Well, I haven't killed anyone this morning...

Part-archy and mehitabel, part-Krazy Kat, part-Molly Bloom-soliloquy (if Molly Bloom were murderously demented), the murky stream of consciousness that flows in the open here must if it cannot be dried up altogether be carefully contrained within its banks, for should it spill beyond, or its volume swell, the result would be worse, and in many more ways, than what might be done by a million conceivable Katrinas.

yes hugh

but we must all be toujours gai

n'est-ce pas?

yrs
robert

Now were advertising Jodie Foster's new movie (this writer salivates for her, thereby possibly showing his bad taste), so these subhuman rantings are not totally useless (lol).

Come see, come saw. Come see me saw some heads off. It's another Friday at the mosk. Good morning.

They really need to take this hinkley character's computer away. I mean, still obsessed with jodi foster after all these years?

Infidel33: Yeah. Hinkley gave himself away. Those nuts just can't help it. The gov't should return Hinkley's gun and tell him that the people at CAIR all want to get into Jodie's pants.

Robert: That's another great hate mail for your scrapbook. It even beats being accused of spreading "Maoist polemics" and such.

Robert,

I am glad to see you can maintain a sense of humour in this.

As for the tactics of your Jodie Foster fan:

Would it be a reasonable hypothesis to suppose that those who resort to threats and insults do so because their doctrine won't stand on its own merits? Otherwise, wouldn't we see detailed scholarly refutations of your claims, all backed by the Koran, Hadith, and Sira?

And aren't those threats and insults toward disbelievers un-Islamic? Let's see.

1. Threats.

Those who learn about Allah but reject him or make jest of him will be punished severely by Allah (2:211-212). Some people openly satirized Mohammad, calling him a “mad poet,” see 37:36. Those who malign the prophet and Allah will be damned (33:57), those who malign believers will be slain wherever they are found (33:58-61).

2. Insults.

Disbelievers: are “worst of created beings” (98:6), are “miscreants” (2:99, 24:55), are the worst beasts in Allah’s sight (8:55), are “a folk without intelligence”/ “most ignorant” (8:65, 6:111), “evil” is upon them (16:27), evil (2:91, 2:99), liars/they lie (2:10, 9:42, 16:39, 16:105, 59:11), the “wrong-doers” (2:254, 5:45), on the side of the devil (Satan) and are fighting for him (4:76-77); “enemy” and “perverted” (63:4); “wicked” (80:42, 9:125); hypocrites, i.e., those who only pretend to be religious (4:61); losers who are deceived by Allah (2:6), and deceived by Satan (4:60); have a “diseased heart” (2:10, 9:125); are ill (84:20); are “guilty” for disbelieving (45:31, 83:29); deaf, dumb, and blind, and have no sense (2:171); have no sense (5:103); their fathers were unintelligent and had no knowledge or guidance (2:170, 5:104); Allah assigns them devils for protecting friends (7:27); they choose devils for protecting friends (7:30); they lead disgraced lives (22:9); “losers” (7:179); foolish and liars (7:66), liars and losers (58:18-19), false pride and schism (38:2).

(Note: The above is merely a sample. Also, there are no positive statements about disbelievers in the Koran).

So, it looks like the cyber-jihadis sending threatening and insulting emails are acting in perfect compliance with the Holy Koran. (Technically, they're supposed to offer you Islam first, but I guess that offer is essentially a threat too--an offer that can't be refused).

I know, I know, I'm misunderstanding the Koran. I can't help it; I'm a disbeliever. These passages only appear to justify threats and insults because I'm taking them out of context inappropriately. The verses got altered in the translation from Arabic to English. My Koran--which I'm not allowed to touch because as a disbeliever I am unclean--was booby-trapped by the great deceiver, Allah.

"Those nuts just can't help it. The gov't should return Hinkley's gun and tell him that the people at CAIR all want to get into Jodie's pants."

ROFL, Texan, I nearly drowned in my tea. Too, too funny!

Anyone professing Christianity--"fundamentalist", crazy or otherwise-- is bound by the beliefs that this faith contains.

Among the beliefs Christianity contains are the TEN COMMANDMENTS-- notably among them "THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT MURDER." Anyone who is a Christian is bound by this and there are NO EXCEPTIONS!!

