Biblical Old Testament) one of these commandments reads "Thou shalt not commit murder" (killing that is not in self-defense).
In the Qur'an, it is written( or narrated) "after the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters everywhere they are found, besiege them, capture them,set every strategem of warfare upon them, tax them upon their conversion."
The Qur'an not only legalizes 'murder', it turns it into a legitimate political tool as can be plainly seen in this passage.
Even it we go NO FURTHER, it is plain Islam ideology DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSES Christian values. It is a complete rejection of the ethical platform Yahweh set forth namely that human life is to be held in the highest regard and that attacks upon human life are forbidden...even for ideological purposes (such as Islam).
By the ethical foundation set forth by the deity Yahweh, Islam is PURELY EVIL! There is just no other way to put it.
Islam --in addition -- permits if not outright COMMANDS-- the mutilation of the human body for ideological reasons. In the Qur'an Mahomet narrates that Muslims amputate the hands and feet of Christians at loggerheads with Muslims--and Muslims do this too--I have watched videos of Muslims doing this to people (and vomited in horror). Thieves in Islam are ordered to have their hands AMPUTATED (which we all know). Other passages demand that jihadists 'smite' the infidels 'at the neck' (cut their heads off).
In contrast, there are passages in the Old Testament explicitly outlawing mutilation of the human body, referring to this as "mayhem." Mayhem is classified as a sin in the eyes of Yahweh.
I think we need go no further.
Christianity encourages respect for human life and offers means with which to improve it.
Islam has no problem with destroying human life and degrading it viciously.
I see no comparisons.
"I strongly suggest that you read his other books in particular "Who Really Wrote the Qur'an"[sic -- "The Origins of the Koran"] and "The Quest for the Historical Muhammad" and if you have time "What the Koran Really Says."
-- from a posting above
I have.
"King: The Pope has other important monetary things to worry about, like paying the legal claims for the thousands of children molested by Catholic preists over decades. To "make things right" the Catholic church simply moved the guilty preists around while they diddled more children. Yep, the Catholic church is a global standard of ethics and religious standard! "
King where did Christ say its OK to have sex with kids?????? Please Quote the Bible verse????? Or are you jut using the sins of the followers to condem Christ?
King - I find it ironic that you use this arguement, especially when your own Islamic teachings say its OK to have sex with kids, as is practiced in many Islamic Countries. Furthermore I remember you King, agreeing that its OK to have sex with kids, simply because Mohammed did. What's wrong King, jealous that you are not a corrupt Catholic priest?