Thus, there is nothing to fear as far as safety from anyone who is PRACTICING Christianity with any degree of sincerity as they are ideologically FORBIDDEN from becoming the mass killers Muslims far too often become.

Anyone screeching "Fundamentalist Christian crazy" hasn't a clue what they are screaming about and should be studiously IGNORED.

Pythagoras:

“Among the beliefs Christianity contains are the TEN COMMANDMENTS-- notably among them "THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT MURDER." Anyone who is a Christian is bound by this and there are NO EXCEPTIONS!!”

And if they don’t? Well they can go to church, and ask for absolution, which will be granted.

The greatest murderer in history – Hitler, died a catholic. He was not even considered to be excommunicated. So much for Christianity.

BTW. 10 commandments is Jewish “invention” not Christian as almost everything in Christianity. Even “The golden rule” in Christianity is a perverted and mistranslated Judaism.

Hitler reflects my faith, Pong, about as much as a mirror reflects Dracula.

Pong, this is totally absurd:

Hitler and the Nazis were nihilistic, totally! Nazism was a substitute for religion, in fact it was a new religion under the swastika and the Nazis mastered the art of combining religion and nationalism.

You understand nothing about Nazis and Hitler, who based their pseudo-religious cult on the 'Uebermensch', in a misrepresentation of Friedrich Nietsche.

But useless. I would be sitting here writing till tomorrow morning trying to explain that to you in vain.

I don't know where this idiocy comes from. But the Nazis were further from Christianity than the Chinese or the Eskimos in Uganda.

Pong:

I have heard this same rubbish before from people who should know better. Heaven knows where this comes from, but frankly, I couldn't care less.

But Hitler's cult of 'Uebermensch, Arians and pure Germanic race" has no connection with Christianity / Catholicism at all.

To do so would be the same as accusing chairman Mao being motivated by Confucianism, or Pol Pot murdering in the name of Gautama Buddha.

So please: Inform yourself before you sprout nonsense.

Pong:

Should you wander back onto this thread, I think Chairman Mao could give Stalin and Hitler combined a serious run for the money in the "who is responsible for the most deaths" stakes. Some estimate his score is 70 million.

pythagoras, sheik, waterdragon52, gary:

What all of those tyrants--Hitler, Mao, Stalin, etc.--had in common was a failure in moral thinking, failure in reasoning, failure for empathy of the victims, narcissism, and so on. They adhered to rigid ideologies, and were comfortable with innocents being killed. They wanted their precious ideologies to prevail, whatever the cost. One role that a revealed religion (or any other ideology which demands blind obedience) plays is to dehumanize others who do not share the ideology.

Nazism was a package deal. It contained both racist and religiously-inspired goals. Some people in the Nazi party were Christians, others were pagans, deists, etc., and still other had bizarre pseudoscientific theories about the origins of the Aryans, etc. Hitler was one of the many Christians in the party and, being the leader, had the most influence on policy.

The hatred toward the Jews was an element present among many German Christians since at least the time of Martin Luther. Hitler was not only himself a committed Catholic from boyhood to his death, but he made Christianity the official religion of the Nazi party when he came to power. The swastika he used as the party symbol was the same as the hooked cross from the Catholic monastery where he was educated as a boy. Hitler was Christian according to his public statements http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm , and now it is also clear that he was Christian in statements noted privately between 1940-1944 http://www.ffrf.org/fftoday/2002/nov02/carrier.php . He was not only ideologically opposed to atheism, but ordered that atheism be "stamped out." He considered it extremely important that children be taught religious (i.e., Christian) morality in schools (see below).

Was he a "true" Christian, or was he twisting the doctrines? Actually, many verses in the New Testament are blatantly anti-Jewish, blaming the Jews for the death of Christ, insulting the character of Jewish people, damning the Jewish people, and so on. These are all classified for your convenience at http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ . Christians should know what's in their Bible. Here are some examples:

1 Thessalonians, 2:14-2:16 “…the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them the uttermost.”

Acts, 13:45-46. "But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabus waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."

John, 19:14-15. "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caeser."

Of course, the New Testament condemns all non-Christians, many times, e.g.,

John, 15:6: “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

1 John, 2:22. “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.”

Here's some of what Hitler had to say:

"In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."
–Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

Hitler certainly had taken an extreme interpretation of the Bible, overlooking the many good parts of it. However, the fact that the bad parts were there for him to use is powerful evidence that Christianity overall is a morally flawed doctrine. That Hitler failed to see this, and failed to interpret these ancient doctrines in a responsible way, is Hitler's moral failure. It is the combination of the many corrupt elements of the doctrine, plus the failures in moral judgement on the part of Hitler, plus those moral failures of a significant part of the German population who shared his views, that are chiefly to blame.

When he came to power, Hitler had enlisted about 37% support among Germans (who were predominantly Christian). With the help of unusual events and some backroom deals, was able to get into power. Once into power, he was able to begin his imperialist military adventures and implement his persecution of the Jews. He was able to carry out his atrocities in part by publicly professing an allegiance and a personal belief in Christianty. He got enough cooperation from the German people, who were predominantly Christians, to carry out the Holocaust.

The Germans had had a whole host of prejudices against the Jews. As for the so-called racial purity aspect, this was one, but not the only factor. Many of the European Jews were as light-complexioned as the Christians, but this didn't stop them from being executed. (And some Christians are darker than some Jews). Also, Hitler made allegiances with countries where the people were, in physical appearance, the opposite of light-complexioned so-called Aryans.

I for one rejected Christianity not only for the scientific absurdity of many of its core claims, but also due to the moral atrocity of its core doctrine (e.g., all disbelievers given maximum eternal punishment for simply disbelieving or following a different religion). Passages like this one convinced me that the Bible could not be the word of a wise and fair Deity:

Hosea 13:16. “Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.” (God’s punishment to the Samarians for having a different religion).

I condemn such verses unequivocably. They are indefensible.

Hitler on the importance of religious education:

“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith…we need believing people.”
Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933.

St. Thomas Aquinas. “…the saints will rejoice in the punishment of the damned…which will fill them with joy.”

link correction:

the reference on Hitler's 1940-1944 conversations is here:

http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/2002/nov02/carrier.php

And yet for all that:

Hitler was indeed a baptized Catholic, but his rejection of the faith was profound. "My pedagogy is strict," he once explained. "I want a powerful, masterly, cruel and fearless youth... There must be nothing weak or tender about them. The freedom and dignity of the wild beast must shine from their eyes... That is how I will root out a thousand years of human domestication."

That domestication, of course, was in large part due to the influence of Christianity. Hitler was blunter still on other occasions. "It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity," he said in 1933, "because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood." His countrymen would have to choose: "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both."

Indeed, he understood all too well that Christianity, in the long run, was his enemy. "Pure Christianity — the Christianity of the catacombs — is concerned with translating the Christian doctrine into fact. It leads simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely wholehearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." Switch a few words around and you'd think you were listening to Joseph Stalin. And like Stalin, Hitler believed history was on his side: "Do you really believe the masses will ever be Christian again? Nonsense. Never again. The tale is finished... but we can hasten matters. The parsons will be made to dig their own graves."

http://www.nationalreview.com/shiflett/shiflett012102.shtml

---------

Hitler used religion in the same fashion the Ceasars of Rome did- it was a tool to control the masses.

And he still represents my faith about as much as Mugabe represents a high-tech agricultural society.

BS, Archimedes!

Bogus quotes and bogus links!

Hitler used religion for his own ends. Ask any old Nazi, he'll tell you. Some of them are still alive.

All this "Hitler- was - a catholic -stuff" or "the Nazis were Christians" is infuriating, just like the conspiracy theories for 9/11 and so much other BS floating around.

sheik yer'mami.

“I have heard this same rubbish before from people who should know better. Heaven knows where this comes from, but frankly, I couldn't care less.”

Usually it comes from reading a comment without respect to one posted it.

My point was not what Hitler was and his connection to Christianity. Archimedes has done “dirty work” for me from that point.

1.If Hitler was excommunicated by the Catholic Church, it would have made many Germans and especially Catholics who supported him think twice. Failure of the church to do that – is my point.
2. To compare Mao and Hitler is unworthy of one contributing to this site.. Mao never referred to Confucianism as a base of his ideological believes. Hitler on the other hand did referred to Christianity as his base.

Archimedes.
Thank you very much. Your comment is brilliant especially because I do not aggree with all you said.
People, contributing to this site are doing a very important job and it is good that some of us Jews, some Christians, atheists and so on. Most of us have intellectual ability well above the average (your comment demonstrates this point very well) and it seems we are getting the “massage” through.

Gary,

I have indeed followed up on your link, but this is a secondary author's opinion, not a researcher's assessment of the original source. Certainly there've been some provocative quotes in mainstream media. The original work on the OSS files in question is at http://www.camlaw.rutgers.edu/publications/law-religion/NInst3.htm (scroll down to Installment No. 1). With this type of evidence, it's first necessary to establish its reliability, and I haven't yet seen a scholarly assessment of that. I haven't had a chance to get through it all, but it is clear from several examples that the Nazis were persecuting and attempting to control all of the different Christian sects. This is consistent with Hitler's plan to replace them all and establish a single religion, based on his own interpretation of the Bible (twisted as it was), all combined with his German nationalistic tribalistic visions. This seems fairly consistent with what he described in Mein Kampf. (He had the same type of liquidation plan for all other political parties--get rid of them so only the Nazi party remains). The Nazis tried to control everything in all parts of the society; religion was no exception.

The OSS reports also suggest that, to their credit, the various Christian groups that were being harrassed by Hitler's "Reich Ministry for Ecclestiastical Affairs," and by the Hitler Youth, did put up some resistance.

Did Hitler want to destroy Christianity? That depends on the definition of Christianity. The researcher who re-examined the Table Talk materials tells me that one has to be very careful when Hitler says something like he wants to destroy Christianity. Hitler had his own twisted vision of the Bible, with Jesus as the "Aryan" founder, the Jews as the arch-villain, etc. Hitler characterized himself as a messiah-like figure assigned to do God's work. He wanted to establish a "German Faith" and bring all the Christian sects in line with this one maniacal vision.

Regarding his distinction between "German"
versus "Christian": My understanding is that "German" in the context of that type of statement meant a member of his unified religious-racial-nationalistic "faith," whereas "Christian" probably referred to the existing sect (e.g., Catholic, Lutheran, etc.). Hitler's version was based on his interpretation of the Bible, though he thought his version was more pure than the existing sects. However, confusion can arise over this issue because in other contexts, he didn't make this distinction at all and simply called himself and his party Christian. I think there's also a lot of confusion over this whole issue, frankly, because Hitler's own ideas weren't that consistent. (He was a mad-man, after all).

I agree his religion is far removed from the Christianity that I'm familiar with through my own experience and that of the people I know. Anyone who reads the Gospels knows that there is an overall theme of compassion there that just isn't there in ideologies like Islam. And the comparsion between Jesus and Mohammad makes the latter look like nothing but a thug. Jesus produced the Sermon on the Mount; Mohammad produced a whole lot of dead bodies. Nevertheless, there are still those problems in the Bible that just can't be overlooked.

Sheik,
1. I don't believe the 9/11 conspiracy theories. The claim that Hitler was Christian is not in the same category as those theories.

2. Publicly, he was Catholic, and generally a Christian. That's what the public records show. There's tons of evidence for that.

3. Of course he used religion for his own ends! Apparently he actually believed some of it too, twisted though his own version may have been. And lots of people joined him--not all, but lots did join him.

4. Neither the links or the quotes are bogus. If you don't like the skeptic's site, look at some other on-line Bible for Biblical quotes.
Do you agree with the sentiments expressed in the above Biblical quotes, or do you disagree? The core doctrine of Christianity is the Bible, esp. the New Testament. Take a close look at it. I don't know about you, but I find those Biblical quotes downright disturbing!

5. Here's another link that summarizes even more evidence that supports a publicly Christian Hitler:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

Gary.
I am sure that you are sincere and your understanding of faith is different from what Hitler understood. I have no problem with that. The problems is “Faith” because one can not have faith and reason at the same time. They are incompatible.
We see Islam as a danger to the world and to win this war from position of faith is impossible. Faith is common to Christianity and Islam. One can argue endlessly which faith is better.

Pong,

Thanks. The message definitely got through for me on 7/7, when the media were so foolish as to parade in front of me the "religion of peace mantra" for the nth time--the straw that broke the camel's back.

Pong, Archimedes~ Thanks. That, between the three of us, is in my Op Close to the most reasonable view *g*